The peculiar power lever | ATR mysteries part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- When you look into the cockpit of an ATR 42 or 72, you might notice something peculiar. One of the power levers is shorter than the other. Why?
Correction:
- At 2:53, there's a picture of a P-38 Lightning. It had counter-rotating propellers. The first prototype had propellers rotating inwards as shown in the picture. But it was discoverd that the slipstream from the propellers negatively affected the horizontal stabilizer. Consequently, all other P-38s had propellers rotating outwards. That solved the issue with the stabilizer.
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An airline captain using MSFS to show how the stuff works. 10/10. I'd buy you the new ATR in game just to share flight Deck and learn from you in a heartbeat.
Extremely insightful and very nice to listen to your explanations as well. Hope you will get a lot of additional support from the sim community with ATR available on MSFS. Looking forward to more!
Thanks a lot!
Hehehe... I'm reminded of a similar question in another industry. People made up dozens of explanations for why a particular circuit breaker was in 'that cabinet' instead of 'this cabinet'. When we finally found the original engineer and asked, his answer was simple, direct, and priceless!!! "I put it there, because it wouldn't fit in here."
Nice video with a clear explanation.
It means the left side has more salary than the right side. Just for a joke, sir. :P
Then we have three possible answers!
Best answer!!!
Haha
Thought the left side is produced in France, the right in Italy 😂
This is a feasible answer. :)
Dear Magnar! You are the best and most practical pilot who talks about his own work and technology related to flying in his videos on TH-cam. You don't flirt for the camera and you are humble and consider what you say. This is how you achieve maximum confidence. A real pilot cannot be a clown who talks too much. I really appreciate your attitude!
Cool stuff! I have flown the ATR for 7 years and never figured out why the size difference of the PLs :)
Flying this aircraft for 5 years and never thought that this could be the reason😄. Thanks commander!!
Thank you, Sir
Learning never stops
I am a former ATR mecanic
at NFD, later Eurowings
I missed that plane so much to work on.
Q 400 was a nightmare
Wow! So informative. I always thought it was purposely designed so that Pilots be aware that #1 is a critical engine. Thanks for this series!!
Years of flying the ATR and I never bothered to ask! Just thought it was one of those French things. 😆 Thank you for this, Magnar! Wish you were back with all your wisdom with us in Cebu!
So after all it was an Italian thing!
Since ATR 42-600 and ATR 72-600 were released on FS2020, the tutorials/videos has become very precious to me. Great so much valuable information ! Thx for sharing your knowledge :)
i wish I’d seen this a year ago. I bought one of these for my son’s 15th birthday. I wanted to encourage his interest in aviation; he has always loved the airplane most of all his Thomas the Tank Engine toys, and he’d stopped playing with the railway in Kirghistan I bought him for his 14th. But when he unwrapped it and was doing some taxiing to learn to fly it, these uneven sized handles were understandably a deal breaker.
How and where were you able to buy one of these? And what did you do with it? I'd be interested.
What the hell did buy?
Best explanation so far on P Factor.
Bonus points for the Porco Rosso clip.
My instructor said the P-38 was an odd case because *both* engines were critical. For some reason the descending blades on both sides were outboard. I can only assume that Lockheed had a good reason, possibly to do with air flow over the twin tails.
Your instructor should read the definition of "critical engine" one more time. On the prototype Lightning, the propellers were rotating inwards. This, together with the tail booms, created an airflow that affected the efficiency of the elevator. The solution was to swap the engines. On production Lightnings, both propellers are rotating outwards. But that doesn't mean both engines are critical. A failure to either engine will have the same effect on the aircraft's performance and/or handling abilities. Therefore, neither engine is critical.
@@FlywithMagnar He doesn't read so well anymore because he's dead. But what you just described is two engines which have the same leverage as a critical engine. Thanks for clearing up the elevator part. I figured there had to be a reason.
Captain Magnar, from Bogotá Colombia a very special greeting. Thank you for such a detailed explanation. Simply spectacular! to start my flights in FS2020.
The notion of "critical engine" is often extended to include systems, not just airplane performance. If an important system - bleed air for pressurization, for example - is driven by just one of the two engines, that engine may be considered the "critical engine" even in a counter-rotating situation, where the loss of either engine has an equal effect on handling and performance.
That's interesting. Do you know any aircraft which only bleeds air from one engine from the top of your head? I assume it would end up unbalancing the thrust on a twin engine aircraft, for example. Wouldn't it?
@@tarcisofilho4878 B737-300 for example
Now is clear for me! I was wondering why ...
Thank you for the clarification and kind regards from Italy!
As an engineer: I found this funny.
It reminds me of a story:
A husband noticed that when his wife was preparing a ham to go into the oven door a holiday dinner, she cut a thick slice from one end before she put it in the baking pan.
He asked why she did that.
She said she thought it was to help the ham cook better, but she admitted didn't know the reason. It's how her mother taught her to bake ham, and the technique always worked.
The wife's mother came for the holiday dinner, and they asked her why she sliced the end off the ham before baking it.
The mother looked puzzled and thought for a few moments. She then said, "Oh! I know what you're talking about! Back when you and your brothers were little, I didn't have a baking pan big enough to hold a whole ham. I had to cut some off to fit the ham in the pan."
Good analogy.
Nice videos, thanks for sharing with us from an ATR trainee in TW
great video! meow
11/10 explanation.
The Porko Rosso reference earnt a bonus point.
One of my favourite movies.
So it's been less than 48 hours since I passed my commercial pilot test and this video was the first time I actually understood P factor and critical engines in twin prop aircraft.
LOL 😁
Enjoyed the end 💖💖💖 Reminded me of my basic flying training in early 80s when during the preflight someone observed a sparrow nest near aileron pushrod. He made an entry in the aircraft document and the technician wrote "wingtip covers removed, sparrow flown out, problem resolved" 🙂🙂🙂 The restricted deck space was managed just as easily :)
Lovely Capt. Magnar ! The ATR is a fascinating turbo prop and your sharing of its details are great fun for aviation enthusiasts and probably aviators who are learning and flying this aircraft.
What I knew about prop effects knowledge just went up a notch. Thank you!
Oohhh the cockpit of the G.222 is from a display of the Aeronautical Museum of Maracay, Venezuela, thr airplane was part of Venezuelan Air Force, I'm so proud!!!!! 💪✈️
As in so many things in life: "due historical reasons". The whole video is still worth watching to learn about the actual historical reason!
I like the little tidbits of trivia like this. Used to wrench on the ATR-72-212/202 and the ATR-42.
I work in a airline that flyies almost 20 ATR and I bet nobody in the company know this! Thanks Sir!
Nice!, what airline?
Thank you! I thoroughly enjoyed that discussion all the way to the "punchline" 🛩
That’s the best explanation of P factor I ever heard… thanks
Was just discussing this today with the training capt on my 2hr sector this afternoon. :)
I love it. Looking forward to showing this to my TRI next time in the sim! Keep up Magnar!
Awesome! I would (mistakenly) thought it was only to prevent the hand from touching the other lever in the neighborhood. Thank you very much Captain Magnar
I Fly C-152 and the second power lever was entirely cut from the dashboard.
Damn budget cuts... Shame on Cessna for cutting corners
Fantastic P-factor explanation, thank you.
Great explanations! Subscribed! Juan
Thank you, Juan!
I always thought reason for the different sizes is a design to “help” in stressing situations with unusual settings and distractions, in order to allow an identification of engine 1 and 2 by feeling the difference in your hands… no need to look
Very interesting explanations, thank you Capt. Magnar.
Really well made videos with fun intersections 🙂
Love your videos - thank you very much!
Gracias por todo desde Tenerife España 👍👍👍
Excellent video, and I love the use of Flight Simulator to showcase effects and graphics.
An absolutely excellent video. Thank you!
That simple. Thanks for explaining capi
I once asked our French ATR instructor on why doesn't the spoiler extend upon touchdown. He simply said "Well, blame the Italian engineers for that"
The P-38 was originally built with propellers rotating in the direction shown in your graphic. However, this caused tail vibrations and the direction of rotation was reversed. In effect, both engines in a P-38 are critical. The aircraft has so much power, even on one engine, that it is relatively easy (compared to say a light twin) to stay above Vmc and maintain control. Look at the blade on a P-38 and you will see the direction of rotation is as I have outlined. Better to use a picture of a Twin Comanche or Seneca to illustrate your point.
Thanks for your feedback. I agree with you. It would have been better to use another aircraft type. But this photo was so nice, you know...
Thank you for this comment. I did know about the changing of the rotation direction and was wondering about this decision.
Cool stuff. Hello from Nakina Ontario Canada
Learned something new about the ATR today. Cool factoid
Hey even after 21000 hrs of flying I did not know this Capt 🙏
Very interesting! On its competitor, the Dash 8, both throttle levers are identical in size.
On the other hand, that engine start control on the ATR 72 look identical to that on the A300-600/A310.
Dash 8 has similar thing. It has 2 off positions on airframe de ice panel! It was the only part available "off the shelf"...!
Must be a leftover from the Dash-7. They have a lot in common.
Didn’t ask myself this mystery... Thanks Captain... :)
the movie clip in between … nice
U teach so well it feels sad that u didn't fly A320 otherwise wud had made the best videos in TH-cam on A320 too like ur videos on ATR..
Only by watching your video Sir , Any one can become pilot easily ....
I have always been curious as to why plane engines don't counter rotate for the reason of stabilization when one engine fails or to reduce torque actions on the plane. I have always however known boats with twin propellors to usually be counter rotating but i guess in this example it is because the rotation is reversed with a different gearbox which is probably cheaper than needing a whole different jet engine configuration.
thank you Captain
I kinda like your dead pan delivery
Before watching this I thought all the bi-propellor planes should have counter rotating propellors. But does the plane that has propellers that turn in the same way likely to invariably bank in a certain direction during the flight？
No, there will be a slight yaw when flying at high angle of attack. But this is easily corrected for by trimming the rudder.
Simple problem, simple solution. Done and done.
Answer starts from 04:53
I thought it's an ergonomic design to limit mistakes.
In South Asia... it would be called a _'jugaad'_ (a sort of a compromise arrangement cum innovation).
Critical engine, “the big knob sits on the left.”😁
great video
I guessed right and I don't fly planes or simulators. I'm just a happy PAX.
My favourite airport is TRF and my favourite airline is Widerøe and my favourite airplane is the Dash 8.
It is still possible to make them both the same size: just make both of them the smaller size.
Condition Levers with PEC’s and EEC’s. How old fashioned.
Funny
During my 3000h on ATRs in the 90s O did realise the difference but never asked myself this question.
When you do the next mysteries can you explain the T/O TO GND SAT box on the ENG OAT page of the EFCP?
Good idea!
Thank you for this video and explaining the concept of critical engine.
I noticed just last week that during taxi of ATR aircraft (noticed on 2 of them) one of the engines was switched off and I wondered why. Is it just to save fuel and coincidence that it was the same engine or is there a reason associated with critical engine and included systems as mentioned by Greg Faris.
The main reason for taxiing with one engine is to save fuel. The second reason is to save time during turnaround. After landing, we shut down engine #1 (left side). Therefore, when we have put on the parking brake, the doors can be opened right away.
@@FlywithMagnar Thanks for the explanation, I was going to ask exactly the same question!
@@FlywithMagnar But I always wonder that when the #1 engine was shut down, won't the thrust asymmetry caused the aircraft to veer to the left out of a straight taxiing? Plus as one of the engines was shut down, there'd be more power needed to be increased on the #2 engine so the probability for thrust asymmetry would be higher?
@@AmriTiBriOlym, this is not a problem. Very little thrust is needed for taxi, and the nose wheel makes the aircraft stable. But when the taxiways are slippery (snow, ice), we will taxi with both engines.
@@FlywithMagnar Now my curiosity has been answered, thank you so much Capt. Magnar! I saw the practice a lot of times during planespotting at SZB airport where the Malaysian regional airlines (Firefly & Batik Air) regularly operating ATR 72s. Happy working & safe flights Capt.!
Hello. Thanks for great video. I have a question about throttle of ATR72-600. As far as I know that the ATR72-600 doesn't have the auto-throttle system. Is it correct or is it just optional?
That is correct. And autothrottle is not an option.
@@FlywithMagnar Thanks for your soonest response captain! Safe flight!
Awesome!!!
Visite Campos Dos Goytacazes RJ Brasil
well done, great video!
Hello capt. Do frequent use of reversers even not needed do lessen the lifespan of an engine for the ATR72?
No, reverse does not reduce the life of an engine. The temperatures never get high, and the extent is very short. Care should be exercised when using reverse on runways with gravel/sand, as the propellerw will be worn. In most other cases, using reverse is better than using the brakes, as they are expensive (imagine a very high amount of money, then mulitply by ten.)
answer at 4:53
Well explained!
This was a good one. 👍
Thank you Captain für speaking unerstandable english without background music. As a german guy not speaking fluently english I very often have to repeat videos again and again. What I did not unterstand: I thought the critical engine is that engine which requests the most attention when THO OTHER has failed. So in my eyes the right engine should be the critical one ?
It is correct that the critical enigne is the one that results in the most adverse performance and handling characteristics. When both propellers rotate clockwise (whe viewed from behind), the most critical engine is the left, because the thrust line of the right-hand engine is further away from the aircraft's centerline than cmpared with the other engine.
@@FlywithMagnar Aah, I see ! That means the critical engine is that which should NOT fail. The aerodynamics were clear to me. However, I have thought the critical engine is the one which is more critical to handle when the partner is gone. Thank you!🙂
Dont need to watch the video to know that you can identify the power levers by feel so your eyes can be looking elsewhere while your hand easily finds and operates the proper lever.
I can identify the (symmetrical) power levers of every twin engine airplane I've every flown, without looking, because the left one is in the left side of my hand, and the right one is in the right side.
Super video !
Who remembers the power levers of the Fairchild Metro III?
The props both spin outwards on a Lightning I think.
That is correct. I read somewhere that that is due to tail vibration issues.
But then why dont they do the same with number 1 throttle to make them symmetrical?
This is an extremely, extremelyyyyy common misconception. The reason the left power lever knob is larger, is because it has to house the go-around button. You will see many twin engine airplanes where the left power lever or throttle is larger than the right, and the reason is always the same. One contains a button, one is just a knob.
ATR aircraft have go-around buttons on both power levers.
@@FlywithMagnar Hi Magnar. I should’ve been more specific. Housing the go-around button is the origins of the design feature, a trait which has managed to survive for over 50 years in aviation.
I made a quick search. Boeing 737-200, DC-9, BAC 1-11, Fokker 50, DHC-8 and SAAB 340 have symmetrical thrust/power levers. The only asymmetrical thrust levers I could find are in twin engine fighter jets where the right lever houses a number of switches.
Hi you probably talked about this one of your other great videos but why is the max setting on the ATR called RAMP?
The power levers move freely until they reach the Ramp position. This gives 100% power. From here on, there is a resistance, like you pushing an object up a ramp. When pushing the power levers further, they will reach the wall, where you have 115% power. This is for emergency use only.
@FlywithMagnar Thank you for the clear explanation
So the fact that the No. 1 engine is the critical engine isn't *really* the reason it's the largest, just a happy coincidence with the solution to the spacing issue, right?
Can you talk more about condition lever, they are making news because of preliminary report into Nepal crash.
I'm working on a video right now.
Alright. The 2nd answer makes more sense.
The other reason might be the sense of touch. Just touching it a pilot cud identify it's the right engine throttle lever. In A320 there's many switches that r designed in such a way to give a feel of touch so no mistake at extreme emergency when pilot has to act very fast.
I believe that's what we were told during our type course, hahaha. Fascinating to see how arbitrary the design choice really was! Many thanks for making this video, Captain!
Exactly my thoughts
3:03 I think you will find that both engines on a P-38 were critical. Have a look at video footage or a photo with one sitting on the ground.
The P38 has counter-rotating propellers. There is no critical engine because either engine failing will affect the flight performance similarly.
So now the question is why did they cut ONLY the right one. They could have cut both and keep only one injection mold and only one part number (I think I know what is the answer to my question...)
Is condition lever same with a propeller lever?
Yes, but in addition to control propeller speed and feathering, the condition lever is also used to open and shut off fuel supply to the engine.
Nice 👍
So why couldn't they just manufacture two identical power levers? Was it really cheaper / simpler / better to cut off lever for engine 2 ? This sounds to me like over-saving up money.
If they were symmetrical, they still would not be identical.
By "Condition lever", I assume you mean propellor pitch?
The condition lever has the following functions: 1) Open and close the fuel supply to the engine. 2) Feather the propeller. 3) Control propeller RPM. In flight, propeller pitch is automatically adjusted to maintain the desired RPM.
Nice use of Porco Rosso..... wonder why nobody's made his seaplane for msfs2020
That would have been wonderful!
1 is bigger because CAPT got bigger balls😂
Have any pilots ever put the 2nd last lever to the right - in Feather position (FTR), instead of putting the last lever to Flaps 30 degrees.. In one of the accident reports, they are saying that was the reason for Plane crash and 72 dead!
No, I have never heard about that. The flap lever is differently shaped from the other levers. But in the accident in Nepal, it appears that the pilot moved both condition levers, which caused both propellers to feather.
@@FlywithMagnar Yes, very weird, unless he wanted to kill himself and everyone..
@@liveandlearn515 that's another bad design, a control that is used rarely and only in an emergency and can cause a crash should be placed far away from the normal operating controls. At least it should have a safety mechanism so you don't accidentally activate it.
@@ronenfe Yes. The Feather position is dangerous, because if I understand even with maximum throttle, you get no thrust..
@@liveandlearn515 correct, and also no audible warning that feathering is active is an absurd too
Thx cap