how can there be an epistemic barrier between our perception of reality and our linguistic framework for describing reality? isn't the linguistic framework a direct result of the perception itself?
+AntiCitizenX hello ACX, never heard of you before(to my dismay). one of the people i sub to liked your video here, so i checked it out. after going through some of your uploads... yup... earned a sub from me :p philosophy has never been my strong point(but i am a pragmatist, thank you for giving me the proper term)
Scientists seem to believe that truth is what works (to quote William James), but what works is not necessarily the truth, and maybe much simpler to use. On a different tack... In logic, given true axioms, you can only get true results, but with false axioms, you can get anything you want. Why would you want to live in a universe that is only a subset of a meta-universe where anything is possible? I prefer to live in a larger universe where nothing, not even middles, are excluded.
Это одно из моих любимых видео всея Ютуба. Вас тоже смотрю с удовольствием 😊 (Вообще я просто испытал приток какого-то неожиданного позитива, увидев комментарий от Вас, и понял, что не могу не отреагировать)
I really like how you think. Having been involved in the new-age, hippie, pseudo-psychology comunity for several years during my education, i must say it is so refreshing to adopt this stance. Everything is clear, simpler and less stresfull, and most important, it works.
+Sinclairelim I'm going to operate under the assumption that those people will say "well that's not what *truth* means". Post-modernist semantics games are annoying and impractical. A lot of the wishy-washy, hyper-ambiguous, "truth is subjective" types don't like science or pragmatism as an explanation of reality preferring instead to derogatorily call it "scientism" (as if a religion) and claim it's just as dogmatic as fundamentalist supernatural belief system.
At the end of the day, our evolved brains are essentially Bayesian engines assessing the probability of things being true based on prior experience and evaluation of new evidence coming through our sensory organs. That marvellous engine is sadly prone to many bugs though ...
+Sébastien Laberge true. we didn't evolve to be correct or see things accurately, we evolved to survive by working together. that lets lots of bugs creep in.
no need to simplify as "bugs", on the way to finally find the Truth, we sometimes go a "not exactly right" direction, we can manage it afterwards, may be this or not this life. focus to unTruth (there is no false but unTruth, inside those we thought Truth) then all right will come.
This is the crux. The random result of randomly evolved stardust, can never produce truth. All you have are chemicals and neurons. Who's to say who's chemicals and neurons are correct. This is the very definition of absurdity.
Man, I am a philosophy student and your explanation was more clear and usefull than most I have heard from my colegues. When I finish my undergrad, I wanna make a PhD in pragmatism epistemology (I'm very interested in empirical knowledge and the pragmatic aproach (Specially Peirce and Haack). I'll share your videos with my friends. (I am not fluent in english yet. So, I'm sorry if I wrote something wrong).
+iggypopshot And evolution is a physical manifestation of this process. Among a myriad of propositions, for which only those whose consequences that are compatible with reality (and only reality at that particular time and place) continue with further explorations of variety among the details of it's original proposition. Life (or Nature or pick your anthropomorphism), it seems, is trying to figure out "the truth", herself. Is it a coincidence that our evaluation and implementation of these processes to figure out the nature of our world are similar? Maybe. Or maybe I just need to pack another bowl.
You are correct. Mathematical Logic is a TOOL we use to analyze nature, or an idea, or whatever. It is not some independent ultimate truth about reality. IF something in reality behaves similar to something WE defined, then we can use OUR logic to make predictions about that something. If our prediction is way off, it's not that something is special---it's our logic that is flawed.
It's interesting that when people really put truth above all else and sacrifice it for nothing, they all arrive at exactly the same epistemology even without any of them influencing the other. I arrived at this epistemology before I watched King Crocoduck, and I watched him before I even heard about you. And yet, we all share precisely the same epistemology.
A wonderful Re-telling and clarification of one of his earlier videos. I always find that I got MORE out of his responding to peoples objections. He doesnt break too much new ground from the older video, but he does succinctly describe and defend his position. I particularly loved the. "Beliefs Drive Actions Actions have Consequences. Consequences are Objective." Couldnt say it better with 9 paragraphs, what he does in 9 words.
Well lets say we have a belief that I dont need to eat at all. Belief: I Dont need to eat Action: Not eating Consequence: Starving to death Its quite objective..
+TheAtheistChef You see, you only asserted that starving is the consequence of not eating, but how do you know that it's true? You've observed a correlation (between not eating and starving), but that's not causation, and it certainly doesn't prove that consequences are objective. I'm not saying you shouldn't eat, but we're talking about the truths of things. ;)
1. We see it all the time. We can empirically verify that not eating leads to death by starvation. All it takes to prove the " assertion" is observation. But fine lets change the example. Belief: Bullets fired at me wont hit me. Action: I get someone to fire bullets at me. Consequence: I get shot.
+TheAtheistChef "We can empirically verify" That's called verificationism, but there are other schools of thought, like fallibilism which this video briefly mentions. It goes deep, just look up the Münchhausen trilemma or the problem of induction, quite the rabbit hole.
I am so glad i fell on this video thank you for existing and trying to save humanity from its self inflicted confusion. It's slowing us all down. Good thing people like you still exist.
How can it be slowing us down when we aren't going anywhere? We certainly won't be around forever, and when we are gone, the universe won't care. There is no end goal, and the only goals that exist are the temporary ones we assert. And there is no necessary reason why anybody else need comply with your temporary asserted goals, especially if those goals contradict their own. Why should I desire peace and equality when I am the emperor? The only truth is the violence of my assertion for my particular goals. The rest is Deus Vult, and I am my own god.
You covered this before in the Responding to Objections series. Nice up-date. You could just say, "Truth is what works, Science works, therefore Science is true!" Then mic drop, and walk off the stage. Love your work.
+Uriah Christensen It really is an update. I'm glad you noticed that. My previous video used a lot of sloppy definitions and a had some faulty understanding of how all this stuff relates together.
Have you read anything by William James? Facts impose themselves on us, and we form a belief based off of them. Then the truth value of the belief is like the cash value of a bank note. If the belief is false, then the belief will not work, and has no usefulness. If the belief is true, then it will work, and is useful. So, Truth is something that happens to a belief upon action.
Uriah Christensen Yes, a lot of James's work was very similar to my own line of thinking. He asked many of the same questions I did, and even arrived at very similar answers. I just hope I was able to express those ideas in a more modern context.
I really liked this, as well as the previous one. The previous one is actually what got me looking into James, Pierce, and Dewey. I find that Pragmatism is the only reliable way that I can see to assign truth values to my beliefs about the phenomena I experience. If one is trying to correspond a proposition to some noumena when all we have is phenomena, then the correspondence theory is stuck in an epistemological dilemma.
This video convinced me that subscribing to this channel was a worthwhile decision. And I've only seen one other video of yours before, the one on omnipotence. Excellent work.
I really really like this. After watching too many videos about philosophy I start to feel like I know less after doing so. So many philosophers seem to want to turn everything into goo. Nothing is solid, nothing is real. I've even heard about people who literally believe the world is illusory. I wonder how they cross the street.
18:32 This pretty much the conclusion I came to when I was talking intro philosophy. Though, I couldn't articulate it as well as you did in your video.
so I listen to hours of philosophy almost every day. this video is the best I've ever heard on theories of truth and their usefulness. I'm spreading this video and subscribing.
"Pragmatism is the ultimate measure of all philosophical truths" Pragmatism is a belief system, with assumptions, thus it can only measure truth within that framework. You simply stated your position (one I sympathize with ), but you haven't "solved" anything, philosophy is not that easy. Unless you define philosophy as pragmatism, but then it's just a tautology.
Just saw this. I think ACX should have gone into an explanation of what Metaphysics would be like after we accept pragmatism. As a fellow Neoclassical pragmatist, I believe he should have went with Dewey's and James' understanding of a system in line with immediate empiricism. It's a postulate where metaphysics becomes about the generic traits of existences present within actual experience as such.
Now this definition of truth has a problem. That it breaks the fundamental law of logic that's the law of non-contradiction. Now, why do I say that? Because there is no objective standard of practicality in the first place. For example we can take this sentence: “Atoms have electrons, protons and neutrons.” Now this sentence is practical for a scientist. But for me this sentence is impractical. Now I will say that sentence is true and false at the same time. Just because it's practical and impractical at the same time for different people? No! Because it will break the law of non-contradiction that a statement can't be false and true at the same time. So, here for resolving that problem we have to remove the criteria practicality here for calling it true and false without contradiction.
Wow, thank you for this very clear explanation of "truth".... which I will forget in 2 days. But no worry, I've bookmarked it, and I probably will come back many a time !
- Hey, let's discuss truth! - Ok! To be fair, first let's get rid of all assumptions and start from the ground up! - Right! - ... - ... - squirrel squirrel. - fladgibommmm ...BAPHUSTA!
+The Realistic Nihilist If the statement were "Jesus of the bible" then yes, I would agree. Perhaps, this Jesus is someone AntiCitizenX met a year ago, and was told he hated ponies outright. Yay for linguistic ambiguity!
@@charkopolis well, thing is, dont were have a bit of responsibility to understand people right? if we just say "yay linguistic ambiguity" I could literally argue that my cat is a dog and you would not be able to do a darn thing about it. yes it dose suck that all rellvent information of words cant be contained inside the words themself, but thats kind of the problem with this world.
10:00 That is not true. Equality has a definition in axiomatic set theory (x = y is defined as: for all z, z being a member of x is equivalent to z being a member of y). And transitivity follows from that definition.
Absolutely feckin' awesome. Now... cue the comments from the outraged fuckers who think that sitting around on your arse expelling flatulence from your ears is a valid a valuable tool for allowing us to understand and manipulate _physical_ reality.
I think you're putting correspondence theory to a higher standard than it deserves. The definition of truth is not in itself an epistemology and it doesn't need to be. What truth is and how we go about determining it are two separate questions. I think when we claim something is true, what we mean is this: "truth is that which corresponds to the version of reality I experience, assuming that the reality I experience corresponds to objective reality." With that assumption made, the definition becomes less vacuous. A question on axiomatic formalism. A common definition of knowledge is justified true belief (JTB). A common objection to JTB is the gettier problem, to which I tend to be inclined to modify the definition of knowledge to JTB, where the justification is also a JTB. For instance, you might see a jumping man next to you who looks like Johnny Depp and think, "I know that Johnny Depp is jumping", where the justification is composed of 2 propositions: the person next to you is Johnny Depp, and the person next to you is jumping. If Johnny Depp is actually miles away but coincidentally jumping, you would still have a JTB, but the justification would not be a JTB, so that's why it doesn't seem to be knowledge. The problem with this is you must show that every subsequent justification is a JTB, and eventually you fall upon axiomatic statements. I don't think this solved the problem of skepticism, however. A = A, to be known, would require a justification. I suspect many would say "A=A because the definition of A is A", which would imply the following principle: "If the definition of A is A, then A=A". But of course any skeptic would then ask, "how do you know that if the definition of A is A, A=A?" Even avoiding the problem of the reliability of our senses, we're still going to have to justify claims that we have no choice but to presuppose. So is knowledge of our world possible, even if our senses can be perfectly trusted? I also don't think pragmatism solves epistemology, at least not in the sense you seem to think it does. Even if you acknowledge that you can't prove the correspondence of your experience to objective reality, you still have to deal with the skepticism of other assumptions science makes. For instance, the gravitational constant = 6.67408 × 10^-11. Who's to say that 5 seconds from now it won't equal 6.67408 * 10^-5? Science has to presuppose several things, such as the consistency of the laws of nature, the principle that all events have some cause, and of course that observations can be used as data to model reality. Even worse, if you can trust that the laws of nature are guaranteed to remain constant, everything has a cause of some sort, and your senses are reliable, how do you know that your cognitive faculties that you use to come to conclusions based on your perceptions can be trusted? It's true, I'll avoid a bus if I see it, but that's because I am conditioned to do so. If someone were to continue asking me why it's wise to avoid a bus, I would eventually run out of answers.
Yeah, science! Hahaha Thank you for making this thought-provoking video. I had found a lot of things in philosophy very confusing, but late in the video, especially when you mentioned pragmatism and how a question of the number of angels on a pin is irrelevant, I felt relieved. I remember hearing about philosophies that were difficult to understand, and I admit that while I have an interest in philosophy, it's off-putting when it becomes difficult to understand. One thing that also came to mind about this was the culture of political correctness and identity politics in today's society. It can become so confusing, to say the least
does this mean ignorance is bliss so long as it cant become in-covenant ? i dont know is all i feel left with help ? or is there non Also dose this mean only testable beliefs that interact with other testable beliefs may as well be used so long as they work or are convent or am i getting this wrong ?
@@AntiCitizenX it's funny, because my interests, as well as many of my opinions have changed over the last years, but this is something I just can't get over with. Any discussion about anything is meaningless without a good understanding of truth.
"The pragmatic scientific method therefore is the measure of all philosophical truth." That's a bit of a broad stroke. What about mathematical truth? Metaphysical insights? Sensory perception (the state of consciousness itself)? Historical epistemology? Legal judgments? The latter two cases don't apply science science rigorious theorization and experimentation is impossible but I can understand that that's a minor issue.
*What about mathematical truth?* We covered that. It is encompassed by science. *Metaphysical insights?* Meaningless gibberish. *Sensory perception* We already covered that. You're asking questions that were dealt with in great detail. *Historical epistemology?* Pragmatic scientific method. *Legal judgments?* Irrelevant to the fundamentals of epistemology.
Thanks for the reaction! I don't often have channel owners commenting on a video 2 years old (let alone on the same day). I think what you write is mostly true, but if and only if you assume that science is any form of pragmatic knowledge gathering, as opposed to the methodology of theoretization and experimentation (mostly reserved for physics, biology, chemistry and suchlike). Mathematics isn't acknowledged as a scientific field; you don't use science to prove theorems (and besides, I don't think mathematicians are all that pragmatical - without applications or practical consequences in mind). As for metaphysics, I was hoping for a more sophisticated answer. All physics ultimately rest on metaphysics. You can't talk about "force" without conceptualizing it. The law of causation? I'd count that as metaphysics. But I understand it if you'd call all of this simple, not-so-interesting postulates, upon which science - the interesting stuff - is built (at this point, metaphysics, physics and mathematics kind of fuse into one). Still this field of "postulates" is probably richer than one might consider - almost every word can be elaborated on. Also I can see how you are right to call questions like "just what is matter" asked 2000 years ago a bunch of mumbo jumbo, as recent quantum physics and general relativity have been shaking our ideas on nature in ways nobody could have predicted. In any case, these theories were untestable and philosophers of nature would have been better off doing science (if they knew what it was). Sorry, I'm rambling. (Speaking of quantum physics, what's your stance on the truth of the various interpretations - or formalisms - of it? Many histories, probabilistic, Copenhagen... is there truth to any one in specific, or is it nothing but mathematical equivalence and thus pointless to ponder over? If the latter, does that imply that you believe none of these can ever be disproven? Honest questions.) The reason I brought up consciousness in specific is because you can't prove consciousness. You can measure brain activity, and make conclusions by drawing analogy with your own sensory experience, but ultimately you won't know that there is someone "in there", thus giving rise to the problem of the philosophical zombie. I guess "science" is as close as you can get, beyond personal experience of course. As for the last two, that's exactly what I meant with the definition of science. History definitely isn't science according to any conventional definition, for reasons already given. It is still pragmatic however, which is why I was reluctant to bring them up in the first place.
@@orktv4673 *Mathematics isn't acknowledged as a scientific field* No, but it is definitely a critical aspect of the scientific process. *As for metaphysics, I was hoping for a more sophisticated answer.* I was dead serious when I said "meaningless gibberish." Metaphysics is a buzzword used by pseudo-intellectuals to sound smart without saying anything coherent. The very definition of that word is not even agreed upon by philosophers. *Speaking of quantum physics* Many worlds. *The reason I brought up consciousness in specific is because you can't prove consciousness.* Define consciousness and explain it in terms of empirically predictive models. Then we'll talk. *History definitely isn't science according to any conventional definition* Historical method is very much justified in accordance with pragmatic scientific methods, but that is a very long and complicated issue.
@@AntiCitizenX "No, but it is definitely a critical aspect of the scientific process." Of course it is. You use mathematics to understand nature. But it's exactly for that reason that we consider them different. Mathematics defines things as true (axioms) and derives new truths through established rules; mathematical truths that are 100% certain. Physics's truths can never be assured with perfect certainty. Therefore they are fundamentally different and I don't see how we are not seeing eye to eye about this. "I was dead serious when I said "meaningless gibberish."" I am sure you were. Let's not get caught up in broad terms that we disagree with; I'll give three cases that I would consider having to do with truths that can't be established through rigourous observation: 1. Cogito ergo sum. It is an absolute fact that I exist, and it is for you an absolute fact that you exist. And it's not an empirical observation; existence is a necessity for sensing, thinking and observing. There is no doubt. 2. Falsifiability. Is this not a case in and of itself? You explained it yourself in this very video. The notion that a theory (in the broadest sense) can never be confirmed but only be disproven is a conclusion derived from the _concept_ of observation, not from any particular observation. And this holds true for all of philosophy of science. 3. Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I thought I'd illustrate my point with an actual metaphysical work (this is what Kant called it). Would you call this work of titanic importance to philosophical development "gibberish"? Pull no punches if you actually would. I'm just a humble theoretical phycisist, and I've tried to read Kant, and I found it quite impenetrable; I'm really trying to see just how far you go in this. His conclusions aren't the interesting thing, if any of his work is "valid" (i.e. it has any epistemological merit), I'm satisfied.
@@orktv4673 *You use mathematics to understand nature. But it's exactly for that reason that we consider them different.* So? Am I supposed to disagree with this? It's like you didn't actually watch the video. *Physics's truths can never be assured with perfect certainty. Therefore they are fundamentally different and I don't see how we are not seeing eye to eye about this.* I never once said or implied otherwise.
You ended the video with: "So unless your truth assignment can somehow facilitate my desire to solve actual problems and reliably predict the outcomes of my actions, then by definition and admission it is irrelevant and worthless. Pragmatic Scientific Method therefore is the ultimate measure of ALL philosophical truth." Any time somebody says "all" and "truth" and "ultimate" in the same sentence, my skepticism signals an alarm in my mind. I hope it does for you too. While I agree that pragmatic empirical rationalism (PER) is a solid epistemology, it strikes me as a wee bit egocentric and subjective. As philosophers, we should be pursuing models of realism that are "one size fits all" not "this size fits me, fuck you if you think otherwise." It's entirely possible somebody could pragmatically, empirically, and rationally decide something is true, when it could objectively be false, and they go about living their lives normally because they had a desirable outcome. You're equating beliefs and decisions with desirability, which is prone to cognitive biases. I completely understand that the cognitive-behavioral distinction is necessary, but the Principle of Consistency is way more important that the Criterion of Falsifiability when it comes to pragmatism, and was worth mentioning in this video. If something is consistently true, then it will always be true irregardless of time and place. This separates the boys (pursuit of provisional beliefs that result in egocentrically desirable outcomes), from the men (pursuit of consistent beliefs that result in desirable outcomes for all). I think if we want to marry epistemology with ethics (which is what I think you're trying to do), then we cannot absolve ourselves from cognitive biases. If you invoke falsifiability as your only arbiter of what can be a potentially true or false, then your epistemology defaults to a single heuristic process, and you'll have no way of measuring non-empirical claims. Particularly, discussions about morality, beauty, justice, existentialism, causality, contingency, meaning, or freedom are abstract in nature and make no predictive claims that can be empirically falsified. With PER, it seems awfully easy to justify true beliefs ex post facto according to whatever preference for a desired outcome you had to begin with. But hey, every philosophy has problems at the end of the day. So, fuck it.
*If you invoke falsifiability as your only arbiter of what can be a potentially true or false, then your epistemology defaults to a single heuristic process, and you'll have no way of measuring non-empirical claims.* At what point did I ever invoke falsifiablity as my ONLY arbiter of true and false? I specifically went out of my way to list many other perfectly valid truth assignment functions within the realm of analytic propositions. *As philosophers, we should be pursuing models of realism that are "one size fits all" not "this size fits me, fuck you if you think otherwise."* Except science is exactly the "one size fits all" you're asking for. It is physically impossible to live your life without science, because any attempt to do so would only result in getting run over by a bus. You're also perfectly welcome to offer up some other system of truth assignment for synthetic propositions, and I again listed plenty of viable candidates. The only problem is that any such function is immediately worthless and irrelevant, by definition. I can concede your entire epistemology outright, and literally nothing in my life will be different as a result. At best, the only philosophical difference you will have made at the end of the day is the arbitrary mapping of some meaningless bunch of propositions to some binary set. Whooptie fucking do. So it's not just me that doesn't care about your alternative truth assignments, but literally everyone else on the planet, including yourself.
The final segment beginning at 19:19 with the related discussion on fallibism and falsifiability is great for science and the scientific method, but you need other principles to discuss other topics relevant to daily life. This video lacks said principles, and so I can only judge it on the merits of what was said, not what wasn't said. Feel free to send me an essay or make another video that flushes out the cognitive-behavioral gap a bit further if you like. What I'm getting at is decisions like "what should I eat for dinner?" to an extent involve some degree of irrationality (such as what you feel like eating), that are difficult to predict. The problem has multiple solutions, which could all be desirable. We're humans after all, and not Vulcans, so our dinner plans may inherently be irrational. Yes, I can use science to quantify decision making (with the binary assignment), but there's no empirical way to affirm the "right choice" for myself, in the moment, with empirical evidence. A good model of realism embraces a degree of irrational behaviors, because the human experience is full of them. There is a natural tension between logic and ethics, and science doesn't resolve that tension outright, thus it isn't a "one size fits all" model of realism. It is as though Pragmatic Empirical Rationalism takes a cold hard look at Idealism and says "fuck you, you analytic/synthetic bitch!" without looking in the mirror and seeing that science itself is full of analytic/synthetic distinctions, but just because they're empirical, they're somehow better? OK. Science is great for science, it's terrible at building and guarding worldviews and completing any given model of realism that accounts for the totality of the human experience (irrational behaviors, split decisions, what is best in life, etc.). Admit that PER is an incomplete model of realism, and move on. I'm not trying to play "gotcha," here. Constructive criticism is all part of a healthy discussion. Reject it or not, it makes no difference to me. A simple "thanks, those are some good points" could be equally as pragmatic and desirable, no?
Gordon Tubbs *but you need other principles to discuss other topics relevant to daily life.* Such as? What "other principles" could you possibly care about that extend beyond the act of making choices and dealing with the consequences? *We're humans after all, and not Vulcans, so our dinner plans may inherently be irrational* 1) I crave pizza (incorrigible) 2) Therefore, if I eat pizza, I will enjoy my dinner (empirical prediction based on prior experience given #1) 3). Therefore, if I want to enjoy my dinner, I should eat pizza (contrapositive #2) How was any of that "irrational?" *A good model of realism embraces a degree of irrational behaviors,* There is nothing irrational about sense experience and the resulting decisions that flow from them. It is only irrational when your decisions have no logical or empirical connection to that data. *There is a natural tension between logic and ethics* Says who? If your ethics are illogical, then maybe that's a subtle clue to fix your broken ethical system; not the other way around. *without looking in the mirror and seeing that science itself is full of analytic/synthetic distinctions,* Did you not even watch this video? I fully embraced the analytic/synthetic distinction. I went out of my way to explain this thing in great detail and give it a big, fat, sloppy blow job. Like, seriously man. Watch this video again, because I don't think you fully understand what I've been arguing.
You know, the common response I see you give is "watch the video again, you just don't understand it." Well, I've watched the video several times now, as well as many of your other videos. Either I'm a total idiot who doesn't deserve a response, or I'm just not "getting" whatever you're trying to argue. In either case, watching the video over and over isn't going to advance our discussion if I have a fundamental disagreement with you - it just may mean I'm struggling to articulate my criticisms well enough. For that I apologize. So, let me see if I can't boil them down to some simpler statements that you can answer directly and succinctly. >> I believe what you are arguing for is the superiority of an empirical epistemology over abstract epistemology when it comes to determining what truth is. (This may seem obvious, but I just want to make sure we're basically on the same page.) >> I believe that Pragmatic Empirical Rationalism can be used to justify true belief and practice of a hedonistic and egocentric life. >> I believe PER fails to address some of the more fundamental ideas that bind our society and culture together, such as Beauty, Justice, Music, Freedom, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Gordon Tubbs *Either I'm a total idiot who doesn't deserve a response, or I'm just not "getting" whatever you're trying to argue.* I'm sorry, but when I openly embrace the analytic/synthetic distinction as a central feature of basic epistemology, it really kind of irks me to see someone like yourself come out claim that I'm doing the exact opposite. I can only assume you either didn't pay attention or you just missed those parts. It's perfectly understandable, because this entire video is crazy dense with information. Even so, the only response I can really give you at this point is "please watch again." Otherwise, you're just arguing against straw men. So... now that you've watched the video again, did you notice the many parts where I proudly declare my undying love for the analytic/synthetic distinction? (okay, I'm exaggerating... but seriously, I did embrace the A/S thing at several points)
I'm wondering if you're working on a video about the synthetic/analytic distinction, it sounds right to me, but from what I've seen your defense of it is the 2/3 majority consensus of academic philosophers, a source of knowledge you seem to disavow to some extent. Additionally people usually mention a priori / a posteriori distinction for a full 2x2 box of possible kinds of statements, what od you make of that?
My “defense” about 2/3 majority is simply a response to the argument that I’m making some sort of fringe controversial statement. There is a massive trend in philosophy to disavow the A/S distinction as some kind of stupidly debunked thing to say, when really it is the de facto standard in mainstream philosophy and epistemology.
Fucking Love it! Been using a Pragmatist function to assign truth values to propositions for quite some time now, without even realizing it. I'm just finishing up my degree in astrophysics, and I really enjoyed the mathematical philosophy. You should make a video explaining it in more depth, or maybe actually using a somewhat realistic example in a pragmatists world view and boil down their thought process to assign truth to values using the math! Your crossing the road example was excellent, but something like that but perhaps more complicated, and then use the truth values to have some character make a decision.
I think it's fine to define truth for purposes of philosophical discussion as a linguistic/semantic property. However I don't think it can be categorically stated that truth is "not some intrinsic, metaphysical quality of reality itself" unless a basis for the charge can be made. Truth as a property of propositions is not what truth is, it's one of the things truth does. Truth as a metaphysical quality of reality itself on the other hand is an actual definition--maybe the only proper working definition--of what truth IS. Truth that inheres the essence of existents seems an actual explanation for why propositions are coherent, can correspond and are found to be useful (pragmatically speaking).
*Truth as a property of propositions is not what truth is, it's one of the things truth does.* Technically, a truth value is just a member of a binary set {T,F}. We then map propositions to that set, and we can only do so by defining rules for doing. That's the strictest, formal definition of truth in all of philosophical and mathematical logic. You are welcome to define other concepts of truth, but I can promise you right now that it will either be terribly flawed, inconsistent, or outright incomprehensible.
I don't think your promise of incomprehensibilty holds. On the other hand, every complex philosophical system is flawed. I agree with the idea of value as binary. This works wonderfully for positing a fundamentally true reality that is fragmentally falsified. Fragmental falsification can intuitively be recognized to pass from essence to material existence through choice, despite the fundamental p vs ~p problem. For example the choice to experiment with drugs often leads to physical addiction and the falsification of body and mind. The fact that we know intuitively to define rules for logical and rational discussion, that intellects (to varying degrees of efficiency) automatically recognize patterns, make plans, formulate useful scientific experiments, devise and abide by rules of law, recognize moral dilemmas, etc. are things we would do naturally if we were value-endued (T-F) beings operating in a value-endued universe. This view is not "incomprehensible", though your position--" If your rules follow anything significantly different, then your entire sense of epistemology is irrelevant and worthless to me"--suggests a closed mind and unwillingness bordering on inability to think outside your box. So be it, but shutting out anyone who fails to live up to or abide by one's epistemic standards traps one inside a pretty small world.
elmerfud551 *This view is not "incomprehensible", though your position--" If your rules follow anything significantly different, then your entire sense of epistemology is irrelevant and worthless to me"--suggests a closed mind and unwillingness bordering on inability to think outside your box.* By definition, any rejection of pragmatic measures for synthetic propositions is an outright admission of pure irrelevance. It means you have categorically detached your epistemology from any sense of action and consequence. I can therefore unilaterally accept your entire argument outright, and literally NOTHING in my life will functionally change as a result. I'm sorry if that sounds like "closed mindedness" to you, but I went out of my way to explain this to you in this very video. Since you have utterly failed to address this problem in any capacity, my point still stands and pragmatism wins.
"Utterly failed....in any capacity..." AntiCitizen places hands over ears and chants "nyah, nyah, nyah..." repeatedly as a defense against those who refuse to succumb to his dogma. So be it.
elmerfud551 I like how you accuse me of being closed-minded right after I explained my position to you and presented mu argument in its defense, while your immediate response was to ignore the thing entirely and pretend it never happened. I am getting awfully sick and tired of manipulative liars around here.
I think that although this view is basically very sound it misses at least one important detail. I am definitely an atheist who loves the scientific method so don't worry I don't think I will say anything too insane here. By science we can make accurate predictions about what will happen when we do a specific action, or when a specific event happens. That is all well and good but unless we have some reason to decide one outcome is objectively better than another we still have no way to decide how to act. For example, let's look at the example of crossing the street. We can deduce using science that certain methods of crossing will result in us making it to the other side safely. Others might cause us or someone else to get harmed or cause legal action or damage to property. It is obviously not hard to assign truth values in such a way that we will be able to see which result is which. But that does not help us unless we have a reason to prefer one future over another. All people basically agree on the axiom that "A future where I am unharmed is preferable to a future where I am harmed." This seems to be a very reasonable axiom, but it is not derived from any scientific observation. Infact, no amount of scientific observation can ever lead us to any statement of preferability unless we have a preview statement of preferability to build from. So to build a truth function that encourages outcomes that benefit humans it is necessary to give at least scientifically arbitrary statement a value of true. Otherwise all of our truth statements say nothing about morals and have nothing to say about what we should and should not do. So unless we take at least one axiom of preferability as true, all of pragmatism, and by extension science, fails to drive actions, and is therefore reduced to useless rhetorical gibberish. **Drops Mic** I do genuinely really like this video though, despite that little failure.
It doesn't matter whether or not you care about your future. By definition, if you behave in ways that take no interest in your safety, then it will not be very long before people like yourself simply disappear entirely and get replaced by those of us who do care. We therefore win, by default, no matter what you care to think, because that's just naturally what has to happen. It is also completely meaningless to "derive" a preference via axioms or rules of inference. They are propositions of subjective mental states, which renders them "true" by the principle of mental incorrigibility. You are welcome to guide your epistemology by some other maxim, and as I stated very clearly, any such maxim it is worthless and irrelevant by its own definition. I will therefore not care to employ it, and neither will anyone else who has a vested interest in planning a future without dying.
@@AntiCitizenX “I will therefore not care to employ it, and neither will anyone else who has a vested interest in planning a future without dying” Perhaps not the best choice of words there, since I hardly believe there are many people “planning a future without dying” That might seem snarky but this is actually an important point. Your “pragmatism” has no input on death-which is prudent as there can be no empirical claims about death since it is quite final. But without any such comment on death, how can we possibly categorize any actions as favorable or unfavorable in regards to safety? Naturally one might deduce from the actions of another that death is not favorable, especially to the family of the deceased, but that would not be an empirical deduction on death in regards of the deceased, since it is not you that is experiencing the death. “By definition, if you behave in ways that take no interest in your safety, then it will not be very long before people like yourself simply disappear entirely and get replaced by those of us who do care.” I would agree with this statement, but it still takes an axiom of preferability to care about survival in the end. What is grounding this axiom in which you care who is the dominant voice, or who survives? It surely isn’t empirical in nature, as we can’t know if it is pragmatic to survive without first experiencing death, and thus we don’t know if survival is favorable, and in turn, if social dominance really matters. Anyways, I would have to agree with @Jesse Slater, that this is a rather unfortunate hole in your logic :/
AntiCitizenX : at around 7:30 in your video you eliminate correspondence theory of truth do to epistemological difficulties in implementing it. specifically you say that correspondence theory of truth means that the claim "the moon is round" has the truth value "true" iff the moon is indeed round and then refer to this as a useless tautology. doesn't that ignore the distinction between propositions and the meaning of propositions in an unhelpful manner? at 9:00 you equate mental incorrigibility with empiricism as an epistemological system, but mental incorrigibility is a trusted aspect of many different empirical systems some of which cannot possibly be referred to as empiricism. axiomatic formalism is again an aspect of many different systems of epistemology, not all of which are rationalism. at roughly 11:50 you state that analytic propositions could be considered a subset of incorrigible ones, but isn't the reverse more likely? "honest statements about my own experience are true automatically" sounds like an axiom to me. at 17:15 you outline the "pragmatic process" but never explain why empirical collection of data has to be the first step. isn't it equally valid within pragmatism to collect your initial data from any source what so ever so long as the conclusions you come to are still tested for consistency with predicted outcomes? at 18:45 you declare that "pragmatic empirical rationalism," the system you outline as the only way to access objective reality, is just science. but science is limited to quantifiable mathematically describable phenomena, wouldn't this eliminate all discussion of value, justice, reason, or any other abstraction our society requires to survive? Occam's Razor is an incredibly powerful and oft misused tool. how do you think we ought measure assumptions? is "the scientific community is not wrong, therefore if I think they are wrong I either don't understand them or I am wrong about the world." one assumption or many? what about "this book was divinely inspired and any failures in predictability are therefore due to misinterpretation?" how do you suggest we tackle these real practical questions of implementing this essential aspect of pragmatism? at 20:40 you assert that a rejection of pragmatism would mean the proposed system was completely separated from all empirically predictive decisions. isn't that a rather bold and unfounded claim? wouldn't that necessitate that only pragmatism addresses practical activities or outcomes? why can't a system exists which incorporates pragmatism but also expands beyond the merely empirical prediction of the future into a description of reality qua reality?
*doesn't that ignore the distinction between propositions and the meaning of propositions in an unhelpful manner?* No, because it tells you nothing about how to determine whether or not "the moon is round" is a true proposition. *You equate mental incorrigibility with empiricism as an epistemological system, but mental incorrigibility is a trusted aspect of many different empirical systems some of which cannot possibly be referred to as empiricism.* There is no unifying school of thought over what exactly "empiricism" means, other than the fact that it has something to do with experience. Since mental incorrigibility is the most raw, distilled expression of experience there is, it makes sense to think of this as a form of empiricism. Also, you just flat-out contradicted yourself by describing "different empirical systems" that cannot possibly be referred to as empiricism. *axiomatic formalism is again an aspect of many different systems of epistemology, not all of which are rationalism.* Again, there is no unifying agreement over what exactly constitutes "rationalism," except for the principle that knowledge can be attained by thinking really hard about ideas. Since axioms and rules of inference all exist entirely "within our heads," so to speak, it again makes perfect sense to ascribe the label of rationalism to this system. For what it's worth, I hate it when people treat empiricism and rationalism as conflicting schools of thought. They are not in conflict. They just operate on different kinds of knowledge about the world. *isn't it equally valid within pragmatism to collect your initial data from any source what so ever so long as the conclusions you come to are still tested for consistency with predicted outcomes?* If you have some other source beyond experience by which to collect data about the world, I'd love to hear it. *you declare that "pragmatic empirical rationalism," the system you outline as the only way to access objective reality, is just science. but science is limited to quantifiable mathematically describable phenomena, wouldn't this eliminate all discussion of value, justice, reason, or any other abstraction our society requires to survive?* Value judgements are not objective features of the world. If society requires something like "justice" in order to survive, then it is perfectly feasible to express/justify that need within the pragmatic framework. *Occam's Razor is an incredibly powerful and oft misused tool. how do you think we ought measure assumptions?* By counting them and weighing their relative probabilities. *you assert that a rejection of pragmatism would mean the proposed system was completely separated from all empirically predictive decisions. isn't that a rather bold and unfounded claim?* No, because it is true by definition. By definition, any epistemology not grounded in the pragmatic framework has no bearing on actions and consequences. That's as close to "worthless" as you can get. *wouldn't that necessitate that only pragmatism addresses practical activities or outcomes? why can't a system exists which incorporates pragmatism but also expands beyond the merely empirical prediction of the future into a description of reality qua reality?* Because this isn't a hierarchy. Actions and consequences are all that matter at the end of the day, and there is literally nothing else you can show me that would magically "expand beyond" them.
@@AntiCitizenX: it doesn't give a method for discovering the truth because it is making a metaphysical claim not an epistemological one. Empiricism is an epistemological theory which claims that the only viable source of information is through empirical data from the senses. there are a lot of different ways people go about describing or implementing this basic premise but this is what empiricism means. I meant "epistemological system;" damn autocorrect. rationalism is the idea that the fundamental and most proper method for gaining knowledge is to directly engage the mind with the problem without the mediation of the senses. there are a plethora of theories about how to implement this overarching claim which all could be called rationalism but any theory which denied this claim could not be rightly referred to as rationalism. the metaphysical presuppositions of rationalism are in direct conflict with the metaphysical presuppositions of empiricism. the way you are using the words is not as epistemological theories but as generic methods of learning. epistemology is more than that. that said you are right to say that it is possible to craft an epistemological theory which utilizes both axiomatic formalism and mental incorrigibility into one epistemological theory, such a theory would not be a rationalist theory nor an empiricist theory, but it can be crafted. intuition, testimony, and axiomatic manipulation, are all non-empirical sources of information about the world. How? how can the pragmatic approach do any justice to the innumerable intangibles that human society has depended on from the beginning? also, where do you get the gall to say that value assessments are not valid understandings of objective reality. some value judgments are as close to purely subjective as possible, (I really like mint chocolate chip icecream) but others are clear objective facts about reality (sunsets are beautiful, human beings have inherent value, the unjustified killing of a fellow human is morally abhorrent). could you address my full question about Occam's Razor, I think you missed them point of the question. assumptions are not easily counted without a framework nor is probability easily measured without an established framework. and because things are complicated frameworks themselves inherently come with assumptions built into them. how do you think these difficulties ought be addressed? don't beg the question. I am claiming that the pragmatic framework as you have outlined it is not the only system which cares about outcomes, predictability, etc. you cannot simply respond, "I'm right by definition" when your definition of the pragmatic framework included a lot more than simply "learn what you can however you please and then test it in the world in what way you please and the consequences will be an indicator of the appropriate truth function to apply." you made explicit claims about possible sources of data and imposed constraints on the kind of data which will have importance in measuring consequences, these are claims which can be challenged without denying the central point that ones actions in the world along with their consequences should play a central role in assigning truth values. Actions and Consequences may be all that matter to you at the end of the day but there are innumerable individuals out there who care a great deal about reality qua reality, consequences be damned. almost every philosopher ever just to indicate a few. Additionally, the way in which you formulated pragmatism and its restrictions seems to be the philosophical equivalent of denying quantum mechanics because it is irrelevant in the vast majority of engineering discussions, which are what really matter at the end of the day, and no one can be entirely sure what's going on down at that scale anyway.
@@alexodom358 *It doesn't give a method for discovering the truth because it is making a metaphysical claim not an epistemological one.* Metaphysical or not, it's still a vapid tautology. *there are a lot of different ways people go about describing or implementing this basic premise but this is what empiricism means* I know. I agree completely. That's why I think mental incorrigibility is the purest distillation of empiricism there is. *rationalism is the idea that the fundamental and most proper method for gaining knowledge is to directly engage the mind with the problem without the mediation of the senses* That's one way to think of it. I prefer to tone it down a little and simply say that "some" types of knowledge can be obtained through purely mental processes, and that the only thing you would ever meaningfully arrive at accordingly is a bunch of glorified definitions. That's not to belittle rationalism. It's only to put rationalism in a proper place that actually makes sense and has coherent value. Otherwise, rationalism flies off the rails into coo-coo territory. *intuition, testimony, and axiomatic manipulation, are all non-empirical sources of information about the world* Intuition is not a source of information about the world. It's your brain's way of processing experiences without the direct use of language, which makes it a subtle form of empiricism. I also have no idea what you mean by "testimony" or how that could possibly tell you anything about objective reality. Lastly, axiomatic manipulation is nothing more than glorified word-play, and so it only tells you about language rather than objective reality (i.e., "the world"). So no, none of those things qualify. *How? how can the pragmatic approach do any justice to the innumerable intangibles that human society has depended on from the beginning?* I have no idea what you're even asking. I don't care about "doing justice to innumerable intangible." I only care whether or not my beliefs are capable of generating reliable, empirically predictive models of the world. You are more than welcome to mentally masturbate over innumerable intangibles all day. All I'm saying is that it literally makes no difference one way or the other if those intangibles have no power to influence actions and consequences. The distinction between "true" and "false" is therefore meaningless and irrelevant in such contexts, by your own admission. *you cannot simply respond, "I'm right by definition"* By definition, the pragmatic framework measures synthetic propositions in accordance with their capacity to generate reliable empirical predictions. Therefore, by definition, anything NOT concerned with actions or consequences is NOT pragmatic. Furthermore, by definition, anything not concerned with actions or consequences is philosophically irrelevant. Therefore, by definition, anything NOT pragmatic is irrelevant. Why is this so hard to grasp? I made this point very clear in the video: I could agree outright with all of your non-pragmatic conclusions, and literally NOTHING in my life would fundamentally change as a result. That is as close to pure, philosophical irrelevance as it is possible to get, and I can prove it using nothing but the definitions of those terms.
+Pasxali K Trust the scientific method because the scientific method trusts nothing. Of all the people in the world, the one who takes no one at their word is the hardest to fool. Science starts at a position of doubting everything and proceeds to give it all a chance to fail by conducting an endless series of experiments designed to force every idea to either live up to its promises or fail and be dismissed. "Do you use science to prove your science right?" No, science never proves anything right. All science does is give ideas a chance to fail by testing them. No amount of testing will prove an idea true, but false ideas will sometimes be revealed as false. "If no, why do you trust in the scientific method?" Because false ideas can only be revealed by testing them, so we do the scientific method to try to weed out the bad ideas from the good.
+Pasxali K *Do you use science to prove your science right?* "Science" is not a proposition and has no truth value. You can only "do science" or "not do science."
Clearly you're just repeating what some zealots told you to say without thinking about what you're saying. What makes it worse is the the video never claimed that science was a claim, and thus cannot be true or false. Think for yourself, don't be a sheep.
AntiCitizenX I disagree. That's like saying Math is no proposition and therefore is not true nor false, you can only "do maths" or "not do maths". But in reality everyone thinks he knows maths, because they "learned" it in school, yet still I hardly remember the last time all students in a class simultaneously wrote A grades in maths all the time, everywhere. So apparently math has to be learned first by other humans, then still some do it properly, and some do it wrong or poorly. Where does your science fit into this analogy? Is science always right aslong as you "just do it"? Sorry, but if you truely believe that you must have missed some lessons about scienctific history in your education. Science revises itself all the time. God on the other hand is said to reveal himself to the people (not by one particular religion, but by many), people dont have to "learn" god from other people necessarily, there are lots of testimonies of personal revelations and experiences. The fact that there are so many different religions is evidence of that, otherwise if it was only something people "told" other people we would only have one religion in this world, namely whichever spawned first. That is not the case. Poeple have different interpretations of god, because god is said to have revealed himself in different times to different people, who where isolated populations. In ancient times technology didn't allow and enable people to travel quickly neither was there ways of communication near realtime, like we have it today.
***** "Is science always right as long as you just do it?" Science is neither right nor wrong. Science is merely a technique to try to improve our understanding of the world. It provides no answers for you to evaluate as true or false. It is merely the practice of testing our ideas, and those ideas that survive our best tests earn the privilege of being trusted above other ideas. Using well-tested ideas has put people on the moon; that is the strength of science. "If it was only something people told other people we would only have one religion in this world, namely whichever spawned first." I think you underestimate people's ability to disagree with each other. Even if all the world had a single religion, people would quickly break off into their own sects that better reflect their tastes. Just think of how the Protestants split from the Catholics.
I love it! This is just the video I needed in my epistemological existentialism of recent, but since it hasn't been quenched despite being calmed, I question further: what about the philosophical problems science cannot solve? What do we answer them with? How do we know if those answers are proper or not?
@@thek2despot426 peace of mind People get paralyzed with regards to decisions or are forever plagued by certain things I don't need your answer anymore btw. Such things aren't meant for science by definition.
Just want to say I find myself needing to direct people to this video so often that I’ve actually made a keyboard shortcut on my phone to automatically paste a link here whenever I type “whatistruth”.
Possibly the most pragmatic definition of Pragmatism I've ever heard (in this context, I can't think of higher complement). I'd be curious to hear, what do you think of the "FoundHerentism" of Susan Haack?
As the name might suggest, it combines coherentism and foundationalism in such a way as their virtues eliminate their respective vices. I think it's clever, though (as your video points out), probably not as important as realizing that truth is knowledge that "pays it's way". Look forward to more!
Ok there is a section I got to where it say Beliefs drives actions, Actions have consequences, Consequences are Objective. This is hypothetical. But I believe and assert my propositional truth that I need your car and cash to get to my destination. I even caused bodily harm towards you.. What determines in your mind why there should be consequences for my actions?
What am I suppose to prove? If I see you and your car. And I believe I need your car and cash for survival reasons at that moment to satisfy my need; even to the point of causing bodily harm if you try to stop me. I am asserting my propostional truth that this action is good and right to satisfy me need. since there is no Objective Truth. I'm going in more detail. So my question is for you. Using your concept, What determines in your mind why there should be consequences for my actions if my action? Why do you say I have to prove any think it is my asserted propositional truth by defenition my judgement my opinion. Because there is no Objective Truth.
*What am I suppose to prove?* All you did was assert some proposition out of nothing. Specifically, "I believe and assert my propositional truth that I need your car and cash to get to my destination." That's not a proof of truth or a statement of fact. It was a bare assertion and nothing else. *I am asserting my propostional truth that this action is good and right to satisfy me need.* See? You're just asserting facts without evidence. Prove it. And while you're at it, please explain to me how this thought problem is relevant to the principle of truth assignment for synthetic propositions.
Well done Sir! Very comprehensive and available to share with my Christian friends! After they understand this video, all I have to do is ask "What predictions do the claims of Christianity make?" And then the debate is over!
Now this definition of truth has a problem. That it breaks the fundamental law of logic that's the law of non-contradiction. Now, why do I say that? Because there is no objective standard of practicality in the first place. For example we can take this sentence: “Atoms have electrons, protons and neutrons.” Now this sentence is practical for a scientist. But for me this sentence is impractical. Now I will say that sentence is true and false at the same time. Just because it's practical and impractical at the same time for different people? No! Because it will break the law of non-contradiction that a sentance can't be false and true at the same time. So, here for resolving that problem we have to remove the criteria of practicality here for calling it true and false without contradiction.
Even better philosophy "does it help me win videogames and puzzle-games?" Does me sitting their pondering about the Gods that run the Mushroom Kingdom enable me to solve the lore of the videogame or get Mario to the finish-line? No? Golly... that's useless
People should just, ya know....read the Pragmatists so they can understand what ACX is getting at. Start with Peirce, James, and Dewey then see what happens.
Biblical inerrancy also has another problem; it is internally inconsistent. For instance, Genesis 1's creation account contradicts that of Genesis 2. Even if we knew nothing about the creation of life and the universe, we must necessarily reject at least one of the biblical accounts. Internal inconsistencies literally disprove a model with 100% certainty.
Hi! So from what i have seen in this (amazing) video is that the objective part of science comes from the consequences and reliability? I am confused. It was my prior understanding that science wasn't certain and operated with confidence values (the more fundamental the science, the more accurate the value). But I fail to understand empiricism, and so fail to understand empirical evidence. Can you help?
Thanks for your question. Let me see if I can answer it. Objective does not mean certain. It just means independent of your opinions and desires. When you make a choice, consequences follow, and you cannot “debate” them. That’s the foundation in which science can claim objectivity, even if we still cannot “know” things with absolute perfection.
@@AntiCitizenX Thanks for the reply! So... something is objective when its causes are outside of our minds? So a rock would be considered a part of objective reality if it does not change when i think about it?
I don't think it's meant to mean anything in particular. It's just an illustration of how combinations of propositions (with truth values) can be assigned truth values of their own.
What charkopolis claimed is false because you won't learn anything new by reading a sentence over and over without recontextualization. Seek the sources and study them.
You might be laughing now, but just you wait until someone argues that the consequences are false and pain is just another stimulus that causes a mind-controlling spirit guardian to make their body do things that would, in their psychological understanding, minimise the chances and effects of pain and that is also false and just something to black out and meditate away while being totally awake
"Decisions based on true beliefs will manifest themselves in the form of controlled, predictable experiences..." Isn't this just a rehashing of phenomenalism? We can't really speak of doorknobs in themselves, but only what would happen if I seemed to see a doorknob and appeared to initiate a grasping motion, then reflect on the sense data that follows. Am I warm?
+AntiCitizenX Granted, but if that's the case, it seems you're still stuck with the problem that Ayer eventually abandoned, which is to translate our statements about material reality in terms of sense-data declarations, without sneaking material reality in through the back door. Yes, I know you're not actually disputing the existence of a material reality, only our knowledge of it. Still, if you're going to the skeptical problem, you'll still need an account of our everyday knowledge that's couched entirely in terms of sense-data. What do you have that Ayer didn't?
cellomon09 *What do you have that Ayer didn't?* Perhaps a willingness to just accept that I don't know everything with perfect certainty, and simply move on.
+AntiCitizenX "Perhaps a willingness to just accept that I don't know everything, and simply move on." So when your account of knowledge requires material statements like "here is an apple" to be translatable entirely in terms of sense-data, and no proposed method of doing so has been successful thus far, it's apparently rationally acceptable to shrug this off as an unreasonable demand for certainty? Sounds to me like this is a fairly relevant prediction which has failed to manifest.
cellomon09 *and no proposed method of doing so has been successful thus far,* I don't know what you're talking about. I spent a solid 22 minutes explaining exactly how to do that.
17:56 - it sounds like you're saying our model of objective reality used for pragmatic purposes is the objective reality. isn't that kinda contradictory? also, the patterns aren't predictable. the problem of induction messes with everything. likewise, cause and effect or "Actions and Consequences" are not real but something we apply to disconnected phenomena. And so, SCIENCE isn't a system of truth but a system of prediction powered by humanity's natural conservative bias of "what worked in the past will work in the future". idk im certainly rambling a bit here, but i feel like the second half of the video was a little mushy.
Is it false if thinking its true makes you better off? And what if that truth makes you worse but makes the people around you and your progeny better off?
@@AntiCitizenX Sometimes you can't. The highly controlled environments that experiments take place in are often far from the regular experience in everyday life. Please tell me if life being worth living can be tested empirically? Emotions and experience cannot always be empirically accounted for and that is a majority of human life
@Maximal This is something I have seen and I am well aware, but we shouldn't be so detached and dissociated that we cannot recognize there is such a thing as a preferable state of humanity. And that this state of well being lets say doesn't objectively exist. Although this is not to mandate the universal lifestyle, that is an argument of itself but it should be recognized there are objectively preferable conditions for individuals. We are not objects but living beings that have and live through emotive states and volition that have intentional states directed towards some end. Although I am not denying your point, it is just moot. Yeah, the universe gives us no moral code and that is completely irrelevant to the needs and desires we have innately.
When it comes to truth values informing actions and actions having consequences, I don’t actually need to conclude that the world outside my mind actually exists in order to conclude that I should behave a certain way. For instance I know that I have unpleasant experiences, such as pain, fear, and sadness, pleasant experiences such as excitement, happiness, and pleasure, and neutral experiences such as seeing and hearing regardless of whether or not the world outside my mind exists. It’s possible to conclude that I should behave in ways that I know are likely to have certain desired affects on those experiences without necessarily concluding that the world outside my mind exists. I can also conclude that the world outside my mind is a useful fiction that is unreasonably effective at predicting my experiences similar to how it’s sometimes argued that math is a useful fiction that is unreasonably effective at predicting how the world behaves.
How is it “useful fiction” to observe that actions have consequences, that those consequences are NOT determined by your whims, and that you are not immediately aware of the causal interactions that lead to them? That’s what we are talking about when we refer to the “external world.” It’s all the stuff beyond your immediate perception that appears to translate your actions into future consequences.
I disagree. Axioms are generalisations of empirically observed properties. That is why logic is so successful. It isn't just invented. It is abstracted.
+AntiCitizenX I am not sure that I can provide proof without devoting an huge amount of time and energy to researching the origins of logic. But, do you really believe that the rules of logic were set down arbitrarily by a fiat without empirical evidence for their validity? I suspect that Aristotle, for example, investigated propositions before laying down the rules of classical syllogistic logic. Boolean logic was inferred from aristotelian logic, re-expressed in terms of a newly invented logical algebra followed by an examination of what additional rules were needed for a consistent formalism, and followed by an investigation of how the rules could be relaxed or generalised. The knowledge that led to Euclid's geometry was crystallised from centuries of experience in construction, and Euclid (or some predecessor) abstracted the axioms of the geometry from the known established recipes. That is why Euclid was unhappy with the fifth axiom - because it dealt with things that could not be tested. Even modern mathematics, where mathematicians are eager to show their intelligence by inventing new self consistent sets of axioms on which to base new theories, has not been very successful in inventing a branch of mathematics where the axioms are simply laid down by a fiat. So, though I cannot offer you sufficient proof to establish my stated conviction, it seems inconsistent with what I know of the history of philosophy, logic and mathematics to assert otherwise. In my opinion, morality has also evolved in a similar way, based on ever refining experience rather than being invented by a fiat. Don't get the wrong impression - I am not dismissing your very valuable video, which I appreciate and enjoyed. I am merely venturing a contrary opinion on one small point.
Tullius Agrippa *But, do you really believe that the rules of logic were set down arbitrarily by a fiat without empirical evidence for their validity?* Yes. The rules of logic are nothing more than rules we impose into our language. There is nothing "valid" or "invalid" about them. They can only either facilitate communication of information or not. Since they certainly do seem to work really well at formally specifying useful rules in our language, we like them. There are also many other systems we could be using that AREN'T classical binary logic. We just don't seem to like them very much.
AntiCitizenX I really do not wish to argue with you, so I will say only this: The fact that the rules work means that they are empirically tested. This speaks against their invention by fiat, and makes it much more likely that those that first codified them did so by abstracting them from examination of good arguments vis-a-vis bad ones. That is the only justification for their adoption. It is true that there are other valid non-binary logics. They are more difficult to use, and most citizens, Y or Z, would not know how to use them validly. That is why they are not common except perhaps among those few citizens who programme washing machines and mathematicians. Anyhow, thanks for the video and thanks for taking the trouble to respond.
I need to ask for clarification on something, one of the examples that came up included this formula (A=B, B=C, C=A) I don't understand how this equation works. this appears to be in conflict with the law of identity, the first rule of the logical obsoletes. the logical obsoletes being 1) The Law of Identity: A is always equal to itself. 2) The Law of Non-contradiction : A can not be equal to not A 3) The Law of Inclusion: A stands in opposition to B only in the absence all other possibilities so, what is this formal (A=B, B=C, C=A) describing?
First off, there is no "law of identity" as you describe. That's a complete myth. Second, the formula you gave is called a rule of inference. It is a statement with the form "If X then Y." It is a rule that is used to generate new true propositions out of premises. It's a rule that governs our use of language. 1) The number of apples in my bucket is equal to the number of oranges in your box. 2) The number of oranges in your box is equal to the number of potatoes in your sack. 3) Therefore, the number of apples in my bucket is equal to the number of potatoes in your sack. That's how it works.
But you have to admit, no matter how much science advances, no one would argue we got to the point that science has left humanity with no need for philosophy
+The Ultimate Reductionist I thought I did. Maybe not in so many words, but there was a lot of information I needed to grind through. I'm sorry if I didn't address some specific nuance to your liking. I did a lot of back and forth writing on how much information was too much or too little. Some stuff inevitably didn't get emphasized as well as it could have.
There. I pretty much just solved all philosophy. You're welcome.
how can there be an epistemic barrier between our perception of reality and our linguistic framework for describing reality? isn't the linguistic framework a direct result of the perception itself?
+AntiCitizenX hello ACX, never heard of you before(to my dismay). one of the people i sub to liked your video here, so i checked it out. after going through some of your uploads... yup... earned a sub from me :p
philosophy has never been my strong point(but i am a pragmatist, thank you for giving me the proper term)
+AntiCitizenX Poor philosophers. They already have trouble finding something they can do and be paid for at the same time.
+AntiCitizenX "Truth is a label we assign to propositions" this is the best joke i've read this week.good job!
+Sam Levin Not really, because there are many tools of language like context dependent definitions and ambiguity that make it complicated.
As a scientist, I want to thank you for this very clear explanation of what science is and why we need it.
Hello, there! It's good to see you! :)
Scientists seem to believe that truth is what works (to quote William James), but what works is not necessarily the truth, and maybe much simpler to use. On a different tack... In logic, given true axioms, you can only get true results, but with false axioms, you can get anything you want. Why would you want to live in a universe that is only a subset of a meta-universe where anything is possible? I prefer to live in a larger universe where nothing, not even middles, are excluded.
Это одно из моих любимых видео всея Ютуба.
Вас тоже смотрю с удовольствием 😊
(Вообще я просто испытал приток какого-то неожиданного позитива, увидев комментарий от Вас, и понял, что не могу не отреагировать)
That ending was an implied mic drop if ever I've heard one. Brilliant!
+Martymer 81 Indeed. Cool to see your watch AntiCitizenX. I'm a recent subscriber to your channel. Great stuff you have over there.
+Martymer 81 thanks Marty! had you not liked the video, i would have never seen it. never heard of this guy before, but he friggin NAILED it :)
One of the best philosophy videos I've seen. Clear, concise and informative. 10/10.
I really like how you think. Having been involved in the new-age, hippie, pseudo-psychology comunity for several years during my education, i must say it is so refreshing to adopt this stance. Everything is clear, simpler and less stresfull, and most important, it works.
+Sinclairelim
That's exactly what I was going for!
+Sinclairelim I'm going to operate under the assumption that those people will say "well that's not what *truth* means". Post-modernist semantics games are annoying and impractical. A lot of the wishy-washy, hyper-ambiguous, "truth is subjective" types don't like science or pragmatism as an explanation of reality preferring instead to derogatorily call it "scientism" (as if a religion) and claim it's just as dogmatic as fundamentalist supernatural belief system.
+Sinclairelim Yeah, the more you ignore of philosophy the better off you are.
But this is pholosophy.
Sinclairelim Which pretty much threw out everything else out on the window.
At the end of the day, our evolved brains are essentially Bayesian engines assessing the probability of things being true based on prior experience and evaluation of new evidence coming through our sensory organs. That marvellous engine is sadly prone to many bugs though ...
+Sébastien Laberge
true. we didn't evolve to be correct or see things accurately, we evolved to survive by working together. that lets lots of bugs creep in.
no need to simplify as "bugs", on the way to finally find the Truth, we sometimes go a "not exactly right" direction, we can manage it afterwards, may be this or not this life. focus to unTruth (there is no false but unTruth, inside those we thought Truth) then all right will come.
true lots of microscopic "bugs" live on our faces
This is the crux. The random result of randomly evolved stardust, can never produce truth. All you have are chemicals and neurons. Who's to say who's chemicals and neurons are correct. This is the very definition of absurdity.
@@TheDeathInTheAir hahahahahaha
Man, I am a philosophy student and your explanation was more clear and usefull than most I have heard from my colegues. When I finish my undergrad, I wanna make a PhD in pragmatism epistemology (I'm very interested in empirical knowledge and the pragmatic aproach (Specially Peirce and Haack). I'll share your videos with my friends. (I am not fluent in english yet. So, I'm sorry if I wrote something wrong).
vinicius apolinario Thank you! I share your frustration with modern philosophy as well.
Excelente, amigo! Compartilhar esse tipo de informação útil é de imenso benefício pra todos nós :)
What is truth? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more...
lol
Isn't that "What is love?"? Coincidentally, also a point of contention among philosophers.
So... Tell me more about this..... Science.
+iggypopshot
It works. Bitches.
+AntiCitizenX
Ahh, I see... As always Nice vid man, and the Dawkins quote sealed the deal.
+iggypopshot
And evolution is a physical manifestation of this process. Among a myriad of propositions, for which only those whose consequences that are compatible with reality (and only reality at that particular time and place) continue with further explorations of variety among the details of it's original proposition. Life (or Nature or pick your anthropomorphism), it seems, is trying to figure out "the truth", herself.
Is it a coincidence that our evaluation and implementation of these processes to figure out the nature of our world are similar? Maybe. Or maybe I just need to pack another bowl.
009blush both is good with me, blush ;))
+iggypopshot Sup iggy. Haven't crossed paths with you in a long time. Good to see you.
Thank you for explaining the useful parts of philosophy and not mentioning the useless stuff.
That’s what I do! Thanks for noticing.
You are correct. Mathematical Logic is a TOOL we use to analyze nature, or an idea, or whatever. It is not some independent ultimate truth about reality.
IF something in reality behaves similar to something WE defined, then we can use OUR logic to make predictions about that something. If our prediction is way off, it's not that something is special---it's our logic that is flawed.
It's interesting that when people really put truth above all else and sacrifice it for nothing, they all arrive at exactly the same epistemology even without any of them influencing the other. I arrived at this epistemology before I watched King Crocoduck, and I watched him before I even heard about you. And yet, we all share precisely the same epistemology.
A wonderful Re-telling and clarification of one of his earlier videos. I always find that I got MORE out of his responding to peoples objections. He doesnt break too much new ground from the older video, but he does succinctly describe and defend his position. I particularly loved the.
"Beliefs Drive Actions
Actions have Consequences.
Consequences are Objective."
Couldnt say it better with 9 paragraphs, what he does in 9 words.
+TheAtheistChef "Consequences are Objective" How do we know this?
Well lets say we have a belief that I dont need to eat at all.
Belief: I Dont need to eat
Action: Not eating
Consequence: Starving to death
Its quite objective..
+TheAtheistChef You see, you only asserted that starving is the consequence of not eating, but how do you know that it's true? You've observed a correlation (between not eating and starving), but that's not causation, and it certainly doesn't prove that consequences are objective. I'm not saying you shouldn't eat, but we're talking about the truths of things. ;)
1. We see it all the time. We can empirically verify that not eating leads to death by starvation. All it takes to prove the " assertion" is observation.
But fine lets change the example.
Belief: Bullets fired at me wont hit me.
Action: I get someone to fire bullets at me.
Consequence: I get shot.
+TheAtheistChef "We can empirically verify" That's called verificationism, but there are other schools of thought, like fallibilism which this video briefly mentions. It goes deep, just look up the Münchhausen trilemma or the problem of induction, quite the rabbit hole.
Love your channel. Keep up the good work. :)
I am so glad i fell on this video thank you for existing and trying to save humanity from its self inflicted confusion. It's slowing us all down. Good thing people like you still exist.
+failsatpancakes
Thanks for watching!
How can it be slowing us down when we aren't going anywhere? We certainly won't be around forever, and when we are gone, the universe won't care. There is no end goal, and the only goals that exist are the temporary ones we assert. And there is no necessary reason why anybody else need comply with your temporary asserted goals, especially if those goals contradict their own. Why should I desire peace and equality when I am the emperor? The only truth is the violence of my assertion for my particular goals. The rest is Deus Vult, and I am my own god.
You covered this before in the Responding to Objections series. Nice up-date. You could just say, "Truth is what works, Science works, therefore Science is true!" Then mic drop, and walk off the stage. Love your work.
+Uriah Christensen
It really is an update. I'm glad you noticed that. My previous video used a lot of sloppy definitions and a had some faulty understanding of how all this stuff relates together.
Have you read anything by William James? Facts impose themselves on us, and we form a belief based off of them. Then the truth value of the belief is like the cash value of a bank note. If the belief is false, then the belief will not work, and has no usefulness. If the belief is true, then it will work, and is useful. So, Truth is something that happens to a belief upon action.
Uriah Christensen
Yes, a lot of James's work was very similar to my own line of thinking. He asked many of the same questions I did, and even arrived at very similar answers. I just hope I was able to express those ideas in a more modern context.
I really liked this, as well as the previous one. The previous one is actually what got me looking into James, Pierce, and Dewey. I find that Pragmatism is the only reliable way that I can see to assign truth values to my beliefs about the phenomena I experience. If one is trying to correspond a proposition to some noumena when all we have is phenomena, then the correspondence theory is stuck in an epistemological dilemma.
Awesome video. I always come back to your channel for clarifications like these.
I could not help but picture Sye Ten Bruggencate standing in front of 'The Thinker' and saying "How can you know that?"
This video convinced me that subscribing to this channel was a worthwhile decision. And I've only seen one other video of yours before, the one on omnipotence. Excellent work.
Thanks for sharing the script. Makes it MUCH easier to follow along and deeply reflect on the content.
I really really like this. After watching too many videos about philosophy I start to feel like I know less after doing so. So many philosophers seem to want to turn everything into goo. Nothing is solid, nothing is real. I've even heard about people who literally believe the world is illusory. I wonder how they cross the street.
Or *why* they cross it.
Fair Witness lol
18:32 This pretty much the conclusion I came to when I was talking intro philosophy. Though, I couldn't articulate it as well as you did in your video.
AntiCitizenX is among the best educational content producers on youtube. Thanks for another great video!
+Nathan Wood
Thanks for watching!
That's it. That's where the rubber meets the road, both literally and figuratively. Go argue materialism with a fast moving Mack Truck.
16:54 «I have yet to encounter a single philosopher who could successfully argue with a speeding bus»
Dat's ork filosofy fo' ya' >:D
so I listen to hours of philosophy almost every day. this video is the best I've ever heard on theories of truth and their usefulness. I'm spreading this video and subscribing.
Thanks!
"Pragmatism is the ultimate measure of all philosophical truths"
Pragmatism is a belief system, with assumptions, thus it can only measure truth within that framework. You simply stated your position (one I sympathize with ), but you haven't "solved" anything, philosophy is not that easy. Unless you define philosophy as pragmatism, but then it's just a tautology.
Anticitizenx, you should really reply to this.
Just saw this. I think ACX should have gone into an explanation of what Metaphysics would be like after we accept pragmatism. As a fellow Neoclassical pragmatist, I believe he should have went with Dewey's and James' understanding of a system in line with immediate empiricism. It's a postulate where metaphysics becomes about the generic traits of existences present within actual experience as such.
Now this definition of truth has a problem. That it breaks the fundamental law of logic that's the law of non-contradiction. Now, why do I say that? Because there is no objective standard of practicality in the first place. For example we can take this sentence:
“Atoms have electrons, protons and neutrons.”
Now this sentence is practical for a scientist. But for me this sentence is impractical. Now I will say that sentence is true and false at the same time. Just because it's practical and impractical at the same time for different people? No! Because it will break the law of non-contradiction that a statement can't be false and true at the same time. So, here for resolving that problem we have to remove the criteria practicality here for calling it true and false without contradiction.
This channel is a masterpiece and very much underrated
Thank you!
He's back! Thank my nonexistent god!
My nonexistent god is better than yours because reasons!
I define AntiCitizenX
as God, so god dose exist, hes right here hosting this channel
3:06 actually there is a third one "the question is improperly phrased or can be interpreted differently to have different answers"
He addresses this indirectly at 4:23
I really appreciate this channel.
Yay!!! I was worried you weren't doing any more videos. Thanks for the new one! :)
May 1000 Velociraptors descend upon those who dislike your videos. LOL
Wow, thank you for this very clear explanation of "truth".... which I will forget in 2 days. But no worry, I've bookmarked it, and I probably will come back many a time !
What philosopher is this Chewbacca guy?
- Hey, let's discuss truth!
- Ok! To be fair, first let's get rid of all assumptions and start from the ground up!
- Right!
- ...
- ...
- squirrel squirrel.
- fladgibommmm ...BAPHUSTA!
Jesus hates ponies is true. It's vaccuosly true.
+The Realistic Nihilist
lol... you're actually right about that!
+The Realistic Nihilist
If the statement were "Jesus of the bible" then yes, I would agree. Perhaps, this Jesus is someone AntiCitizenX met a year ago, and was told he hated ponies outright. Yay for linguistic ambiguity!
@@charkopolis well, thing is, dont were have a bit of responsibility to understand people right? if we just say
"yay linguistic ambiguity" I could literally argue that my cat is a dog and you would not be able to do a darn thing about it.
yes it dose suck that all rellvent information of words cant be contained inside the words themself, but thats kind of
the problem with this world.
who k@@KeimoKissaows, Yay for linguistic ambiguity!
@@MouseGoat can I meet your cat named "a dog"?
10:00 That is not true. Equality has a definition in axiomatic set theory (x = y is defined as: for all z, z being a member of x is equivalent to z being a member of y). And transitivity follows from that definition.
It's also a Peano axiom and therefore true by rote say-so within that framework.
Absolutely feckin' awesome. Now... cue the comments from the outraged fuckers who think that sitting around on your arse expelling flatulence from your ears is a valid a valuable tool for allowing us to understand and manipulate _physical_ reality.
+TheLivingDinosaur
I was hoping you'd respond with something like this. That always makes my day!
Well, based on the comment section, there are some non-trivial problems with pragmatism like determining non-practical truths, such as beauty.
No there's not. Who cares about whatever the fuck beauty is. Contemplating that is a waste of time. Especialy in this post Snuggie world.
This is the long form version of Dawkins's "Science. It works, bitches."
Finally found a fellow pragmatist!
Truth and reality will never be the same.
I think you're putting correspondence theory to a higher standard than it deserves. The definition of truth is not in itself an epistemology and it doesn't need to be. What truth is and how we go about determining it are two separate questions. I think when we claim something is true, what we mean is this: "truth is that which corresponds to the version of reality I experience, assuming that the reality I experience corresponds to objective reality." With that assumption made, the definition becomes less vacuous.
A question on axiomatic formalism. A common definition of knowledge is justified true belief (JTB). A common objection to JTB is the gettier problem, to which I tend to be inclined to modify the definition of knowledge to JTB, where the justification is also a JTB. For instance, you might see a jumping man next to you who looks like Johnny Depp and think, "I know that Johnny Depp is jumping", where the justification is composed of 2 propositions: the person next to you is Johnny Depp, and the person next to you is jumping. If Johnny Depp is actually miles away but coincidentally jumping, you would still have a JTB, but the justification would not be a JTB, so that's why it doesn't seem to be knowledge. The problem with this is you must show that every subsequent justification is a JTB, and eventually you fall upon axiomatic statements. I don't think this solved the problem of skepticism, however.
A = A, to be known, would require a justification. I suspect many would say "A=A because the definition of A is A", which would imply the following principle: "If the definition of A is A, then A=A". But of course any skeptic would then ask, "how do you know that if the definition of A is A, A=A?" Even avoiding the problem of the reliability of our senses, we're still going to have to justify claims that we have no choice but to presuppose. So is knowledge of our world possible, even if our senses can be perfectly trusted?
I also don't think pragmatism solves epistemology, at least not in the sense you seem to think it does. Even if you acknowledge that you can't prove the correspondence of your experience to objective reality, you still have to deal with the skepticism of other assumptions science makes. For instance, the gravitational constant = 6.67408 × 10^-11. Who's to say that 5 seconds from now it won't equal 6.67408 * 10^-5? Science has to presuppose several things, such as the consistency of the laws of nature, the principle that all events have some cause, and of course that observations can be used as data to model reality. Even worse, if you can trust that the laws of nature are guaranteed to remain constant, everything has a cause of some sort, and your senses are reliable, how do you know that your cognitive faculties that you use to come to conclusions based on your perceptions can be trusted? It's true, I'll avoid a bus if I see it, but that's because I am conditioned to do so. If someone were to continue asking me why it's wise to avoid a bus, I would eventually run out of answers.
A very nice find. Seems to nicely package my direction / conclusions.
Yeah, science!
Hahaha
Thank you for making this thought-provoking video. I had found a lot of things in philosophy very confusing, but late in the video, especially when you mentioned pragmatism and how a question of the number of angels on a pin is irrelevant, I felt relieved. I remember hearing about philosophies that were difficult to understand, and I admit that while I have an interest in philosophy, it's off-putting when it becomes difficult to understand.
One thing that also came to mind about this was the culture of political correctness and identity politics in today's society. It can become so confusing, to say the least
does this mean ignorance is bliss so long as it cant become in-covenant ?
i dont know is all i feel left with help ? or is there non
Also dose this mean only testable beliefs that interact with other testable beliefs may as well be used so long as they work or are convent or am i getting this wrong ?
I love this video so, so much.
I still come back from time to time to watch this video
It’s one of my best!
@@AntiCitizenX it's funny, because my interests, as well as many of my opinions have changed over the last years, but this is something I just can't get over with. Any discussion about anything is meaningless without a good understanding of truth.
The real question should be: what is Shrek
when is shrek?
"The pragmatic scientific method therefore is the measure of all philosophical truth." That's a bit of a broad stroke. What about mathematical truth? Metaphysical insights? Sensory perception (the state of consciousness itself)? Historical epistemology? Legal judgments? The latter two cases don't apply science science rigorious theorization and experimentation is impossible but I can understand that that's a minor issue.
*What about mathematical truth?*
We covered that. It is encompassed by science.
*Metaphysical insights?*
Meaningless gibberish.
*Sensory perception*
We already covered that. You're asking questions that were dealt with in great detail.
*Historical epistemology?*
Pragmatic scientific method.
*Legal judgments?*
Irrelevant to the fundamentals of epistemology.
Thanks for the reaction! I don't often have channel owners commenting on a video 2 years old (let alone on the same day). I think what you write is mostly true, but if and only if you assume that science is any form of pragmatic knowledge gathering, as opposed to the methodology of theoretization and experimentation (mostly reserved for physics, biology, chemistry and suchlike). Mathematics isn't acknowledged as a scientific field; you don't use science to prove theorems (and besides, I don't think mathematicians are all that pragmatical - without applications or practical consequences in mind).
As for metaphysics, I was hoping for a more sophisticated answer. All physics ultimately rest on metaphysics. You can't talk about "force" without conceptualizing it. The law of causation? I'd count that as metaphysics. But I understand it if you'd call all of this simple, not-so-interesting postulates, upon which science - the interesting stuff - is built (at this point, metaphysics, physics and mathematics kind of fuse into one). Still this field of "postulates" is probably richer than one might consider - almost every word can be elaborated on. Also I can see how you are right to call questions like "just what is matter" asked 2000 years ago a bunch of mumbo jumbo, as recent quantum physics and general relativity have been shaking our ideas on nature in ways nobody could have predicted. In any case, these theories were untestable and philosophers of nature would have been better off doing science (if they knew what it was). Sorry, I'm rambling.
(Speaking of quantum physics, what's your stance on the truth of the various interpretations - or formalisms - of it? Many histories, probabilistic, Copenhagen... is there truth to any one in specific, or is it nothing but mathematical equivalence and thus pointless to ponder over? If the latter, does that imply that you believe none of these can ever be disproven? Honest questions.)
The reason I brought up consciousness in specific is because you can't prove consciousness. You can measure brain activity, and make conclusions by drawing analogy with your own sensory experience, but ultimately you won't know that there is someone "in there", thus giving rise to the problem of the philosophical zombie. I guess "science" is as close as you can get, beyond personal experience of course.
As for the last two, that's exactly what I meant with the definition of science. History definitely isn't science according to any conventional definition, for reasons already given. It is still pragmatic however, which is why I was reluctant to bring them up in the first place.
@@orktv4673 *Mathematics isn't acknowledged as a scientific field*
No, but it is definitely a critical aspect of the scientific process.
*As for metaphysics, I was hoping for a more sophisticated answer.*
I was dead serious when I said "meaningless gibberish." Metaphysics is a buzzword used by pseudo-intellectuals to sound smart without saying anything coherent. The very definition of that word is not even agreed upon by philosophers.
*Speaking of quantum physics*
Many worlds.
*The reason I brought up consciousness in specific is because you can't prove consciousness.*
Define consciousness and explain it in terms of empirically predictive models. Then we'll talk.
*History definitely isn't science according to any conventional definition*
Historical method is very much justified in accordance with pragmatic scientific methods, but that is a very long and complicated issue.
@@AntiCitizenX "No, but it is definitely a critical aspect of the scientific process."
Of course it is. You use mathematics to understand nature. But it's exactly for that reason that we consider them different. Mathematics defines things as true (axioms) and derives new truths through established rules; mathematical truths that are 100% certain. Physics's truths can never be assured with perfect certainty. Therefore they are fundamentally different and I don't see how we are not seeing eye to eye about this.
"I was dead serious when I said "meaningless gibberish."" I am sure you were. Let's not get caught up in broad terms that we disagree with; I'll give three cases that I would consider having to do with truths that can't be established through rigourous observation:
1. Cogito ergo sum. It is an absolute fact that I exist, and it is for you an absolute fact that you exist. And it's not an empirical observation; existence is a necessity for sensing, thinking and observing. There is no doubt.
2. Falsifiability. Is this not a case in and of itself? You explained it yourself in this very video. The notion that a theory (in the broadest sense) can never be confirmed but only be disproven is a conclusion derived from the _concept_ of observation, not from any particular observation. And this holds true for all of philosophy of science.
3. Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I thought I'd illustrate my point with an actual metaphysical work (this is what Kant called it). Would you call this work of titanic importance to philosophical development "gibberish"? Pull no punches if you actually would. I'm just a humble theoretical phycisist, and I've tried to read Kant, and I found it quite impenetrable; I'm really trying to see just how far you go in this. His conclusions aren't the interesting thing, if any of his work is "valid" (i.e. it has any epistemological merit), I'm satisfied.
@@orktv4673
*You use mathematics to understand nature. But it's exactly for that reason that we consider them different.*
So? Am I supposed to disagree with this? It's like you didn't actually watch the video.
*Physics's truths can never be assured with perfect certainty. Therefore they are fundamentally different and I don't see how we are not seeing eye to eye about this.*
I never once said or implied otherwise.
You ended the video with: "So unless your truth assignment can somehow facilitate my desire to solve actual problems and reliably predict the outcomes of my actions, then by definition and admission it is irrelevant and worthless. Pragmatic Scientific Method therefore is the ultimate measure of ALL philosophical truth." Any time somebody says "all" and "truth" and "ultimate" in the same sentence, my skepticism signals an alarm in my mind. I hope it does for you too.
While I agree that pragmatic empirical rationalism (PER) is a solid epistemology, it strikes me as a wee bit egocentric and subjective. As philosophers, we should be pursuing models of realism that are "one size fits all" not "this size fits me, fuck you if you think otherwise." It's entirely possible somebody could pragmatically, empirically, and rationally decide something is true, when it could objectively be false, and they go about living their lives normally because they had a desirable outcome. You're equating beliefs and decisions with desirability, which is prone to cognitive biases.
I completely understand that the cognitive-behavioral distinction is necessary, but the Principle of Consistency is way more important that the Criterion of Falsifiability when it comes to pragmatism, and was worth mentioning in this video. If something is consistently true, then it will always be true irregardless of time and place. This separates the boys (pursuit of provisional beliefs that result in egocentrically desirable outcomes), from the men (pursuit of consistent beliefs that result in desirable outcomes for all).
I think if we want to marry epistemology with ethics (which is what I think you're trying to do), then we cannot absolve ourselves from cognitive biases. If you invoke falsifiability as your only arbiter of what can be a potentially true or false, then your epistemology defaults to a single heuristic process, and you'll have no way of measuring non-empirical claims. Particularly, discussions about morality, beauty, justice, existentialism, causality, contingency, meaning, or freedom are abstract in nature and make no predictive claims that can be empirically falsified. With PER, it seems awfully easy to justify true beliefs ex post facto according to whatever preference for a desired outcome you had to begin with.
But hey, every philosophy has problems at the end of the day. So, fuck it.
*If you invoke falsifiability as your only arbiter of what can be a potentially true or false, then your epistemology defaults to a single heuristic process, and you'll have no way of measuring non-empirical claims.*
At what point did I ever invoke falsifiablity as my ONLY arbiter of true and false? I specifically went out of my way to list many other perfectly valid truth assignment functions within the realm of analytic propositions.
*As philosophers, we should be pursuing models of realism that are "one size fits all" not "this size fits me, fuck you if you think otherwise."*
Except science is exactly the "one size fits all" you're asking for. It is physically impossible to live your life without science, because any attempt to do so would only result in getting run over by a bus. You're also perfectly welcome to offer up some other system of truth assignment for synthetic propositions, and I again listed plenty of viable candidates. The only problem is that any such function is immediately worthless and irrelevant, by definition. I can concede your entire epistemology outright, and literally nothing in my life will be different as a result. At best, the only philosophical difference you will have made at the end of the day is the arbitrary mapping of some meaningless bunch of propositions to some binary set. Whooptie fucking do. So it's not just me that doesn't care about your alternative truth assignments, but literally everyone else on the planet, including yourself.
The final segment beginning at 19:19 with the related discussion on fallibism and falsifiability is great for science and the scientific method, but you need other principles to discuss other topics relevant to daily life. This video lacks said principles, and so I can only judge it on the merits of what was said, not what wasn't said. Feel free to send me an essay or make another video that flushes out the cognitive-behavioral gap a bit further if you like.
What I'm getting at is decisions like "what should I eat for dinner?" to an extent involve some degree of irrationality (such as what you feel like eating), that are difficult to predict. The problem has multiple solutions, which could all be desirable. We're humans after all, and not Vulcans, so our dinner plans may inherently be irrational. Yes, I can use science to quantify decision making (with the binary assignment), but there's no empirical way to affirm the "right choice" for myself, in the moment, with empirical evidence.
A good model of realism embraces a degree of irrational behaviors, because the human experience is full of them. There is a natural tension between logic and ethics, and science doesn't resolve that tension outright, thus it isn't a "one size fits all" model of realism. It is as though Pragmatic Empirical Rationalism takes a cold hard look at Idealism and says "fuck you, you analytic/synthetic bitch!" without looking in the mirror and seeing that science itself is full of analytic/synthetic distinctions, but just because they're empirical, they're somehow better? OK. Science is great for science, it's terrible at building and guarding worldviews and completing any given model of realism that accounts for the totality of the human experience (irrational behaviors, split decisions, what is best in life, etc.).
Admit that PER is an incomplete model of realism, and move on. I'm not trying to play "gotcha," here. Constructive criticism is all part of a healthy discussion. Reject it or not, it makes no difference to me. A simple "thanks, those are some good points" could be equally as pragmatic and desirable, no?
Gordon Tubbs
*but you need other principles to discuss other topics relevant to daily life.*
Such as? What "other principles" could you possibly care about that extend beyond the act of making choices and dealing with the consequences?
*We're humans after all, and not Vulcans, so our dinner plans may inherently be irrational*
1) I crave pizza (incorrigible)
2) Therefore, if I eat pizza, I will enjoy my dinner (empirical prediction based on prior experience given #1)
3). Therefore, if I want to enjoy my dinner, I should eat pizza (contrapositive #2)
How was any of that "irrational?"
*A good model of realism embraces a degree of irrational behaviors,*
There is nothing irrational about sense experience and the resulting decisions that flow from them. It is only irrational when your decisions have no logical or empirical connection to that data.
*There is a natural tension between logic and ethics*
Says who? If your ethics are illogical, then maybe that's a subtle clue to fix your broken ethical system; not the other way around.
*without looking in the mirror and seeing that science itself is full of analytic/synthetic distinctions,*
Did you not even watch this video? I fully embraced the analytic/synthetic distinction. I went out of my way to explain this thing in great detail and give it a big, fat, sloppy blow job.
Like, seriously man. Watch this video again, because I don't think you fully understand what I've been arguing.
You know, the common response I see you give is "watch the video again, you just don't understand it." Well, I've watched the video several times now, as well as many of your other videos. Either I'm a total idiot who doesn't deserve a response, or I'm just not "getting" whatever you're trying to argue. In either case, watching the video over and over isn't going to advance our discussion if I have a fundamental disagreement with you - it just may mean I'm struggling to articulate my criticisms well enough. For that I apologize. So, let me see if I can't boil them down to some simpler statements that you can answer directly and succinctly.
>> I believe what you are arguing for is the superiority of an empirical epistemology over abstract epistemology when it comes to determining what truth is. (This may seem obvious, but I just want to make sure we're basically on the same page.)
>> I believe that Pragmatic Empirical Rationalism can be used to justify true belief and practice of a hedonistic and egocentric life.
>> I believe PER fails to address some of the more fundamental ideas that bind our society and culture together, such as Beauty, Justice, Music, Freedom, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Gordon Tubbs
*Either I'm a total idiot who doesn't deserve a response, or I'm just not "getting" whatever you're trying to argue.*
I'm sorry, but when I openly embrace the analytic/synthetic distinction as a central feature of basic epistemology, it really kind of irks me to see someone like yourself come out claim that I'm doing the exact opposite. I can only assume you either didn't pay attention or you just missed those parts. It's perfectly understandable, because this entire video is crazy dense with information. Even so, the only response I can really give you at this point is "please watch again." Otherwise, you're just arguing against straw men.
So... now that you've watched the video again, did you notice the many parts where I proudly declare my undying love for the analytic/synthetic distinction? (okay, I'm exaggerating... but seriously, I did embrace the A/S thing at several points)
I'm wondering if you're working on a video about the synthetic/analytic distinction, it sounds right to me, but from what I've seen your defense of it is the 2/3 majority consensus of academic philosophers, a source of knowledge you seem to disavow to some extent.
Additionally people usually mention a priori / a posteriori distinction for a full 2x2 box of possible kinds of statements, what od you make of that?
My “defense” about 2/3 majority is simply a response to the argument that I’m making some sort of fringe controversial statement. There is a massive trend in philosophy to disavow the A/S distinction as some kind of stupidly debunked thing to say, when really it is the de facto standard in mainstream philosophy and epistemology.
Fucking Love it! Been using a Pragmatist function to assign truth values to propositions for quite some time now, without even realizing it.
I'm just finishing up my degree in astrophysics, and I really enjoyed the mathematical philosophy. You should make a video explaining it in more depth, or maybe actually using a somewhat realistic example in a pragmatists world view and boil down their thought process to assign truth to values using the math!
Your crossing the road example was excellent, but something like that but perhaps more complicated, and then use the truth values to have some character make a decision.
I really like all of your content , but this is by far your best video in imo
Thanks
+stefan klisarov
Thanks for watching!
I think it's fine to define truth for purposes of philosophical discussion as a linguistic/semantic property. However I don't think it can be categorically stated that truth is "not some intrinsic, metaphysical quality of reality itself" unless a basis for the charge can be made. Truth as a property of propositions is not what truth is, it's one of the things truth does. Truth as a metaphysical quality of reality itself on the other hand is an actual definition--maybe the only proper working definition--of what truth IS. Truth that inheres the essence of existents seems an actual explanation for why propositions are coherent, can correspond and are found to be useful (pragmatically speaking).
*Truth as a property of propositions is not what truth is, it's one of the things truth does.*
Technically, a truth value is just a member of a binary set {T,F}. We then map propositions to that set, and we can only do so by defining rules for doing. That's the strictest, formal definition of truth in all of philosophical and mathematical logic. You are welcome to define other concepts of truth, but I can promise you right now that it will either be terribly flawed, inconsistent, or outright incomprehensible.
I don't think your promise of incomprehensibilty holds. On the other hand, every complex philosophical system is flawed. I agree with the idea of value as binary. This works wonderfully for positing a fundamentally true reality that is fragmentally falsified. Fragmental falsification can intuitively be recognized to pass from essence to material existence through choice, despite the fundamental p vs ~p problem. For example the choice to experiment with drugs often leads to physical addiction and the falsification of body and mind. The fact that we know intuitively to define rules for logical and rational discussion, that intellects (to varying degrees of efficiency) automatically recognize patterns, make plans, formulate useful scientific experiments, devise and abide by rules of law, recognize moral dilemmas, etc. are things we would do naturally if we were value-endued (T-F) beings operating in a value-endued universe. This view is not "incomprehensible", though your position--" If your rules follow anything significantly different, then your entire sense of epistemology is irrelevant and worthless to me"--suggests a closed mind and unwillingness bordering on inability to think outside your box. So be it, but shutting out anyone who fails to live up to or abide by one's epistemic standards traps one inside a pretty small world.
elmerfud551
*This view is not "incomprehensible", though your position--" If your rules follow anything significantly different, then your entire sense of epistemology is irrelevant and worthless to me"--suggests a closed mind and unwillingness bordering on inability to think outside your box.*
By definition, any rejection of pragmatic measures for synthetic propositions is an outright admission of pure irrelevance. It means you have categorically detached your epistemology from any sense of action and consequence. I can therefore unilaterally accept your entire argument outright, and literally NOTHING in my life will functionally change as a result. I'm sorry if that sounds like "closed mindedness" to you, but I went out of my way to explain this to you in this very video. Since you have utterly failed to address this problem in any capacity, my point still stands and pragmatism wins.
"Utterly failed....in any capacity..." AntiCitizen places hands over ears and chants "nyah, nyah, nyah..." repeatedly as a defense against those who refuse to succumb to his dogma. So be it.
elmerfud551
I like how you accuse me of being closed-minded right after I explained my position to you and presented mu argument in its defense, while your immediate response was to ignore the thing entirely and pretend it never happened.
I am getting awfully sick and tired of manipulative liars around here.
That was the greatest 20 minutes of my life. Thank you, AntiCitizenX.
I think that although this view is basically very sound it misses at least one important detail.
I am definitely an atheist who loves the scientific method so don't worry I don't think I will say anything too insane here.
By science we can make accurate predictions about what will happen when we do a specific action, or when a specific event happens. That is all well and good but unless we have some reason to decide one outcome is objectively better than another we still have no way to decide how to act.
For example, let's look at the example of crossing the street. We can deduce using science that certain methods of crossing will result in us making it to the other side safely. Others might cause us or someone else to get harmed or cause legal action or damage to property.
It is obviously not hard to assign truth values in such a way that we will be able to see which result is which. But that does not help us unless we have a reason to prefer one future over another.
All people basically agree on the axiom that "A future where I am unharmed is preferable to a future where I am harmed."
This seems to be a very reasonable axiom, but it is not derived from any scientific observation. Infact, no amount of scientific observation can ever lead us to any statement of preferability unless we have a preview statement of preferability to build from.
So to build a truth function that encourages outcomes that benefit humans it is necessary to give at least scientifically arbitrary statement a value of true. Otherwise all of our truth statements say nothing about morals and have nothing to say about what we should and should not do.
So unless we take at least one axiom of preferability as true, all of pragmatism, and by extension science, fails to drive actions, and is therefore reduced to useless rhetorical gibberish.
**Drops Mic**
I do genuinely really like this video though, despite that little failure.
It doesn't matter whether or not you care about your future. By definition, if you behave in ways that take no interest in your safety, then it will not be very long before people like yourself simply disappear entirely and get replaced by those of us who do care. We therefore win, by default, no matter what you care to think, because that's just naturally what has to happen.
It is also completely meaningless to "derive" a preference via axioms or rules of inference. They are propositions of subjective mental states, which renders them "true" by the principle of mental incorrigibility. You are welcome to guide your epistemology by some other maxim, and as I stated very clearly, any such maxim it is worthless and irrelevant by its own definition. I will therefore not care to employ it, and neither will anyone else who has a vested interest in planning a future without dying.
@@AntiCitizenX “I will therefore not care to employ it, and neither will anyone else who has a vested interest in planning a future without dying”
Perhaps not the best choice of words there, since I hardly believe there are many people “planning a future without dying”
That might seem snarky but this is actually an important point. Your “pragmatism” has no input on death-which is prudent as there can be no empirical claims about death since it is quite final. But without any such comment on death, how can we possibly categorize any actions as favorable or unfavorable in regards to safety? Naturally one might deduce from the actions of another that death is not favorable, especially to the family of the deceased, but that would not be an empirical deduction on death in regards of the deceased, since it is not you that is experiencing the death.
“By definition, if you behave in ways that take no interest in your safety, then it will not be very long before people like yourself simply disappear entirely and get replaced by those of us who do care.”
I would agree with this statement, but it still takes an axiom of preferability to care about survival in the end. What is grounding this axiom in which you care who is the dominant voice, or who survives? It surely isn’t empirical in nature, as we can’t know if it is pragmatic to survive without first experiencing death, and thus we don’t know if survival is favorable, and in turn, if social dominance really matters.
Anyways, I would have to agree with @Jesse Slater, that this is a rather unfortunate hole in your logic :/
AntiCitizenX : at around 7:30 in your video you eliminate correspondence theory of truth do to epistemological difficulties in implementing it. specifically you say that correspondence theory of truth means that the claim "the moon is round" has the truth value "true" iff the moon is indeed round and then refer to this as a useless tautology. doesn't that ignore the distinction between propositions and the meaning of propositions in an unhelpful manner?
at 9:00 you equate mental incorrigibility with empiricism as an epistemological system, but mental incorrigibility is a trusted aspect of many different empirical systems some of which cannot possibly be referred to as empiricism.
axiomatic formalism is again an aspect of many different systems of epistemology, not all of which are rationalism.
at roughly 11:50 you state that analytic propositions could be considered a subset of incorrigible ones, but isn't the reverse more likely? "honest statements about my own experience are true automatically" sounds like an axiom to me.
at 17:15 you outline the "pragmatic process" but never explain why empirical collection of data has to be the first step. isn't it equally valid within pragmatism to collect your initial data from any source what so ever so long as the conclusions you come to are still tested for consistency with predicted outcomes?
at 18:45 you declare that "pragmatic empirical rationalism," the system you outline as the only way to access objective reality, is just science. but science is limited to quantifiable mathematically describable phenomena, wouldn't this eliminate all discussion of value, justice, reason, or any other abstraction our society requires to survive?
Occam's Razor is an incredibly powerful and oft misused tool. how do you think we ought measure assumptions? is "the scientific community is not wrong, therefore if I think they are wrong I either don't understand them or I am wrong about the world." one assumption or many? what about "this book was divinely inspired and any failures in predictability are therefore due to misinterpretation?" how do you suggest we tackle these real practical questions of implementing this essential aspect of pragmatism?
at 20:40 you assert that a rejection of pragmatism would mean the proposed system was completely separated from all empirically predictive decisions. isn't that a rather bold and unfounded claim? wouldn't that necessitate that only pragmatism addresses practical activities or outcomes? why can't a system exists which incorporates pragmatism but also expands beyond the merely empirical prediction of the future into a description of reality qua reality?
*doesn't that ignore the distinction between propositions and the meaning of propositions in an unhelpful manner?*
No, because it tells you nothing about how to determine whether or not "the moon is round" is a true proposition.
*You equate mental incorrigibility with empiricism as an epistemological system, but mental incorrigibility is a trusted aspect of many different empirical systems some of which cannot possibly be referred to as empiricism.*
There is no unifying school of thought over what exactly "empiricism" means, other than the fact that it has something to do with experience. Since mental incorrigibility is the most raw, distilled expression of experience there is, it makes sense to think of this as a form of empiricism. Also, you just flat-out contradicted yourself by describing "different empirical systems" that cannot possibly be referred to as empiricism.
*axiomatic formalism is again an aspect of many different systems of epistemology, not all of which are rationalism.*
Again, there is no unifying agreement over what exactly constitutes "rationalism," except for the principle that knowledge can be attained by thinking really hard about ideas. Since axioms and rules of inference all exist entirely "within our heads," so to speak, it again makes perfect sense to ascribe the label of rationalism to this system.
For what it's worth, I hate it when people treat empiricism and rationalism as conflicting schools of thought. They are not in conflict. They just operate on different kinds of knowledge about the world.
*isn't it equally valid within pragmatism to collect your initial data from any source what so ever so long as the conclusions you come to are still tested for consistency with predicted outcomes?*
If you have some other source beyond experience by which to collect data about the world, I'd love to hear it.
*you declare that "pragmatic empirical rationalism," the system you outline as the only way to access objective reality, is just science. but science is limited to quantifiable mathematically describable phenomena, wouldn't this eliminate all discussion of value, justice, reason, or any other abstraction our society requires to survive?*
Value judgements are not objective features of the world. If society requires something like "justice" in order to survive, then it is perfectly feasible to express/justify that need within the pragmatic framework.
*Occam's Razor is an incredibly powerful and oft misused tool. how do you think we ought measure assumptions?*
By counting them and weighing their relative probabilities.
*you assert that a rejection of pragmatism would mean the proposed system was completely separated from all empirically predictive decisions. isn't that a rather bold and unfounded claim?*
No, because it is true by definition. By definition, any epistemology not grounded in the pragmatic framework has no bearing on actions and consequences. That's as close to "worthless" as you can get.
*wouldn't that necessitate that only pragmatism addresses practical activities or outcomes? why can't a system exists which incorporates pragmatism but also expands beyond the merely empirical prediction of the future into a description of reality qua reality?*
Because this isn't a hierarchy. Actions and consequences are all that matter at the end of the day, and there is literally nothing else you can show me that would magically "expand beyond" them.
@@AntiCitizenX: it doesn't give a method for discovering the truth because it is making a metaphysical claim not an epistemological one.
Empiricism is an epistemological theory which claims that the only viable source of information is through empirical data from the senses. there are a lot of different ways people go about describing or implementing this basic premise but this is what empiricism means.
I meant "epistemological system;" damn autocorrect.
rationalism is the idea that the fundamental and most proper method for gaining knowledge is to directly engage the mind with the problem without the mediation of the senses. there are a plethora of theories about how to implement this overarching claim which all could be called rationalism but any theory which denied this claim could not be rightly referred to as rationalism.
the metaphysical presuppositions of rationalism are in direct conflict with the metaphysical presuppositions of empiricism. the way you are using the words is not as epistemological theories but as generic methods of learning. epistemology is more than that.
that said you are right to say that it is possible to craft an epistemological theory which utilizes both axiomatic formalism and mental incorrigibility into one epistemological theory, such a theory would not be a rationalist theory nor an empiricist theory, but it can be crafted.
intuition, testimony, and axiomatic manipulation, are all non-empirical sources of information about the world.
How? how can the pragmatic approach do any justice to the innumerable intangibles that human society has depended on from the beginning? also, where do you get the gall to say that value assessments are not valid understandings of objective reality. some value judgments are as close to purely subjective as possible, (I really like mint chocolate chip icecream) but others are clear objective facts about reality (sunsets are beautiful, human beings have inherent value, the unjustified killing of a fellow human is morally abhorrent).
could you address my full question about Occam's Razor, I think you missed them point of the question. assumptions are not easily counted without a framework nor is probability easily measured without an established framework. and because things are complicated frameworks themselves inherently come with assumptions built into them. how do you think these difficulties ought be addressed?
don't beg the question. I am claiming that the pragmatic framework as you have outlined it is not the only system which cares about outcomes, predictability, etc. you cannot simply respond, "I'm right by definition" when your definition of the pragmatic framework included a lot more than simply "learn what you can however you please and then test it in the world in what way you please and the consequences will be an indicator of the appropriate truth function to apply." you made explicit claims about possible sources of data and imposed constraints on the kind of data which will have importance in measuring consequences, these are claims which can be challenged without denying the central point that ones actions in the world along with their consequences should play a central role in assigning truth values.
Actions and Consequences may be all that matter to you at the end of the day but there are innumerable individuals out there who care a great deal about reality qua reality, consequences be damned. almost every philosopher ever just to indicate a few.
Additionally, the way in which you formulated pragmatism and its restrictions seems to be the philosophical equivalent of denying quantum mechanics because it is irrelevant in the vast majority of engineering discussions, which are what really matter at the end of the day, and no one can be entirely sure what's going on down at that scale anyway.
@@alexodom358 *It doesn't give a method for discovering the truth because it is making a metaphysical claim not an epistemological one.*
Metaphysical or not, it's still a vapid tautology.
*there are a lot of different ways people go about describing or implementing this basic premise but this is what empiricism means*
I know. I agree completely. That's why I think mental incorrigibility is the purest distillation of empiricism there is.
*rationalism is the idea that the fundamental and most proper method for gaining knowledge is to directly engage the mind with the problem without the mediation of the senses*
That's one way to think of it. I prefer to tone it down a little and simply say that "some" types of knowledge can be obtained through purely mental processes, and that the only thing you would ever meaningfully arrive at accordingly is a bunch of glorified definitions. That's not to belittle rationalism. It's only to put rationalism in a proper place that actually makes sense and has coherent value. Otherwise, rationalism flies off the rails into coo-coo territory.
*intuition, testimony, and axiomatic manipulation, are all non-empirical sources of information about the world*
Intuition is not a source of information about the world. It's your brain's way of processing experiences without the direct use of language, which makes it a subtle form of empiricism. I also have no idea what you mean by "testimony" or how that could possibly tell you anything about objective reality. Lastly, axiomatic manipulation is nothing more than glorified word-play, and so it only tells you about language rather than objective reality (i.e., "the world"). So no, none of those things qualify.
*How? how can the pragmatic approach do any justice to the innumerable intangibles that human society has depended on from the beginning?*
I have no idea what you're even asking. I don't care about "doing justice to innumerable intangible." I only care whether or not my beliefs are capable of generating reliable, empirically predictive models of the world. You are more than welcome to mentally masturbate over innumerable intangibles all day. All I'm saying is that it literally makes no difference one way or the other if those intangibles have no power to influence actions and consequences. The distinction between "true" and "false" is therefore meaningless and irrelevant in such contexts, by your own admission.
*you cannot simply respond, "I'm right by definition"*
By definition, the pragmatic framework measures synthetic propositions in accordance with their capacity to generate reliable empirical predictions. Therefore, by definition, anything NOT concerned with actions or consequences is NOT pragmatic. Furthermore, by definition, anything not concerned with actions or consequences is philosophically irrelevant. Therefore, by definition, anything NOT pragmatic is irrelevant. Why is this so hard to grasp? I made this point very clear in the video: I could agree outright with all of your non-pragmatic conclusions, and literally NOTHING in my life would fundamentally change as a result. That is as close to pure, philosophical irrelevance as it is possible to get, and I can prove it using nothing but the definitions of those terms.
Do you use science to prove your science right?
If yes, how do you know your science is right?
If no, why do you trust in the scientific method?
+Pasxali K
Trust the scientific method because the scientific method trusts nothing. Of all the people in the world, the one who takes no one at their word is the hardest to fool. Science starts at a position of doubting everything and proceeds to give it all a chance to fail by conducting an endless series of experiments designed to force every idea to either live up to its promises or fail and be dismissed.
"Do you use science to prove your science right?" No, science never proves anything right. All science does is give ideas a chance to fail by testing them. No amount of testing will prove an idea true, but false ideas will sometimes be revealed as false.
"If no, why do you trust in the scientific method?" Because false ideas can only be revealed by testing them, so we do the scientific method to try to weed out the bad ideas from the good.
+Pasxali K
*Do you use science to prove your science right?*
"Science" is not a proposition and has no truth value. You can only "do science" or "not do science."
Clearly you're just repeating what some zealots told you to say without thinking about what you're saying. What makes it worse is the the video never claimed that science was a claim, and thus cannot be true or false.
Think for yourself, don't be a sheep.
AntiCitizenX I disagree.
That's like saying Math is no proposition and therefore is not true nor false, you can only "do maths" or "not do maths".
But in reality everyone thinks he knows maths, because they "learned" it in school, yet still I hardly remember the last time all students in a class simultaneously wrote A grades in maths all the time, everywhere.
So apparently math has to be learned first by other humans, then still some do it properly, and some do it wrong or poorly.
Where does your science fit into this analogy?
Is science always right aslong as you "just do it"?
Sorry, but if you truely believe that you must have missed some lessons about scienctific history in your education.
Science revises itself all the time.
God on the other hand is said to reveal himself to the people (not by one particular religion, but by many), people dont have to "learn" god from other people necessarily, there are lots of testimonies of personal revelations and experiences.
The fact that there are so many different religions is evidence of that, otherwise if it was only something people "told" other people we would only have one religion in this world, namely whichever spawned first.
That is not the case. Poeple have different interpretations of god, because god is said to have revealed himself in different times to different people, who where isolated populations. In ancient times technology didn't allow and enable people to travel quickly neither was there ways of communication near realtime, like we have it today.
***** "Is science always right as long as you just do it?"
Science is neither right nor wrong. Science is merely a technique to try to improve our understanding of the world. It provides no answers for you to evaluate as true or false. It is merely the practice of testing our ideas, and those ideas that survive our best tests earn the privilege of being trusted above other ideas. Using well-tested ideas has put people on the moon; that is the strength of science.
"If it was only something people told other people we would only have one religion in this world, namely whichever spawned first."
I think you underestimate people's ability to disagree with each other. Even if all the world had a single religion, people would quickly break off into their own sects that better reflect their tastes. Just think of how the Protestants split from the Catholics.
Thank you for the video. Your vids are educational for me and they inspire me to make my own videos. Have a nice day!
I love it! This is just the video I needed in my epistemological existentialism of recent, but since it hasn't been quenched despite being calmed, I question further: what about the philosophical problems science cannot solve? What do we answer them with? How do we know if those answers are proper or not?
Before answering, first answer this: what practical utility is gained or lost depending on what answer we get?
@@thek2despot426 peace of mind
People get paralyzed with regards to decisions or are forever plagued by certain things
I don't need your answer anymore btw. Such things aren't meant for science by definition.
Just want to say I find myself needing to direct people to this video so often that I’ve actually made a keyboard shortcut on my phone to automatically paste a link here whenever I type “whatistruth”.
Wow, thank you!
11:55
Wish you'd spoken about the analytic-synthetic distinction. We actually have many reasons to think that this distinction does not exist.
Over 2/3 of modern PhD philosophers disagree with you, my friend.
Plato don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no mo'...
Love your channel. Keep up the good work!
Conclusion: Ignore any philosophical concerns anyone may bring up.
This is fantastic, very well made. Exactly what I was looking for
How do you respond to the problem of the one and the many?
as long as you don't believe your own lies, there is hope
Any book recommendations on pragmatism?
Possibly the most pragmatic definition of Pragmatism I've ever heard (in this context, I can't think of higher complement). I'd be curious to hear, what do you think of the "FoundHerentism" of Susan Haack?
I've heard of it but I don't know much about it.
As the name might suggest, it combines coherentism and foundationalism in such a way as their virtues eliminate their respective vices. I think it's clever, though (as your video points out), probably not as important as realizing that truth is knowledge that "pays it's way". Look forward to more!
Ok there is a section I got to where it say Beliefs drives actions, Actions have consequences, Consequences are Objective.
This is hypothetical. But I believe and assert my propositional truth that I need your car and cash to get to my destination. I even caused bodily harm towards you.. What determines in your mind why there should be consequences for my actions?
*But I believe and assert my propositional truth that I need your car and cash to get to my destination.*
Prove it.
What am I suppose to prove? If I see you and your car. And I believe I need your car and cash for survival reasons at that moment to satisfy my need; even to the point of causing bodily harm if you try to stop me. I am asserting my propostional truth that this action is good and right to satisfy me need. since there is no Objective Truth.
I'm going in more detail. So my question is for you. Using your concept, What determines in your mind why there should be consequences for my actions if my action?
Why do you say I have to prove any think it is my asserted propositional truth by defenition my judgement my opinion. Because there is no Objective Truth.
Forget the part that says " if my actions?" phrase is a typo
*What am I suppose to prove?*
All you did was assert some proposition out of nothing. Specifically, "I believe and assert my propositional truth that I need your car and cash to get to my destination." That's not a proof of truth or a statement of fact. It was a bare assertion and nothing else.
*I am asserting my propostional truth that this action is good and right to satisfy me need.*
See? You're just asserting facts without evidence. Prove it. And while you're at it, please explain to me how this thought problem is relevant to the principle of truth assignment for synthetic propositions.
Well done Sir! Very comprehensive and available to share with my Christian friends! After they understand this video, all I have to do is ask "What predictions do the claims of Christianity make?" And then the debate is over!
Now this definition of truth has a problem. That it breaks the fundamental law of logic that's the law of non-contradiction. Now, why do I say that? Because there is no objective standard of practicality in the first place. For example we can take this sentence:
“Atoms have electrons, protons and neutrons.”
Now this sentence is practical for a scientist. But for me this sentence is impractical. Now I will say that sentence is true and false at the same time. Just because it's practical and impractical at the same time for different people? No! Because it will break the law of non-contradiction that a sentance can't be false and true at the same time. So, here for resolving that problem we have to remove the criteria of practicality here for calling it true and false without contradiction.
Man, I love your videos.
Even better philosophy "does it help me win videogames and puzzle-games?"
Does me sitting their pondering about the Gods that run the Mushroom Kingdom enable me to solve the lore of the videogame or get Mario to the finish-line? No? Golly... that's useless
but what if we deny the definitions like what makes something furry and also not all dogs are furry so it's false 3:09
People should just, ya know....read the Pragmatists so they can understand what ACX is getting at. Start with Peirce, James, and Dewey then see what happens.
Biblical inerrancy also has another problem; it is internally inconsistent. For instance, Genesis 1's creation account contradicts that of Genesis 2. Even if we knew nothing about the creation of life and the universe, we must necessarily reject at least one of the biblical accounts. Internal inconsistencies literally disprove a model with 100% certainty.
Great video. Where did you learn about pragmatic epistemology ? Any book recommendations ?
Its sad that many are scared to go outside their comfort zone and look around... The truth is out there!!
*cue X-Files music
Dun duh dun duh dun duh
Truth to be called so must be true unconditionally at any part of space or time. Period.
So in other words, you didn't watch the video. Thanks.
Hi! So from what i have seen in this (amazing) video is that the objective part of science comes from the consequences and reliability? I am confused. It was my prior understanding that science wasn't certain and operated with confidence values (the more fundamental the science, the more accurate the value). But I fail to understand empiricism, and so fail to understand empirical evidence. Can you help?
Basically, is there any use for the word "objective" here?
Thanks for your question. Let me see if I can answer it.
Objective does not mean certain. It just means independent of your opinions and desires. When you make a choice, consequences follow, and you cannot “debate” them. That’s the foundation in which science can claim objectivity, even if we still cannot “know” things with absolute perfection.
@@AntiCitizenX Thanks for the reply! So... something is objective when its causes are outside of our minds? So a rock would be considered a part of objective reality if it does not change when i think about it?
you have really got me confused at 4:12 you say {T,T} is false while {F,F} is.... true? make this a lil bit clearer please
T and T is True. How are you saying {T,T} is false?
I don't think it's meant to mean anything in particular. It's just an illustration of how combinations of propositions (with truth values) can be assigned truth values of their own.
Truth = One of two possible subjective conclusions to a proposition
How do i acquire something similar this guy's knowledge and way of thinking?
repeatedly watching his videos is a good start. ;)
Math, science, and engineering. :D
@@AntiCitizenX As a freshman engineering student, this alone could motivate me. Thanks for the inspiring content.
What charkopolis claimed is false because you won't learn anything new by reading a sentence over and over without recontextualization. Seek the sources and study them.
You might be laughing now, but just you wait until someone argues that the consequences are false and pain is just another stimulus that causes a mind-controlling spirit guardian to make their body do things that would, in their psychological understanding, minimise the chances and effects of pain and that is also false and just something to black out and meditate away while being totally awake
Doesnt change the fact that you're still feeling it
"...as if no one really knows what the rules are when engaging in this process."
Yeah, I think they call that, um, because they don't.
'Rules? There ain't no rules! We're trying to accomplish something!'
-Jefferson
This video is like a proof of de Groot's Empirical Cycle.
Nicely done.
Love this video and your channel. I'd love to know where you learned so much about pragmatic epistemology. Any reading recommendations?
"Decisions based on true beliefs will manifest themselves in the form of controlled, predictable experiences..." Isn't this just a rehashing of phenomenalism? We can't really speak of doorknobs in themselves, but only what would happen if I seemed to see a doorknob and appeared to initiate a grasping motion, then reflect on the sense data that follows. Am I warm?
+cellomon09
There's a lot of overlap in the philosophical jargon. People have an annoying tendency to give different names for the same stuff.
+AntiCitizenX Granted, but if that's the case, it seems you're still stuck with the problem that Ayer eventually abandoned, which is to translate our statements about material reality in terms of sense-data declarations, without sneaking material reality in through the back door.
Yes, I know you're not actually disputing the existence of a material reality, only our knowledge of it. Still, if you're going to the skeptical problem, you'll still need an account of our everyday knowledge that's couched entirely in terms of sense-data. What do you have that Ayer didn't?
cellomon09
*What do you have that Ayer didn't?*
Perhaps a willingness to just accept that I don't know everything with perfect certainty, and simply move on.
+AntiCitizenX "Perhaps a willingness to just accept that I don't know everything, and simply move on." So when your account of knowledge requires material statements like "here is an apple" to be translatable entirely in terms of sense-data, and no proposed method of doing so has been successful thus far, it's apparently rationally acceptable to shrug this off as an unreasonable demand for certainty? Sounds to me like this is a fairly relevant prediction which has failed to manifest.
cellomon09
*and no proposed method of doing so has been successful thus far,*
I don't know what you're talking about. I spent a solid 22 minutes explaining exactly how to do that.
17:56 - it sounds like you're saying our model of objective reality used for pragmatic purposes is the objective reality. isn't that kinda contradictory? also, the patterns aren't predictable. the problem of induction messes with everything. likewise, cause and effect or "Actions and Consequences" are not real but something we apply to disconnected phenomena. And so, SCIENCE isn't a system of truth but a system of prediction powered by humanity's natural conservative bias of "what worked in the past will work in the future". idk im certainly rambling a bit here, but i feel like the second half of the video was a little mushy.
Is it false if thinking its true makes you better off? And what if that truth makes you worse but makes the people around you and your progeny better off?
Can I make testable empirical predictions or not?
@@AntiCitizenX Sometimes you can't. The highly controlled environments that experiments take place in are often far from the regular experience in everyday life. Please tell me if life being worth living can be tested empirically?
Emotions and experience cannot always be empirically accounted for and that is a majority of human life
@Maximal Where does life exist... How does anything live without adherence to reality? Well, it cannot.
@Maximal This is something I have seen and I am well aware, but we shouldn't be so detached and dissociated that we cannot recognize there is such a thing as a preferable state of humanity. And that this state of well being lets say doesn't objectively exist. Although this is not to mandate the universal lifestyle, that is an argument of itself but it should be recognized there are objectively preferable conditions for individuals. We are not objects but living beings that have and live through emotive states and volition that have intentional states directed towards some end. Although I am not denying your point, it is just moot. Yeah, the universe gives us no moral code and that is completely irrelevant to the needs and desires we have innately.
When it comes to truth values informing actions and actions having consequences, I don’t actually need to conclude that the world outside my mind actually exists in order to conclude that I should behave a certain way. For instance I know that I have unpleasant experiences, such as pain, fear, and sadness, pleasant experiences such as excitement, happiness, and pleasure, and neutral experiences such as seeing and hearing regardless of whether or not the world outside my mind exists. It’s possible to conclude that I should behave in ways that I know are likely to have certain desired affects on those experiences without necessarily concluding that the world outside my mind exists. I can also conclude that the world outside my mind is a useful fiction that is unreasonably effective at predicting my experiences similar to how it’s sometimes argued that math is a useful fiction that is unreasonably effective at predicting how the world behaves.
How is it “useful fiction” to observe that actions have consequences, that those consequences are NOT determined by your whims, and that you are not immediately aware of the causal interactions that lead to them? That’s what we are talking about when we refer to the “external world.” It’s all the stuff beyond your immediate perception that appears to translate your actions into future consequences.
I disagree. Axioms are generalisations of empirically observed properties. That is why logic is so successful. It isn't just invented. It is abstracted.
+Tullius Agrippa
*Axioms are generalisations of empirically observed properties.*
Prove it.
+AntiCitizenX I am not sure that I can provide proof without devoting an huge amount of time and energy to researching the origins of logic. But, do you really believe that the rules of logic were set down arbitrarily by a fiat without empirical evidence for their validity? I suspect that Aristotle, for example, investigated propositions before laying down the rules of classical syllogistic logic. Boolean logic was inferred from aristotelian logic, re-expressed in terms of a newly invented logical algebra followed by an examination of what additional rules were needed for a consistent formalism, and followed by an investigation of how the rules could be relaxed or generalised. The knowledge that led to Euclid's geometry was crystallised from centuries of experience in construction, and Euclid (or some predecessor) abstracted the axioms of the geometry from the known established recipes. That is why Euclid was unhappy with the fifth axiom - because it dealt with things that could not be tested. Even modern mathematics, where mathematicians are eager to show their intelligence by inventing new self consistent sets of axioms on which to base new theories, has not been very successful in inventing a branch of mathematics where the axioms are simply laid down by a fiat. So, though I cannot offer you sufficient proof to establish my stated conviction, it seems inconsistent with what I know of the history of philosophy, logic and mathematics to assert otherwise. In my opinion, morality has also evolved in a similar way, based on ever refining experience rather than being invented by a fiat. Don't get the wrong impression - I am not dismissing your very valuable video, which I appreciate and enjoyed. I am merely venturing a contrary opinion on one small point.
Tullius Agrippa
*But, do you really believe that the rules of logic were set down arbitrarily by a fiat without empirical evidence for their validity?*
Yes. The rules of logic are nothing more than rules we impose into our language. There is nothing "valid" or "invalid" about them. They can only either facilitate communication of information or not. Since they certainly do seem to work really well at formally specifying useful rules in our language, we like them. There are also many other systems we could be using that AREN'T classical binary logic. We just don't seem to like them very much.
AntiCitizenX I really do not wish to argue with you, so I will say only this: The fact that the rules work means that they are empirically tested. This speaks against their invention by fiat, and makes it much more likely that those that first codified them did so by abstracting them from examination of good arguments vis-a-vis bad ones. That is the only justification for their adoption. It is true that there are other valid non-binary logics. They are more difficult to use, and most citizens, Y or Z, would not know how to use them validly. That is why they are not common except perhaps among those few citizens who programme washing machines and mathematicians. Anyhow, thanks for the video and thanks for taking the trouble to respond.
I need to ask for clarification on something, one of the examples that came up included this formula (A=B, B=C, C=A) I don't understand how this equation works. this appears to be in conflict with the law of identity, the first rule of the logical obsoletes.
the logical obsoletes being
1) The Law of Identity: A is always equal to itself.
2) The Law of Non-contradiction : A can not be equal to not A
3) The Law of Inclusion: A stands in opposition to B only in the absence all other possibilities
so, what is this formal (A=B, B=C, C=A) describing?
First off, there is no "law of identity" as you describe. That's a complete myth.
Second, the formula you gave is called a rule of inference. It is a statement with the form "If X then Y." It is a rule that is used to generate new true propositions out of premises. It's a rule that governs our use of language.
1) The number of apples in my bucket is equal to the number of oranges in your box.
2) The number of oranges in your box is equal to the number of potatoes in your sack.
3) Therefore, the number of apples in my bucket is equal to the number of potatoes in your sack.
That's how it works.
But you have to admit, no matter how much science advances, no one would argue we got to the point that science has left humanity with no need for philosophy
I would love to heard Gary Edwards thoughts abouts this.
11m49s You should have emphasized: truths/theorems derived from formal symbol manipulation according to the rules of the language.
+The Ultimate Reductionist
I thought I did. Maybe not in so many words, but there was a lot of information I needed to grind through. I'm sorry if I didn't address some specific nuance to your liking. I did a lot of back and forth writing on how much information was too much or too little. Some stuff inevitably didn't get emphasized as well as it could have.
Why don't more people understand this? Well done.
Great stuff. Wonder if you could post it on r/philosophy subreddit for more exposure.