Lunging locomotives finally grip the rails as CSX 419 stalls. PART I... Read story...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- CSX 419 & 411 with loaded coal train V605 stalls coming off the Salsbury Branch just outside Meyersdale, PA. The engineer informs the dispatcher that they have no sand. Watch closely as these two brutt AC4400 actually lunge, and bounce up and down trying to get traction coming up the steep grade of the branch to the mainline. With the locomotives in #8 notch, the hood doors viberate, and you can here the wheels grinding in the sand. It may be a slow video, but you will see what it takes to get this train rolling. The crew in the helper engines never left the comfort of their warm cab in the 19 degree weather. The crew, and some railfans hand sand the rails, and V605 backs up to get a second run for it, and finally makes it out. The whole ordeal to well over an hour. There is now a second clip (PART II) of the progress of the train heading west before it heads east to Cumberland, MD. Hope you enjoy it, and thanks for watching. jackmp294 01-04-2003
Link to PART II...
• Part II, of Lunging lo...
here is the link to smooth running of V605 down the other side of Sand Patch after meeting the west bound K111 slab train..
• Part III, of Lunging l...
John 3:16
For life changing messages that will make a difference in your life, tune into pastor Bill Bailey at Journey By Grace.
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Thanks Bob, There is nothing like mountain railroading. Winters can be a little harsh. Take care, Jack...
Man, she's down on her knees and pulling hard! If I was that crew, I'd 1. Settle a score with those who didn't fill the sand box and 2. Settle a score with the fellows in the helper engines. Mighty nice of them to just sit and watch! Great description, too!
That was really cool.I have never seen a train stall before.I've seen the Emergency Stops but never a stall.Thanks for sharing this event.
Fascinating. I could not believe the guy putting handfuls of sand from a plastic baggie onto the track. Never seen (or imagined) such a thing. Shows how the physics of the train and its connection to the rails can depend on the most minute elements and aspects. Reminds me of a video on the history of the Japanese bullet trains, and the explanation of how the re-engineered traditional wheels and angle at which they meet the rails in order to handle the high speed. Thanks for posting.
Most have not realized that AC motors don't overload, or thought they were DC locomotives as those would over load. Another thing he doesn't get is the engineer has to do what he needs to do to get the train under way, even if it wasn't good for the traction motors. But they are AC motors and so it doesn't hurt them.
Thanks for posting these video's! Winter railroading poses many challenges for the railroad. I have seen 6 sd-40's almost stall out on the subdivision I work on a few years ago and that was with sanders on. You are correct with that fellow, prob does live on flatland and not up higher in the elevation. I have watched quite a few of your video's. Good captures, keep filming.
DOH! A nice catch of a real life railroad situation. Thx for sharing.
Where i live is a CN Crew change point (Sarnia Ontario). There are no grades here but when the new crew calls in for a signal to get going they must tell the dispatcher how much fuel and sand they have in the units. CN may have gone through this in the past and is one reason they give this info to the dispatch. Cool video, thanks!
Now that's where PRIDE comes into play.I as a retired locomotive engineer,5th generation railroader.I would have brought my locomotives over to the engine house,told the foreman to get his lazy laborer out and put sand in my locomotives and make sure that the sanders are working,or as me having PRIDE in my job would have done this myself.Nothing against you, but do you see the key word PRIDE.That word I am afraid has been lost in most of the workforce in our country.As you may see I am bored,and could tell you some great stories about my experiences on the railroad,going above my job and getting the job done SAFELY and efficiently. I was called a company man buy many.I was. I never told on anyone or got anybody in trouble.I made my crew do their job and if they didn't like it. I would make their lives miserable,so they would go onto another job.We had 3 crew members on our yard jobs.After i got a good crew that did their jobs(PRIDE).We were like living gods.All bosses and other railroaders,had nothing but respect and admiration for our crew.Got to go,thanks for responding.
Ronald Melhorn Good crews are invaluable and it sounds like you were part of one. But...today's railroading is not necessarily railroading of the past. Often there is no "engine house". Often things are changing so frequently that sometimes from day to day your bosses change. Railroading today is dramatically different than 20 years ago.
Giants almost beaten by frozen water! Great video!
Fantastic catch! This is real hardcore railroading.
It is amazing to think that 8,800 Horse Power, just isn't enough to pull that train! Nice video Jack.
Wow! That's railroading. Thank you for sharing the video and the details.
Very interesting, I don't know much about locomotives but this was wild. A little bag of sand to get that immense weight moving, improbable!!
WOW what a cool catch Jack! Never seen that before! Thanks!
Fascinating video to watch Jack, and well done for filming in such conditions..5*..Bob
Great video. And an excellent catch of stalling!
I enjoy the competition. Keep the responses coming.
Wow, thanks for posting this! Good zoom in on the wheels. Talk about slippage. The ammeter must have been maxxed out.
GREAT video. I am going to try to get to W.Newton, and see what I can find. Everytime I go, I seem to leave with nothing. Hopefully Thursday will be a good day.
I've been at that point, only with a light locomotive trying to climb a grade when the rails are covered with snow, packed snow, and some ice: not fun, and the temperature doesn't help. Thanks for sharing.
It looks a damn cold winter day. Thanks for sharing. You have some great videos! :)
@trainfart 19 degrees! It sure was bone chilling! Glad you enjoyed it. Take care...
True determination.
Ask any railroad employee in the country. Nothing stops the railroad. Nothing. Not twenty feet of snow, not locomotive failure, not even running out sand. True mountain railroading is a tough challenge that these people have accepted. I salute those who control these marvels of technology.
But they are independently owned and operated. Each functions without taxpayer dollars (besides Amtrak.) "How would you like it if the government built a highway right beside your railroad to take away your business?" Once said a railroad owner.
The nearest crossover is about 5 miles west at Garrett. At Garrett, the power will run around its train and head east, back past this spot. The helpers will also run to Garrett, get on the rear-end, and shove it up to SandPatch.
@TheLegoair If you read the discription it is out of sand. EMD would do this to. GE's are not bad, maybe it's your opinion but, they are just as good as EMD. My point if it does not matter who makes the engine if you don't have sand this will happen to any locomotives EMD or GE
Awesome Video! I don't see this happen too often! Nice Catch!
realmente espectacular. Gracias por compartirlo. Saludos Carlos desde Argentina
Lived in Japan while in the Navy, their equipment,tracks,signaling,bullet trains are light years ahead of CSX!
A great video by a great railfan
Cool video, always nice to see railway operations in the real world.
There will always be a compromise between engineering and cost, it's sad fact of life I'm afraid.
The expertise of the crew is to be commended.
Wish I was a train driver in America
Great catch! Very interesting.
The wheels have metal bands around them. The bands are heated to a ver high temp to make them expand, then put around the wheel and then let to cool. This provides traction and protects the wheel.
With the wheels spinning in the video, I was thinking the tires were getting extra wear,
@GEES44DC The train never needed to double out. They ran the train westabout 5 miles to Garrett, PA. At Garrett, the helpers tied on to the rear after the AC44's dropped the train and ran to the other end. After they couple back onto there train, the helpers will begin to shove the train east up to Sand Patch, passing the spot where this clip started.
But then again lovely vid!
Great catch!!
Winter pleasure ;) great shot!
Maintenance of way just loves this stuff
LOL Good catch. They should have sent him a pusher LOL the man with the bag of sand was like spitting into the wind. I have had to clean out the sand pipes many times when it gets damp it wont work.
Great video Jack! I agree with the one of the comments...I'd hate to have been the poor bastard standing right there if that thing grabbed hold at Notch 8.
This is a great train video.
What I'd like to is: How far to the nearest crossover? I can't see a nearby helper crew not help their brothers in need without a really good reason. I agree that its events like this that make railroading so interesting to me. PA in the winter... Yeah baby!
CSX 419 is back to it's duties.
Glad you enjoyed it. I got a lot more film of the train. After he got it rolling, the helpers passing the train, and doing the power swap at Garrett, because the train actually had to go in the opposite direction of the branch he came off of. .. Jackmp294
It's amazing what a little ice can do
I threw sand under slipping equipment many times. These were huge cranes, track machines, and other equipment that didn't necessary carry sand, yet we HAD to get the machines underway somehow. It usually was because of wet rail or mechanical failure. I am amazed at some of the comments of the non-railroaders and the "foamers" who drool over slipping equipment!
I see, feeding the train bread crumbs to coax it up the rails. Brilliant!
They where sitting there waiting for this train to come out on the mainline. Then they have to get on the rear of this train and shove it east up the hill to Sand Patch tunnel. Its a pretty steep grade up to the tunnel, and need power on the front & rear of the train. Thanks for watching. Jack
@foroke1 I don't think being out of sand is going to help EMD either! Thanks for watching...
Locomotive consists are built at the point of origin by calculating tonnage of the train and horsepower required based on the greatest "grade" (slope of terrain ) the train will encounter during its run. This is sometimes known as a power plan. Shown as the ratio HP/Ton. The grade is shown as a percentage. ( 0% being flat and 100% being straight up vertical) 0-6 percent or more is normal with 6 being a very steep grade. The bigger the grade the higher the ratio of HP/Ton required.Weather factor
awesome post, Thanks for sharing that
One would think that when locomotives are serviced, that there is usually a sand tower right where they get fueled up at.
He probobly lives someplace flat, and dry CSX trackwork! Doesn't have a clue! and SIEMENS??? LOL. That's one heck of a grade coming out of there with snow and ice on the rail, and about 10000 tons on the drawbar! Those AC4400 where doing a fine job, and did it. In it was a non-AC locomotive. They would have burned up the traction motors. Being 19 degrees, the sanders could have been froze up also. Thanks for watching...
@canadiantimberwolf1 Glad you enjoyed it. I have seen it several times, but this was the first time I captured it on film. Take care, Jackmp294.5...
Thats right. The change ends just to the west at Garrett, and shoved the train up to Sand Patch.
The rail traffic signal for that specific track that coal train was on at the time turned green which means clear at the time the train just started moving that is why it was moving so slow.
wow! I caught something like this in my Plant City video- These AC44's have a HTE computer program- I realize they were out of sand...Huh...anyways cool video! This is why I love trains! Awsome!
The epitome of union work! One crew busts their ass while another sits and watches from comfortable surroundings! Great vid though!
The helper crew was waiting for this train. They had to follow it to Garrett, run the power around both ends, then the helpers where to shove the train east to Cumberland. Thats why we couldn't undrestand this mess. The helper where going to tie on to this train anyway. Thanks for watching. Jackmp294...
awesome......simply awesome.
@JerryNSretired Reminds me of when our 44tonner's sanders did not work. We were trying to pull our 0-6-0 which was sitting for many years & there was a lot of wheelslip. We made a few crew members get handfull's of sand and throw it under the wheels, it worked & got us moving & that's what counts
By applying the independent brake, you can heat up the wheels so they melt the snow and ice as soon as they touch it. Not in training manual, but with those plastic brake shoes, it works wonders. In B.C. C.P. trains used to constantly run out of, or have frozen sand in the sandbox or sand nozzles.
While switching in Trail B.C. with the grades, I would often run around with independent brake applied, to gain traction and to be able to stop on greasy rails. Ever since the railways did away with cast iron brake shoes, the composite shoes made it dangerous for stopping. Especially on frozen or greasy rail. They will likely never agree? Yet it's a fact. When the brake shoes are cold, stopping is difficult. My life was way more important to me, than another set of shoes or even wheels. It's how the old timers, got rid of flat wheels. Apply the independent brake lightly and then let them smooth the wheels out.
How does applying the brake work to smooth the wheels out? Wouldn't it make the wheel more likely to stay in the flat spot?
Mark Rose -NO! ... In a word.
The composite brake shoes in cold weather have a very poor grip. The wheels need to be warmed up to melt the snow and ice. You can pretty much apply brakes full pressure and they will not stop the engine wheels, especially when under throttle. If cast iron shoes are fitted? Then about 5 or 10lbs pressure will do the trick. In Canada most locos, now only have composite brake shoes. They are abysmal at stopping, on cold rail. I've been dragged or pushed by rail cars, trying to stop as much as fifteen car lengths on cold rail by composite brake shoes. You learn in a hurry to get them warm.
When wheel slip occurs, the electric power supplied to wheels has uneven load and the electronics seek to rectify this. This leads to conditions acerbated. Remember to get a flat spot, the wheel has to stop turning. Which also means - no pulling. That is happening under slip. To get a flat wheel, it has to slip for a very long way.
British Columbia has 5-6 months of snow and ice. Unlike most of continental U.S.
Switching rail yards are almost thing of the past.. A rail yard, teaches tricks unlike anywhere else on a system. You learn to run cars with or without air lines attached. Yardmen, for crew, who have little understanding of requirements of Loco operator. Now with automation using humps, etc. That experience is limited.
It is the wheel slip that needs to be under control. That can be helped by applying independent brake. Especially if sanding is sporadic which is often the case in cold weather. Any moisture in sand box becomes frozen, especially at nozzle near wheels. Sanding is now mostly automated. As companies seek to reduce costs, of filling with sand. Those automatic sanders only come on when slip is detected, which is fine if the slippage is constant. Mostly they come on and cut out when it stutters like that. The sand supply is uneven.
When, or if, we were supplied with engines that had wheels with flat spots. I would run the engine with independent brake applied, with about 5-10 lbs. of pressure which would slowly grind the flat spot out. Rail company's are only concerned with profit and meeting the requirements by law and regulation, at barest minimum. Profits always come above employees or equipment maintenance. After years of experience you learn tricks, that get the job done.
@Sparatan117 The plow desn't make contact with the rails. It is several inches above, and just plows the deeper snow, and drifts. The wheels tend to slip even with the emmense weight. Steel to steel. They will even slip in the rain, or when fall leaves lay on the track. Sand is used to get the trains rolling on slippery rail. If they remember to feel the sand boxes up. LOL
On the BNSF, it is a common practice to use DPU's on the rear of both loaded and empty coal trains, the most common are the 2x2 configuration but sometimes they will use the 3x1, 3x2, and once in a while they will put all three or sometimes up to four locomotives up front, the UP does the same as well, I guess the CSX operates differently.
Wow! Great video!
hello jack, Ferromex uses a Jordan spreader to remove it from the sides of the track but it doesnt work really good becouse sand is heavier and if the engine pushes to hard it derails the spreader, its a hard job to do .in older days crews just put a tie or two in front of the engine and sweeped it but that worked if there was a bit of sand only. When you run over sand it feels very strong and noisey specially with older engines a small amount of sand as little as a coin shakes everything.
Some of the squeal is a result of the steel on steel contact between the wheels and the rails. You get a lot of rail squeal when there isn't any sand or snow on them.
We where wondering the same thing. Also, why didn't the helper crew offer any assistance. Heck!!! They didn't even poke their head out the window.
@bluesguitardude These locomotives computer systems permit the wheels to do a certain amout of slipping on the rail to get the most traction. You hear the wheels spinning on the sanded rail. Thanks for watching. Jackmp294.5...
@sandytremps Sanders where working, the only problem was when the units where services, no one refilled the sand boxes. Thanks for watching...
Never knew that sand was used for trains to get them traction...never knew that this can be a problem...
What a way to run a railroad.
I dont know what anyone else thinks but from what I can see of those horns right above 8508's number plates it looks like an RS5T to me....last time I saw it there was an awesome RS5T on it.
I'll dig threw my files and see if I can pull some stuff out to continue this. In the meantime. If you check out more of my vid's, there are tons of these GE's working their butts off with no other sounds to drown them out. Take care, jackmp294
Wow !! That was great !!!
Interesting video. I'm surprised that some heat from those huge engines couldn't just be directed at the tracks and melt the ice. What am I missing?
Not enough heat, and to much weigh trying to start a heavy train up hill on ice, and wet rail.
@blueticecho No units on the hind end at this point. They are coming off a branch line after loading coal. The hind end units are waiting on the side. After the train gets on the meinline, they make a 5 mile run west, swap ends of trains, and the helper units get on to shove the train back east over the mountains. You will see that in part II video attached in the information section in this clip. Thanks for watching. Jackmp294.5...
8508 has a K5LAR24 that sounds like crap, and it's located in the rear now. It was stuck around here for a while too...
@bluesguitardude That is correct. The computer controls the slipping, just enough that is needed to get things moving...
On the BNSF, it is a common practice to use rear DPU's for both loaded and omty coal trains, we have 2x2, 3x1, 3x2 and sometimes they will have three or four locomotives all up front, I guess the CSX operates differently, the UP does the same practice as the BNSF as well.
Dang CSX needs to fill up their sanders, that's 2 expensive 'rail grinders' for power without it!
I've never seen diesels spin like that on the rails before. Not the first genius move for CSX for sure...Great shot! 5*****!
What shape would the wheels be in after that show? And the traction motors. It may be dedication to keeping the show moving, but surely there's a time to know when to just call for assistance.
If the unit had sand, it more than likely would have walked right out of there and never stalled. Wonder who was responsable for the service on those two units. Thanks for looking. Jackmp294
Reading through the comments. AC motors will burn out when stalled or running at very low speeds, unless the forced cooling is adequate and currents are carefully monitored and controlled. A banker locomotive at the back would have clean rails after all wagons had passed, and be very effective IMO.
I think you've got that bass-ackwards. Traditional DC motors can't be run for long periods at stall. That's why some heavy-haul railroads spend the extra bucks for AC traction. AC also allows for advanced traction control, which prevents track-damaging wheelslip.
Mark Stockman Pretty sure Rodalco knows his stuff when it comes to AC and DC.
Mark Stockman
AC motors can run at a high load longer than DC motors. That doesn't mean they can't get fucked up.
There is no short - time rating for AC units. You can stall a train with them and you won't damage the traction motors. Some of the old Alco and FM power had huge GE motors that far more powerful than what the tonnage ratings were.
Great video!!!
@kennethberto Is there some kind of powerful air compressor which could blow sand from the rails directly in front of the wheels or sweep sand from the rails?
How does the locomotive feel when you run over sand? Do the wheels ever slightly rise up on top of the sand?
No shovels carried in locomotives to lower your risk and speed sand removal?
Your English is very good.
Thank you.
fascinating vid. thanks for sharing
That would be to simple for CSX to figure out, since they will be coming right back threw here the opposite direction in less the an hour. Plus you would have to wake up the helper crew. We wouldn't want to disturb them...
it happened just near Port Darlington
they ended up build new rails beside it and they built a fence between 2 rails so if you wanted to see it you could without trespassing and they left it their as a reminder of that day and what could happen (Ontario lines are crap) we have had 6 accidents in the past 7 months all in the area of Darlington and Clarington.
Questions; Should they have been running faster in order to make the hill? Why were they out of sand? How is it that these loco's can bounce like that? I can see it in a car or truck but these machines are so heavy....
Great video & moments
So, did they have to put new tires on after that? I can imagines when those engines got to the shop - "We just retired the wheels last week. Now you want us to do it again?"
If the steamer was out of sand it wouldn't make it. These guys would walked right out of there if they had sand on the units. Someone screwed up when they serviced them... Thanks for watching.
@MentalBreakagePwn
Aren't they all controlled together by the lead with the MU cable?
Some time you wonder using a shovel to scrape the ice and snow off that is not much on the rail to get the trian moving. But that is a thought.
I wonder how much the repair bill was on the train and the track? With the amount of weight on those wheels, they might as well of been grinding wheels.
Don't know what the local rules are there but sometimes it pays to cut the locos off and run ahead dropping sand then come back and try again.
You never know!!! Its been on almost a year now, and has had almost 31000 views. Nothing yet. I guess it hasn't hit home yet. Thanks for watching...
It's sad to say the Salisbury branch is all but abandoned at this point. Its only use now is dead storage for a disused CSX caboose. That area would have been such a cool area to railfan.
No it isn't. We take coal trains in and out of there all the time.
God i was 5 years old in 2011, and this vid was only 2 years old! And when TH-cam wasnt a fuckin peice of shit that it is now.