Equal opportunity does not mean equal ability. If you have a 5 and a 10 year old compete at the same standard, you won’t have equal outcome. Equal opportunity does not mean equal ability/foundation.
Sounds like the kid who strongly disagrees has been 'systematically' brainwashed into believing the bigotry of low expectations is not only acceptable but just.
And then he lied about being treated unfairly by Peter because he's the lone liberal speaking truth to all this systemic power. A gross little propaganda-dispenser with no real understanding of the systems of power he whines about, ignoring the class-based root causes of oppression while essentializing a social construct (race).
@@FungusMossGnosis It wasn't a lie but it was whining. Anyone who watches these videos by Peter knows that he does a good job asking both sides the question "what would it take for you to move one line over" for every possible direction but in this case Peter hadn't gotten to it yet or forgot to ask him, and the guy was overly defensive about "logic and reason" somehow being anti-liberal.
Peter Boghossian is doing something here that NOBODY else is doing. He is having humane, rational and kind discussions with people who have genuine disagreements. If we could all do this more in our daily lives, we could save our politics.
People like this kid think they are correct by default. He said himself, nothing could change his mind, while the other side said they were open to changing their minds With the right evidence. They are the true liberals. The kid isn’t.
Simply put, you can't stop racism by being racist. Positive discrimination based on a certain skin colour means negative discrimination of other skin colours. University admissions should be based on merit and nothing else.
@@spledgball This is what the whtie guy on the right was arguing for, look at each individual, their parents income etc and use that instead of a shitty heuristic like race, because like one of the questioners mentioned there are some poor af white people for example as well.
@@spledgball Definitely. My friend who has PTSD and therefore finds it difficult to keep her life in order too, deserves assistance. I'm in the UK but that's exactly what happened. She is studying microbiology and crushing it. I know that's not poor exactly, but the result is similar enough to be the same.
Okay, but how do you account for the fact that most of the US population is white, and the majority of people living in poverty are people of color? Impoverished living significantly lowers your opportunity for education and your ability to achieve said merit. If and only if everyone starts with equal footing, then education should be based solely on merit.
"I demand that the system fix itself because I have the lowest opinion about POC and therefore demand they be treated differently. Also, no, I won't give up my own college acceptance because I earned it."
Thomas Sowell has written books about this....affirmative Action mismatches black students with Universities. There were more black University students doing better in the 1960's than today. The average SAT score of the black population of Universities is significantly lower than other racial groups because of the affirmative Action policy. This has resulted in blacks dropping out at higher rates and ending up in the lower 50% of their class. A black student who would be capable of succeeding at getting a medical degree at UCLA will flunk out of Harvard usually chasing a critical theory of education.
@@TangieTown81 "The average SAT score of the black population of Universities is significantly lower than other racial groups because of the affirmative Action policy." It was way lower before affirmative action and well as after affirmative action. I think they blame it on the questions.
Strongly agree, I was born in Iran, technically would be considered a minority, although I have never felt that way. Regardless, if I got a position at a school or job and they told me "hey, we accepted you because we needed some diversity and to help you feel less oppressed", I would say see you later, my race should have nothing to do with your decision of accepting me, it should be based mainly on academics, work ethic, and character. I have worked hard to build those 3 characteristics, it would be a shame for all that to be put aside and be hired because I am considered a minority. That would be doing a disservice to me.
i have question can i ask what group of minority you are in iran ? and Is iran like US a race driven society like what we see now in US or people just dont care what race you are?
@@magic-m5489 Oh I don't live in Iran anymore, I live in Canada. I meant I am technically a minority here in Canada because I'm Iranian. And in Iran it's more driven based on religion, not race.
@@vichenzadoorian7551 Most immigrants want to assimilate and not be singled out. If you are in Toronto, Im not sure how much longer you will be a minority. Its turning into little Tehran like Los Angeles.
He nearly broke me when he said "there's no equality of opportunity without equality of outcome", I was like "waitaminute… how does that work ?". But then I came back to my senses =p
@@lonewaer Yep, his body language seized up. Shoulders lifted, arms crossed, eyes darting, difficulty controlling breathing resulting in spastic speech and mannerisms. He was in fight or flight most of the time. What's most interesting about this is it indicates at least some part of him is aware of his derangement.
Check out The Hidden Dangers of Affirmative Action | Thomas Sowell at Sowell Explains How would you feel if your lawyer looked like Pamela Anderson or Dolly Parton? Would you believe they graduated at the top of their class because of their brains or because they had special talents? Would you trust a minority race doctor if you knew that they received better grades just because theyre a minority?
@@skanda1832 Exactly i find all the liberals somehow always go in this fight or flight super hyper anxious state that makes it ever harder to view their point seriously 🤦🏽♂️
My brother and I are a great example of the differences in equality of outcome. We both had the opportunity to attend the same schools and our parents strongly encouraged us to succeed. He has a disposition that drove him to advanced mathematics and I have a disposition that drove me to working with physical things and little patience for school. He attained an advanced degree in statistics and a position in the department of health. I work with a product in passionate about and get to fix things. He makes significantly more money than I do, but I would say that we are both equally happy doing what we are doing. It just seems that people are willing to pay more for his skill set than for mine at this point in our careers.
That's a really pernicious thing about our society I wish we could fix. Economics under capitalism is crazy and this is a huge discussion - I might bring this topic up in the SE discord haha
@Tatrer - Wish you could have been in the video talking some Reality! There is no way on earth that we will have Equal Outcomes unless...it is forced upon us, including mandating equal pay for every job regardless of effort, competence, education/apprenticeship. So? A janitor makes as much as a doctor as much as a burger flipper as a basketball player. As much as I don't like the HUGE disparities in income between low-skilled to high-skilled professions, gotta admit that "letting the Market decide" is the fairest and most just thing we got. And as Milton Friedman said, Capitalism WITH morality. Throw in some Jordan Peterson speaking about how we will always have corruption, but to rid ourselves of it as best we can.
@@MarkHWillson Capitalism and pricing helps us allocate resources as best as we can. So, the guy that works with products makes less money because 1.) society doesn’t value that product as much as the other product 2.) more people can do that product job. That’s all. The pricing mechanic is crazy complicated because it takes literally millions of factors.
@@thorsummoner Pretty much agree that it's the best system so far but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. There are a number of factors I think are important that your comment is not taking into account, particularly around transparency of information, education levels, and differences between fields of work. Obviously, however, I don't expect a dissertation in the form of a TH-cam comment, haha. We probably agree on most things if we hashed it out, but I'm not particularly interested in doing so right now. I'll start a topic in the SE discord sometime soon if you're interested in continuing the discussion. Cheers
As soon as the strongly disagree guy started saying "systematically" repeatedly, I knew we weren't going to hear anything but trained script from him. The only way people are openly discriminated against on a systemic level is the very thing he defends.
Does this guy know who runs the admissions department in colleges and universities? He's calling them "systemically racist". Progressivism will always pit itself against its own mechanisms. It's a ideology, not a philosophy.
lol yea he doesn't know, I think in this video the guy said he thought professors were handling the admissions process... most higher ed institutions don't do that though. Pretty sure he was just shooting from the hip at certain points lol
That guy’s a useful idiot. I hope he learns to redirect and govern his passions, or they will be his undoing. (The guy located appropriately on the far left of the viewer’s screen.)
@@knighthonor44, my man, that's a fair point you make. That said, you have to ask WHERE this discrimination was done, and by WHOM? It was perpetrated and condoned by the very same Democrat Party that exists today. In the mid 60s, they realized Americans no longer agreed with these polices. Instead they embraced black folks and claimed to become their champion. Democrats have always run universities and colleges. Nothing has changed except the methods they use. The result is the same: obtaining and perpetuating poltical power. They'll use anyone they can to get it. They'll even import their next generation of voters if they have to (check the Southern Border).
@@knighthonor44 Well historically progressives use to support sterilizing poor minority women and would do so without their knowledge. It was happening in the 70s and was university supported.
Ya that kid didn't have a clue where he was goin whenever he opened his mouth... he sure sounded like a complete idiot from beginning to end here, maybe he's a math wiz? Otherwise hes pretty much just a useless boob when it comes to contributing positively to society 😕
After listening to the Strongly Disagree guy I’ve moved to as far into the Strongly Agree side as possible. Platitudes and racism aren’t convincing at all.
@@HladniSjeverniVjetar you should watch his interview with Project Veritas when they visited Dartmouth from 3 months ago lmfao seems like he didn't learn anything there either.
@@KnightHawk1990 Wow, dude is frothing at his mouth borderline....specially when the black dude comes talking with him and instantly dismisses him as if he simply there as a token....well nothing more to expect.
@@Kevinschart that he's so poor at proving his point, juxtaposed with the opposing view providing multiple strong points is implied here to a certain extent. so your summary is somewhat inaccurate.
About 15 years ago I remember conversations like this at my super liberal university. I remember the race theory lecturer who was indigenous talking about atrocities being committed because of human nature and cultural influences rather than one skin colour being more violent than another.
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Considerations based on race should be avoided for all purposes, barring racist purposes.
The only situation where considering someone's race it valid is in acting. Example: If you want an actor to play the role of former emperor Hirohito, you don't want a black or a white person for that role.
I think the last questioner hit the point that the strongly agree gentlemen should have: If minorities are subject to poverty due to historical or current racist systems, you could simply base admissions on people’s economic status rather than race. This would solve the issue of underprivileged families having lesser opportunity while being race-agnostic. If minorities are the ones who are more economically underprivileged, then they will benefit in that proportion.
Agree. That is my opinion as well. But how would they reply? Because I'm sure there must be some sort of reply (even if it is a falacious one) to the economically based quotas in admission to universities... but I'm not aware of it and would not be able to argument against my own position on this matter.
I agree - but he immediately insisted that while this might be something to think about, there were SO MANY other slings and arrows the racial minorities had to endure that others did not that there MUST be some way to adjust for that. I'd love to see his head explode if you asked him if that applies to the Asians, who often come as refugees with no money, are discriminated against, harassed and sometimes even killed because of their race - often by the same POC he wants to help, yet go on in general to achieve despite their circumstances.
This is a textbook example of an ideologue. The person on the strongly disagree seems like a genuinely good-hearted and nice person, but will never concede on his beliefs, even when proven that those beliefs might be flawed or no longer valid. Great discussion nonetheless!
He didn’t even understand his own position well enough to give a coherent explanation. That’s not his fault the ideology is nonsense but it is his fault for hitching himself to it without understanding it. You could tell in his body language that he was not comfortable with his own thoughts.
Previous bad policy was to base decisions on race, and yet there are those that believe we need to use the same types of policies moving forward. Trying to fix past racism with current and future racism will only continue to tear society further apart.
Peter needs to start asking the Liberals that hold that 'Equality of Outcome' mindset, if the student FEELS that People of Color didn't have the same opportunities that that Student did, why don't they give up their slot in that College to a Person of Color. Bet that the student would all of the sudden say "I earned my spot in this College"...i.e. not willing to put their Money where their Mouth is!!
@@kwamebushman606 Depends on the person I am trading places with. I would trade places with a black person who is similarly educated as me. The blackness would be an extra bonus in these days of affirmative action.
It was interesting to see the behaviors of the two who agreed with each other. They both dressed the same way, and almost spoke the same. What's also striking is how the brown guy will yield to the white guy.
@@jpnewman1688 “The brown guy will yield to the white guy” How so? He moved to the strongly disagree first. Are you sure you’re not reading into things that don’t exist?
@@jpnewman1688 These are two individuals. Two! That is a pathetic sample size. Its about as good as zero. There's nothing noteworthy about "the brown guy will yield to the white guy" except your own bias to look for there to be racial differences where it is not relevant.
I see myself as equally capable as any white person, and I want any job I get to be solely based on my skill, ability, work ethic and character. I'm not actually achieving anything by being given a job just for being a POC. Likewise, I don't have any difficulty getting a government ID, and I don't know anyone who doesn't get one at 18 to get cigarettes, or before they turn 21. Anyone who believes race should play a role in hiring is practicing maternalistic racism, aka the soft bigotry of low expectations. This is why the left treats us like we have "special needs".
Exactly...the ID thing is the biggest insult of all to me....I just can't comprehend how the left acts like POC are too dumb and poor to get an ID. I live in Virginia, and we had FREE voter ID, anyone that wanted one could have one...it was always this way. Then, 2020 came around and the left controlled government got rid of voter ID completely, in the name of "POC can't get IDs". When I went to vote it was posted outside the ballot place no ID needed....the whole point of it was to allow mail in ballots that didn't need to be verified, and they were using POC as a tool to push this in. As a former left voter, I finally woke up to the nonsense of them treating POC like invalid children. Ridiculous, they all have ID and many are plenty skilled to get jobs without affirmative action.
💯! In the late 80s/early 90s the institution called education said that the standardized testing of students was unfair to black students because of a language barrier. The term ebonics was introduced. (From 1990 to 1992 I was earning and taking courses in Elementary Education.) I was told that because of this language "barrier" and the examples used in the testing (inner city black students, apparently, couldn't grasp the concept, for example, of life on a farm or suburban life) black students couldn't understand because of their "language." I was literally stunned. To me, the black children that they were referencing spoke street slang that all races used in these neighborhoods. They assumed that black children's brains were incapable of being challenged and unable to learn! When I did teach I taught with the assumption that if a child has a brain (with the exception of the mentally handicapped) that child could learn and it was MY job to teach them. It was my job to teach children by any means necessary in order for them to understand and learn. Affirmative action sets up minority kids for failure, especially if they don't have the grades. I said it then and I'll say it now: show me a parent who is actively interested in their child's education and I'll show you a kid who is going to succeed.
I couldn’t disagree more with this statement. Your confidence in yourself or pride doesn’t take away from the fact that POC have been adversely affected by past and current discrimination. The past plays a huge part in everyone’s lives. For example, a child coming from a two parent home is more likely to do better by numerous studies. Also, a child from a two parent home is more likely to create a two parent home as well. So just because a child today isn’t experiencing the same levels of discrimination their parents or grandparents received, doesn’t take away from the fact that they are directly affected by the discrimination of the past. Most people stay within the class they are born into. So if a child’s parent was put into a situation due to race, where he/she was not able to make a good income, go to college, or marry… that child does not have the same opportunities another has directly because of race. For example, only 4% of Ivy League students come from poor households. That directly shows you how the past affects the present. If you look at marriage statistics, almost half of all Black people are not married. And that is not due to culture, but 1000% because of the past and present. Also, for an analogy, if America was one big Monopoly board… that would be like letting certain people get multiple turns around the board first. Then after all the property is purchased, POC gain access to play and have to start from the beginning with no help. The “certain people” have the majority of the property and understanding of how the game is played. With your mindset, that would be like the certain people who got to go first saying “Hey I did it! Why can’t you??”
I really think we need equal outcomes for all the different eye colors people can have. Let's focus on arguing and dividing over this issue, but most importantly let's definitely not produce anything of value. And let's see where we end up in a few decades.
It has been awesome watching this channel grow. I always hoped Peter would start getting "something" involving youtube channel creation. I think he has found himself a wonderful niche. I hope this channel continues to grow and does well for him.
The fact that ALL races are welcome to apply for a college or for a job within a system is equal opportunity. They're all considered. That doesn't mean the outcome will be equal amongst race, gender, religion etc. If equal outcome is the goal instead of equal opportunity then I disagree with that fundamentally because it's problematic for more than one reason.
Exactly, it is like insisting that in a running match, the only way we know that it is fair would be if everyone crossed the finish line at the same time!!! Where as equal opportunity just means that everyone is allowed to participate in the race, everyone starts from the same line and that no-one can cheat, that’s it, we should not expect for everyone to finish at the same time, that would be idiotic
@@SherriSLC a spot could be taken by someone who didn't work as hard and is in a higher economic status but because of there race they were given a spot...
That guy had the best logic I've ever heard... "If you make the playing field equal, it won't account for the fact that the playing field isn't equal."
"There's no equality of opportunity without equality of outcome." So we're just going to pretend that there is no such thing as differences in preferences or aptitude?? Given perfectly equal opportunities, people will still make choices that do not result in perfect distribution of outcomes (e.g. there will be more female teachers, and more male fishermen).
They're literally the opposite. You can only have one of the two. To achieve the second you have to dispense with the first, and if you have the first you will almost never have the second.
Imagine a philosophical belief where people do not make choices. Everything has been determined. Then imagine applying any form of logic to that belief.
Equality of outcomes always sounds strange, what if there are just not enough people of a specific demographic interested in that subject? I can almost imagine a situation where you have a course which doesnt have enough of a particular demographic so the university has to drive around and coheres people of that demographic and force them to study that subject
Dude it gets even worse. Let’s say they don’t break it down by the hundreds of little oppressed groups and just stick to race and sex. This means from top to bottom every job or system needs to be 50% female. This would include homelessness, brick layers, prison. Etc. The NBA could only have 13% black athletes etc. This would mean you would not be allowed to quit your job unless someone else from your group died or also wanted to move. Or maybe they would have to kill a certain number of people to keep the equity if a replacement could not be found. Then you have to decide who gets the air conditioning job vs the coal miner. Because that is the only way you can truly have equality of outcome. It is even worst then an Orwellian dystopia.
As a Korean American growing up in small town New Hampshire during a time when affirmative action and race played a large role in every aspect of my life. Having a White name was beneficial but when it came time for any in-person interview, the looks of surprise and the treatment I received was annoyingly racist. I crossed one prestigious university off my list for the simple reason that in so many words, it became clear that I was only a desirable attendee because of my race and how it would add diversity to the student body making the school look good. The benefit incurred was not really for me and my future, but theirs as an institution. I didn't want to be a poster child for their marketing and promotion of racial diversity. A representative called my house every day for six months trying to convince me to attend. The school that I did end up going to offered me multiple scholarships based upon my high school academic achievements and performance. They did not mention my race at all. The school was not prestigious, far from being ivy league. It was a small state college but the affirmation of my efforts and academic achievements made them the clear choice over the prestigious one and others. I was seen and treated as human being who had worked very hard and earned the admission, rather than a number to add to a chart measuring the diversity of the schools own racial demographic. Some thought I was crazy and foolish to not take advantage of my race to attend the more prestigious school but I found the focus on my race to be insulting and disingenuous. My academic achievements and accomplishments seemed meaningless and unimportant, to the one that focused on my race. I felt like all my efforts and the time I had spent was completely marginalized. I know others who unapologetically played the race card and took every opportunity. I don't think badly of them for making that choice. I didn't and don't want to be used or have special consideration given because of how I look. I wanted and still want to be treated equally without my race being involved. Continuing admissions where race is a consideration merely serves to perpetuate racism. Affirmative action is not needed if people within a society stop putting it on the list. As for the systemic racism and other inequalities that give students unfair advantages and disadvantages being considered as admissions considerations, like class and whatnot, I don't think these are appropriate either. To me these special considerations strengthen the argument for colleges and universities to be free for all to attend. Getting a higher education should not be considered a privilege, but a fundamental right in any nation that values its people, their quality of life, and the nation's future.
It's pretty noble of you to turn down the better school on the basis of their desperation for racial diversity, but...to no surprise...it will continue to follow and haunt you down the road in life well after you leave school. Whether that be when you're out in the job market, the job itself, or grinding for that promotion to the next level. Humans are inherently judgemental at every angle, and I think going to the lower ranked school will have just added one more negative thing on the list for you to be judged against. I'm not sure what your career goals are, but with essentially small state college as your alma mater, it's certainly going to be increasingly harder to land a job or even interview at, say, big four accounting firm, big tech or big law if you do law school.
@@irishknightt It is easier to judge than to think. We all make our choices in what we do which determines who we are. I made my choice twenty-eight years ago and I have never felt haunted by it. And I continue to make choices for myself based on my own personal integrity over compromising it. I know who I am, and I am not willing to be a person who chooses any means to an end. Living life is a process, not a result. A journey, not a destination. Our destinations are all the same, death. How we live life is everything and what gives it meaning and value. What kind of person I want to be in this world, the relationships I have with other people, are what matters most to me. My goals are not about a career, that's an activity which we do, not who we are. My concern is about the quality of my humanity, the practices and disciplines that support it, and my expression of it in this world. What's harder in life? Living a life in which your ethics and morals must be constantly compromised to achieve other people's ideas of financial success and high social standing within society? Or living by one's own accord with less money and little recognition while knowing that your integrity remains intact and without regrets?
I had similar experience. I studied in Western Europe for a Master's degree and was considering a PhD in GIS (traditionally very male-dominated thing). I was offered it, but I refused. The reasons were many, of course, but one of them actually was because I didn't know if they wanted me for merit or because I was a girl and in this country there were very "advanced" rules on diversity and % of girls in STEM. I mean eventually I didn't want it enough, otherwise I would have taken the opportunity, but the fact that I doubted myself because of this "affirmative action" amazes me! It is interesting because finishing my Bachelor's degree just 2 years before in Eastern Europe I never had such a thought. I always knew that whatever I've done was my work and even if some (very few) teachers were joking about how girls are going to get married and not go further in studies (again, not in kind of malitious way), it never bothered me. It made me more determined. I was smirking internally to these comments like "Yeah, we see how it goes :)))))
The problem with race based admissions (affirmative action) was that it didn't benefit those whose family history were actually oppressed in America. I forget the name of the study, but I remember reading that the majority of black people admitted into colleges were first generation African-Americans or west indies black people, not American blacks.
Yeah, and not even that, but that study or another one (or maybe Thomas Sowell), showed that the graduation rate was significantly lower amongst those American blacks and I think latino too, because they actually were lacking academically. So it was actually doing them a dis-service having them admitted to a higher degree at a higher level college, because they didn't get the degree, rather than if they went for an easier degree (say nurse vs doctor, or civil engineer vs nuclear engineer) at a lower level uni (where the bar to get the degree is lower) and actually graduating. Its also a stupid argument on the face of it, because this kid and liberals have no problem discriminating against Asians whilst admitting they work harder, yet at the same time they blame slavery from 200 years ago and red-lining from 60yrs ago for the poor performance of black kids in inner city schools rather than the fact the black students just don't pay attention in class or study, the polar opposite of what Asians do. It also doesn't explain how then first generation immigrants, many of whom have ACTUALLY experienced slavery or direct racism coming from Nigera or Sierra Leone etc, do so much better despite having some of the worst circumstances on the planet.
@@joshuadalton6063 the detriment and trauma slavery in the west (and racist policies afterwords) has put on black people and their current culture today is why many of these issues exist imo. Creating the grounds of equal opportunity doesn't really matter when someone else who is financially better off attended the best daycare Montessori lol and extended math after-school programs. These kids don't grow up in environments that are detrimental to their education with shootings and drugs etc... therefore expecting the same outcome for the majority imo makes no sense. We are therefore dealing with a major cultural issue that Americans have to face.. In addition to poor economics which we all know was compounded through racist policy's from the past which obviously affects the future, the process of slavery and everything afterwords really destroyed their culture and replaced it with something much worse. This is why Africans in general do much better regardless of their hardships.. they still have an identity/ culture that they pull from.
@@Chatillgbt Black americans were doing far better in the 40s and 50s, during actual racist times, than they were in the 90s or now, Post Jim Crow and changes to laws like red-lining. The racist policy causing the biggest impact right now is those that came from the 1964s economic opportunity act which directly caused the destruction of the black american family. It certainly has led to a drug and gang culture, but it wasn't slavery that caused that, and the African immigrants also come from countries facing the same problems but they don't have the victim mindset which is why they succeed. Ultimately all I hear is excuses about how the past was bad or how XYZ life isn't fair, rather than taking some accountability for poor choices they continue to make every day whilst blaming everyone else for those choices.
About the question on unconscious biases, I think one thing a society can do to make it absolutely worst is to put those people who are being allegedly unconsciously discriminated agains, in positions that can be judged by themselves or others as unearned or undeserved, this will just perpetuate or exaggerate any unconscious bias that may exist in the society
It was interesting hearing this brought up. I thought it was a good point because historically it is true. My problem with the student bringing it up is that they are not current with how society has already moved. My own anecdotal experience is showing that applicants are now being considered based solely on their race and their name. My wife has been part of a hiring committee for her school district to hire teachers and principles. My wife is a minority, we both grew up in an urban city and went to the same schools. My wife is highly respected in her role because of her merit and intelligence. She does work with predominantly white people. While my wife is going through applications and taking notes on applicants schooling, job history and what they want to bring to the district. While her white co workers are literally saying, "I love this name" or after the interview when asked what they thought of the applicant, they say, "I loved that they were a black woman". Point is, especially in the education system, which is evident by what we see in most of these videos, the idea that we are to completely throw out merit of an applicant based solely on race is a detriment. In no way is it helpful or conducive to consider race as part of an application. Saying that doesn't excuse or change the fact that it wasn't a determining factor in the past. I believe that society has moved on culturally from thinking that way. To tell a student or applicant that they only got in because of their skin color and not their merit and that by allowing student to attend a school that doesn't fit their academic ability is not helping them. I went to a tech school, I could have gone to a traditional public school. I would have failed traditional school. It doesn't fit for me. I went to a community college. I wouldn't succeed at Dartmouth, it wouldn't fit me. If a student applies to Dartmouth it is their merit and qualifications alone that should decide if they get in. The rigor of education provided at Dartmouth is going to be significantly different than the rigor of education at a community college. By allowing a student without the ability to thrive will leave them with high debt and a failing grade in their classes. There are poor uneducated white people, and there are poor uneducated minorities. There are rich educated white people and there are rich educated minorities.
It's 'Unconscious' which means that people can NOT control that certain Bias...which is very different from a Conscious Bias which can be Modified through Behavior and Situational Adjustments/Therapies (for lack of a better term).
@@Dragonstalon1001 can you explain how someone can unconsciously decide they don't like something related to the perception of someone's race based on a name? I would assume that they already had a bias and apply it when they believe that the name is attached to a specific race. Unconscious bias doesn't exist. Either you have it or you don't.
@@Mr.Wongburger It's Unconscious, meaning you have NO CONTROL over it. The only things you can control are CONSCIOUS Biases. One happens that you are Unaware of, while the other happens when you are Aware of it.
@@Dragonstalon1001 No I understand the fundamental premise of of unconscious bias as it is being taught. I'd like to understand how anyone can think that a bias can be unconscious? Because when I think of something being an unconscious action I think of things like breathing or my heart beating. There seems to be an irrational, in my opinion, change in the fundamental way we perceive other peoples actions. To me, when I'm told that someone has an unconscious bias, in reality I assume they were already bias by choice. Either they were raised that way or they had a lived experience that changed them. But at the end of the day they choose to look at a name and go, "nope not that one". That is a conscious choice.
The fact this even in the realm of discussion tells me just how poor some people are at thinking critically. You don’t allow people who are disabled physically to jump the line, you make it possible for them to navigate everywhere there need or want to be. We must have equal opportunity and then let natural competition take over.
I get into university. I don't do my work, waste time, don't go to class etc. My outcome won't be favorable but its because of the system that I'm failing. You only have to look at the disparity to see the injustice.
Well the thing you have to think about is African Americans make up 12.4% of the population and make up 12.7% of College undergrads. Hispanic make up 18.7 of the population and 21.7 of undergraduate so were the huge disparity
To the left, they're only talking about positions of power so in this instance, they're referring to the elite colleges. Jordan Peterson had a humorous example with regards to women with his bricklayer argument. The vast majority are men so should we account for the disparity and try to have more female bricklayers?
You should do a topic on if Affirmative Action should be applied in professional sports and if not, why it should only be applied to schools and certain jobs and not professional sports. Would be very interesting to see peoples opinions on this.
We've literally seen activists make the case that rocket science should be made less hard because it's racist. I wish I was joking. To simultaneously think you can do rocket science without doing rocket science is Monty python level absurdity but to also be that cut and dry racist you think other ethinicty don't have the cognitive ability or potential to learn rocket science is hysterical, especially as it's coming from a place of virtue signalling.
@@mathewszulman7659 This is already applied to our police force, the athleticism and skills required have been substantially reduced in order to accommodate women and fat people, all in the name of equality. Woke hiring policies bring equality DOWN to the lowest common denominator and everybody suffers for it.
I really like these types of debates and think they help both sides understand where others are coming from as well as their own arguments. However, I think there may be too many option variations. If you took out "agree" and "disagree" that would be better overall in my opinion. However, I do like how you added questions from the audience. Great job Mr Boghossian!
I would argue that the guy on the Strongly Disagree was not listening to the guys on the Strongly Agree. He was too busy telling people how oppressed minorities are, and as a white male he should know.
I think it’s more accurate to look at these is discussions rather than debates. The whole purpose of the varying degrees of agree or disagree are for the individual to gage how strongly they feel on the matter. A lot of times with debates if one individual is looked at as the “opponent” then that other person might tend to dig their heals in because they aren’t supposed to concede ground or points to the opponent. If instead someone looks down and admits “I only slightly agree” with this statement then they will be more open to information and opinions. This paired with reinforcement of “why did you pick your specific line” really makes the individual consider their stance and what supporting information or thoughts go into it.
"They are put into districts..." Who is putting anyone in districts. He acts like there is a big white arm reaching out and picking up black people like on a chess board and moving them around at will.
Shouldn’t college admissions be based on merit? Just like getting considered for a job at google or getting drafted by the nba. If I am a business owner I would want to hire the best talent, no matter the race, gender etc. This will give me the best chance to succeed. Affirmative action as not been shown to be helpful. It puts many of these students in situations where they may not excel as well. Thanks again Peter for bringing these important topics to light.
It's like when you run a foot race. EVERYONE starts at the same spot. Equal opportunity. The race begins, and it's up to each person as to who crosses the finish line. This isn't "give-a-medal-to-all" . It's Equal opportunity.
Did you miss the point of the debate? You are starting from the premise that everyone is equal. This is clearly not true. And don't try to naturalize inequality because there is a degree to which we can fight inequality and, in doing so, produce an equal playing field.
I am genuinely curious if my own bias makes me see this incorrectly, but it would appear to me that every time the liberal side of the argument speaks, they START with sounding a bit upset, rushed, and out of breath. How can you have a real conversation with someone if you're starting in your negative emotions. Please let me know if there are obvious examples of those on the conservative side who start conversations that way so that I can correct my view.
This is a core problem when confronted with arguments or supporting ideas. There is a layer of frustrated judgement that does not serve to convince those you are discussing or an audience. I have a number of ideals that are left leaning that I have been able to convince people slightly on because I present them in a calm and clear non judgemental way. I see some hardline conservatives falling into this as well when discussing vaccines, abortion, Trump impeachment, etc.
@@devonmarr9872 Thank you for your input. Now that you mention it, I have seen those conservatives behave that way, but it's typically at rallies or protests where everyone is more likely to be amped up anyway. TBH, most of my peer group consists of left-leaning moderates. I'm a right-leaning moderate, but we're all close enough on most issues, that I don't typically see the heat in my personal conversations.
Here is what you do...rather than judging people by race, judge them by their own individual, personal backgrounds, and provide assistance where individuals have merit, but lack the economic resources required.
13:40, "no equal opportunity with out equal outcomes." There is no reason to listen to an ideologue any further as nothing constructive maybe gained for everyone.
Interesting that we have heard this exact same redlining argument at a few different institutions using the exact same words. Is it coming from the same source? You can have equality of outcome or equality of opportunity. Not both.
Measuring the outcome to determine if the opportunity is equal is logically incorrect. This could only be the case if every human was the exact same and came from the exact same background and had the exact same drives and motivations. Just because outcomes are not equal you cannot assume that opportunities are therefor not equal. They COULD be but one isn't directly dependent on the other. Some people (in all races and genders) can be given all of the opportunities possible, and still not have the correct drive, values or ambition to succeed. That is why humans are complex. This type of thinking is scary.
Good points Interestingly, if you force outcomes to end the same, that does NOT mean the opportunities were equal. In fact, I think it ensures that they were not. Meaning, it would require extreme bias in the selection process to get everyone to end the ame (baed on demographic), and these people would have no problem with it. NO
@@caseyjudson1062 I completely agree. And the people who disagree, I find they have a different definition of equal or fair. They see fair as everyone getting the same output, no matter how much they input. While others, including myself, see equal or fair to mean getting an output equal to your amount of input. Kind of a crude way to describe it but that seems to roughly be the underlying difference.
Problem with the 'strongly disagree ' camp, is that they don't have solution and yet not ready to reason to find solution. Just stuck at equal outcome like broken record. 2 siblings in a home cannot have equal outcome, only the equal opportunity to both siblings can be ensured by parents.
These conversations were hard to listen to, on one level. But so important. If you disagree with some of the people speaking on a topic, take the time to sit down and write out your thoughts. Articulating, your opinions and observations is a great way strengthen your own argument, you may also discover ways that the person you disagree with was right on some level. This is the only way to coexist with people who think differently than we do. We must relearn how to listen to each other.
As a person of color, an immigrant, I oppose the consideration of race in college admissions process. Rather, I believe they should look consider social/economy class of one applicant, his/her zip code. A lot of people who were born to poor families and live in bad areas do try very hard to get better in life. They deserve higher education. This way we can eliminate racial debate in college admissions process, but still can emphasize on equality of opportunity for minorities. Same for disabled students. I even think those students whose parents are in military service should also be considered, or even those who live with only one parent. But that's my opinion
"The only way to measure equality of opportunity is through the measure of equality of outcome". Does he even realize how incredibly ignorant this statement is? Just wow.....
I just received my copy of Agency: The Four Point Plan for All Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover their Pathway to Power. by Ian Rowe. Hoping for some workable suggestions.
That's such a dangerous statement. Equality of outcome is a great way to disregard consideration of where people want to be and where their competencies are, and to then put them in places they do not belong. Something ends up majority white because of cultural affinity - ok, so what? There's a presupposition that that's a problem, when it needn't be.
Disparity in representation doesn’t automatically equal discrimination. Is the NBA racist against all non-black players since 81% of the NBA is black whereas only 13% of the general population is black? Is the Scripps National Spelling Bee racist for having a disproportionate representation of Asian kids? If we as a society do our best to implement colorblind admission processes in all aspects of life (school, work, leisure, etc) then the results simply are what they are.
Dang this is so interesting, can you do this at a non college adult club? Like maybe a local democratic chapter or republican chapter, or a company outside their work hours?
Some believe only certain races should be be promoted, while others are demoted. They believe in their feelings of moral superiority. They essentially believe they can use any means that feel they they can get away with.
Yea it's call authoritarians, communists, weak people that hunger for power for power sake since they think society will respect them more. It all stems from personal insecurities and values ingrained during childhood.
I'd like to ask "How many white people should be deprived of opportunity in order to correct for the past injustices perpetrated by people they aren't even necessarily related to?"
I seen this disagree dude before. Pretty sure he was talking with Destiny (a political streamer) aswell. He seems to have not thought out his view points. At least that is always how it appears to me.
You hit the nail on the head because Destiny is a big time leftist. I've seen him debate before and he always uses the same leftist talking points which are based on pure emotion and feelings not reality.
i fully understand what the guy in the glasses is saying. and it makes comete sense if you view the world like i assume he does. the problem is that is impossible to prove. props to everyone for getting up there and having a discussion in a mature fashion
The key, regardless of race, is to ensure that ALL students across the entire country are provided a high-quality education. School funding shouldn't be based on income levels of communities, poor teachers/professors should be able to be fired, and school choice should be made available to all parents.
@Quietcastle has all the answers…Dude set an example and let a less qualified person rise above you and your coddled children!! Come on know it all out your privilege where your mouth is!! Dope!! No of course you wouldn’t cause your a faker and bullshitter!! I can’t wAit till your offspring says “Daddy why didn’t I get into Dartmouth when a POC who did a lot less well than I did got in??” Waaahhhh!! “We’ll son/daughter that’s what equality of out come is…advancement not on merit but in their race, gender, etc.!!
I review scholarship applications for the University of California. The applications are gathered and distributed online with no ability to see the race of the applicant unless they disclose it in their written essays.
And the process happens to be run by people who are not white. They kindly remind us of what to and not to consider. We are allowed to consider the economic hurdles they are or will overcome.
@@edwinamendelssohn5129 I'm not aware of any reason. Just thought I'd offer that up. Maybe I shouldn't have disclosed that either. I thought it was managed well
If i give 2 random people a basketball and had them shoot hoops. I split 100$ between them based on their scores. If one gets 25$ and the other gets 75$, would this guy seriously say one had an inequal opportunity? I biased the basketballs? Yikes
My junior year in high school I got into a conversation with a student of Mexican descent about the upcoming enrollment towards college and I was first introduced to affirmative action. Now I have been in the special education classification 504 since fifth grade, and was there by allowed extra time on tests and one or two other concessions that ostensibly were there to help me succeed academically... And I found them to be useful if also slightly inclining me towards leaning into the advantages they provided. Me being typically shortsighted and certifiably underachieving thought that whatever helps the powers that be we're presenting would be a net positive and (though I had zero actual knowledge of any historical/cultural repression) , easy to accept concession. I was blown away by the vociferous and charged response that she gave emotionally and even more so was gobsmacked by her reasoning; that being that she personally had worked hard, very hard and had poured an incredible amount of time and effort into her scholastic achievement, and was in fact insulted by the very idea of affirmative action as was her family opposed to it. She didn't need some cuddling crutch for her to be successful and could not out of principle accept any sort of easements to her successful application to a college of her choice. It was an incredible conversation for me because I was struck blindsided at the necessary connotations and diminishment of one's efforts that I had been saddled with, to the point of not only blindly and blithely going along with what the"specialist educators" we're instilling in me. It was humbling and embarrassing and I had to step by step awkwardly articulate on the spot to this young woman that I had never even conceived of that level of self-respect and self-belief... And that in no way shape or form did I think that she needed the help because she somehow wouldn't have been able to do it on her own. Luckily God loves fools and children of which I was both and I ended up having conversation much later into the night and I meant to with her and her mother father to uncles and Aunt in which they cleared out the ignorant cobwebs of youth and expounded together and then on my behalf to me what one is capable of with the proper organization of one's community and one's perspective. We all had a good laugh about it also the look on my face when she snapped at me. Also it was this very instance that begin my journey to untangling myself from the invegling and insidious negative attentions and affectations of Texas special education policy. The ways in which an oppression narrative can be hooked on to evolving and maturing perspectives is truly harrowing. So much fuel is going on to the fire of resentful attitudes and of a paranoid hypervigilance that, burn bright as a guiding light for many many years in these growing men and women... But then abandons them burnt out and shell shocked.
This is one that really hit home for me… I grew up in a home that was considered middle class… But barely… When I was admitted into the University I attended my parents made just a few hundred dollars more than what was considered poor lower class… so being white and considered ‘middle class’ the loans and scholarships I was able to get to assist me were limited…And of course my father lost his job while I was in school during my first semester, so the scholarships and grants that I could get were minimal compared to what they could have been… If I had just gone to school year later… I also had an African American roommate who ended up getting a full ride just because of his ethnicity… I ended up paying everything that wasn’t covered by my few scholarships(which wasn’t much) out of my own pocket because my parents couldn’t help me. I went tens of thousands of dollars in debt and today I’m still paying that off almost 20 years later.
He was super defensive from the start…. He likely spent more energy looking for his que to cry victim than he did on his position. ALL the umms and pauses went away when he tries to dig in.
@Peter Boghossian Let's see one that focuses on the similarities between wanting to help POC and how it resembles thinking less of POC. The right would argue that it's infantilization while the left tends to believe in today's world they need help.
We’re always entertaining new claims. We’ll also release videos showing how these claims were generated-they are (almost) entirely generated by audience members.
@@drpeterboghossian Keep up the great work Peter. I think what you are all doing is so critical in today's cultural climate. I'm a Canadian citizen in the process of immigrating to the USA where my wife is from. What happens in American culture tends to bleeding into Canada not long after. Critical thinking is like a muscle that deteriorates if not exercised, so well done making all of these people engage not only with the ideas of others but with their own ideas as well.
The strongly disagree person actually mentioned what I would perceive as the real issue without addressing his own phrasing. That issue is economic privilege. One of the questions brought this up. If you want to move away from the effects of a previously racist system, then you should target areas that disproportionately populated by disparaged races. If there is a disproportionate affiliation of historically oppressed races in the area of poverty, then by granting free admissions to people from poor families you would also disproportionately lift up those races that have been afflicted. Of course, there still must be a standard of academic achievement regardless of the programs availability. As an aside to that, if there is “systemic racism,” then that would be demonstrated through the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of said program. And even then, you’d have to look at the learning opportunities of the individuals as well as the promoted ideals in their homes in order to confirm the theory. That student is severely lost in his own mind on this issue as he himself couldn’t even recognize when he made the observation about poverty, and still found it necessary to focus entirely on race. Money is a much bigger factor than anything else in western society in terms of upward momentum. And there are poor people of all colours that suffer from that fact. Giving people the ability to become accredited in education without earning it is highly undesirable for a number of reasons as it will only lower the standards while creating distrust in our institutions - something we are all painfully aware of in these trying times.
"You can't have equality of opportunity without equality of outcome"....WOW....How do you explain two siblings in the same house that end up at two different "outcomes" with their lives? My sister and I both grew up together with clearly the same opportunities and support mechanisms. My sister is now 44 and I am 41, she still has no high school diploma, has never owned a home of her own and makes less that $30k/yr whereas I have a Bachelor's degree, have owned several of my own homes and make over six figures. Equality of opportunity will naturally lead to different outcomes as people make different choices...and there is nothing wrong with that. Equality of outcome would actually be at the detriment of many people, both women and "POC".
1:57 hate to say it, but it seems to be a common tell/stereotype... folks in this camp do get more emotional, and they don't know how to dial it down to a level that's appropriate to the situation or venue. First two guys are pretty chill. The other guy, well look: 17:02
Culture is not a system. Systems are inter-objective and external phenomenon, while cultures are internal and inter-subjective. This is a big conflation that I see everywhere today
Yes* Class and economic status should play a core role. Separating just on race or having race be a primary factor has been used to discriminate against Asian students and put people into schools that would otherwise not get in than leave them high and dry with support so they do not succeed where if they had gone to a lower school would have thrived.
Using color as a proxy for economic status results in perverse outcomes. The Obama girls would be eligible for admission preferences based on their ethnicity, in spite of going to excellent private schools and having wealthy parents with law degrees, one of whom was President. They're assumed to be less privileged than working-class public school white kids, who would have to meet higher standards to get in.
I think the college administration process should be without name, race, sex, national origin or religious affiliation. Students should be admitted by achievements and merit.
I think an interesting prompt would be "Has globalization created a better world?" I have noticed "globalists" have become unpopular among many on both sides of the isle.
eventually. y u think there is discrimination in homogenous countries. it solves nothing. people find the next thing. if it's not colour it's hirght. looks,
Equal outcomes (equity) and equal opportunity can ONLY both be achieved if EVERY aspect of each person's life is completely controlled and regulated according to the person with the lowest natural ability. In other words, equity is antithetical to freedom.
"You're ignoring the real fact" "The playing field is so unequal" "The houses where built to discriminate." Wow, just lots of opinion purported as fact... Even stating that asian people studying more shouldn't justify unequal outcomes in educational performance, so his viewpoint is that behavior doesn't affect educational performance, but just make those outcomes equal or things are unfair.
I feel that creating equal opportunity (not outcome) needs to happen very early, not in the college admission process. So, we as a society need to deal with poverty and wealth inequality. How we deal with that is up for quite a bit of debate of course. But start with supporting children, providing security, good nutrition and education to them. You're kind of fucked in this world when you get a shitty start. College isn't a start. It's a path for *some* people (I'd argue probably not for most people).
Dartmouth seems to have changed...???...I really thought you would have had a packed room for this debate and exchange of viewpoints...That does surprise me...I personally loved the concerted shared of a holistic approach with only numbers assigned rather than names. That would not remove the other details of an applicant which get shared on applications, but gender, race, and income should not be determining factors in higher education in my view of it...
Obviously we should only judge people by the color of their skin, and not by the content of their character, as MLK stated, according the to be revised postmodern marxist history.
My jaw dropped when the kid said equal opportunity doesn’t exist without equal outcome, this statement is beyond preposterous. Unreal
That doesn't even make any sense. Like at all lol..
Time stamp?
Time stamp 13:41
If everyone doesn’t get an A in the class, there’s no equal opportunity.
Equal opportunity does not mean equal ability.
If you have a 5 and a 10 year old compete at the same standard, you won’t have equal outcome. Equal opportunity does not mean equal ability/foundation.
Sounds like the kid who strongly disagrees has been 'systematically' brainwashed into believing the bigotry of low expectations is not only acceptable but just.
Typical brainwashed white knight
Disagrees?
I strongly agree with you
@@larrya17 Yeah, the kid w/ the glasses who went to the strongly disagrees line...I did have it right :)
@@PhillipRauschkolb yes you are correct. I got the positions mixed up for a moment there. Thx!
The guy literally just said system about 100 times without making a single point. If you asked him "what is a system?" He'd probably explode.
A system is a systematic system of systems that systematically systemizes systems into systems.
he just brainwashed by the left, kinda sad tbh cus he seems like a normal dude
Lol thank you! Just shows how he is just regurgitating liberal talking points rather than using his own critical thinking
And then he lied about being treated unfairly by Peter because he's the lone liberal speaking truth to all this systemic power. A gross little propaganda-dispenser with no real understanding of the systems of power he whines about, ignoring the class-based root causes of oppression while essentializing a social construct (race).
@@FungusMossGnosis It wasn't a lie but it was whining. Anyone who watches these videos by Peter knows that he does a good job asking both sides the question "what would it take for you to move one line over" for every possible direction but in this case Peter hadn't gotten to it yet or forgot to ask him, and the guy was overly defensive about "logic and reason" somehow being anti-liberal.
Peter Boghossian is doing something here that NOBODY else is doing. He is having humane, rational and kind discussions with people who have genuine disagreements. If we could all do this more in our daily lives, we could save our politics.
I wonder when he will be fired - makes way too much sense.
Wouldn't you love to see him proctor for congress?
Saying nobody else is doing it is very false. Do you seriously think that out of the 300 million people in the US, he is the only person?
@@CHMichael He already was fired/cancelled.
People like this kid think they are correct by default. He said himself, nothing could change his mind, while the other side said they were open to changing their minds With the right evidence. They are the true liberals. The kid isn’t.
Simply put, you can't stop racism by being racist. Positive discrimination based on a certain skin colour means negative discrimination of other skin colours. University admissions should be based on merit and nothing else.
Absolutely!
I think there’s an argument for poor people to have some sort of advantage to offset nepotism.
@@spledgball This is what the whtie guy on the right was arguing for, look at each individual, their parents income etc and use that instead of a shitty heuristic like race, because like one of the questioners mentioned there are some poor af white people for example as well.
@@spledgball Definitely. My friend who has PTSD and therefore finds it difficult to keep her life in order too, deserves assistance. I'm in the UK but that's exactly what happened. She is studying microbiology and crushing it. I know that's not poor exactly, but the result is similar enough to be the same.
Okay, but how do you account for the fact that most of the US population is white, and the majority of people living in poverty are people of color? Impoverished living significantly lowers your opportunity for education and your ability to achieve said merit. If and only if everyone starts with equal footing, then education should be based solely on merit.
"I demand that the system fix itself because I have the lowest opinion about POC and therefore demand they be treated differently. Also, no, I won't give up my own college acceptance because I earned it."
True, but as Mr. Strongly Agree said, it is "incorrect framing."
@@mustang607 Its not the virtuous framing lol, there are always two sides. Were we have diverged from the past is merit versus optics.
Thomas Sowell has written books about this....affirmative Action mismatches black students with Universities. There were more black University students doing better in the 1960's than today. The average SAT score of the black population of Universities is significantly lower than other racial groups because of the affirmative Action policy. This has resulted in blacks dropping out at higher rates and ending up in the lower 50% of their class. A black student who would be capable of succeeding at getting a medical degree at UCLA will flunk out of Harvard usually chasing a critical theory of education.
@@TangieTown81 "The average SAT score of the black population of Universities is significantly lower than other racial groups because of the affirmative Action policy."
It was way lower before affirmative action and well as after affirmative action. I think they blame it on the questions.
@@TangieTown81 Glenn Loury and John mcwhorter say the same thing - both teach at Ivy leagues. Both are black and are against affirmative action
Strongly agree, I was born in Iran, technically would be considered a minority, although I have never felt that way. Regardless, if I got a position at a school or job and they told me "hey, we accepted you because we needed some diversity and to help you feel less oppressed", I would say see you later, my race should have nothing to do with your decision of accepting me, it should be based mainly on academics, work ethic, and character. I have worked hard to build those 3 characteristics, it would be a shame for all that to be put aside and be hired because I am considered a minority. That would be doing a disservice to me.
💯 exactly
Bravely spoken. 👏🏻
i have question
can i ask what group of minority you are in iran ?
and Is iran like US a race driven society like what we see now in US or people just dont care what race you are?
@@magic-m5489 Oh I don't live in Iran anymore, I live in Canada. I meant I am technically a minority here in Canada because I'm Iranian. And in Iran it's more driven based on religion, not race.
@@vichenzadoorian7551 Most immigrants want to assimilate and not be singled out. If you are in Toronto, Im not sure how much longer you will be a minority. Its turning into little Tehran like Los Angeles.
Racism is systematic so we need more systemic racism.
100% makes so much sense if you do your hardest to not think about it for a second 😀
He nearly broke me when he said "there's no equality of opportunity without equality of outcome", I was like "waitaminute… how does that work ?". But then I came back to my senses =p
@@lonewaer Yep, his body language seized up. Shoulders lifted, arms crossed, eyes darting, difficulty controlling breathing resulting in spastic speech and mannerisms. He was in fight or flight most of the time. What's most interesting about this is it indicates at least some part of him is aware of his derangement.
With these types you just checkmate them by identifying with whatever is most beneficial at the time.
Check out The Hidden Dangers of Affirmative Action | Thomas Sowell at Sowell Explains
How would you feel if your lawyer looked like Pamela Anderson or Dolly Parton? Would you believe they graduated at the top of their class because of their brains or because they had special talents? Would you trust a minority race doctor if you knew that they received better grades just because theyre a minority?
@@skanda1832 Exactly i find all the liberals somehow always go in this fight or flight super hyper anxious state that makes it ever harder to view their point seriously 🤦🏽♂️
My brother and I are a great example of the differences in equality of outcome. We both had the opportunity to attend the same schools and our parents strongly encouraged us to succeed. He has a disposition that drove him to advanced mathematics and I have a disposition that drove me to working with physical things and little patience for school. He attained an advanced degree in statistics and a position in the department of health. I work with a product in passionate about and get to fix things. He makes significantly more money than I do, but I would say that we are both equally happy doing what we are doing. It just seems that people are willing to pay more for his skill set than for mine at this point in our careers.
That's a really pernicious thing about our society I wish we could fix. Economics under capitalism is crazy and this is a huge discussion - I might bring this topic up in the SE discord haha
@Tatrer - Wish you could have been in the video talking some Reality! There is no way on earth that we will have Equal Outcomes unless...it is forced upon us, including mandating equal pay for every job regardless of effort, competence, education/apprenticeship. So? A janitor makes as much as a doctor as much as a burger flipper as a basketball player. As much as I don't like the HUGE disparities in income between low-skilled to high-skilled professions, gotta admit that "letting the Market decide" is the fairest and most just thing we got. And as Milton Friedman said, Capitalism WITH morality. Throw in some Jordan Peterson speaking about how we will always have corruption, but to rid ourselves of it as best we can.
@@MarkHWillson
Capitalism and pricing helps us allocate resources as best as we can. So, the guy that works with products makes less money because 1.) society doesn’t value that product as much as the other product 2.) more people can do that product job.
That’s all. The pricing mechanic is crazy complicated because it takes literally millions of factors.
“We both has the opportunity” cool, not everyone does. Cute anecdote though.
@@thorsummoner Pretty much agree that it's the best system so far but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. There are a number of factors I think are important that your comment is not taking into account, particularly around transparency of information, education levels, and differences between fields of work. Obviously, however, I don't expect a dissertation in the form of a TH-cam comment, haha. We probably agree on most things if we hashed it out, but I'm not particularly interested in doing so right now. I'll start a topic in the SE discord sometime soon if you're interested in continuing the discussion. Cheers
I’m proud to be an American when there are discussions like this being shared.
"Discussions" like these are all part of the illusion to maintain America hegemony, which is coming to an end soon.
You should be ashamed such a discussion is even necessary. Affirmative Action is racist.
@@mariussielcken Thoughtful discussions about polarizing and difficult topics are nothing to be ashamed of.
@@scriven-shafts agreed and if affirmation action is racist, then how do we get rid of it without discussing it? 🤔
You’re European, you’re not native to this land.
As soon as the strongly disagree guy started saying "systematically" repeatedly, I knew we weren't going to hear anything but trained script from him. The only way people are openly discriminated against on a systemic level is the very thing he defends.
Not true
That and divorce court
And the algorithms of big tech.
Not true at all lmao. If you put your head in the sand when you hear the word systematic it says more about your scripted responses than his.
@@galacticrelic258 these people are so oblivious to their own ignorance
The disagree guy doesn't disappoint, he looks and speaks as i expect from him.
his professor will be proud.
It’s such a shame
Like a redditor 😂
This is what happens when a dumb person tries to sound smart, he even has an Einstein shirt lol...
His baseline communication is where he loses, even outside of the words being spoken. Rushing, blaming, and leading with emotion.
I would love to see this meat head lose his place in college because of affirmative action.
Does this guy know who runs the admissions department in colleges and universities? He's calling them "systemically racist".
Progressivism will always pit itself against its own mechanisms. It's a ideology, not a philosophy.
lol yea he doesn't know, I think in this video the guy said he thought professors were handling the admissions process... most higher ed institutions don't do that though. Pretty sure he was just shooting from the hip at certain points lol
That guy’s a useful idiot. I hope he learns to redirect and govern his passions, or they will be his undoing. (The guy located appropriately on the far left of the viewer’s screen.)
well historically colleges and universities did discriminate in selecting Black People, which is why HBCUs were formed in the first place. Thats fact.
@@knighthonor44, my man, that's a fair point you make. That said, you have to ask WHERE this discrimination was done, and by WHOM? It was perpetrated and condoned by the very same Democrat Party that exists today. In the mid 60s, they realized Americans no longer agreed with these polices. Instead they embraced black folks and claimed to become their champion. Democrats have always run universities and colleges. Nothing has changed except the methods they use. The result is the same: obtaining and perpetuating poltical power. They'll use anyone they can to get it. They'll even import their next generation of voters if they have to (check the Southern Border).
@@knighthonor44 Well historically progressives use to support sterilizing poor minority women and would do so without their knowledge. It was happening in the 70s and was university supported.
It is painful to watch someone's attempt at an intellectual answer who clearly is conflicted, confused, or so lacking in debate and reasoning.
I don't see you making an argument... just whining like a little...
Ya that kid didn't have a clue where he was goin whenever he opened his mouth... he sure sounded like a complete idiot from beginning to end here, maybe he's a math wiz? Otherwise hes pretty much just a useless boob when it comes to contributing positively to society 😕
After listening to the Strongly Disagree guy I’ve moved to as far into the Strongly Agree side as possible. Platitudes and racism aren’t convincing at all.
He is simply ideologue without a brain.....proper intellectual.
@@HladniSjeverniVjetar you should watch his interview with Project Veritas when they visited Dartmouth from 3 months ago lmfao seems like he didn't learn anything there either.
so because he's poor at proving his point that makes the other point correct? your conclusion makes no sense.
@@KnightHawk1990 Wow, dude is frothing at his mouth borderline....specially when the black dude comes talking with him and instantly dismisses him as if he simply there as a token....well nothing more to expect.
@@Kevinschart that he's so poor at proving his point, juxtaposed with the opposing view providing multiple strong points is implied here to a certain extent. so your summary is somewhat inaccurate.
Conversations like these should happen everyday in every corner of this world. Love this.
We hope to go on another tour next year!
About 15 years ago I remember conversations like this at my super liberal university. I remember the race theory lecturer who was indigenous talking about atrocities being committed because of human nature and cultural influences rather than one skin colour being more violent than another.
Considerations based on race should be avoided for all purposes, barring racist purposes.
Equality of outcome is impossible unless you blatantly move people forward that do not deserve it
The only situation where considering someone's race it valid is in acting.
Example: If you want an actor to play the role of former emperor Hirohito, you don't want a black or a white person for that role.
This summarises my thoughts so well
@@leevy6753 like what has been done in the West with coloreds
@@leevy6753 Equality of outcome is impossible, period.
I think the last questioner hit the point that the strongly agree gentlemen should have:
If minorities are subject to poverty due to historical or current racist systems, you could simply base admissions on people’s economic status rather than race. This would solve the issue of underprivileged families having lesser opportunity while being race-agnostic. If minorities are the ones who are more economically underprivileged, then they will benefit in that proportion.
Agree. That is my opinion as well. But how would they reply? Because I'm sure there must be some sort of reply (even if it is a falacious one) to the economically based quotas in admission to universities... but I'm not aware of it and would not be able to argument against my own position on this matter.
I agree - but he immediately insisted that while this might be something to think about, there were SO MANY other slings and arrows the racial minorities had to endure that others did not that there MUST be some way to adjust for that.
I'd love to see his head explode if you asked him if that applies to the Asians, who often come as refugees with no money, are discriminated against, harassed and sometimes even killed because of their race - often by the same POC he wants to help, yet go on in general to achieve despite their circumstances.
@@fluxo_musical They won't reply because they don't want a solution. Solutions are bad for activism.
@Fishing with spiv check out how the Jamaicans and Nigerians are doing…neighborhoods side by side…same schools yet different outcomes…
@@LaOwlett 👌🏼
This is a textbook example of an ideologue. The person on the strongly disagree seems like a genuinely good-hearted and nice person, but will never concede on his beliefs, even when proven that those beliefs might be flawed or no longer valid. Great discussion nonetheless!
I argue he would change his perspectives if his group changed theirs.
he did not seem like a genuinely good-hearted or nice person to me.
He didn’t even understand his own position well enough to give a coherent explanation. That’s not his fault the ideology is nonsense but it is his fault for hitching himself to it without understanding it. You could tell in his body language that he was not comfortable with his own thoughts.
Previous bad policy was to base decisions on race, and yet there are those that believe we need to use the same types of policies moving forward. Trying to fix past racism with current and future racism will only continue to tear society further apart.
Peter needs to start asking the Liberals that hold that 'Equality of Outcome' mindset, if the student FEELS that People of Color didn't have the same opportunities that that Student did, why don't they give up their slot in that College to a Person of Color. Bet that the student would all of the sudden say "I earned my spot in this College"...i.e. not willing to put their Money where their Mouth is!!
This is because reparation was not given to black folks immediately after slavery was abolished. Like the USA has to the Jews, Japanese, ect ect
@@DissentOrConcur The Japanese internees received no reparations until 1988. Not even close to immediate.
@@andyfletcher3561 correct. 40 years later for the Japanese.
I’m not convinced affirmative action is racism
Yes. Don't discriminate 1 way or the other. Find ways to lift people up, not cut them down.
Only discriminate on performance,.
The government cannot lift people up. They can only cut people down to the same level of misery.
Indeed, and the only way to reach equality of outcome is to cut everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
In a competitive environment, lifting someone up and cutting another down go hand in hand. Ignoring it doesn't change it.
The guy who disagrees is making a lot of assumptions and sounds totally indoctrinated.
This is what someone in a cult sounds like.
Wow,the extreme judgmental tone is so sad, and cliche for TH-cam. I don't see you attempting to make an argument ... right?!...!!
@@morbidmanmusic is the OP wrong though?
@@catalyst3713 nope, they are unable to diverge from the horde without excommunication.
"Theres no equal opportunity without equal outcome". 🤦♂️ I hope he looks back one day and can see the error of his ways.
They should have asked the dude on the left if we would give up his own seat at the college to someone from an oppressed race.
@@krisrap3828Will you trade places with a black person in this country?
Honest question mate
@@kwamebushman606 Depends on the person I am trading places with. I would trade places with a black person who is similarly educated as me. The blackness would be an extra bonus in these days of affirmative action.
Peter’s chill during the “equal outcomes” argument was amazing. ♡
He even apologizes for possible perceived slights with the agility of a mountain goat.
Thanks
It was interesting to see the behaviors of the two who agreed with each other. They both dressed the same way, and almost spoke the same. What's also striking is how the brown guy will yield to the white guy.
@@jpnewman1688
“The brown guy will yield to the white guy”
How so?
He moved to the strongly disagree first.
Are you sure you’re not reading into things that don’t exist?
@@jpnewman1688 These are two individuals. Two! That is a pathetic sample size. Its about as good as zero. There's nothing noteworthy about "the brown guy will yield to the white guy" except your own bias to look for there to be racial differences where it is not relevant.
"The term, affirmative action" is a euphemism.
It really means, "institutionalized racism".
mostly benefits White Women, not black peope
@@knighthonor44
How do you know this?
@@knighthonor44 then it's sexist too
I see myself as equally capable as any white person, and I want any job I get to be solely based on my skill, ability, work ethic and character. I'm not actually achieving anything by being given a job just for being a POC. Likewise, I don't have any difficulty getting a government ID, and I don't know anyone who doesn't get one at 18 to get cigarettes, or before they turn 21. Anyone who believes race should play a role in hiring is practicing maternalistic racism, aka the soft bigotry of low expectations.
This is why the left treats us like we have "special needs".
literally the world has countries of poc.. n they r doing fine.. but they r racist. u do t see a black president in Asia, white president I. Africa..
Exactly...the ID thing is the biggest insult of all to me....I just can't comprehend how the left acts like POC are too dumb and poor to get an ID. I live in Virginia, and we had FREE voter ID, anyone that wanted one could have one...it was always this way. Then, 2020 came around and the left controlled government got rid of voter ID completely, in the name of "POC can't get IDs". When I went to vote it was posted outside the ballot place no ID needed....the whole point of it was to allow mail in ballots that didn't need to be verified, and they were using POC as a tool to push this in. As a former left voter, I finally woke up to the nonsense of them treating POC like invalid children. Ridiculous, they all have ID and many are plenty skilled to get jobs without affirmative action.
Couldn't agree more. You expressed it perfectly.
💯! In the late 80s/early 90s the institution called education said that the standardized testing of students was unfair to black students because of a language barrier. The term ebonics was introduced. (From 1990 to 1992 I was earning and taking courses in Elementary Education.) I was told that because of this language "barrier" and the examples used in the testing (inner city black students, apparently, couldn't grasp the concept, for example, of life on a farm or suburban life) black students couldn't understand because of their "language." I was literally stunned. To me, the black children that they were referencing spoke street slang that all races used in these neighborhoods. They assumed that black children's brains were incapable of being challenged and unable to learn! When I did teach I taught with the assumption that if a child has a brain (with the exception of the mentally handicapped) that child could learn and it was MY job to teach them. It was my job to teach children by any means necessary in order for them to understand and learn. Affirmative action sets up minority kids for failure, especially if they don't have the grades. I said it then and I'll say it now: show me a parent who is actively interested in their child's education and I'll show you a kid who is going to succeed.
I couldn’t disagree more with this statement. Your confidence in yourself or pride doesn’t take away from the fact that POC have been adversely affected by past and current discrimination.
The past plays a huge part in everyone’s lives. For example, a child coming from a two parent home is more likely to do better by numerous studies. Also, a child from a two parent home is more likely to create a two parent home as well. So just because a child today isn’t experiencing the same levels of discrimination their parents or grandparents received, doesn’t take away from the fact that they are directly affected by the discrimination of the past.
Most people stay within the class they are born into. So if a child’s parent was put into a situation due to race, where he/she was not able to make a good income, go to college, or marry… that child does not have the same opportunities another has directly because of race. For example, only 4% of Ivy League students come from poor households. That directly shows you how the past affects the present. If you look at marriage statistics, almost half of all Black people are not married. And that is not due to culture, but 1000% because of the past and present.
Also, for an analogy, if America was one big Monopoly board… that would be like letting certain people get multiple turns around the board first. Then after all the property is purchased, POC gain access to play and have to start from the beginning with no help. The “certain people” have the majority of the property and understanding of how the game is played. With your mindset, that would be like the certain people who got to go first saying “Hey I did it! Why can’t you??”
I really think we need equal outcomes for all the different eye colors people can have.
Let's focus on arguing and dividing over this issue, but most importantly let's definitely not produce anything of value. And let's see where we end up in a few decades.
It has been awesome watching this channel grow. I always hoped Peter would start getting "something" involving youtube channel creation. I think he has found himself a wonderful niche. I hope this channel continues to grow and does well for him.
The fact that ALL races are welcome to apply for a college or for a job within a system is equal opportunity. They're all considered. That doesn't mean the outcome will be equal amongst race, gender, religion etc. If equal outcome is the goal instead of equal opportunity then I disagree with that fundamentally because it's problematic for more than one reason.
Exactly, it is like insisting that in a running match, the only way we know that it is fair would be if everyone crossed the finish line at the same time!!! Where as equal opportunity just means that everyone is allowed to participate in the race, everyone starts from the same line and that no-one can cheat, that’s it, we should not expect for everyone to finish at the same time, that would be idiotic
What are those reasons?
@@SherriSLC a spot could be taken by someone who didn't work as hard and is in a higher economic status but because of there race they were given a spot...
@@SherriSLC equal outcomes are impossible to achieve. How could they even be measured?
but you'd have to believe that our system country wide provides equal opportunity. it doesn't.
They have no interest in sifting through the proselytized content they've been taught in search of truth.
That guy had the best logic I've ever heard... "If you make the playing field equal, it won't account for the fact that the playing field isn't equal."
"But you can try"
But at what cost?
So good.
"There's no equality of opportunity without equality of outcome."
So we're just going to pretend that there is no such thing as differences in preferences or aptitude?? Given perfectly equal opportunities, people will still make choices that do not result in perfect distribution of outcomes (e.g. there will be more female teachers, and more male fishermen).
They're literally the opposite. You can only have one of the two. To achieve the second you have to dispense with the first, and if you have the first you will almost never have the second.
He forgot about nature. We are all unique and have different abilities and understandings.
This guy doesn’t understand how the choices people make are important
Imagine a philosophical belief where people do not make choices. Everything has been determined. Then imagine applying any form of logic to that belief.
@@mustang607 I can’t wait to force women into becoming brick layers!! (Sarcasm)
Equality of outcomes always sounds strange, what if there are just not enough people of a specific demographic interested in that subject? I can almost imagine a situation where you have a course which doesnt have enough of a particular demographic so the university has to drive around and coheres people of that demographic and force them to study that subject
It is a good way to destroy excellence, that's for sure.
Saw it happen, and watched them flunk out one-by-one.
Dude it gets even worse. Let’s say they don’t break it down by the hundreds of little oppressed groups and just stick to race and sex. This means from top to bottom every job or system needs to be 50% female. This would include homelessness, brick layers, prison. Etc. The NBA could only have 13% black athletes etc.
This would mean you would not be allowed to quit your job unless someone else from your group died or also wanted to move. Or maybe they would have to kill a certain number of people to keep the equity if a replacement could not be found.
Then you have to decide who gets the air conditioning job vs the coal miner.
Because that is the only way you can truly have equality of outcome. It is even worst then an Orwellian dystopia.
This combination of anger, zeal and ignorance used to be typical of soccer fans, not university students. Scary.
As a Korean American growing up in small town New Hampshire during a time when affirmative action and race played a large role in every aspect of my life. Having a White name was beneficial but when it came time for any in-person interview, the looks of surprise and the treatment I received was annoyingly racist. I crossed one prestigious university off my list for the simple reason that in so many words, it became clear that I was only a desirable attendee because of my race and how it would add diversity to the student body making the school look good. The benefit incurred was not really for me and my future, but theirs as an institution. I didn't want to be a poster child for their marketing and promotion of racial diversity. A representative called my house every day for six months trying to convince me to attend.
The school that I did end up going to offered me multiple scholarships based upon my high school academic achievements and performance. They did not mention my race at all. The school was not prestigious, far from being ivy league. It was a small state college but the affirmation of my efforts and academic achievements made them the clear choice over the prestigious one and others. I was seen and treated as human being who had worked very hard and earned the admission, rather than a number to add to a chart measuring the diversity of the schools own racial demographic.
Some thought I was crazy and foolish to not take advantage of my race to attend the more prestigious school but I found the focus on my race to be insulting and disingenuous. My academic achievements and accomplishments seemed meaningless and unimportant, to the one that focused on my race. I felt like all my efforts and the time I had spent was completely marginalized.
I know others who unapologetically played the race card and took every opportunity. I don't think badly of them for making that choice. I didn't and don't want to be used or have special consideration given because of how I look. I wanted and still want to be treated equally without my race being involved. Continuing admissions where race is a consideration merely serves to perpetuate racism. Affirmative action is not needed if people within a society stop putting it on the list.
As for the systemic racism and other inequalities that give students unfair advantages and disadvantages being considered as admissions considerations, like class and whatnot, I don't think these are appropriate either. To me these special considerations strengthen the argument for colleges and universities to be free for all to attend. Getting a higher education should not be considered a privilege, but a fundamental right in any nation that values its people, their quality of life, and the nation's future.
It's pretty noble of you to turn down the better school on the basis of their desperation for racial diversity, but...to no surprise...it will continue to follow and haunt you down the road in life well after you leave school. Whether that be when you're out in the job market, the job itself, or grinding for that promotion to the next level. Humans are inherently judgemental at every angle, and I think going to the lower ranked school will have just added one more negative thing on the list for you to be judged against. I'm not sure what your career goals are, but with essentially small state college as your alma mater, it's certainly going to be increasingly harder to land a job or even interview at, say, big four accounting firm, big tech or big law if you do law school.
@@irishknightt It is easier to judge than to think. We all make our choices in what we do which determines who we are.
I made my choice twenty-eight years ago and I have never felt haunted by it. And I continue to make choices for myself based on my own personal integrity over compromising it. I know who I am, and I am not willing to be a person who chooses any means to an end. Living life is a process, not a result. A journey, not a destination. Our destinations are all the same, death. How we live life is everything and what gives it meaning and value. What kind of person I want to be in this world, the relationships I have with other people, are what matters most to me. My goals are not about a career, that's an activity which we do, not who we are. My concern is about the quality of my humanity, the practices and disciplines that support it, and my expression of it in this world.
What's harder in life? Living a life in which your ethics and morals must be constantly compromised to achieve other people's ideas of financial success and high social standing within society? Or living by one's own accord with less money and little recognition while knowing that your integrity remains intact and without regrets?
@@NicholeHastings
You seem like an incredibly cool individual, I'm glad I read your comments.
@@Crackpot_Astronaut Thank you, and thanks for reading them.
I had similar experience. I studied in Western Europe for a Master's degree and was considering a PhD in GIS (traditionally very male-dominated thing). I was offered it, but I refused. The reasons were many, of course, but one of them actually was because I didn't know if they wanted me for merit or because I was a girl and in this country there were very "advanced" rules on diversity and % of girls in STEM. I mean eventually I didn't want it enough, otherwise I would have taken the opportunity, but the fact that I doubted myself because of this "affirmative action" amazes me! It is interesting because finishing my Bachelor's degree just 2 years before in Eastern Europe I never had such a thought. I always knew that whatever I've done was my work and even if some (very few) teachers were joking about how girls are going to get married and not go further in studies (again, not in kind of malitious way), it never bothered me. It made me more determined. I was smirking internally to these comments like "Yeah, we see how it goes :)))))
The problem with race based admissions (affirmative action) was that it didn't benefit those whose family history were actually oppressed in America. I forget the name of the study, but I remember reading that the majority of black people admitted into colleges were first generation African-Americans or west indies black people, not American blacks.
I agree but would add that it actually largely benefitted white women
Yeah, and not even that, but that study or another one (or maybe Thomas Sowell), showed that the graduation rate was significantly lower amongst those American blacks and I think latino too, because they actually were lacking academically. So it was actually doing them a dis-service having them admitted to a higher degree at a higher level college, because they didn't get the degree, rather than if they went for an easier degree (say nurse vs doctor, or civil engineer vs nuclear engineer) at a lower level uni (where the bar to get the degree is lower) and actually graduating.
Its also a stupid argument on the face of it, because this kid and liberals have no problem discriminating against Asians whilst admitting they work harder, yet at the same time they blame slavery from 200 years ago and red-lining from 60yrs ago for the poor performance of black kids in inner city schools rather than the fact the black students just don't pay attention in class or study, the polar opposite of what Asians do. It also doesn't explain how then first generation immigrants, many of whom have ACTUALLY experienced slavery or direct racism coming from Nigera or Sierra Leone etc, do so much better despite having some of the worst circumstances on the planet.
@@joshuadalton6063 the detriment and trauma slavery in the west (and racist policies afterwords) has put on black people and their current culture today is why many of these issues exist imo. Creating the grounds of equal opportunity doesn't really matter when someone else who is financially better off attended the best daycare Montessori lol and extended math after-school programs. These kids don't grow up in environments that are detrimental to their education with shootings and drugs etc... therefore expecting the same outcome for the majority imo makes no sense. We are therefore dealing with a major cultural issue that Americans have to face.. In addition to poor economics which we all know was compounded through racist policy's from the past which obviously affects the future, the process of slavery and everything afterwords really destroyed their culture and replaced it with something much worse. This is why Africans in general do much better regardless of their hardships.. they still have an identity/ culture that they pull from.
@@Chatillgbt Black americans were doing far better in the 40s and 50s, during actual racist times, than they were in the 90s or now, Post Jim Crow and changes to laws like red-lining. The racist policy causing the biggest impact right now is those that came from the 1964s economic opportunity act which directly caused the destruction of the black american family. It certainly has led to a drug and gang culture, but it wasn't slavery that caused that, and the African immigrants also come from countries facing the same problems but they don't have the victim mindset which is why they succeed. Ultimately all I hear is excuses about how the past was bad or how XYZ life isn't fair, rather than taking some accountability for poor choices they continue to make every day whilst blaming everyone else for those choices.
About the question on unconscious biases, I think one thing a society can do to make it absolutely worst is to put those people who are being allegedly unconsciously discriminated agains, in positions that can be judged by themselves or others as unearned or undeserved, this will just perpetuate or exaggerate any unconscious bias that may exist in the society
It was interesting hearing this brought up. I thought it was a good point because historically it is true. My problem with the student bringing it up is that they are not current with how society has already moved. My own anecdotal experience is showing that applicants are now being considered based solely on their race and their name. My wife has been part of a hiring committee for her school district to hire teachers and principles. My wife is a minority, we both grew up in an urban city and went to the same schools. My wife is highly respected in her role because of her merit and intelligence. She does work with predominantly white people. While my wife is going through applications and taking notes on applicants schooling, job history and what they want to bring to the district. While her white co workers are literally saying, "I love this name" or after the interview when asked what they thought of the applicant, they say, "I loved that they were a black woman".
Point is, especially in the education system, which is evident by what we see in most of these videos, the idea that we are to completely throw out merit of an applicant based solely on race is a detriment. In no way is it helpful or conducive to consider race as part of an application. Saying that doesn't excuse or change the fact that it wasn't a determining factor in the past. I believe that society has moved on culturally from thinking that way. To tell a student or applicant that they only got in because of their skin color and not their merit and that by allowing student to attend a school that doesn't fit their academic ability is not helping them. I went to a tech school, I could have gone to a traditional public school. I would have failed traditional school. It doesn't fit for me. I went to a community college. I wouldn't succeed at Dartmouth, it wouldn't fit me. If a student applies to Dartmouth it is their merit and qualifications alone that should decide if they get in. The rigor of education provided at Dartmouth is going to be significantly different than the rigor of education at a community college. By allowing a student without the ability to thrive will leave them with high debt and a failing grade in their classes. There are poor uneducated white people, and there are poor uneducated minorities. There are rich educated white people and there are rich educated minorities.
It's 'Unconscious' which means that people can NOT control that certain Bias...which is very different from a Conscious Bias which can be Modified through Behavior and Situational Adjustments/Therapies (for lack of a better term).
@@Dragonstalon1001 can you explain how someone can unconsciously decide they don't like something related to the perception of someone's race based on a name? I would assume that they already had a bias and apply it when they believe that the name is attached to a specific race. Unconscious bias doesn't exist. Either you have it or you don't.
@@Mr.Wongburger It's Unconscious, meaning you have NO CONTROL over it. The only things you can control are CONSCIOUS Biases. One happens that you are Unaware of, while the other happens when you are Aware of it.
@@Dragonstalon1001 No I understand the fundamental premise of of unconscious bias as it is being taught. I'd like to understand how anyone can think that a bias can be unconscious? Because when I think of something being an unconscious action I think of things like breathing or my heart beating. There seems to be an irrational, in my opinion, change in the fundamental way we perceive other peoples actions. To me, when I'm told that someone has an unconscious bias, in reality I assume they were already bias by choice. Either they were raised that way or they had a lived experience that changed them. But at the end of the day they choose to look at a name and go, "nope not that one". That is a conscious choice.
The fact this even in the realm of discussion tells me just how poor some people are at thinking critically. You don’t allow people who are disabled physically to jump the line, you make it possible for them to navigate everywhere there need or want to be. We must have equal opportunity and then let natural competition take over.
I get into university. I don't do my work, waste time, don't go to class etc. My outcome won't be favorable but its because of the system that I'm failing. You only have to look at the disparity to see the injustice.
?
Well the thing you have to think about is African Americans make up 12.4% of the population and make up 12.7% of College undergrads. Hispanic make up 18.7 of the population and 21.7 of undergraduate so were the huge disparity
To the left, they're only talking about positions of power so in this instance, they're referring to the elite colleges. Jordan Peterson had a humorous example with regards to women with his bricklayer argument. The vast majority are men so should we account for the disparity and try to have more female bricklayers?
You should do a topic on if Affirmative Action should be applied in professional sports and if not, why it should only be applied to schools and certain jobs and not professional sports. Would be very interesting to see peoples opinions on this.
💯
We've literally seen activists make the case that rocket science should be made less hard because it's racist. I wish I was joking. To simultaneously think you can do rocket science without doing rocket science is Monty python level absurdity but to also be that cut and dry racist you think other ethinicty don't have the cognitive ability or potential to learn rocket science is hysterical, especially as it's coming from a place of virtue signalling.
@@mathewszulman7659 This is already applied to our police force, the athleticism and skills required have been substantially reduced in order to accommodate women and fat people, all in the name of equality. Woke hiring policies bring equality DOWN to the lowest common denominator and everybody suffers for it.
I’ve written about this in the past. It’s a great claim!
Interesting question but it would never be applied. Pro sports is about making money not political feelings
He straight up said as long as people's outcomes are different, opportunity is necessarily unequal. That's the most insane thing he could say.
I really like these types of debates and think they help both sides understand where others are coming from as well as their own arguments. However, I think there may be too many option variations. If you took out "agree" and "disagree" that would be better overall in my opinion. However, I do like how you added questions from the audience. Great job Mr Boghossian!
I would argue that the guy on the Strongly Disagree was not listening to the guys on the Strongly Agree. He was too busy telling people how oppressed minorities are, and as a white male he should know.
I think it’s more accurate to look at these is discussions rather than debates.
The whole purpose of the varying degrees of agree or disagree are for the individual to gage how strongly they feel on the matter. A lot of times with debates if one individual is looked at as the “opponent” then that other person might tend to dig their heals in because they aren’t supposed to concede ground or points to the opponent. If instead someone looks down and admits “I only slightly agree” with this statement then they will be more open to information and opinions. This paired with reinforcement of “why did you pick your specific line” really makes the individual consider their stance and what supporting information or thoughts go into it.
"They are put into districts..."
Who is putting anyone in districts. He acts like there is a big white arm reaching out and picking up black people like on a chess board and moving them around at will.
The same white hand that makes them shoot each other and at cops.
They should have asked Jordan if he would give up his spot at Darrmouth so that a lower-qualified black student can enroll.
They should have asked him why he selected to wear an Einstein shirt instead of one with a random poc
Or ask him to give up an A grade to bring up another student's C to a B
What’s the TRUE meaning of LIFE? Is it all about WINNING the “RAT RACE”, often called "SUCCESS"? or to SEEK HAPPINESS? or just to SURVIVE another day?
Shouldn’t college admissions be based on merit? Just like getting considered for a job at google or getting drafted by the nba. If I am a business owner I would want to hire the best talent, no matter the race, gender etc. This will give me the best chance to succeed. Affirmative action as not been shown to be helpful. It puts many of these students in situations where they may not excel as well. Thanks again Peter for bringing these important topics to light.
That guy is a great student since he learned everything he was told and is able to repeat back word for word without actually his own opinion
He has an argument for his argument. The look on Pete's face says it all.
I like how Mr. Boghossian urgently challenges students to honestly confront and own their own positions and defend them.
To eliminate discrimination, we need to discriminate.
Herein is an oxymoron.
It's like when you run a foot race. EVERYONE starts at the same spot. Equal opportunity. The race begins, and it's up to each person as to who crosses the finish line. This isn't "give-a-medal-to-all" . It's Equal opportunity.
Correct. To use your example, this is the basis for Marxism. Ie everyone is expected to run as slow as the slowest runner.
What if one is a professional athlete and one is a young child?
Did you miss the point of the debate? You are starting from the premise that everyone is equal. This is clearly not true. And don't try to naturalize inequality because there is a degree to which we can fight inequality and, in doing so, produce an equal playing field.
I am genuinely curious if my own bias makes me see this incorrectly, but it would appear to me that every time the liberal side of the argument speaks, they START with sounding a bit upset, rushed, and out of breath. How can you have a real conversation with someone if you're starting in your negative emotions.
Please let me know if there are obvious examples of those on the conservative side who start conversations that way so that I can correct my view.
This is a core problem when confronted with arguments or supporting ideas. There is a layer of frustrated judgement that does not serve to convince those you are discussing or an audience.
I have a number of ideals that are left leaning that I have been able to convince people slightly on because I present them in a calm and clear non judgemental way.
I see some hardline conservatives falling into this as well when discussing vaccines, abortion, Trump impeachment, etc.
Note also excessive hand gestures.
Because they aren't listening to you they are waiting for you to stop so they can spew all the buzzwords and opinions they have been brainwashed with.
@@devonmarr9872 Thank you for your input. Now that you mention it, I have seen those conservatives behave that way, but it's typically at rallies or protests where everyone is more likely to be amped up anyway.
TBH, most of my peer group consists of left-leaning moderates. I'm a right-leaning moderate, but we're all close enough on most issues, that I don't typically see the heat in my personal conversations.
The liberal side of the argument is the 2 gentleman on the agree side
Here is what you do...rather than judging people by race, judge them by their own individual, personal backgrounds, and provide assistance where individuals have merit, but lack the economic resources required.
13:40, "no equal opportunity with out equal outcomes." There is no reason to listen to an ideologue any further as nothing constructive maybe gained for everyone.
Interesting that we have heard this exact same redlining argument at a few different institutions using the exact same words. Is it coming from the same source? You can have equality of outcome or equality of opportunity. Not both.
Measuring the outcome to determine if the opportunity is equal is logically incorrect. This could only be the case if every human was the exact same and came from the exact same background and had the exact same drives and motivations. Just because outcomes are not equal you cannot assume that opportunities are therefor not equal. They COULD be but one isn't directly dependent on the other. Some people (in all races and genders) can be given all of the opportunities possible, and still not have the correct drive, values or ambition to succeed. That is why humans are complex. This type of thinking is scary.
Good points
Interestingly, if you force outcomes to end the same, that does NOT mean the opportunities were equal. In fact, I think it ensures that they were not. Meaning, it would require extreme bias in the selection process to get everyone to end the ame (baed on demographic), and these people would have no problem with it. NO
@@caseyjudson1062 I completely agree. And the people who disagree, I find they have a different definition of equal or fair. They see fair as everyone getting the same output, no matter how much they input. While others, including myself, see equal or fair to mean getting an output equal to your amount of input. Kind of a crude way to describe it but that seems to roughly be the underlying difference.
💯
Problem with the 'strongly disagree ' camp, is that they don't have solution and yet not ready to reason to find solution. Just stuck at equal outcome like broken record.
2 siblings in a home cannot have equal outcome, only the equal opportunity to both siblings can be ensured by parents.
These conversations were hard to listen to, on one level. But so important. If you disagree with some of the people speaking on a topic, take the time to sit down and write out your thoughts. Articulating, your opinions and observations is a great way strengthen your own argument, you may also discover ways that the person you disagree with was right on some level. This is the only way to coexist with people who think differently than we do. We must relearn how to listen to each other.
Comments are being shadowbanned.
@ Blob Monster
Keep trying. Change a word or series of words to try and bamboozle YT's faulty algorithm.
As a person of color, an immigrant, I oppose the consideration of race in college admissions process. Rather, I believe they should look consider social/economy class of one applicant, his/her zip code. A lot of people who were born to poor families and live in bad areas do try very hard to get better in life. They deserve higher education. This way we can eliminate racial debate in college admissions process, but still can emphasize on equality of opportunity for minorities. Same for disabled students. I even think those students whose parents are in military service should also be considered, or even those who live with only one parent. But that's my opinion
This young man who disagrees has never felt the warmth of a woman's bosom.
"The only way to measure equality of opportunity is through the measure of equality of outcome". Does he even realize how incredibly ignorant this statement is? Just wow.....
I just received my copy of Agency: The Four Point Plan for All Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover their Pathway to Power. by Ian Rowe. Hoping for some workable suggestions.
There is no equal opportunity without equal outcome.. what the hell does that mean?
That's such a dangerous statement. Equality of outcome is a great way to disregard consideration of where people want to be and where their competencies are, and to then put them in places they do not belong. Something ends up majority white because of cultural affinity - ok, so what? There's a presupposition that that's a problem, when it needn't be.
Whatever this circular fallacy means, I strongly disagree.
It means that he is an idiot
Disparity in representation doesn’t automatically equal discrimination. Is the NBA racist against all non-black players since 81% of the NBA is black whereas only 13% of the general population is black? Is the Scripps National Spelling Bee racist for having a disproportionate representation of Asian kids? If we as a society do our best to implement colorblind admission processes in all aspects of life (school, work, leisure, etc) then the results simply are what they are.
Dang this is so interesting, can you do this at a non college adult club? Like maybe a local democratic chapter or republican chapter, or a company outside their work hours?
Excellent idea.
Yup. We should be going on another tour next year!
Some believe only certain races should be be promoted, while others are demoted. They believe in their feelings of moral superiority. They essentially believe they can use any means that feel they they can get away with.
Yea it's call authoritarians, communists, weak people that hunger for power for power sake since they think society will respect them more. It all stems from personal insecurities and values ingrained during childhood.
yeah, we call those people racist.
Agree. Any word salad, without justification of the claims being made.
I'd like to ask "How many white people should be deprived of opportunity in order to correct for the past injustices perpetrated by people they aren't even necessarily related to?"
@@dafunkmonster This vindictiveness goes far beyond the immoral idea of punishing the son for the sins of the father.
I seen this disagree dude before. Pretty sure he was talking with Destiny (a political streamer) aswell. He seems to have not thought out his view points. At least that is always how it appears to me.
he has all the talking point
You hit the nail on the head because Destiny is a big time leftist. I've seen him debate before and he always uses the same leftist talking points which are based on pure emotion and feelings not reality.
i fully understand what the guy in the glasses is saying. and it makes comete sense if you view the world like i assume he does. the problem is that is impossible to prove. props to everyone for getting up there and having a discussion in a mature fashion
The key, regardless of race, is to ensure that ALL students across the entire country are provided a high-quality education. School funding shouldn't be based on income levels of communities, poor teachers/professors should be able to be fired, and school choice should be made available to all parents.
@Quietcastle has all the answers…Dude set an example and let a less qualified person rise above you and your coddled children!! Come on know it all out your privilege where your mouth is!! Dope!! No of course you wouldn’t cause your a faker and bullshitter!! I can’t wAit till your offspring says “Daddy why didn’t I get into Dartmouth when a POC who did a lot less well than I did got in??” Waaahhhh!! “We’ll son/daughter that’s what equality of out come is…advancement not on merit but in their race, gender, etc.!!
I review scholarship applications for the University of California. The applications are gathered and distributed online with no ability to see the race of the applicant unless they disclose it in their written essays.
And the process happens to be run by people who are not white. They kindly remind us of what to and not to consider. We are allowed to consider the economic hurdles they are or will overcome.
Oh, and names are eliminated from the applications.
@@AldoDonnisto why no whites?
@@edwinamendelssohn5129 I'm not aware of any reason. Just thought I'd offer that up. Maybe I shouldn't have disclosed that either. I thought it was managed well
@@AldoDonnisto thanks
If i give 2 random people a basketball and had them shoot hoops. I split 100$ between them based on their scores.
If one gets 25$ and the other gets 75$, would this guy seriously say one had an inequal opportunity? I biased the basketballs?
Yikes
My junior year in high school I got into a conversation with a student of Mexican descent about the upcoming enrollment towards college and I was first introduced to affirmative action. Now I have been in the special education classification 504 since fifth grade, and was there by allowed extra time on tests and one or two other concessions that ostensibly were there to help me succeed academically... And I found them to be useful if also slightly inclining me towards leaning into the advantages they provided. Me being typically shortsighted and certifiably underachieving thought that whatever helps the powers that be we're presenting would be a net positive and (though I had zero actual knowledge of any historical/cultural repression) , easy to accept concession.
I was blown away by the vociferous and charged response that she gave emotionally and even more so was gobsmacked by her reasoning; that being that she personally had worked hard, very hard and had poured an incredible amount of time and effort into her scholastic achievement, and was in fact insulted by the very idea of affirmative action as was her family opposed to it. She didn't need some cuddling crutch for her to be successful and could not out of principle accept any sort of easements to her successful application to a college of her choice. It was an incredible conversation for me because I was struck blindsided at the necessary connotations and diminishment of one's efforts that I had been saddled with, to the point of not only blindly and blithely going along with what the"specialist educators" we're instilling in me. It was humbling and embarrassing and I had to step by step awkwardly articulate on the spot to this young woman that I had never even conceived of that level of self-respect and self-belief... And that in no way shape or form did I think that she needed the help because she somehow wouldn't have been able to do it on her own.
Luckily God loves fools and children of which I was both and I ended up having conversation much later into the night and I meant to with her and her mother father to uncles and Aunt in which they cleared out the ignorant cobwebs of youth and expounded together and then on my behalf to me what one is capable of with the proper organization of one's community and one's perspective. We all had a good laugh about it also the look on my face when she snapped at me. Also it was this very instance that begin my journey to untangling myself from the invegling and insidious negative attentions and affectations of Texas special education policy.
The ways in which an oppression narrative can be hooked on to evolving and maturing perspectives is truly harrowing. So much fuel is going on to the fire of resentful attitudes and of a paranoid hypervigilance that, burn bright as a guiding light for many many years in these growing men and women... But then abandons them burnt out and shell shocked.
This is one that really hit home for me… I grew up in a home that was considered middle class… But barely… When I was admitted into the University I attended my parents made just a few hundred dollars more than what was considered poor lower class… so being white and considered ‘middle class’ the loans and scholarships I was able to get to assist me were limited…And of course my father lost his job while I was in school during my first semester, so the scholarships and grants that I could get were minimal compared to what they could have been… If I had just gone to school year later… I also had an African American roommate who ended up getting a full ride just because of his ethnicity… I ended up paying everything that wasn’t covered by my few scholarships(which wasn’t much) out of my own pocket because my parents couldn’t help me. I went tens of thousands of dollars in debt and today I’m still paying that off almost 20 years later.
He was super defensive from the start…. He likely spent more energy looking for his que to cry victim than he did on his position. ALL the umms and pauses went away when he tries to dig in.
@Peter Boghossian Let's see one that focuses on the similarities between wanting to help POC and how it resembles thinking less of POC. The right would argue that it's infantilization while the left tends to believe in today's world they need help.
We’re always entertaining new claims. We’ll also release videos showing how these claims were generated-they are (almost) entirely generated by audience members.
@@drpeterboghossian Keep up the great work Peter. I think what you are all doing is so critical in today's cultural climate. I'm a Canadian citizen in the process of immigrating to the USA where my wife is from. What happens in American culture tends to bleeding into Canada not long after. Critical thinking is like a muscle that deteriorates if not exercised, so well done making all of these people engage not only with the ideas of others but with their own ideas as well.
I strive to keep an open mind, hence my appreciation for these debates. Kudos sir.
The best way to end racism is stop talking about race. Your race should be as important as your hair color.
The strongly disagree person actually mentioned what I would perceive as the real issue without addressing his own phrasing. That issue is economic privilege. One of the questions brought this up.
If you want to move away from the effects of a previously racist system, then you should target areas that disproportionately populated by disparaged races. If there is a disproportionate affiliation of historically oppressed races in the area of poverty, then by granting free admissions to people from poor families you would also disproportionately lift up those races that have been afflicted. Of course, there still must be a standard of academic achievement regardless of the programs availability.
As an aside to that, if there is “systemic racism,” then that would be demonstrated through the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of said program. And even then, you’d have to look at the learning opportunities of the individuals as well as the promoted ideals in their homes in order to confirm the theory.
That student is severely lost in his own mind on this issue as he himself couldn’t even recognize when he made the observation about poverty, and still found it necessary to focus entirely on race. Money is a much bigger factor than anything else in western society in terms of upward momentum. And there are poor people of all colours that suffer from that fact.
Giving people the ability to become accredited in education without earning it is highly undesirable for a number of reasons as it will only lower the standards while creating distrust in our institutions - something we are all painfully aware of in these trying times.
Yes. Get race out of it forever.
FOREVER!!!
Simple answer, but too many people would die on the hill of perpetual unending systematic racism.
@@mustang607 Systemic racism doesn't exist.
@@iwatchyoutube9610 Affirmative action is a system practicing systematic racism.
@@mustang607 True, but not in the way idiotic libs believe
St. Peter, the Patron Saint of Patience & Tolerance in the face of pure and utter nonsense.
"You can't have equality of opportunity without equality of outcome"....WOW....How do you explain two siblings in the same house that end up at two different "outcomes" with their lives?
My sister and I both grew up together with clearly the same opportunities and support mechanisms. My sister is now 44 and I am 41, she still has no high school diploma, has never owned a home of her own and makes less that $30k/yr whereas I have a Bachelor's degree, have owned several of my own homes and make over six figures.
Equality of opportunity will naturally lead to different outcomes as people make different choices...and there is nothing wrong with that. Equality of outcome would actually be at the detriment of many people, both women and "POC".
Why is it that the two better dressed and groomed persons argued better.
1:57 hate to say it, but it seems to be a common tell/stereotype... folks in this camp do get more emotional, and they don't know how to dial it down to a level that's appropriate to the situation or venue. First two guys are pretty chill. The other guy, well look: 17:02
Culture is not a system. Systems are inter-objective and external phenomenon, while cultures are internal and inter-subjective. This is a big conflation that I see everywhere today
Yes*
Class and economic status should play a core role. Separating just on race or having race be a primary factor has been used to discriminate against Asian students and put people into schools that would otherwise not get in than leave them high and dry with support so they do not succeed where if they had gone to a lower school would have thrived.
Using color as a proxy for economic status results in perverse outcomes. The Obama girls would be eligible for admission preferences based on their ethnicity, in spite of going to excellent private schools and having wealthy parents with law degrees, one of whom was President. They're assumed to be less privileged than working-class public school white kids, who would have to meet higher standards to get in.
I think you meant “without support,” not with support. I apologize if I misread your comment.
@@spiritmatter1553 you are correct. It was a typo
Ah, the personal attack route…
College applications should be assigned a number. No Name No Sex No race. The best qualified should be accepted..
I think the college administration process should be without name, race, sex, national origin or religious affiliation. Students should be admitted by achievements and merit.
I think an interesting prompt would be "Has globalization created a better world?"
I have noticed "globalists" have become unpopular among many on both sides of the isle.
That’s doable. We’ll incorporate that tomorrow in the basket of claims.
If every staff member, board member, teacher etc were to be a POC in a school or district, would the system there still be racist?
eventually. y u think there is discrimination in homogenous countries. it solves nothing. people find the next thing. if it's not colour it's hirght. looks,
Equal outcomes (equity) and equal opportunity can ONLY both be achieved if EVERY aspect of each person's life is completely controlled and regulated according to the person with the lowest natural ability.
In other words, equity is antithetical to freedom.
They don't care about freedom. In fact they hate it. Wouldn't surprise me if that dude was a socialist.
Bro listening to the gentleman with glasses was a mental workout
"You're ignoring the real fact" "The playing field is so unequal" "The houses where built to discriminate." Wow, just lots of opinion purported as fact... Even stating that asian people studying more shouldn't justify unequal outcomes in educational performance, so his viewpoint is that behavior doesn't affect educational performance, but just make those outcomes equal or things are unfair.
I feel that creating equal opportunity (not outcome) needs to happen very early, not in the college admission process. So, we as a society need to deal with poverty and wealth inequality. How we deal with that is up for quite a bit of debate of course. But start with supporting children, providing security, good nutrition and education to them. You're kind of fucked in this world when you get a shitty start. College isn't a start. It's a path for *some* people (I'd argue probably not for most people).
Dartmouth seems to have changed...???...I really thought you would have had a packed room for this debate and exchange of viewpoints...That does surprise me...I personally loved the concerted shared of a holistic approach with only numbers assigned rather than names. That would not remove the other details of an applicant which get shared on applications, but gender, race, and income should not be determining factors in higher education in my view of it...
If I were to form a circle in my brain, and run around it with my own circular thoughts, I'd be as dizzy as that kids too.
Obviously we should only judge people by the color of their skin, and not by the content of their character, as MLK stated, according the to be revised postmodern marxist history.