His reaction is absolutely justified. Spawn Astarion used to have this incredibly angry outburst at Tav during EA when you made a reference to him having Cazador as a ‘master in the bedroom’. It was cut for full release, but looking back on it you’d realize his reaction in this video is absolutely in character and insanely unfair of the player character to say.
Exactly. The player has the choice to be so needlessly cruel to him. I would react the same way if I had gone through even a fraction of what Astarion experienced.
Exactly this. Hopefully this next patch will fix that whole conversation, since there is no option in that part of the dialogue to pick anything remotely like what a supportive PC would pick. My Durge just wanted to stick to 'I wanted what's best for you'. That's it, no lesson, no extortion, literally just, "you said you needed this, that's enough for me". Astarion is Durge's rider or die, he deserves the same.
I always thought those options comparing him to Cazadork were so weirdly placed 😂 like truly, narratively speaking it made no sense at all, like he hasn't done anything to us at all at that point but we sure have the option (several times btw) to be needlessly cruel to him and then acting all surprised when he gets rightfully angry
Yeah, the dialogue options for the player after Astarion ascends represents some of the weakest writing in the game, imo. It completely ignores the Act 2 lock-in by allowing the player to proposition him. Alternatively, you can make a demand to become a vampire - a conversation that maybe should've come up at least once in passing. Or, you can start several arguments based on topics that have literally never been addressed or, of course, compare him to his abuser as someone who has known him for a few weeks. It feels as though I've missed several conversations going through the dialogue options.
It's so cruel that the PC can turn around and immediately compare him to his literal torturer right after the ritual. Before he's even had time to do anything, let alone be "just like Cazador". His anger is totally justified. The accusation isn't even based in anything at that point. How is him going "how dare you?!" evidence that he's now some master torturer and just like Cazador? Silly. Seeing a severe lack of flaying, impaling, starving, and sticking Tav in a tomb to make that accusation. If anything his reaction proves just how different he is. Cazador 2.0 where? Great vid summary as always 🖤
Yeah, the idea that you can talk to people however you want and they should just roll over and take it, is certainly, a take. I love that he stands up for himself here. And, unlike the dialogue options for the player that are based on assumptions and gaslighting, his comments are all facts.
I love your videos, and creating awareness of a lot of arguments that some people like to bring up. I swear if I hear Cazador 2 one more time. Where?? And he has every right to yell at you.
If you pass a few checks when interacting with a skull in Cazador's dungeon, the game confirms that ascension changes you. The skull belonged to Cazador's own master when he was a spawn. Astarion becomes his abuser if he ascends just like Cazador did
I'd say his anger is understandable because in the moment he was drunk off the smell of blood, clearly irrational, fueled by his lust for revenge. Ascended Astarion calling you out is also justified cause you're to blame as well. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO HELP HIM DESTROY THE SITH, NOT JOIN THEM! Edit: It seems people still want to argue on why Astarion actually wants to ascend, how it's actually the best thing for him, and persuasion rolls are actually evil, it's manipulation, you're telling the characters what they want, etc. etc. 1. If you look it up Google tells you ascending Astarion removes all that character growth and reduces him back to same Rogue you met on the beach. 2. Astarion's obsession with Ascending mirror's Cazedor's. He only wants to because he's addicted to power (thanks to his backstory) and he wants revenge. 3. If you romance Spawn Astarion he FLAT OUT TELLS AND THANKS YOU FOR NOT LETTING HIM ASCEND CAUSE HE'D BASICALLY BE ANOTHER CAZEDOR! 4. Watch this video: th-cam.com/video/lO0jhLL7XHk/w-d-xo.html Astarion is at 10:21
Oh, I 100% agree that the player is to blame as well when it comes to the 7K sacrifice. I don't know if I can agree that a vampire wanting to never endure vampiric hunger or wanting to walk in the sunlight is "irrational", though. Those seem like very rational wants, to me, at least. Well, he asks for help, then there's a persuasion check for the player to try to change his mind about what he wants - which is help to ascend. If you fail that persuasion check, you find out exactly how he feels about the player not helping him - romanced or not. So, to some extent, in order to ensure you can manipulate him, you have to play the game a very specific way - e.g., saving up inspiration points, have a high charisma character, etc. There's definitely a bit of meta-gaming involved. As the player, I have fun when I'm on the same page as my companions. The companions that I don't like or if I don't like their goals, they stay home with Withers. Personally, I don't feel comfortable RP'ing as someone telling another adult what is best for their own lives or trying to manipulate them out of what they want for themselves. It feels odd to hear Astarion say he wants this the entire game and ignore it, assuming that my character knows best for him. So, I don't RP that way. A vampire who can walk in the sun and has none of the weaknesses of standard vampires is close to being a god. That's a downside for Baldur's Gate, but it's a huge win for Astarion. And, if I have to choose between 7K pixel souls with no narrative or gameplay value or helping my in-game LI become everything they've ever wanted, well, it's a super easy decision for me.
@@RPG_NoMeDiga A vampire wanting to walk in the sun and not worry about hunger is very rational. I am saying that since he was confronted with his tormentor, there's a shit ton of blood everywhere, and he wants Cazedor to suffer he's not thinking rationally or the consequences of what he believes he wants right now. I personally don't see the persuasion checks with key story moments as telling another adult how to live their life or manipulate them. I see it more has you helping them find another way and restore a bit of hope. I do know there is a wisdom check you can do with romanced Ascended Astarion to see what he really thinks of you. Idk when or how though. I also can't find a video showcasing it. Plus if if you look up what happens after you let Astarion Ascend google shares that all the positive character development he can have goes out the window and he is right back to how he was when you first encountered him on the beach.
@@KollbjornYT I can see what you're saying. Not all player dialogue options lead to the same response from Astarion. So, in my playthroughs as Durge, he has said he wants to ascend in every conversation about it before Cazador. When it comes up at the Cazador fight, it's consistent to what we've already discussed and doesn't come across as irrational at all. well, he says what he wants and then the player can say, "I want you to live a life you can be proud of". That statement is about the player, not Astarion, right? My take is he's vulnerable and trusts the player, and the player can use that to manipulate him. What's a persuasion check if not manipulation? I don't think Yurgir in Act 2 wants to kill himself, but with high enough charisma, I can make him think he does. Of course, it's fine to make this call as the player! It's just not a call I enjoy making. Oh yeah, that wisdom check, that statement is about how he views himself. It's basically saying "you can do better than me." Which, makes sense to me, Astarion has low self-esteem. If you pick him over another companion in Act 2 he's surprised and fumbles through the conversation. If you break up with him in Act 3, he says he was counting down the time or he can't blame you. Re: character development - that really varies based on the player. I'm not sure about his friend path, but romanced Astarion's character development, imo, is that he grows to also care about the player [where he was super selfish initially]. Vampires are not known for sharing power, but Astarion immediately shares his power with a romanced player [Lae'Zel even comments on it]. And again, based on dialogue options, he makes good on what he has said to the player, e.g., Act 2: "I want to protect you, too" - AA in Act 3 with Araj [I'll protect you.] He says you're a team, and then if you accept Bhaal and the companions attack you, he has your back. I mean, I like Astarion in Act 1, I wouldn't spend hours playing with him in my party if I didn't enjoy his personality. Whereas with UA, it makes me a little sad to see how he has lost quite a bit of his passion for life. I think narratively it makes a ton of sense, but it's also heartbreaking to me, to know that my character took something away from him.
@@RPG_NoMeDiga Seems we will have to agree to disagree than. Glad we could have a respectful discussion though. They aren't common on the internet so I appreciate it
I can understand why Astarion would view himself as not as bad as his abuser at this stage. But there are clues that Astarion will take the same path as Cazador, with the player's help, if he ascends. Before reaching BG, in discussing his plans for ascension, Astarion may say that the problem with what Cazador did to him is that he did it to Astarion. We already know that Astarion generally approves of cruelty and has no sympathy for the weak and enslaved. Astarion expresses limited sympathy for Sebastian and the Gur children. But when you suggest he can save them, he calls them foolish, villains, scraps of misery. He values the power he could gain over their lives and, like Cazador, views them as a means to an end. If he ascends, you and Astarion both condemn 7000 innocent souls to eternity in hell so that 1 man can walk in the sun again and deal 1d10 necrotic damage. Cazador's means of controlling his spawn was fear and torture. Astarion becomes possessive and controlling of Tav/Durge ("You're going to be wonderfully obedient", "I am always watching", "I will see you living the very best life, even if you don't appreciate it") in his own way, through manipulation and seduction. His anger here is understandable, to be compared to Cazador. But that is clearly what he is going to become. The game TELLS you this.
Even if you think the game tells you this...Tav has nothing to base this on by this point. There is a reason perhaps that he can also tell you "You think you can sit there and tell me how to feel?" Much like when Tav tells him they miss the "Sweet uncertain boy" (This is Tav....trying to make Astarion think something that isnt true) the Cazador comparisons whenever Tav uses them are incorrect. Did anyone never stop to think that the character is the one with agency, and how Tav speaks to and treats their romance partner is where the options to be manipulative are?
@@SquirrellySkeptical the player character is seeing everything the player is seeing. You're both seeing Astarion's lust for power, his contempt for his victims, his refusal to commit to making Tav a full vampire. Like I said, I get why he's mad at being compared to his abuser, but Tav has got to see how she's helping Astarion become like Cazador.
@MJ-mp1fx they are. Yes. So when does the player see him acting like cazador between the ritual chamber and the camp dialogue starting? When between the confession scene and camp dialogue starting does the player see evidence astarion doesn't love them? Or are they just saying things that aren't true
@@MJ-mp1fx Astarion's lust for power and contempt for his victims (or anyone he perceives as weak) is ASTARION lol. That is who he is from act 1. It does not magically appear once he ascends. And it stays even if he refuses the ritual. No "true vampire" wants to share their power, he says that in act one. That's not Cazador specific, and Astarion ascended offers to share everything he has with his Tav. Even his blood. He gives Tav the ability to walk in the sun. Something even true vampires like Cazador wanted. None of these things relate him to Cazador lmao.
@@SquirrellySkeptical I think Ascended Astarion does love Tav, and my understanding is Larian's take is that AA lives Tav obsessively. Post Ascension, AA expresses plans to subjugate the world, and he refuses to commit to make Tav a full vampire. Add that to all of the context clues you get beforehand from Astarion's descriptions of his life as a spawn, what vampire lords are like, and everything you find in Cazador's mansion and crypt about the tortured spawn to vampire lord pipeline.
His anger isn't at the comparison, it's at saying his master's name. Ascended Astarion is going through major trauma regression and struggles even hearing his master's name just as Astarion was in act 1 talking about his past.
This is just objectively not even true lol. "How did it feel killing Cazador?" "Oh, it felt wonderful! The blood, the screaming, just thinking of it makes me smile!" He also says it was a pity he didn't keep Cazador's skull. His anger is directly about the comparison so immediately after the fight. Tav and others can mention Cazador without being a dick about it and he's happy and fine. He isn't "regressing" to an earlier period in his childhood wtf? Lol. Getting mad at being compared to his torturer is normal. How are we not acting like his upset isn't normal and valid here? If we're so into armchair psychology that we read on the Internet once. "He's regressing". Lol. Lmao, even. What even is this take? If Astarion started using baby talk to feel safe around Tav I'd burn the whole game 😂
Astarion addresses that entire dialogue to the companion and the role that they played in his ascension. How could it be about anything else? From the conversation: Don't YOU ever compare me to him. How dare YOU stand there and judge Me. As if you know the first thing. YOUR hands are as bloody as mine, darling. Why would YOU go along with any of this, just to pretend that you're innocent now? If he's only mad about hearing Cazador's name, then how would you explain the rest of what he says?
His reaction is absolutely justified. Spawn Astarion used to have this incredibly angry outburst at Tav during EA when you made a reference to him having Cazador as a ‘master in the bedroom’. It was cut for full release, but looking back on it you’d realize his reaction in this video is absolutely in character and insanely unfair of the player character to say.
Exactly. The player has the choice to be so needlessly cruel to him. I would react the same way if I had gone through even a fraction of what Astarion experienced.
Exactly this. Hopefully this next patch will fix that whole conversation, since there is no option in that part of the dialogue to pick anything remotely like what a supportive PC would pick. My Durge just wanted to stick to 'I wanted what's best for you'. That's it, no lesson, no extortion, literally just, "you said you needed this, that's enough for me".
Astarion is Durge's rider or die, he deserves the same.
A very valid anger response. Your work is always appreciated.❤
I always thought those options comparing him to Cazadork were so weirdly placed 😂 like truly, narratively speaking it made no sense at all, like he hasn't done anything to us at all at that point but we sure have the option (several times btw) to be needlessly cruel to him and then acting all surprised when he gets rightfully angry
Yeah, the dialogue options for the player after Astarion ascends represents some of the weakest writing in the game, imo. It completely ignores the Act 2 lock-in by allowing the player to proposition him. Alternatively, you can make a demand to become a vampire - a conversation that maybe should've come up at least once in passing. Or, you can start several arguments based on topics that have literally never been addressed or, of course, compare him to his abuser as someone who has known him for a few weeks. It feels as though I've missed several conversations going through the dialogue options.
Thank you so much, I hope these videos will help reach people that, for some reason, don't seem to comprehend arguments in pure text.
It's so cruel that the PC can turn around and immediately compare him to his literal torturer right after the ritual. Before he's even had time to do anything, let alone be "just like Cazador".
His anger is totally justified. The accusation isn't even based in anything at that point. How is him going "how dare you?!" evidence that he's now some master torturer and just like Cazador? Silly. Seeing a severe lack of flaying, impaling, starving, and sticking Tav in a tomb to make that accusation. If anything his reaction proves just how different he is. Cazador 2.0 where?
Great vid summary as always 🖤
Yeah, the idea that you can talk to people however you want and they should just roll over and take it, is certainly, a take. I love that he stands up for himself here. And, unlike the dialogue options for the player that are based on assumptions and gaslighting, his comments are all facts.
Love it and agreed! ♥♥♥
I love your videos, and creating awareness of a lot of arguments that some people like to bring up. I swear if I hear Cazador 2 one more time. Where?? And he has every right to yell at you.
If you pass a few checks when interacting with a skull in Cazador's dungeon, the game confirms that ascension changes you. The skull belonged to Cazador's own master when he was a spawn. Astarion becomes his abuser if he ascends just like Cazador did
@@basicbluetrash When did Cazador ascend?
Tbh i live with the blood on my hands. My kill count is alteady there
Especially a Dark Urge character.
Their background is literally an amnesiac necrophiliac serial killer.
@@evelynjolly9375 7k is rookie numbers for my drow Durge. Gotta get those numbers up. Throw in an extra 3k, make it an even 10!
Супер!! А можно еще сравнение поведения Каза и АА? А то многие пишут что он начал относиться к ИП также как Каз к нему и говорит теми же словами
Sure, I can pull something together!
@@RPG_NoMeDiga I'll be looking forward to it ❤️❤️❤️
I'd say his anger is understandable because in the moment he was drunk off the smell of blood, clearly irrational, fueled by his lust for revenge. Ascended Astarion calling you out is also justified cause you're to blame as well. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO HELP HIM DESTROY THE SITH, NOT JOIN THEM!
Edit: It seems people still want to argue on why Astarion actually wants to ascend, how it's actually the best thing for him, and persuasion rolls are actually evil, it's manipulation, you're telling the characters what they want, etc. etc.
1. If you look it up Google tells you ascending Astarion removes all that character growth and reduces him back to same Rogue you met on the beach.
2. Astarion's obsession with Ascending mirror's Cazedor's. He only wants to because he's addicted to power (thanks to his backstory) and he wants revenge.
3. If you romance Spawn Astarion he FLAT OUT TELLS AND THANKS YOU FOR NOT LETTING HIM ASCEND CAUSE HE'D BASICALLY BE ANOTHER CAZEDOR!
4. Watch this video: th-cam.com/video/lO0jhLL7XHk/w-d-xo.html Astarion is at 10:21
Oh, I 100% agree that the player is to blame as well when it comes to the 7K sacrifice. I don't know if I can agree that a vampire wanting to never endure vampiric hunger or wanting to walk in the sunlight is "irrational", though. Those seem like very rational wants, to me, at least.
Well, he asks for help, then there's a persuasion check for the player to try to change his mind about what he wants - which is help to ascend. If you fail that persuasion check, you find out exactly how he feels about the player not helping him - romanced or not. So, to some extent, in order to ensure you can manipulate him, you have to play the game a very specific way - e.g., saving up inspiration points, have a high charisma character, etc. There's definitely a bit of meta-gaming involved.
As the player, I have fun when I'm on the same page as my companions. The companions that I don't like or if I don't like their goals, they stay home with Withers. Personally, I don't feel comfortable RP'ing as someone telling another adult what is best for their own lives or trying to manipulate them out of what they want for themselves. It feels odd to hear Astarion say he wants this the entire game and ignore it, assuming that my character knows best for him. So, I don't RP that way. A vampire who can walk in the sun and has none of the weaknesses of standard vampires is close to being a god. That's a downside for Baldur's Gate, but it's a huge win for Astarion. And, if I have to choose between 7K pixel souls with no narrative or gameplay value or helping my in-game LI become everything they've ever wanted, well, it's a super easy decision for me.
@@RPG_NoMeDiga A vampire wanting to walk in the sun and not worry about hunger is very rational. I am saying that since he was confronted with his tormentor, there's a shit ton of blood everywhere, and he wants Cazedor to suffer he's not thinking rationally or the consequences of what he believes he wants right now. I personally don't see the persuasion checks with key story moments as telling another adult how to live their life or manipulate them. I see it more has you helping them find another way and restore a bit of hope.
I do know there is a wisdom check you can do with romanced Ascended Astarion to see what he really thinks of you. Idk when or how though. I also can't find a video showcasing it. Plus if if you look up what happens after you let Astarion Ascend google shares that all the positive character development he can have goes out the window and he is right back to how he was when you first encountered him on the beach.
@@KollbjornYT I can see what you're saying. Not all player dialogue options lead to the same response from Astarion. So, in my playthroughs as Durge, he has said he wants to ascend in every conversation about it before Cazador. When it comes up at the Cazador fight, it's consistent to what we've already discussed and doesn't come across as irrational at all.
well, he says what he wants and then the player can say, "I want you to live a life you can be proud of". That statement is about the player, not Astarion, right? My take is he's vulnerable and trusts the player, and the player can use that to manipulate him. What's a persuasion check if not manipulation? I don't think Yurgir in Act 2 wants to kill himself, but with high enough charisma, I can make him think he does. Of course, it's fine to make this call as the player! It's just not a call I enjoy making.
Oh yeah, that wisdom check, that statement is about how he views himself. It's basically saying "you can do better than me." Which, makes sense to me, Astarion has low self-esteem. If you pick him over another companion in Act 2 he's surprised and fumbles through the conversation. If you break up with him in Act 3, he says he was counting down the time or he can't blame you.
Re: character development - that really varies based on the player. I'm not sure about his friend path, but romanced Astarion's character development, imo, is that he grows to also care about the player [where he was super selfish initially]. Vampires are not known for sharing power, but Astarion immediately shares his power with a romanced player [Lae'Zel even comments on it]. And again, based on dialogue options, he makes good on what he has said to the player, e.g., Act 2: "I want to protect you, too" - AA in Act 3 with Araj [I'll protect you.] He says you're a team, and then if you accept Bhaal and the companions attack you, he has your back. I mean, I like Astarion in Act 1, I wouldn't spend hours playing with him in my party if I didn't enjoy his personality. Whereas with UA, it makes me a little sad to see how he has lost quite a bit of his passion for life. I think narratively it makes a ton of sense, but it's also heartbreaking to me, to know that my character took something away from him.
@@RPG_NoMeDiga Seems we will have to agree to disagree than.
Glad we could have a respectful discussion though. They aren't common on the internet so I appreciate it
@@KollbjornYT same, take care!
I can understand why Astarion would view himself as not as bad as his abuser at this stage. But there are clues that Astarion will take the same path as Cazador, with the player's help, if he ascends.
Before reaching BG, in discussing his plans for ascension, Astarion may say that the problem with what Cazador did to him is that he did it to Astarion. We already know that Astarion generally approves of cruelty and has no sympathy for the weak and enslaved.
Astarion expresses limited sympathy for Sebastian and the Gur children. But when you suggest he can save them, he calls them foolish, villains, scraps of misery. He values the power he could gain over their lives and, like Cazador, views them as a means to an end. If he ascends, you and Astarion both condemn 7000 innocent souls to eternity in hell so that 1 man can walk in the sun again and deal 1d10 necrotic damage.
Cazador's means of controlling his spawn was fear and torture. Astarion becomes possessive and controlling of Tav/Durge ("You're going to be wonderfully obedient", "I am always watching", "I will see you living the very best life, even if you don't appreciate it") in his own way, through manipulation and seduction.
His anger here is understandable, to be compared to Cazador. But that is clearly what he is going to become. The game TELLS you this.
Even if you think the game tells you this...Tav has nothing to base this on by this point. There is a reason perhaps that he can also tell you "You think you can sit there and tell me how to feel?"
Much like when Tav tells him they miss the "Sweet uncertain boy" (This is Tav....trying to make Astarion think something that isnt true) the Cazador comparisons whenever Tav uses them are incorrect.
Did anyone never stop to think that the character is the one with agency, and how Tav speaks to and treats their romance partner is where the options to be manipulative are?
@@SquirrellySkeptical the player character is seeing everything the player is seeing. You're both seeing Astarion's lust for power, his contempt for his victims, his refusal to commit to making Tav a full vampire. Like I said, I get why he's mad at being compared to his abuser, but Tav has got to see how she's helping Astarion become like Cazador.
@MJ-mp1fx they are. Yes. So when does the player see him acting like cazador between the ritual chamber and the camp dialogue starting? When between the confession scene and camp dialogue starting does the player see evidence astarion doesn't love them? Or are they just saying things that aren't true
@@MJ-mp1fx Astarion's lust for power and contempt for his victims (or anyone he perceives as weak) is ASTARION lol. That is who he is from act 1. It does not magically appear once he ascends. And it stays even if he refuses the ritual.
No "true vampire" wants to share their power, he says that in act one. That's not Cazador specific, and Astarion ascended offers to share everything he has with his Tav. Even his blood. He gives Tav the ability to walk in the sun. Something even true vampires like Cazador wanted. None of these things relate him to Cazador lmao.
@@SquirrellySkeptical I think Ascended Astarion does love Tav, and my understanding is Larian's take is that AA lives Tav obsessively. Post Ascension, AA expresses plans to subjugate the world, and he refuses to commit to make Tav a full vampire. Add that to all of the context clues you get beforehand from Astarion's descriptions of his life as a spawn, what vampire lords are like, and everything you find in Cazador's mansion and crypt about the tortured spawn to vampire lord pipeline.
His anger isn't at the comparison, it's at saying his master's name. Ascended Astarion is going through major trauma regression and struggles even hearing his master's name just as Astarion was in act 1 talking about his past.
This is just objectively not even true lol.
"How did it feel killing Cazador?" "Oh, it felt wonderful! The blood, the screaming, just thinking of it makes me smile!"
He also says it was a pity he didn't keep Cazador's skull.
His anger is directly about the comparison so immediately after the fight. Tav and others can mention Cazador without being a dick about it and he's happy and fine. He isn't "regressing" to an earlier period in his childhood wtf? Lol. Getting mad at being compared to his torturer is normal. How are we not acting like his upset isn't normal and valid here? If we're so into armchair psychology that we read on the Internet once.
"He's regressing". Lol. Lmao, even. What even is this take? If Astarion started using baby talk to feel safe around Tav I'd burn the whole game 😂
Astarion addresses that entire dialogue to the companion and the role that they played in his ascension. How could it be about anything else?
From the conversation:
Don't YOU ever compare me to him.
How dare YOU stand there and judge Me. As if you know the first thing.
YOUR hands are as bloody as mine, darling.
Why would YOU go along with any of this, just to pretend that you're innocent now?
If he's only mad about hearing Cazador's name, then how would you explain the rest of what he says?