As a 30+ year IT veteran, I _never_ expected to hear the term "tech debt" used in a genealogical video. Thanks for the chuckle, lol. Also, I agree that your supposition is the likely cause of the shuttering. For non-technical folks, think of tech debt in the same way you think of credit card debt and the interest it accrues. The longer you take to deal with the debt, the further in the hole it actually puts you.
I think it’s something that should be talked about more in genealogy! There are too many horror stories of data being lost because it’s on obsolete media or in an obsolete format. 😞
Struggling with this since we are talking about active online databases, so they need to be on hard drives or SSDs, not external storage. If it was on, say, CD, then it would have to be mounted to be used. Live data is ported from disk to disk easily. Storage is very cheap compared to the old days and the Rootsweb content is text, easily compressible. I think it's more likely that it is a huge archive that isn't being used very much. I'd be interested in seeing how much new email traffic is going through the mailing list. My guess is that it has dropped so much that the cost to maintain is simply too high for the demand.
The archive is how a relative found my old post looking for info on my father’s 1st cousin. He was able to email me because I still had the same mail address.
This is why I still have paper originals and copies of electronic images in my tangible files. I also have a larger collection of files that are on my computers. I then copy them to my blogs-keeping the “originals” in place. I need to print out my 1000+ pages of my blogs. Thank you for more ideas of backups.
Regarding paper. I lost all my photos and paper genealogy when my home was gutted by a fire. I suggest to always have multiple types of backups. Also, take pictures of any heirlooms, if they are harmed, at least you will have a photo.
This has been very informative. Thank you. One tends to panic when the big companies make such announcements, but your explanation and suggestions helped to get me going to save what's meaning for my family tree. I have had an unknown cousin contact me years after I placed my search question there.
Just found your video here and you. This is a sobering reminder for me to rethink my record keeping that began on Rootsweb and those mailing lists. Everything broke open for my research via Rootsweb email and other researchers exchanging info like family Bibles that are now gone. Ancestry is great, but I struggle with going to the public facing family tree, as it is very vulnerable to misuses and misappropriation. Fear the impacts of genetics and genealogy for future generations. Thank you for all you are doing.
This list, to me, is one record of our recent history of genealogy research and the contributions that others have made. It’s too bad, I didn’t even realize it existed. It’s a modern example of how fragile data records are.
You are so helpful. I just hit the subscribed bell I thought that I had in past but I did not. My husband is an IT guy. I am going have him set up my records. You made some good points.
Create a memory stick, on which you can store everything, family photos, census records, family letters etc etc, including a GED file which can be downloaded onto Ancestry or other . Then other family members can add to it and pass it on to their new husband or wife and children and hopefully on it goes. My problem is how to pass on documents and letters etc that are over 150 years old!
I have driven my hubby crazy with all the paper genealogy I have - print-outs, hand scribbled notes, pedigree charts, notebooks and file folders full. He wanted me to put it all online or digitize it all. I am glad I still have my original things in spite of it being boxes full (Most of us have similar). I have e-mails on the roots web lists as you mention from the late 1990s+. Yes the drives have changed and same with CD/DVD and VHS tapes (I have one snippet only of my late father a couple of weeks before he died and we lived a long distance from him so it was a nice memory and still is).
As a 50+ year IT professional, I understand “tech debt “ , to convert some the older file formats requires someone with grey hair, unfortunately our education system only teaches the latest and greatest software formats and today’s IT professionals have no clue how to convert the older files.
50 years would put you in the era of the Intel 4004, creation of C and the time just before TCP/IP was developed. Impressive! From a genealogical standpoint, I sure hope you're capturing your memoirs for future generations to read! (But I think it might be a little unfair to categorically say today's IT professionals have no clue about the older formats. Some of the data engineering folks I work with are pretty sharp and I wouldn't put it past them to get the job done.)
Long before Intel, first computer I used was an IBM 1401 with punch cards for input. The first job I was involved with was converting punch cards to 2400 ft reels of magnetic tape. Every few years those records would have to be converted again to newer technology tapes and eventually they were converted to CD-ROM but like this video I informed the company that CD-ROM was not a permanent solution and the records required conversion every time there is new storage technology that obsoletes the older version. Before I retired three years ago there was a team attempting to convert a database from about 2005 vintage that would no longer work on the latest version of Windows. I offered to help them before I retired and we could be finished in a week if they would use a conversion utility that I could write in a few hours, they said they didn’t need my help and latest word from my former coworkers, is three years later they are still working on the conversion. By the time they are finished they will have to convert it again as Windows will have changed again.Meanwhile on the mainframe computers some of the programs that I assist writing 50+ years ago are still running without conversion and the mainframes have been updated about every five years to the latest technology.
I don’t know that I completely agree that today’s IT pros don’t know how to convert older files. We have to acknowledge that often the decisions about migration are made by departments with no idea about what really needs to be done.
Some types of data are an easy convert like text data stored in an ISO standard character and it is only using the US English character set. Receive business data from a bilingual country that was stored in a non ISO character code with a combination of binary data and binary coded data(BCD) with binary byte count fields at beginning of the record and checksums at the end of the record and the binary data is not in IEE format but from a mainframe computer that no longer exists. Let the today’s IT professionals have at it.
Regarding backups: every year we give each of our kids a new external hard drive with all the family photos and genealogical files. I'm currently in the process of downloading all documents to my computer. I started with myself and I'm working working back through my pedigree tree to make sure I don't miss anyone. When (if) I complete that I'll start working sideways on the tree.
We lost everything in the bushfire here in Australia four years ago. I cannot start to tell you what was in that house! 😢 Something to think about is saving stuff to a free email address, I use Yahoo, and email yourself photos, files, anything. Also good for insurance photos.
When I first started saving data it was on cassette tape. My first hard drive was a whopping 64 meg which cost over $600.00 at the time. Big change over time.
Aren't the Rootsweb mailing lists also integrated into the Ancestry message boards? Or is that only for messages posted on the mailing list after the Ancestry buyout (i.e. ca 2000)?
When i find an online article about a family member, I always print it because I have gone back to some several years later and the link is no longer there. Would it be stored at archives or some other place?
34:51: Fires, pets, insects, sun damage, yellowing, natural disasters (flooding, hurricanes, etc.) paper is not immune either. Otherwise, these are great tips!
I had a personal PC, but we didn't have harddrives back then and saved information on floppy disks and diskettes. I used the message board at Rootsweb... and I am glad that at least the board will be available for free on Ancestry. I had AOL, Yahoo, Netscape, State University of New York's "freenet". Are they "deleting " records?!
I tend to doubt that. They’re already getting as revenue from the ads displayed on the pages. Plus, there would be an even bigger outcry from the community since all of the data was done freely by individuals, and the understanding when Ancestry bought RootsWeb was that it would remain free to use.
This is so sad. I found most of my ancestry on those mailing lists, and the best thing was that they were free. I have them listed as sources for some of my findings. Wow. So sad. I understand about compatibility, though. I have old GED files that none of the new programs can read.
I highly doubt it. The emails are already publicly available. Plus, the value of any such list would be minimal, considering how old many of the addresses are.
I no longer subscribe to Ancestry. It's too expensive. And a lot of the records I went back to print later only had transcription; no original records. Where are the records going??? Also, the family search site has become so cluttered with junk graphics that it is impossible to use. Genealogy is becoming a dinasour.
Do you mean all of the mailing list archive becoming a new “collection”? I don’t. Ancestry says it will be “migrated to a new free platform,” but there are no details and no timetable. It seems to be completely up in the air what will eventually happen to it.
@@AmyJohnsonCrowFrom my experience in the tech field this would suggest that there is a decent chance that it won't even happen. Especially since this was hiding back in the support pages.
Literally just came across this video lol so yeah safe to say rootsweb doesn't really impact me. I haven't been in the genealogy scene long enough for rootsweb to have been an integral part of my research.
It depends on the state and the time period. Many states have a waiting period for the records to go public, but after that, many of them are available online.
I think it matters, because there are still millions of messages in there. My bigger point, though, is how we each need to take steps to preserve our own research and records.
@@AmyJohnsonCrow Yes, it definitely does matter. I have used the Rootsweb message boards back in the day but not lately. My tree has expanded a lot since that time and I never looked at certain surnames. When I heard that it is going away, I started looking at those names. I have found many posts that have new clues and avenues for met to research. I found a tree that was different from a lot of other trees that went back a couple of generations. I also found messages from a person that is a DNA matchh with me but she had a private unsearchable tree. I now know how I am related to her by her messages because she used the same name as she did on the DNA website. Information always matters no matter how old!
I'm waiting for Ancestry to integrate Find a Grave into their system and then shut it down. There are already people using FAG as a family tree with anything and everything that isn't a part of FINDING THE ACTUAL GRAVE. Plus, people download stuff for free from FAG and then upload it to Ancestry, then Ancestry wants to charge everyone for access to it! Now Ancestry even charges to review photos that more often aren't correct anyway if they came from FAG. Both sites are now royal cluster FKs.
I don't know about Ancestry but I for one am deleting records from Find a Grave. I've deleted every memorial that I ever created and still managed. Currently, I'm in the middle of deleting THOUSANDS of photos from the 6 1/2 years I VOLUNTEERED there. They p!ssed me off so bad that I finally snapped and said to h3ll with it. I'm not doing it anymore. It stopped being fun a LONG time ago and became more like a job that you HATED but had to go to. Now I've gotten it through my skull that I don't HAVE to be there helping out! Let them find someone else to put up with their shite. *I quit!*
I hear you!! I was involved with RootsWeb in the early days. I worked my heart out. Don't remember the lady's name or the exact circumstances but she calling all the shots with RootsWeb. People were up in arms. Maybe she was kicking people off she didn't like. Maybe it was not allowing people to access their own data. I supposed I'd rather not remember. I was so angry. I quit. And I quit it ALL. I wasn't doing my own research; I was putting tons of valuable records from the community where I live. It was their loss. I went on with my life and have just returned to do some of my own research in the last month or so.
As a 30+ year IT veteran, I _never_ expected to hear the term "tech debt" used in a genealogical video. Thanks for the chuckle, lol. Also, I agree that your supposition is the likely cause of the shuttering.
For non-technical folks, think of tech debt in the same way you think of credit card debt and the interest it accrues. The longer you take to deal with the debt, the further in the hole it actually puts you.
I think it’s something that should be talked about more in genealogy! There are too many horror stories of data being lost because it’s on obsolete media or in an obsolete format. 😞
Struggling with this since we are talking about active online databases, so they need to be on hard drives or SSDs, not external storage. If it was on, say, CD, then it would have to be mounted to be used. Live data is ported from disk to disk easily. Storage is very cheap compared to the old days and the Rootsweb content is text, easily compressible. I think it's more likely that it is a huge archive that isn't being used very much. I'd be interested in seeing how much new email traffic is going through the mailing list. My guess is that it has dropped so much that the cost to maintain is simply too high for the demand.
The archive is how a relative found my old post looking for info on my father’s 1st cousin. He was able to email me because I still had the same mail address.
This is why I still have paper originals and copies of electronic images in my tangible files.
I also have a larger collection of files that are on my computers.
I then copy them to my blogs-keeping the “originals” in place.
I need to print out my 1000+ pages of my blogs.
Thank you for more ideas of backups.
Regarding paper. I lost all my photos and paper genealogy when my home was gutted by a fire. I suggest to always have multiple types of backups. Also, take pictures of any heirlooms, if they are harmed, at least you will have a photo.
This has been very informative. Thank you. One tends to panic when the big companies make such announcements, but your explanation and suggestions helped to get me going to save what's meaning for my family tree. I have had an unknown cousin contact me years after I placed my search question there.
Spring Grove Cemetery is amazing. I'm so glad that I was able to find the burial records for some of my ancestors.
Excellent information provided in this video. Thank you very much for your service in the field of genealogy.
Well explained. Valuable reminder to copy and backup records. Thank you.
What you are saying makes SO MUCH SENCE, I have never thought about it that way.
sense*
Just found your video here and you. This is a sobering reminder for me to rethink my record keeping that began on Rootsweb and those mailing lists. Everything broke open for my research via Rootsweb email and other researchers exchanging info like family Bibles that are now gone. Ancestry is great, but I struggle with going to the public facing family tree, as it is very vulnerable to misuses and misappropriation. Fear the impacts of genetics and genealogy for future generations. Thank you for all you are doing.
This list, to me, is one record of our recent history of genealogy research and the contributions that others have made. It’s too bad, I didn’t even realize it existed. It’s a modern example of how fragile data records are.
This video prompted me to rip an audio CD that my maternal grandfather made where he talks about his life into digital files.
Awesome! That’s a great step in preserving your family history!
breaks my heart to hear that, even a year later - came here to learn about tech debt, but I remember using those lists all the time.....
Great video
Always download a source/record and re-upload it (Ancestry) so you always have the record, along with keeping a copy on your computer.
You are so helpful. I just hit the subscribed bell I thought that I had in past but I did not. My husband is an IT guy. I am going have him set up my records. You made some good points.
What a great explanation of tech debt and how to deal with it for possible implications for the future.
Thank you!
Create a memory stick, on which you can store everything, family photos, census records, family letters etc etc, including a GED file which can be downloaded onto Ancestry or other . Then other family members can add to it and pass it on to their new husband or wife and children and hopefully on it goes. My problem is how to pass on documents and letters etc that are over 150 years old!
I have driven my hubby crazy with all the paper genealogy I have - print-outs, hand scribbled notes, pedigree charts, notebooks and file folders full. He wanted me to put it all online or digitize it all. I am glad I still have my original things in spite of it being boxes full (Most of us have similar). I have e-mails on the roots web lists as you mention from the late 1990s+. Yes the drives have changed and same with CD/DVD and VHS tapes (I have one snippet only of my late father a couple of weeks before he died and we lived a long distance from him so it was a nice memory and still is).
Thank you, Amy, I appreciate the information.
Maybe a volunteer group can print off as pages and scan back into record like freedmen's bureau records
As a 50+ year IT professional, I understand “tech debt “ , to convert some the older file formats requires someone with grey hair, unfortunately our education system only teaches the latest and greatest software formats and today’s IT professionals have no clue how to convert the older files.
50 years would put you in the era of the Intel 4004, creation of C and the time just before TCP/IP was developed. Impressive! From a genealogical standpoint, I sure hope you're capturing your memoirs for future generations to read!
(But I think it might be a little unfair to categorically say today's IT professionals have no clue about the older formats. Some of the data engineering folks I work with are pretty sharp and I wouldn't put it past them to get the job done.)
Long before Intel, first computer I used was an IBM 1401 with punch cards for input. The first job I was involved with was converting punch cards to 2400 ft reels of magnetic tape. Every few years those records would have to be converted again to newer technology tapes and eventually they were converted to CD-ROM but like this video I informed the company that CD-ROM was not a permanent solution and the records required conversion every time there is new storage technology that obsoletes the older version.
Before I retired three years ago there was a team attempting to convert a database from about 2005 vintage that would no longer work on the latest version of Windows. I offered to help them before I retired and we could be finished in a week if they would use a conversion utility that I could write in a few hours, they said they didn’t need my help and latest word from my former coworkers, is three years later they are still working on the conversion. By the time they are finished they will have to convert it again as Windows will have changed again.Meanwhile on the mainframe computers some of the programs that I assist writing 50+ years ago are still running without conversion and the mainframes have been updated about every five years to the latest technology.
I don’t know that I completely agree that today’s IT pros don’t know how to convert older files. We have to acknowledge that often the decisions about migration are made by departments with no idea about what really needs to be done.
Some types of data are an easy convert like text data stored in an ISO standard character and it is only using the US English character set. Receive business data from a bilingual country that was stored in a non ISO character code with a combination of binary data and binary coded data(BCD) with binary byte count fields at beginning of the record and checksums at the end of the record and the binary data is not in IEE format but from a mainframe computer that no longer exists. Let the today’s IT professionals have at it.
Regarding backups: every year we give each of our kids a new external hard drive with all the family photos and genealogical files. I'm currently in the process of downloading all documents to my computer. I started with myself and I'm working working back through my pedigree tree to make sure I don't miss anyone. When (if) I complete that I'll start working sideways on the tree.
We lost everything in the bushfire here in Australia four years ago. I cannot start to tell you what was in that house! 😢 Something to think about is saving stuff to a free email address, I use Yahoo, and email yourself photos, files, anything. Also good for insurance photos.
Create a family book and pass out copies for the family. Create new volumes if significantly more information is found and added.
...and give copy of it to local historical society if they're interested, for other people to search if needed for their own genealogy research.
When I first started saving data it was on cassette tape. My first hard drive was a whopping 64 meg which cost over $600.00 at the time. Big change over time.
This reminds me I use to have a Rootsweb page. This makes me miss it. I forgot why I couldn't have a web page on there anymore.
Aren't the Rootsweb mailing lists also integrated into the Ancestry message boards? Or is that only for messages posted on the mailing list after the Ancestry buyout (i.e. ca 2000)?
Some of them are, but by no means all.
I DON'T EVER put my tree online. I did one time, and a "cousin" posted angry words directed at me.
When i find an online article about a family member, I always print it because I have gone back to some several years later and the link is no longer there. Would it be stored at archives or some other place?
Outstanding (and terrifying 😮) video!
34:51: Fires, pets, insects, sun damage, yellowing, natural disasters (flooding, hurricanes, etc.) paper is not immune either.
Otherwise, these are great tips!
You’re right - no matter the media, there are steps we need to take to preserve it. It doesn’t happen by itself!
I had a personal PC, but we didn't have harddrives back then and saved information on floppy disks and diskettes. I used the message board at Rootsweb... and I am glad that at least the board will be available for free on Ancestry. I had AOL, Yahoo, Netscape, State University of New York's "freenet". Are they "deleting " records?!
9.25+ Perhaps Ancestry is planning to charge (pay per view / search) for access to the RootsWeb email archives?
I tend to doubt that. They’re already getting as revenue from the ads displayed on the pages. Plus, there would be an even bigger outcry from the community since all of the data was done freely by individuals, and the understanding when Ancestry bought RootsWeb was that it would remain free to use.
This is so sad. I found most of my ancestry on those mailing lists, and the best thing was that they were free. I have them listed as sources for some of my findings. Wow. So sad. I understand about compatibility, though. I have old GED files that none of the new programs can read.
I have to wonder if Ancestry is going to sell those e-mail address.
I highly doubt it. The emails are already publicly available. Plus, the value of any such list would be minimal, considering how old many of the addresses are.
I need a lesson(s) in how to do all the tech stuff. I really have little idea.
Does anybody know if people archived the mailing lists to say the internet archive?
I no longer subscribe to Ancestry. It's too expensive. And a lot of the records I went back to print later only had transcription; no original records. Where are the records going??? Also, the family search site has become so cluttered with junk graphics that it is impossible to use. Genealogy is becoming a dinasour.
The people that run these sites have failed all of us. Now it's back to notebooks, pens, and the local library or town hall or records office.
I put my paper copies in plastic protector sleeves and i seal the top with tape.
Leave a gap where you seal it up. Otherwise, you’re making a terrarium. Any moisture that is trapped inside can do damage (and it doesn’t take much).
@@AmyJohnsonCrow Thank you for the tip. I will most definitely do it.
How do you know that it's just not being absorbed into one listing ???
Do you mean all of the mailing list archive becoming a new “collection”? I don’t. Ancestry says it will be “migrated to a new free platform,” but there are no details and no timetable. It seems to be completely up in the air what will eventually happen to it.
@@AmyJohnsonCrowFrom my experience in the tech field this would suggest that there is a decent chance that it won't even happen. Especially since this was hiding back in the support pages.
I thought it was already shut down.
I never heard of that mailing list so it does not impact me. I started ancestry in 2012.
Literally just came across this video lol so yeah safe to say rootsweb doesn't really impact me. I haven't been in the genealogy scene long enough for rootsweb to have been an integral part of my research.
That’s crazy you can’t see marriage license and death certificates. The states want you to buy them in 2024
It depends on the state and the time period. Many states have a waiting period for the records to go public, but after that, many of them are available online.
What does it matter. Many surnames are already gone in the mailing lists and in World Connect many trees are empty.
I think it matters, because there are still millions of messages in there. My bigger point, though, is how we each need to take steps to preserve our own research and records.
@@AmyJohnsonCrow Yes, it definitely does matter. I have used the Rootsweb message boards back in the day but not lately. My tree has expanded a lot since that time and I never looked at certain surnames. When I heard that it is going away, I started looking at those names. I have found many posts that have new clues and avenues for met to research. I found a tree that was different from a lot of other trees that went back a couple of generations. I also found messages from a person that is a DNA matchh with me but she had a private unsearchable tree. I now know how I am related to her by her messages because she used the same name as she did on the DNA website. Information always matters no matter how old!
As always: It's all about the money!!! $$$$$$$ The need for greed!!!
I'm waiting for Ancestry to integrate Find a Grave into their system and then shut it down. There are already people using FAG as a family tree with anything and everything that isn't a part of FINDING THE ACTUAL GRAVE. Plus, people download stuff for free from FAG and then upload it to Ancestry, then Ancestry wants to charge everyone for access to it! Now Ancestry even charges to review photos that more often aren't correct anyway if they came from FAG. Both sites are now royal cluster FKs.
I don't know about Ancestry but I for one am deleting records from Find a Grave. I've deleted every memorial that I ever created and still managed. Currently, I'm in the middle of deleting THOUSANDS of photos from the 6 1/2 years I VOLUNTEERED there. They p!ssed me off so bad that I finally snapped and said to h3ll with it. I'm not doing it anymore. It stopped being fun a LONG time ago and became more like a job that you HATED but had to go to. Now I've gotten it through my skull that I don't HAVE to be there helping out! Let them find someone else to put up with their shite.
*I quit!*
I hear you!! I was involved with RootsWeb in the early days. I worked my heart out. Don't remember the lady's name or the exact circumstances but she calling all the shots with RootsWeb. People were up in arms. Maybe she was kicking people off she didn't like. Maybe it was not allowing people to access their own data. I supposed I'd rather not remember. I was so angry. I quit. And I quit it ALL. I wasn't doing my own research; I was putting tons of valuable records from the community where I live. It was their loss. I went on with my life and have just returned to do some of my own research in the last month or so.
There is no picture