Destiny 2 Lore - The Story of Namrask & The difficult questions of forgiving the Eliksni
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ย. 2024
- Destiny 2's Lore in the Season of the Splicer provides the floor for us to debate important moral questions surrounding the Eliksni. These questions revolve around the question of forgiveness & whether the Fallen have earned the right to be forgiven for their past crimes.
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There's Russian proverb literally meaning: He who dwells on the past lose an eye, he who forget it, lose both. There's no use in looking back at past, but forgetting means repeating it.
Sounds like a pretty good quote to live by
Given Russia long history of authoritatian rule by a small elite and enforced by secret police force, history really does repeat.
A wise proverb. I must use it sometime.
I like the quote the way Putin put it: "Those who dont cry after the soviet union have no heart, those who wish it back have no brain." ^^
@@nhancao4790 LMAO This "long" history covers 70 years of total more than thousand.
as admiral hood once said: "I remember how this war started. What your kind did to mine. I can't forgive you. But... you have my thanks, for standing by to the end."
Was thinking about this line the whole way through
Ron pearlman delivered that line really well
@@xvx_k1r1t0_xvxkillme7 in lore, Lord Hood is the biggest Why humanity didn´t lose earth besided the amount of badasses that died fighting for it.
@@xvx_k1r1t0_xvxkillme7 bro what lol dude littreally was defending earth.
Last Time I was this early, horus hadn't betrayed the emperor and thorn was still a rose.
Ha! WH40k reference
Strangely I just put down a Horus heresy book to watch this ….
@@jameshopcroft8743 Still waiting for the day Byf gets addicted to 40k. I can see him enjoying Eisenhorn.
For the might of our God Emperor
@@cryokami591 What space marine legion do you think he would belong to? Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons?
As a person who plays the game: Yes, unequivocally.
As an in game character: If the Eliksni want to try, I think we should try. We already kind of walked a mile in their shoes thanks to Ghaul.
True. The ghaul thing, as much shit as It usually gets could be seen as a hit of humilty
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 Very true
I agree Whole Heartedly.
Except we didn't chase down and seige another civilization our God chose over us and violent attack them for hundreds of years.
@@tbc1880 but didn't the house of light literally have nothing to do with that conflict? Or at least very little to do with it. Personally I'd forgive them but never forget
I think the story Bungie is telling and the message they’re trying to convey is the cycle of violence. As the saying goes “Violence begets violence begets violence. It’s an endless cycle until one forgives the other”. It’s very clear that Mithrax trusts the guardians and is willing to forgive them for they have done to his people. Even if the Fallen did begin the cycle of violence, the guardians, and humanity as a whole, would be fools to not forgive and end this ruthless cycle.
I wouldn’t say fools exactly the guardians being essentially immortal demi gods in a way and that was before we got the darkness that and humanity has won every conflict with the fallen I’m pretty sure the fallen would just end up getting wiped out with very little human loss overall so I can see why there are so many people in the last city who are willing to continue the war with the fallen and hold onto their hatred for them because it’s not like they’re the ones who are actually going to to go out and fight them it’ll be the immortal god like beings who rarely have any actual true deaths among them and almost always win
@@ivory867 I believe its more foolish in the sense of we definitely require allies to defeat the darkness, or at the very least survive it again
@@oreo-postraphe that is true but remember most of the people in the last city have very little information about anything really or just how powerful the darkness or any other threat is bc of that imo they just assume the guardians can handle it by themselves so they aren’t exactly thinking about gathering allies to battle this huge threat on it way and most of them probably wouldn’t even understand a need for it in the first place bc once again they don’t understand how powerful really any threat is to the city
@@oreo-postraphe I think it’s important to remember that you have to look at things from a regular person in the city point of view they have very little information about anything going on except for general themes of the light and darkness and main alien threats like the fallen you also should remember that humanity have been in war with the fallen for like 500 hundred years that’s insane that’s more then enough time for the very foundations of human culture and society to be built around fearing the fallen and either keeping them away or wiping them out at all cost I personally think the issue of the fallen being accepted into the city should have been done over a main expansion specifically for that purpose or maybe two it’s just to big of a thing to try to fit in three months if this had been the real world I imagine that the reaction to fallen being in the last city would have been much more aggressive and on a wider scale I’m talking mass riots and mass fear by the time of the first destiny I think most people would straight up just have a strong subconscious fear when seeing a fallen kinda like seeing a predator that you know is going to kill you
“Violence begets violence begets violence” .... why does that sound familiar
I find it funny that Lakshmi thinks that we’ll kick the house of light out of the city once Mithrax is done untangling the endless night.
@@xvx_k1r1t0_xvxkillme7 Executor Hideo? Is that who you're thinking about?
the fact that we have the only (to our knowledge) Sacred Splicer means that empirically the House Light is more valuable with us rather than against us. Being able to plunder Vex tech and study their future detecting simulations will be invaluable
MAybe even help us reach into the mind of the Traveler itself or at the least repair Ra Ra Rasputin
@@xvx_k1r1t0_xvxkillme7 that guy is like the king of shitty takes so I’m not surprised he thinks that lmaoo
Her death is gonna be more satisfying than oryx's
Bungie better let us personally pull the trigger on Lakshmi when she makes her move. I didn’t get to shoot Uldren, so let me shoot robot Hitler-Trump.
"If they work for the Light, They're alright!"
-Me, just now
Sounds great
Good quote
Amen brother!
Do you feel the same about the lucent brood?
@@AxisChurchDevotee If they don't use Fists of Havoc or Shadebinder, then yes
Oddly enough I think it will be easier for Guardians to forgive than the people of the Last City. We're near unkillable gods. Not many of us have permanently died at the hands of the Eliksni. We've certainly killed more of them than they have of us. The people on the other hand live in fear of them, the way the Eliksni live in fear of us.
another reason guardians might have an easier time forgiving is the fact that guardians never had family member to lose to the Eliksni, and the fact that guardians are less likely to have had loved ones taken from them by the eliksni invaders.
Well said. I didn't even think of those different perspectives.
Heck, this is already shown in game: Saint-14 is loved by all the children of the last city.
Except the Smallen.
And that hurts him so much.
Eh guardians may have no birth family but found family is definitely a thing. Zavala himself once had a wife and Ikora, Shaxx, Saint and Osiris have had lovers. Heck, Saint and Osiris are lovers. Overall your point still stands but I just want to point out the guardians aren’t Jedi, they’re allowed to form attachments and given their own personal reasons to fight for what they do.
@@storyseeker6028 Saladin's story echoes through your comment. He FOR SURE lost "found family" to Fallen, Cabal, Hive... Even to Rasputin.
And so, its hard for him to forgive without remembering the very long centuries of fighting threats against humanity. But even so, Saladin keeps walking forward.
Imagine being named norman and reading this lore book
Luckily you are ignition code
and you are Freddy Guy
mando
Luckily for me. I am certainly a human
Fuck I need to change my name
Usual videos: badass gameplay where byf rarely ever dies
This video: using Cerberus and chaos reaching blueberries
This debate can really be summed up in one figure of speech : "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." We can break out of this endless cycle of killing and war and learn to stand together against whatever darkness is coming or we can repeat our history and be doomed by it
Every Saint, you say...
@@63Limar I actually thought that was funny because it relates perfectly to Saint-14 in particular, as well as all of humanity and Eliksni
I just imagine Byf being one of the warlocks in charge of the city archives
Makes sense, but titan would be neat.
I love that he's embraced the lore daddy title it brings tears to my eyes
i see you
Crawling around my domain like insects
This realm answers only to one master
You are nothing
@@liedo3358 You know nothing of power.
I feel like the question of "Can we forgive the Eliksni?" is actually two, very distinct questions: "Can we forgive the Eliksni people?" is, I think, incredibly black and white: Obviously yes. Judging a whole people by the actions of some of its members is insane, especially when those people clearly reject the harm their bretheren have caused and seek to make amends. However, "Can we forgive individual Eliksni who have done harm" is an entirely different conversation. Now we're talking about individuals, and their individual crimes. Can we trust an individual who's proven themselves untrustworthy? Can those who have destroyed be allowed within reach? That's a much more personal question, and I don't begrudge anyone wanting to keep people they know to have done harm at arm's length. But we cannot mistake the Person for the People. To deny their individuality is to deny our own. For our own sake, if nothing else, we must see with eyes unclouded by hate.
My take is: if they are trying to make ammends and attone for their crimes, so be It.
They killed Many innocents, but Guardians hands are not clean of innocent Blood. Just look at Shaxx, he admits having killed Eliksni without a whim, not even caring they were innocent or not at that time. And in his time as warlord made Many crimes tinted as heroic.
We can make errors, whats important is if we are willing to grow better and correct them
I thought the same thing, there is no sin in blood, we are who we choose to be, not who our ancestors were.
But there is also a question of accountability, Mithrax himself has killed people both deserving and undeserving. Because he now pushes for peace can his crimes be forgiven?
Eliksni like Eido on the other hand have transgressed upon us and so there is nothing to forgive.
House Light is not all the fallen so they shouldn't be blamed for the crimes of their ancestors but they are a long lived species and monsters hide among them so I don't blame people for being scared.
i think we need to punish those people who wish to repent by forcing them to live for a long time and see every consequence of their actions. in that way, i think namrask is in a perfectly crafted purgatory of his own design. namrask sells cloths, and namrask must continue to sell cloths until every last thing he's ever been is purged away, and he's truly empty.
When it comes to forgiving Namrask if we apply real world ethics it's a difficult situation. Would you forgive Adolf H. If after many years he sees his mistake, regrets it and tries to redeem himself?
And if we take the perspective of the Eliksni, can we forgive any guardian when killed bilions of Eliksni?
What about war crimes committed by soldiers who were ordered to do so and didn't have a choice? Can they be excused if the situation was dire?
I encourage you to check out the interview with Ben Ferencz (about 14 minutes) and see what he has to say about the people who were prosecuted at Nuremberg trials. It's an important lesson
We can either forgive and move on, but still remember past sins so as not to repeat them. Or we can not forgive and just continue the cycle of reprisal and conflict until one side or the other is completely wiped out. The cycle needs to end.
"We must be better than this."
That line came from kratos. You know the guy who single handedly destroyed all of Greece
Violence only begets more violence. Whoever Namrask was before doesn't matter, if he truly wants to atone/move on.
I refuse to forgive him. But I refuse to give in to hatred either. His current existance is punishment enough - to know that he was the first to led his own civilisation into barbarism and despotism...
It's a hard balance, right. One can be forgiven AND be made to atone for their crimes. On one hand there's a parallel here with Saint, he being the Kell-breaker, etc. On the other is the difference between being a great warrior and purely wicked mass-murderer. Where on that continuum do Namrask and Saint fit? And where does justice fit with forgiveness?
This is not their home. They can go back to riis and fix their home. Instead of trying to scavenge humans technology
"Should we forgive the eliksni/fallen?" is not the right question. The question should be "Should we forgive *these* eliksni/fallen?" and my answer is yes. Not all eliksni are the same, just like not all humans are the same. Important distinction that those such as Lakshmi willfully overlook.
Yeah, the quick and dirty answer for me was 100% no doubt, yes; If the question was "Should we forgive the eliksni?". With the fact that no one race is a monolith, judging all eliksni by the worst of them aka fallen scavengers that have eaten children will only lead to more violence. The children of the last tower have done nothing wrong to those we are at war with, and so are the children of the House of Light, so we shouldn't burden them with the sins of their ancestors (or in our case... the near-immortal guardians that have slaughtered their way through fallen houses).
With the question of "Should we forgive this specific eliksni?" It becomes a personal choice, and at a personal level. For those who have lost families to that individual eliksni, they are well within their right to never forgive them. The same goes for the eliksni who have lost famikies to saint, or our guardian.
@@josh___something why should we forgive them? they have a history of murder and treason... well most of them. including Mithrax. Its not the sins of their ancestors we are burdening them with. Its their sins...
@@sawoszao Some of them. Just like there are people in the last city that has never held a gun towards the eliksni, there are eliksni who haven't held a gun to us.
Again, let the murderers like eramis and perhaps mithrax face the consequences of their sins. But, Eido and the other younger eliksni were only born into this war should be given a chance at peace.
Because if even an uneasy ceasefire is reached, that's still a countless amount of lives saved.
@@josh___something dude no... the way eliksni are structured its just not true. most of them are NOT civilians. giving a chance doesnt have to equal letting them in the city. the premise that somehow people who have been pirating killling and self admittedly distrust humans (well if I invaded someones home and ate their children Id also distrust those people eh?) etc. for hundreds of years cause 0 trouble in the city and its only humans (civilians at that) who cause trouble is laughable. while the basis for this narrative is cool (I alrdy mentioned earlier I actually like Eliksni) the way its told in game is naive, lacks any nuance and, for me, disappoints. I expected better, what I got is a balck and white caricature.
@@stacia114 except theres not a lot of difference yet. House light is estremely young house (aprox. 2 years) that mainly consists of ex members of other houses.
Most important question this season: "Skrank gang lore when?"
I just realised that the title of the book "Achilles Weaves a Cocoon" tells us the name of Namrask. Achilles. Or something similar to that in Eliksni because when her walks to the two guards outside to ask where Variks is, one nearly calls him "O Great Ahk-" I thought they were going to say Archon but it makes a lot of sense now.
best guess at the spelling would be Ahkillis, or Ahkiliis, since they double the i's for the long e sound.
They are fallen
My dum ass thought of Aksis for some reason 😂
Before I even watch this, I loved Achilles weaves a cocoon so much and kept coming back to read it each week
Imagine being some rando hiding out in a work camp with your family when they drop in your cell some Rambo looking dude who seems nice and friendly but when you ask him what skills he has (hoping you can escape with him) he replies with... Knitting
I love Namrask/Achilles
Had lots of fun making a guest apearance in the background gameplay. Love your vids!
I have no problem with allying with the cabal or the Eliskni. Both can be reasoned with albeit hard and both have been chased from their home systems and brought to Sol. We may have all gotten off on the wrong foot but that does not mean the path forward needs to be walked alone.
Agreed. I’d even be open to others if we could genuinely reason with them….
@@archmagetyler I personally don't think it would ever be possible to reason with the hive or be cooperative with them but I am more optimistic about vex.
I think we can't forgive the Eliksni and they can't forgive the guardians but I believe we can trust each other and work together.
@@skoalsniper006 In the lore I think it's stated that if they stop using the sword logic the worm eats them.
@@skoalsniper006 for the Vex we'd probably enough power, so that they'd need us to flourish in the future they predict.
The Hive is a no-no, as they seek to kill off the weak, if I got it right.
I want a Ghost to find Temporary and resurrect him as the first Eliksni Guardian.
Temporary isn't confirmed dead, just missing...
I think Eido's going to get Ghosted.
@@SymbioteMullet what makes you think eido will die?
@@smallen6872 she's always been known as the Child of Light... i don't really think that Misraaks ever properly explained why he calls her that.
Also, at the beginning of the season, during the first loredump in the Eliksni quarter, she makes comment on how differently Eliksni would use/treat their ghost compared human guardians, if they had one - i think that line is checkov's gun, because at season's end she'll get to show us that first hand what the difference is.
Also, Misraaks is too good a character to kill off, but giving the emotional gutpunch of him losing family, but then rising above his pain and not taking vengeance on Lakshmi (because of course it will be FWC), will be the thing that truly cements House Light as allies of the last city.
But that's just a theory.
A GAME THEORY!
But we'll see soon enough.
@@SymbioteMullet nooooo
@Nitro bungie gonna bung, my friend. A good story isn't always a nice story.
But, I'm just a dude on the interwebs - it's quite likely I'll be wrong.
I'd love the intro to be "Shut up, lore daddy is speaking now" xD
I appreciate the sentiment of "If youre willing to work with us then you deserve that chance of forgiveness."
Its alot better than xenophobic costco colored Lakshmi
and a lot fuckin better than House of Rain apologists
@@droneant7602 house of Devils
@@droneant7602
It was House Of Rain. Dusk was a more recent House that was conceived during the time of the Red War.
house devils are also likely eating people even up til recent destiny history (last few years), considering the devils lair strike
@@Just_some_random_name Yes, the eliksni ate humans at some point, in one of the weapons lore of this season (the one involved with the drifter) it is said that some fallen ate human corpses to survive, but at least this particular group never ate human child flesh.
As for the house of rain, it is clesr that those fallen ate adult and children corpses alike.
@@eduardovega7272 House Rain killed and ate the children-
When someone recognizes the wrong that they have done and seeks redemption for it, a chance must be given. If they never have an opportunity to change their path they will be forever condemned to repeat their own mistakes. That fate is worse for everyone.
Well said
You know its a good day when lore daddy uploads
I do not know any Guardian in their right mind that would deny the hatchlings a safe place to rest.
Misraaks has to be one of my favorite Eliksni characters
Hey we are going to just test a new exotic on them later on, why wait?
Uh me, cute little buggers needa stay out my bathroom. Just cause I keep my tiled floor warm doesnt mean they needa drink my sink water
Its chill if they hang out in the dryer tho, its broke
Gotta protect the smollen
@@xvx_k1r1t0_xvxkillme7 I'm with FWC, and I side with Our Lord and Savior Joker.
Bungie honestly put an incredible amount of work into this season and I’m very happy to see it.. they’ve fledged out one of my favorite seasonal stories in a very very long time
Achilles weaves a cocoon has been my favorite lorebook this season, something about it has been getting me excited every time I unlocked a page
@22:08 Props for reading as Variks, I love his delivery.
“Bad faith discussions don’t happen as much in modern day.” I’ll try to remember that every time I see an argument devolve into “you don’t agree with me, therefor you’re a(n) *insert immensely charged and exaggerated term here.*”
"Everybody who disagrees with me on even the most benign subject is a racist, biggoted Nazi"
Something like that?
@@RohanSpartin Eh, Nazi, Communist, the insults are interchangeable.
"To forgive but not forget, or forget but not forgive."
Misraaks desires the first that we should remember what has happened but to accept it, learn from it, and move into a future where it doesn't happen again.
Namrask believes that the later is all he deserves, that his past identity deserves to be forgotten because what he did cannot be forgiven.
Misraaks in his conversation with Namrask showed that in this circumstance, that to beat Lakshmi-2's scheme, and be accepted into the City and regain a life as a people in the Traveler's Light the Eliksni cannot try to sweep their past actions under the rug or downplay the terrors that both Eliksni and Humanity have inflicted upon each other.
Couldn't of said it better myself
Explained elegantly
I think the #1 thing that separates Namrask from other murderous conquerors of the past is that Namrask recognized the severity his crimes, and now is actively working to atone for them.
Is he tho, he’s ashamed but he’s more hiding from his crimes than atoning
@@MrVidman14 I mean, half of the people he'd go to for atonement would just as soon kill him as talk to him, and the other half wouldn't think twice before putting his head on a spike.
Can't say I blame him for trying to lay low right now.
Ah, some Cerberus gameplay. Nice!
Cerberus is one of my favorites, I spent the cash on some silver for the ornament when they updated the store this season
It’s an automatic shotgun that uses primary ammo. It slays in close combat.
Destiny's AA-12
Did they add an animation for it? I noticed that the PC taps the power source on the side
@@carna-9501 yeah the catalyst allows it to swap fire modes
For me the question of whether or not the Eliksni deserve forgiveness depends completely on whether the Eliksni want it or not. It's easy to forget that this isn't a one way street and the Eliksni are asking themselves the same question we are. Saint isn't the only Guardian who brutalized and slaughtered their people. I can't even hope to count the amount of them I've casually killed since starting the first Destiny game. Sometimes for no other reason than to test a shiny new exotic.
Point is, if they're willing to forgive US in the hopes that we might make the same effort then we probably should. If Eramis or Taniks were here I imagine neither of them would be interested in making peace with us but Mithrax, Eido, Namrask and the rest of House Light are trying to meet us halfway and all of this is far too important for us to not try a little harder ourselves.
Last time I was this early Oryx was still Aurash
I could hear you die a little bit with that sigh after saying “lore daddy”
Is it funny that I just imagine Randall the Vandal making a come back?
If Randal became a guardian he would truly be undying.
Namrask, Uldren/Crow…. These are two antagonist’s who are trying to right their wrongs… I love it. We need more characters like these
This is such a great lore book, and I appreciate you pointing out its complexities. There is a lot here that mirrors life in a way that I can use to evaluate it in a better way mentally, and this is really the best part of stories is their ability to help us through real issues in life. Don't normally post but thanks for all the lore, been watching for quite a while and always great content!
Byf could swap out this philosophy to irl situations and be a great mediator or judge. I’m sure this is a common philosophy of approaching an argument he is extremely talented at explaining how to properly access conflict.
Lore Daddy helping make all of us better people through Destiny lore ❤️
Here's a little food for thought for those still debating whether or not to forgive the Eliksni while watching this video. Saint 14 said a specific line during this season that we should all think about in addition to the information here in Byf's video. The line goes as follows:
"I cannot forgive the Old Houses for what they've done to us but....these are not the Old Houses"
I really love this lore book, it was a very interesting perspective on the Eliksni on their society and history.
When Namrask mentioned the "thing with the staff", I thought he was talking about a 100 mobility arcstaff Hunter with stompees cranking 90s on his brothers and sisters
The whole season just makes me think of how the Fallen, Eliksni, and Humanity could've had their roles so easily switched. For us we could've been the ones who were abandoned by the traveler and hunted it down to their home just as they had done here. Both held golden ages and so do both now stand on the brink of total annihilation from a number of various forces, be it the Hive, Vex, Cabal to even those of their own kind. The two working together is of course a rough transition from what either side are used to, especially with how long the conflict between multiple houses of Eliksni have raged against mankind. Raids, slaughters, full scale wars even, and in response to such did humanity return the favor in kind. There's been enough bloodshed on either or to make forgiveness near impossible. Yet seeing the slow connection between Saint and Mythrax over the season had me remember about the Sangheli/Elites and Humanity from Halo, yes old ass and constant reference I know, but the resemblance is just so painfully similar I can't help but think of this line at the end of Halo 3. "I can't forgive your people for what you did. But I thank you, for sticking with him to the end." The idea of finding a middle ground within the midst of conflict can show many similarities for once opposing sides, even more against a common threat. Just as Humanity and the Elites realized their real enemy were the Prophets and the Flood, so to do the Fallen and Humanity see the Vex and Hive. We can't forgive them, but we can at least stand side by side and fight for something brighter.
Fate had us meet as foes, but this Ring (or orb in this case) will make us brothers.
impossible, fallen tech is way superior and tehre would be fallen guardians, they would clap our ass like oryx did to that alien race
I would like to believe our leadership wouldn't start a genocide against innocent people because of jealousy.
This is simply amazing. If there were full on chapter books about the lore, I’d happily sit there and listen to you go over it.
Have you watched his video about the hive, the origins and how they came to be so powerful? Thats a good listen.
"What is better: to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
I will allways have more respect for someone who started out evil, made a heel turn and seeks redemption. Also there are certain actions or efforts that said person can take that will completely redeem that person, no matter what was done in the past.
Except that if what they say is true then they started good and choose to be evil because of jealousy.
@@coatl4778 But turning from evil is still a virtue no? Often taking the path of evil leads to riches and power (Namraks was a powerful Eliksni because of it), tasting power and renouncing it for the sake of good still takes great strength
The problem I have with this question is that it implies, at the very least, that one could be born good, *or evil.
*=edit
Hmm indeed a Dovah by my own words
My in game player and I deep down have forgiven pieces of the Eliksni (House Light), and cant be mad at young Eliskni who dont know of the past struggles. But we are just one person/player, its not totally our desicion and will come down to everyones individual thoughts and feelings.
If we can forgive Uldren(Crow) then we can forgive the Eliksni. Particularly the younger ones because they are just like Crow. No memory of what their people or our people have done to each other.
A clean slate
Crow had to die to earn his forgiveness...
Guardians die many deaths, Eliksni can't.
I remember reading through this lorebook as I got all the parts and I was just hooked on it.
I'm glad this is getting the Byf treatment
He did hideous things to both human and Eliksni and needs to pay, but violence is not the answer, I think Ada-1 would like a helping hand, or four
Absolutely
I had to pause this at 7:12 because for the prior 20 seconds, Byf just adequately explained how to have a civil discussion with differing views. I’m shook at how simply he put it.
It is the mindless, or the mind that lives in malice, selfishness, and an ill will that won't be broken that does not deserve chances at redemption. Actions of the past often influence what we become in the future. As this I have never seen any of the species as a whole as irredeemable, as there is nuance and variance in all things - and life is too short to simply cut off the opportunity to grow goodness.
This is a personal policy that was forged in time, though mistakes and it is tempered in lessons hard won and through scars that will live with me. In the sake of this Namrask - he walks on a knife's edge and know it. He wishes to follow the path of redemption, but if he were to become that evil again, we'd end him for the threat he would become. That said - he has willingly chosen that path in earnest and ours is not to deny it to him, but to be sure he pays for his crime by making his life one of value. He cannot simply claim an epiphany and live in peace. A new day may dawn upon him, but as he knows too well, it's a day of work.
But that's him, one person, one being. Judged weighed and measured by their individualism and course of life. They have made an earnest effort to change their course and lives in humbleness and humility - though his lessons are of great value as he has learned his folly through experience. It's even more valuable to keep him as he may be able to prevent others from following along the same foolish path he walked.
However one person cannot speak for a race, for a people, in its entirety - and I will not make a sweeping judgement as such. (Though my Sunshot burns in large swaths, I do not shoot without purpose). It is those who have given up their identity, handed it over to malice and hate and ideas that harm others who I feel should burn. Perhaps not lose their life in the fire - but remembering that such ideas are alike to flame and burn all when not given due respect - often has to be instilled with pain. To those who ignore such warnings, naught can be done but light their pyres with purpose.
Holy shit this was a good one, I was so immersed in the story I felt like I was listening to an audiobook, Byf did an amazing job with the voices and narration.
Been waiting for this lorebook.
The way I see it they’ve killed plenty of us, and we’ve killed plenty of them. They’re just as worthy of peace as we are, as long as they’re willing to reach for it.
i wont be happy until i hear an eliksnii hum "hope for the future"
Having just recently stumbled upon this particular thread of lore with Namrask's encounter with Lakshmi in the Last City, this has been such a lovely reintroduction to the story. Wonderful as always, Byf.
Awesome content as always lore daddy
I haven’t even listened to the video yet but I love this it’s such a wonderful thing to just teach people, this is how games can impact how we treat those outside the game.
imagine if the Speaker was still alive
Do we know what happened to his ghost? Any chance for a resurrection?
@@Kaiser8361N Speaker didn't have a ghost as far as I know. He attracted a lot of ghosts to gather round, but didn't actually have one
The speaker is mortal. As far as I know, speakers are normal humans that have dreams from the Traveller and can listen to what it says. Our speaker needs a mask to amplify the frequency of the Traveller to receive the dreams.
what if the darkness communes to us with a dark form of the speaker. black and red robes and all
@@georgemyles8784 Cool idea, but I think it would clash with the Darkness' vibes. Its whole thing is that only one can survive which is why it talked to us as our character in shadowkeep, emphasizing that singular survivor.
I really appreciate the take on a "Good Faith Argument". It's very rare for me to notice a political, theological, economic or psychological discussion that isn't heavily tainted by ulterior motives.
4:30 - I'm pretty sure he escaped, no? There's an exo that chases after him but it isn't explicitly stated that they murdered him.
From my understanding, that was a different Eliksni that the exo was chasing, and they had already killed the one from the ramen store and were cleaning up its body.
There's a reference in the lore later when a citizen of the tower finds their family cleaning up the implied remains of the murder, including the vanguard lanyard.
Is sad :(
That’s the same lore tab that says they were still chasing him.
@@newabba1 I thought that was not the scene of a murder but of torture. But idk tbh.
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 I absolutely could be wrong, it just seemed to fit the narrative of the outraged crowd emotionally responding to the Eliksni incorrectly using the words he heard from Amanda Holiday. I imagine the crowd killing him in a rage more understandable than continuing to torture him after capture.
In my mind the people are not 'pure' evil, more in a mob state of fear
"Forgive your enemies but never forget their names"
2:19 lore daddy single-handedly takes on the pyramid ships and shoots them out of orbit
This is like how in Season of the Hunt, where even though we may not forgive Uldren for his actions, we can make some amends with Crow and befriend them.
We will never forgive the Fallen, but we can try and make friendships with Mithrax and House Light
Anyone who openly forgives the fallen without any hesitation is purely blind but a chance should be allowed we are about to fight the god of cunning and deceit tho and to not see reason in the fact that Lakshmi is talking about seeing betrayal and lies in the city futures isn’t a coincidence she clearly has a deeper hatred towards the fallen but I don’t believe she is totally wrong
The only reason people are giving blind forgiveness to Eliksni is because of the hatchlings.
No she is not wrong, i am planning to betray the traveler for some doritoes asap
One of my favorite lore entries in all of destiny honestly
With the completion of this first episode, my answer has not changed when it comes to the Eliksni. They have done horrible things, killed so many innocents, have gutted themselves and attempted to take the Traveler, almost destroyed the Last City but to me... they were Fallen, a different group, a different race entirely. Namrask, who was once a powerful warlord who aided in the shaping of the Post-Whirlwind Society had done many things that can be and are considered unforgivable but he is on the path to become Eliksni once more. What was done is done, holding onto anger and hatred for the past will do nothing more than continue the desire for revenge and death. Is he worthy of forgiveness? I do believe so but only so long as he continues along this path, continues on with trying to change and undo what he has done so that the people may survive again. He could aid the House of Light to avoid the pitfalls in which he helped create for their people that made them into the Fallen, a cautionary tale in the flesh, his guilt and suffering will not be enough to satisfy everyone but Namrask is making a sincere effort to change. Fact is, only he knows what was done at his own orders, how many people he has killed, the weight of everything he had done being replayed in his own mind for as long as he lives and given that the Eliksni seem to be able to live indefinitely... that is true punishment.
Despite the rage and anger at the atrocities he had done, death would only be a mercy to Namrask because even if forgiven, he will never forget what he has done or the blood that stains his hands and he will never feel better about it because he will never be able to forgive himself for all the horrors committed. And that would likely go for all Eliksni warriors who fought and killed including Mithrax, it was an act of kindness that made him turn against the current ideals of the Fallen, leading to the formation of the House of Light. A choice to be better but it will never be enough in his own mind, to make up for the past, he like Namrask regrets the actions of the past.
So, can I personally forgive the Eliksni? Yes but only them. The Fallen, unfortunately, have not repented yet and there is much that has to be done before they finally come to the Light.
The way I see it, if someone is willing to fight (literally or metaphorically) for the sake of everyone, then they aren't an enemy unless they show otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty as well. The old adage about not punishing the son for the crimes of the father also comes to mind.
House Light laid down their arms and promised not too harm humanity, but instead to do everything in their help save both themselves and us.
Caiatl eventually agreed to a ceasefire and a temporary alliance. One of her underlings (the Psion, Ixel) stepped out of line and tried to assassinate Zavala to be a hero for their race. Caiatl with no hesitation killed one of the Psion's accomplices to protect Zavala before demanding the traitor be caught and brought to her (for what can be assumed to be a similar fate).
I wouldn't be opposed to allying with a defective/rogue Vex mind or even a runaway Acolyte.
But the second one of our new allies turns, I won't hesitate to put them down. For example, as much as I like Crow, if he ever went through a regression arc and pulled a gun on us or a member of the Vanguard, I will have one Golden Gun shot taking his head off, one for Glint, and the third for anyone who tries to stop me.
Forgive, but don't forget, because if they can't break the cycle, you'll have to.
Him ranting while I have flashbacks of playing beyond light for the first time after release with the music in the background
Not all Eliksni should be forgiven
Some have truly Fallen
All Fallen are Eliksni, But not all Eliksni are Fallen
I really think that by the end of this season we're gonna have our first Eliksni guardian and that's what is gonna bring humanity and House Light together
That WOULD be interesting. The only catch is the memory loss new guardians suffer. If such a thing happened to Mithrax, it would be a bittersweet fate; gaining power but forgetting his skills and his loved ones. Now if such a thing happened to Namrask, THAT would be both interesting AND practical. Poetic, even.
“Why would she send her mate and children to another star?” Wait so arthrys is still alive...?
To keep them safe from what she’s doing I suppose or maybe she felt people (the guardians and other eliksni” may try to retaliate. And yea I guess so.
@@ATitanofWords I was quoting variks
This was the first lore book that I went online to read it through before I got the lore books ingame, loved the story
I can't remember who said this and where, but us guardians aren't destroyers, we are GUARDIANS. We protect the light and all those who may embrace it, we protect the last city and those that live within it's walls. We have no right to send a desperate species into extinction, for simply trying to survive.
If it comes at the cost of our species, your damn right we have the right to genocide them.
@@RohanSpartin fight them back, into submission, perhaps. Not extinction, not until the very worst of circumstances. Again, they are simply trying to survive, as we are. If Humanity were in the same position as the Eliksni, pursuing a god that abandoned us, we would act out in the very same way.
It was Amanda in a battleground
@@ruzemekam359 fun fact.literally What happens in the Dark future timeline: Humanity tracks the Traveller Fallen-style and tries to Kick It into submission like Ghaul did.
In times of neccesity and desperation, morals are worthless, and one does not usually act better Than the Monsters they fought against
Phylaks: You will always be a monster
Namrask: I know, but I'll will be your monster no longer
Why do we need to forgive elikni that haven't harmed us?
My answer is a compromise of mercy and practicality. Mercy to the Eliksni willing to work with us and the practicality that we do need allies and the time for senseless slaughter must end.
Does anyone know why he calls it the No-Quite-Last City? 21:30
London? It fell.
I think its because of all of the human city remains the fallen have come across. While they're not currently inhabited they are still cities that still stand unlike those on Riis
@@sgtroach2122 aw rip
This lore book hit HARD
Imo, FinnMcCool has it spot on. Modern day Eliksni should be no more accountable for the sins of their ancestors than IRL where there are preposterous concepts such as collective white guilt for acts carried out 100s of years ago. As Misraaks said, “we can only promise to do better”
Rick Kackis: (has long intros)
Destiny Community: wow this guys a straight up meme
Byf: (has long intros but with a smooth British voice)
Destiny Community: yes. I like this.
Byf is doing a lore reading that's why everyone is cool with it, Khakis is literally stretching his videos out for ads and clicks 😂
29:30 I don't know why it never occurred to me that I could use boss stomp to my advantage.
Thanks for the video Byf, this is one of my favorite stories this season.
"I cannot be bargained with, I cannot be reasoned with, I am a robot I run on blood" - Lakshmi-2, probably
We're all robots who run on blood when you think about it. And I'm fine with a little genocide.
Namrask’s story would actually make an amazing tv series. He seems like a really compelling protagonist.
Imagine it using Bungie's CGI cinematic tech. Oooo, lawdy...
Reading the lore tab on Imperial Needle, I found a Guardian's perspective on both the Cabal and the Fallen.
Specifically on the Fallen, the guardian states that while attacking a fallen outpost, he came across a Fallen Dreg that ran straight at him, praying to the Traveler to spare it through the Guardian. It's not known if it survived the guardian though.
Not likely. The guradian is in a hostile environment, what do you reckon is most likely to happen if a fallen starts running at them.
The forgiveness of the Elkinsi very much parallels real life questions. For example in America many Native Americans struggle with the idea of forgiving the Europeans for their conquest. Africans often struggle to forgive Europeans for slavery, and Parts of Eastern Europe still refuse to give Germany and Russia forgiveness for their mass killings and crimes. It’s a complicated argument which reminds us of real life.
Perhaps Eramis knew that the journey taken to safety by Athrys and their hatchlings was a one-way trip...
Those that have done no wrong against humanity should not be fired upon like the rest of their kind. We cannot judge the many by the few (well, I guess in this case the many are the enemies...)
As for those who have done wrong and willingly want to repent and change, they should be given the chance to.
Violence is a vicious cycle. It's time to break it.
I wouldn't forgive and would hunt him down. He murdered countless of innocents just because he was angry that the Traveler came to us.
One of my issues with how bungie has shown us Lakshmi is that they want us to view her as basically evil. In my opinion she is a victim of circumstance. Until recently the fallen as a whole have waged a holy war with the goal of exterminating humanity to regain their god. It is completely natural for her to be skeptical or afraid of House Light’s intentions. Her seeing a potential future doesn’t help either.
My man out here dropping parables
"I like how the Destiny is just a retelling of the Siege of Troy with the Tower/Last City Being Troy."
"My name is Lore Daddy here" threw me off for a beat.
Sometimes I wonder what Mithrax would look like as an archon I think it'd be awesome but I do also like that his regular captain size and appearance is because of his kind and generous nature and that he only takes as much ether as he needs
I'm more curious how a relationship with friendly hive would go. "Hey big scary Hive Knight!....umm you dropped your worm/larva thing"
The video makes a good point, and it's true, forgiveness is a difficult proposition. However, it is important to keep in mind that the city has inflicted suffering upon the Eliksni as well. the scale is unimportant at this point, a full accounting would be impossible. Pain and anger are things that fade, but only with a great deal of time. the only path forward, the only way out of the current scenario, is to move on. the misdeeds and atrocities of teh past are fixed, nothing done now can affect them. But we do possess the capacity to prevent further misdeeds from occurring.
Pehaps don't forgive, but accept the Eliksni. accept that there are those among them who have seen this better path, understand that their perspective on this is not so different from our own. Do not forget the past, but do not let it define the now either.
And perhaps we could apply this in our own reality.
Damn, well said sir.
13:56 at first I thought it was referring to an arcstrider hunter but fikrul also fits the bill
Happy 900K subscribers Byf