This guy is honestly magic, I was thinking about Crossrail this morning and now there's a video about it. And also guys, It's that time of the week, time to start my weekend by watching the newest Jago Video :D
I believe you can now download software to stop TH-camrs stealing ideas from inside your brain and turning them into videos. Jago's next video will probably be sponsored by the makers of that App.
The Hayes line I swear! First the Metropolitan line, then the Fleet/ Jubilee line, then the City Crossrail, and now both Thameslink 2 and the Bakerloo line are having a shot at it. A video on Thameslink 2 would be much appreciated.
Can I just say that Essex Road is probably haunted - dirty, dimly lit, lack of adverts, empty platforms and you have to go down to go exit. And you have to take the lift to exit!
@eattherich9215 I agree, but Essex Road is the worst as it’s the only line to serve the station. Drayton Park you could make the same argument but at least it’s above ground
You don't have to use the lift. There is a spiral staircase. Look for a narrow gap in the wall by an emergency exit sign. You don't have to wait for an emergency to use it, although it is quite narrow.
@@Roland-pw5xj "There was a dreadful pass, Cirith Thoronath it was named, the Eagles' Cleft, where beneath the shadow of the highest peaks a narrow path wound its way; on the right hand it was walled by a precipice, and on the left a dreadful fall leapt into emptiness."
Looking at London from about 250 miles north it seems amazing how many stations and lines you have down there. The only delight up here was the pacer from Hexham to Whitby, which took longer than the train to London. When you arrived at Whitby there was about 10 minutes to explore, because the same pacer was the last train anywhere. But the pacers have gone and sprinters just don't cut the mustard.
As someone who lives on the Northern City Line south of Finsbury Park, it would be so handy for the people in Islington and Hackney if it was extended. The proposals to connect it up with the Waterloo and City line look grand, shame it didn’t go any further with Bank being such a busy station underground.
Clearing my parents house in Rickmansworth my Dad had kept a brochure for the 1990’s Trains for CrossRail proposal, the Class 341, with a route that would have gone up the Metropolitan line through Rickmansworth and on to Aylesbury. The Watford part mentioned here was another attempt to try and get a train service from the Metropolitan corridor into the centre of Watford, that was resurrected after CrossRail was rejected by Parliament in 1994 as a separate proposal, and dropped again. That proposal to connect at Croxley has been proposed and dropped almost as many times as CrossRail.
I read about some of these in an old printing of 'London's Underground' once. My favourite image was of a stylized Chiltern Turbo with the destination board "Amersham via Forest Gate".
Reading wasn't added to crossrail until very late on. I'm not sure, but tunnel boring may even have already started by then. I think one of the main reasons for extending to reading was that it actually made things simpler, operationally (though I don't recall how) and the additional cost was basically nothing when compared to the project as a whole.
It actually worked out cheaper to extend to Reading than to terminate at Maidenhead. The costs of upgrading Reading Station and electrifying the line between Maidenhead and Reading were paid for out of the Intercity Express budget, and it meant they didn't have to spend so much money at Maidenhead station.
Operationally if Crossrail didn't run to Reading but to Slough or Maidenhead there would still need to be a local service from Reading to the start point. This was envisaged as a half-hourly shuttle.
Extending Northern City line to London Bridge is an obvious idea but today it suits Thameslink better than a “Crossrail”. Could delve deeper after the Old Street (without disturbing a Balrog),with new stations at Moorgate, Bank / Cannon Street and a subterranean London Bridge, surfacing at the great junction and heading for Brighton or other destinations south of London. Another line to use a subterranean London Bridge could have been Reading to Rochester or Gillinghham, diving down past Claphanm Junction and surfacing past London Bridge to continue towards Greenwich. London Overground could have done Waterloo to Dartford via Bexleyheath with a new interchange at Brockley. Finally, Hayes Line could make a great connection to Chiltern line as Crossrail 3. Subterranean Marilebone / Baker Street, Bond Street (interchange with Elizabeth line), Green Park (interchange with Crossrail 2), Embankment /Waterloo, Elephant and Castle (interchange with Thameslink), Camberwell, Queen’s Road Peckham, New Cross Gate / New Cross and Lewisham, surfacing for Ladywell.
You’re not the only one who favours preservation of the Great Northern & City Railway. P.S. Interesting to see the route we have today having been planned back since the 1980s.
The Northern City line was always my favourite, that weird station at Drayton Park, (nice shot at the end of the video) and the endless winding passenger tunnel at Old Street.
If they extend the Northern City Line south to Fenchurch Street, London Bridge and beyond, they should temporarily close the last station and use it to bring in tunnelling equipment and take out soil dug from below the ground. I don't know if the existing two stations would be able to cope with increased passenger flow, but Platform Edge Doors are a good thing and I'd be happy to have either or both of those stations get rebuilt (especially if they are close enough to have an internal link to any station nearby).
Would be interesting to know if the north section of Crossrail 2 now using the Great Eastern route to Cheshunt/Broxbourne instead of the East Midlands route to Luton/Bedford was a result of the Thameslink service being successful and sticking. Or maybe linked more to the prospect of regeneration (*cough*gentrification*cough*) projects in various areas in Hackney, Haringey and Enfield - a lot that have consequently kicked off and are still ongoing today. Honestly, I can't see how Tower Gateway would be missed if it just shut down and a proper link between Fenchurch Street and Tower Hill stations was built instead. The DLR already uses Bank which, again already, has such a link between it and Monument.
A tunnel from Primrose Hill that bypasses Euston makes a lot of sense. One that allows HS2 to continue south even more so. How many people coming into London have Euston as their final destination anyway? As it stands it's a bit of choke point. One can only hope they reconsider this idea before wasting all the money extending HS2 to Euston when it would be far more useful to go underground, possibly to Waterloo where it could rejoin HS1's old route. Add an interchange at Tottenham Court Road which is smack bang in between and leave Euston to the regional services.
I assume what saves the Northern City Line from tampering is the cost and hassle of extending the stations as they are only 6 car. Imagine expanding each station to take 8 or 12 cars. I would guess had the scheme gone ahead it would at best have been 8 cars as any longer than that and you have to extend all the plaforms right out in to Hertfordshire, unless the plan was for selective door opening at Essex Road etc? I would also speculate that south of Essex Road, Old Street and Moorgate would have been abandonned and replaced by new stations at Liverpool St and Fenchurch St Tower Hill.
It's the same fate that befalls all the schemes to extend the Waterloo and City. It seems like the responsible option is to reuse the existing infrastructure, but when you add up the whole scope of works, it's cheaper and easier to just build a whole new line between where you really want to go instead.
Just a very small BUT. If one uses the existing alignment then i understand that no further monies woukd be needed for the landowners above. Hence the express Northern line proposal was to be dug below the existing.
Remembered the Chiltern possibility would have seen Northwood station, my local at the time, expanded and made one of the stops, much to the consternation of the very much richer denizens of Moor Park where Crossrail would have run through. Oh well, it never happened anyway!
If the current plan for CrossRail 2 goes ahead we will see part of both 1978 routes combined, but i think there is also potential for a Crossrail 3 taking over the Abbey Wood branch and the Lioness Line towards Watford and Milton Keynes, it wouldnt cost all that much given much of the infrastructure is already there, it would just need a shirt new tunnel between Paddington and Queens Park.
One of his previous videos mentioned an early proposal for a limited stop District Line service, which I thought could be a good idea for Crossrail 3. Maybe start at Ealing Broadway, then go via Victoria, Charing Cross/Westminster and Blackfriars/Cannon Street (those being double ended stations), before emerging at Fenchurch Street and taking over the line to Southend
It would be great if we had some shovels in the ground from any of these schemes... But it seems writing ideas is way more popular than building anything...
I think your instinct about the Northern-City line is correct: it seems a great shame not to make better use of a full-size tube line - surely it would be vastly cheaper to base a north-south cross-rail on that - to complete it you'd only have to build half a line! In fact, to get it to a bit east of London Bridge, to pick up the ex-LBSCR suburban services, would be just a couple of miles of twin tunnels. Give it Elizabeth line frequencies and you'd have another massive success - interchanging with the Liz line at Moorgate - at a fraction of the cost ...
The platforms are only 6 cars long and the station accesses are mostly poor - it would cost a big pile of money to put that right, it would probably be no more expensive to build new tunnels and stations than updating the existing ones
@@stuartparks8094 That's a good point - still, the demand would be less for trains not going through the west end, so 6-car trains might well be fine - if they increased the frequency. Maybe 7 cars with selective door opening?
Honestly, a SWML Outer Suburban to GEML Outer Suburban "Crossrail" Line makes a lot of sense. Especially when it would provide an actual link between Waterloo and Liverpool Street, which is currently lacking at the moment.
Hey Jago, I love these videos which go into old proposed routes for lines we have today. I came across some old DLR "official handbooks" recently, which showed some of the original proposed routes for the DLR. This might be worth a look for a new video? One of the official handbooks is from 1988, and the other is from 2006. I don't know if there are more than just those two.
Team Northern City here too (OK, it's my route to work, but at the top of London we have highest underground above ground, the furthest underground below ground, national network converted to the tube and the northern city's mainline/underground-ish/tube-ish/back-to-national-rail-wtf-ery
In a commemorative booklet I have for the Aylesbury Metropolitan Line Centenary (30/31 August 1992), Network SouthEast trumpet how CrossRail would reach Chesham and Aylesbury (and Southend, off-peak, as well as Reading-Shenfield). "It is hoped construction can start in 1995 and the entire route will be operational in the year 2000." Who was it said, "It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive"? Not in this case.
"Enfield to Shenfield" seems like such an obvious winner for a route, don't you think? And what a way to give us a ringway for the trains! Abolish the M25 and put tracks along it instead! And you know, a north-south route couldn't hurt. I believe they've started adding tracks to the Lea Valley line (née Weaver), with Tottenham Hale being given space for extra platforms and Ponders End and Brimsdown being next. I sincerely hope they put branches off of Brimsdown and Enfield Lock for the industrial and commercial sectors there. There's already a siding for trains at Cheshunt and freight already runs down there from Harlow Mills. Imagine if, instead of millions of lorries each year coming from Spalding, you could run a few hundred trains and make the deliveries to the warehouses in a much cheaper and more efficient manner. Not to mention greener... But hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves! We haven't even got trams in London any more! Let's fix that first, eh? I can see it now - Central London Interborough Tramway. That'd be something fun to ride!
Wished the Elizabeth Line carried over the East-West Crossrail proposal's route to Marylebone and beyond (likely interchanges with Baker Street). The same goes for the City Crossrail proposal (as together with the stillborn Jubilee stop, it would finally link Fenchurch Street via Tower Hill to the Underground), yet could there have been scope at London Bridge for a southwest route to Clapham Junction onwards (via E&C and Vauxhall)? Envisage the East-South proposal being from London Bridge-Victoria via Waterloo (or E&C) and Millbank / Thames House.
The Brighton to Bedford line is the north to south cross rail that people don't recognise this. You could do one with the confusion of the north London line (now the Mildmay line) and the north London railway before network southeast rebranded it to the Northampton line
The existing deep stations on the Northern City Line have rather short platforms, which would be restrictive if they kept any of them (e.g. Drayton Park). Similarly the platforms on the DC "Lioness" line are also relatively short, so taking over these instead of going up the AC lines would also be restrictive.
Many people who use the Elizabeth Line do prefer calling it Crossrail. I think that Crossrail 2 is likely to happen in the 2030s and to see new trains built for Crossrail 2.
Graffiti artists probably get their dubious fame from the thousands who pass and see their art on the rail network every day. Fatso Jason has good reason to be pleased that his artwork is reaching a wider audience than travellers on (what I assume is) the Northern City Line.
Jago, you should really do a nimby rail save to show your what if London underground with the alternate stations and lines like those crossrails P. S. Jago, when you talking about Overground lines, you can use both the new name and the old one, it would help with making it easier to place where in London, you area talking about
Hayes is an interesting one. When you look at the ridership, there's nothing to suggest it merits a high frequency service beyond Catford. It runs through low-density and mostly wealthy suburbia, and doesn't even provide any connections to regional centres like Bromley so has little value for local traffic, meaning that most of its passengers will be heading into central London, and I suspect most are commuters heading for the City ... so an extension of the Bakerloo or something else that avoids the City and replaces the Cannon Street trains might not be that good for people. Compare it to the Weaver line to Chingford, running a similar distance at a similar frequency, but that sees more than double the ridership of the Hayes line. I suspect the reason transport planners and crayonistas alike are so obsessed with sending a tube line to Hayes is because it is operationally convenient and relatively cheap, compared with trying to do anything involving the tangle of lines out towards Dartford or a route serving Bromley itself.
I lived on a barge at Paddington Basin which was derelict 1989. For a time there was a CrossRail exhibition structure on a pontoon, this had lots of maps etc showing the proposed ideas.
I still think that the Elizabeth Line should take over the London-Aylesbury Line from Wembley Park onwards. After all, not only would that improve services on said line, but also enable a better service on the Watford & Uxbridge Branches of the Metropolitan Line as well.
As Crossrail (now Elizabeth Line) is completed. I would like to see Crossrail 2 getting the go ahead with new stations to be added including at Chelsea and new trains that would operate on Crossrail 2. And maybe rename Crossrail 2 to Charles Line or William Line.
Jago can you do a video on what streets the line from Finsbury Park to Moorgate runs under, as shown where the entrance to each station is in relation to where the line is.
I supported the idea of giving the Overground lines new names, but since the names have nothing to do with what I call these lines, I don't know their names and as someone who doesn't live in the UK I'm not going to memorise them instantly, so every time one gets mentioned here I have to guess from context what were talking about. This means that for me personally, the new names have so far done the opposite of what they're supposed to do.
Thanks Jago. An interesting review, but isn't it about time that Thameslink was recognised as the de facto North-South Crossrail (why not call it the Margaret Line in honour our dear departed Queen's sister) and dreams and schemes that include trying to cram more trains onto the already overcrowded LSWR (or whatever they are called this week) lines is total madness and unaffordable.
Problem with naming it that is that people are more likely to associate it with another, more prominent Margaret, which seems to upset some people. Still a better name than Lioness Line though.
@lordgemini2376 I'm pretty sure the next actually new line in London (not a rebranding or extension of an existing line) will be called the Charles Line.
Fenchurch Street was always one of those curious names (to non-londoners) on Monopoly games. Was it once a thriving london rail terminal, now consigned to the scrapbin of history???
It was one of the four London terminii owned by the London and North Eastern Railway. They had some sort of deal with them for naming rights. I personally would have gone for Kings Cross (LNER), Euston (LMS), Paddington (GWR), and Waterloo (Southern); because then owning all four of the Big Four would give you a monopoly on the railways.
Good morning Mr.Jago Could you possibly do a piece about the part time link from WillyJ through Queens Park to Camden Road, infinity and beyond? Was it ever part of a plan as a regular passenger carrying line? I envisage a parallel service from a suitable starting point north of Wembley. There could be a number of options for the eastern end, my interest is in cutting out the necessity of going into Euston on a journey from north west localities to north east. I believe it would potentially ease passenger loadings on some of the busiest sections of the Overground as well as easing congestion at Euston interchanges. There is also considerable passenger interchange at Willesden which would be relieved by this proposal Additional trains would pose some questions concerning scheduling and intervals. Bakerloo services could be further cut from Queens Park and then possibly run 6 trains an hour on the existing Lioness line; 3 an hour in to Euston and 3 via Camden Road onwards. Thats my pet scheme - I would be equally happy if anyone supports or disproves the suggestion.
The link between South Hampstead and Camden Road via Primrose Hill was the original connection between the West Coast Main line and the Docks, opened in 1851, several years before the route via Hampstead Heath was built (1860), and continued to provide a Broad Street to Watford service (latterly peak hours only) right up until the closure of Broad Street in 1985. It is still used by freight trains.
@@norbitonflyer5625 Thank you. Very interesting. I have seen the freight. In fact the whole North London line network continues to be much used for freight.
@@norbitonflyer5625 Can you envisage a possible re-opening of the link in some form? I realise my suggestion is probably unfeasible, other than the fact that when the situation requires passenger services are indeed diverted. The essence of the resurgent Overground network is lateral transport avoiding the congested central zone.
As a fan of what the Northern City could have been. How many variants are there? I'm sure you've said why the northern city southbound did not get extended but you do like daydreaming. So what would be your proposal to extend N.C.L. south into a rebored to standard guage Waterloo & City and then who knows where. PS Drayton Park was a good place to find RLHs in their day.
Extending the NCL and reboring the Drain - the NCL and Drain are both hemmed in by other lines at tgheir City termini, so you would have to build new tunnels from south of Bank to north of Moorgate, with new stations at both. Waterloo station would also need to be extended to take NCL 6-car trains (it can only take four at present). In fact there would be so little of the existing lines that could be used that you might as well build a whole new line - which is essentially what Crossrail 2 would be - and leave the Drain and NCL doing what they do best.
The original Great Northern Railway only just got into Yorkshire. But tghere are otrher misnomers - you won't see much of the sea from an Avanti West Coast train. Some Trans Pennine services don't cross the Pennines.
Whenever I see the word Hayes I always pronounce it in my head as "Ha, yes!" for some reason. I also really want there to be a direct connection between Hayes in Kent and Hayes & Harlington in west London just for the memes.
Perhaps we should also have a connection between Gillingham, Kent and Gillingham, Dorset. Both were in the empire of the Southern Railway, later the Southern Region. A link from Waterloo East to Waterloo terminus would do the trick.
@@thomasburke2683 Thameslink does run over Luton Arches (Chatham) to Luton. One of the madder bits of Thameslink that slowed down the old SouthEastern semi-fast from London Bridge to Gillingham.
Sees Jago video: CLICK Sees old rail plans: CLICK CLICK SEES CROSSRAIL 3: CLICK CLICK CLICK Click. Click. I keep clicking, but it doesn't spontaneously produce more content. What's wrong? Why is it not so clickable?
Jago, you have great knowledge which could be used for the good of humanity. You should be an advocate for a better rail network. Th ecurrent one is inefficient due to its radial structure and city terminal stations. Grids (like our roads and the underground) is what the rail network needs. Humans are good at shooting ourselves in the foot. Jago, help us to stop doing stupid low value things - use your YT voice to advocate!!!!!! What London needs is the intercity mainlines connected up underground into a grid. It would cut much interchanging in very busy central London. And the current concourse levels could be put to another use. People would go door-to-door with less interchanges and less cost to society.
"Tower Gateway has always been a bit of a compromise"
*Asda's architect looks offended*
Lol
I like Tower Gateway simply because I think the entrance looks cool.
@jonistan9268 I suppose I'm just resentful, because it reminds me of an era when I had enough hair to sustain a mullet 😁
This guy is honestly magic, I was thinking about Crossrail this morning and now there's a video about it.
And also guys, It's that time of the week, time to start my weekend by watching the newest Jago Video :D
I believe you can now download software to stop TH-camrs stealing ideas from inside your brain and turning them into videos. Jago's next video will probably be sponsored by the makers of that App.
You really do have to wonder how many more tunnels can they dig under London before the whole place collapses!
2 more
I like the new ending footage! Feels like a nice summary of the channel in one B-roll shot.
A certain Mr Yerkes would have been in his element with these ‘could have been’ lines.
The Hayes line I swear!
First the Metropolitan line, then the Fleet/ Jubilee line, then the City Crossrail, and now both Thameslink 2 and the Bakerloo line are having a shot at it. A video on Thameslink 2 would be much appreciated.
And I’ve probably left out lots more schemes
Thameslink 2?
@Rohan-iq6zb A proposed line form Stanstead/Chelmsford to Brighton/Lewes via Stratford, Lewisham and west croydon, also known as Crossrail 3.
3:11 wow, that shot really shows the Inordinate scale of thameslink trains. Incredible trains, the 700’s
Very bland livery, though.
Can I just say that Essex Road is probably haunted - dirty, dimly lit, lack of adverts, empty platforms and you have to go down to go exit. And you have to take the lift to exit!
The Northern City Line is just weird.
@eattherich9215 I agree, but Essex Road is the worst as it’s the only line to serve the station. Drayton Park you could make the same argument but at least it’s above ground
You don't have to use the lift. There is a spiral staircase. Look for a narrow gap in the wall by an emergency exit sign. You don't have to wait for an emergency to use it, although it is quite narrow.
@@Roland-pw5xj "There was a dreadful pass, Cirith Thoronath it was named, the Eagles' Cleft, where beneath the shadow of the highest peaks a narrow path wound its way; on the right hand it was walled by a precipice, and on the left a dreadful fall leapt into emptiness."
Lmao yeah that place is cursed
I see Bond Street on the map looks like ‘Bono Street’. Ideal for a second line underground, you could call in ‘U2’.
So the original crossrail Logo was accurate in depicting a X of rails but in the end we got only the Across rail bit. Great video as always🙏
Looking at London from about 250 miles north it seems amazing how many stations and lines you have down there. The only delight up here was the pacer from Hexham to Whitby, which took longer than the train to London. When you arrived at Whitby there was about 10 minutes to explore, because the same pacer was the last train anywhere. But the pacers have gone and sprinters just don't cut the mustard.
They don’t care mate just want more expenditure on London to suck out any marries of life from the rest of the UK
As someone who lives on the Northern City Line south of Finsbury Park, it would be so handy for the people in Islington and Hackney if it was extended. The proposals to connect it up with the Waterloo and City line look grand, shame it didn’t go any further with Bank being such a busy station underground.
Plus the idea of connecting it in the Northern Heights plan, scuppered by post-war cutbacks.
Clearing my parents house in Rickmansworth my Dad had kept a brochure for the 1990’s Trains for CrossRail proposal, the Class 341, with a route that would have gone up the Metropolitan line through Rickmansworth and on to Aylesbury.
The Watford part mentioned here was another attempt to try and get a train service from the Metropolitan corridor into the centre of Watford, that was resurrected after CrossRail was rejected by Parliament in 1994 as a separate proposal, and dropped again. That proposal to connect at Croxley has been proposed and dropped almost as many times as CrossRail.
Great video. Loved your analysis - best to date.
Ooooh more Jago magic to kick back with a nice cuppa and relax with!
It's good to start the year off with Jago's videos.
I read about some of these in an old printing of 'London's Underground' once.
My favourite image was of a stylized Chiltern Turbo with the destination board "Amersham via Forest Gate".
I noticed the new 2025 outdo video is Stratford on the Jubilee line platforms, great location for an outro video in my opinion..
Switching the Northern City Line to Liverpool Street area then London Bridge I think is useful now Crossrail has the connecting passenger tunnels
Moorgate is already in the Liverpool Street area!
@@norbitonflyer5625 as in Liverpool Street then onward (as Bank of England in way of a straight Moorgate - London Bridge extension ?)
Reading wasn't added to crossrail until very late on. I'm not sure, but tunnel boring may even have already started by then. I think one of the main reasons for extending to reading was that it actually made things simpler, operationally (though I don't recall how) and the additional cost was basically nothing when compared to the project as a whole.
Reading has more reversing capacity than any of the intermediate stations and provides connections to long distance mainline services.
It actually worked out cheaper to extend to Reading than to terminate at Maidenhead.
The costs of upgrading Reading Station and electrifying the line between Maidenhead and Reading were paid for out of the Intercity Express budget, and it meant they didn't have to spend so much money at Maidenhead station.
Operationally if Crossrail didn't run to Reading but to Slough or Maidenhead there would still need to be a local service from Reading to the start point. This was envisaged as a half-hourly shuttle.
I like the new end clip.
The ideas were practically booming in 1989 🔥
Extending Northern City line to London Bridge is an obvious idea but today it suits Thameslink better than a “Crossrail”. Could delve deeper after the Old Street (without disturbing a Balrog),with new stations at Moorgate, Bank / Cannon Street and a subterranean London Bridge, surfacing at the great junction and heading for Brighton or other destinations south of London.
Another line to use a subterranean London Bridge could have been Reading to Rochester or Gillinghham, diving down past Claphanm Junction and surfacing past London Bridge to continue towards Greenwich.
London Overground could have done Waterloo to Dartford via Bexleyheath with a new interchange at Brockley.
Finally, Hayes Line could make a great connection to Chiltern line as Crossrail 3. Subterranean Marilebone / Baker Street, Bond Street (interchange with Elizabeth line), Green Park (interchange with Crossrail 2), Embankment /Waterloo, Elephant and Castle (interchange with Thameslink), Camberwell, Queen’s Road Peckham, New Cross Gate / New Cross and Lewisham, surfacing for Ladywell.
The northern city line is a perfect Thameslink 2
You’re not the only one who favours preservation of the Great Northern & City Railway.
P.S. Interesting to see the route we have today having been planned back since the 1980s.
The Northern City line was always my favourite, that weird station at Drayton Park, (nice shot at the end of the video) and the endless winding passenger tunnel at Old Street.
Here's another in Jago's occasional look at what might have been. 😁
Essex Road. Familiar to those who have attended productions at the Rosemary Branch Theatre...
If they extend the Northern City Line south to Fenchurch Street, London Bridge and beyond, they should temporarily close the last station and use it to bring in tunnelling equipment and take out soil dug from below the ground.
I don't know if the existing two stations would be able to cope with increased passenger flow, but Platform Edge Doors are a good thing and I'd be happy to have either or both of those stations get rebuilt (especially if they are close enough to have an internal link to any station nearby).
Oh new outro!
Would be interesting to know if the north section of Crossrail 2 now using the Great Eastern route to Cheshunt/Broxbourne instead of the East Midlands route to Luton/Bedford was a result of the Thameslink service being successful and sticking. Or maybe linked more to the prospect of regeneration (*cough*gentrification*cough*) projects in various areas in Hackney, Haringey and Enfield - a lot that have consequently kicked off and are still ongoing today.
Honestly, I can't see how Tower Gateway would be missed if it just shut down and a proper link between Fenchurch Street and Tower Hill stations was built instead. The DLR already uses Bank which, again already, has such a link between it and Monument.
A tunnel from Primrose Hill that bypasses Euston makes a lot of sense. One that allows HS2 to continue south even more so. How many people coming into London have Euston as their final destination anyway? As it stands it's a bit of choke point. One can only hope they reconsider this idea before wasting all the money extending HS2 to Euston when it would be far more useful to go underground, possibly to Waterloo where it could rejoin HS1's old route. Add an interchange at Tottenham Court Road which is smack bang in between and leave Euston to the regional services.
Happy New Year 🎉🎉🎉
I assume what saves the Northern City Line from tampering is the cost and hassle of extending the stations as they are only 6 car. Imagine expanding each station to take 8 or 12 cars. I would guess had the scheme gone ahead it would at best have been 8 cars as any longer than that and you have to extend all the plaforms right out in to Hertfordshire, unless the plan was for selective door opening at Essex Road etc? I would also speculate that south of Essex Road, Old Street and Moorgate would have been abandonned and replaced by new stations at Liverpool St and Fenchurch St Tower Hill.
It's the same fate that befalls all the schemes to extend the Waterloo and City. It seems like the responsible option is to reuse the existing infrastructure, but when you add up the whole scope of works, it's cheaper and easier to just build a whole new line between where you really want to go instead.
Just a very small BUT. If one uses the existing alignment then i understand that no further monies woukd be needed for the landowners above. Hence the express Northern line proposal was to be dug below the existing.
Remembered the Chiltern possibility would have seen Northwood station, my local at the time, expanded and made one of the stops, much to the consternation of the very much richer denizens of Moor Park where Crossrail would have run through. Oh well, it never happened anyway!
If the current plan for CrossRail 2 goes ahead we will see part of both 1978 routes combined, but i think there is also potential for a Crossrail 3 taking over the Abbey Wood branch and the Lioness Line towards Watford and Milton Keynes, it wouldnt cost all that much given much of the infrastructure is already there, it would just need a shirt new tunnel between Paddington and Queens Park.
One of his previous videos mentioned an early proposal for a limited stop District Line service, which I thought could be a good idea for Crossrail 3. Maybe start at Ealing Broadway, then go via Victoria, Charing Cross/Westminster and Blackfriars/Cannon Street (those being double ended stations), before emerging at Fenchurch Street and taking over the line to Southend
What you suggest has already been proposed as an additional branch of the Elizabeth Line
I own Fenchurch Street - Only b/c I have bought a few times when playing Monopoly!!! 😄😉🚂🚂🚂
It would be great if we had some shovels in the ground from any of these schemes...
But it seems writing ideas is way more popular than building anything...
The obvious problem is cost. None of these ideas will even see a feasibility study for 15 years.
I think your instinct about the Northern-City line is correct: it seems a great shame not to make better use of a full-size tube line - surely it would be vastly cheaper to base a north-south cross-rail on that - to complete it you'd only have to build half a line! In fact, to get it to a bit east of London Bridge, to pick up the ex-LBSCR suburban services, would be just a couple of miles of twin tunnels. Give it Elizabeth line frequencies and you'd have another massive success - interchanging with the Liz line at Moorgate - at a fraction of the cost ...
The platforms are only 6 cars long and the station accesses are mostly poor - it would cost a big pile of money to put that right, it would probably be no more expensive to build new tunnels and stations than updating the existing ones
@@stuartparks8094 That's a good point - still, the demand would be less for trains not going through the west end, so 6-car trains might well be fine - if they increased the frequency. Maybe 7 cars with selective door opening?
Woo Hoo! New Outro!
I'm surprised there hasn't been more drive to connect Clapham Junction with the city. I think a Thameslink service would be popular.
Honestly, a SWML Outer Suburban to GEML Outer Suburban "Crossrail" Line makes a lot of sense. Especially when it would provide an actual link between Waterloo and Liverpool Street, which is currently lacking at the moment.
Hey Jago, I love these videos which go into old proposed routes for lines we have today. I came across some old DLR "official handbooks" recently, which showed some of the original proposed routes for the DLR. This might be worth a look for a new video?
One of the official handbooks is from 1988, and the other is from 2006. I don't know if there are more than just those two.
Team Northern City here too (OK, it's my route to work, but at the top of London we have highest underground above ground, the furthest underground below ground, national network converted to the tube and the northern city's mainline/underground-ish/tube-ish/back-to-national-rail-wtf-ery
In a commemorative booklet I have for the Aylesbury Metropolitan Line Centenary (30/31 August 1992), Network SouthEast trumpet how CrossRail would reach Chesham and Aylesbury (and Southend, off-peak, as well as Reading-Shenfield). "It is hoped construction can start in 1995 and the entire route will be operational in the year 2000." Who was it said, "It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive"? Not in this case.
Perhaps now for northern city line the london northern heights project could be reconsidered
"Enfield to Shenfield" seems like such an obvious winner for a route, don't you think? And what a way to give us a ringway for the trains! Abolish the M25 and put tracks along it instead!
And you know, a north-south route couldn't hurt. I believe they've started adding tracks to the Lea Valley line (née Weaver), with Tottenham Hale being given space for extra platforms and Ponders End and Brimsdown being next. I sincerely hope they put branches off of Brimsdown and Enfield Lock for the industrial and commercial sectors there. There's already a siding for trains at Cheshunt and freight already runs down there from Harlow Mills. Imagine if, instead of millions of lorries each year coming from Spalding, you could run a few hundred trains and make the deliveries to the warehouses in a much cheaper and more efficient manner. Not to mention greener...
But hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves! We haven't even got trams in London any more! Let's fix that first, eh? I can see it now - Central London Interborough Tramway. That'd be something fun to ride!
I think you mean 'Weaver Line (née Lea Valley)'
3:07 Yay, Hitchin 😄🎉💪🏿
Happy new year jago. caroline.
Since the stock upgrade the northern city line is absolutely fantastic. When they have enough drivers.
Hayes - which Hayes.
For me the real Hayes is the home of EMI.....
Ah, the sleepy little village of Hayes in the London Borough of Bromley. I only know of it because I went to Hayes Secondary School. 😊
Good morning jago
Bravo sir.
Wished the Elizabeth Line carried over the East-West Crossrail proposal's route to Marylebone and beyond (likely interchanges with Baker Street).
The same goes for the City Crossrail proposal (as together with the stillborn Jubilee stop, it would finally link Fenchurch Street via Tower Hill to the Underground), yet could there have been scope at London Bridge for a southwest route to Clapham Junction onwards (via E&C and Vauxhall)? Envisage the East-South proposal being from London Bridge-Victoria via Waterloo (or E&C) and Millbank / Thames House.
The Brighton to Bedford line is the north to south cross rail that people don't recognise this. You could do one with the confusion of the north London line (now the Mildmay line) and the north London railway before network southeast rebranded it to the Northampton line
Oh what we may have had
I can only Dream of a speedy service from Aylesbury to London every 10 or 15 minutes!! (deep sigh)
The existing deep stations on the Northern City Line have rather short platforms, which would be restrictive if they kept any of them (e.g. Drayton Park). Similarly the platforms on the DC "Lioness" line are also relatively short, so taking over these instead of going up the AC lines would also be restrictive.
Just imagine if the north-south route had been done?
We would have had much more suburban capacity.
Hope they do eventually build it
Many people who use the Elizabeth Line do prefer calling it Crossrail. I think that Crossrail 2 is likely to happen in the 2030s and to see new trains built for Crossrail 2.
Graffiti artists probably get their dubious fame from the thousands who pass and see their art on the rail network every day.
Fatso Jason has good reason to be pleased that his artwork is reaching a wider audience than travellers on (what I assume is) the Northern City Line.
New year. New ending.
Isn't it time Fenchurch Street got its own tube station, even if it is close to Tower Hill?
Jago, you should really do a nimby rail save to show your what if London underground with the alternate stations and lines like those crossrails
P. S. Jago, when you talking about Overground lines, you can use both the new name and the old one, it would help with making it easier to place where in London, you area talking about
Hayes is an interesting one.
When you look at the ridership, there's nothing to suggest it merits a high frequency service beyond Catford. It runs through low-density and mostly wealthy suburbia, and doesn't even provide any connections to regional centres like Bromley so has little value for local traffic, meaning that most of its passengers will be heading into central London, and I suspect most are commuters heading for the City ... so an extension of the Bakerloo or something else that avoids the City and replaces the Cannon Street trains might not be that good for people. Compare it to the Weaver line to Chingford, running a similar distance at a similar frequency, but that sees more than double the ridership of the Hayes line.
I suspect the reason transport planners and crayonistas alike are so obsessed with sending a tube line to Hayes is because it is operationally convenient and relatively cheap, compared with trying to do anything involving the tangle of lines out towards Dartford or a route serving Bromley itself.
I lived on a barge at Paddington Basin which was derelict 1989. For a time there was a CrossRail exhibition structure on a pontoon, this had lots of maps etc showing the proposed ideas.
I still think that the Elizabeth Line should take over the London-Aylesbury Line from Wembley Park onwards.
After all, not only would that improve services on said line, but also enable a better service on the Watford & Uxbridge Branches of the Metropolitan Line as well.
As Crossrail (now Elizabeth Line) is completed. I would like to see Crossrail 2 getting the go ahead with new stations to be added including at Chelsea and new trains that would operate on Crossrail 2. And maybe rename Crossrail 2 to Charles Line or William Line.
something should relly be don with the northern city line.
Will you be covering the early 1990s crossrail plan that included going up to Amersham by any chance?
Jago can you do a video on what streets the line from Finsbury Park to Moorgate runs under, as shown where the entrance to each station is in relation to where the line is.
1:23 Abbey wood(would), but I won't! LOL😄
I supported the idea of giving the Overground lines new names, but since the names have nothing to do with what I call these lines, I don't know their names and as someone who doesn't live in the UK I'm not going to memorise them instantly, so every time one gets mentioned here I have to guess from context what were talking about. This means that for me personally, the new names have so far done the opposite of what they're supposed to do.
Would love a direct connection between London Bridge and Liverpool Street (Moorgate is annoyingly far despite being the same liz line station)
Thanks Jago. An interesting review, but isn't it about time that Thameslink was recognised as the de facto North-South Crossrail (why not call it the Margaret Line in honour our dear departed Queen's sister) and dreams and schemes that include trying to cram more trains onto the already overcrowded LSWR (or whatever they are called this week) lines is total madness and unaffordable.
Problem with naming it that is that people are more likely to associate it with another, more prominent Margaret, which seems to upset some people.
Still a better name than Lioness Line though.
No more naming lines after the royals
@lordgemini2376 I'm pretty sure the next actually new line in London (not a rebranding or extension of an existing line) will be called the Charles Line.
Things and places were named after Victoria due to her long reign, and the same with Elizabeth. 😊
I've occasionally heard Thameslink described as Crossrail 0
They need to hurry up with Crossrail 2
Fenchurch Street was always one of those curious names (to non-londoners) on Monopoly games.
Was it once a thriving london rail terminal, now consigned to the scrapbin of history???
It's still quite busy, bearing in mind it only has four platforms, doing what it has always done and serving the Essex bank of the Thames estuary
It was one of the four London terminii owned by the London and North Eastern Railway. They had some sort of deal with them for naming rights.
I personally would have gone for Kings Cross (LNER), Euston (LMS), Paddington (GWR), and Waterloo (Southern); because then owning all four of the Big Four would give you a monopoly on the railways.
Still hoping for Crossrail2 before cars with Pretty Inventive Guidance Systems (PIGS) fly... 🤔
Good morning Mr.Jago
Could you possibly do a piece about the part time link from WillyJ through Queens Park to Camden Road, infinity and beyond? Was it ever part of a plan as a regular passenger carrying line?
I envisage a parallel service from a suitable starting point north of Wembley. There could be a number of options for the eastern end, my interest is in cutting out the necessity of going into Euston on a journey from north west localities to north east. I believe it would potentially ease passenger loadings on some of the busiest sections of the Overground as well as easing congestion at Euston interchanges.
There is also considerable passenger interchange at Willesden which would be relieved by this proposal
Additional trains would pose some questions concerning scheduling and intervals. Bakerloo services could be further cut from Queens Park and then possibly run 6 trains an hour on the existing Lioness line; 3 an hour in to Euston and 3 via Camden Road onwards.
Thats my pet scheme - I would be equally happy if anyone supports or disproves the suggestion.
The link between South Hampstead and Camden Road via Primrose Hill was the original connection between the West Coast Main line and the Docks, opened in 1851, several years before the route via Hampstead Heath was built (1860), and continued to provide a Broad Street to Watford service (latterly peak hours only) right up until the closure of Broad Street in 1985. It is still used by freight trains.
@@norbitonflyer5625 Thank you. Very interesting. I have seen the freight. In fact the whole North London line network continues to be much used for freight.
@@norbitonflyer5625 Can you envisage a possible re-opening of the link in some form?
I realise my suggestion is probably unfeasible, other than the fact that when the situation requires passenger services are indeed diverted. The essence of the resurgent Overground network is lateral transport avoiding the congested central zone.
@@norbitonflyer5625 May I also ask, what was the route from Camden Road to Broad Street?
Twinny Crossrail🤗
Do you think there was a misprint? Shenfield missing Sh leaving it saying Enfield?
Bono Street 🎵🎶🎼
Ah, not just me who saw that then! Maybe a proposed link to the DART? 😆 Sorry
Bono must be so upset that his greatness never had that street name come to fruition. 😂😂😂
As a fan of what the Northern City could have been. How many variants are there? I'm sure you've said why the northern city southbound did not get extended but you do like daydreaming. So what would be your proposal to extend N.C.L. south into a rebored to standard guage Waterloo & City and then who knows where.
PS Drayton Park was a good place to find RLHs in their day.
Extending the NCL and reboring the Drain - the NCL and Drain are both hemmed in by other lines at tgheir City termini, so you would have to build new tunnels from south of Bank to north of Moorgate, with new stations at both. Waterloo station would also need to be extended to take NCL 6-car trains (it can only take four at present). In fact there would be so little of the existing lines that could be used that you might as well build a whole new line - which is essentially what Crossrail 2 would be - and leave the Drain and NCL doing what they do best.
How can they call themselves Great Northern Rail when they don't go north of Kings Lynn? I think Yorkshire should sue!
The original Great Northern Railway only just got into Yorkshire. But tghere are otrher misnomers - you won't see much of the sea from an Avanti West Coast train. Some Trans Pennine services don't cross the Pennines.
Anything north of the river is the north for a southerner like me 🤣
1989 (Crossrail's Version)
Shake it off
Whenever I see the word Hayes I always pronounce it in my head as "Ha, yes!" for some reason. I also really want there to be a direct connection between Hayes in Kent and Hayes & Harlington in west London just for the memes.
Perhaps we should also have a connection between Gillingham, Kent and Gillingham, Dorset.
Both were in the empire of the Southern Railway, later the Southern Region. A link from Waterloo East to Waterloo terminus would do the trick.
This is my organic granola autism I search for in the comments
@@thomasburke2683 Thameslink does run over Luton Arches (Chatham) to Luton. One of the madder bits of Thameslink that slowed down the old SouthEastern semi-fast from London Bridge to Gillingham.
@@thomasburke2683 It could also be used to link the two Ashfords
👍🏻🇬🇧👀...
Sees Jago video: CLICK
Sees old rail plans: CLICK CLICK
SEES CROSSRAIL 3: CLICK CLICK CLICK
Click. Click.
I keep clicking, but it doesn't spontaneously produce more content. What's wrong? Why is it not so clickable?
Fenchurch Street definitely needs something doing to it! Awful station, by far the worst London terminal!
Jago, you have great knowledge which could be used for the good of humanity. You should be an advocate for a better rail network. Th ecurrent one is inefficient due to its radial structure and city terminal stations. Grids (like our roads and the underground) is what the rail network needs. Humans are good at shooting ourselves in the foot. Jago, help us to stop doing stupid low value things - use your YT voice to advocate!!!!!! What London needs is the intercity mainlines connected up underground into a grid. It would cut much interchanging in very busy central London. And the current concourse levels could be put to another use. People would go door-to-door with less interchanges and less cost to society.