Whoever in chat said they think healers shouldn't have to dps; no. SL was hella fun because you got to balance doing fat healer damage with healing properly. Now healing is mad boring and you do little baby dps.
I had this conversation with a guildie. My point was essentially "So you want healers to use every single gcd for healing? What if they mess up one gcd? What if, with that design, a dps or the tank makes a mistake and leads to more damage taken?" This would lead to an INSANE design philosophy and make playing healer complete hell.
I'm not done watching but the conversation at the start about how the community self destructs is really correct, because of people complaining healing is boring and tanks are too OP we now have a bigger shortage of both I feel and anyone who wants to learn the role just cant do it without getting overwhelmed and on top of that getting flamed and someone leaving the key with no room for both roles to even practice or learn from their mistakes since they do not get to see the whole key completed. So we get players who play strong at the start but once they progress further into the dungeon their skill falls off. As my final note the tank changes were completely unnecessary but the community can blame it self for wanting it.
As an ex healer main, i really strongly dislike the healing changes. I feel like the changes absolutely butchered my main which was resto druid. As fun as the spec is still, m+ is so brutal and unfun and i feel like i have to work so insanely absolutely brutally hard compared to other specs i don’t enjoy as much. Im sure these changes weren’t intended to hit so damn hard on druid but it sucks. Ok thats all just piggybacking off your last statement there lol. Yeah the community really shoots itself in the foot often. I don’t know why the whiners are so loud in wow specifically. I cant think of another game that has this issue equally as badly.
Certain iterations of tanks have been too op. If the only solution to get people to play tanks is to make them unkillable, totally self-reliant, and do almost as much dps as normal dps then why even have healers in the game. I don't think there is really a solution unless they plan on phasing out one of the roles to something else.
@@prod.bygygahurts304 They wanted to purely heal and they got their way but turns out it's not a free coasting role anymore and are struggling (the whiners who just wanted to heal and weren't keen on pressing a few dps buttons in downtime that is). I played Resto druid for season 4 of DF and I enjoyed it till War Within released and its been a pain, my favorite thing to do was to cat weave.
@@DoubleMeatpalace Tanks dont have to be unkillable but right now they mess up 1 global defensive and they get one shot in keys starting at +8 maybe even lower. The role of the tank is to keep threat and enemies on it so it should be self reliant in its own survival in some part. Also you have dps players to heal who take damage from bleeds and other DoTs along with aoe damage you aren't running a dungeon with 4 tanks and 1 healer.
With comments like, I don’t even need ice bound here or that is the least damage I’ve ever taken or wow we did too much damage. I think your being close minded on the power augmentation brings to a group when played well. They also reduce damage quite a bit. There is a reason 99% of the highest keys have one. It isn’t fantasy, it works.
The general dislike for Augmentation Evokers in Metro’s view seems to stem primarily from their performance in PUG groups. The skill gap between a good Aug and a bad Aug is significant, making it a risky choice. For PUGs, where minimizing the risk of key depletion is crucial, it’s often safer to invite a traditional DPS instead of an Augmentation Evoker.
@@THWLR14 that's my exact thoughts! Me not taking damage when Im expecting to doesn't actually help us too. But ya we looked at the log of this run afterwards and the damage loss is substantial even though this guy is the best Aug we have seen all season.
Problem is there are way to many aug who suck. I had one complain about dps in a key and as the tank i was only 50k overall behind him with his 'buff' bar.
just fyi, on the throw cleaver ability of the minibosses (technically all cleavers in the entire dungeon). you are never supposed to just survive one. they always need to be thrown into mobs (obviously), or, if not possible, soaked by the tank. they easily do 10-12 million damage on a 13, they are not meant to be survivable by non-tanks. tanks can easily soak them without a cd no problem, dps and healers can't. there is just never a reason for the tank to not soak them if they cant hit mobs. because if the tank doesnt, a dps has to burn a major def cd or, which is more likely, will just outright die, because it is expected for the tank to soak it, as there is no reason not to do it. if a dps gets both, you should aim one cleaver into a mob and the tank should soak the other one. otherwise it's just an unnecessary use of a def cd, or, like here, most likely they just die. in higher keys you will even die through def bds other than immunities.
I don't try to soak them because it would mean running the mob all around chasing these people. If they need me to soak it, they often run behind me, or otherwise I just let them survive it on their own. Regardless of what you have said here, I have seen many people use a CD and survive no problem. There is no concern with using a defensive cd here either way, as there is no use for it until the second phase of the boss, and that's many minutes away from that point.
@@heythereguysitsMetro im just saying, it is the standard strat. if they get both cleavers like the aug, you need to soak one. me, as an enhance with just around 7m hp, I get one shot from a 12 mil hit even through my strongest defensive even from full hp. the aug failed here, but he still would have died if he had positioned correctly. I also guarantee you he died from the first cleaver, even if the 2nd one would've hit him too. they also cant aim the cleaver into one mob and position behind you themselves to soak the other one. you will need to do it. I'm guessing even in this run the evoker got nervous because you weren't going to soak for him and he tried to do something weird. having the tank soak excess cleavers is just the standard thing to do. there is absolutely zero upside to not doing it that way. you burn a defensive or have a death that you just dont need to have. also, the defensive might not be up from previous pulls. or it can be better used against rotspew when he's spitting on people. I'm just giving you a heads up here. it is the standard strat. if you dont do it, people will expect you to do it and you will have easily avoidable deaths. You probably already had them in your keys. in any case, if you keep going up in keys, the defensive cd argument becomes completely invalidated, because other than bubble or bop people will just die through them anyway. you can easily soak the cleavers without moving the mobs. they stand still during it. in fact, moving them in the first place is not that easy, because one of them just throws flesh and doesn't move much. the other one fixates and can easily be moved back after. again, I'm just informing you of this, that people will expect you to soak a cleaver for them, if they cant aim it into a mob. that goes for both the assistants as well as the flesh crafter trash mobs throughout the dungeon. if you don't do it, you will have deaths or unnecessarily burned defensives. but in most cases, it will be deaths. like in this run.
I have already thought this through, and make the decision I feel like is best for everyone. if they are going to die, they will need to come to me. I have gotten too much flak for moving the mobs as it is.
@@heythereguysitsMetro okay, sure. I just wanted to make sure you're aware of it. Because that is the standard strat that everyone expects and it's also how this mechanic needs to be handled. Just telling you, because it will probably lead to some deaths and possibly blame at some point. but you can play however you want. btw how do you move the mobs that much anyway? one of them basically never moves because he just throws flesh, the other one runs with fixate and just needs to be brought back to the other one. the dps are moving them more with the fixate... you dont need to chase the player with the cleaver around, just stand next to the mob in the path of the cleaver
Gratz on the key. I've been trying to time this for the portal for a few attempts now. I wanted to ask. Would you recommend pulling that gatekeeper in the first pull in like a weekly 10?
Ret doing 14mil dps on the first pull. As great as those numbers feel. We really need a stat squish or we gonna go to 100mil at the end of the next expansion.
that was baby dps lol,ret is pretty bellow mid atm,it only looks good because its easy,so when you play with mid players that are on a high ceiling dps class,ret can end up looking good,but theres a reason it doesnt exist over 15 keys,bad dps and zero utility...witch is ironic considering paladin you would think would be king of utility,but it rly isnt
At this lvl regardless of your team comp if you manage to time with 1M30+ on the timer left it means there is room to time +14 of that key with the same team. There are premade teams who do 14-15-16s without aug, and they do complete faster, but thats because they find synergy elsewhere then just picking an aug. (ex: druid tank, monk heal/ warr dps/rogue/surviv hunt is one that you can watch footage of , full melee). but they also do have good awareness & good communication. Full premade team can fail keys 10 times more often than pug players so they have more experience/knowledge overall within a season. Good pug teams are quite often made of players who have tank/heal or did over 150+runs as dps within the season because they know & experienced enough situations to attempt their best to see them happen again. People need to stop comparing gameplay they see on youtube from premade teams who had 0.1% title almost every m+ season since BFA/SL and runs 400+keys each season, to pug groups who are making completly normal mistakes that these premade guyz made many times the 2/3 first weeks of the season & solved & moved on to harder approach. When a player spends 4hours in the game, solo dps queue & complete 1 run , of course he will progress slower knowledge wise compared to a group of 5 chaining 8+ runs in the same time amount. Always watch for amount of runs total when picking a "flavor of the month specs" or 'aug'
The Augmentation Evoker can't get chosen to play the mechanic on the last boss anymore as far as I know. My brother has been playing Augmentation all season and basically would just barely make it or die to the debuff that instantly kills when taking too long. The past 4 weeks or so he wasn't chosen a single time anymore though.
I stopped playing half way through shadowlands, the mythics were really damn fun though. NW was by far my favorite. Current retail gives access to this content?
shadowlands was terrible and will always be terrible, also for necro skip priest and aug should know what to do, just get on a 3 person mount, 2 other people get on, priest mind soothes and fades to skip necromancer pack by himself, evoker rescues the 3 seater mount passed necro
GG on the 13! Certainly not a key I'd enjoy attempting lol. I think I'd rather swallow glass than try healing a 13 NW or Stonevault or Dawnbreaker lmao. Shadowlands had *some good dungeons in it (certainly more evened out than in BFA where some were amazing and others were just disastrous) It's just a shame the lore and writing of Shadowlands sucked ass.
Does no one see the evoker dmg bar? Hover over the transparent bit ffs. If Aug is SOOOO bad, why is it in even world first key? What pulls change because aug is there? Time how fast each packs dies. Stfu about aug
We are talking about aug in 13s not 19s brother. You are aware things are different between the keystone levels right? Aug sucks man, sorry. This key proves it. This was the best aug by a mile I have seen all season, and we still end up with almost no value from it. And his DPS contribution is horrid. If we had two copies of the paladin we would have double upgraded the key. Learn Devastation is my recommendation!
I agree with SL being a better M+ experience but the systems were worse in SL. The dungeons were so much better, Halls, DoS, SD etc. and even even played them for 3 seasons straight. Just imagine we were looking at having to play Stonevault for 3 seasons in a row. But since DF they keep adding these old crappy dungeons back into the rotation. Some are ok (Freehold, Junkyard) but most I really didn't need (Vortex, SBG, Temple) and on top we're getting Theatar of Pain now. I hope they cut a wing out and rework a lot of trash packs. Otherwise this dungeon will be horrible again.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 91 | คู่เอก "คมอาวุธ vs อเล็กเซย์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V0RkEfYFsgM/mqdefault.jpg)
Whoever in chat said they think healers shouldn't have to dps; no. SL was hella fun because you got to balance doing fat healer damage with healing properly. Now healing is mad boring and you do little baby dps.
100% and meta / most picked healer often end up being the one with the best damage output regardless of their utility.
@@Whimsykiller agreed!
Honestly yeah, I like to maximize my DPS when I play a healer, it's why I loved doing keys as a MW monk in s3 of DF.
I had this conversation with a guildie. My point was essentially "So you want healers to use every single gcd for healing? What if they mess up one gcd? What if, with that design, a dps or the tank makes a mistake and leads to more damage taken?" This would lead to an INSANE design philosophy and make playing healer complete hell.
Good job brother. You are killing these keys. So good to see.
Thanks, not really though haha. This was a really rocky ride to get to this point.
grats my man. Can't believe i missed this one
Ya, this was a real big one. Really happy with the results here.
I'm not done watching but the conversation at the start about how the community self destructs is really correct, because of people complaining healing is boring and tanks are too OP we now have a bigger shortage of both I feel and anyone who wants to learn the role just cant do it without getting overwhelmed and on top of that getting flamed and someone leaving the key with no room for both roles to even practice or learn from their mistakes since they do not get to see the whole key completed. So we get players who play strong at the start but once they progress further into the dungeon their skill falls off.
As my final note the tank changes were completely unnecessary but the community can blame it self for wanting it.
As an ex healer main, i really strongly dislike the healing changes. I feel like the changes absolutely butchered my main which was resto druid. As fun as the spec is still, m+ is so brutal and unfun and i feel like i have to work so insanely absolutely brutally hard compared to other specs i don’t enjoy as much.
Im sure these changes weren’t intended to hit so damn hard on druid but it sucks. Ok thats all just piggybacking off your last statement there lol.
Yeah the community really shoots itself in the foot often. I don’t know why the whiners are so loud in wow specifically. I cant think of another game that has this issue equally as badly.
Certain iterations of tanks have been too op. If the only solution to get people to play tanks is to make them unkillable, totally self-reliant, and do almost as much dps as normal dps then why even have healers in the game. I don't think there is really a solution unless they plan on phasing out one of the roles to something else.
@@prod.bygygahurts304 They wanted to purely heal and they got their way but turns out it's not a free coasting role anymore and are struggling (the whiners who just wanted to heal and weren't keen on pressing a few dps buttons in downtime that is). I played Resto druid for season 4 of DF and I enjoyed it till War Within released and its been a pain, my favorite thing to do was to cat weave.
@@DoubleMeatpalace Tanks dont have to be unkillable but right now they mess up 1 global defensive and they get one shot in keys starting at +8 maybe even lower. The role of the tank is to keep threat and enemies on it so it should be self reliant in its own survival in some part. Also you have dps players to heal who take damage from bleeds and other DoTs along with aoe damage you aren't running a dungeon with 4 tanks and 1 healer.
Ya sadly, the community really makes the game worse more than anything else, in terms of what they ask for.
congrats Metro!
Thanks! This was a huge key for me!
With comments like, I don’t even need ice bound here or that is the least damage I’ve ever taken or wow we did too much damage. I think your being close minded on the power augmentation brings to a group when played well. They also reduce damage quite a bit. There is a reason 99% of the highest keys have one. It isn’t fantasy, it works.
The general dislike for Augmentation Evokers in Metro’s view seems to stem primarily from their performance in PUG groups. The skill gap between a good Aug and a bad Aug is significant, making it a risky choice. For PUGs, where minimizing the risk of key depletion is crucial, it’s often safer to invite a traditional DPS instead of an Augmentation Evoker.
Well aug with ara trinket, can give up to 5k primary stats wich is a huge increase
@@THWLR14 that's my exact thoughts! Me not taking damage when Im expecting to doesn't actually help us too.
But ya we looked at the log of this run afterwards and the damage loss is substantial even though this guy is the best Aug we have seen all season.
Problem is there are way to many aug who suck. I had one complain about dps in a key and as the tank i was only 50k overall behind him with his 'buff' bar.
just fyi, on the throw cleaver ability of the minibosses (technically all cleavers in the entire dungeon). you are never supposed to just survive one. they always need to be thrown into mobs (obviously), or, if not possible, soaked by the tank. they easily do 10-12 million damage on a 13, they are not meant to be survivable by non-tanks. tanks can easily soak them without a cd no problem, dps and healers can't. there is just never a reason for the tank to not soak them if they cant hit mobs. because if the tank doesnt, a dps has to burn a major def cd or, which is more likely, will just outright die, because it is expected for the tank to soak it, as there is no reason not to do it.
if a dps gets both, you should aim one cleaver into a mob and the tank should soak the other one. otherwise it's just an unnecessary use of a def cd, or, like here, most likely they just die. in higher keys you will even die through def bds other than immunities.
I don't try to soak them because it would mean running the mob all around chasing these people. If they need me to soak it, they often run behind me, or otherwise I just let them survive it on their own. Regardless of what you have said here, I have seen many people use a CD and survive no problem.
There is no concern with using a defensive cd here either way, as there is no use for it until the second phase of the boss, and that's many minutes away from that point.
@@heythereguysitsMetro im just saying, it is the standard strat. if they get both cleavers like the aug, you need to soak one. me, as an enhance with just around 7m hp, I get one shot from a 12 mil hit even through my strongest defensive even from full hp. the aug failed here, but he still would have died if he had positioned correctly. I also guarantee you he died from the first cleaver, even if the 2nd one would've hit him too. they also cant aim the cleaver into one mob and position behind you themselves to soak the other one. you will need to do it. I'm guessing even in this run the evoker got nervous because you weren't going to soak for him and he tried to do something weird.
having the tank soak excess cleavers is just the standard thing to do. there is absolutely zero upside to not doing it that way. you burn a defensive or have a death that you just dont need to have. also, the defensive might not be up from previous pulls. or it can be better used against rotspew when he's spitting on people.
I'm just giving you a heads up here. it is the standard strat. if you dont do it, people will expect you to do it and you will have easily avoidable deaths. You probably already had them in your keys.
in any case, if you keep going up in keys, the defensive cd argument becomes completely invalidated, because other than bubble or bop people will just die through them anyway.
you can easily soak the cleavers without moving the mobs. they stand still during it. in fact, moving them in the first place is not that easy, because one of them just throws flesh and doesn't move much. the other one fixates and can easily be moved back after.
again, I'm just informing you of this, that people will expect you to soak a cleaver for them, if they cant aim it into a mob. that goes for both the assistants as well as the flesh crafter trash mobs throughout the dungeon. if you don't do it, you will have deaths or unnecessarily burned defensives. but in most cases, it will be deaths. like in this run.
I have already thought this through, and make the decision I feel like is best for everyone.
if they are going to die, they will need to come to me. I have gotten too much flak for moving the mobs as it is.
@@heythereguysitsMetro okay, sure. I just wanted to make sure you're aware of it. Because that is the standard strat that everyone expects and it's also how this mechanic needs to be handled. Just telling you, because it will probably lead to some deaths and possibly blame at some point. but you can play however you want.
btw how do you move the mobs that much anyway? one of them basically never moves because he just throws flesh, the other one runs with fixate and just needs to be brought back to the other one. the dps are moving them more with the fixate... you dont need to chase the player with the cleaver around, just stand next to the mob in the path of the cleaver
@@MrAlathiel You mentioned the other mobs too right? I was referring to everywhere, not just this one spot.
Only just got this done on a 12 it’s one of the hardest for sure. Always goes really well and falls apart so quickly 😂
@@jamesdixon4232 ya the bosses are huge walls
First time seeing your gameplay. You're a very good tank. Gratz on the key.
@@thundergodd6086 thanks! We got an enormous amount of gameplay videos here you can find on the spreadsheet in the description!
Gratz on the key. I've been trying to time this for the portal for a few attempts now. I wanted to ask. Would you recommend pulling that gatekeeper in the first pull in like a weekly 10?
Absolutely, provided you are lusting there. If not, then no.
Nice, congrats! NW is one of the harder ones, I barely timed a 12 after weeks of attempts.
Ya, that's how it was here with 13
Ret doing 14mil dps on the first pull. As great as those numbers feel. We really need a stat squish or we gonna go to 100mil at the end of the next expansion.
Ya they have said they will do one with Midnight, I believe.
that was baby dps lol,ret is pretty bellow mid atm,it only looks good because its easy,so when you play with mid players that are on a high ceiling dps class,ret can end up looking good,but theres a reason it doesnt exist over 15 keys,bad dps and zero utility...witch is ironic considering paladin you would think would be king of utility,but it rly isnt
priest finally got the footage they deserve
Haha
Personally I think healing has been my number 1 role. I have always thought Disc priest was the perfect healing kit. Disc has always been my number 1.
Gotcha. Sadly it really sucks in the pug world.
At this lvl regardless of your team comp if you manage to time with 1M30+ on the timer left it means there is room to time +14 of that key with the same team. There are premade teams who do 14-15-16s without aug, and they do complete faster, but thats because they find synergy elsewhere then just picking an aug. (ex: druid tank, monk heal/ warr dps/rogue/surviv hunt is one that you can watch footage of , full melee). but they also do have good awareness & good communication. Full premade team can fail keys 10 times more often than pug players so they have more experience/knowledge overall within a season. Good pug teams are quite often made of players who have tank/heal or did over 150+runs as dps within the season because they know & experienced enough situations to attempt their best to see them happen again. People need to stop comparing gameplay they see on youtube from premade teams who had 0.1% title almost every m+ season since BFA/SL and runs 400+keys each season, to pug groups who are making completly normal mistakes that these premade guyz made many times the 2/3 first weeks of the season & solved & moved on to harder approach. When a player spends 4hours in the game, solo dps queue & complete 1 run , of course he will progress slower knowledge wise compared to a group of 5 chaining 8+ runs in the same time amount. Always watch for amount of runs total when picking a "flavor of the month specs" or 'aug'
@@TheMrMarkx good thoughts, appreciate that.
vokers in the stonevault and necrotic wake seem to be an issue sometimes
all the times. This was the best one we have played with, and still numerically we were lacking.
The Augmentation Evoker can't get chosen to play the mechanic on the last boss anymore as far as I know.
My brother has been playing Augmentation all season and basically would just barely make it or die to the debuff that instantly kills when taking too long. The past 4 weeks or so he wasn't chosen a single time anymore though.
@@musicxmp3533 ya that makes more sense.
I stopped playing half way through shadowlands, the mythics were really damn fun though. NW was by far my favorite. Current retail gives access to this content?
@@slumberingsam they bring back a few dungeons from the past every season.
Gz on NW
27:56 Augment can't get picked up or all my runs have been a lie.
@@Slamdoxicalz like straight up can't even be picked at all? Ya idk how it works haha
Aug definitely can get picked, unfortunately
Goaliemangay
Haha
shadowlands was terrible and will always be terrible, also for necro skip priest and aug should know what to do, just get on a 3 person mount, 2 other people get on, priest mind soothes and fades to skip necromancer pack by himself, evoker rescues the 3 seater mount passed necro
Incorrect.
GG on the 13!
Certainly not a key I'd enjoy attempting lol. I think I'd rather swallow glass than try healing a 13 NW or Stonevault or Dawnbreaker lmao.
Shadowlands had *some good dungeons in it (certainly more evened out than in BFA where some were amazing and others were just disastrous)
It's just a shame the lore and writing of Shadowlands sucked ass.
Ya I actually really liked the lore of shadowlands but I can see why others didn't. They could have done a lot more with it.
Does no one see the evoker dmg bar? Hover over the transparent bit ffs.
If Aug is SOOOO bad, why is it in even world first key?
What pulls change because aug is there?
Time how fast each packs dies.
Stfu about aug
We are talking about aug in 13s not 19s brother.
You are aware things are different between the keystone levels right?
Aug sucks man, sorry. This key proves it. This was the best aug by a mile I have seen all season, and we still end up with almost no value from it.
And his DPS contribution is horrid. If we had two copies of the paladin we would have double upgraded the key.
Learn Devastation is my recommendation!
I agree with SL being a better M+ experience but the systems were worse in SL. The dungeons were so much better, Halls, DoS, SD etc. and even even played them for 3 seasons straight. Just imagine we were looking at having to play Stonevault for 3 seasons in a row. But since DF they keep adding these old crappy dungeons back into the rotation. Some are ok (Freehold, Junkyard) but most I really didn't need (Vortex, SBG, Temple) and on top we're getting Theatar of Pain now. I hope they cut a wing out and rework a lot of trash packs. Otherwise this dungeon will be horrible again.
There's so much irony that you're talking about SL being a better M+ experience but then complaining about ToP.
@@MrSyltphademus hahaa ya what was that about