The Healing Church seem very Machiavellian In their philosophy, and thirst for power justifies any brutality or subjective evil to them, as well as manipulating the people and killing anyone who opposes them. They are classic "gray" villains, but it should be remembered the ultimate goal of Church serves only themselves.
I wouldn’t be so sure about them only serving themselves because the Healing Church may have seen some of the Great Ones as a very real threat to humanity. We know that the nightmare of the hunter was caused by a great one. If the church saw the great ones not as a singular but rather a plethora of individuals we may have to conclude that her pursuit of evolution at any cost may have been based on the fear of the old blood that was so popular at Master Williams institute.
The way I see it, "A corpse should be left well alone" makes reference to the player disturbing Maria's corpse, AND it makes reference to Maria and Gehrman disturbing Kos' body. IMO Maria regrets experimenting on the people of the Fishing Hamlet, destroying the body of Kos and in general experimenting with blood.
There is no other perspective here. The (very likely) purposefully infected the poorest section of Yharnam with an affliction to "test" the healing properties of the blood, clearly saw what was going on, burned that part of the city to the ground, and then......kept on using the blood LONG after it was obvious it was turning everyone exposed to long-term use into beasts. They then retreated to their enclave, where the succumbed to an even greater madness, as if their first mistake shouldn't have been enough to warn them off.
Its all deep talking until something happens to you. I guess you wouldnt be happy ir somebody did something very bad to you, you would not try to take on it as a mere perspective eventuality, nobody would.
I have to point out that while justification is totally subjective; there's the personal accountability present here, as the Healing Church began to learn of what their blood was doing; they continued to do it and pushed further and harder. And knowing their experiments began to kill innocent townspeople and each other. However, something else to take into consideration - is that as scientists they completely bypassed the Insight, which I feel would have granted them the wisdom and knowledge to avoid the beasthood that the blood inevitably causes. Knowingly causing harm while continuing to push further and further is just stupidity which imbibes wholly the definition of insanity. Giving more blood to avoid the side-effect of the blood would do nothing but the same results, if not greater, albeit devastating results. I personally believe that you need BOTH Insight and Blood. Insight to understand the wisdom and ability while the blood to thrust evolution/change onto the minds of one who now has the insight to control it. I know this is old, but just saw the video and loved it. Sorry if you've already come to these outlooks. Just fresh in my mind while listening so wanted to get it out in its purist form. Wish I would have gotten to this sooner. I have so many theories and ideas that people haven't touched on (that I've noticed) and would love to have a discussion with like-minded people who love this game and it's lore. Be well, good Hunters!
I'm even more late, but I completely agree with your take. Look at Willem, unable to even speak like he's having a bad trip. Insight alone did nothing for him. You, on the other hand, potentially become a great one or at the very least kill several of them without succumbing to beasthood or going insane.
@@ComradeOgilvy369I think ultimately that’s not only are both of you right but the church itself may have been unable to even understand the value of insight because it does appear that for a long time the cycles of hunting and returning to normal life worked and allowed the church time to experiment. I think it is imperative to understand the nature of the experiments regarding the possibility of great ones who are not favourable to the church and humanity in general. If we imagine in the church not as an entirely separate institution that based its knowledge on its own research but rather still connected to Master Williams research if only faintly I think that at least for a long time the church knew that the old blood was both dangerous but also perhaps the only key they could even imagine to elevate humanity. Pursuit of elevation must be seen as a direct result of knowledge regarding for example the Vilebloods. It’s in my opinion true that the church did horrific things and arguably corrupted itself but at the same time its purpose was justified because the old ones pawel is both an existential threat to humanity as well as potentially providing a solution for survival. I would therefore conclusively argue that the healing church , despite its corruption over all attempted to do good and, perhaps precisely because of being misguided regarding the lack of insight driven research should be understood as obviously complex but ultimately driven by honourable motives.
In the Tuskegee experiments they didn’t just let it progress. Doctors gave people syphilllis on purpose under the guys of helping the poor African community of the area
Your channel is like madman's knowledge, whenever I watch a video I gain insight. Loving your content man, so thankful there are dedicated lore channels like yours, especially for a cultish-style following game like Bloodborne.
Personally, my question is not whether the Healing Church is Justified but rather,.. Was the Healing Church Infected by the old blood? In my opinion, the overall changes that occur withing the Healing Church since inception make sense when we think that as the Healing Church make progress with their experiments with the old blood, they also gave the results unto themselves and that slowly but surely affected their minds. After that, I think it just became a matter of the Healing Church needing more blood, which required more experiments and so on and on. Or perhaps their minds were affected even before that, because as master Willem himself says to Laurence before leaving.. "We are born of the blood,.. made men by the blood,.. undone by the blood" .."Fear the old blood" So it's very likely that experiments with the old blood went on even before the Healing Church was founded.
This is actually a pretty good reasoning. I mean they started as this bunch of optimistic youths trying to "save the world" with their blood panacea but as they went deeper into the blood addiction you can see they act more and more deranged.
One thing I really like about bloodborne is the fact that it's not religious. Or at least a real one. There was a lot of talk about heaven and hell in this video but I wonder if that was a thought on the minds of the church members? They found a 'great one' and then believed that they too could become 'great' or ascend to greatness or a higher being. Also something not mentioned in this video is the quote by martyr Logarius, I think it's relevant 'acts of goodness are not always wise, and acts of evil are not always foolish, but regardless, we shall always strive to be good'. I don't know the full lore about Logarius, but he was obviously a high ranking member of the church and probably around during the early days when the church was formed. I think they're intentions were good but with what happened at the fishing hamlet and the curse placed on them by Kos, they were probably doomed from the start? Anyway, keep up the good work
this is just a thought, but the reason the healing church desires to keep the fishing hamlet (an atrocity committed by the scholars of byrgenwerth) a secret is because the church takes great pride and inspiration from its roots in byrgenwerth (as can be seen in the blindfold cap) and they would not want to tarnish it.
I’ve thought of the Healing Church as wanting to go beyond humanity but also wanting to help the citizens of Yharnam at least originally but as they went further and further with the old blood they stopped caring about the consequences for their actions and just wanted results and when the results weren’t what they wanted they either abandoned the project (such as Old Yharnam) or tried to hide the truth of what went down from others (such as the actions at the Fishing Hamlet). I wouldn’t call them villains though as they’re more morally gray as they want to evolve humanity to a state of higher being (a noble intention) but simply don’t care what they have to do in order to reach that goal.
How is it "gray"?? The only successful higher being that was created was an idiot god who couldn't even really defend itself. Rom was the "best case" scenario. A being without any real thought or ability whatsoever. Humans weren't supposed to become higher beings, they were supposed to be humans. And the price of trying to upset that order destroyed the lives of everyone who lived in within their reach. All of them.
@@jjstraka1982 they had a noble intention but didn’t care about the consequences of their actions, that is how they’re “grey”. But they’re undoubtedly fuck ups and have caused way more harm then good with their actions.
@@jjstraka1982 Because we have to understand that we are arguably meet the church during its fall perhaps after a very long decline. The experiments with the blood seem to have been conducted not only on the populace. Also on the choir and many other branches of the church including its highest members which must’ve and out of the affected their minds. Consider for a moment the possibility of the knowledge of the great ones. The very understanding what does creatures far beyond humanity exist. The fear of the old blood may have never left the first iteration of the healing church. This resulted in a race to attempt to secure the old bloods power for humanity. As we know today this was a race to the bottom but in the early days of the church which may have lasted for quite a long time considering the impressive architecture of the city, it is my opinion that the church felt the need to do everything possible to gain some level of control over humanities fate. It is also likely that the dispute between Master Williams and Lawrence cost both of them more than we know. It appears that without blood and without insight it is impossible to truly understand the great ones without going insane, becoming trapped in a nightmare / dream or becoming a beast. I would therefore argue that we need to detach what the church became from what it was for a long time - not a madman’s dream but a bastion of unrelenting research attempting to evolve humanity which it feared could perish or be enslaved aso. because beneath their own home they encountered a terrible truth - civilisations lost forever, ruined beyond recognition.
great topic for discussion. new sub here, love the depth this channel can offer on lore most don't get to. keep up the great work and sparking those great discussions
Just expressing some sincere praise on how dialectic these lore videos of yours can get. It isn't as solipsistic or as isolated as some of the other Lore youtubers' interpretations, and you seem to relish in the confluence of these ideas, so kudos!
Great video, I'm always fascinated by the 'evil' corporations, religions, and empires from movies/games; the Healing Church was a nice topic to see covered. (Probably the only exception to this list is the Unitology Sect. from Dead Space...I hate those bastards.)
I think they are we live in the real world so we have no idea what they could be going through. Could you even imagine having something that could cure all diseases or knowing that beings exist that overpower humanity? Sacrifices must be made if there was even a slim chance you could become one with a being so powerful it transcends multiple planes of thought I'm taking it.
very much too late to add anything meaningfull here but I've always considered the healing church to be a victim of it's own sucess, rather then assuming that creating new old ones via the blood I thought that healing was the primary motivation of laurence and those who deserted birgenworth sure, they still sought old ones and enlightenment which is why they established mensis and the choir but I honestly think that the beast plague was an unintended side effect rather then just collatoral dammage I think laurence and co could be blamed for shortsightedness and hubris but I don't think they were purposfolly creating beasts or even abandonning yarnham let's say radioactivity cured diseases and inmediatly after discovering this marie currie would start irradiating sick people to cure them, only after a few years it turns out that it gives people cancer, including mss curie (do you really think that laurence wanted to turn into a beast?) that's the position that healing church finds itself in (only the cancer takes you over and kills other people as well) and right now they're playing an extended round of what people here call "panic football", at first it seemed like minor thing, something a few teams of professionals could handle but soon it escalated beyond controll and by now the notion that the church has any authority over the hunts is laughable at best I also don't buy into the theory that ashen blood was purposfully introduced by the church because 1) blood healing isn't very effective against it so it would undermine rather then strengthen the position of the church and 2) the church was already firmly entrenched at that time seeing as how everyone went to them to try and get healed I'm not saying it wasn't purposfully introduced but it wasn't the basic healing church (maybe mensis or the choir) so, is the healing church justified? if you go from what they know at the time, yes see it this way: was ludwig justified in opening the hunts to the common people? yes, as far as he knew the beast scourge was getting too big for the small team of professional hunters to contain and he was right in that but just because it's justified doesn't mean it's a good idea, ludwig didn't know that it would turn out to be a free for all that would ultimatly quicken the transformations and thus worsen the beast scourge and in a way ludwig symbolises the whole healing church, he's a noble man with noble intentions who tried his best to help the people despite his detractors saying that he was wrong but those detractors were right and master willem was right when he detracted laurence, their intentions were noble but they failed because they didn't know the consequences of their actions and ultimatly that's the big sin of the healing church: they don't know, they don't know and they act anyway because they feel compelled to do so and frankly that makes them a step above those bastards at mensis and the choir who know what they're doing and do it anyway the healing church may not care for humans but they do care for humanity, theirs is the road that's paved with good intentions but we all know where it will end up
What’s a great one other than a hideous thing that is “in a higher plain of thought”? And what’s this “higher plain of thought”, the glance of an endless void?
I mean, as I mentioned in another comment, the BEST CASE scenario of all their experimentation and the suffering and death it caused is......Rom. A blind, mute, nearly immobile "God" who may in fact be entirely brain dead.
The design concept for Vicar Amelia provides much insight into the Healing church. She was one of the pawns by the first Vicar Laurence who was brainwashed into the false teachings of the healing church. When you first encounter Amelia she is praying, the prayer is ignorant in tone. When she transforms, her cleric hood covers her eyes, this visually indicates her blindness to the false teachings internalised by her. Her overall design describes a wolf in sheep's clothing symbolic of her appearance and choice of design colour. This goes back to the teachings of false prophets and the road to damnation. Lastly, even when she transforms she still clings to the pendant in her one hand, that hand becomes her weakness in the fight even so it literally is her weakness that she clutches onto as it is the result of her transformation, and furthermore, when transformed she still prays using the pendant which displays her brainwashed state that still clouds her thinking as she is cemented in her beliefs sold by the first vicar. for me, Vicar Amelia is one of the major tragic characters in the game.
You mentioned the Sumerian beliefs mirrored here as the world being surrounded by sea. You also mentioned Kos being a clam. What if Kos contains the world within her?
Well to be fair the healing church kind of success when the good hunter becoming a great one Of course there are so much sacrifice on the way but I believe there are much more sacrifice committed when Byrgenwerth created Rom And I did believe the next good hunter will need even least sacrifice in order to become a great one all thank to you who will take a role of Rom only better and so on will happen until sacrifice won't be necessary anymore
so basically humans are too weak to ascend to great ones themselves, becoming beasts or kin instead. one question I have is if the beasts and kin are connected in any way, since fake iosefka said she used old blood on the patients and we can see them transformed into kin, unlike others who consumed (the same?) blood and transformed into beasts.
I think Iosefka's blood is different, being amber in colour if you look at the vial itself. I believe it means that it has the platelets taken out, which could be the "beast" part.
Remember, blood saints have the ability to "purify" the Old Blood, and "add legitimacy" to the claims of the church. Among these would be Arianna, Adella, Adeline, and so on. Iosefka could be added to this list as well. This "purified" blood could change the way that one ascends.
Random Nier: Automata and Overwatch enthusiast not too weak but as the beast roar item description says,” this screech is released from the own wielders vocal cords.” It also says what lies within the frames of men which suggests man had something terrible inside them. This means humans could never become great ones without the influence of the great ones to transcend their beastly stupidity because man was always destined to become beast the old blood just rushed the beast transformation process. The great ones weren’t always great ones but became great they were just a race species that came before ours to become great that is why there are so many different kinds of great ones since they are different species that became great ones. There are multiple amygdala so there are not one of each great one but that each great one are just a individual or many of a species to become great. The amygdala are many because many became great while other great ones are the only one of there species to become great ones. Also kos or kosm is most likely the cosmos and ebrietas is her daughter and the orphan is her son and kos is also the only great one to be able to have their own children which means she was on another level of greatness. She was really weak though from parasites and pregnancy when the hunters killed her so she wasn’t able to fight back.
I think the biggest problem is that they(the church) want to rush the evolution process with the help of the blood. The human body simply can't dealt with that kind of pressure and the dna just simply broke down and altering them into beasts instead.
The idea of Beasthood being what determines someone's worthiness or lack thereof would be an interesting theory if not for the fact that the initial experiments were the very thing that brought forth the Beasthood in so many men and women. According to Bloodborne's true ending only those who are able to defeat the Moon Presence are even worthy of becoming a new Great One anyway.
The Old Blood greatly benefited Yharnum. It was a genuine miracle, and a great thing for the world. If only it didn't cause the FUCKING BEAST PLAGUE. The Higher-Ups of the Church knew this. The lower-downs... It's a bit unclear.
the healing church reminds of the french revolution and the ushering in of capitalism by it which did progress production but now we have a nasty bill for producing more then we need on the costs of the working class, especially in the global south and of course nature. now people are so dogmatic about capitalism being the only option just like the world in bloodborne seems stuck or even backwards, even though both things were progressing humanity albeit not as much as we think like we did. a new system needs to be in place (a theme more prevalent in elden ring)
Indulgence via money, as far as I am aware, is considered not means for the forgiveness of sin in the Roman Catholic Church. Giving money to the Church does not go to the Church itself. It goes to the community, especially those in need. If a "religion" requires money as the main means of having sins forgiven, thoroughly question and see visibly where that money is going.
In my pesonal opinion, the Healing Church and their sects are not justified in their actions despite their goals. The Healing Church (referring to the sect that focuses on Blood Healing), the Choir, and the School of Mensis all had tread a horrible path to obtain their "selfless" (more like selfish) goals. *The Healing Church* gave blood that was known to cause beasthood in people who partake in the blood transfusion and drinking of the blood. Yet, they continued speaking of the good of the blood and hiding the dangers of it. They even had assassins (black church hunters) to kill people who become beast. Additionally, as Zephyr 7's post (9:05) references, the white church garb mentions how medicine was not used for healing but research. -(I shall now refer to the Healing Church as Researching Church)- *The Choir* took children, probably from the populace who had died during the hunts, to experiment on to become kin (or at least to ascend). Hence the orphanage at Upper Cathedral Ward. Almost no children coffins are found through out Yarhnum (at least from what I've seen) and the childlike enemies are all found in Upper Cathdral Ward as well. *The School of Mensis* , through the use of their Kidnappers, kidnapped people to experiment on for their rituals to contact to the Great Ones. They literally damned a Yahar'gul into madness with their ritual. The One(s) Reborn (plural in Japanese translation) and the combination of bodies in boxes are just some of the hints to the cruel experiments they could've been doing.
Within the DLC, we had the Astral Clocktower with their own experiments. I do not know who was responsible exactly but it seems like either the Choir or the Healing Church (or both). Most importantly, there are kin at the very top (at the Lumen Garden) so this adds to the extent of how much the Choir knew how their experiments would end up for a very long time.
healing church is right? No, Master Willem is the only one who did something right, by doind practicaly nothing. Healing church was wrong, Gherman and Ludwig were really wrong, they were all assholes at the end.
The Healing Church consisted of very complex people who turned everyone and everything including themselves into bloodthirsty monstrosities just because they could. Yeah, it’s all a matter of perspective I guess.
If the Healing Church were able to transcend at least one human into fully becoming a Great One... Yeah, I'd say they'd be justified. Considering they only succeeded in producing weak facsimiles of the real deal however...
Any discussion about whether or not something is moral has to start by establishing what definition you're using. Either you're comparing actions against a set of pre-defined objective rules, like the 10 commandments, or you're just making things up based on your feelings. If you're comparing the healing church to the former, what objective standard is your example? If you're using the latter, I can't see how the conversation is very interesting, since it's no different than arguing about the "best color" for a hat.
If the healing church has no justification, then neither does any government or religious organization. If evolving humanity is a benefit to humans as a whole, then the suffering of any one human or even group of humans doesn’t matter. We accept this in our daily lives. A government is seen by nearly everyone to be a benefit to humankind, but would many Indian tribes agree? While we can’t prove otherwise, it seems likely that without the genocide of Indians and the unification of the two halves of the USA, the government we have now likely wouldn’t exist. It’s even likely that the western and eastern halves would’ve evolved into separate states. Would one or both join either world war? Would any of the modern developments have occurred? Impossible to say, but it seems unlikely. Depending on your point of view, government is a godsend or it is hell on earth. In Bloodbourne, the Healing Church is, de facto, the state. Were you suffering from ashen blood you might find any justification for its practices to be legitimate. If you lived in Old Yharnum, you might view it as an Indian tribe viewed the US government. Even now, how much scientific progress comes from pain and death, even of innocents? We routinely allow people with terminal diseases to be human test subjects. We are essentially assigning less value to the life of a person dying of some malady than the life of a healthy person. Should the treatment show some other quality that was unknown before, that helps other people, we consider it a justification for doing it. Even if the person dies that we used as a test subject.
The Ashen Blood was almost certainly created and unleashed ON PURPOSE by the Healing Church to provide themselves a massive amount of test subjects. The only analogy you can make is by providing an example of government action that purposefully inflicted a terminal disease upon it's own populace. These examples undoubtedly exist, but no moral person disagrees as to whether or not it was evil.
It's a fascinating discussion and as old as man is -- the desire to become Gods (Adam and Eve) is at the root of much trouble in our world, because the quest for this autonomy and power is just too much for any individual or society to handle. Bloodborne's emphasis on blood links back to fascistic tendencies in the early 20th century which led to the horrific 2nd World War. Nazism was all about blood and soil -- in Bloodborne, Yharnam is about blood and sense of place.
This isn't up for debate. They poisoned Old Yharnam (which can only be seen as the poorest section of the city) on purpose for unwitting experimentation. They continued use of the blood LONG after what it was causing was clear. What was going on in the Research Hall was hardly any better. And Micolash sacrificed an entire village to eternal torment in a nightmare. The Great Ones themselves are not the "villains" of Bloodborne. It's the Healing Church.
Notice the name Old Yharnam. The old are the first to get sick so to blame the healing church seems silly. I believe it should be looked at similarly to the Dark Souls series where it is an endless cycle. The church knew this and were prepared for what was coming. Not their fault. God bless
This is a ridiculous take. "Old" Yharnam refers to the age of that part of the city, not the age of it's residents. The FAR more likely demographic at work here is not age, but wealth. Old Yharnam was full of poor people. Who they poisoned on purpose to administer their "cure". And then torched the place.
Ehm i don't mean to be rude, i like all this stuff but....never thought of checking out vaatividya when looking for an opinion on bb's lore? It would seem kinda logical
![บุษบา - เมนทอล [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IGnWPokSEis/mqdefault.jpg)
![[ไฮไลต์] แบดมินตันชาย วิว กุลวุฒิ ไทย vs ฟินแลนด์ รอบแบ่งกลุ่ม | โอลิมปิก 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GIbeFO0tvnQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Healing Church: Social Control & Foucault [Bloodborne Lore ft. Redgrave and Aegon of Astora]](/img/n.gif)
Is the Healing Church justified in its actions? After much thought, consideration, and serious introspection...
lol no
"NANDATO?" - Akainu
Instablaster...
the choir, as a group, fell.
DISTRESSED CAR NOISES
Spider Man hey bro
The Healing Church seem very Machiavellian In their philosophy, and thirst for power justifies any brutality or subjective evil to them, as well as manipulating the people and killing anyone who opposes them. They are classic "gray" villains, but it should be remembered the ultimate goal of Church serves only themselves.
I wouldn’t be so sure about them only serving themselves because the Healing Church may have seen some of the Great Ones as a very real threat to humanity. We know that the nightmare of the hunter was caused by a great one. If the church saw the great ones not as a singular but rather a plethora of individuals we may have to conclude that her pursuit of evolution at any cost may have been based on the fear of the old blood that was so popular at Master Williams institute.
Surrogate here! I'm honored you felt my texts were good enough to read in a video! Good Hunting!
Thanks for contributing, my friend!
It was a very good comment!
Obligatory, "Healing church did nothing wrong," comment.
The way I see it, "A corpse should be left well alone" makes reference to the player disturbing Maria's corpse, AND it makes reference to Maria and Gehrman disturbing Kos' body.
IMO Maria regrets experimenting on the people of the Fishing Hamlet, destroying the body of Kos and in general experimenting with blood.
who would have guessed humans are interesting flawed characters, and that good and evil are based upon perspective.
True but not in the case of the church they are for the most part pretty damn evil.
Sometimes. Sometimes its a matter of perspective.
There is no other perspective here. The (very likely) purposefully infected the poorest section of Yharnam with an affliction to "test" the healing properties of the blood, clearly saw what was going on, burned that part of the city to the ground, and then......kept on using the blood LONG after it was obvious it was turning everyone exposed to long-term use into beasts. They then retreated to their enclave, where the succumbed to an even greater madness, as if their first mistake shouldn't have been enough to warn them off.
Its all deep talking until something happens to you. I guess you wouldnt be happy ir somebody did something very bad to you, you would not try to take on it as a mere perspective eventuality, nobody would.
I have to point out that while justification is totally subjective; there's the personal accountability present here, as the Healing Church began to learn of what their blood was doing; they continued to do it and pushed further and harder. And knowing their experiments began to kill innocent townspeople and each other.
However, something else to take into consideration - is that as scientists they completely bypassed the Insight, which I feel would have granted them the wisdom and knowledge to avoid the beasthood that the blood inevitably causes. Knowingly causing harm while continuing to push further and further is just stupidity which imbibes wholly the definition of insanity. Giving more blood to avoid the side-effect of the blood would do nothing but the same results, if not greater, albeit devastating results.
I personally believe that you need BOTH Insight and Blood. Insight to understand the wisdom and ability while the blood to thrust evolution/change onto the minds of one who now has the insight to control it. I know this is old, but just saw the video and loved it. Sorry if you've already come to these outlooks. Just fresh in my mind while listening so wanted to get it out in its purist form. Wish I would have gotten to this sooner. I have so many theories and ideas that people haven't touched on (that I've noticed) and would love to have a discussion with like-minded people who love this game and it's lore. Be well, good Hunters!
I'm even more late, but I completely agree with your take. Look at Willem, unable to even speak like he's having a bad trip. Insight alone did nothing for him. You, on the other hand, potentially become a great one or at the very least kill several of them without succumbing to beasthood or going insane.
@@ComradeOgilvy369I think ultimately that’s not only are both of you right but the church itself may have been unable to even understand the value of insight because it does appear that for a long time the cycles of hunting and returning to normal life worked and allowed the church time to experiment. I think it is imperative to understand the nature of the experiments regarding the possibility of great ones who are not favourable to the church and humanity in general. If we imagine in the church not as an entirely separate institution that based its knowledge on its own research but rather still connected to Master Williams research if only faintly I think that at least for a long time the church knew that the old blood was both dangerous but also perhaps the only key they could even imagine to elevate humanity.
Pursuit of elevation must be seen as a direct result of knowledge regarding for example the Vilebloods. It’s in my opinion true that the church did horrific things and arguably corrupted itself but at the same time its purpose was justified because the old ones pawel is both an existential threat to humanity as well as potentially providing a solution for survival.
I would therefore conclusively argue that the healing church , despite its corruption over all attempted to do good and, perhaps precisely because of being misguided regarding the lack of insight driven research should be understood as obviously complex but ultimately driven by honourable motives.
In the Tuskegee experiments they didn’t just let it progress. Doctors gave people syphilllis on purpose under the guys of helping the poor African community of the area
Your channel is like madman's knowledge, whenever I watch a video I gain insight. Loving your content man, so thankful there are dedicated lore channels like yours, especially for a cultish-style following game like Bloodborne.
I honestly love Bloodborne lore a bit more than DS lore, I must say... thank you for your continued viewership.
May the good blood guide your way.
LoganSoulsBorne4 umbasa
Personally, my question is not whether the Healing Church is Justified but rather,.. Was the Healing Church Infected by the old blood? In my opinion, the overall changes that occur withing the Healing Church since inception make sense when we think that as the Healing Church make progress with their experiments with the old blood, they also gave the results unto themselves and that slowly but surely affected their minds. After that, I think it just became a matter of the Healing Church needing more blood, which required more experiments and so on and on. Or perhaps their minds were affected even before that, because as master Willem himself says to Laurence before leaving.. "We are born of the blood,.. made men by the blood,.. undone by the blood" .."Fear the old blood" So it's very likely that experiments with the old blood went on even before the Healing Church was founded.
This is actually a pretty good reasoning. I mean they started as this bunch of optimistic youths trying to "save the world" with their blood panacea but as they went deeper into the blood addiction you can see they act more and more deranged.
One thing I really like about bloodborne is the fact that it's not religious. Or at least a real one. There was a lot of talk about heaven and hell in this video but I wonder if that was a thought on the minds of the church members? They found a 'great one' and then believed that they too could become 'great' or ascend to greatness or a higher being. Also something not mentioned in this video is the quote by martyr Logarius, I think it's relevant 'acts of goodness are not always wise, and acts of evil are not always foolish, but regardless, we shall always strive to be good'. I don't know the full lore about Logarius, but he was obviously a high ranking member of the church and probably around during the early days when the church was formed. I think they're intentions were good but with what happened at the fishing hamlet and the curse placed on them by Kos, they were probably doomed from the start? Anyway, keep up the good work
this is just a thought, but the reason the healing church desires to keep the fishing hamlet (an atrocity committed by the scholars of byrgenwerth) a secret is because the church takes great pride and inspiration from its roots in byrgenwerth (as can be seen in the blindfold cap) and they would not want to tarnish it.
dude its amazing how much work you put into these videos. really high quality stuff keep it up
I’ve thought of the Healing Church as wanting to go beyond humanity but also wanting to help the citizens of Yharnam at least originally but as they went further and further with the old blood they stopped caring about the consequences for their actions and just wanted results and when the results weren’t what they wanted they either abandoned the project (such as Old Yharnam) or tried to hide the truth of what went down from others (such as the actions at the Fishing Hamlet). I wouldn’t call them villains though as they’re more morally gray as they want to evolve humanity to a state of higher being (a noble intention) but simply don’t care what they have to do in order to reach that goal.
How is it "gray"?? The only successful higher being that was created was an idiot god who couldn't even really defend itself. Rom was the "best case" scenario. A being without any real thought or ability whatsoever. Humans weren't supposed to become higher beings, they were supposed to be humans. And the price of trying to upset that order destroyed the lives of everyone who lived in within their reach. All of them.
@@jjstraka1982 they had a noble intention but didn’t care about the consequences of their actions, that is how they’re “grey”. But they’re undoubtedly fuck ups and have caused way more harm then good with their actions.
@@jjstraka1982 Because we have to understand that we are arguably meet the church during its fall perhaps after a very long decline. The experiments with the blood seem to have been conducted not only on the populace.
Also on the choir and many other branches of the church including its highest members which must’ve and out of the affected their minds.
Consider for a moment the possibility of the knowledge of the great ones. The very understanding what does creatures far beyond humanity exist. The fear of the old blood may have never left the first iteration of the healing church. This resulted in a race to attempt to secure the old bloods power for humanity. As we know today this was a race to the bottom but in the early days of the church which may have lasted for quite a long time considering the impressive architecture of the city, it is my opinion that the church felt the need to do everything possible to gain some level of control over humanities fate.
It is also likely that the dispute between Master Williams and Lawrence cost both of them more than we know. It appears that without blood and without insight it is impossible to truly understand the great ones without going insane, becoming trapped in a nightmare / dream or becoming a beast.
I would therefore argue that we need to detach what the church became from what it was for a long time - not a madman’s dream but a bastion of unrelenting research attempting to evolve humanity which it feared could perish or be enslaved aso. because beneath their own home they encountered a terrible truth - civilisations lost forever, ruined beyond recognition.
Man I really wish I still had my PS4, Bloodborne was so good!
Hopefully when the PS4 Pro comes out, the price of the normal ones will drop. The game is a masterpiece, and you should play it again!
@@mitchl6896 your so bad
Still the best lore channel.
If it ends with a literal alien god creating snail women, it is perfectly justified
great topic for discussion. new sub here, love the depth this channel can offer on lore most don't get to. keep up the great work and sparking those great discussions
Welcome and thank you!
Love these Lore videos bro
12:22 Lmao.
Agreed.
Praise the great ones
Dear Kos, praise Oedon.
DarkBlood Souls Or some say: Kosm! Aaaaaauuuuuuhhhwww!
Hey mitch, I wanted to thank you for your tipp to read the palebloodhunt, it was awesome, keep the good stuff going
I really wish Redgrave would go back to making videos. The guy is an absolute legend. Thanks!
Just expressing some sincere praise on how dialectic these lore videos of yours can get. It isn't as solipsistic or as isolated as some of the other Lore youtubers' interpretations, and you seem to relish in the confluence of these ideas, so kudos!
Aven Alcimos thanks! that means a lot 😊
Great video, I'm always fascinated by the 'evil' corporations, religions, and empires from movies/games; the Healing Church was a nice topic to see covered. (Probably the only exception to this list is the Unitology Sect. from Dead Space...I hate those bastards.)
THE HEALING CHURCH DID NOTHING WRONG
ABSOLUTE JUSTICE
Don't worry, my dude. I can't parry either
Harpocrates, The greek god of silence, sercrecy and confidentiality.
It fits for the hamlet...
I think they are we live in the real world so we have no idea what they could be going through. Could you even imagine having something that could cure all diseases or knowing that beings exist that overpower humanity? Sacrifices must be made if there was even a slim chance you could become one with a being so powerful it transcends multiple planes of thought I'm taking it.
Excellent video!
Is being aussie a requirement for soulsborne lore youtubers? jk xD
Nice vid as always!
very much too late to add anything meaningfull here but I've always considered the healing church to be a victim of it's own sucess,
rather then assuming that creating new old ones via the blood I thought that healing was the primary motivation of laurence and those who deserted birgenworth
sure, they still sought old ones and enlightenment which is why they established mensis and the choir but I honestly think that the beast plague was an unintended side effect rather then just collatoral dammage
I think laurence and co could be blamed for shortsightedness and hubris but I don't think they were purposfolly creating beasts or even abandonning yarnham
let's say radioactivity cured diseases and inmediatly after discovering this marie currie would start irradiating sick people to cure them, only after a few years it turns out that it gives people cancer, including mss curie (do you really think that laurence wanted to turn into a beast?) that's the position that healing church finds itself in (only the cancer takes you over and kills other people as well)
and right now they're playing an extended round of what people here call "panic football", at first it seemed like minor thing, something a few teams of professionals could handle but soon it escalated beyond controll and by now the notion that the church has any authority over the hunts is laughable at best
I also don't buy into the theory that ashen blood was purposfully introduced by the church because 1) blood healing isn't very effective against it so it would undermine rather then strengthen the position of the church and 2) the church was already firmly entrenched at that time seeing as how everyone went to them to try and get healed
I'm not saying it wasn't purposfully introduced but it wasn't the basic healing church (maybe mensis or the choir)
so, is the healing church justified?
if you go from what they know at the time, yes
see it this way: was ludwig justified in opening the hunts to the common people? yes, as far as he knew the beast scourge was getting too big for the small team of professional hunters to contain and he was right in that
but just because it's justified doesn't mean it's a good idea, ludwig didn't know that it would turn out to be a free for all that would ultimatly quicken the transformations and thus worsen the beast scourge
and in a way ludwig symbolises the whole healing church, he's a noble man with noble intentions who tried his best to help the people despite his detractors saying that he was wrong
but those detractors were right and master willem was right when he detracted laurence, their intentions were noble but they failed because they didn't know the consequences of their actions
and ultimatly that's the big sin of the healing church: they don't know, they don't know and they act anyway because they feel compelled to do so
and frankly that makes them a step above those bastards at mensis and the choir who know what they're doing and do it anyway
the healing church may not care for humans but they do care for humanity, theirs is the road that's paved with good intentions but we all know where it will end up
What’s a great one other than a hideous thing that is “in a higher plain of thought”?
And what’s this “higher plain of thought”, the glance of an endless void?
I mean, as I mentioned in another comment, the BEST CASE scenario of all their experimentation and the suffering and death it caused is......Rom. A blind, mute, nearly immobile "God" who may in fact be entirely brain dead.
I'll type out my thoughts on all this soon. Good read.
MercilessV Looking forward to it!
Love your vid :D
Micolash did nothing wrong.
Great vid!
Thanks!
Most organizations: *The ends justify the means*
The Healing Chuch : *THE MEANS*
Accurate.
The design concept for Vicar Amelia provides much insight into the Healing church. She was one of the pawns by the first Vicar Laurence who was brainwashed into the false teachings of the healing church. When you first encounter Amelia she is praying, the prayer is ignorant in tone. When she transforms, her cleric hood covers her eyes, this visually indicates her blindness to the false teachings internalised by her. Her overall design describes a wolf in sheep's clothing symbolic of her appearance and choice of design colour. This goes back to the teachings of false prophets and the road to damnation. Lastly, even when she transforms she still clings to the pendant in her one hand, that hand becomes her weakness in the fight even so it literally is her weakness that she clutches onto as it is the result of her transformation, and furthermore, when transformed she still prays using the pendant which displays her brainwashed state that still clouds her thinking as she is cemented in her beliefs sold by the first vicar. for me, Vicar Amelia is one of the major tragic characters in the game.
Okay I haven’t actually watched the video yet but.. based on what I know about the story it’s a solid “fuck no”.
woot! new BB Lore!
When the story department of most recent video games (and movies for that matter) is so barren, you keep on coming back to Bloodborne lore.
It really is a tragedy that even the most ambitious stories in terms of funding can often not get close to this kind of tale.
Awesome vid
You mentioned the Sumerian beliefs mirrored here as the world being surrounded by sea. You also mentioned Kos being a clam. What if Kos contains the world within her?
Well to be fair the healing church kind of success when the good hunter becoming a great one
Of course there are so much sacrifice on the way but I believe there are much more sacrifice committed when Byrgenwerth created Rom
And I did believe the next good hunter will need even least sacrifice in order to become a great one all thank to you who will take a role of Rom only better and so on will happen until sacrifice won't be necessary anymore
1:07 Funny Valentine hunter
Funny Valentine hunter
I love bloodborne
so basically humans are too weak to ascend to great ones themselves, becoming beasts or kin instead. one question I have is if the beasts and kin are connected in any way, since fake iosefka said she used old blood on the patients and we can see them transformed into kin, unlike others who consumed (the same?) blood and transformed into beasts.
I think Iosefka's blood is different, being amber in colour if you look at the vial itself. I believe it means that it has the platelets taken out, which could be the "beast" part.
Remember, blood saints have the ability to "purify" the Old Blood, and "add legitimacy" to the claims of the church. Among these would be Arianna, Adella, Adeline, and so on. Iosefka could be added to this list as well. This "purified" blood could change the way that one ascends.
Random Nier: Automata and Overwatch enthusiast not too weak but as the beast roar item description says,” this screech is released from the own wielders vocal cords.” It also says what lies within the frames of men which suggests man had something terrible inside them. This means humans could never become great ones without the influence of the great ones to transcend their beastly stupidity because man was always destined to become beast the old blood just rushed the beast transformation process. The great ones weren’t always great ones but became great they were just a race species that came before ours to become great that is why there are so many different kinds of great ones since they are different species that became great ones. There are multiple amygdala so there are not one of each great one but that each great one are just a individual or many of a species to become great. The amygdala are many because many became great while other great ones are the only one of there species to become great ones. Also kos or kosm is most likely the cosmos and ebrietas is her daughter and the orphan is her son and kos is also the only great one to be able to have their own children which means she was on another level of greatness. She was really weak though from parasites and pregnancy when the hunters killed her so she wasn’t able to fight back.
I think the biggest problem is that they(the church) want to rush the evolution process with the help of the blood. The human body simply can't dealt with that kind of pressure and the dna just simply broke down and altering them into beasts instead.
I think there should have been a healing inquisition
saw a turkish airlines add, just wasnt sure if i was ready to get shot down
The idea of Beasthood being what determines someone's worthiness or lack thereof would be an interesting theory if not for the fact that the initial experiments were the very thing that brought forth the Beasthood in so many men and women. According to Bloodborne's true ending only those who are able to defeat the Moon Presence are even worthy of becoming a new Great One anyway.
I've always wondered, am I right to asume everything that happens in BB within a dream world?
a good few of the locations are dreams but its implied that yharnam and the surrounding areas are not
Whoa, this is the closest thing I'll get to a political discussion of Bloodborne...
run of the mill shitposting ? Sign me the fuck up !!
I'd argue the Healing Church are the true monsters of Bloodborne.
Lets not forget the eugenics movement which came from us acquiring hitlers resesrch after WWII
All hail the Aldrich truth.
the devourer of gods?
YES!
the end justifies everything!
Tuskegee is pronounced tus-KEE-gee
Anyway, you have really insightful sources
*Reads Title...
*Reaction: "F_ck's No!"
Shitposting you said? Subbed!
The Old Blood greatly benefited Yharnum. It was a genuine miracle, and a great thing for the world.
If only it didn't cause the FUCKING BEAST PLAGUE.
The Higher-Ups of the Church knew this. The lower-downs... It's a bit unclear.
I honestly believe many members of the church did not understand what was actually causing the beast scourge
Just a heads up, penicillin was developed in WW1 not 2
He said point of view like obi wan......he did the thing he did the thing!!!!
Can we get a patreon link for the creators of this content?
Hey, its not exactly about morality but ethics. Means wont ever justify ends in my opinion.
the healing church reminds of the french revolution and the ushering in of capitalism by it which did progress production but now we have a nasty bill for producing more then we need on the costs of the working class, especially in the global south and of course nature. now people are so dogmatic about capitalism being the only option just like the world in bloodborne seems stuck or even backwards, even though both things were progressing humanity albeit not as much as we think like we did. a new system needs to be in place (a theme more prevalent in elden ring)
Спасибо!
Indulgence via money, as far as I am aware, is considered not means for the forgiveness of sin in the Roman Catholic Church. Giving money to the Church does not go to the Church itself. It goes to the community, especially those in need. If a "religion" requires money as the main means of having sins forgiven, thoroughly question and see visibly where that money is going.
In my pesonal opinion, the Healing Church and their sects are not justified in their actions despite their goals. The Healing Church (referring to the sect that focuses on Blood Healing), the Choir, and the School of Mensis all had tread a horrible path to obtain their "selfless" (more like selfish) goals.
*The Healing Church* gave blood that was known to cause beasthood in people who partake in the blood transfusion and drinking of the blood. Yet, they continued speaking of the good of the blood and hiding the dangers of it. They even had assassins (black church hunters) to kill people who become beast. Additionally, as Zephyr 7's post (9:05) references, the white church garb mentions how medicine was not used for healing but research. -(I shall now refer to the Healing Church as Researching Church)-
*The Choir* took children, probably from the populace who had died during the hunts, to experiment on to become kin (or at least to ascend). Hence the orphanage at Upper Cathedral Ward. Almost no children coffins are found through out Yarhnum (at least from what I've seen) and the childlike enemies are all found in Upper Cathdral Ward as well.
*The School of Mensis* , through the use of their Kidnappers, kidnapped people to experiment on for their rituals to contact to the Great Ones. They literally damned a Yahar'gul into madness with their ritual. The One(s) Reborn (plural in Japanese translation) and the combination of bodies in boxes are just some of the hints to the cruel experiments they could've been doing.
Within the DLC, we had the Astral Clocktower with their own experiments. I do not know who was responsible exactly but it seems like either the Choir or the Healing Church (or both). Most importantly, there are kin at the very top (at the Lumen Garden) so this adds to the extent of how much the Choir knew how their experiments would end up for a very long time.
holy shit your from sydney
healing church is right? No, Master Willem is the only one who did something right, by doind practicaly nothing. Healing church was wrong, Gherman and Ludwig were really wrong, they were all assholes at the end.
The Healing Church consisted of very complex people who turned everyone and everything including themselves into bloodthirsty monstrosities just because they could. Yeah, it’s all a matter of perspective I guess.
If the Healing Church were able to transcend at least one human into fully becoming a Great One... Yeah, I'd say they'd be justified. Considering they only succeeded in producing weak facsimiles of the real deal however...
Am I the only one who kinda feels bad for vicar Amelia?
Healing church ? Wierd experiments on people ? Blood ministration ? Meh . I am simple man I am the tomb prospector
they had no choice in old yharnam
They poisoned Old Yharnam on purpose. It's made plain as day in the comic.
so the healing church is Griffith & the Yharnamites are The Band of The Hawk
No. At least with Griffith he's given a chance to become some kind of god but both Yharnamites and the Curch are both fucked.
Any discussion about whether or not something is moral has to start by establishing what definition you're using. Either you're comparing actions against a set of pre-defined objective rules, like the 10 commandments, or you're just making things up based on your feelings. If you're comparing the healing church to the former, what objective standard is your example? If you're using the latter, I can't see how the conversation is very interesting, since it's no different than arguing about the "best color" for a hat.
Tuss-key-gi. Not Tuskuhgee. XD
i like the gameplay footage. quite crap. fun to watch.
Bro I don't even twitter :o
there's a facebook group as well! just search Mitch L
Touché sir
If the healing church has no justification, then neither does any government or religious organization. If evolving humanity is a benefit to humans as a whole, then the suffering of any one human or even group of humans doesn’t matter. We accept this in our daily lives.
A government is seen by nearly everyone to be a benefit to humankind, but would many Indian tribes agree? While we can’t prove otherwise, it seems likely that without the genocide of Indians and the unification of the two halves of the USA, the government we have now likely wouldn’t exist. It’s even likely that the western and eastern halves would’ve evolved into separate states. Would one or both join either world war? Would any of the modern developments have occurred? Impossible to say, but it seems unlikely.
Depending on your point of view, government is a godsend or it is hell on earth. In Bloodbourne, the Healing Church is, de facto, the state. Were you suffering from ashen blood you might find any justification for its practices to be legitimate. If you lived in Old Yharnum, you might view it as an Indian tribe viewed the US government.
Even now, how much scientific progress comes from pain and death, even of innocents? We routinely allow people with terminal diseases to be human test subjects. We are essentially assigning less value to the life of a person dying of some malady than the life of a healthy person. Should the treatment show some other quality that was unknown before, that helps other people, we consider it a justification for doing it. Even if the person dies that we used as a test subject.
The Ashen Blood was almost certainly created and unleashed ON PURPOSE by the Healing Church to provide themselves a massive amount of test subjects. The only analogy you can make is by providing an example of government action that purposefully inflicted a terminal disease upon it's own populace. These examples undoubtedly exist, but no moral person disagrees as to whether or not it was evil.
the link is sadly not working anymore, bringing me to the mainpage of the board
It's a fascinating discussion and as old as man is -- the desire to become Gods (Adam and Eve) is at the root of much trouble in our world, because the quest for this autonomy and power is just too much for any individual or society to handle. Bloodborne's emphasis on blood links back to fascistic tendencies in the early 20th century which led to the horrific 2nd World War. Nazism was all about blood and soil -- in Bloodborne, Yharnam is about blood and sense of place.
This isn't up for debate. They poisoned Old Yharnam (which can only be seen as the poorest section of the city) on purpose for unwitting experimentation. They continued use of the blood LONG after what it was causing was clear. What was going on in the Research Hall was hardly any better. And Micolash sacrificed an entire village to eternal torment in a nightmare. The Great Ones themselves are not the "villains" of Bloodborne. It's the Healing Church.
Notice the name Old Yharnam. The old are the first to get sick so to blame the healing church seems silly. I believe it should be looked at similarly to the Dark Souls series where it is an endless cycle. The church knew this and were prepared for what was coming. Not their fault.
God bless
This is a ridiculous take. "Old" Yharnam refers to the age of that part of the city, not the age of it's residents. The FAR more likely demographic at work here is not age, but wealth. Old Yharnam was full of poor people. Who they poisoned on purpose to administer their "cure". And then torched the place.
Ehm i don't mean to be rude, i like all this stuff but....never thought of checking out vaatividya when looking for an opinion on bb's lore? It would seem kinda logical
Marco Gianesello they use similar sources for their information...
Love the lore, hate the skills. Get good ya noob! Look at you, getting bullied by spiders.. disgusting.
Thank you for the video =]