It would be good for everyone especially leaders in church to understand and be trained in psychology/abnormal psychology etc. This will greatly help to protect everyone to be able to identify potential manipulation and abuse, including couples walking into an abusive marriage (pre marital counseling, trauma counseling, marriage counseling, etc) and helping others walk out and be restored from traumas caused by Narcissistic Abuse.
@@wildpasta narcissistic leaders are aplenty in leadership position in the society not just in the church context. However not all leaders are narcissistic. Not all narcissists become leaders as well. It’s all around us. Most narcissists don’t even know the extent or harm they cause to others by their manipulation, gaslighting, etc. Our culture and religion also somehow taught us to pledge allegiance and endure abuse. By getting trained psychologically, and knowing the dynamics, it can help to sift out some of these traits and bring it to light and give protection to the people who are under such abuse
Psychology is just a tool to resolve but it cannot protect against manipulation. I believe it is even more important for each and every Christian to be well equipped in biblical literacy. Without knowledge of the truth; we will not have a benchmark to test and measure what is being said and done. Without a benchmark, how will you know one is being manipulated. Truth protects us from being deceived and manipulated. Not psychology
Thank you for sharing Pastor Jon. Is so real what you shared, I have experienced abuse of prophecy and also rudeness from pastor but at different church as well. It did affected me a long time and took long time to heal. I did not leave my faith but was disappointed with people. I truly understand the pain. But throughout the years now, I learned we don't see people for their title or authority or label themselves as believers, but to watch the fruits they bear. Similarly that applies in our own life , to remind ourself to bear good fruits as a follower of Christ. This message is a reminder for all who are serving and all who are believers to watch how we carry ourself and bearing good fruits.
Thank you brother for sharing your past experience though it is not easy. What you have went through, I experienced about all of it as well. Just that I am not a full time staff in the church. However that didn't still cover the fact that my previous church pastor and leaders were spiritually abusive towards all of the church members in the church. I was also blind by being dedicated to the church's activities and would be marked as "rebellious" if not being able to attend any church activities. But it hit me hard when I noticed that the cousin of the pastor started to spread false rumors about me. Initially I thought it was just a misunderstanding and left it at that for years till 2017, I noticed that many church members left and hurt because of her. In my mind I always remembered the pastor taught us not to defame even though the person has sinned. And there it happened, the pastor's cousin spread false rumors, defame others. For my last few years before I left the church at year end of 2019, I couldn't take in any sermon preached on every Sunday. But I thank God because after I left the church and move on to another church, my eyes are opened and experienced the goodness of God I have never experience before. In all things, God is good all the time. Amen.
Thank you for sharing courageously and openly, Jon. I am sorry to learn what you had to go through. I cannot imagine how hard and heartbreaking for you in many ways. I am glad you're doing better now. Take care, bro.
Thanks Pastor Andy for unpacking and attempting to process this sensitive topic. Kudos to Jon for the courage to put his story out there. May God's blessing continue to abound in your lives.
What you said about the leaders are religious practice. If you walk in the word of God, you submit to God not to men. You will know what is right or wrong . Even the leaders are supposed to walk with God and love their flocks and not to manipulate them but to build them up to walk in Jesus's way. Sadly not all church people knows the word of God well and they go by what the church leaders tell them to do. If you know the word of God, you will know and not submit to leaders who manipulate you. I will avoid such leaders or even leave the church if they are not walking in God's way.
I still have a physical copy of letter sign by the leader of the previous church. A list of few things i cant do.... one of it, not to talk to girls. i need to go and find that.. hahaha...
Amen. It's so good to hear love with truth. 1 Corinthians 13:6 ERV Love is never happy when others do wrong, but it is always happy with the truth. Walk with Jesus and not human's approval always. ❤ Again, God is looking at our hearts and only He knows how much faith we have. Not the system even as human fails and not repent. Secularism and spiritual warfare is much more real than we want to address. Simple simple less competition or complexity 😅
To both to you i say and to put it kindly, repent and forgive as you have both have been forgiven. You both have a long way to go. Everyone has a different learning curve, and you both still haven't got the real point yet. In simple terms, yall late bloomers & i pray you'll both bloom sooner than later.
Hi Pastor Mike! I know you! But we've not met each other in person since I was a little kid when I first saw you :) Thank you for your commendation and encouragement. Much to learn from you too!
Gosh, politics is everywhere even God's House. When the church is drawn to the secular world when it's not supposed to be. It is meant to be the other way, most of all, be close d to God and therefore we r not of this world.
John 3.19KLV Men loved darkness rather than light. Can you put trust on men? i still remember saturday at 5. No sermon No sermon No sermon for almost 3months. Main pastor sleeping on the job.
My people perish for lack of knowledge. Follow Jesus Christ only, not man.Jesus say, no man is good only God. Meaning, even a person call himself a Pastor, a Reverend ( which is irreverent),a Pope or any church leaders. Don't touch God's anointed is a misquoted verse by leaders who are insecure. When we are sensitive to the holy spirit and his word. We will never be afraid of any insure leaders. My personal advice to all who have been hurt by leaders, don't look to man but to Jesus Christ and his teaching.
To both to you i say and to put it kindly, repent and forgive as you have both have been forgiven. You both have a long way to go. Everyone has a different learning curve, and you both still haven't got the real point yet. In simple terms, late bloomer and i pray you'll both bloom sooner than later.
I think they both handled it well. This is a needed topic to speak on. There are actually more who have experienced some of the same things in ministry and it is comforting to know that they can still brave it out and still speak the goodness of Jesus even through that process.
@@steventeng1162 to create awareness. To educate the church and christian leaders that spiritual abuse is something that is real. And for those who have experienced trauma, that there is hope for healing. And also, the idea of church is still valid.
@@DeconTheMonkeyexperienced, maybe. But in having the right perspective or having breakthrough - no. If one has truly achieved that, the fruits are clear. You'd glorify God, not your trauma. A victorious life & God would be on the pedestal. Not a victim mentality and the highlight of self. Get it right.
@@AhHongSk the mention of trauma does not have to be a sign that we glorify it. It is to give context. A lot of trauma healing is not a one size fits all healing story. A very good trauma story in the bible is Job. Most of us spend all our time is Chapter 1-2 and the ending of the book. But we miss the real meat in the middle of the conversation. If you actually read how Job speaks- what he says will make you uncomfortable and it seems like Job is glorifying his suffering because that is all he is speaking about. His three friends we more like defending God. But when you read that God rebukes his three friends and says that Job spoke the truth about God, for me that is something profound. I actually believe that as Christians, we are too quick to label pain that people go through as them just harping nonsense and we want to apply “trust in God la, apa mau cakap2 sakit ni.” There needs to be a mindshift and i believe the way to do this is to have conversations about it. If the mode of the church is to silence the icky parts of human life then we have done the gospel message a disservice. I know this wont convince you- but im just trying to get the idea across. Hopefully you can see light at the end of the tunnel when conversations like this crops up.
Says the person that bought my guitar for RM100 (worth 4 figures). Also correction, all churches are the same. Birds of the feather, flock together. I can’t imagine sharing a so called heaven with anybody from AG, heaven would be hell. Rather burn in hell if hell exist.
Matthew 12:36-37 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Be really careful of your words whether unintentional or otherwise. I do hope if you have anything to address in regards to the video content, you should address it in private, face to face with that person. God bless.
@@jkjy6471No need for the standard bible verse pasting, it hasn’t made the world a better place. :) Fun fact, the knowledge is public and it should be addressed as such. If you’re in denial, go take a year sabbatical fully paid by the church or the poor community funding these wheel of fortune. God Bless.
@@firefirefirekid no need simply means you are no different than a heretic for not allowing nor taking the time to understand. Hits a sore spot for ya. God bless you. Show photos with proof first that you did what you adviced.. then I'll believe ya good advice was well-intentioned.
It would be good for everyone especially leaders in church to understand and be trained in psychology/abnormal psychology etc. This will greatly help to protect everyone to be able to identify potential manipulation and abuse, including couples walking into an abusive marriage (pre marital counseling, trauma counseling, marriage counseling, etc) and helping others walk out and be restored from traumas caused by Narcissistic Abuse.
the problem is that many church leaders are indeed able to identify manipulation. they themselves manipulate.
They enjoy gaslighting and the PR answers 😢
@@wildpasta narcissistic leaders are aplenty in leadership position in the society not just in the church context. However not all leaders are narcissistic. Not all narcissists become leaders as well. It’s all around us. Most narcissists don’t even know the extent or harm they cause to others by their manipulation, gaslighting, etc. Our culture and religion also somehow taught us to pledge allegiance and endure abuse. By getting trained psychologically, and knowing the dynamics, it can help to sift out some of these traits and bring it to light and give protection to the people who are under such abuse
Psychology is just a tool to resolve but it cannot protect against manipulation. I believe it is even more important for each and every Christian to be well equipped in biblical literacy. Without knowledge of the truth; we will not have a benchmark to test and measure what is being said and done. Without a benchmark, how will you know one is being manipulated. Truth protects us from being deceived and manipulated. Not psychology
Thank you for sharing Pastor Jon. Is so real what you shared, I have experienced abuse of prophecy and also rudeness from pastor but at different church as well. It did affected me a long time and took long time to heal. I did not leave my faith but was disappointed with people. I truly understand the pain. But throughout the years now, I learned we don't see people for their title or authority or label themselves as believers, but to watch the fruits they bear. Similarly that applies in our own life , to remind ourself to bear good fruits as a follower of Christ. This message is a reminder for all who are serving and all who are believers to watch how we carry ourself and bearing good fruits.
Thank you brother for sharing your past experience though it is not easy. What you have went through, I experienced about all of it as well. Just that I am not a full time staff in the church. However that didn't still cover the fact that my previous church pastor and leaders were spiritually abusive towards all of the church members in the church. I was also blind by being dedicated to the church's activities and would be marked as "rebellious" if not being able to attend any church activities. But it hit me hard when I noticed that the cousin of the pastor started to spread false rumors about me. Initially I thought it was just a misunderstanding and left it at that for years till 2017, I noticed that many church members left and hurt because of her. In my mind I always remembered the pastor taught us not to defame even though the person has sinned. And there it happened, the pastor's cousin spread false rumors, defame others. For my last few years before I left the church at year end of 2019, I couldn't take in any sermon preached on every Sunday. But I thank God because after I left the church and move on to another church, my eyes are opened and experienced the goodness of God I have never experience before. In all things, God is good all the time. Amen.
Thank you for sharing courageously and openly, Jon. I am sorry to learn what you had to go through. I cannot imagine how hard and heartbreaking for you in many ways. I am glad you're doing better now. Take care, bro.
Thanks Pastor Andy for unpacking and attempting to process this sensitive topic. Kudos to Jon for the courage to put his story out there. May God's blessing continue to abound in your lives.
What you said about the leaders are religious practice. If you walk in the word of God, you submit to God not to men. You will know what is right or wrong . Even the leaders are supposed to walk with God and love their flocks and not to manipulate them but to build them up to walk in Jesus's way.
Sadly not all church people knows the word of God well and they go by what the church leaders tell them to do. If you know the word of God, you will know and not submit to leaders who manipulate you. I will avoid such leaders or even leave the church if they are not walking in God's way.
Thank you Pastor Andy and Pastor Jon …looking forward to the next dialogue session ……
bless u pastor jon... and pastor andy ,thanks for helping me even through the leadership that u had to go through... in jesus name.. amen
I still have a physical copy of letter sign by the leader of the previous church. A list of few things i cant do.... one of it, not to talk to girls. i need to go and find that.. hahaha...
more peaceful to be away from church drama
Amen. It's so good to hear love with truth.
1 Corinthians 13:6 ERV
Love is never happy when others do wrong, but it is always happy with the truth. Walk with Jesus and not human's approval always. ❤
Again, God is looking at our hearts and only He knows how much faith we have. Not the system even as human fails and not repent. Secularism and spiritual warfare is much more real than we want to address. Simple simple less competition or complexity 😅
This is good
To both to you i say and to put it kindly, repent and forgive as you have both have been forgiven. You both have a long way to go. Everyone has a different learning curve, and you both still haven't got the real point yet. In simple terms, yall late bloomers & i pray you'll both bloom sooner than later.
I do not know if I am known to Andy or John, but I want to commend you for sharing your experience in such a redemptive and honest manner.
Hi Pastor Mike! I know you! But we've not met each other in person since I was a little kid when I first saw you :) Thank you for your commendation and encouragement. Much to learn from you too!
Thanks Andy. May the Lord make Genesis a house of healing for the weary and broken. If Christ is exalted, that is what it will be.
Sorry! I called you Genesis church.
@@imhatjino worries! That’s a good name too 😊👍🏼
Gosh, politics is everywhere even God's House. When the church is drawn to the secular world when it's not supposed to be. It is meant to be the other way, most of all, be close d to God and therefore we r not of this world.
John 3.19KLV Men loved darkness rather than light. Can you put trust on men? i still remember saturday at 5. No sermon No sermon No sermon for almost 3months. Main pastor sleeping on the job.
Lol kong sai style intro😅😅 ....yo was he introvert as a leader, oh my
Hey do your meet? Where if you do
My people perish for lack of knowledge. Follow Jesus Christ only, not man.Jesus say, no man is good only God. Meaning, even a person call himself a Pastor, a Reverend ( which is irreverent),a Pope or any church leaders.
Don't touch God's anointed is a misquoted verse by leaders
who are insecure.
When we are sensitive to the holy spirit and his word. We will never be afraid of any insure leaders.
My personal advice to all who have been hurt by leaders, don't look to man but to Jesus Christ and his teaching.
To both to you i say and to put it kindly, repent and forgive as you have both have been forgiven. You both have a long way to go. Everyone has a different learning curve, and you both still haven't got the real point yet. In simple terms, late bloomer and i pray you'll both bloom sooner than later.
I think they both handled it well. This is a needed topic to speak on. There are actually more who have experienced some of the same things in ministry and it is comforting to know that they can still brave it out and still speak the goodness of Jesus even through that process.
So what's the real point?
@@steventeng1162 to create awareness. To educate the church and christian leaders that spiritual abuse is something that is real. And for those who have experienced trauma, that there is hope for healing. And also, the idea of church is still valid.
@@DeconTheMonkeyexperienced, maybe. But in having the right perspective or having breakthrough - no. If one has truly achieved that, the fruits are clear. You'd glorify God, not your trauma. A victorious life & God would be on the pedestal. Not a victim mentality and the highlight of self. Get it right.
@@AhHongSk the mention of trauma does not have to be a sign that we glorify it. It is to give context. A lot of trauma healing is not a one size fits all healing story. A very good trauma story in the bible is Job. Most of us spend all our time is Chapter 1-2 and the ending of the book. But we miss the real meat in the middle of the conversation. If you actually read how Job speaks- what he says will make you uncomfortable and it seems like Job is glorifying his suffering because that is all he is speaking about. His three friends we more like defending God. But when you read that God rebukes his three friends and says that Job spoke the truth about God, for me that is something profound. I actually believe that as Christians, we are too quick to label pain that people go through as them just harping nonsense and we want to apply “trust in God la, apa mau cakap2 sakit ni.” There needs to be a mindshift and i believe the way to do this is to have conversations about it. If the mode of the church is to silence the icky parts of human life then we have done the gospel message a disservice. I know this wont convince you- but im just trying to get the idea across. Hopefully you can see light at the end of the tunnel when conversations like this crops up.
Says the person that bought my guitar for RM100 (worth 4 figures).
Also correction, all churches are the same. Birds of the feather, flock together.
I can’t imagine sharing a so called heaven with anybody from AG, heaven would be hell. Rather burn in hell if hell exist.
AG stands for?
@@Gnawk82 AOG
Matthew 12:36-37 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Be really careful of your words whether unintentional or otherwise. I do hope if you have anything to address in regards to the video content, you should address it in private, face to face with that person.
God bless.
@@jkjy6471No need for the standard bible verse pasting, it hasn’t made the world a better place. :)
Fun fact, the knowledge is public and it should be addressed as such.
If you’re in denial, go take a year sabbatical fully paid by the church or the poor community funding these wheel of fortune. God Bless.
@@firefirefirekid no need simply means you are no different than a heretic for not allowing nor taking the time to understand.
Hits a sore spot for ya. God bless you.
Show photos with proof first that you did what you adviced.. then I'll believe ya good advice was well-intentioned.