Game and Watch mains are the type to fall to the ground at inhumanly fast speeds with their feet lifted up in the air whenever a minor inconvenience occurres.
Game and Watch mains are the type of people that commit war crimes in Krakow in 1945 and get away with it because no one was going to say anything about a few missing Poles.
Fun fact about the bowser glitch btw; it’s because the damage as well as the animation is based on weight. The heavier you are the more damage it does. But at the specific weight values of puff and GnW makes bowsers grab miss the frame where it’s supposed to hit because they skip it perfectly enough for the game to not correct it like it does with pichu.
The damage isn't based on weight, the actual speed of the throw is. How the throw works is that it has a hitbox and it has a throw. All of the damage comes from the hitbox, which is only active for one frame. Puff and GNW just so happen to have a weight value which skips the one frame where the hitbox is active, so the throw has no damage. PAL Melee fixed this by making the throw the same speed against the entire cast, so the only "fix" Game & Watch got was a change made to Bowser, not him. Even though the throw does damage to Game & Watch in PAL, the throw is actually considerably slower, so it isn't a pure hinderance to GNW.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank yeah I knew I was a bit off but I was tired and just wanted to ball park the idea off memory so it was it least roughly known why.
Ah yes, Melee Game & Watch. I guess being a buggy disaster fits his role in Subspace at least. Even still, I'd say he's one of Smash's defining weird characters, and I'm glad the Smash team actually managed to complete him in later games.
For me it's weird, Melee G&W is defo the least complete, but he's easily the most fun imo. Stuff like his old N-air and D-air alongside his kill moves that lost a lot of kill power in later games make this my favourite iteration of the character, despite his issues
So many characters in melee would be more viable if their weaknesses weren't down to "Oh, sorry! The moveset you ordered doesn't actually work. We'll have to reorder but they won't come in until the next installment."
I feel like you could explain why G&W is bad to 100 different mains of him and 95 of them would respond with "haha funny 9 lol." And I respect it, it's a good reason to play a character
as the best active melee G&W player in the world, this is a great video! i really like how you focus on the strengths of his offense and the weakness of his defense. but, there are some minor nitpicks and notes that might serve as good accompaniments to your detailed analysis! - regarding his defense, perhaps the most understated element that makes G&W so bad on defense is his combo weight. dying at 70% is one thing, there are a lot of characters that die at early %. but, they dont get combo'd like G&W does. fox up-throw -> up-air true combos G&W well into the ~115% range, and it kills him at 70%. it's not like with Jigglypuff, where once you're past 85%, up-throw up-air is pretty much off the board. this is true of many, many, many kill setups in melee. G&W dies to them early, but they still combo him well into late%. it's unfortunate. - regarding throws, while you're correct that up- and down-throw are definitely the 2 best, his f-throw and b-throw are useful for far more than just positioning. these grabs are amazing DI mix-ups, as if your opponent DIs in, spacies catch huge combos started by either up-tilt or down-smash (depending on %), and non-spacies take a free N-air. and if they DI out, no matter the character, they're offstage - which is where G&W shines most. all of his throws are extraordinarily useful in different scenarios. - regarding his smash attacks, up-smash and down-smash are pretty much flipped from how you outline them here. up-smash ends up being pretty much useless, as any anti-air qualities it has are far outshine by up-tilt, and its impressive shield-stun is relatively meaningless 99% of the time. down-smash however, serves as one of his most potent combo moves at low%, extending perfectly off of his ground game and serving as a legitimately amazing DI mix-up combo tool. - regarding his up-tilt, this move is honestly just really understated. against spacies, it is easily his 3rd best move (behind only f-air and d-tilt). it is one of the strongest anti-air tools in the game, and the follow-up tree that it creates is legitimately insane. at low% you either get grabs or more up-tilts into f-air/n-air. at mid% you get a free n-air to send offstage, and at high %, you get N-air to kill. against non-spacies it is significantly worse, but it is also a great tool vs. Peach and Jigglypuff, as G&W can struggle when directly below many characters due to his awful shield. up-tilt mitigates this weakness significantly, giving him an amazing anti-air vs Peach/Puff that kills Peach at around ~125% and Puff at around ~110%. overall, this video was really awesome and i love the detail you went into to shine some light on melee G&W. i don't want this comment to sound like a nitpicky hater because that's really not what i'm aiming to do. i just feel like i'd be remiss if i didn't throw some of my extensive G&W knowledge into the fold as well. if you dont believe any of what im saying, feel free to watch some of my sets and see how some of these things hold true in high level play!
Glad you enjoyed and thanks a ton for the insight! I really appreciate the feedback from a great player and don't worry about feeling nitpicky or anything, I really do appreciate this stuff and the more people that can see it the better 👌
You speak so clearly, the auto subs are almost one to one with what you're saying. As a person with an audio processing disorder, it's really appreciated!
tbh, i feel G&W could've been stronger if the devs had more time to design him. and maybe Ganondorf would've had his own moveset instead of being a Captain Falcon semiclone
this is a detailed moveset analysis, well-done! i love how G&W could totally be a good character if most of his moves just... worked LOL. i'd reckon he'd be at least a mid tier with functioning aerials + shield buff. it's very hard to make a small disjoint character bad in smash, but somehow Melee managed to do it.
Thank you! I do wonder a lot how a G&W with just those issues fixed would fit into Melee, I kinda hope that's how he turns out in Beyond Melee and isn't completely new
in casual gameplay i think hes one of the best characters right now because of his lack of utilization. i just play with friends, granted we all know how to DI and wavedash etc and G&W has served me well
I think Fighting Game Garbage could feature very poorly designed top tiers. Ice Climbers in Brawl are top two... because they have confirmable ToD chain grab on a lot of characters. Like they just 9-1 a lot of characters and I will swear to this day Meta Knight was the lesser of two evils in the top two and they did more to chase people out of Brawl than MK did. Like MK was incredibly op.... but he actually played a game of smash, the mirror was a really cool matchup that was very fun to watch, and he took skill to use optimally. IC chain grabs might be hard to learn, but I'd argue four free stocks for practicing chain grab set ups is an inordinate amount of payoff for the work. What a dumpster character who I'm glsd has faded into obscurity they deserved it.
And now they kinda suck in Ultimate. Shame. There's still some wicked stuff they can do by desyncing the two climbers' moves, but once again it's an inordinate amount of payoff (just in the opposite favour this time).
This is honestly an amazingly thorough analysis, this character has so many easy to miss positives and negatives that usually I don't see them all in one place. The only thing I could even think of that wasn't mentioned is his defense being made even worse by his janky tech roll animations, which are relatively easy to react to and punish compared to most characters. Every other interesting factoid of the character is covered, from the 0-frame-lag uptilt and incredible disjoint/duration of some of his moves, to the janky chaingrabs, terrible hitbox on 9, and weird issue with aerial Bucket. Really a solid, complete look at the character.
About the beginning of the video: According to Smash Ultimate's roster numbers, game and watch WAS the last character ever added to melee (ganondorf was 4th last, then mewtwo, then roy, then g&w). According to the debug menu's character order, he was 2nd last, then ganondorf. In either case, it was close to the very end, and the last non clone character.
Honestly Ultimate's fighter numbers are kinda arbitrary in a lot of ways, and either way certainly not representative of implementation order during development specifically. According to the wiki, for the case of Melee's unlockable characters their fighter numbers are just based on when you unlock the characters in Melee, and G&W is the last character you unlock in Melee.
Fighter numbers are based on when the fighters were annouched for the game more so than when they were put in. This includes both commercials and the order characters were unlocked. In melee G&W is the secret final character and not that many new comers were annouced before launch.
Ganondorf was the last character put in? No wonder they couldn't do better than a clone.(Though maybe it was a good thing since he is the most legendary clonecharacter of all time. Sure, he sucks in every game, but it is always fun to play him because actually winning with him is so incredibly satisfying.)
It's so funny to compare G&W's Melee down-smash, where you either explode or take 2 percent with no in-between, to the Ultimate version, where you usually get buried in the ground, but sometimes the game is nice enough to semi-spike you instead. That being said, though, it's interesting to see an overview like this as an Ultimate player, since even though G&W is a lot higher on the Ult tier list than the Melee one, he might've been even more ridiculous if he had some of his moves that got replaced over time like his old nair and fair.
I am so thankful he has bomb (which despite the jank, it's still a fantastic move and allows him to get free grabs at any percent) instead of card because he would legitimately be a top-tier contender instead of this weird counterpick I beat Pikachu but lose to Ike type beat
@@DinkyWaffle Yeah, the bomb is a pretty strong move, (to the point that it's more of a trade-off than an outright nerf) but Ultimate G&W with that disjointed fair would've been a menace. It was also a nice change just for the sake of move variety; the only other projectile aerials I can think of in Smash are Mega Man's pellets (which are pretty mediocre) and Mii Gunner's fair, (which is more straightforward, and not especially versatile since it forces them backwards) so it was nice to see them experiment with that concept a little more.
@@ReitheOffbeatOtaku I think the other projectile aerials are actually pretty good, gunner fair is alright as a poke and pellets are pretty good in general
@@DinkyWaffle Yeah, to be fair, I'm not a Mega Main, so there are probably a lot of uses for pellets I don't know about, lol. As for Gunner fair, I agree it's a good move, I just meant that you can't really combo with it or anything crazy like that when I said it's not versatile.
Imagine trying to l-cancel as G&W when you realize some Numbnuts decided to give him a nonstandard landing state and you just thought you couldn't do it. Totally wasn't me wasting my time in training mode guys...
Melee Mr. Game & Watch is one of the most fascinating characters in the entire franchise. A lot of his moves and properties are just odd, like the pummel slide and kamikaze down-b. But even with all his weird issues and quirks, he’s genuinely fun to play, it’s kinda fun to destroy your friends as the buggy 2-D man.
I remember in another video you described him as "pretending to have a shield" and honestly I'm still dying at that description. Very well-made analysis on G&W! I knew his defense was bad but I never knew that some of his moves were so jank in both bad and good ways
People tend to focus on the L cancel thing with G&W when really if you were given one thing to change about him to improve him the most, it would be pretty low on the list. Dying at 80 because you get shield poked by a falling Fox uair or something is way more detrimental to the character than being unable to L cancel 2 aerials that aren't really even that good and 1 aerial that is a kill/edgeguard tool who's endlag doesn't really matter anyway.
G&W is a reason I still have a big soft spot for Melee despite not playing it in 5+ years, I love how even though he's technically low tier he's just so fun to play and he can pull off some amazing stuff.
Ah, Melee G&W, probably the most representative character of the whole game: a fucking broken disaster that can be kinda fun. Even if it’s as broken as RBY which, considering you love both, I’m assuming it’s a good thing in this channel.
no only one other character was added after him, except ganondorf. the general consensus though, is that GnW was programmed after ganon because of the fact that he wasnt finished.
Game and watch is a character that we've just gotten used to seeing, so much that sometimes we forget having a silhouette that is an amalgamation of old LCD games as a playible character is very strange
This is an amazing Christmas gift (no matter how late it is.) Other than this series being fun to watch and you being a great TH-camr, some of the lines like "Holding R to take an L" and "Glass to canon ratio" are absolute gold.
@@smoceany9478He'd be Ganondorf tier at least, or DK. Not amazing characters but they can actually do shit without being held back by having a core ability available to every characters made non functionnal.
@@vivelespatat2670 it would make him a bit better, the shield would help the most, l cancels dont really change too much, and spotdodge, how many times do you spotdodge, unless your borp almost never. but really the big problem is his weight
Very glad you covered him, I was hoping you would someday but wasn't sure. Welcome to Melee, the world's most popular unfinished beta... I main G&W and boy is it a struggle. Not covered in the video is how being a low or mid tier in that game feels really extra sucky given just how dominant and powerful the top tiers are.
Also absorbing powerful projectiles such as pk flash and then using the bucket on an opponents shield will almost instantly kill you as game and watch is pushed away from the opponent at incredible speed. He also will kill/shield break anyone who dares stand between him and the blast zone
As far as G&W's base stats goes, given Mario is the "Default" to which all other characters are compared against, as far as development goes, I imagine EVERY character started out with Mario's stats, which were adjusted as development went on. G&W just... wasn't, because we had to WRAP THIS SHIT UP.
One thing about G&W throws that I noticed is that his hands are a pretty obvious tell as to which way he’s throwing. It’s completely impractical, since the motion’s only visible like 2 frames before you’re launched, but it’s kinda neat.
hey that's my main. One thing, I don't know if it's a true combo or not but you can combo out of b-throw and f-throw into n-air with bad DI. Not if they DI but how will they know which throw is it ?
oh man. I remember there was a time in my life where I mained him in melee for a long time. I actually did okay in my local at the time, but he’s got some hilariously stupid stuff that definitely hurts (and helps) viability I’m super glad you acknowledged his jab! It’s so good, single jab gives you either dtilt shield poke/pressure to beat oos or grab if they hold shield. Up tilt is also a phenomenal anti-air because no end lag and great range too. Also, f-tilt is a good tool to cover ledge vs spacie side b (and guarantee edgeguards on yoshis vs all cast iirc). F-smash still better in neutral tho lol Really happy you made this one! edit: okay I had to talk about this because it wasn’t mentioned, and it was my favorite thing to take stocks with: G&W fthrow and backthrow are kill throws at mid %’s. If your opponent DI’s into either throw, you get a free nair, which usually kills past center stage (especially on Yoshi’s).
I’ve wanted to main G&W in Melee for the longest time. Really interesting character due to his jank nature and weird properties. His combos also seem fun.
Cool video, just wanted to point out an error. It's a common missconception that grabs come out on frame 6 (because for some reason the frame counter starts at zero on grabs instead of 1 like with other moves) but G&W, like other characters, actually has a frame 7 grab.
@@BigYellowSilly Yeah, a lot of sources gets is wrong so it's an easy mistake. Thanks for the reply, makes me glad to know I'm not just wasting time writing comments like that. Great video anyway, have a nice day ^_^
The thing about Mr. Game & Watch being the second-to-last character added to Melee is definitely untrue. All of the clones were added long after the unique characters were decided. Sakurai has stated that the roster is decided at the very start of development, and that clones are added near the end. This is further supported by the Debug Menu, which lists the non-clones in mostly alphabetical order (just with Zelda and Sheik put next to eachother), while the clones are tacked on at the end, with Ganondorf (who we know was the final addition) at the very end of the playable roster list. If the clones are listed in the order they were added, then the order goes Falco -> Young Link -> Dr. Mario -> Roy -> Pichu -> Ganondorf, meaning Pichu was the second-to-last addition. I think a more likely case for why Mr. Game & Watch is seemingly unfinished is because he might've been on the chopping block but was able to be completed in time for inclusion. This sort of thing has actually happened numerous times throughout the series. Some examples include Lucario, Wolf, Toon Link, and Jigglypuff in Brawl, and Bowser Jr in Smash 4. In direct contrast, it seems like Piranha Plant in Ultimate was an example of a character that didn't get lucky like the aforementioned ones and had to be pushed to DLC off of the main roster.
I think G&W would actually be a decent mid tier if his bugs were fixed. I don't think Melee mods should do a whole rebalance and nerf the top tiers and such but they should mod G&W and a couple other low tiers just to fix them slightly.
I've always thought a nice balance mod would be to buff everyone below Mario to around as strong as him, that way Melee's core meta is mostly untouched but some characters are more fun
@@BigYellowSilly ya something like that would be nice. I love watching low tiers but you can tell they are extremely held back by just being coded bad half the time aka G&W, Roy, Mewtwo, Zelda etc. However Link stanky leg stays haha
Yissss another Melee FGG G&W is so weird lmao. My friend from uni mains him and made him work at our weeklies, but it's such a struggle to get over his weaknesses. On the flipside tho, that same friend mained G&W in PM (back in 3.6, no less), and good god did the PMBR turn the character into a glass cannon but without the glass lmao. P+ has since toned him down, but the G&W of 3.02 thru 3.6 was a fucking monster lmao
Thanks for the guide, I plan on going to weeklies as G&W only with dreams to be the most toxic player that places well and mocks others on stream when I win.
@@rac1equalsbestgame853 yes and no. Was a ton of fun to play, but insanely overpowered. The main problem with meta knight isn't necessarily in his moves themselves. They killed too early, and we're way too safe. Meta Knight could have been an amazingly designed character if values were adjusted. Bayo was a way worse character design wise imo. Like her problem was design wise. Her witch time was just stupid in concept, bat within was also dumb, and her combos were stupid. Not just the touch of death one either, she had so many.
I know the topic isn’t on BM, but I really hope they just fix his shield and L canceling and nothing else because that’s sorta all he needs to be at least good
Kinda interested to see a similar Fighting Game Garbage video on Melee Pichu, since he’s a joke character who was made bad on purpose but who isn’t actually as bad as you’d think.
G&W is one of the few characters that are bad by mistake rather than terrible design. He'd be in a far better position if only he could actually block and L-cancel (more so the former). Wouldn't make him top tier, but he'd be perfectly serviceable. That's the kind of low tier where I can at least get what the devs are going for. Meanwhile, you have nonsense like Kirby having low range and low mobility (like why is that even a thing, how is he supposed to do anything?) and Little Mac being a stupidly polarizing, but still low tier character that's neither fun to play as nor fight because he's too good in his own field, but also too terrible anywhere else (which just happens to include literally 2-3rds of the combat in Smash, i.e. aerial combat and platforms) to actually fight his opponent in anything resembling a fight. I'd also throw in basically every super heavyweight until like 4's Bowser, who doesn't even really stick to that archetype anymore because he is too fast for that now. They really need to just give extra hitstun for big guys so that they can have combos rather than get one lucky hit in, then have to win neutral again when that's already pretty hard to do. It's one of the main differences between beefy guys in other fighting games and Smash.
Man, imagine how crazy GnW would be if just his "special" aerials and shield was normal... L cancelling that nair would be a war crime Maybe a Melee but Dev oversights are fixed mod would be cool.
Melee is 100 percent one of the more interesting Nintendo games in terms of wanting more info about it's development. I would pay good money for a book that goes into the nitty gritty of it's development cycle. it sounds chaotic and stressful for the amount of time they had to make it. like the problem with a book trying to figure all the details out about it is I wouldn't be shocked if the people who worked on it have generally truama blocked that period from their minds cause the conditions sound generally inhumane and bordering if not overtly exploitative. maybe Nintendo also has some investment in not letting all the brutal crunch details getting out. I know Sakurai has some lingering health problems from his work schedule and I hope gets time off more now to rest.
Oh no lol. Thought he was so cool and mysterious now here is with garbage's return. Ahem, beeg yellow, are you at all invested in the Akaneia Build? I actually thought it was already dead with Beyond Melee being the successor but no they just had a huge update. I actually think I might like it better than Beyond because it feels more like the Smash Remix (another mod I cannot recommend enough love that shit) of Melee. They already added two characters that don't even seem planned for Beyond so I think you'll enjoy. I would like you doing videos on it too of course.
Hey, whatever happened to that Tekken video you had planned? Were you ever able to get the ps2 emulation working, or is it still really compressed looking?
Game and Watch was one of my mains back in brawl when I first started with the series. I always chose the cool looking characters, or the ones I recognized, and I've stuck with G&W to this day. I never got to play OG Melee considering I didn't exist yet, but he still looks like he has all the traits I loved him for in Brawl. (and also he goes bip bop bep beep beep boop and he is like I am Mr gay man watch and he get 9 and crowd go OOOOOOOO)
Now you gotta do a fighting game gold on PM game and watch to show how just a few changes to an otherwise middling character can turn them into a monster.
I've been a big fan of G&W ever since I first unlocked him in Melee so many years ago (I feel old now). I honestly prefer Melee G&W over Ultimate G&W, as janky as he is, because they changed his F-Air to a weird bomb drop, which takes away one of his best moves, in my opinion.
Lemme tell ya somethin bout ultimate game n watch tho: there is nothing more satisfying than taking a stock, and then immediately taking another at 0 with a 9. Fuckin beautiful
Man, I never knew some of these things like Forward Smash avoiding grabs, I wonder if him being finished in Melee would’ve changed his place in the tier list
I wonder how good a finished game and watch could be, as his shield and lack of L-cancelling would probably be fixed if the game had time to finish, along with some of his other just plain weird stuff, like the lack of nose invincibility (love having to write this type of sentence)
Wanna see a character with just as good offense but the easily worst defense similar to this character? Try Alpha-152 in any of the Dead or Alive 5 series. Fast pokes, some powerful and quick throws, does excellent strike damage, and is fast in general as MOST of her stats are Kasumi’s. The issues? These are HUGE: Cannot actually counter hold attacks. She just teleports behind her opponent. Her parry does a very weak hit that isn’t comboable into anything. This character has no regular wake-up kick, which in a game based on pressure and momentum is a big weakness. Her H+K getup attack is okay but easy to catch onto. She is the lightest character in the game and gets juggled for more damage than any other character in the game. In every character’s combo challenge, every character gets a specific combo to do that only works on her. Juggles are the core element of doing damage in DOA, so this combined with a gimmick wake up kick is a fatal blow. She’d make a great character for fighting game garbage
It's funny how just having a jank shield and spot dodge is enough to bury him into low tier. If both of those were fixed, perhaps he could be high tier.
I've been a G&W Main every Smash. He's been a fun quirky goof and no matter the game its always fun to fight a ditto match against another one. Smash Ultimate was a bit weird for him, replacing his Forward Aerial with a kinda 'eh' bomb but having a burial move in Down Smash and an amazing out of shield really makes him be able to stand up to the stupidly OP DLC fighters. Shout Outs to Smash 4 where his down tilt has a fun abusable windbox. I've killed so many Lil Mac's spamming Side Special by simply using that windbox near an edge to make them float right off the stage.
I think that it is important to note that even though down smash is a pretty horrible move if you get the weak hit the strong hit is pretty good being used for combos at low percents and having decent knock back that being said it is hard to use and I can see why you said it was bad and I would also like to shine some light on his forward and back throws being that if the opponent holds in it is a free fair (unless that are super floaty then it’s a nair) and if they hold out they are stuck having to recover which g&w has a very good edge guard game. G&W’s jigglypuff matchup is not even that bad either I think you could argue it’s almost even because if you poke jigglypuff with tons of fairs and nairs she will die very quickly.
If I remember right I heard that G&W/Puff is around even but if Puff gets a lead it's very hard for G&W to even it out, ty for the insight tho I had always heard D-Smash was just awful so it's cool seeing how it can be used
In a lot of ways, I'd compare Mr. GW to something along the lines of early CoD's "noob tube"; -Extremely easy to pick up and become competent in -Very powerful attack that give a rush of adrenaline -Power floor is higher then most options -Power floor is above the skill floor -Apporid defensive use -Kinda polarizing -Never useless And I think that's why he's such a popular character *among us* players. It allows for RNG and sheer attack power to make up for a skill difference, while still explicitly making skill a factor; you still gotta hit your shots. It's the same logic behind why so many people played Little Mac or Roy: characters with obvious, major flaws, but have some specific move or mechanic that gives them an edge over obviously better characters in specific edge cases. G&W is the most popular of this archetype since his edge case is... Edges. Something you'll find on every stage, Final destination'd or not. Much as I love Mac and Roy, their edge cases usually require more set up then just "play the game normally", Mac especially. Having a character who is overall worse, but can be insanely better at a part of the game you know you'll get to naturally, is not only more appealing and useful to new players, but gives maining him some actual, tangible reasoning behind it. (Again, sorry to pick on you Mac, but you're no one's true main. Even I picked dark pit more then you.) I think I'd call G&W a realistic glass cannon. As in, he's made of tough, blast proof glass and is set up behind a barricade, but once he gets hit by a cannonball, he's out, and he shimmers a bit in the sun.
Man I wish I can say game and watch was fixed in the modern day, but considering that the damn bucket glitch still exists even after all the patches, they really didn't
I main game and watch because he's funny, but also I play Rivals of Aether so no shield isn't a huge behavioral shift for me. Nair is an incredible kill move and his edge guard options aren't bad. Once you get used to edge-cancel spacing his options open up a bit more. Edge cancel bair or upair just kinda locks people on platforms. He can grab ledge from farther than it looks, though his recovery still isn't fantastic.
1:08 that might be part of the reason, but it could also be a reference to the fact that meny of the original Game and Watch games actually stared mario. I think that's a very cute reference ifit was the real reason. :)
IIRC people guessed that he was added very late in development because in melee's debug menu, the character's ID numbers are sorted by when they were added into the game and him and Ganon are the last two
That's what I was thinking, I checked in the Debug menu and he wasn't second last, and in M-ex he's third last, but I know for a fact I've heard that before
@@BigYellowSilly in an AsumSaus video he points out that Roy doesn't have a black and red nameplate like everyone else on the character selection screen, but a pure black one. Roy is definitely the last added, I know that for almost a fact because he was added at the announcement of fire emblem 6, which hadn't even been released yet, making Roy the only original smash character, who guest-starred in FE lmao
Game and Watch mains are the type of blokes to miraculously float towards the aroma of a freshly baked pie.
Game and watch mains are the type of mfs to go "wiwiwiwi" when sleeping and have a big bubble on their nose
Game and Watch mains are the kind of people who stalk you while playing on their Game and Watch device. (I know because I am one.)
Game and Watch mains are the type to fall to the ground at inhumanly fast speeds with their feet lifted up in the air whenever a minor inconvenience occurres.
Game and Watch mains are the type of people that commit war crimes in Krakow in 1945 and get away with it because no one was going to say anything about a few missing Poles.
Game and Watch mains are the type of blokes to not fall until they inevitably look down
The best description of G&W I've ever heard was "an offensively high tier character stuck with bottom tier defenses".
That’s my exact description of Videl.
Goldlewis in a nutshell. Allthough it's not as bad as before.
@@Neogears1312 isn't she pitifully low in damage?
"The glass to cannon ratio is kinda fucky"
@@HellecticMojo no
"Even if you hold R to shield, you're gonna be holding an L" and "The glass-to-canon ratio is a bit fucky" are 2 of my favorite quotes now
I never realized the joke with the first one until you wrote it out
Now it's not funny anymore because I explained the joke to myself
Great line tho
*cannon
Fun fact about the bowser glitch btw; it’s because the damage as well as the animation is based on weight. The heavier you are the more damage it does. But at the specific weight values of puff and GnW makes bowsers grab miss the frame where it’s supposed to hit because they skip it perfectly enough for the game to not correct it like it does with pichu.
Always wondered how Pichu got away with that, ty for the info
The damage isn't based on weight, the actual speed of the throw is. How the throw works is that it has a hitbox and it has a throw. All of the damage comes from the hitbox, which is only active for one frame. Puff and GNW just so happen to have a weight value which skips the one frame where the hitbox is active, so the throw has no damage.
PAL Melee fixed this by making the throw the same speed against the entire cast, so the only "fix" Game & Watch got was a change made to Bowser, not him. Even though the throw does damage to Game & Watch in PAL, the throw is actually considerably slower, so it isn't a pure hinderance to GNW.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank yeah I knew I was a bit off but I was tired and just wanted to ball park the idea off memory so it was it least roughly known why.
Ah yes, Melee Game & Watch. I guess being a buggy disaster fits his role in Subspace at least. Even still, I'd say he's one of Smash's defining weird characters, and I'm glad the Smash team actually managed to complete him in later games.
For me it's weird, Melee G&W is defo the least complete, but he's easily the most fun imo. Stuff like his old N-air and D-air alongside his kill moves that lost a lot of kill power in later games make this my favourite iteration of the character, despite his issues
@@BigYellowSilly Man if Brawl G&W had Melee nair....... character would be mad fun
@@Pokehero Play P+! You'll have a blast.
@@BigYellowSilly So, with Melee as your favorite iteration, what would you say is your least favorite and why?
@@whomdunit2457 Smash 4 G&W was really boring imo, character just felt really ok across the board
So many characters in melee would be more viable if their weaknesses weren't down to "Oh, sorry! The moveset you ordered doesn't actually work. We'll have to reorder but they won't come in until the next installment."
And then the next installment gutted neutral, punish and even general movement to the point where it doesn't feel like the same series :(
just play p+ :)
@@bN_isheeere no :)
@@bN_isheeere because it’s bad
@@bN_isheeere it’s funny that you respond to play ultimate when that’s the game that gutted neutral punish and movement
“Even if you hold R to shield, you’re gonna be holding an L”
Bars
I feel like you could explain why G&W is bad to 100 different mains of him and 95 of them would respond with "haha funny 9 lol."
And I respect it, it's a good reason to play a character
Oh yeah like there's no way around the fact this character is dummy fun
Good luck finding 100 GnW mains LMAO
@@Lafenlafen1 given that Melee is extremely popular even today, 100 G&W mains probably exist, tracking them down would be the issue.
@@MrMisfortune With the popularity of Melee and Ultimate combined I doubt you could find 100 G&W mains
G&w main here
as the best active melee G&W player in the world, this is a great video! i really like how you focus on the strengths of his offense and the weakness of his defense. but, there are some minor nitpicks and notes that might serve as good accompaniments to your detailed analysis!
- regarding his defense, perhaps the most understated element that makes G&W so bad on defense is his combo weight. dying at 70% is one thing, there are a lot of characters that die at early %. but, they dont get combo'd like G&W does. fox up-throw -> up-air true combos G&W well into the ~115% range, and it kills him at 70%. it's not like with Jigglypuff, where once you're past 85%, up-throw up-air is pretty much off the board. this is true of many, many, many kill setups in melee. G&W dies to them early, but they still combo him well into late%. it's unfortunate.
- regarding throws, while you're correct that up- and down-throw are definitely the 2 best, his f-throw and b-throw are useful for far more than just positioning. these grabs are amazing DI mix-ups, as if your opponent DIs in, spacies catch huge combos started by either up-tilt or down-smash (depending on %), and non-spacies take a free N-air. and if they DI out, no matter the character, they're offstage - which is where G&W shines most. all of his throws are extraordinarily useful in different scenarios.
- regarding his smash attacks, up-smash and down-smash are pretty much flipped from how you outline them here. up-smash ends up being pretty much useless, as any anti-air qualities it has are far outshine by up-tilt, and its impressive shield-stun is relatively meaningless 99% of the time. down-smash however, serves as one of his most potent combo moves at low%, extending perfectly off of his ground game and serving as a legitimately amazing DI mix-up combo tool.
- regarding his up-tilt, this move is honestly just really understated. against spacies, it is easily his 3rd best move (behind only f-air and d-tilt). it is one of the strongest anti-air tools in the game, and the follow-up tree that it creates is legitimately insane. at low% you either get grabs or more up-tilts into f-air/n-air. at mid% you get a free n-air to send offstage, and at high %, you get N-air to kill. against non-spacies it is significantly worse, but it is also a great tool vs. Peach and Jigglypuff, as G&W can struggle when directly below many characters due to his awful shield. up-tilt mitigates this weakness significantly, giving him an amazing anti-air vs Peach/Puff that kills Peach at around ~125% and Puff at around ~110%.
overall, this video was really awesome and i love the detail you went into to shine some light on melee G&W. i don't want this comment to sound like a nitpicky hater because that's really not what i'm aiming to do. i just feel like i'd be remiss if i didn't throw some of my extensive G&W knowledge into the fold as well. if you dont believe any of what im saying, feel free to watch some of my sets and see how some of these things hold true in high level play!
Glad you enjoyed and thanks a ton for the insight! I really appreciate the feedback from a great player and don't worry about feeling nitpicky or anything, I really do appreciate this stuff and the more people that can see it the better 👌
let’s go new hampshire 😍
Where can I find your sets?
@@SmokePudding just look up glock in my toyota melee
@@JT-vm5sb 👍
You speak so clearly, the auto subs are almost one to one with what you're saying. As a person with an audio processing disorder, it's really appreciated!
That's really good to hear! I feel like I used to speak way too fast in some of my older vids, so I'm glad there's an improvement
tbh, i feel G&W could've been stronger if the devs had more time to design him. and maybe Ganondorf would've had his own moveset instead of being a Captain Falcon semiclone
In an ideal world Melee got one more month of development and some intern was like "ayo that shield trash"
Gannon being a Captain Falcon semiclone for 20 years is the biggest tragedy of the Smash series.
He's pretty different
I hate how smash characters never change past their initial appearance. Sonic still has 2 spindashes and Ganon is still a falcon clone
@@bageltoo Samus also has this problem really bad, I really don’t like both versions of her in Smash
this is a detailed moveset analysis, well-done!
i love how G&W could totally be a good character if most of his moves just... worked LOL. i'd reckon he'd be at least a mid tier with functioning aerials + shield buff. it's very hard to make a small disjoint character bad in smash, but somehow Melee managed to do it.
Thank you! I do wonder a lot how a G&W with just those issues fixed would fit into Melee, I kinda hope that's how he turns out in Beyond Melee and isn't completely new
in casual gameplay i think hes one of the best characters right now because of his lack of utilization. i just play with friends, granted we all know how to DI and wavedash etc and G&W has served me well
"If you're holding R to shield, you'll still be holding an L" Absolute genius line my good sir
I think Fighting Game Garbage could feature very poorly designed top tiers. Ice Climbers in Brawl are top two... because they have confirmable ToD chain grab on a lot of characters. Like they just 9-1 a lot of characters and I will swear to this day Meta Knight was the lesser of two evils in the top two and they did more to chase people out of Brawl than MK did.
Like MK was incredibly op.... but he actually played a game of smash, the mirror was a really cool matchup that was very fun to watch, and he took skill to use optimally. IC chain grabs might be hard to learn, but I'd argue four free stocks for practicing chain grab set ups is an inordinate amount of payoff for the work. What a dumpster character who I'm glsd has faded into obscurity they deserved it.
Wobbling my man
And now they kinda suck in Ultimate. Shame. There's still some wicked stuff they can do by desyncing the two climbers' moves, but once again it's an inordinate amount of payoff (just in the opposite favour this time).
@@k-leb4671 the thing with them is that, desync is amazing if you learn to do it, but they don't have anything else to do
This is honestly an amazingly thorough analysis, this character has so many easy to miss positives and negatives that usually I don't see them all in one place. The only thing I could even think of that wasn't mentioned is his defense being made even worse by his janky tech roll animations, which are relatively easy to react to and punish compared to most characters. Every other interesting factoid of the character is covered, from the 0-frame-lag uptilt and incredible disjoint/duration of some of his moves, to the janky chaingrabs, terrible hitbox on 9, and weird issue with aerial Bucket. Really a solid, complete look at the character.
About the beginning of the video: According to Smash Ultimate's roster numbers, game and watch WAS the last character ever added to melee (ganondorf was 4th last, then mewtwo, then roy, then g&w). According to the debug menu's character order, he was 2nd last, then ganondorf. In either case, it was close to the very end, and the last non clone character.
Honestly Ultimate's fighter numbers are kinda arbitrary in a lot of ways, and either way certainly not representative of implementation order during development specifically. According to the wiki, for the case of Melee's unlockable characters their fighter numbers are just based on when you unlock the characters in Melee, and G&W is the last character you unlock in Melee.
Fighter numbers are based on when the fighters were annouched for the game more so than when they were put in. This includes both commercials and the order characters were unlocked.
In melee G&W is the secret final character and not that many new comers were annouced before launch.
Ganondorf was the last character put in? No wonder they couldn't do better than a clone.(Though maybe it was a good thing since he is the most legendary clonecharacter of all time. Sure, he sucks in every game, but it is always fun to play him because actually winning with him is so incredibly satisfying.)
@@lpfan4491 He’s aight in Melee, still worse than Falcon but Ganondorf has his own worthwhile advantages in that game. A midtier character
"So even if you hold R to shield, you're gonna be holding an L." Greatest line I've ever heard
It's so funny to compare G&W's Melee down-smash, where you either explode or take 2 percent with no in-between, to the Ultimate version, where you usually get buried in the ground, but sometimes the game is nice enough to semi-spike you instead.
That being said, though, it's interesting to see an overview like this as an Ultimate player, since even though G&W is a lot higher on the Ult tier list than the Melee one, he might've been even more ridiculous if he had some of his moves that got replaced over time like his old nair and fair.
I am so thankful he has bomb (which despite the jank, it's still a fantastic move and allows him to get free grabs at any percent) instead of card because he would legitimately be a top-tier contender instead of this weird counterpick I beat Pikachu but lose to Ike type beat
@@DinkyWaffle Yeah, the bomb is a pretty strong move, (to the point that it's more of a trade-off than an outright nerf) but Ultimate G&W with that disjointed fair would've been a menace.
It was also a nice change just for the sake of move variety; the only other projectile aerials I can think of in Smash are Mega Man's pellets (which are pretty mediocre) and Mii Gunner's fair, (which is more straightforward, and not especially versatile since it forces them backwards) so it was nice to see them experiment with that concept a little more.
@@ReitheOffbeatOtaku I think the other projectile aerials are actually pretty good, gunner fair is alright as a poke and pellets are pretty good in general
@@DinkyWaffle Yeah, to be fair, I'm not a Mega Main, so there are probably a lot of uses for pellets I don't know about, lol.
As for Gunner fair, I agree it's a good move, I just meant that you can't really combo with it or anything crazy like that when I said it's not versatile.
@@ReitheOffbeatOtaku villager also has them and theyre really damn good
Imagine trying to l-cancel as G&W when you realize some Numbnuts decided to give him a nonstandard landing state and you just thought you couldn't do it.
Totally wasn't me wasting my time in training mode guys...
its not the landing state, its that the non-L-cancelable airs are codes as special moves
Melee Mr. Game & Watch is one of the most fascinating characters in the entire franchise. A lot of his moves and properties are just odd, like the pummel slide and kamikaze down-b.
But even with all his weird issues and quirks, he’s genuinely fun to play, it’s kinda fun to destroy your friends as the buggy 2-D man.
what are those techniques you mentioned? hes my favorite character, but i mostly play 64.
I remember in another video you described him as "pretending to have a shield" and honestly I'm still dying at that description. Very well-made analysis on G&W! I knew his defense was bad but I never knew that some of his moves were so jank in both bad and good ways
People tend to focus on the L cancel thing with G&W when really if you were given one thing to change about him to improve him the most, it would be pretty low on the list. Dying at 80 because you get shield poked by a falling Fox uair or something is way more detrimental to the character than being unable to L cancel 2 aerials that aren't really even that good and 1 aerial that is a kill/edgeguard tool who's endlag doesn't really matter anyway.
22:53 “Even when you hold R to shield, you’re gonna be holding an L.” 💀💀💀
G&W is a reason I still have a big soft spot for Melee despite not playing it in 5+ years, I love how even though he's technically low tier he's just so fun to play and he can pull off some amazing stuff.
If game and watch could L cancel, shield, and dodge I would main him. He is so fun to play
Try him on p+ he feels do good
Ah, Melee G&W, probably the most representative character of the whole game: a fucking broken disaster that can be kinda fun. Even if it’s as broken as RBY which, considering you love both, I’m assuming it’s a good thing in this channel.
Mr. Game & Watch was the last unique character added to Melee. The six clone characters were added after him.
G&W is a clone of Mario with some attacks changed.
no only one other character was added after him, except ganondorf. the general consensus though, is that GnW was programmed after ganon because of the fact that he wasnt finished.
@@crack4184some? you mean all? he has some similar attributes but all unique moves
Game and watch is a character that we've just gotten used to seeing, so much that sometimes we forget having a silhouette that is an amalgamation of old LCD games as a playible character is very strange
Mr Game and Watch is genuinely so decent that it's kinda funny
He is quite literally doing he best
This is an amazing Christmas gift (no matter how late it is.)
Other than this series being fun to watch and you being a great TH-camr, some of the lines like "Holding R to take an L" and "Glass to canon ratio" are absolute gold.
How to make G&W viable
-Make him be able to L-Cancel all of his aerials
-Fix his shield and dodges
G&W is now viable
nah tbh those dont make him that much worse, the real problem is being comboed to oblivion and dying at 70
@@smoceany9478He'd be Ganondorf tier at least, or DK.
Not amazing characters but they can actually do shit without being held back by having a core ability available to every characters made non functionnal.
@@vivelespatat2670 it would make him a bit better, the shield would help the most, l cancels dont really change too much, and spotdodge, how many times do you spotdodge, unless your borp almost never. but really the big problem is his weight
so project m/+ then
Game & Watch is my favorite low tier in Melee (and also the most viable one imo), so I really enjoyed hearing you talk about him!
Very glad you covered him, I was hoping you would someday but wasn't sure.
Welcome to Melee, the world's most popular unfinished beta...
I main G&W and boy is it a struggle. Not covered in the video is how being a low or mid tier in that game feels really extra sucky given just how dominant and powerful the top tiers are.
"the Glass-to-Canon ratio is a little bit fucky" is the best way to describe G&W, thank you so much for finding these words I love them so much !!
i love these videos, are there plans to make a fg gold or fg garbage on hftf? that game is full of war crime and disfunctional characters
i wouldnt call any of the characters dysfunctional but pet shop sure is a war crime
@@jebbanana2309 Hftf is the only game I can think of with two non-boss characters banned from play.
@@wolfgangervin2582 that still doesnt mean the game is full of dysfunctional characters. just two insanely op ones
@@jebbanana2309 yup
@@wolfgangervin2582 who else is banned other than petshop?
And now in ultimate, he is rly fricking good.
and fun which is more important
Also absorbing powerful projectiles such as pk flash and then using the bucket on an opponents shield will almost instantly kill you as game and watch is pushed away from the opponent at incredible speed. He also will kill/shield break anyone who dares stand between him and the blast zone
Wow really? Man that move really is stupid in this game
As far as G&W's base stats goes, given Mario is the "Default" to which all other characters are compared against, as far as development goes, I imagine EVERY character started out with Mario's stats, which were adjusted as development went on. G&W just... wasn't, because we had to WRAP THIS SHIT UP.
The first Key fighter, before Sora came into the roster at long freaking last.
One thing about G&W throws that I noticed is that his hands are a pretty obvious tell as to which way he’s throwing. It’s completely impractical, since the motion’s only visible like 2 frames before you’re launched, but it’s kinda neat.
hey that's my main.
One thing, I don't know if it's a true combo or not but you can combo out of b-throw and f-throw into n-air with bad DI. Not if they DI but how will they know which throw is it ?
Even if it's not true that's a pretty cool DI mixup tbh
oh man. I remember there was a time in my life where I mained him in melee for a long time. I actually did okay in my local at the time, but he’s got some hilariously stupid stuff that definitely hurts (and helps) viability
I’m super glad you acknowledged his jab! It’s so good, single jab gives you either dtilt shield poke/pressure to beat oos or grab if they hold shield. Up tilt is also a phenomenal anti-air because no end lag and great range too. Also, f-tilt is a good tool to cover ledge vs spacie side b (and guarantee edgeguards on yoshis vs all cast iirc). F-smash still better in neutral tho lol
Really happy you made this one!
edit: okay I had to talk about this because it wasn’t mentioned, and it was my favorite thing to take stocks with: G&W fthrow and backthrow are kill throws at mid %’s. If your opponent DI’s into either throw, you get a free nair, which usually kills past center stage (especially on Yoshi’s).
I’ve wanted to main G&W in Melee for the longest time. Really interesting character due to his jank nature and weird properties. His combos also seem fun.
Cool video, just wanted to point out an error.
It's a common missconception that grabs come out on frame 6 (because for some reason the frame counter starts at zero on grabs instead of 1 like with other moves) but G&W, like other characters, actually has a frame 7 grab.
Thanks for the info, I should've copped that but the site I was double checking frame data on said 6
@@BigYellowSilly Yeah, a lot of sources gets is wrong so it's an easy mistake. Thanks for the reply, makes me glad to know I'm not just wasting time writing comments like that.
Great video anyway, have a nice day ^_^
I never knew how cursed it would be to see the melee timer count up. Awesome!
The thing about Mr. Game & Watch being the second-to-last character added to Melee is definitely untrue. All of the clones were added long after the unique characters were decided. Sakurai has stated that the roster is decided at the very start of development, and that clones are added near the end.
This is further supported by the Debug Menu, which lists the non-clones in mostly alphabetical order (just with Zelda and Sheik put next to eachother), while the clones are tacked on at the end, with Ganondorf (who we know was the final addition) at the very end of the playable roster list. If the clones are listed in the order they were added, then the order goes Falco -> Young Link -> Dr. Mario -> Roy -> Pichu -> Ganondorf, meaning Pichu was the second-to-last addition.
I think a more likely case for why Mr. Game & Watch is seemingly unfinished is because he might've been on the chopping block but was able to be completed in time for inclusion. This sort of thing has actually happened numerous times throughout the series. Some examples include Lucario, Wolf, Toon Link, and Jigglypuff in Brawl, and Bowser Jr in Smash 4. In direct contrast, it seems like Piranha Plant in Ultimate was an example of a character that didn't get lucky like the aforementioned ones and had to be pushed to DLC off of the main roster.
I think G&W would actually be a decent mid tier if his bugs were fixed. I don't think Melee mods should do a whole rebalance and nerf the top tiers and such but they should mod G&W and a couple other low tiers just to fix them slightly.
I've always thought a nice balance mod would be to buff everyone below Mario to around as strong as him, that way Melee's core meta is mostly untouched but some characters are more fun
@@BigYellowSilly ya something like that would be nice. I love watching low tiers but you can tell they are extremely held back by just being coded bad half the time aka G&W, Roy, Mewtwo, Zelda etc. However Link stanky leg stays haha
Exactly Low Tiers are fine especially in a game this old. But no character’s weakness should be “this move is coded incorrectly”
@@BigYellowSilly I think everyone below SAMUS should be buffed to be good as her. Also fix the damn cyclone glitch with Luigi.
@@BigYellowSilly why would we want to avoid touching the meta?
8:26 it's unsettling seeing G&W face directly at you, w/ hammers out too...
Yissss another Melee FGG
G&W is so weird lmao. My friend from uni mains him and made him work at our weeklies, but it's such a struggle to get over his weaknesses. On the flipside tho, that same friend mained G&W in PM (back in 3.6, no less), and good god did the PMBR turn the character into a glass cannon but without the glass lmao. P+ has since toned him down, but the G&W of 3.02 thru 3.6 was a fucking monster lmao
The nose specifically having a grabbable hurtbox is really funny to me
Great analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
22:52 Nice. I like that play on words there.
As I have said, you have a knack for those comedic moments.
Thanks for the guide, I plan on going to weeklies as G&W only with dreams to be the most toxic player that places well and mocks others on stream when I win.
Fighting game garbage shouldn't be just for low tiers. It should also be great characters with trash design as well imo
I’d edit that to say “just for”
@@Neogears1312 could have sworn that I did. I made the comment very fast lol
_Brawl Meta Knight_
@@rac1equalsbestgame853 yes and no. Was a ton of fun to play, but insanely overpowered. The main problem with meta knight isn't necessarily in his moves themselves. They killed too early, and we're way too safe. Meta Knight could have been an amazingly designed character if values were adjusted. Bayo was a way worse character design wise imo. Like her problem was design wise. Her witch time was just stupid in concept, bat within was also dumb, and her combos were stupid. Not just the touch of death one either, she had so many.
@@josephhanicak7922 Whatever, BOTH deserve a trip to fighting game garbage.
I instinctually said "oh fuck yeah" when I saw this in my feed.
I know the topic isn’t on BM, but I really hope they just fix his shield and L canceling and nothing else because that’s sorta all he needs to be at least good
I trust them to do some cool stuff but if they give him his Ultimate aerials I'll cry
I always questioned how he has the parachute for his neutral air but not his up-b
How long did you spend recording the hitboxes for the 1-9 special move?
Funnily enough not long at all I got that TH-camr RNG
@@BigYellowSilly "I did some Judges off camera"
Kinda interested to see a similar Fighting Game Garbage video on Melee Pichu, since he’s a joke character who was made bad on purpose but who isn’t actually as bad as you’d think.
G&W is one of the few characters that are bad by mistake rather than terrible design. He'd be in a far better position if only he could actually block and L-cancel (more so the former). Wouldn't make him top tier, but he'd be perfectly serviceable. That's the kind of low tier where I can at least get what the devs are going for.
Meanwhile, you have nonsense like Kirby having low range and low mobility (like why is that even a thing, how is he supposed to do anything?) and Little Mac being a stupidly polarizing, but still low tier character that's neither fun to play as nor fight because he's too good in his own field, but also too terrible anywhere else (which just happens to include literally 2-3rds of the combat in Smash, i.e. aerial combat and platforms) to actually fight his opponent in anything resembling a fight.
I'd also throw in basically every super heavyweight until like 4's Bowser, who doesn't even really stick to that archetype anymore because he is too fast for that now. They really need to just give extra hitstun for big guys so that they can have combos rather than get one lucky hit in, then have to win neutral again when that's already pretty hard to do. It's one of the main differences between beefy guys in other fighting games and Smash.
TH-cam Gold: Big Yellow (FGC)
(:
Man, imagine how crazy GnW would be if just his "special" aerials and shield was normal... L cancelling that nair would be a war crime
Maybe a Melee but Dev oversights are fixed mod would be cool.
Melee is 100 percent one of the more interesting Nintendo games in terms of wanting more info about it's development. I would pay good money for a book that goes into the nitty gritty of it's development cycle.
it sounds chaotic and stressful for the amount of time they had to make it. like the problem with a book trying to figure all the details out about it is I wouldn't be shocked if the people who worked on it have generally truama blocked that period from their minds cause the conditions sound generally inhumane and bordering if not overtly exploitative. maybe Nintendo also has some investment in not letting all the brutal crunch details getting out. I know Sakurai has some lingering health problems from his work schedule and I hope gets time off more now to rest.
Fast forward to Ultimate and he's an incredible character, 2nd only to Pikachu among lightweights
been hyped for a new FGG, thanks Yellow
Oh no lol. Thought he was so cool and mysterious now here is with garbage's return.
Ahem, beeg yellow, are you at all invested in the Akaneia Build? I actually thought it was already dead with Beyond Melee being the successor but no they just had a huge update. I actually think I might like it better than Beyond because it feels more like the Smash Remix (another mod I cannot recommend enough love that shit) of Melee. They already added two characters that don't even seem planned for Beyond so I think you'll enjoy. I would like you doing videos on it too of course.
I see you everywhere lol
I saw the update but haven't tried it yet, looks amazing tho I have all the respect in the world for them
@@BigYellowSilly Ah yes. You might also love Project M Ex Remix which also seems to be getting an update soon. Golden Age of Smash mods?
Hey, whatever happened to that Tekken video you had planned? Were you ever able to get the ps2 emulation working, or is it still really compressed looking?
21:55 So that's why Hungrybox rolls so much more then any other smash player and yet somehow get's away with it.
Melee G&W DAir walked so Smash 4 Cloud DAir could run
Game and Watch was one of my mains back in brawl when I first started with the series. I always chose the cool looking characters, or the ones I recognized, and I've stuck with G&W to this day. I never got to play OG Melee considering I didn't exist yet, but he still looks like he has all the traits I loved him for in Brawl. (and also he goes bip bop bep beep beep boop and he is like I am Mr gay man watch and he get 9 and crowd go OOOOOOOO)
great vid! love gnw and hes one of my favorite characters in p+
Now you gotta do a fighting game gold on PM game and watch to show how just a few changes to an otherwise middling character can turn them into a monster.
I've been a big fan of G&W ever since I first unlocked him in Melee so many years ago (I feel old now). I honestly prefer Melee G&W over Ultimate G&W, as janky as he is, because they changed his F-Air to a weird bomb drop, which takes away one of his best moves, in my opinion.
Lemme tell ya somethin bout ultimate game n watch tho: there is nothing more satisfying than taking a stock, and then immediately taking another at 0 with a 9. Fuckin beautiful
What I think of when I see these stat comparisons is that maybe game and watch is a reference to him existing before Mario
Man, I never knew some of these things like Forward Smash avoiding grabs, I wonder if him being finished in Melee would’ve changed his place in the tier list
imagine a universe where game & watch's nair was L-cancellable
17:49
Man, I love fighting games.
I wonder how good a finished game and watch could be, as his shield and lack of L-cancelling would probably be fixed if the game had time to finish, along with some of his other just plain weird stuff, like the lack of nose invincibility (love having to write this type of sentence)
G&W being a total janky mess fits him perfectly.
“Even if you’re holding R, you’re gonna be holding an L”
Hilarious
I had to drop a like on the video at that moment
“down smash is pretty bad”
Sakurai creating Ultimate: Are you sure about that?
I… I still don’t get how they managed to not check his shield. Like… HUH!?
I genuinely think it was intentional at this point tbh, like they made it this bad on purpose so his Light Shield was the size of a reg one
Oh boy, a new Big Yellow video! 😃
Wanna see a character with just as good offense but the easily worst defense similar to this character? Try Alpha-152 in any of the Dead or Alive 5 series. Fast pokes, some powerful and quick throws, does excellent strike damage, and is fast in general as MOST of her stats are Kasumi’s.
The issues? These are HUGE:
Cannot actually counter hold attacks. She just teleports behind her opponent. Her parry does a very weak hit that isn’t comboable into anything.
This character has no regular wake-up kick, which in a game based on pressure and momentum is a big weakness. Her H+K getup attack is okay but easy to catch onto.
She is the lightest character in the game and gets juggled for more damage than any other character in the game. In every character’s combo challenge, every character gets a specific combo to do that only works on her. Juggles are the core element of doing damage in DOA, so this combined with a gimmick wake up kick is a fatal blow.
She’d make a great character for fighting game garbage
I am also 100% of the camp that G&W should’ve kept his Melee N-Air.
Thank god mr game and watch is a finished character now
It's funny how just having a jank shield and spot dodge is enough to bury him into low tier. If both of those were fixed, perhaps he could be high tier.
I’m amazed how he went from being complete shit to being god in ultimate
He's only god in ultimate because he's one of the 2 characters with a positive MU against pikachu
@@ink3487 but ness isn't god so what's your point
@@kingdedede5570 cause ness cannot defeat mr game and watch
@@ink3487 uh, no. He beats most of the top tiers lmao
12:16 I think the change was good because 2 moves with the same animation (Up-B and Neutral-air) could confuse people
SSBU i feel many people have been traumatized by his up special XD
Throw animations are useful for mixups at the ledge against fastfallers. If they di in against up throw and you forward the punish is very easy
I've been a G&W Main every Smash. He's been a fun quirky goof and no matter the game its always fun to fight a ditto match against another one.
Smash Ultimate was a bit weird for him, replacing his Forward Aerial with a kinda 'eh' bomb but having a burial move in Down Smash and an amazing out of shield really makes him be able to stand up to the stupidly OP DLC fighters.
Shout Outs to Smash 4 where his down tilt has a fun abusable windbox. I've killed so many Lil Mac's spamming Side Special by simply using that windbox near an edge to make them float right off the stage.
I think that it is important to note that even though down smash is a pretty horrible move if you get the weak hit the strong hit is pretty good being used for combos at low percents and having decent knock back that being said it is hard to use and I can see why you said it was bad and I would also like to shine some light on his forward and back throws being that if the opponent holds in it is a free fair (unless that are super floaty then it’s a nair) and if they hold out they are stuck having to recover which g&w has a very good edge guard game. G&W’s jigglypuff matchup is not even that bad either I think you could argue it’s almost even because if you poke jigglypuff with tons of fairs and nairs she will die very quickly.
If I remember right I heard that G&W/Puff is around even but if Puff gets a lead it's very hard for G&W to even it out, ty for the insight tho I had always heard D-Smash was just awful so it's cool seeing how it can be used
In a lot of ways, I'd compare Mr. GW to something along the lines of early CoD's "noob tube";
-Extremely easy to pick up and become competent in
-Very powerful attack that give a rush of adrenaline
-Power floor is higher then most options
-Power floor is above the skill floor
-Apporid defensive use
-Kinda polarizing
-Never useless
And I think that's why he's such a popular character *among us* players. It allows for RNG and sheer attack power to make up for a skill difference, while still explicitly making skill a factor; you still gotta hit your shots.
It's the same logic behind why so many people played Little Mac or Roy: characters with obvious, major flaws, but have some specific move or mechanic that gives them an edge over obviously better characters in specific edge cases.
G&W is the most popular of this archetype since his edge case is... Edges. Something you'll find on every stage, Final destination'd or not. Much as I love Mac and Roy, their edge cases usually require more set up then just "play the game normally", Mac especially. Having a character who is overall worse, but can be insanely better at a part of the game you know you'll get to naturally, is not only more appealing and useful to new players, but gives maining him some actual, tangible reasoning behind it.
(Again, sorry to pick on you Mac, but you're no one's true main. Even I picked dark pit more then you.)
I think I'd call G&W a realistic glass cannon. As in, he's made of tough, blast proof glass and is set up behind a barricade, but once he gets hit by a cannonball, he's out, and he shimmers a bit in the sun.
Man I wish I can say game and watch was fixed in the modern day, but considering that the damn bucket glitch still exists even after all the patches, they really didn't
I main game and watch because he's funny, but also I play Rivals of Aether so no shield isn't a huge behavioral shift for me. Nair is an incredible kill move and his edge guard options aren't bad. Once you get used to edge-cancel spacing his options open up a bit more. Edge cancel bair or upair just kinda locks people on platforms. He can grab ledge from farther than it looks, though his recovery still isn't fantastic.
1:08 that might be part of the reason, but it could also be a reference to the fact that meny of the original Game and Watch games actually stared mario. I think that's a very cute reference ifit was the real reason. :)
To sum it up, Game and Watch in Melee is exactly like his inclusion in the game.
Really damn weird.
IIRC people guessed that he was added very late in development because in melee's debug menu, the character's ID numbers are sorted by when they were added into the game and him and Ganon are the last two
That's what I was thinking, I checked in the Debug menu and he wasn't second last, and in M-ex he's third last, but I know for a fact I've heard that before
Who was the first? Curious.
@@lieutenantpepper3421 Mario, Fox and Falcon are the first three listed in Mextool, while G&W, Ganon and Roy are last
@@BigYellowSilly Huh. I assumed it'd be Kirby or something, but those make sense.
@@BigYellowSilly in an AsumSaus video he points out that Roy doesn't have a black and red nameplate like everyone else on the character selection screen, but a pure black one. Roy is definitely the last added, I know that for almost a fact because he was added at the announcement of fire emblem 6, which hadn't even been released yet, making Roy the only original smash character, who guest-starred in FE lmao