Backyard Professor: Bill Reel on Reason & Mormon Apologetics 157
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2024
- Bill had a conversation a week ago with Apologist Jacob Hansen, wherein the discussion got very lop-sided, and Reel was bowlderized and never got a word in edge wise or sledge wise. I here have him giving his actual side of things.
![Mormon Doctor Abuse Allegations [The Mormon Newscast: 037]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8VI1ybeGQKA/mqdefault.jpg)
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The way this wrapped up as a lesson about wood tools, was very powerful and well done! I'm bookmarking this one!
By the way Kerry and Bill. I appreciate your candor and sincerity. If any religionists have the truth on their side I want to hear it.
Thank you, that means a lot to us. We always try to share quality information
this was a great episode love it
Thanks, we had a lot of fun doing it
@@TheBackyardProfessor BIBLE is the only book which:
heals, guides, judge, warns, helps.
Bible guides souls out from Babylon.
Bible helps to let go from Babylonian entertainments.
Bible helps us see, what has value.
Bible fills souls with knowledge, with peace.
Bible clears out future, for both, for the saved and for the lost.
Bible gives us stories from which to learn, and through which GOD warns us, the generations lived after.
Don+t stay muslim, catholic, Hindu, new ager, atheists, ignorant, satanic, Mormons,
dont be a thief and a robber.
John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Religions are masonic lies, false ways into heaven which masons have made.
Follow not nor believe masons, who give you lies after lies.
Seek out CHRIST, follow HIM and leave lies behind and your old life in the BABYLON:
Revelation 17:2
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Revelation 18:3
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Joseph Smith's concepts of "Apostacy" and "Restoration" are problematic, because there was not a specific segment of time in the 1st century CE where a unified, monolithic, canonized "Church" existed in a form which would need "restoration" 2,000 years later. Christianity slowly evolved from a small group of Jews who happened to accept Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah, who continued to attend synagogue (in the 30's CE), to a group that had completely segregated itself from Judaism a few decades later. It was a gradual, continuous process.
The question then becomes: at what specific time (or even decade) can we point to and say that Christianity had not yet delineated from the pure, true "Christian Church", and then at what point can we say that it was no longer that same organization?
Was it in the 30's CE when when Peter's sect was requiring Jewish conversion first? When men were required to get circumcised? When adherents continued to follow the Law of Moses, eat Kosher, and refused to associate with Gentiles?
Or was it in the 50's CE when Paul started preaching a non-Petrine Christianity? Was it when Paul said men DIDN'T have to be circumcised, that the Law had been fulfilled, that Kosher was done, and that both Jews and Gentiles could associate with each other?
Or was it when Paul started teaching that women had to keep quiet, keep their faces covered in church, and be submissive to their husbands? Was it when Paul started teaching that the Lord would be returning any day now, so don't get married (unless you couldn't prevent yourself from sinning)?
Or was the apostasy in the 60's CE, after both Peter and Paul had died, but the Gospels had not yet been written?
Or was it when the Gospels themselves were written (70 CE to 100 CE), contradicting-and even disagreeing with each other-in significant ways? (e.g. Matthew rebutting Mark's Pauline Christianity)
Or was it when people pretending to be Paul forged letters in his name (2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus), yet these epistles were still accepted as scripture?
At what specific cross-section of time was Christ’s church in its complete, unadulterated configuration with all the necessary tenets and rituals intact, and then at what point had it fallen into a distinguishable apostasy?
excellent points! James Dunn goes through this in his book "Unity and Diversity in the New Testament" pp, 114-124.... there is an evolution to the church which did not start as a church with priesthood and offices as Mormonism teaches. At least not according to the biblical scholarship.
Good points! Even more fundamental is the question of why an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent "God" would allow a massive apostasy to occur and continue for nearly 2,000 years. What is accomplished? I've asked believers and usually all they can say in response is that it's "part of the plan" (completely ignoring the fact that there's no reason to believe that there is a plan, let alone believe that a 2,000-year interruption of the availability of truths and ordinances and priesthood necessary for "salvation" would be part of any coherent "plan").
1. Faith causes the believer to denigrate or deny science.
2. Faith causes the believer to think objective evidence is not needed to believe.
3.Faith causes the believer to deny the need to think exclusively in terms of the probabilities.
4. Faith causes the believer to accept private subjective experiences over the objective evidence.
5. Faith causes the believer to think faith has an equal or better method for arriving at the truth than scientifically based reasoning. From John Loftus "Unapologetic: Why Philosophy of Religion Must End"
Around 01:43:00 Jacob claims that we don't accept the presuppositions that Bill agreed to accept for the convo, except that we believed them when we learned about the truth. So, this is simply false. I demonstrated Mormonism before Christianity so this point is nothing but a destraction.
It's all deflection, convoluted tangential arguments and unrelated issues. In a debate the judges would be subtracting as fast as possible - appeal to belief (most Mormons think Jesus created a church hierarchy therefore it is true), presentism (modern ideas projected to the past), false equivalence (NT is true ergo BOM is true), Kettle logic (unrelated arguments support a position - the church is true because of personal experience and alleged history). Yes, a zillion years ago I debated.
The LDS church just bought an Amazon Warehouse for 89M... Thoughts? Chasing more Mammon?
The Church needs to invest mo money, mo money - the temple-building gig isn't really revenue-generating - especially now, with so many defecting tithe payers ... Jus sayn'
I wonder if that's even a good "investment" per se. I'm starting to get the feeling that there's a kind of "big club" arrangement going on where the "Church" (actually a business selling religious products) can stay in business (e.g. get small fines for flagrant violations that come to the public's attention, instead of being hammered by the media and regulatory agencies at all levels), just so long as they keep "investing" their loot in ways that serve the interests of the other big club members, such as stocks, bonds, real property, etc. that the other club members need to unload. I imagine that if the church leader ever do withdraw their massive investment funds from those kinds of investments in order to actually do genuine charity (emphasis on "genuine") and spend the money on empowering and enriching the lives of the members and local communities and commoners...that's when you'll see the church getting into some really big trouble and slaps on the wrist will be a pleasant memory replaced by much more unpleasant scrutiny and punishments.
Loved seeing you guys address Jacob Hansen and look into what he's saying. So much bad faith argumentation, ignorance, faux-philosophy, and arrogance all in one spot! I've been following Bill doing these with him and I commend his patience for it lol.
I'm not trying to be overly mean to him or anything but there's just so much to critique with him. And that Facebook group he created is wildly toxic and right wing.
54:50 the Maxwell institute is saying that the church today within the LDS paradigm does not match the early Christian Church, and so we need to redefine the word Church.
Ah thanks, I need to get that and read it
Yes what is the link to that article?
Blake Ostler sent this to me when I commented on a stream put on by Jacob Hansen:
"Blake Ostler
11 hours ago (edited)
Because: (1) I have never been invited; (2) I was informed that both were afraid to ask because I am a lawyer who doesn’t back down. Take what I say seriously only if it is well reasoned and/or backed by reliable evidence."
Wow "he has never been invited on "Mormon Discussions"????? He sounds like he is ready with the evidence! The whole truth and nothing but the truth! Exciting!
I remember Bill Reel had an episode with Blake Ostler back in the day. I'm not sure if that was back when Bill was more of a believer or not though. Time to send him another invite!
Please interview Jacob’s brother Forest. He is so much more interesting. I can’t listen to Jacob. I won’t watch anything with him in it. I listened to this because Jacob was edited down to tiny sound bites. I have a lot of time for Forest.
Thanks!
I agree much more with Forest too but I still value listening to Jacob’s opinions, as painful as it is sometimes. I’ve found that I learn much more by engaging the difficult claims.
The Jews see the NT like Protestants see the BofM 😂 1:02:34
BYP, I am very disappointed in you: you actually allowed Bill to talk, and he just makes too much sense!
No matter how solid a house of cards looks, its structure must always fear the whims of a rotating fan might reveal its fragility.
Lol! I know right? Who let that man talk?!? He is nothing short of inspiring.
Did Bill publish the lists he referenced? I want those lists!!!!! Amazing
Yes, let me look to see where they are
@@TheBackyardProfessor you’re the best!
The CogDis that apologists must feel now that the church finally admits that Joseph actually did practice polygamy. Jacob is a tool of Smythology. How can such a smart person believe something so dumb?
28:15 the interesting point to me here is that Jacob wants to move from a testable proposition to something that is untestable (so far as we know). We can test detailed propositions, like whether Joseph Smith knew Egyptian or could translate, but we can’t test and come to a knowledge of God in any sense that reasonable people with different starting points can agree on. I think he wants to say that if your belief in this God is strong enough then you can ignore evidence that seems to show that Joseph Smith wasn’t what he said he was.
We should all chip in and get Jacob a Mormon Discussions branded leotard. His mental gymnastics are good but he needs more training. Maybe he should spend less time with Rod, Hannah, Kwaku, and Cardon.
As a teacher I agree that public school teaches subjects inefficiently. One thing that seems harder to do in a home school environment is specialty classes like pottery or woodworking otherwise I think it is a great education model for many people. There are some that do better in a traditional setting but I wouldn't say it would be a majority.
When Jacob says “K?” 😂
Time-stamp?
1:39:26 DJ Backyard Professor Dubstep Jam
There are serious issues with the conclusions we come to regarding Joseph Smith by examining the Joseph Smith papers. There is clear evidence of alterations to numerous documents after Joseph Smiths death. Rob Farthingham does a good job imo of showing that much framing occured (and some of us know how well some can frame). For instance , if we find a letter of the prophet woooing a young lady, our first object is to validate the letter and its surrounding circumstances. What we should not do is use the church's stance as an authority on the validity of the letter. We should examine opposing views on any documents that frame Joseph in a light that may support men who are motivated to abuse the principles that he taught. Its easy to imagine a scenario where leadership, highly motivated by normal male motives, would alter documents to justify their abuse. Its not as simple as...did he practice polygamy is it? Did he abuse the principle and is his charactor clearly malignant. Rob's research shows very credible evidence of massive revisions and alterations in documents as well as contrivances, including very plausible motives for doing so. I believe Joseph brought up the topic of polygamy (believe it or not there can be a form of it that a woman chooses ) and his leaders slowly fell to the urge to use it and justify it for their own ends by creating evidence for their own motives. imho
I hope you watch Wednesday night
Mormonism live is going through the documentary evidence on if Joseph did or didn't practice polygamy on June 7. It should be really good quality!
I have to remind myself this whole thing is a process and value the process. Indeed i will. Thank you. I hope you critically investigate the opposing side regarding the validity of the source material used (not the from but the quality, just because the church accepts a thing does not mean its authoritative-logical fallacy). Thank you for your hard work. Rob Farthingham will show you in a very short time the weakness of the documents. An example is section 132..very dubious history. Thanks again for your hard work (another one is "the happiness letter".) Peace.
I have an open invite to Bill or RFM or the backyard professor on any of the following.
But none have taken me up on it.
---
Topics:
“Is it reasonable to believe in God?”
“How can we know what’s true?”
“Did Jesus Form A Church?”
“Is Mormonism consistent with the Jesus of the New Testament?”
“Is Mormonism harmful?”
“What is the basis of moral obligation?”
“What should guide how we live out lives?”
“Where did western society get its values?”
“Does Christianity make the world better?”
- Opening statements - 15 minutes each
- Rebuttals 10 minutes each
- Cross ex 10 minutes each
- Closing statements 12 minutes each
I’m sorry your ego is getting bumped into. I trying to help people to sense the magnitude of the mess and help them to make new choices if that’s what they would do if they knew. You are just an opportunity to reach more people who are ready to wake up. But for you it’s games and distractions. I seem to remember I offered you a chance to get back to balance but your character is struggling to shine and you declined. And Now for the umpteen time you run around making chicken noises claiming victory. Slow down regroup. There’s still time to redeem yourself. Take a breath. 3d chess is a complicated game.
Hmmm.... 47 minutes for a person to make a presentation on a topic such as "whether it is reasonable to believe in God." Less time than a typical 50-minute undergraduate college class lecture. For starters, from the perspective of a non-believer in Mormonism there are so many threshold questions that first need to be addressed and stipulated to before any kind of rational "debate" could even occur. The question of whether it is "reasonable to believe in God" (capital "G") already assumes a particular god (i.e. the one associated with the Bible). But is it the God of the Old Testament or the God of the New Testament? Then you have to go through the multiple versions of that "God" in each case. Ultimately, I assume you mean the Mormon version of "God" which also has multiple versions to contend with (oddly enough including a Mormon prophet's doctrinal assertion that the Mormon "God" is Adam (of Garden fame). I totally understand Bill's reluctance to get sucked into a pointless "debate" game, where nothing is really accomplished or can be accomplished, as opposed to keeping an open dialogue going, where reason, facts, identification of logical fallacies, etc. have space and time suitable to the task of conducting careful and thorough analysis.
Your brain is only logical to you. Confirmation bias based upon a wannabe religion you were born and indoctrinated into, is clouding your judgment.
Church Is Not True
Church doesn't need to be true for Joseph to be a prophet. And church stances on its own history need not be any anchor to Joseph Smith's credibility imho
Except that position dismisses the mounds of evidence against Joseph. Tune in Wednesday
@@peterhook2258 You must be smoking some good drugs, or just stupid.
@@peterhook2258 The actual world that we live in does not have clear evidence a prophet is even a real thing. Prophecies are always vague and no different than a psychic reading.
@@MormonDiscussion Can't wait
1:38:20 If myth is used for promoting faith, is it possible that the afterlife is myth as well? God wants you to think he can do something but only in theory. Show yourself un-mythologically, God! Or else I have no reason to be convinced that you can resurrect me and give me eternal life.
It sounds like it’s made up otherwise.
Well, it's useful to remember that literally everything a person thinks they know about "god" was not told to them by god. It's just stuff that other people say. Some of them make a lot of money pretending that they get messages from an invisible supreme and all-powerful being. It's a very old business, just as old as, and much more dishonest than, that other "oldest profession".
@@TEAM__POSEID0N yes, seems misguided for anyone to say they know how to use your money better than you. Do your research and don’t be lazy with where your resources go.
"So if you don't believe in secret handshakes and passwords, the power of the priesthood keys, God speaking to the 8 billion inhabitants on planet earth thru dallin O. and russell nelson, and that angels have two pairs of wings -- Then of course mormonism is absurd. You're missing the most obvious truths of the universe Mr. Reel. Now get on board and populate yourself some worlds without end!" love jacob's sound reasoning and ironclad logic...........
Possibly the most absurd thing created by a man…and yet seemingly intelligent people will believe…very absurd.