Hi there. As a boot fitter since 1978 and expert skier/Instructor I am absolutely loving the way you are getting us all "under the hood" with your video series. Particularly as it reviews the slightly different approaches/philosophies/priorities of the practitioners. I am working my way through them all. I have one suggestion about clarity of nomenclature or terminology. In some of the discussions it seems that there is uncertainty about what "moving the knee inside" vs outside does. IE does bringing the knee more to the medial side of the boot create more or less (inside) edge? Yes, rhetorical question! Moving the knee inside means less (inside) edge (albeit getting the skier more inside the edge), moving it outside means more edge. Quite counterintuitive so maybe worth clearing up. Thanks again for your great work.
Thanks for your comments. I plan to do at least another half dozen videos in this series as soon as I can get face-to-face with the right folks. So I'll be exploring knee position goals with more folks and hopefully shed more light.
It's fascinating to see the differences between what I assume are bootfitting electronic devices and those used for recreational training, like Carv. Carv was what allowed a dad of a young family with no time for private instruction or even to visit bootfitters (again) to realize I wasn’t standing on my whole foot when skiing, which introduced me to Tom Gellie to clarify the biomechanics of skiing, then to Brent Amsbury to reset my footbed to flat, then to Harald Harb for cuff alignment, then finally to Cantology for the true fundamentals of boot canting. I dare say most skiers are like me, and something like Carv can be a massive help especially with those who can only go skiing infrequently. What are these "electronics" that bootfitters use?
I just want to share that this video (and those related in the series) have changed my skiing life… I used the formula in this video that .6mm = a .5 degree change in one’s stance. And the info for that the “average” adjustment was about 2 degrees. Using that formula and a plumb bob to check my knees over my boots , i made some educated guesses and I had a friend 3D print a few blank 2.5 degree planes just barely larger than my current boot insole. It lays over my boot board and under the thin moisture board insole. I have insoles inside my boot liners and re adjusted my boot cuff cant once everything was in place. My first experiment skiing with them was life changing… for the first time ever I could relax in my boots on flat cat tracks… I bring my skis closer together without worry about catching an outside edge (I supinate). Anyway - I know it’s a bit ratchet compared to visiting a boot fitter but I live in Vegas and thought I would give it a go after watching all the vids from your road trip… my legs and knees felt great all day. Usually it feels like I have shin splits by mid day… that all went away, and skiing relaxed felt like I was 10 yrs younger
Glad to hear about your results, but be aware that by applying that much correction within the boot you may eventually encounter other problems related to boot fit as you are tipping your foot within the lower portion of the shell (the 'shoe' part of the boot). You've rightfully mitigated that tipping in the upper areas of the fit by adjusting your cuff. Anyway, congrats on your experiments so far.
This is very interesting. I've been aware of such issues since I started skiing in the 70's, but have never had an assessment done or suggested, and in fact have only owned about 3 or 4 pairs of boots in my life, often with comfort issues. Custom footbeds have been suggested subsequently to address these kinds of issues after the fact. One thing that seems important right at the outset is to assess the skier's feet, and determine arch height, width, length etc. and what kind of footbed if any is needed. None of these issues are mentioned in your video, but it does appear that the fitter is inserting some kind of custom foot bed into the liner at the beginning. I would imagine the footbed could make quite a difference not only to overall fit of the boot, but also stance and the need or otherwise for shims to address cant? Have you looked at the footbed as a factor?
These were new boots for Lisa. All the fit issues you bring up were addressed before I turned on the camera. Full fit evaluation, the boot shell was punched, new foot beds, etc., etc. Canting/alignment should always be the LAST step in boot fitting.
Great value content in this Video! Many thanks for taking the time to put so much knowledge together. I've been searching for a good boot fitter in Germany or Austria.. do have some advice?
You're very welcome! Sorry, I don't have a feel for boot fitters in Europe. I know there are some great ones. Our website lists the boot fitters all around the world that purchase from us, but I can't suggest one over another.
At 12:30 mark, narrator states that by increasing boot cant (either medially or laterally) by 0.5 degrees raises one edge .024" moves the knee laterally .002", not .2" as shown. If the narrator is correct, the video should be corrected.
Ah... you might give it another listen. The screen and my narration match and are correct. .2" == "two tenths of an inch". You're claiming I said "two thousands of an inch".
Seems to me that there is ZERO chance to know what is right without skiing and testing. It is sort of like setting up a race car. You have all the theories you want, but the stopwatch (Data Acquisition these days) is ALL that matters at the track. I think is it same with skiing. Result on the hill are ALL that matter. I can buy bio mechanical symmetry (which does not mean the same wedge on each side...as your legs/ankles/feet may not be the same) but it seems that the overall inside/outside bias could only be determined by skiing and changing wedges. In other words you MUST TEST IT ON THE HILL. Is it common to provide skiers with a base wedge setting, and then a degree or two adjustment in either direction so they can actually test and see what works best, rather than shooting for some theoretical setting? For one skier, a "balanced" or "centered" set up may have them skiing best. For others, bow legged or knock kneed stances may work best. There is more to it than just knees and ankles. For example, I am an ex-racer from the late 80s era. I stopped skiing in about 95....and never skied on modern skis. I just restarted skiing again, and have had to learn a LOT about turn initiation technique, edge tipping, etc on modern skis. I still ski on Tecnica Icon Carbons, which have a cant adjustment on the cuff. While not as effective as a sole wedge, they do work. I found that I was having a very hard time with parallel ski tracking and getting the inside ski to lead with edge initiation. I started playing with cant adjustment which was very time consuming. I ended up changing my whole boot set up a LOT. My old set up favored an 80s style, which favored the DH ski more on edge. When gliding, this would be a bit of a "bow legged" set up. In that older style of skiing, especially racing, the inside ski early in the turn was not super important. It was all standing on the DH ski, finishing the turn and exploding across the fall line. But that set up created all sorts of problems with current techniques. I was struggling to find balance initiating turns with the inside ski leading. I ended up taking angle out of the DH ski and adding it to the uphill ski by leaning my knees in towards each other more. This balanced my turn initiation a lot, and dramatically improved the early part of my turns. I did this all on the hill through trial and error. I went from a bow legged stance to one that is now probably a bit knock kneed. I fully suspect that in a year, if I keep skiing, the setting will need to change AGAIN to suit my progression.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I fully agree that a perfect stance can usually only be achieved through on-snow testing, trial and error. See my interview with Matt Schiller for more on this for elite athletes. But the general public is mostly unaware that their stance is not anywhere near optimal. If we could get everyone to within 80% of perfect, that would be a huge improvement in everyone's skiing and their enjoyment. Those last 20% will take work on the part of the skier, unless they get lucky. And I think 80% is +/- 0.5 degrees. Don't confuse cuff adjustments that you are making with actual canting under the boot sole. These are two different things. The cuff adjusts to CONFORM to your leg, not to make the cuff a pressure-bearing surface to adjust the angle of the ski sole to the snow. See an expert boot fitter.
@@CantologyLLC Utter BS that cuff adjustments can not accomplish the same. I just demonstrated this myself, but you are too self serving and tied up in your own way of doing things to acknowledge it. I adjusted my cuff angle a bunch, and with the ski flat / floating / gliding, I went from "bow-legeed" to "knock kneed". My knees each moved like 1/2"! How is that not the EXACT SAME THING THAT A HARD WEDGE DOES? Again...explain how changing the angle of my ski to tib fib axis "my way" did not change the angle of my ski to tib fib axis. It did. It did the same thing that your wedges did...just not as precisely. Angles are angles. To say it is different is utter BS. I will indeed agree that Angle for angle cuff adjustments are not nearly as effective, because a cuff adjustment has to work around the mushy boot liner. 5 degrees on the cuff is probably lilke 1.5-2 degrees on a wedge, but it still has the same net effect. The boot now has a kink in it, that the line must accommodate. But the net effect is there is an angle change. That means you end up changing how your foot ant lower leg compress the liner. But the net effect is the SAME. The angle of the ski on the snow changes relative to the angel of the tib fib axis. You "Boot Cant" guys who claim it is not the same are just self serving and full of sales hype. Cuff adjustments do the same thing...they are just far less ideal, and require much larger angles because of the mush of the liner. I am a Mech Engineer and P.E....so don't tell me I do not know angles, geometry, vectors, forces, moments etc.
@@shooter7a Your comment makes sense, but I THINK the reason for no relying on the cuffs, is so that your your shins and calves are aligned comfortably in your boots, and sometimes the cuffs are not enough, depending on how much cant you need... I had my my boot cuffs maxed and while it helped a bunch it wasn't enough...
@@ryanlee8459 I agree that cuff adjustments are not as good as a wedge or grinding the base, like with a full world cup plug boot. But a cuff still works to some degree. People who claim that cuff does nothing are plain wrong.
The measurer said her stance was appropriate for her height???? It should be for the leg spacing that is aligned with the hip socket or stance used. So for a narrow pelvic girdle the natural stance will be closer than a person with wide hips. A downhill racer will be more aligned with the stance they hold in a tuck. Whereas, a slalom skier will want to be slightly bull-legged so the ski can get on the edge faster. Note that most women will have a tendency to be knock-kneed, whereas men will have a tendency to be bull-legged. If the skier has a severe knock knee stance then boot or binding wedges will be necessary to move the knees outward. If the adjustment is small, a cuff alignment will usually suffice. Note that generally only high end boots have cuff alignment adjustments. The final adjustment is to look at the tracks of a skier going straight down the fall-line on a pretty flat surface the skis should either leave a perfectly flat mark on the snow or show wandering to both sides of the ski track. After buying new ski boots it will take some time for a liner to settle in, and the test will have to be repeated. Stuffing a card or several cards held together between the cuff and shell and doing this for several runs and seeing what works best will be the final test. Then you can then try cuff alignment or cants on the shelll or binding that mimic the thickness of the play cards.
Sorry if parts of this might be repetitious. If you want to, skip ahead to get the key take-aways at the very end: 11:27.00
your video is extremely helpful. thank you for making it.
Hi there. As a boot fitter since 1978 and expert skier/Instructor I am absolutely loving the way you are getting us all "under the hood" with your video series. Particularly as it reviews the slightly different approaches/philosophies/priorities of the practitioners. I am working my way through them all. I have one suggestion about clarity of nomenclature or terminology. In some of the discussions it seems that there is uncertainty about what "moving the knee inside" vs outside does. IE does bringing the knee more to the medial side of the boot create more or less (inside) edge?
Yes, rhetorical question! Moving the knee inside means less (inside) edge (albeit getting the skier more inside the edge), moving it outside means more edge. Quite counterintuitive so maybe worth clearing up. Thanks again for your great work.
Thanks for your comments. I plan to do at least another half dozen videos in this series as soon as I can get face-to-face with the right folks. So I'll be exploring knee position goals with more folks and hopefully shed more light.
This is way better and way more important than having some electronics in your boot telling you where your weight is.
yep
It's fascinating to see the differences between what I assume are bootfitting electronic devices and those used for recreational training, like Carv.
Carv was what allowed a dad of a young family with no time for private instruction or even to visit bootfitters (again) to realize I wasn’t standing on my whole foot when skiing, which introduced me to Tom Gellie to clarify the biomechanics of skiing, then to Brent Amsbury to reset my footbed to flat, then to Harald Harb for cuff alignment, then finally to Cantology for the true fundamentals of boot canting.
I dare say most skiers are like me, and something like Carv can be a massive help especially with those who can only go skiing infrequently.
What are these "electronics" that bootfitters use?
I just want to share that this video (and those related in the series) have changed my skiing life… I used the formula in this video that .6mm = a .5 degree change in one’s stance. And the info for that the “average” adjustment was about 2 degrees. Using that formula and a plumb bob to check my knees over my boots , i made some educated guesses and I had a friend 3D print a few blank 2.5 degree planes just barely larger than my current boot insole. It lays over my boot board and under the thin moisture board insole. I have insoles inside my boot liners and re adjusted my boot cuff cant once everything was in place. My first experiment skiing with them was life changing… for the first time ever I could relax in my boots on flat cat tracks… I bring my skis closer together without worry about catching an outside edge (I supinate). Anyway - I know it’s a bit ratchet compared to visiting a boot fitter but I live in Vegas and thought I would give it a go after watching all the vids from your road trip… my legs and knees felt great all day. Usually it feels like I have shin splits by mid day… that all went away, and skiing relaxed felt like I was 10 yrs younger
Glad to hear about your results, but be aware that by applying that much correction within the boot you may eventually encounter other problems related to boot fit as you are tipping your foot within the lower portion of the shell (the 'shoe' part of the boot). You've rightfully mitigated that tipping in the upper areas of the fit by adjusting your cuff. Anyway, congrats on your experiments so far.
Awesome thanks for posting.
Glad you enjoyed it
This is very interesting. I've been aware of such issues since I started skiing in the 70's, but have never had an assessment done or suggested, and in fact have only owned about 3 or 4 pairs of boots in my life, often with comfort issues. Custom footbeds have been suggested subsequently to address these kinds of issues after the fact.
One thing that seems important right at the outset is to assess the skier's feet, and determine arch height, width, length etc. and what kind of footbed if any is needed. None of these issues are mentioned in your video, but it does appear that the fitter is inserting some kind of custom foot bed into the liner at the beginning. I would imagine the footbed could make quite a difference not only to overall fit of the boot, but also stance and the need or otherwise for shims to address cant? Have you looked at the footbed as a factor?
These were new boots for Lisa. All the fit issues you bring up were addressed before I turned on the camera. Full fit evaluation, the boot shell was punched, new foot beds, etc., etc. Canting/alignment should always be the LAST step in boot fitting.
Great value content in this Video! Many thanks for taking the time to put so much knowledge together. I've been searching for a good boot fitter in Germany or Austria.. do have some advice?
You're very welcome! Sorry, I don't have a feel for boot fitters in Europe. I know there are some great ones. Our website lists the boot fitters all around the world that purchase from us, but I can't suggest one over another.
Do you know who does this kind of work in Metropolitan Detroit (suburbs) Michigan? thanks.
At 12:30 mark, narrator states that by increasing boot cant (either medially or laterally) by 0.5 degrees raises one edge .024" moves the knee laterally .002", not .2" as shown. If the narrator is correct, the video should be corrected.
Ah... you might give it another listen. The screen and my narration match and are correct. .2" == "two tenths of an inch". You're claiming I said "two thousands of an inch".
@@CantologyLLC Thanks. That seems like a more reasonable increment of adjustment.
Should this be done before cuff is canted using the manufacture swivel bolts on the sides
Seems to me that there is ZERO chance to know what is right without skiing and testing. It is sort of like setting up a race car. You have all the theories you want, but the stopwatch (Data Acquisition these days) is ALL that matters at the track. I think is it same with skiing. Result on the hill are ALL that matter. I can buy bio mechanical symmetry (which does not mean the same wedge on each side...as your legs/ankles/feet may not be the same) but it seems that the overall inside/outside bias could only be determined by skiing and changing wedges. In other words you MUST TEST IT ON THE HILL.
Is it common to provide skiers with a base wedge setting, and then a degree or two adjustment in either direction so they can actually test and see what works best, rather than shooting for some theoretical setting? For one skier, a "balanced" or "centered" set up may have them skiing best. For others, bow legged or knock kneed stances may work best. There is more to it than just knees and ankles.
For example, I am an ex-racer from the late 80s era. I stopped skiing in about 95....and never skied on modern skis. I just restarted skiing again, and have had to learn a LOT about turn initiation technique, edge tipping, etc on modern skis. I still ski on Tecnica Icon Carbons, which have a cant adjustment on the cuff. While not as effective as a sole wedge, they do work. I found that I was having a very hard time with parallel ski tracking and getting the inside ski to lead with edge initiation.
I started playing with cant adjustment which was very time consuming. I ended up changing my whole boot set up a LOT. My old set up favored an 80s style, which favored the DH ski more on edge. When gliding, this would be a bit of a "bow legged" set up. In that older style of skiing, especially racing, the inside ski early in the turn was not super important. It was all standing on the DH ski, finishing the turn and exploding across the fall line. But that set up created all sorts of problems with current techniques. I was struggling to find balance initiating turns with the inside ski leading. I ended up taking angle out of the DH ski and adding it to the uphill ski by leaning my knees in towards each other more. This balanced my turn initiation a lot, and dramatically improved the early part of my turns. I did this all on the hill through trial and error. I went from a bow legged stance to one that is now probably a bit knock kneed.
I fully suspect that in a year, if I keep skiing, the setting will need to change AGAIN to suit my progression.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I fully agree that a perfect stance can usually only be achieved through on-snow testing, trial and error. See my interview with Matt Schiller for more on this for elite athletes. But the general public is mostly unaware that their stance is not anywhere near optimal. If we could get everyone to within 80% of perfect, that would be a huge improvement in everyone's skiing and their enjoyment. Those last 20% will take work on the part of the skier, unless they get lucky. And I think 80% is +/- 0.5 degrees.
Don't confuse cuff adjustments that you are making with actual canting under the boot sole. These are two different things. The cuff adjusts to CONFORM to your leg, not to make the cuff a pressure-bearing surface to adjust the angle of the ski sole to the snow. See an expert boot fitter.
@@CantologyLLC Utter BS that cuff adjustments can not accomplish the same. I just demonstrated this myself, but you are too self serving and tied up in your own way of doing things to acknowledge it. I adjusted my cuff angle a bunch, and with the ski flat / floating / gliding, I went from "bow-legeed" to "knock kneed". My knees each moved like 1/2"! How is that not the EXACT SAME THING THAT A HARD WEDGE DOES? Again...explain how changing the angle of my ski to tib fib axis "my way" did not change the angle of my ski to tib fib axis. It did. It did the same thing that your wedges did...just not as precisely.
Angles are angles. To say it is different is utter BS. I will indeed agree that Angle for angle cuff adjustments are not nearly as effective, because a cuff adjustment has to work around the mushy boot liner. 5 degrees on the cuff is probably lilke 1.5-2 degrees on a wedge, but it still has the same net effect. The boot now has a kink in it, that the line must accommodate. But the net effect is there is an angle change. That means you end up changing how your foot ant lower leg compress the liner. But the net effect is the SAME. The angle of the ski on the snow changes relative to the angel of the tib fib axis. You "Boot Cant" guys who claim it is not the same are just self serving and full of sales hype. Cuff adjustments do the same thing...they are just far less ideal, and require much larger angles because of the mush of the liner.
I am a Mech Engineer and P.E....so don't tell me I do not know angles, geometry, vectors, forces, moments etc.
@@shooter7a Your comment makes sense, but I THINK the reason for no relying on the cuffs, is so that your your shins and calves are aligned comfortably in your boots, and sometimes the cuffs are not enough, depending on how much cant you need... I had my my boot cuffs maxed and while it helped a bunch it wasn't enough...
@@ryanlee8459 I agree that cuff adjustments are not as good as a wedge or grinding the base, like with a full world cup plug boot. But a cuff still works to some degree. People who claim that cuff does nothing are plain wrong.
The measurer said her stance was appropriate for her height???? It should be for the leg spacing that is aligned with the hip socket or stance used. So for a narrow pelvic girdle the natural stance will be closer than a person with wide hips. A downhill racer will be more aligned with the stance they hold in a tuck. Whereas, a slalom skier will want to be slightly bull-legged so the ski can get on the edge faster. Note that most women will have a tendency to be knock-kneed, whereas men will have a tendency to be bull-legged.
If the skier has a severe knock knee stance then boot or binding wedges will be necessary to move the knees outward. If the adjustment is small, a cuff alignment will usually suffice. Note that generally only high end boots have cuff alignment adjustments. The final adjustment is to look at the tracks of a skier going straight down the fall-line on a pretty flat surface the skis should either leave a perfectly flat mark on the snow or show wandering to both sides of the ski track. After buying new ski boots it will take some time for a liner to settle in, and the test will have to be repeated. Stuffing a card or several cards held together between the cuff and shell and doing this for several runs and seeing what works best will be the final test. Then you can then try cuff alignment or cants on the shelll or binding that mimic the thickness of the play cards.
Thanks