Switching from class-based to skill-based is similar to changing your car's wheels from triangular to round tires. Yes, I know. Many class-based systems desperately try to adopt things from skill-based systems but are unwilling to go the whole way. In the car analogy, it is changing from triangular to square tires. I find it weird, I have seen several people who begin to design their own systems. They often have the following in common: They are stuck thinking class-based is the only way a system can be. Yet they are displeased with class-based; they have "tasted the fruit of paradise" in skill-based systems and now "forever long to taste it again" and thus try to modify something class-based. They seem to have a mental wall when I ask "Why try to modify an existing crappy system to become what you are looking for; when you can just switch to one of the many systems already having it?". - I have yet to get a good answer to that. Most are blurry rambling about how it is easier to build a system from scratch than to learn a new already made system. - Ok, a few got the realization "Oh! It already exists." and went to look into the system I told them about. Another interesting aspect of the difference; is what players remember from games they did years back: If it was class-based, they normally only remember what class they played. - If more is remembered, it is usually some extreme dice roll. If it was skill-based, they remember their character's name and many other details about the character, the story, and the world. A sad aspect of many class-based systems is they are wargames. Thus the only content they have is combat, combat, and more combat. That is further strengthened by the set of classes available being only combat classes. (For example: "Spree Killer", "Murder Hobo", and "Serial Killer".) And there are only 3 game elements: (1) Kill, (2) Loot, and (3) Denying that the game is only about killing and looting. To make matters even worse; modern class-based systems have invented boredom optimization (Abbreviated CR) to make all combat the same same. --- For the narrative vs. simulation: I prefer narrative... Somewhat... As long as it does not sacrifice logic. I like simulation as well, due to its tendency to ensure some logic. Yes, I know the "Rule of Cool", (Select the cool option over the realistic option) but stretching it to the classic "Because... Magic!" or "A god made it that way!" pathetic excuses for things that make no sense, is NOT cool.
It seems like every time I have a question about a topic in relation to solo rpgs, you've done a video on it - Your channel is incredibly helpful. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts (which I agree with!). I don't know if I missed the part in the video, but could I ask which skill-based systems you had in mind? Presumably Dragonbane and Basic Roleplaying/Runequest? Are there others that you would recommend looking at?
My current favorite picks of skill based rules right now (not in particular order) 1: Dragonbane 2: OpenQuest 3rd. Edition 3: Savage worlds 4: Forbidden Lands 5: Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 6: OpenD6
This sounds a good way to go! I have been using OpenQuest 3rd edition for the same reasons. The system just does some heavy lifting in giving me all the necessary stuff to run fantasy in BRP
"Sword on my neck" instead of "gun to my head" hits different, in a good way, and is appropriate for the context and subject matter. (Though, I guess it's just the way you say it in your native language.)
No actually it was just me trying to be clever and think of an alternative phrasing 🤣. But I sincerely thank you for giving me this validation and noticing this ❤️😁
Haven't played any solo games (yet) but we lately switched from 5e (levels) to Forbidden Lands (skills). I really appreciate the flexibility of the skills as I have noticed that I spend the experience just for the skills that I need at that current moment. And my characters "architype" has changed quite a bit from what it was from the beginning. But one thing that I do like a lot is that there are no dozens of hitpoints to track. Wounds reduce strenght/agility etc. But this then again slows down a game as every turn I'll have to recalculate that how many dices I should throw. But it still feels better than just hitpoints. Or 5Es "bonus action" where every player after their turn start to recheck their character sheet hopefully that "maybe I can do something more" :)
Forbidden Lands is a really solid system ❤️ I have been enjoying it quite a bit. The books also contain everything you would need in a fantasy world simulation from travel to castle upkeep!
When it comes to solo play, I've mainly played what are technically skill-based systems, but the "skills" are either just stats (such as with Ironsworn) or approaches (like with Fate Core or Quick & Dirty RPG System). So, in other words, broad skill-based systems, because I want to keep things rules-light and flexible. As far as simulation vs. narrative is concerned, I want to maintain as much verisimilitude as possible but to be flexible with the outcomes of skill tests rather than just success or failure (i.e. success with complications, critical results, etc.). Even in this respect, I'd rather go rules-light with the intelligent application of verisimilitude than to bog myself with a crunchy simulationist mechanics, which kills pacing for me. More than anything, I find that the less demanding a TTRPG requires the GM to compute and process data during a session or prep, the more suitable that game is for solo play.
Thank you for your thoughts! If you ever want to try a more strictly skill based, but very light system. WARLOCK! Would be great fit for this. It does have success/fail skill resolution. But it is very easy to switch that up into success/fail/success with a cost.
There actually seems like there's sort of a third category here: games with very few "skills" or open archetype sets (Kids on Bikes, Tricube Tales, FATE), and it poses some interesting questions. How abstract is too abstract? There's quite a bit of evidence that they work at at least certain tables, but on a solo level, this is a more personal question, obviously. This might fit the niche for what class-based systems are usually used for (strong archetypes) without the artificial rubric of unnatural progression. I think quantitative vs. qualitative systems in RPGs really depend on genre and expectations, but it's definitely something to contemplate. (My bias is towards skill-based systems as well. 😁)
You are right! I kinda in my mind chategorize those systems as "narrative", but your categorization makes more sense in some aspects. The question "What is too abstract" is very close to (but not the same) to the question (what amount is too little rules). Abstraction is definitely an umbrella term, where "Gamefication or Gamefying" rules would definitely go into, and that a talked about a little bit in the video. I really need to make the video " What makes a TTRPG" its very interesting question to examine the nature of TTRPGS and different preferences!
I’m curious so based on all of this what’s your favorite system? I know you have your own game :) I’m looking to get started solo play and I’m looking for a generic system that isn’t too crunchy because I feel like it slows down play. But I’m with you I prefer skills or archetypes (like tricube tales) because you can create the character to do the things you want from the get-go. And then advance as the story goes. I’m also in my 30s and a parent and I don’t have the time to read all these systems 🤣🤣 Tricube tales seems like a good fit (even for a longer campaign because I’d rather not rely on level ups in the video game way) or something adjacent but maybe there’s some stuff I haven’t heard of (I saw your video on generic systems. Awesome By the way...)
My favorite system switches and changes all of the time. Right now if I must say, my top 3 favorites are 1: OpenQuest 3rd. Edition (I prefer this system over Dragonbane because it is more open, but both are very similar and can partially be used together.) 2: OVA - just for the simplicity and open endedness. 3: index card RPG: if I want to play D20 fantasy adventure game with friends it's just so easy to handcraft everything.
@@CRP-Waltteri Interesting- I was thinking about ICRPG but was wondering if the combat was still a little too slow for people who might not be into it. I agree with your point on levels and hit points that's something I'd like to avoid if possible (hence another reason I like the perk system in TriCube). That's honestly my biggest hangup. Coming from playing video games way back when, I know I'd lose people (and even myself potentially) with doing math at a table. I know ICRPG is way less crunchy but I wonder if it's still a little slow
When it comes to solo play theres no real reason to pick between class or skill based. You can kind of pick both. If you want to play a battle mage, take a paladin but remove the limits on what spells you can learn. Or just give your wizard weapons and armour training. You can be a fighter and go on a whole arc to learn magic training under intense study and reflection in the swamps of wild aura only to learn one spell and become a level 2 fighter. With no dm or other players you dont need to worry about feeling overpowered. True rules dont exist for solo play, only guides.
This is an excellent tip! You are exactly right. When it's only you playing, you should make whatever you want to make the game fun! It's definitely okay to break and bend the rules and morph the game to fit your needs!
congrats to the huge step into becoming a recognized channel. Keep on doing what you are doing.
Thank you so much 🙏🫶
Switching from class-based to skill-based is similar to changing your car's wheels from triangular to round tires.
Yes, I know. Many class-based systems desperately try to adopt things from skill-based systems but are unwilling to go the whole way.
In the car analogy, it is changing from triangular to square tires.
I find it weird, I have seen several people who begin to design their own systems. They often have the following in common:
They are stuck thinking class-based is the only way a system can be.
Yet they are displeased with class-based; they have "tasted the fruit of paradise" in skill-based systems and now "forever long to taste it again" and thus try to modify something class-based.
They seem to have a mental wall when I ask "Why try to modify an existing crappy system to become what you are looking for; when you can just switch to one of the many systems already having it?". - I have yet to get a good answer to that. Most are blurry rambling about how it is easier to build a system from scratch than to learn a new already made system. - Ok, a few got the realization "Oh! It already exists." and went to look into the system I told them about.
Another interesting aspect of the difference; is what players remember from games they did years back:
If it was class-based, they normally only remember what class they played. - If more is remembered, it is usually some extreme dice roll.
If it was skill-based, they remember their character's name and many other details about the character, the story, and the world.
A sad aspect of many class-based systems is they are wargames. Thus the only content they have is combat, combat, and more combat.
That is further strengthened by the set of classes available being only combat classes. (For example: "Spree Killer", "Murder Hobo", and "Serial Killer".)
And there are only 3 game elements: (1) Kill, (2) Loot, and (3) Denying that the game is only about killing and looting.
To make matters even worse; modern class-based systems have invented boredom optimization (Abbreviated CR) to make all combat the same same.
---
For the narrative vs. simulation:
I prefer narrative... Somewhat... As long as it does not sacrifice logic.
I like simulation as well, due to its tendency to ensure some logic.
Yes, I know the "Rule of Cool", (Select the cool option over the realistic option) but stretching it to the classic "Because... Magic!" or "A god made it that way!" pathetic excuses for things that make no sense, is NOT cool.
Congratulations on the channel, it is well deserved. You have and continue to put out quality, long-form content and I commend you for it. Thank you!
Thank you so much 🙏! I will do my best to keep at it.
It seems like every time I have a question about a topic in relation to solo rpgs, you've done a video on it - Your channel is incredibly helpful. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts (which I agree with!). I don't know if I missed the part in the video, but could I ask which skill-based systems you had in mind? Presumably Dragonbane and Basic Roleplaying/Runequest? Are there others that you would recommend looking at?
My current favorite picks of skill based rules right now (not in particular order)
1: Dragonbane
2: OpenQuest 3rd. Edition
3: Savage worlds
4: Forbidden Lands
5: Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
6: OpenD6
Ps. I am glad you are enjoying the channel!
I've been playing my own homebrew, rules-light adaptation of BRP lately. I'm loving the skills and natural character growth.
This sounds a good way to go! I have been using OpenQuest 3rd edition for the same reasons. The system just does some heavy lifting in giving me all the necessary stuff to run fantasy in BRP
"Sword on my neck" instead of "gun to my head" hits different, in a good way, and is appropriate for the context and subject matter. (Though, I guess it's just the way you say it in your native language.)
No actually it was just me trying to be clever and think of an alternative phrasing 🤣.
But I sincerely thank you for giving me this validation and noticing this ❤️😁
Haven't played any solo games (yet) but we lately switched from 5e (levels) to Forbidden Lands (skills). I really appreciate the flexibility of the skills as I have noticed that I spend the experience just for the skills that I need at that current moment. And my characters "architype" has changed quite a bit from what it was from the beginning. But one thing that I do like a lot is that there are no dozens of hitpoints to track. Wounds reduce strenght/agility etc. But this then again slows down a game as every turn I'll have to recalculate that how many dices I should throw. But it still feels better than just hitpoints. Or 5Es "bonus action" where every player after their turn start to recheck their character sheet hopefully that "maybe I can do something more" :)
Forbidden Lands is a really solid system ❤️ I have been enjoying it quite a bit. The books also contain everything you would need in a fantasy world simulation from travel to castle upkeep!
When it comes to solo play, I've mainly played what are technically skill-based systems, but the "skills" are either just stats (such as with Ironsworn) or approaches (like with Fate Core or Quick & Dirty RPG System). So, in other words, broad skill-based systems, because I want to keep things rules-light and flexible.
As far as simulation vs. narrative is concerned, I want to maintain as much verisimilitude as possible but to be flexible with the outcomes of skill tests rather than just success or failure (i.e. success with complications, critical results, etc.). Even in this respect, I'd rather go rules-light with the intelligent application of verisimilitude than to bog myself with a crunchy simulationist mechanics, which kills pacing for me.
More than anything, I find that the less demanding a TTRPG requires the GM to compute and process data during a session or prep, the more suitable that game is for solo play.
Thank you for your thoughts!
If you ever want to try a more strictly skill based, but very light system.
WARLOCK! Would be great fit for this. It does have success/fail skill resolution. But it is very easy to switch that up into success/fail/success with a cost.
There actually seems like there's sort of a third category here: games with very few "skills" or open archetype sets (Kids on Bikes, Tricube Tales, FATE), and it poses some interesting questions. How abstract is too abstract?
There's quite a bit of evidence that they work at at least certain tables, but on a solo level, this is a more personal question, obviously. This might fit the niche for what class-based systems are usually used for (strong archetypes) without the artificial rubric of unnatural progression.
I think quantitative vs. qualitative systems in RPGs really depend on genre and expectations, but it's definitely something to contemplate.
(My bias is towards skill-based systems as well. 😁)
You are right! I kinda in my mind chategorize those systems as "narrative", but your categorization makes more sense in some aspects. The question "What is too abstract" is very close to (but not the same) to the question (what amount is too little rules).
Abstraction is definitely an umbrella term, where "Gamefication or Gamefying" rules would definitely go into, and that a talked about a little bit in the video.
I really need to make the video " What makes a TTRPG" its very interesting question to examine the nature of TTRPGS and different preferences!
I’m curious so based on all of this what’s your favorite system? I know you have your own game :)
I’m looking to get started solo play and I’m looking for a generic system that isn’t too crunchy because I feel like it slows down play.
But I’m with you I prefer skills or archetypes (like tricube tales) because you can create the character to do the things you want from the get-go. And then advance as the story goes.
I’m also in my 30s and a parent and I don’t have the time to read all these systems 🤣🤣
Tricube tales seems like a good fit (even for a longer campaign because I’d rather not rely on level ups in the video game way) or something adjacent but maybe there’s some stuff I haven’t heard of (I saw your video on generic systems. Awesome By the way...)
My favorite system switches and changes all of the time.
Right now if I must say, my top 3 favorites are
1: OpenQuest 3rd. Edition (I prefer this system over Dragonbane because it is more open, but both are very similar and can partially be used together.)
2: OVA - just for the simplicity and open endedness.
3: index card RPG: if I want to play D20 fantasy adventure game with friends it's just so easy to handcraft everything.
@@CRP-Waltteri Interesting- I was thinking about ICRPG but was wondering if the combat was still a little too slow for people who might not be into it.
I agree with your point on levels and hit points that's something I'd like to avoid if possible (hence another reason I like the perk system in TriCube).
That's honestly my biggest hangup. Coming from playing video games way back when, I know I'd lose people (and even myself potentially) with doing math at a table.
I know ICRPG is way less crunchy but I wonder if it's still a little slow
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
When it comes to solo play theres no real reason to pick between class or skill based. You can kind of pick both. If you want to play a battle mage, take a paladin but remove the limits on what spells you can learn. Or just give your wizard weapons and armour training. You can be a fighter and go on a whole arc to learn magic training under intense study and reflection in the swamps of wild aura only to learn one spell and become a level 2 fighter.
With no dm or other players you dont need to worry about feeling overpowered.
True rules dont exist for solo play, only guides.
This is an excellent tip! You are exactly right.
When it's only you playing, you should make whatever you want to make the game fun! It's definitely okay to break and bend the rules and morph the game to fit your needs!
I do not like simulationist games in Solo. It becomes too much to keep track of while trying to run the story and the game rules.
Games that rely heavily on the simulation can become that I agree.
Some people love that thou. 😁