You should have measured both subs together after you measured them individually to see if they cancel each other out when you moved them to the back wall.
When comparing results in REW, I like to use the 'All SPL' tab and de-select the measurements I don't care about. Makes it easy to see the differences.
I have a UMIK 1 mic that I purchased about a year ago and still in the box but fortunately I am getting close on my ht renovation to start playing with REW. Perfect timing George!
Great video! I am anxiously waiting for the next one. I want to do something similar in my home theater, and this video is a great starting point and motivation for me..
Great video 👍 I also have 2 subs (SVS SB2000) placed at the front firing into the room. When I get the time I’m now going to have a bit play around with positioning 😉
Honestly, you might want to reconsider having both subs on the back wall. I know bass is considered to be non directional, but ime it’s easy to tell when subs are placed behind you. At the very least, I would keep sub #2 in the front corner. The response was equally good with the Speedwoofer up front anyway. When running 2 subs, I prefer to have my subs up front if at all possible. Considering the action is happening in front of you, I want to feel the energy coming from the front of the room as well.
I’m looking at the drop off on your measurements and wondering if you had the crossover enabled on the receiver? It seems like everything is dropping off after 70 Hz.
You want to generate some kind of noise with REW then run live analysis while you move the subs around on a dolly (furniture mover). Once you find good position candidates, do sweeps in each and remember to look at the decay time. Golden sound has a video on this I believe (member not with subs).
Great video BTW. When I look at your room and the measurements they make sense. By corner loading the first sub, you saw a really good increase in volume and smoothness as opposed to having on an "open" wall at first. The 2nd sub was in a corner to start but crowded with the gear, so moving it to the back saw an increase, but not as much of a difference as the first. I would suggest pulling them both a little further from the corner and try it. I may be reaching in the depths of my memory, but I remember a rule of thumb was the disance from the corner wall opposite the driver was approx. the diameter of the driver- i.e. a good place to start was 12" away from the wall for a 12" woofer.
Two questions 1) Why do you select “L” or “Rl for output in REW. Shouldn’t you select “LFE”? 2) Surprised you have not jumped and bought Bass Control? Far superior to Bass Management IMO when it comes to auto alignment of subs with timing and phase etc.
Have you put your room measurements into a room mode calculator? Knowing where the nulls are expected in a particular room helps with sub placement. Helped me quickly identify the center of the back wall in my room.
Said the same thing elsewhere herein, along with suggesting higher XO on the front stage, measuring all subs together, and spending a few bucks on miniDSP 2x4HD to allow for more granular tuning by way of delays and possibly phase inversion, which would probably cost less than the sales tax on the Valencia seating.
I'm wondering if some of your nulls around 75-80HZ are the high freq. roll-off from the settings in the amp or a Xover on the sub itself. I didn't see where you ran the sub full range.
I just moved to a new house with a different layout for my "home theater" with wood floors and an open left side and am wondering about the difference in the quality of measurement buying something expensive like a U-MIK or using my standard-issue mic from Denon that came with my receiver. Would the difference be substantial enough to warrant the extra cost of a brand new mic. I really can't move my subs around due to space limitations (Klipsch SPL-120 F/R corner, Klipsch RP-1200 SW B/R corner (using a BT connection) next to my MLP, which is against the back wall. When I get all the speakers reattached, I'll have a 7.2.4 system.
Btw. Did you try measuring the RBH facing front in the B L corner? Also, I didn’t catch if you disabled the 70hz crossover ?? Love these vids!! Ps. Isn’t there a way to overlay the graphs for each measurement rather than separate little boxes? 🎉
I am a new user to REW. I have the software loaded, I am using the Minidsp Umik1 microphone and have added the config file for the mic into REW. I seem to be having a similar problem as many many people. REW seems to having difficulties connecting to the mic. I have changed cables and even tried using a USB hub but nothing works. Did you have similar problems? What settings did you use to get the PC’s HDMI output to connect to the input on the AV receiver. Thanks
@ Thank you we’ll Ibtried 3 different laptops and finally the 3rd one (Dell business model) worked. I think there may have been an issue with the usb power being supplied by the first two laptops. So I have it working and can take measurements but Instill get a message about a low signal to noise ratio (16 or 18 to 1).
Those dips may have something to do with the windows at your back. My room also has the same problem, i have a big sindow at my back and it sucks much of my bass energy and resonates a lot.
hi i have a denon x8500ha en i have the multieq app and i want to use the multeq-x on my computer but as soon as it connects with my avr it goes to the multeq app and the picture on the tv also goes to a standaard audessey app frame so i cant connect the multeq-x programe on the computer .can you tell me how i can remove the app or bipass it so i can use the multeq-x progrem i try to reset the avr and i hve taken the app of my phone but noting helps and the avr still conects to the app ride away.
Hi just quick question i noticed sub facing towards the back wall turn it round i they're enclosed subs,I found using rear port subs about a foot away from the wall facing gave desire effect?
Looking forward to part 2. Can you also try a measurement with the drivers facing the wall? In theory that way you will minimize SBIR effects (although admittedly it won't look that good)
Hi George, great video. Have you thought about using a mini dsp HD? That will help you set the delays of each sub, and you can eq them separately. The Onkyo rz50 doesn't allow you to do it without the mini dsp.
Out of curiosity, who among the viewers that have played with REW have used the Room Sim function and found it to be helpful in streamlining the location of multiple subs? And I’d certainly agree with SixMeter in the measurement of summed - and I’d go further to suggest aligned - subs before attempting any EQ and Dirac / Audyssey, etc room correction. As it’s not something I’ve yet played with, I’m a bit more on the fence about the mixing of ported vs sealed subs that some folks ride a hobby horse over - thoughts / anecdotes on that?
I’ve not used the room sim because my room is not anything like a box. I have several nooks, a 45 degree wall, several large openings to downstairs rooms and several openings to upstairs rooms. Just seemed like a waste of time to try and play with it.
@ Fair enough. It is a very rudimentary utility that works only with simple rectilinear rooms. It’s my understanding there are software options that can accommodate more irregular shapes, but their cost and learning curves are very steep. For us amateurs with more time to spare than money, sometimes repetitive iteration is the only option.
Dumb question - is the output only playing through the sub? Is that controlled through REW or do you have to unplug other speakers so that you only measure the sub? Also interested to see sub/main integration.
REW is content mining. Just get a good room correction software like with an Anthem Arc or Dirac live. REW is for non independent subwoofer outs. Get bass shakers on your seats and call it a day.
Hey. Before you get too many comments, I wonder how do you feel about this. So yesterday, I had a "bright" idea come to me out of nowhere. I haven't really seen anyone talk about this, but... how do you feel about fighting a cancellation null with EQ? I have two subwoofers. 1 up front firing at me and 1 smaller one next to the couch facing perpendicular compared to the other one. It barely fits and won't be able to rotate it 90 degrees because the cables would dig in to the wall or the couch. I can align them all I want, but I always get a cancellation null around 75hz. So my idea was what about playing with eq to try to avoid the cancellation. I understand mso could fix this with an all pass filter, but this is free, and I don't have a dsp yet. I also don't have any way to move them around at all. So I played around with time alignment and eq in REW and did some different EQs with less and less db take away with different Q width and found a happy medium. I took out 3db from 1 subwoofer that closer to me (smaller and less powerful) and the null is flattened out but.... i lost 2-3db overall spl in a 15-20hz range just so i don't have a -6db ull in 5hz range. Thoughts? Btw, I have pictures on avs forum in the Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences topic. You could also try this and cover it in your upcoming video. Thanks!! ( Its Cee Ess O btw if you wonder) Oh and also... i am not trying to tell you how to do stuff. I believe REW recommends not to lave input and output on default output (input settings) because windows can mess with volume and who knows what else
If it's a hard cancellation, that's it. leave it alone. Any eq will just be dumping more energy into it. which can introduce distortion, or worse, driver failure. When doing EQ, you pretty much shave off the peaks, like a hair cut. Wide boosts for a larger area are ok, but dips are caused by cancellations. You don't really want to fix every dip if you want the best sound. An allpass would only be applicable if you have more than one driver not mating properly. as in, If you have multiple subs or mains and subs. If AFTER timing and polarity is optimized, you have one spot where one driver has a phase inversion, you can then apply an inversion to the other driver (allpass) at that spot, to give you the summation. I think I posted a vid about allpass.
@@kewlbug Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify; My idea is NOT to boost any spl in a dip. I put a -4db (minus!) EQ at like 75 or 80hz with a 5.0 Q width (is it called width?) to turn down the volume on 1 subwoofer. When I use the time alignment and see the predicted output of the original Right subwoofer and the left subwoofer with the new eq, the predicted line shows the cancellation is gone. I do lose a little but if spl on a wider range. As I said before, I lose 2-3 db between 70-95 db, so I don't get -6db dip at 80 or so. If you check that forum, you can see it with pictures. This is all just predicted stuff. I yet to test it in reality
@@CSOCSO Oh wow, ok that is quite an in depth forum. It's really getting into the weeds if you ask me.. I try to simplify things some. A handful of real world measurements and you can skip alot if not most of it. If you're locked into those front positions, really you just need to time align everything, and then EQ them as one "sub". I see others mentioning the timing reference, so make sure you're doing that. It sounds to me like the sub with no dip is making up for the dip from the other one. If you can take measurements with the proper reference, you might try like George is here. take a handful of locations and sit down with the alignment tool, and see if any of the location combinations are better. At one time I had one in the front right and one in the back left in my room.
@kewlbug yes. There are some dips in 1 subwoofer, and the other one makes up for it as you can see on that black line, which was the predicted sum, but i get a cancellation using the two subs. No sub out of the two would make up anything in there. Am i right? I dont wanna overcomplicate things. It was just a weird idea, and i haven't seen anyone doing this. Thanks again for taking your time looking at that forum and replying to me. Maybe it's something you can try when u get a cancellation dip. It literally takes 10-20 minutes to do a couple of different tests to see at what hz, how much decibel deduction and Q width would give u a better result. I think it's an interesting idea to fix a dip for free.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome I have a similar setup with a RZ50. To have separate calibration for the subs, would you be using a MiniDSP? I can't think of another solution to fine tune the subs independently with RZ50.
@@khurram88Beat me to the punch - that’s only scratching the surface of what the combination of REW and even miniDSP’s most minimal model 2x4HD can deliver. I’d also be inclined to cross the front row higher than even the THX recommended 80Hz, particularly in a very small room, even if the AVR’s sweep and independent channel sweeps via REW indicate their LF capabilities extend to the 40s or lower.
I have two klipsch 14s and at first they didn't sound good. I was so disappointed. Then I moved them 2ft to the left and the other 2ft to the right. LOL, that's all it took. Bass completely destroys my living room now
A trick guys use for placement, is to place the sub at the listening position (literally on your seat. probably stack both to get the height on one) and take measurements around the room. There's some kind of inverse rule that makes this work. The older way is to do this and crawl around the room and listen. lol
@@shaolin95 Definitely old but still works like a charm. Same with using mirrors from the seated position to find reflected waves. I started setting up higher end home theaters and competition car audio back in the early 90's. I would love to do a manual setup like that and then compare it to "new tech" and see how close it is. I get a little skeptical when charts and plots alone are used. Flat frequency curves never sounded all that great to me. I still think a trained person's ear is still the benchmark!
@@shaolin95 How so? what is you amazing newer way? Personally, I'd just move the sub, as I only have a couple locations that are wife approved. A larger room, and multiple subs? I'd do the listening position.
@@shaolin95It is true the subwoofer crawl is nonsense but the original commenter’s advice is the inverse of the subwoofer crawl. The original commenter is suggesting to put the sub at the listening position and then take measurements from different locations; this is very good advice and infinitely more effective than the traditional subwoofer crawl. The way to do it with two or more subs (albeit tedious) is to energize one sub and find its optimal placement (using aforementioned approach) and then while keeping the first sub energized in it’s optimal position in the room repeat the process with the second sub (so on and so forth (again while keeping each preceding sub energized)).
Clearly - both at the back will be as bad as both at the front.... One in each is likely to be better but still allow for the subs to be aligned across or up/down the room. My room is much deeper and my subs "sound" best in the front corners at my centralised listening position. The spread of the best perceived sound is quite localised to within a single square meter in the room. My subwoofers are two pairs of KEF B139s in a push-pull clamshell design, due to small overall cabinet size and my amplifier selection.
In my room they measure horribly in the front. In your room they may measure great in the front. Every room is different. Gotta take measurements to find out.
First of all you one sub is enough for such a small room, second you have unmatched pair of subs so native frequency response is going to be different from each other, third they really shouldn't be facing each other, fourth standing waves, fifth bass traps.
wow times have changed over the decades. back in the 90,s i would just position the subs and set polarities until i got the right feel. these days people need a confirmation reading on a graph to tell them it sounds great. always wonder what reference are they chasing with these measurements. is at mixing room or maybe studio.
Dirac easy. And forget magic beans...just check what the guy that wrote the book joe used for knowledge had to say about it... Basically he said "he has to read the book again" 😂
No, it was never a viable option. Can you hear if you have a dip at 30Hz or 50Hz? Measuring is the only option. Same for time aligning 2 subs, you cannot do this correct without measuring.
Dude, with those two mains having their own subs and using two subs in a room that small obviously is no good. You're not letting your mains do their job. You don't need a sub. My opinion is to use one as a sub for the surround channels....move one to the back wall, with the driver facing you, if you absolutely need to use a sub. The best case is don't use a sub. Your rooms' too small and those mains can do the job just fine.
I get better measurements with my ears . No I'm not a microphone or a computer. But when it comes to listening that's what I'm doing in my sweet spot. A computer can do some things . But I listen with my ears. Some of us don't have extreme hearing. I trust my ears more. For my four subs , two to the left and right of my main seat , and two Symmetry up front under my fl , fr tower , and one coupled with my center channel. It all sounds great . You would have to learn how to listen to your speakers. For people that cannot afford the r e.w
What a mess on the bass area. What I don’t understand is why you were telling your followers “it sounds amazing” in every previous video. That is the reason I don’t believe in TH-camrs when they say something without any proof. 😂
You should have measured both subs together after you measured them individually to see if they cancel each other out when you moved them to the back wall.
Stay tuned for the next video.
@GeorgeTheaterAtHome that's how you do it haha but I have been enjoying these vids tho honestly
When comparing results in REW, I like to use the 'All SPL' tab and de-select the measurements I don't care about. Makes it easy to see the differences.
I have a UMIK 1 mic that I purchased about a year ago and still in the box but fortunately I am getting close on my ht renovation to start playing with REW. Perfect timing George!
Great video! I am anxiously waiting for the next one. I want to do something similar in my home theater, and this video is a great starting point and motivation for me..
Test again with subs facing wall. Increased SPL and smoothed response in my room.
Now you can spread the front main speakers wider and toe them in, it should create a larger sound stage
Great video 👍
I also have 2 subs (SVS SB2000) placed at the front firing into the room. When I get the time I’m now going to have a bit play around with positioning 😉
Honestly, you might want to reconsider having both subs on the back wall. I know bass is considered to be non directional, but ime it’s easy to tell when subs are placed behind you. At the very least, I would keep sub #2 in the front corner. The response was equally good with the Speedwoofer up front anyway.
When running 2 subs, I prefer to have my subs up front if at all possible. Considering the action is happening in front of you, I want to feel the energy coming from the front of the room as well.
I’m looking at the drop off on your measurements and wondering if you had the crossover enabled on the receiver? It seems like everything is dropping off after 70 Hz.
Or bumped it on the back if that sub had one in the back, I sure have twisted a knob by accident just moving a sub before!
You want to generate some kind of noise with REW then run live analysis while you move the subs around on a dolly (furniture mover). Once you find good position candidates, do sweeps in each and remember to look at the decay time. Golden sound has a video on this I believe (member not with subs).
Great video BTW. When I look at your room and the measurements they make sense. By corner loading the first sub, you saw a really good increase in volume and smoothness as opposed to having on an "open" wall at first. The 2nd sub was in a corner to start but crowded with the gear, so moving it to the back saw an increase, but not as much of a difference as the first. I would suggest pulling them both a little further from the corner and try it. I may be reaching in the depths of my memory, but I remember a rule of thumb was the disance from the corner wall opposite the driver was approx. the diameter of the driver- i.e. a good place to start was 12" away from the wall for a 12" woofer.
Two questions
1) Why do you select “L” or “Rl for output in REW. Shouldn’t you select “LFE”?
2) Surprised you have not jumped and bought Bass Control? Far superior to Bass Management IMO when it comes to auto alignment of subs with timing and phase etc.
Have you put your room measurements into a room mode calculator? Knowing where the nulls are expected in a particular room helps with sub placement. Helped me quickly identify the center of the back wall in my room.
Good tip!
Said the same thing elsewhere herein, along with suggesting higher XO on the front stage, measuring all subs together, and spending a few bucks on miniDSP 2x4HD to allow for more granular tuning by way of delays and possibly phase inversion, which would probably cost less than the sales tax on the Valencia seating.
I'm wondering if some of your nulls around 75-80HZ are the high freq. roll-off from the settings in the amp or a Xover on the sub itself. I didn't see where you ran the sub full range.
When comparing graphs ...why don't you overlay one over the other so we can see the difference
Excellent suggestion. Thanks!
Would definitely help good video though
Use the All SPL tab to compare
Exactly what I'm looking for!... thanks looking forward to next video
Awesome, thank you!
I just moved to a new house with a different layout for my "home theater" with wood floors and an open left side and am wondering about the difference in the quality of measurement buying something expensive like a U-MIK or using my standard-issue mic from Denon that came with my receiver. Would the difference be substantial enough to warrant the extra cost of a brand new mic. I really can't move my subs around due to space limitations (Klipsch SPL-120 F/R corner, Klipsch RP-1200 SW B/R corner (using a BT connection) next to my MLP, which is against the back wall. When I get all the speakers reattached, I'll have a 7.2.4 system.
Btw. Did you try measuring the RBH facing front in the B L corner? Also, I didn’t catch if you disabled the 70hz crossover ?? Love these vids!!
Ps. Isn’t there a way to overlay the graphs for each measurement rather than separate little boxes? 🎉
I am a new user to REW. I have the software loaded, I am using the Minidsp Umik1 microphone and have added the config file for the mic into REW. I seem to be having a similar problem as many many people. REW seems to having difficulties connecting to the mic. I have changed cables and even tried using a USB hub but nothing works. Did you have similar problems? What settings did you use to get the PC’s HDMI output to connect to the input on the AV receiver. Thanks
I have a Mac. It automatically detected the mic after I plugged it in. I also had to go into the system settings to set the audio output to hdmi.
@
Thank you we’ll Ibtried 3 different laptops and finally the 3rd one (Dell business model) worked. I think there may have been an issue with the usb power being supplied by the first two laptops. So I have it working and can take measurements but Instill get a message about a low signal to noise ratio (16 or 18 to 1).
Those dips may have something to do with the windows at your back. My room also has the same problem, i have a big sindow at my back and it sucks much of my bass energy and resonates a lot.
hi i have a denon x8500ha en i have the multieq app and i want to use the multeq-x on my computer but as soon as it connects with my avr it goes to the multeq app and the picture on the tv also goes to a standaard audessey app frame so i cant connect the multeq-x programe on the computer .can you tell me how i can remove the app or bipass it so i can use the multeq-x progrem i try to reset the avr and i hve taken the app of my phone but noting helps and the avr still conects to the app ride away.
good advice brothah
Premature comment. But did you plug the port on the RSL? Also are there phase issues? 🎉
Also.. can you extend REW TO 10/12hz ? For next video
Hi just quick question i noticed sub facing towards the back wall turn it round i they're enclosed subs,I found using rear port subs about a foot away from the wall facing gave desire effect?
You missed the best part: What does the final comibined subs at rear with Dirac look like?
Stay tuned 😉 Working on a future video
Looking forward to part 2.
Can you also try a measurement with the drivers facing the wall? In theory that way you will minimize SBIR effects (although admittedly it won't look that good)
Great idea!
Hi George, great video. Have you thought about using a mini dsp HD? That will help you set the delays of each sub, and you can eq them separately. The Onkyo rz50 doesn't allow you to do it without the mini dsp.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! I do have a miniDSP. Have plans to use it in future videos.
What mic stand are you using for the umic-1
Out of curiosity, who among the viewers that have played with REW have used the Room Sim function and found it to be helpful in streamlining the location of multiple subs? And I’d certainly agree with SixMeter in the measurement of summed - and I’d go further to suggest aligned - subs before attempting any EQ and Dirac / Audyssey, etc room correction.
As it’s not something I’ve yet played with, I’m a bit more on the fence about the mixing of ported vs sealed subs that some folks ride a hobby horse over - thoughts / anecdotes on that?
I’ve not used the room sim because my room is not anything like a box. I have several nooks, a 45 degree wall, several large openings to downstairs rooms and several openings to upstairs rooms. Just seemed like a waste of time to try and play with it.
@ Fair enough. It is a very rudimentary utility that works only with simple rectilinear rooms. It’s my understanding there are software options that can accommodate more irregular shapes, but their cost and learning curves are very steep. For us amateurs with more time to spare than money, sometimes repetitive iteration is the only option.
Does your mic from your avm70 not have usb?
It does have USB. I should try it with REW and compare it with the UMIK-1.
Dumb question - is the output only playing through the sub? Is that controlled through REW or do you have to unplug other speakers so that you only measure the sub? Also interested to see sub/main integration.
Controlled by REW
REW is content mining. Just get a good room correction software like with an Anthem Arc or Dirac live. REW is for non independent subwoofer outs. Get bass shakers on your seats and call it a day.
Yep, the RZ50 has non independent sub outs. REW has been helpful.
@GeorgeTheaterAtHome i have an Rz50 in my bedroom. Definitely need it for that
Hey. Before you get too many comments, I wonder how do you feel about this. So yesterday, I had a "bright" idea come to me out of nowhere. I haven't really seen anyone talk about this, but... how do you feel about fighting a cancellation null with EQ?
I have two subwoofers. 1 up front firing at me and 1 smaller one next to the couch facing perpendicular compared to the other one. It barely fits and won't be able to rotate it 90 degrees because the cables would dig in to the wall or the couch. I can align them all I want, but I always get a cancellation null around 75hz. So my idea was what about playing with eq to try to avoid the cancellation. I understand mso could fix this with an all pass filter, but this is free, and I don't have a dsp yet. I also don't have any way to move them around at all.
So I played around with time alignment and eq in REW and did some different EQs with less and less db take away with different Q width and found a happy medium. I took out 3db from 1 subwoofer that closer to me (smaller and less powerful) and the null is flattened out but.... i lost 2-3db overall spl in a 15-20hz range just so i don't have a -6db ull in 5hz range. Thoughts? Btw, I have pictures on avs forum in the Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences topic.
You could also try this and cover it in your upcoming video. Thanks!!
( Its Cee Ess O btw if you wonder) Oh and also... i am not trying to tell you how to do stuff. I believe REW recommends not to lave input and output on default output (input settings) because windows can mess with volume and who knows what else
If it's a hard cancellation, that's it. leave it alone. Any eq will just be dumping more energy into it. which can introduce distortion, or worse, driver failure.
When doing EQ, you pretty much shave off the peaks, like a hair cut. Wide boosts for a larger area are ok, but dips are caused by cancellations. You don't really want to fix every dip if you want the best sound.
An allpass would only be applicable if you have more than one driver not mating properly. as in, If you have multiple subs or mains and subs. If AFTER timing and polarity is optimized, you have one spot where one driver has a phase inversion, you can then apply an inversion to the other driver (allpass) at that spot, to give you the summation. I think I posted a vid about allpass.
@@kewlbug Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify; My idea is NOT to boost any spl in a dip. I put a -4db (minus!) EQ at like 75 or 80hz with a 5.0 Q width (is it called width?) to turn down the volume on 1 subwoofer. When I use the time alignment and see the predicted output of the original Right subwoofer and the left subwoofer with the new eq, the predicted line shows the cancellation is gone. I do lose a little but if spl on a wider range. As I said before, I lose 2-3 db between 70-95 db, so I don't get -6db dip at 80 or so. If you check that forum, you can see it with pictures. This is all just predicted stuff. I yet to test it in reality
@@CSOCSO Oh wow, ok that is quite an in depth forum. It's really getting into the weeds if you ask me.. I try to simplify things some. A handful of real world measurements and you can skip alot if not most of it. If you're locked into those front positions, really you just need to time align everything, and then EQ them as one "sub". I see others mentioning the timing reference, so make sure you're doing that. It sounds to me like the sub with no dip is making up for the dip from the other one.
If you can take measurements with the proper reference, you might try like George is here. take a handful of locations and sit down with the alignment tool, and see if any of the location combinations are better. At one time I had one in the front right and one in the back left in my room.
@kewlbug yes. There are some dips in 1 subwoofer, and the other one makes up for it as you can see on that black line, which was the predicted sum, but i get a cancellation using the two subs. No sub out of the two would make up anything in there. Am i right? I dont wanna overcomplicate things. It was just a weird idea, and i haven't seen anyone doing this. Thanks again for taking your time looking at that forum and replying to me. Maybe it's something you can try when u get a cancellation dip. It literally takes 10-20 minutes to do a couple of different tests to see at what hz, how much decibel deduction and Q width would give u a better result. I think it's an interesting idea to fix a dip for free.
Does RZ50 have independent sub outs or the same on both?
Not independent, unfortunately
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome I have a similar setup with a RZ50. To have separate calibration for the subs, would you be using a MiniDSP? I can't think of another solution to fine tune the subs independently with RZ50.
@@khurram88Beat me to the punch - that’s only scratching the surface of what the combination of REW and even miniDSP’s most minimal model 2x4HD can deliver.
I’d also be inclined to cross the front row higher than even the THX recommended 80Hz, particularly in a very small room, even if the AVR’s sweep and independent channel sweeps via REW indicate their LF capabilities extend to the 40s or lower.
You don't say where you are measuring from? Or did I miss it? Are you measuring from sub or seat?
The microphone is set at the Main Listening position
I have two klipsch 14s and at first they didn't sound good. I was so disappointed. Then I moved them 2ft to the left and the other 2ft to the right. LOL, that's all it took. Bass completely destroys my living room now
A trick guys use for placement, is to place the sub at the listening position (literally on your seat. probably stack both to get the height on one) and take measurements around the room. There's some kind of inverse rule that makes this work. The older way is to do this and crawl around the room and listen. lol
Old outdated "trick"
@@shaolin95 Definitely old but still works like a charm. Same with using mirrors from the seated position to find reflected waves. I started setting up higher end home theaters and competition car audio back in the early 90's. I would love to do a manual setup like that and then compare it to "new tech" and see how close it is. I get a little skeptical when charts and plots alone are used. Flat frequency curves never sounded all that great to me. I still think a trained person's ear is still the benchmark!
@@shaolin95 How so? what is you amazing newer way?
Personally, I'd just move the sub, as I only have a couple locations that are wife approved. A larger room, and multiple subs? I'd do the listening position.
@@shaolin95It is true the subwoofer crawl is nonsense but the original commenter’s advice is the inverse of the subwoofer crawl. The original commenter is suggesting to put the sub at the listening position and then take measurements from different locations; this is very good advice and infinitely more effective than the traditional subwoofer crawl.
The way to do it with two or more subs (albeit tedious) is to energize one sub and find its optimal placement (using aforementioned approach) and then while keeping the first sub energized in it’s optimal position in the room repeat the process with the second sub (so on and so forth (again while keeping each preceding sub energized)).
Not to be pedantic but I thought you may be interested to know the rule you mention is called the ‘theorem of reciprocity’. Just an FYI
Clearly - both at the back will be as bad as both at the front.... One in each is likely to be better but still allow for the subs to be aligned across or up/down the room.
My room is much deeper and my subs "sound" best in the front corners at my centralised listening position.
The spread of the best perceived sound is quite localised to within a single square meter in the room.
My subwoofers are two pairs of KEF B139s in a push-pull clamshell design, due to small overall cabinet size and my amplifier selection.
What’s wrong with having both subs upfront? That’s how I got mines.
In my room they measure horribly in the front. In your room they may measure great in the front. Every room is different. Gotta take measurements to find out.
@ that is very true, I had to fix mines a bit.
First of all you one sub is enough for such a small room, second you have unmatched pair of subs so native frequency response is going to be different from each other, third they really shouldn't be facing each other, fourth standing waves, fifth bass traps.
I just kept saying "ALL SPL...ALL SPL...for the love of God... ALL SPL"
Your back Surrounds are pretty much blocked by headrest!?!😮
Stay tuned 😉
The subwoofer crawl was debunked.
Yep outdated
More bass to shake the foundation.
wow times have changed over the decades. back in the 90,s i would just position the subs and set polarities until i got the right feel. these days people need a confirmation reading on a graph to tell them it sounds great. always wonder what reference are they chasing with these measurements. is at mixing room or maybe studio.
Video idea: test the new A1 Evo Neuron and compare against Dirac Live, Magic Beans and Audyssey. Which room correction reigns supreme
That would be awesome. (I am only interested in a comparison between Dirac and A1 Evo Neuron TBH)
Dirac easy. And forget magic beans...just check what the guy that wrote the book joe used for knowledge had to say about it... Basically he said "he has to read the book again" 😂
@@shaolin95Source?
He needs a Denon or Marantz receiver for this
Your room is simply to small for such big subwoofers🙂
Subwoofer crawl still a viable option?
Not so good
No, it was never a viable option. Can you hear if you have a dip at 30Hz or 50Hz? Measuring is the only option. Same for time aligning 2 subs, you cannot do this correct without measuring.
Try doing that with almost 200lbs subs🤣
Too heavy!😨
@ I’ll try this out of curiosity but won’t be moving the subs. I have one PB17 and two PB16’s. Gives me an excuse to use the internal EQ each sub has
Dude, with those two mains having their own subs and using two subs in a room that small obviously is no good. You're not letting your mains do their job. You don't need a sub. My opinion is to use one as a sub for the surround channels....move one to the back wall, with the driver facing you, if you absolutely need to use a sub. The best case is don't use a sub. Your rooms' too small and those mains can do the job just fine.
That’s an interesting idea. I hadn’t considered using no sub at all. Now I gotta try it!
@GeorgeTheaterAtHome I'm thinking those mains are fire......light em' up!
I get better measurements with my ears . No I'm not a microphone or a computer. But when it comes to listening that's what I'm doing in my sweet spot. A computer can do some things . But I listen with my ears. Some of us don't have extreme hearing. I trust my ears more. For my four subs , two to the left and right of my main seat , and two Symmetry up front under my fl , fr tower , and one coupled with my center channel. It all sounds great . You would have to learn how to listen to your speakers. For people that cannot afford the r e.w
What a mess on the bass area. What I don’t understand is why you were telling your followers “it sounds amazing” in every previous video. That is the reason I don’t believe in TH-camrs when they say something without any proof. 😂
It sounded amazing, but now I know it can sound even better!