49 day is crazy! Big respect. Dark retreats are a completely different beast. I initially approached one thinking it would simply be an enhanced version of a traditional retreat, which I've always loved. However, it turned out to be much more intense, resembling a prolonged psychedelic journey( constant hallucinations). So my regular Samantha practice was inaccessible, but vipassana was the only experience in the foreground. The highs are really high but the low can be incredibly intense. Imagine a visual representation of the dark night of the soul in front of you for days, open eyes or closed eyes. you would need a lot of preparation to make 7 weeks meaningful and not destabilizing. Impermanence is inexorable there, just free falling. if you don't have enough equanimity it will not be a valuable experience. And also integration is not talk enough in the meditation community, I would love you to interview some Internal Family System therapist, which for me was even more meaningful then meditation practice.
Nice discussion with Lama Justin on dark retreat. Having done a 17 night dark retreat I appreciated understanding illusory nature. The whole point in this sensory deprivation experience is to totally relax, a radical relaxation of one's body, energy, and mind.
I'm enjoying this inmensely because i grew up in an environment where i was expressing myself differently from the rest and was thrown from the classroom even from fam expections because of this. And i have been always in search of these type of retreats.
I performed a 7 day, 6 night dark retreat March 9 - March 16, 2024 -- not long ago. I certainly saw a lot of things, and learned a great deal. What I wasn't prepared for, was the level of fear that I would feel: Starting Tuesday, and really grappling with it on that day and the next, and then having a pretty high (but managable) level of fear the remainder of my time -- that, I wasn't prepared for. "Even your emotions have an echo, in so much space."
exciting! I'm glad I read Ian Baker's book on Tibetan Yoga or I wouldn't have understood parts of the interview. In the lineage I belong to there is no dark retreat, but even if there was I wouldn't dare do it - a few months ago I quit my job at a veterans club with PTSD after feeling like I was 'infected' with the syndrome. I feel that I need to anchor my spiritual work and ground it and not provoke my current emotional state.
When you fall a sleep your gross mind naturally dissolves in to its nature. If you dont recognize it you fall into unconsciousness. If you do you recognize the clear light mind. Same happens at death
What about them ? They are still bombarded by light and all the light related body chemistry is in place and in tact. They still would need to be put in pitch dark place and probably they would have those experiences
The skin also detects light and humans don't truly "see" with the eyes, actually, we "see" what we perceive to "be" via the brain. Look at the schools that teach how to see without using the eyes and you can comprehend what I am explaining. Also, the documentary "Super Human" goes into the idea of "seeing" in more detail.
@@bvim75dont know. I guess depends on situation. Here someone brings meals but i dont know how many times a day. I know a guy who did like a month of dark retreat eating meat cans🤣
You use your hands to find everything in your space. Funny thing my eco toiled become clogged in the last days of my dark retreat. Truerly a shitty situation. And by the way any kind of lights in the environment would ruin the retreat, you need 100% darkness for it. Rooms are specially designed for them, because you need aeration and no light together. I had 2 wonderful meal brought to me a day in the space betweent two doors closing the house. The only thing giving you any perception of time. Coming out of the retreat was incredible. Never felt more alive. 7 days were enough for me to go deep.
In 1957 an article appeared in Scientific American which documented the experiments conducted at McGill University on sensory deprivation. Breaking down a "dark retreat" it is nothing more than sensory deprivation contextualized in a protective layer of ritual. That ritual is double edged. On the one hand it provides a framework to deal with the hallucinations but on the other it conditions and reinforces the person's existing belief structure.
no, in an authentic dark retreat one already has shamata ie. perfect single-pointed concentration on mental awareness with sensory data unable to impinge or interrupt ones attention. sensory deprivation is meaningless to apply to this context. furthermore concepts, beliefs, biases, thoughts, etcetc, have fully subsided and what arises instead is only close observation of reality. learn real meditation 101 kthx
@@5piles Hi 5piles... There is an internal contradiction in your argument. If a person was perfectly "single-pointed" that would exclude the arising of the various reported visions.
@@marcuszerbini5555 so-called visions are objects of the mental awareness which is perfectly concentrated. for example if you try to use a moving object such as a mantra to gain concentration you cannot because there is movement which destroys stability. this is different than gaining perfect concentration and then placing it on moving objects. in actuality the space of the mind has much much more terrain to cover and explore than the surface of the planet and everything in it.
@@5piles I have to disagree with you in several instances. You correctly point out in your initial comment that a "shamata" practice will suppress intrusive mental activity. However, the dark retreat practice clearly seeks to do exactly the opposite. Eliminating external stimulus means that any visual imagery must be generated by the mind's own activity. This technique is seeking to bring to the conscious awareness that activity of the mind which is subliminal in normal circumstances. It is in expectation that visions and hallucination will result that a preliminary training is deemed necessary. In the interview Justin referenced examples in which people have committed suicide subsequent to attending Vipassana retreats and he recognised a similar potential exists with this technique. Sensory deprivation is well understood to be disorienting and can be disruptive. I acknowledge that the preliminary training (which I describe as a ritual) provides a framework to navigate the hazards but then this introduces the complexity of conditioning the person's mind prior to the event. A dark retreat will produce a set of results but what is important is how those results are comprehended. The preliminary training is a confounding factor which will prejudice not only the interpretation of the experiences but also will influence the nature of the experiences.
Oneness/no self is nirvana. Nothingness is nirvana. Present awareness Is present awareness, amazing but this aliveness can get deeper. Geniuses and talented people have dedicated their live to this adventure. Thinking you already got everything is making a disservice to yourself. No striving is needed , just sit with this present awareness for as long it enrich you, long hours on an intensive retreat or hours regularly in you daily time. Then me if this comment isn't ego.
I could agree. Why exactly? Extreme experience have a way of making clear some aspects of our life. Insights that for some people can make life meaningful and a better adventure. I agree that trying to giving a interpretation to the visions can be a dead end. But this conversation never said that. The point is about becoming familiar with the experience of being human, of having a mind, and accepting that as much as possible without getting brought into his fantasies.
Anatta is the only thing present in dark retreats. You try and then come back with this spiritual ego. You found a drop of water and think you already found complete enlighted. Wells and oceans lies beyond ;)
We experienced a female who worked in an office setting, and while pregnant said, oh yeah, i will give birth on the weekend, and be back at work on Monday! Well...she had her pelvic cracked when giving birth--needless to say she was disconnected from the new birth she incubated and her life tower abruptly crumbled; from what her conscious daily awareness took as her life reality! Mr. Von Bujdoss is diligent to arrive at his Soul signature > nature of being in this incarnation! 🥰🐾🏹🪴🐚🎉🎊❤🍄🌹🪺🌈🔔💝
49 day is crazy! Big respect.
Dark retreats are a completely different beast. I initially approached one thinking it would simply be an enhanced version of a traditional retreat, which I've always loved. However, it turned out to be much more intense, resembling a prolonged psychedelic journey( constant hallucinations). So my regular Samantha practice was inaccessible, but vipassana was the only experience in the foreground. The highs are really high but the low can be incredibly intense. Imagine a visual representation of the dark night of the soul in front of you for days, open eyes or closed eyes. you would need a lot of preparation to make 7 weeks meaningful and not destabilizing. Impermanence is inexorable there, just free falling. if you don't have enough equanimity it will not be a valuable experience.
And also integration is not talk enough in the meditation community, I would love you to interview some Internal Family System therapist, which for me was even more meaningful then meditation practice.
Somehow Justin comes across as one of most the sweetest, compassionate practitioners on this channel. Good luck on your practice.
Nice discussion with Lama Justin on dark retreat. Having done a 17 night dark retreat I appreciated understanding illusory nature. The whole point in this sensory deprivation experience is to totally relax, a radical relaxation of one's body, energy, and mind.
looking forward to dr. Nyida and Justin conversation here on guru viking podcast-great!
Terrific interview. This Lama is an admirable teacher, human being and American New Yorker!
so wonderful thank you so much both of you may you live long in good health and bliss for the benefit of all
Thanks for another great interview Steve!
I'm enjoying this inmensely because i grew up in an environment where i was expressing myself differently from the rest and was thrown from the classroom even from fam expections because of this. And i have been always in search of these type of retreats.
Thank you for daily practice inspiration.
Thank you very much Justin for a wonderfully honest account of your experiences, and may I add, very insightful and inspiring. Best wishes, Andy.
I performed a 7 day, 6 night dark retreat March 9 - March 16, 2024 -- not long ago. I certainly saw a lot of things, and learned a great deal. What I wasn't prepared for, was the level of fear that I would feel: Starting Tuesday, and really grappling with it on that day and the next, and then having a pretty high (but managable) level of fear the remainder of my time -- that, I wasn't prepared for. "Even your emotions have an echo, in so much space."
exciting! I'm glad I read Ian Baker's book on Tibetan Yoga or I wouldn't have understood parts of the interview. In the lineage I belong to there is no dark retreat, but even if there was I wouldn't dare do it - a few months ago I quit my job at a veterans club with PTSD after feeling like I was 'infected' with the syndrome. I feel that I need to anchor my spiritual work and ground it and not provoke my current emotional state.
Wonderful discussion. Would love to see more with Justin.
my favorite interview, also his explanation about dharmapalas and visionary experiences are pretty spot on
I believed and if you really practice, it's come true, Padmasambhāva.
So the fabled Rangjung Dorje Karma Nyingthig exists!!! I have been in search of this for a long time and here he says he will teach it 🙀🤟🙏‼💎🤩
What is the name of the book that Justin spoke about that showed Visions seen during dark retreat?
Nondual sweets! 🍬🍬🍬
Nice interview, but I don’t understand the cover photos.
Photo before and after 49 days in the dark
Isn't a sleeping mind further from an "awakened mind" than an awake mind, much less a stilled & awake mind?
When you fall a sleep your gross mind naturally dissolves in to its nature. If you dont recognize it you fall into unconsciousness. If you do you recognize the clear light mind.
Same happens at death
What about blind people?..
What about them ?
They are still bombarded by light and all the light related body chemistry is in place and in tact.
They still would need to be put in pitch dark place and probably they would have those experiences
Interesting question. Surely your system find an equilibrium. And your eyes still gets some lights as a blind person
Have a convo comparing dark retreat with fire kasina retreat....you know who
Daniel should Try a darkness retreat before. I'm sure he will be surprised
so could a blind person do a dark retreat?
The skin also detects light and humans don't truly "see" with the eyes, actually, we "see" what we perceive to "be" via the brain. Look at the schools that teach how to see without using the eyes and you can comprehend what I am explaining. Also, the documentary "Super Human" goes into the idea of "seeing" in more detail.
@kelloggkirsten you can't see without using eyes,obviously you need eyes to see
@@kingdaleclarkeyou don’t need eyes to see. Study the CIA documents on “remote viewing”
This should be studied to have a comprehensive answer.
how would you find food and the toilet in complete darkness, I don't think it was completely dark.
Its completely dark. You rely on your other senses to find stuff.
Here in the buddhist center where i live we have a cabin
@@DTTaTa Who feeds them? How many meals a day?
@@bvim75dont know. I guess depends on situation. Here someone brings meals but i dont know how many times a day. I know a guy who did like a month of dark retreat eating meat cans🤣
You use your hands to find everything in your space. Funny thing my eco toiled become clogged in the last days of my dark retreat. Truerly a shitty situation.
And by the way any kind of lights in the environment would ruin the retreat, you need 100% darkness for it. Rooms are specially designed for them, because you need aeration and no light together.
I had 2 wonderful meal brought to me a day in the space betweent two doors closing the house. The only thing giving you any perception of time.
Coming out of the retreat was incredible. Never felt more alive. 7 days were enough for me to go deep.
In 1957 an article appeared in Scientific American which documented the experiments conducted at McGill University on sensory deprivation. Breaking down a "dark retreat" it is nothing more than sensory deprivation contextualized in a protective layer of ritual. That ritual is double edged. On the one hand it provides a framework to deal with the hallucinations but on the other it conditions and reinforces the person's existing belief structure.
no, in an authentic dark retreat one already has shamata ie. perfect single-pointed concentration on mental awareness with sensory data unable to impinge or interrupt ones attention. sensory deprivation is meaningless to apply to this context. furthermore concepts, beliefs, biases, thoughts, etcetc, have fully subsided and what arises instead is only close observation of reality. learn real meditation 101 kthx
@@5piles Hi 5piles... There is an internal contradiction in your argument. If a person was perfectly "single-pointed" that would exclude the arising of the various reported visions.
@@marcuszerbini5555 so-called visions are objects of the mental awareness which is perfectly concentrated.
for example if you try to use a moving object such as a mantra to gain concentration you cannot because there is movement which destroys stability. this is different than gaining perfect concentration and then placing it on moving objects. in actuality the space of the mind has much much more terrain to cover and explore than the surface of the planet and everything in it.
@@5piles I have to disagree with you in several instances. You correctly point out in your initial comment that a "shamata" practice will suppress intrusive mental activity. However, the dark retreat practice clearly seeks to do exactly the opposite. Eliminating external stimulus means that any visual imagery must be generated by the mind's own activity. This technique is seeking to bring to the conscious awareness that activity of the mind which is subliminal in normal circumstances.
It is in expectation that visions and hallucination will result that a preliminary training is deemed necessary. In the interview Justin referenced examples in which people have committed suicide subsequent to attending Vipassana retreats and he recognised a similar potential exists with this technique. Sensory deprivation is well understood to be disorienting and can be disruptive.
I acknowledge that the preliminary training (which I describe as a ritual) provides a framework to navigate the hazards but then this introduces the complexity of conditioning the person's mind prior to the event. A dark retreat will produce a set of results but what is important is how those results are comprehended. The preliminary training is a confounding factor which will prejudice not only the interpretation of the experiences but also will influence the nature of the experiences.
@@5piles i don't think the prerequisites need to be that specific.
Some live in the dark all their lives. To bad.
your present awareness is nirvana.
Oneness/no self is nirvana. Nothingness is nirvana. Present awareness Is present awareness, amazing but this aliveness can get deeper. Geniuses and talented people have dedicated their live to this adventure. Thinking you already got everything is making a disservice to yourself. No striving is needed , just sit with this present awareness for as long it enrich you, long hours on an intensive retreat or hours regularly in you daily time. Then me if this comment isn't ego.
Oh heck in the womb we are in a parallel for Dark Retreat
Natural Liberation us Natural Child birth. Without hoping for anything healing happens in the Southern School of Buddhism
Talking about one’s visions after a 49 dark retreat is 🤡 work
I could agree. Why exactly?
Extreme experience have a way of making clear some aspects of our life. Insights that for some people can make life meaningful and a better adventure.
I agree that trying to giving a interpretation to the visions can be a dead end. But this conversation never said that. The point is about becoming familiar with the experience of being human, of having a mind, and accepting that as much as possible without getting brought into his fantasies.
Such a waste of time… Anatta is the only key.. there is no self.. no self to liberate nor any others to liberate! Just egoic mental constructs..
U didn't understand nothing my friend🤣
Anatta is the only thing present in dark retreats. You try and then come back with this spiritual ego. You found a drop of water and think you already found complete enlighted. Wells and oceans lies beyond ;)
One thing’s for sure if you do a 49 day dark retreat- you don’t have a job! 😁
We experienced a female who worked in an office setting, and while pregnant said, oh yeah, i will give birth on the weekend, and be back at work on Monday! Well...she had her pelvic cracked when giving birth--needless to say she was disconnected from the new birth she incubated and her life tower abruptly crumbled; from what her conscious daily awareness took as her life reality! Mr. Von Bujdoss is diligent to arrive at his Soul signature > nature of being in this incarnation! 🥰🐾🏹🪴🐚🎉🎊❤🍄🌹🪺🌈🔔💝