As a former USAF pilot, I can attest to the fact that if you have a good PC and VR headset, you will experience DCS in a way that is much much closer to real life than what you get using a head tracker with a 2D screen. I just bought the HP Reverb G2 a few days ago, and the first time I tried it in DCS (with the F/A-18), I was blown away with how real everything was and how much it felt like was back in a real cockpit again. Truly amazing technology that I am sure will continue to get better in time. Definitely the way to go if you are on the fence as to which one to choose...
@@TacticalPascale I don't know but I've been told, navy wings are made of gold. Just poking fun to a (former) colleague, see? It's nothing serious 😉 Besides I am a rotor head...what would I know?
Yesterday I bought HP reverb which is 4k resolution. Its like two different games. VR blew me away. Its like a dream. The feeling of size of an aircraft is so good! Messerschmitt felt so huge in VR when compared to monitor. Like real size plane. VR is phenomenal!
@ Luke Fiedorek I really hated the limited fov and sweet spot. The feeling was awesome I agree, but way too many downsides for me. I prefer headtracking.
I’m also brand new to VR... I preordered a G2 when I heard FS2020 was getting VR. Having recent found DCS I was completely floored the first time I jumped into the Huey in VR in DCS. Immediately I was sold. There is no comparison, VR Is the only way to fly!
Once I had VR I never wanted to fly DCS without ever again. It's just that much better with than without. For me 3D is somewhat like flying the jet instead of watching the jet fly. Also I find the community quite creative in solving problems you get when using VR (for example not writing down JTAC coords on a piece of paper). I don't want to miss it. And it has become a VR only experience for me, because it is just that much better for me!
I found dogfighting was actually easier in VR. In a scissors fight (yep, I’m defensive cause I’m dumb) I would always lose track of the enemy in head tracking. My first vr dogfight ended up in scissors again (did I mention I’m really dumb), but I never lost track even when I had to make sure there wasn’t a hill in front of me or something. My neck remembered exactly where to look again - having to physically look around gave me much more insight as to where he was in relation to my a/c. From that first fight I was hooked. I was never that much in control of the fight before when in that very bad position.
VR improves your dog fighting abilities because your situational awareness is trained to the max, if someone is out turning me, I will lose sight of them but I can guess where he will be much better than with trackir. That said, with trackir I have to keep watching him. In VR I also know more or less exactly when things are going to happen due to having depth perception and "feeling" the speed of things, I know for example when my foe will hit the ground even before he does and know what he will have to do to avoid it and set myself up for that. Overall its a different skill set that you train and tbh having both systems gives you the best of both worlds. You dont have "cheats" (crazy zoom + halloween neck) in VR though, which is sad and puts you at a disadvantage.
I agree with you. I was hopeless at dogfighting with TrackIR unless I had labels on. It took me a couple of days, but in VR I can do it better even with labels off.
Can you explain the labels comment please. My computer isn't good enough for VR (Nvidia 2060 GPU), and head swiveling to find someone use a hat switch on my F16 grip is not easy, especially if I click in the wrong direction and can't get back to center fast enough.@@IcthioVelocipede
@@What_If_We_Tried In DCS and many other air combat sims, there's an option to turn on 'labels' e.g. text descriptions of other planes that will be printed near them on the screen. Sometimes they vary depending on distance (e.g. just a dot when far away, a dot + a distance, and then dot + distance + plane type when really close). It's much easier to see these than a tiny black dot.
I started flying in XPlane, Then jumped to DCS, Right there after went with the Rist S VR, Absolutely awesomeness, Then the neck issues, Old injury presenting from the weight of the VR Gear, So now I'm going with the Track IR, to spend time really learning. Then back to VR once I can accomplish all the multi-tasking. Thanks for sharing,
Been playing in VR for about a year and a half. Honestly for flight sims for me it was a huge game changer. All your points stand, but for me in dogfighting it's way better then track ir ever was. The 1:1 ratio of head movement to in-game movement, and proper size and distance of objects in relation to my position makes it amazing. Turning your plane and then looking back to where the bandit should be and I don't overshoot the spot or have to wiggle around. I look and what I expect to see I see... Trying to dogfight with poor frames or micro stutter is a bit nauseating, though...
I am looking to get into DCS world. I have VR setup (Vive Cosmos) and you touched on the fear factor. I have felt that in MSFS 2020 flying into a remote runway in the dark with just instruments in VR does cause that feeling. My wife loves to come in while I have VR set on and grab my shoulders.....real fear lol. Nice video
Even with all its flaws, it's VR for me everytime. I recently upgraded my whole rig (one of the many benefits of chosing to never get married or have kids) from a mid range system with an Oculus Rift s, to a high end machine with a HP G2 Reverb headset, and in 50 years on this earth it's by far and away the best gaming experience I've ever had. Yes it can be a bit of a faff not being able to take notes and having to pick up a controller to flip switches in the cockpit, but you're doing just that, flipping switches that have a real function in a very lifelike cockpit. The fov is a big issue in a dogfight, but this can be helped with a swivel chair so you dont need to crank your neck so much, but such minor draw backs are worth it for the immersion. I have around 500 hours of private pilot time in a few different light aircraft, and VR is easily the most comparable to flying a real aircraft. The flight models in DCS are worryingly realistic at times, and the skills I acquired flying PPL are absolutely transferable. The 3D sound quality and sense of immersion have been so intense at times, that I've had to spend 5 or 10 minutes just sitting in the now open and quiet cockpit of my A-10C after a frantic mission, just listening to the gyros spooling down and the breeze blowing through the dark cockpit whilst I calm down. All we need now is some way to simulate gravity and external forces to give us the seat of the pants feeling you get from a real aircraft, and we're there 👍👍
If you have the disposable income you can get a 6dof motion platform for 3800 bucks from Dof reality, however you do have to put away your swivel chair and strain your neck in dogfights not to mention it takes up space. While it isn't all that much room, it doesn't exactly look decorative.
Thanks, great summary! One advantage of VR is that it might improve visibility, because two eyes combined can look past things like window frames that are several centimeters wide. You lose depth perception in that area, since only one eye can see the object at a time, but it's a lot better than not seeing anything.
Lol. I make sure I lock the doors before VR flying. I worry about finishing a successful sortie to find that everything has been stolen from around me!
I have both and I can say that for everyday use head tracking is way better. But for flying helicopters vr makes it sooo much easier to hover and land accurately.
In VR for me it's exceedingly easy to keep track of where I'm actually looking, as in how far I'm off the plane's centerline. Also of course the 3d impression itself helps with AAR and difficult heli landings etc. Of course the drawbacks are still there - for me,playing with VR is quite hard in the summer months,not just due to unpleasantness, but mostly condensation - I think a cockpit fan would help with that though.
I love VR and the immersion it gives compares to headtracking but it kind of sad that I can't see the fancy control peripherals that I bought for this sim.
lol - the vampire ref is too real! -*also the store one as well... great vid - have my trackir coming in tomorrow and so excited - im new to DCS and a warbird pilot as well as new member of the discord - ty for sharing!
I use both. I started out in dcs with vr, but I find myself using track ir more. Sometimes I just dont feel like putting on the headet and would rather just sit back and enjoy flying while still being aware of my surroundings. Dog fighting is also much better with track ir. These days I use track ir when learning something new and dogfighting and will use vr just for fun every now and then. Vr does help with certain things. Having depth perception really helps out with landing, especially on carriers, and refueling. Other than that 2d is just fine.
I just started flying DCS with my Reverb G6v2 combined for the first time with a 3080ti card. Wow, a new level of immersion - unmatched by head/eye tracking sets, I must say. Also, the improvement of my flying due to the added level of perspective/depth of field in VR is now significant, almost a true game changer. Just couldn't get this level of performance in VR up to now. Still, there will continue to be a challenge in referring to resources outside the goggles while flying - always a problem to this point for me. I also wanted to say, had a chance to go back and take another look at this video again today for the first time in over a year, and gotta say - TP never misses on providing a great blend of information, insight, and hilarity in these videos. Even months or years later they're brilliant!
Including lighthouse gear setup is like talking that plugging your GPU into the mainboard and connecting display cables is required to play a game. This is a thing that you go over once, and forget they're there. It is also required for trackir (or any clone) that you plug in the cams, position on tv etc. Including this seems silly. As for snacking and drinking I usually lift my headset to do it. Headsets also often provide a pass-through mode. As for hardware required to run DCS (in particular, because DCS is horribly unoptimised) - I was able to play on 1080 non-ti 8GB on medium settings, with lower cards I'd advise using shader mods from the forums. But saying VR needs some nasa supercomputer is false, as you can actually run VR with a 970 or 980 depending on platform of choice. But you do lose some fidelity unless you're running the latest and greatest. IMHO the immersion difference is rewarding enough, YMMV. All in all I get the feeling this is kinda biased towards trackir, but maybe I'm wrong, and I used both systems. Don't want to fly DCS "flat" anymore.
To run it on "good" settings you do need a good setup. You cannot run a 970 on a multiplayer server and expect to have a playable performance (my last card was a 970 and I tried). Snacks and drinks: let me clarify, for glasses wearers you can't just lift the headset up, unless you want the glasses pressed into your forehead, hence the waterboarding.
@@TacticalPascale Yeah I tried to clarify that for VR in general you don't need to have a nasa supercomputer. For DCS in particular, you do and it still sucks. I have an i7-9700k, RTX 3080, 32GB RAM and I still get 30fps in multiplayer on poorly written missions, and 40-60 fps on free flight in Caucasus and the Gulf). That's where the shaders come in handy. But even with them, the 970 is a minimum. Also - most people play singleplayer according to ED
@@TacticalPascale Yea, but you can go with old stock like a 1080 or vega 64 and get decent performance. its what I run and you can reasonably build a rig with those for about 600 bucks. Mind you its a playable experience, not the best experience. The vr headset you use also makes a big difference since running an index in 120 hz mode means that you are shooting for 60 fps as opposed to 90 fps with reprojection. And comfort also depends on the headset so its kind of a tossup in many cases. Also some people find low fps much more playable than others. Having started my VR experience with a gtx 970m, I have gotten use to running at 15-20 fps and consider 30 fps to be very much playable while other people vomit at the thought of it. So upgrading my system to something that can run everything at 60 fps made everything look smooth as butter.
55 inch 4k tv track IR user here, have been playing combat flight sims since 1995, didn't get to upgrade to head tracking until 2014 or so. I've used vr as well. Extremely large tvs combined with proper track ir curves are just better for me. Not being able to read the cockpit labels is an absolute no go. Never mind my slew of accessories like my throttle quad, or cougar mfds. Groping around randomly in the dark is a 2am in the morning bedtime activity, not one I want to be doing with a chunk of plastic over my eyes looking around in a virtual cockpit with the same visual fidelity I'd have of being in one with my glasses smudged. On the topic of interacting with things in dcs though, something I recently tried this last year was a IR touchscreen bezel. You can install it on the, well, bezel of your tv and it offers multiple touchpoints (mine can do 10 touchpoints at once) using a system not all that different from track ir with ir sensors and lights along the inside edges looking at each other. It determines which mouse click you do by holding your finger over the click point, so a quick touch is a left and a held touch is a right click. You can also use it with scroll wheel items by clicking and dragging up or down rapidly. If you are, for whatever reason, using a flat tv I think I can honestly say don't try it. It would be stellar if all dcs modules had unified switch behavior, but they don't. Using something like ufcps is stellar, but god FORBID you want to do something like start up the harrier, where each and every switch has entirely different logic as to which kind of mouse click is forward/back/left/right. Sadly, they don't. So it can be really very hit or miss. Flip side, they're not very expensive. I think my 55 inch was only 100$. So if you got a little chunk to blow, your monitor is already within reach, who knows, maybe you'll get a kick out of it.
I already have powerful machine and a VR, also a hotas. I'm trying to get into DCS. I'm very comfortable with VR, it's a truly amazing experience. I tried the trackir webcam solution but it doesn't feel the same once you get used to VR.
Interesting, i find dogfighting in VR to be easier, because of the depth perception and spatial awareness. Yes, your neck will hurt and it is more tiring (good luck spending more then 2 hours on a dogfighting server), but being able to judge distance and which side a bandit is going to pop out of after sinking bellow the plane fuselage or canopy rail is by far more important IMO
+1. Totally agree. Maybe my setup wasn't right, but in TrackIR it was easy to become disorientated. In VR I find it much easier to keep the bandit in sight.
4K flat monitor (8,3mp) with around 60fps= VR on Quest 2 ( 7,5mp) at 72fps...Almost the same graphical power needed, except that your 2 eyes can see both 8,3mp on a flat screen and in VR, your eyes can only see 3,75mp each...So yes, you loose some accuracy in VR...compared to a flat screen. High or cold aspect , hard to say in VR
@@SETHalpine i'd usually take that loss of accuracy over the gain in spatial awareness. At least for BFM. For ground strikes though..... i understand the flat screen crowd.
Bought into DCS hardcore with the VR headset and a few modules of varying levels such as the F-14, 15, and 16, and am still having trouble getting a dang aircraft off the ground let alone try to land one because I'm having to pull the headset up constantly to figure out how to coldstart reference a landing video, or twisting to find some button somewhere and having to really squint to read some labels despite the game textures being on a high quality. Overall I would prefer to do VR entirely, but I think for learning the software and navigating the principles, the situational awareness afforded from using track IR may have been the route I should have gone first, then migrated over to VR once I learned how to actually takeoff, land, and navigate the avionics of a module. Open to feedback if there is any, but my two cents. Thanks for the video!
I use both. Improvised head tracking (Samsung phone camera + openTrack) for learning/practice and VR for flying actual missions. When learning a new module, often need to refer to the manual or use keyboard controls for certain things, which is a bit tricky in VR before the muscle memory for that module develops.
As a new player using VR I totally agree about things like keybinds, charts, freq etc. Getting enough keybinds on the Hotas, and were you can remember them, is also a challenge. I tried a homemade head tracker (Playstation camera and head mounted LED) but I struggled with the setup. I was using a ultrawide monitor and I couldn't get a good profile, especially up / down. A huge downside, as you said, was the setup cost of VR. I was getting playable FPS when I got my VR (Reverb G2) in January, but by March I'd dropped £3k + upgrading my PC.
While back i went for the VR first time. Mixed feelings. Yeah the feeling of being there etc is very cool, but was very dissapointed with the FOV. Dogfighting is kind of pain in the ass, i really hate to check six with reduced FOV (compared to real life) on an office chair. For Scenery flights i think the gfx aren't good enough. Also hate how every little stutter of fps drop etc is super annoying, even the tiniest ones you hardly notice on monitor. And how Flight Sims tend to require gfx tweaking rather than pulling everything on ultra and go. That said VR is too good to be disregarded totally, but i won't sell my monitor nor trackir just yet. Usually the VR wow factor fades and you just want easy relaxing and comfy flying solution, and sometimes you want VR....
I have Rift S and more recently Quest 2. I have an i9, 2070s and 64gb. While the immersion is amazing in VR there’s always something that goes wrong/needs tweaking - every time. I have spent more time tweaking settings and trying to remove jitters and shiny graphics than flying in DCS and MSFS. Guardian and tracking also can be a problem if the lighting is weak. Also the cockpit buttons and screens are a lot harder to see in VR too. The audio isn’t as immersive without using my gaming headphones - and if you wear glasses like me.... it’s also a pain. I love VR. I’ve invested heavily but I honestly believe VR optimisation in 2d designed games just isn’t there yet. For native VR games it’s unreal. And for a casual pleasure flight it’s definitely worth it. But for competitive flight, or when you just want to “switch on and fly” honestly, VR is just a pain in the ass most of the time. As a dad with a day job and limited hours to play, I’m fed up with needing additional hours and software (oculus tray tool) to keep tweaking VR every time I try a new module or there’s a VR/game update etc. I simply want to fly smoothly and have fun and make use of my headphones and 4K monitor too. For that reason, and even after paying £000’s on my setup, I am not using VR right now to fly and have ordered TrackIR. It’s just not there yet imo. Hope that helps someone out there ✌🏼
As someone who is very interested but has not even touched the game yet, I would assume the people with TrackIR will really have an edge when it comes to dogfighting. As he mention in the video, superior visual quality and no head turning to instantly watch your back, leading to less fatigue and discomfort. If you think about, in a dogfight, that ability alone is almost like cheating.
@@TheSunIsMyDestroyer I agree. I’m just buzzing about in an F18 with TrackIR right now after a week on VR and the graphical quality and ease of head movement is amazing. Not to mention I can actually use my Warthog Hotas because I can see the buttons and switches lol
I’ve used track it for years and still do when I’m not feeling VRish. Now one thing about immersion, I’ll be fangs out in a DCS dogfight, totally forgetting the real world, then my dogs run in the room, jump on the arm of the chair and scare the living sh@t outta me. Now that’s immersion.
I read your blog and found out you were a GCI and intercepted a Russian aircraft with a Typhoon, that's really cool! Thanks for the guide, it was an enjoyable watch. o7
07:12 Spot on mate... Flying a Huey (or any helo) in VR is just something else and you'll never go back once you try it! In fact I would still prefer to sacrifice the graphics for the immersion every day even in dog fights :D
I got a Rift S to use with DCS last year. I would agree that the immersion is amazing. But... I just couldn't get over the graphical side of it. The 'blocky' pixelated nature of it just pulled me right out. I seem to be one of the few who find it an issue, though, so maybe it's just a personal thing! Ended up selling it after a month. I'd say if you purely want immersion, then VR. If you want comfort, etc and crisp clear graphics then stick with tracking until the VR companies can increase the pixels on their headsets (for a reasonable price! This may take another 5 years or more...)
"Getting licked by your dog while immersively engaged with your VR goggles on." bahahaha. Hasn't happened to me yet thank goodness and I hope it never does. I'd go through the roof!
If you like to build a physical cockpit -> Headtracking. If you like immersion and have a pc with good specs -> VR An advantage of headtracking is that you can do it with a phone using opentrack and FreePIE IMU. It uses the phone's gyros and magnetometer, so no image tracking is required. It works pretty well.
As a pilot in real life, I've found the VR Headset is by far the most immersive. However, not seeing the keyboard is the drawback of the setup despite HOTAS, because there are still commands that need keyboard input.
I mean, if you spend more time on the PC you dont need to see the keyboard anymore, I've spent more than 13 years daily at the PC now so I can already write very long texts without seeing my keyboard by a tiny bit, all I need to initially know is where the W is at
Two years ago I was all against VR, but look at me now gliding through in Quest 2 and thinking upgrading to Pro. 2.8 made VR much better, and I also upgraded PC a lot. There is one more thing about VR I didn't really realized until the last year: VR is way more compact thing to travel with. I had to leave my home behind (you may imagine why), and I only have small 17 inch portable monitor with me. Quest 2 packs in a small case I can throw in the duffle and travel very easy. No way I could do the same with my old 32 inch monitor.
I used track ir and considering how much I invested in physical consoles for my cockpit, it would be very difficult to use in VR unless you memorize exactly where every button is. VR is nice if you only intend to use your mouse to input data in your cockpit. Overall, I'm loving trackir.
@@prancer1803 Can you use the controllers in VR and a physical HOTAS at the same time? If so, and you take your hand off of the HOTAS to push a button, is it difficult to bring your hand back onto the HOTAS, or do you wind up reaching all over the place until you actually put your hand back on it? Is that an issue that muscle memory eventually will alleviate? I suppose that would still be an issue if you used a mouse like Slyder Ace suggested.
I want to hear the argument from the standpoint of 'real' hotas and controls vs. clickable cockpits. Edit: to clarify, I love the immersion of VR, but I also want to be able to look down and flip physical switches without having to replicate a 1:1 accurate simpit. From a cost standpoint, I can see a good graphics card/VR headset being a similar investment as building out a simpit with a WinWing or Virpil Hotas/control panel and TrackIR.
Been using Trackir for 10 years. Its great but needs effort on your part to configure it properly to prevent it going crazy. Had Oculus CV1 from launch but had to run low settings as my system was only just up to it. Recent upgraded to Ryzen 3800 and a 1080ti and now using the Quest 2 and its fantastic in DCS. I'm using an aftermarket link cable not the £90 official but at 90htz it's performing very well. VR is deffo the most immersive way to go but you need some stamina as it isn't as comfortable as trackir. However I personally get neck and shoulder ache using trackir due to the smaller more controlled head movements you need trying to keep the camera still while you move your arm to mouse on all those switches. Great video though looking forward to your guide to recording in VR. P.S the experimental feature on Quest let's you tap the headset twice to activate the pass through camera which is superb for the keyboard commands etc
A few of the cutaway gags went on too long, but the video was well put together, well narrated and posed good points on the subject. I'll definitely be looking into more of your work, keep it up
I decided to go for TrackIR for a number of reasons It is generally cheaper than VR. It does not block my nose, like the VR set did (i couldn't get it to fit properly and i had breathing issues) I can see the KB and press buttons quickly when i need to.
Pretty good video. I came up with similar pro's vs con's and find my 144 Hz 65" 4K HDR TV with head tracking much more enjoyable than my VR Pimax Crystal for flight sims. Especially for dog fights.
I bought an Oculus Quest 2 yesterday, and it was awesome. I thought I was going to hit my head on the canopy when I was looking around. It made AA and CCIP so much easier too. I played until the battery died and I puked my butt off. Returned the Oculus today. Still feeling dizzy and have a headache all day.
@@TacticalPascale so long as in the future they don't invent a VR system that adds G force as well. As cool as that would be. I think if you were to subject me to a 9G turn, I'd probably snap in two like a bread stick.🤣🤣
Last week I got in a package VR headset which I ordered this month and it's game changer, I love MiG-29 so first plane I try was MiG-29, it's unbelievable it's like you siting in side when you look on the wing you see how big is this beauty even taxing with it is plesure, when you climb verticali and look back the filing of the height is super, I'm pilot also in the real life and with the VR I can tell this is the clouser you can ever have been to real flying, the truck-ir is OK but the VR head set is game ganger, I recommend it to everyone ! :) Wish you all marry christnmas and happy new year :)
After my 10 year old LG 42" 1080p packed up and I watched your review of the Oculus Quest 2 I decided to get myself one (recently made a head tracker) and I was blown away by the immersion of it. I also upgraded from my gtx 1070 to a 1080ti based on your recommendation and now happy how much better dcs runs. My pc specs are MSI Z370 A pro m/board I7 8700k (oc to around 4.3ghz) 32gb ram, dcs and FS2020 on their own dedicated SSD and of course a Asus rog strix 1080ti :) im toying with going to 64gb ram next year and the year after a 2080ti.
64 gb ram doesn’t add a noticeable difference for DCS world I’m led to believe. I’m eventually going to upgrade my system.....on home command approval of course.
Your specs are identical to mine with a 1070ti. I was told it could handle VR but not sure with DCS. I was thinking of getting the 1080ti or just upgrade all together to more powerful pc but if you say the 1080ti is handling VR pretty good then that's the way I'll go for now.
VR also takes a serious amount of time to get your settings tuned correctly. Anyone new to VR should expect to spend a lot of hours tuning the sometimes daunting array of software interfaces involved to find a comfortable array.
Hi Pascale, nice video. One other option for inside-out tracking (without external lighthouses) is the Rift S; which Oculus just reduced in price and also doesn’t require a Facebook login. The downside is: it’s not the Quest 2. The upside is: it’s not the Quest 2. YMMV. There are really only two things I don’t like about flying in VR: 1. External visibility; there are times one just needs to look around the IRL environment-keyboard interaction, mostly. But it’s annoying to try to see what’s going on in the tiny space between one’s nose and one’s headset. 2. Frame rates & lag; graphics tuning has helped quite a bit for me but on an i7-8700K & RTX 2080 I typically get around 40 FPS in high-fidelity models & 80 FPS in the F-15C. Before I got the settings right low frame rates and lag were, at times, vertigo- and nausea-inducing. The payoff is indescribable, though. The immersion is what I have been looking for since I was but a bonny wee lad. And the ability to take my setup to a friend’s house (pre-COVID) and in 10 minutes be able to share the sim is really satisfying. Two recommendations: Oculus Tray Tool is an indispensable (and free) add-on. And a chair that rotates 360° really reduces neck strain when looking for that bandit behind you. But who allows bandits to get behind them, right? 🤫
The eye tracking with a 49 inch wide-screen curved monitor running 32:9 screen is very very immersive. Each to their own, I don't mind vr but can never find the buttons I need with a headset on. BTW, I use the Tobii5 head/eye scanner. Unlike vr or the ir trackers, the Tobbi5 doesn't require any head gear at all !. Cheers.
I only fly DCS World in VR! But I still see VR at the beginning of progress. My Rift S is still OK, but there are more and more better Models on the market and the technology does not stop at anyone. When I play on my 32 "LG G-Sync Monitor it is still so tiny. One look to the right or left and I see my room in which I am playing. But in VR you are in the game and you feel in a different place. Oh man, I am already looking forward to flying DCS Apache Longbow in VR. 😎 There is no turning back from VR !
Echoing what @Luke Fiedorek was saying - the moment I played DCS with a HMD (Pimax 8k+) I could not conceive going back to a 2D screen. The immersion is incredible, and it feels so much more natural. I cannot tell you how many times I've instinctively reached for the hand-hold to adjust myself in the seat...
I've been using trackir for years and I love it. It came with two clips, one for the side prob for headphones and the other that clips to the peak of my ball cap Which is chordless. No batteries. USB chord long enough to reach from on top of any monitor. This has lasted since war thunder came out, maybe longer. Cheaper than vr.
I'm on the way on finishing my setup with Pedals and mounts. I already use VR for few other games and this hits on a different level than a headtracker. Setting everything up, putting the lighthouse stations arround and binding all buttons on a HOTAS (rip keyboard if you can't see it) is quite some work. But as you said: It is getting hot in a VR-headset and on your very first hours using one.. u have to pull it so many time up to change a button cuz u can't find it in the dark. The cost of 1 lighthouse is already more that a expensive headtracker + u may want some controllers for the future for other games and then u want a 2nd or even 3rd Lighthouse for better tracking. (Not speaking of buying 3-point tracking or up to 8 body-trackers)
I agree a little. VR doesn’t eliminate the need for a cockpit. I can reach out and lower my landing gear lever and my mfd’s and ufc are also right there and I don’t have to use my mouse and keyboard. VR is cool but don’t underestimate the value of a actual cockpit
I've owned TrackIR for well over a decade, but I've never really liked it. It's better than having no headtracking at all, but it just feels too awkward to use it. When I got my first VR headset (Rift DK2), it was a game changer for me. Due to the low resolution, I continued to use TrackIR from time to time, but when I got my Rift CV1, I never looked back. I can see why some people prefer headtracking, with nausea probably being the top reason. But for me, it's VR all the way.
I bought VR for DCS after 200 hrs into it, then put another 400 hrs into VR. Invested about $7K into the PC, headset, chair and controllers, but without a doubt, VR in full 3D is the absolute BEST way to enjoy the game!!! Flat screen games feel, well, FLAT by comparison.
I tried moving to VR from TrackIR and I switched back. Not that I wasn't impressed with the immersion of it-I have no doubt that I'll eventually switch over-but for the time being, the loss of visual fidelity and framerate outweighed the gains that VR was offering. Hopefully that won't be a compromise in the future.
@@ell8711its not DCS, but the GPU and VR. DCS has a awesome graphics, and imagine now your GPU has to render this graphics 2 times for the VR... they should improve VR and implement a new way of rendering. Even if you have RTX 4090 and i9 13900K, you cant play dcs well with VR. DCS cant do anything, everything depends on the dumb VR. I never understood, why VR has to render 2 times the same graphics. I mean, i know there are two lenses, this means two small monitors and the GPU have to render then both, but this is kind of stupidity. The other negative point is the weight, it is painfull to use those idiot made devices. Did you see quest 2 or even quest 3 will have the same garbage straps, i mean what they eat? Too much humnus? If i use their default straps, after 10 minutes i have to leave... zuckerberg is just silly person.
I think generally people will find headtracking better for performance in games and with their computer. But VR is so much fun, I cant play DCS without it now that I've tried.
I've ran DCS VR on a 3080 with a quest 2and the graphics are just.... lacking... It takes away the immersion playing on old tomb raider graphics (it looks a lot worse in the VR headset itself opposed to what you see on video's.) The sharpness is so low that you can't even properly read your instruments. Had to really focus and get up close to be able to read anything, if at all. The radar was just unreadable. And I haven't even mentioned the countless hours I spent on even getting it to work in the first place without bugs, glitches and frame drops. All in all it's an amazing experience for the first hour. But once the dopamine rush runs out, it just sucks.
One BIG one that should be mentioned; in terms of DCS, VR needs a beastly PC. My relatively mid-tier rig of 5 1600 and RX570 can't get any more than 15fps playing DCS in VR... Which is less than functional. (I can handle most other VR games and experiences, getting 40-80FPS in War Thunder which isn't bad with Vsync off.)
As a former USAF pilot, I can attest to the fact that if you have a good PC and VR headset, you will experience DCS in a way that is much much closer to real life than what you get using a head tracker with a 2D screen. I just bought the HP Reverb G2 a few days ago, and the first time I tried it in DCS (with the F/A-18), I was blown away with how real everything was and how much it felt like was back in a real cockpit again. Truly amazing technology that I am sure will continue to get better in time. Definitely the way to go if you are on the fence as to which one to choose...
agreed it is so cool in VR. Loading up for the first time and seeing the aircraft in the hangar was the best for me, didnt realize how big they are
So you were Air Force, but wished you were a Naval Aviator lol
Someone offers perspective and your choice is to attempt to make fun of them???
@@TacticalPascale I don't know but I've been told, navy wings are made of gold. Just poking fun to a (former) colleague, see? It's nothing serious 😉 Besides I am a rotor head...what would I know?
You’d know a lot more than me.
I need to mention this about Track IR: I use the hat clip and my wife laughs uncontrollably at me.
I know that feeling
the good thing about VR.. you don't see them laughing....
I do as well, and occasionally forget what I'm wearing when I greet my food delivery at the door. Might as well be wearing an aluminum foil hat!
@@TacticalPascale hey TP I just wanted to compliment you on that opening clip it was absolutely breath taking. Great content man.
Thank you. Hopefully more cool intros coming soon.
Yesterday I bought HP reverb which is 4k resolution. Its like two different games. VR blew me away. Its like a dream. The feeling of size of an aircraft is so good! Messerschmitt felt so huge in VR when compared to monitor. Like real size plane. VR is phenomenal!
@
Luke Fiedorek I really hated the limited fov and sweet spot. The feeling was awesome I agree, but way too many downsides for me. I prefer headtracking.
I’m also brand new to VR... I preordered a G2 when I heard FS2020 was getting VR. Having recent found DCS I was completely floored the first time I jumped into the Huey in VR in DCS. Immediately I was sold. There is no comparison, VR Is the only way to fly!
@@Nitiiii11 You hate limited fov so you prefer headtracking? Jesus, what monitor do you have?
@@Nitiiii11 The fun thing is that you will rarely use wider FoV on your screen than what you have in the headset. 😉
@@tswdev At least I can move my eyes and see everything crystal sharp and not feel like I'm partially blinded due to the black sides and blurriness.
VR will ruin flying with a flat panel... Once I plugged into the matrix, there was no going back...
What do you do when you need to press a button on the KB?
Press it, I can touch type so I know where they are.
@@Fastbikkel a good HOTAS and voice attack helps a lot.
@@Fastbikkel don't use keyboard. Mouse or button box (custom - easy!)
@@Fastbikkel voiceattack
Once I had VR I never wanted to fly DCS without ever again. It's just that much better with than without. For me 3D is somewhat like flying the jet instead of watching the jet fly. Also I find the community quite creative in solving problems you get when using VR (for example not writing down JTAC coords on a piece of paper).
I don't want to miss it. And it has become a VR only experience for me, because it is just that much better for me!
Loved the vampire bit....been there many times :) Oh and "did you get the chicken?" ... who hasn't been there.
5 people are still looking around with their hat switch.
me🙋♂️😣
yep. 300 hours in and i still have not bought trackir. Its painful.
Poor souls 😞
whats a hat switch, is that better than using the number keypad to look around?
@@benmorrison2241 The four way "mini joystick" that's on your joystick
I found dogfighting was actually easier in VR. In a scissors fight (yep, I’m defensive cause I’m dumb) I would always lose track of the enemy in head tracking. My first vr dogfight ended up in scissors again (did I mention I’m really dumb), but I never lost track even when I had to make sure there wasn’t a hill in front of me or something. My neck remembered exactly where to look again - having to physically look around gave me much more insight as to where he was in relation to my a/c. From that first fight I was hooked. I was never that much in control of the fight before when in that very bad position.
Nice avatar king.
VR improves your dog fighting abilities because your situational awareness is trained to the max, if someone is out turning me, I will lose sight of them but I can guess where he will be much better than with trackir. That said, with trackir I have to keep watching him. In VR I also know more or less exactly when things are going to happen due to having depth perception and "feeling" the speed of things, I know for example when my foe will hit the ground even before he does and know what he will have to do to avoid it and set myself up for that.
Overall its a different skill set that you train and tbh having both systems gives you the best of both worlds. You dont have "cheats" (crazy zoom + halloween neck) in VR though, which is sad and puts you at a disadvantage.
I agree with you. I was hopeless at dogfighting with TrackIR unless I had labels on. It took me a couple of days, but in VR I can do it better even with labels off.
Can you explain the labels comment please. My computer isn't good enough for VR (Nvidia 2060 GPU), and head swiveling to find someone use a hat switch on my F16 grip is not easy, especially if I click in the wrong direction and can't get back to center fast enough.@@IcthioVelocipede
@@What_If_We_Tried In DCS and many other air combat sims, there's an option to turn on 'labels' e.g. text descriptions of other planes that will be printed near them on the screen. Sometimes they vary depending on distance (e.g. just a dot when far away, a dot + a distance, and then dot + distance + plane type when really close). It's much easier to see these than a tiny black dot.
Just ordered a Trackir with the Pro clip a few days ago, what a well timed recommendation from YT.
I started flying in XPlane, Then jumped to DCS, Right there after went with the Rist S VR, Absolutely awesomeness, Then the neck issues, Old injury presenting from the weight of the VR Gear, So now I'm going with the Track IR, to spend time really learning. Then back to VR once I can accomplish all the multi-tasking. Thanks for sharing,
"outside the game you can also see your snacks and drinks" This is probably the most important point!!! - 04:37
When we done the 24 charity live streams coffee and snacks were essential. I couldn’t imagine doing it in vr...although one of the team did.
@@TacticalPascale Thanks for a great video... and I had some really good laughs throughout. Especially that moment with the dogs!
It’s not a lie, the amount of times I’ve been “jump scared” by them is ridiculous....little buggers.
just flip up the VR headset (WMR headsets can do that, like my Dell Visor) and u'r good to go. I never ever had the issue with waterboarding btw.
@@TacticalPascale how many VR aircraft-refueling-procedures did that one VR-teammember go through during those 24 hours? ^^
Been playing in VR for about a year and a half. Honestly for flight sims for me it was a huge game changer. All your points stand, but for me in dogfighting it's way better then track ir ever was. The 1:1 ratio of head movement to in-game movement, and proper size and distance of objects in relation to my position makes it amazing.
Turning your plane and then looking back to where the bandit should be and I don't overshoot the spot or have to wiggle around. I look and what I expect to see I see...
Trying to dogfight with poor frames or micro stutter is a bit nauseating, though...
100% agree i only dogfight in dcs and vr is the best i find being in the cockpit tricks my brain
I am looking to get into DCS world. I have VR setup (Vive Cosmos) and you touched on the fear factor. I have felt that in MSFS 2020 flying into a remote runway in the dark with just instruments in VR does cause that feeling. My wife loves to come in while I have VR set on and grab my shoulders.....real fear lol. Nice video
th-cam.com/video/HPf8SN20fTE/w-d-xo.html
Even with all its flaws, it's VR for me everytime. I recently upgraded my whole rig (one of the many benefits of chosing to never get married or have kids) from a mid range system with an Oculus Rift s, to a high end machine with a HP G2 Reverb headset, and in 50 years on this earth it's by far and away the best gaming experience I've ever had. Yes it can be a bit of a faff not being able to take notes and having to pick up a controller to flip switches in the cockpit, but you're doing just that, flipping switches that have a real function in a very lifelike cockpit. The fov is a big issue in a dogfight, but this can be helped with a swivel chair so you dont need to crank your neck so much, but such minor draw backs are worth it for the immersion.
I have around 500 hours of private pilot time in a few different light aircraft, and VR is easily the most comparable to flying a real aircraft. The flight models in DCS are worryingly realistic at times, and the skills I acquired flying PPL are absolutely transferable. The 3D sound quality and sense of immersion have been so intense at times, that I've had to spend 5 or 10 minutes just sitting in the now open and quiet cockpit of my A-10C after a frantic mission, just listening to the gyros spooling down and the breeze blowing through the dark cockpit whilst I calm down.
All we need now is some way to simulate gravity and external forces to give us the seat of the pants feeling you get from a real aircraft, and we're there 👍👍
Thank you for writing your experience and noting the usefulness of a swivel chair
thanks for writing this
If you have the disposable income you can get a 6dof motion platform for 3800 bucks from Dof reality, however you do have to put away your swivel chair and strain your neck in dogfights not to mention it takes up space. While it isn't all that much room, it doesn't exactly look decorative.
No kids and wife to have descent pc ROFL
Man, trust me when you get older without kids or a wife your going to get very lonely
You do not need to convince me. I am completely blown away by this amazing and beautiful way to see the world.
Never go to the supermarket when you're hungry, and never go either without a written shopping list :D
Learned it the hard way.
I have a delan clip and it works great, for about half the price of a track ir. A good thing to consider for those shopping
Thanks, great summary! One advantage of VR is that it might improve visibility, because two eyes combined can look past things like window frames that are several centimeters wide. You lose depth perception in that area, since only one eye can see the object at a time, but it's a lot better than not seeing anything.
The best tips for you who want to fly Track IR is...
You guessed it. Don't even try VR. Once you go VR there everything else is depressing.
Lol. I make sure I lock the doors before VR flying. I worry about finishing a successful sortie to find that everything has been stolen from around me!
lol
After i got oculus rift s, there is no way around it, flying in VR is second to none. Real amazing
Same headset but the graphics sucks in dcs
I have both and I can say that for everyday use head tracking is way better. But for flying helicopters vr makes it sooo much easier to hover and land accurately.
I use vr for every day and absolute love it. Never flat again. No comparison for me.
Thx for covering this topic! Hope it'll bring a new generation of VR pilots into DCS PvP :)
In VR for me it's exceedingly easy to keep track of where I'm actually looking, as in how far I'm off the plane's centerline. Also of course the 3d impression itself helps with AAR and difficult heli landings etc. Of course the drawbacks are still there - for me,playing with VR is quite hard in the summer months,not just due to unpleasantness, but mostly condensation - I think a cockpit fan would help with that though.
The intro: I have been in this place before
🤣🤣it’s edited....it should change soon
I love VR and the immersion it gives compares to headtracking but it kind of sad that I can't see the fancy control peripherals that I bought for this sim.
Isnt there a way to setup a cockpit with green screen? I've seen ppl do it with racing sims
lol - the vampire ref is too real! -*also the store one as well... great vid - have my trackir coming in tomorrow and so excited - im new to DCS and a warbird pilot as well as new member of the discord - ty for sharing!
I use both. I started out in dcs with vr, but I find myself using track ir more. Sometimes I just dont feel like putting on the headet and would rather just sit back and enjoy flying while still being aware of my surroundings. Dog fighting is also much better with track ir. These days I use track ir when learning something new and dogfighting and will use vr just for fun every now and then. Vr does help with certain things. Having depth perception really helps out with landing, especially on carriers, and refueling. Other than that 2d is just fine.
I just started flying DCS with my Reverb G6v2 combined for the first time with a 3080ti card. Wow, a new level of immersion - unmatched by head/eye tracking sets, I must say. Also, the improvement of my flying due to the added level of perspective/depth of field in VR is now significant, almost a true game changer. Just couldn't get this level of performance in VR up to now. Still, there will continue to be a challenge in referring to resources outside the goggles while flying - always a problem to this point for me.
I also wanted to say, had a chance to go back and take another look at this video again today for the first time in over a year, and gotta say - TP never misses on providing a great blend of information, insight, and hilarity in these videos. Even months or years later they're brilliant!
Including lighthouse gear setup is like talking that plugging your GPU into the mainboard and connecting display cables is required to play a game. This is a thing that you go over once, and forget they're there. It is also required for trackir (or any clone) that you plug in the cams, position on tv etc. Including this seems silly. As for snacking and drinking I usually lift my headset to do it. Headsets also often provide a pass-through mode.
As for hardware required to run DCS (in particular, because DCS is horribly unoptimised) - I was able to play on 1080 non-ti 8GB on medium settings, with lower cards I'd advise using shader mods from the forums. But saying VR needs some nasa supercomputer is false, as you can actually run VR with a 970 or 980 depending on platform of choice. But you do lose some fidelity unless you're running the latest and greatest. IMHO the immersion difference is rewarding enough, YMMV.
All in all I get the feeling this is kinda biased towards trackir, but maybe I'm wrong, and I used both systems. Don't want to fly DCS "flat" anymore.
This.
To run it on "good" settings you do need a good setup. You cannot run a 970 on a multiplayer server and expect to have a playable performance (my last card was a 970 and I tried). Snacks and drinks: let me clarify, for glasses wearers you can't just lift the headset up, unless you want the glasses pressed into your forehead, hence the waterboarding.
@@TacticalPascale Yeah I tried to clarify that for VR in general you don't need to have a nasa supercomputer. For DCS in particular, you do and it still sucks. I have an i7-9700k, RTX 3080, 32GB RAM and I still get 30fps in multiplayer on poorly written missions, and 40-60 fps on free flight in Caucasus and the Gulf). That's where the shaders come in handy. But even with them, the 970 is a minimum. Also - most people play singleplayer according to ED
@@TacticalPascale Yea, but you can go with old stock like a 1080 or vega 64 and get decent performance. its what I run and you can reasonably build a rig with those for about 600 bucks. Mind you its a playable experience, not the best experience. The vr headset you use also makes a big difference since running an index in 120 hz mode means that you are shooting for 60 fps as opposed to 90 fps with reprojection. And comfort also depends on the headset so its kind of a tossup in many cases. Also some people find low fps much more playable than others. Having started my VR experience with a gtx 970m, I have gotten use to running at 15-20 fps and consider 30 fps to be very much playable while other people vomit at the thought of it. So upgrading my system to something that can run everything at 60 fps made everything look smooth as butter.
3:26 if the surface of Venus is anywhere in northern Europe during the summer then Texas must be Mercury on a nice summer's day
It's about 25 degrees C or 77 degrees F.
I live in the middle east
@@TacticalPascale well then... my point still stands, just is no longer relevant
🤣🤣 when it gets hot in the UK they have no ac. I don’t envy a Texan on summer or winter.
@@TacticalPascale right now i would kill for it to be 90f outside
55 inch 4k tv track IR user here, have been playing combat flight sims since 1995, didn't get to upgrade to head tracking until 2014 or so. I've used vr as well. Extremely large tvs combined with proper track ir curves are just better for me. Not being able to read the cockpit labels is an absolute no go. Never mind my slew of accessories like my throttle quad, or cougar mfds. Groping around randomly in the dark is a 2am in the morning bedtime activity, not one I want to be doing with a chunk of plastic over my eyes looking around in a virtual cockpit with the same visual fidelity I'd have of being in one with my glasses smudged.
On the topic of interacting with things in dcs though, something I recently tried this last year was a IR touchscreen bezel. You can install it on the, well, bezel of your tv and it offers multiple touchpoints (mine can do 10 touchpoints at once) using a system not all that different from track ir with ir sensors and lights along the inside edges looking at each other. It determines which mouse click you do by holding your finger over the click point, so a quick touch is a left and a held touch is a right click. You can also use it with scroll wheel items by clicking and dragging up or down rapidly. If you are, for whatever reason, using a flat tv I think I can honestly say don't try it. It would be stellar if all dcs modules had unified switch behavior, but they don't. Using something like ufcps is stellar, but god FORBID you want to do something like start up the harrier, where each and every switch has entirely different logic as to which kind of mouse click is forward/back/left/right. Sadly, they don't. So it can be really very hit or miss. Flip side, they're not very expensive. I think my 55 inch was only 100$. So if you got a little chunk to blow, your monitor is already within reach, who knows, maybe you'll get a kick out of it.
The HP reverb G2 vr set has a fidelity of, 4k resolution, per eye. Thats a very nice cockpit fidelity i can assure you
I already have powerful machine and a VR, also a hotas. I'm trying to get into DCS. I'm very comfortable with VR, it's a truly amazing experience. I tried the trackir webcam solution but it doesn't feel the same once you get used to VR.
Interesting, i find dogfighting in VR to be easier, because of the depth perception and spatial awareness. Yes, your neck will hurt and it is more tiring (good luck spending more then 2 hours on a dogfighting server), but being able to judge distance and which side a bandit is going to pop out of after sinking bellow the plane fuselage or canopy rail is by far more important IMO
+1. Totally agree. Maybe my setup wasn't right, but in TrackIR it was easy to become disorientated. In VR I find it much easier to keep the bandit in sight.
4K flat monitor (8,3mp) with around 60fps= VR on Quest 2 ( 7,5mp) at 72fps...Almost the same graphical power needed, except that your 2 eyes can see both 8,3mp on a flat screen and in VR, your eyes can only see 3,75mp each...So yes, you loose some accuracy in VR...compared to a flat screen. High or cold aspect , hard to say in VR
@@SETHalpine i'd usually take that loss of accuracy over the gain in spatial awareness. At least for BFM. For ground strikes though..... i understand the flat screen crowd.
Dogfighting in VR is sooooooooooo immersive. I can't go back to head tracking.
Thanks Pascale, with the price and availability you convinced me to buy TrackIR for starters.
I subscribed purely for the comedy genius narrating! Love it 😂
the scary movie dog scene absolutely sent me
Bought into DCS hardcore with the VR headset and a few modules of varying levels such as the F-14, 15, and 16, and am still having trouble getting a dang aircraft off the ground let alone try to land one because I'm having to pull the headset up constantly to figure out how to coldstart reference a landing video, or twisting to find some button somewhere and having to really squint to read some labels despite the game textures being on a high quality. Overall I would prefer to do VR entirely, but I think for learning the software and navigating the principles, the situational awareness afforded from using track IR may have been the route I should have gone first, then migrated over to VR once I learned how to actually takeoff, land, and navigate the avionics of a module. Open to feedback if there is any, but my two cents. Thanks for the video!
after i bought my first vr headset, i was amazed by the dcs immersion and i think it will be better when my g2 reverb arrives.
It is got the G2 big improvement over the samsung in clarity...only the FOV is a tradeoff
@@MrTailspinstu i improved the fov a lot by changing the facial foam.
Subscribed for the effort put into this video to be informative and creative, and that "I know exactly what dogfighting in real life" casual flex.
🤣🤣 welcome aboard
I use both. Improvised head tracking (Samsung phone camera + openTrack) for learning/practice and VR for flying actual missions. When learning a new module, often need to refer to the manual or use keyboard controls for certain things, which is a bit tricky in VR before the muscle memory for that module develops.
well done video! I like how you show what happens BEHIND that VR helmet...in real life!! 6:26 "He sees us!!!"
As a new player using VR I totally agree about things like keybinds, charts, freq etc. Getting enough keybinds on the Hotas, and were you can remember them, is also a challenge. I tried a homemade head tracker (Playstation camera and head mounted LED) but I struggled with the setup. I was using a ultrawide monitor and I couldn't get a good profile, especially up / down.
A huge downside, as you said, was the setup cost of VR. I was getting playable FPS when I got my VR (Reverb G2) in January, but by March I'd dropped £3k + upgrading my PC.
While back i went for the VR first time. Mixed feelings. Yeah the feeling of being there etc is very cool, but was very dissapointed with the FOV. Dogfighting is kind of pain in the ass, i really hate to check six with reduced FOV (compared to real life) on an office chair. For Scenery flights i think the gfx aren't good enough. Also hate how every little stutter of fps drop etc is super annoying, even the tiniest ones you hardly notice on monitor. And how Flight Sims tend to require gfx tweaking rather than pulling everything on ultra and go. That said VR is too good to be disregarded totally, but i won't sell my monitor nor trackir just yet. Usually the VR wow factor fades and you just want easy relaxing and comfy flying solution, and sometimes you want VR....
I have Rift S and more recently Quest 2. I have an i9, 2070s and 64gb. While the immersion is amazing in VR there’s always something that goes wrong/needs tweaking - every time. I have spent more time tweaking settings and trying to remove jitters and shiny graphics than flying in DCS and MSFS. Guardian and tracking also can be a problem if the lighting is weak.
Also the cockpit buttons and screens are a lot harder to see in VR too. The audio isn’t as immersive without using my gaming headphones - and if you wear glasses like me.... it’s also a pain.
I love VR. I’ve invested heavily but I honestly believe VR optimisation in 2d designed games just isn’t there yet. For native VR games it’s unreal. And for a casual pleasure flight it’s definitely worth it. But for competitive flight, or when you just want to “switch on and fly” honestly, VR is just a pain in the ass most of the time.
As a dad with a day job and limited hours to play, I’m fed up with needing additional hours and software (oculus tray tool) to keep tweaking VR every time I try a new module or there’s a VR/game update etc.
I simply want to fly smoothly and have fun and make use of my headphones and 4K monitor too. For that reason, and even after paying £000’s on my setup, I am not using VR right now to fly and have ordered TrackIR. It’s just not there yet imo.
Hope that helps someone out there ✌🏼
As someone who is very interested but has not even touched the game yet, I would assume the people with TrackIR will really have an edge when it comes to dogfighting. As he mention in the video, superior visual quality and no head turning to instantly watch your back, leading to less fatigue and discomfort. If you think about, in a dogfight, that ability alone is almost like cheating.
@@TheSunIsMyDestroyer I agree. I’m just buzzing about in an F18 with TrackIR right now after a week on VR and the graphical quality and ease of head movement is amazing. Not to mention I can actually use my Warthog Hotas because I can see the buttons and switches lol
I’ve used track it for years and still do when I’m not feeling VRish. Now one thing about immersion, I’ll be fangs out in a DCS dogfight, totally forgetting the real world, then my dogs run in the room, jump on the arm of the chair and scare the living sh@t outta me. Now that’s immersion.
I read your blog and found out you were a GCI and intercepted a Russian aircraft with a Typhoon, that's really cool! Thanks for the guide, it was an enjoyable watch. o7
Yes I did, and I miss it.
07:12 Spot on mate... Flying a Huey (or any helo) in VR is just something else and you'll never go back once you try it! In fact I would still prefer to sacrifice the graphics for the immersion every day even in dog fights :D
I got a Rift S to use with DCS last year. I would agree that the immersion is amazing. But... I just couldn't get over the graphical side of it. The 'blocky' pixelated nature of it just pulled me right out. I seem to be one of the few who find it an issue, though, so maybe it's just a personal thing! Ended up selling it after a month.
I'd say if you purely want immersion, then VR. If you want comfort, etc and crisp clear graphics then stick with tracking until the VR companies can increase the pixels on their headsets (for a reasonable price! This may take another 5 years or more...)
I agree with you, idk what's worse, the shit graphics or the shit performance in vr, they really gotta fix vr mode.
"Getting licked by your dog while immersively engaged with your VR goggles on." bahahaha.
Hasn't happened to me yet thank goodness and I hope it never does. I'd go through the roof!
Great video as always brother. Just got my quest 2 today. Im trying to set it up in a little bit. Pumped
If you like to build a physical cockpit -> Headtracking.
If you like immersion and have a pc with good specs -> VR
An advantage of headtracking is that you can do it with a phone using opentrack and FreePIE IMU.
It uses the phone's gyros and magnetometer, so no image tracking is required.
It works pretty well.
All great points!
As a pilot in real life, I've found the VR Headset is by far the most immersive. However, not seeing the keyboard is the drawback of the setup despite HOTAS, because there are still commands that need keyboard input.
I mean, if you spend more time on the PC you dont need to see the keyboard anymore, I've spent more than 13 years daily at the PC now so I can already write very long texts without seeing my keyboard by a tiny bit, all I need to initially know is where the W is at
Two years ago I was all against VR, but look at me now gliding through in Quest 2 and thinking upgrading to Pro. 2.8 made VR much better, and I also upgraded PC a lot.
There is one more thing about VR I didn't really realized until the last year: VR is way more compact thing to travel with. I had to leave my home behind (you may imagine why), and I only have small 17 inch portable monitor with me. Quest 2 packs in a small case I can throw in the duffle and travel very easy. No way I could do the same with my old 32 inch monitor.
“I know exactly how real life dogfighting feels.” You can now drop the mike, OG. 🎤
I used track ir and considering how much I invested in physical consoles for my cockpit, it would be very difficult to use in VR unless you memorize exactly where every button is. VR is nice if you only intend to use your mouse to input data in your cockpit. Overall, I'm loving trackir.
Uh no. Use the controllers
@@prancer1803 Can you use the controllers in VR and a physical HOTAS at the same time? If so, and you take your hand off of the HOTAS to push a button, is it difficult to bring your hand back onto the HOTAS, or do you wind up reaching all over the place until you actually put your hand back on it? Is that an issue that muscle memory eventually will alleviate? I suppose that would still be an issue if you used a mouse like Slyder Ace suggested.
@@keithr5638 use voice attack for all keybinds no more looking for keys
I want to hear the argument from the standpoint of 'real' hotas and controls vs. clickable cockpits.
Edit: to clarify, I love the immersion of VR, but I also want to be able to look down and flip physical switches without having to replicate a 1:1 accurate simpit. From a cost standpoint, I can see a good graphics card/VR headset being a similar investment as building out a simpit with a WinWing or Virpil Hotas/control panel and TrackIR.
At least having some Cougar MFD's and a few switch panels really helps in VR, in my experience (I build a basic F14 pit)
Love your videos and your sense of humor, keep it up!
Been using Trackir for 10 years. Its great but needs effort on your part to configure it properly to prevent it going crazy. Had Oculus CV1 from launch but had to run low settings as my system was only just up to it. Recent upgraded to Ryzen 3800 and a 1080ti and now using the Quest 2 and its fantastic in DCS. I'm using an aftermarket link cable not the £90 official but at 90htz it's performing very well. VR is deffo the most immersive way to go but you need some stamina as it isn't as comfortable as trackir. However I personally get neck and shoulder ache using trackir due to the smaller more controlled head movements you need trying to keep the camera still while you move your arm to mouse on all those switches. Great video though looking forward to your guide to recording in VR. P.S the experimental feature on Quest let's you tap the headset twice to activate the pass through camera which is superb for the keyboard commands etc
... and snacking.
@@StarLightPL 😆👍 and snacking
A 24 hour live stream without snacks is too hard 😁😁
5:43 The fear is real. PULL UP PULL UP! Had me laughing so hard...
A few of the cutaway gags went on too long, but the video was well put together, well narrated and posed good points on the subject.
I'll definitely be looking into more of your work, keep it up
Thanks for the tips!
I decided to go for TrackIR for a number of reasons
It is generally cheaper than VR.
It does not block my nose, like the VR set did (i couldn't get it to fit properly and i had breathing issues)
I can see the KB and press buttons quickly when i need to.
Pretty good video. I came up with similar pro's vs con's and find my 144 Hz 65" 4K HDR TV with head tracking much more enjoyable than my VR Pimax Crystal for flight sims. Especially for dog fights.
I bought an Oculus Quest 2 yesterday, and it was awesome. I thought I was going to hit my head on the canopy when I was looking around. It made AA and CCIP so much easier too. I played until the battery died and I puked my butt off. Returned the Oculus today. Still feeling dizzy and have a headache all day.
You've such a geat sense of humour! I laughed loudly several times. Great views on both setops.
Thanks
Moving my head around in VR will certainly give my neck muscles a good word out.💪
Especially dog fighting
@@TacticalPascale so long as in the future they don't invent a VR system that adds G force as well. As cool as that would be. I think if you were to subject me to a 9G turn, I'd probably snap in two like a bread stick.🤣🤣
I’d weigh about the same as a baby elephant
Last week I got in a package VR headset which I ordered this month and it's game changer, I love MiG-29 so first plane I try was MiG-29, it's unbelievable it's like you siting in side when you look on the wing you see how big is this beauty even taxing with it is plesure, when you climb verticali and look back the filing of the height is super, I'm pilot also in the real life and with the VR I can tell this is the clouser you can ever have been to real flying, the truck-ir is OK but the VR head set is game ganger, I recommend it to everyone ! :) Wish you all marry christnmas and happy new year :)
After my 10 year old LG 42" 1080p packed up and I watched your review of the Oculus Quest 2 I decided to get myself one (recently made a head tracker) and I was blown away by the immersion of it. I also upgraded from my gtx 1070 to a 1080ti based on your recommendation and now happy how much better dcs runs. My pc specs are MSI Z370 A pro m/board I7 8700k (oc to around 4.3ghz) 32gb ram, dcs and FS2020 on their own dedicated SSD and of course a Asus rog strix 1080ti :) im toying with going to 64gb ram next year and the year after a 2080ti.
64 gb ram doesn’t add a noticeable difference for DCS world I’m led to believe. I’m eventually going to upgrade my system.....on home command approval of course.
Your specs are identical to mine with a 1070ti. I was told it could handle VR but not sure with DCS. I was thinking of getting the 1080ti or just upgrade all together to more powerful pc but if you say the 1080ti is handling VR pretty good then that's the way I'll go for now.
VR also takes a serious amount of time to get your settings tuned correctly. Anyone new to VR should expect to spend a lot of hours tuning the sometimes daunting array of software interfaces involved to find a comfortable array.
Hi Pascale, nice video. One other option for inside-out tracking (without external lighthouses) is the Rift S; which Oculus just reduced in price and also doesn’t require a Facebook login. The downside is: it’s not the Quest 2. The upside is: it’s not the Quest 2. YMMV.
There are really only two things I don’t like about flying in VR:
1. External visibility; there are times one just needs to look around the IRL environment-keyboard interaction, mostly. But it’s annoying to try to see what’s going on in the tiny space between one’s nose and one’s headset.
2. Frame rates & lag; graphics tuning has helped quite a bit for me but on an i7-8700K & RTX 2080 I typically get around 40 FPS in high-fidelity models & 80 FPS in the F-15C. Before I got the settings right low frame rates and lag were, at times, vertigo- and nausea-inducing.
The payoff is indescribable, though. The immersion is what I have been looking for since I was but a bonny wee lad. And the ability to take my setup to a friend’s house (pre-COVID) and in 10 minutes be able to share the sim is really satisfying.
Two recommendations: Oculus Tray Tool is an indispensable (and free) add-on. And a chair that rotates 360° really reduces neck strain when looking for that bandit behind you.
But who allows bandits to get behind them, right? 🤫
I normally sit around the 35-40 mark. I’ll need to try the F-15 though....
thanks for the balanced review. I will probably get myself a headtracking system. I like my drinks and snacks :)
Only problem is VR is awesome to feel like you're actually there but drawback is the strain on the eyes and face.
The eye tracking with a 49 inch wide-screen curved monitor running 32:9 screen is very very immersive. Each to their own, I don't mind vr but can never find the buttons I need with a headset on.
BTW, I use the Tobii5 head/eye scanner. Unlike vr or the ir trackers, the Tobbi5 doesn't require any head gear at all !.
Cheers.
I only fly DCS World in VR! But I still see VR at the beginning of progress. My Rift S is still OK, but there are more and more better Models on the market and the technology does not stop at anyone. When I play on my 32 "LG G-Sync Monitor it is still so tiny. One look to the right or left and I see my room in which I am playing. But in VR you are in the game and you feel in a different place.
Oh man, I am already looking forward to flying DCS Apache Longbow in VR. 😎 There is no turning back from VR !
Echoing what @Luke Fiedorek was saying - the moment I played DCS with a HMD (Pimax 8k+) I could not conceive going back to a 2D screen. The immersion is incredible, and it feels so much more natural. I cannot tell you how many times I've instinctively reached for the hand-hold to adjust myself in the seat...
When he said pull up!! Pull up!! I laughed my ass off hahahah. Best explanation on yt thanks buddy you got yourself a new sub.
Glad I made you laugh, thanks for the sub and welcome!
Excellent comparison. Affordability with head tracking apps like Eyeware Beam should be considered as well.
Nice you're an F1 fan too
I've been using trackir for years and I love it. It came with two clips, one for the side prob for headphones and the other that clips to the peak of my ball cap Which is chordless. No batteries. USB chord long enough to reach from on top of any monitor. This has lasted since war thunder came out, maybe longer. Cheaper than vr.
I use trackir most of the time, however, VR is much more immersive
This really helped me make my decision, thanks!
I'm on the way on finishing my setup with Pedals and mounts.
I already use VR for few other games and this hits on a different level than a headtracker. Setting everything up, putting the lighthouse stations arround and binding all buttons on a HOTAS (rip keyboard if you can't see it) is quite some work. But as you said: It is getting hot in a VR-headset and on your very first hours using one.. u have to pull it so many time up to change a button cuz u can't find it in the dark.
The cost of 1 lighthouse is already more that a expensive headtracker + u may want some controllers for the future for other games and then u want a 2nd or even 3rd Lighthouse for better tracking. (Not speaking of buying 3-point tracking or up to 8 body-trackers)
Cheers I like your easy style and delivery and would like to join as a huey pilot if possible
Man, you were a real fighter pilot? You should make a separate channel just to talk about that, it would be fascinating.
No, I was a real fighter controller (GCI). I just had the opportunity to go flying in fighter jets several times, including practice dogfights.
7:34 wooooo nice shot
I agree a little. VR doesn’t eliminate the need for a cockpit. I can reach out and lower my landing gear lever and my mfd’s and ufc are also right there and I don’t have to use my mouse and keyboard. VR is cool but don’t underestimate the value of a actual cockpit
I've owned TrackIR for well over a decade, but I've never really liked it. It's better than having no headtracking at all, but it just feels too awkward to use it. When I got my first VR headset (Rift DK2), it was a game changer for me. Due to the low resolution, I continued to use TrackIR from time to time, but when I got my Rift CV1, I never looked back. I can see why some people prefer headtracking, with nausea probably being the top reason. But for me, it's VR all the way.
I actually spent over a year just using the hat switch. Was OK for air to ground but with trackir it's like night and day.
Thumbs up for the McLaren mask
Great vid and love the humor. Maybe TrackIR will help me actually get my P-51 off the tarmac lol.
I bought VR for DCS after 200 hrs into it, then put another 400 hrs into VR. Invested about $7K into the PC, headset, chair and controllers, but without a doubt, VR in full 3D is the absolute BEST way to enjoy the game!!! Flat screen games feel, well, FLAT by comparison.
Got vr, cannot go back. I can't fly without it now
@1:53 -- The illustration here is cute, thank you @1:53
one time I got into a one circle dogfight in vr and for about 20 minutes I was leaning my neck all the way back and had neck cramp the next day
I tried moving to VR from TrackIR and I switched back. Not that I wasn't impressed with the immersion of it-I have no doubt that I'll eventually switch over-but for the time being, the loss of visual fidelity and framerate outweighed the gains that VR was offering. Hopefully that won't be a compromise in the future.
You need a better PC bro
@@Davis2920022001 not the pc thats the issue most of the time, it's just how unoptimized dcs is
@@ell8711its not DCS, but the GPU and VR. DCS has a awesome graphics, and imagine now your GPU has to render this graphics 2 times for the VR... they should improve VR and implement a new way of rendering. Even if you have RTX 4090 and i9 13900K, you cant play dcs well with VR. DCS cant do anything, everything depends on the dumb VR. I never understood, why VR has to render 2 times the same graphics. I mean, i know there are two lenses, this means two small monitors and the GPU have to render then both, but this is kind of stupidity.
The other negative point is the weight, it is painfull to use those idiot made devices. Did you see quest 2 or even quest 3 will have the same garbage straps, i mean what they eat? Too much humnus? If i use their default straps, after 10 minutes i have to leave... zuckerberg is just silly person.
Bro caught me off guard tf goes hard
I think generally people will find headtracking better for performance in games and with their computer. But VR is so much fun, I cant play DCS without it now that I've tried.
I've ran DCS VR on a 3080 with a quest 2and the graphics are just.... lacking... It takes away the immersion playing on old tomb raider graphics (it looks a lot worse in the VR headset itself opposed to what you see on video's.) The sharpness is so low that you can't even properly read your instruments. Had to really focus and get up close to be able to read anything, if at all. The radar was just unreadable.
And I haven't even mentioned the countless hours I spent on even getting it to work in the first place without bugs, glitches and frame drops.
All in all it's an amazing experience for the first hour. But once the dopamine rush runs out, it just sucks.
yeah i agree
One BIG one that should be mentioned; in terms of DCS, VR needs a beastly PC. My relatively mid-tier rig of 5 1600 and RX570 can't get any more than 15fps playing DCS in VR... Which is less than functional. (I can handle most other VR games and experiences, getting 40-80FPS in War Thunder which isn't bad with Vsync off.)
What I'm tryna say, since Tac glanced over it, is that DCS is EXTRA intensive on one's PC in VR than other titles with VR options.
Like the McLaren facemask bro