Allicent is the real victim in this episode she got character assassinated real bad. And even worse what the show runners did made fans blame Allicent who was supposed to be the VICTIM of the situation for her grandson's death when it was a planned revenge plot from the Blacks in the books.
What they're doing with her character and Ser Criston's is just... I don't even know what to say about it. In the book, they are the master conspirators who put Aegon on the throne, two of the top schemers in the kingdoms. On the show, they're fuckbuddies who are in denial about the war - Alicent is at least. 🤦🏾♂
@@thecriticalmaester9702It's completely plausible that this Criston and F&B Criston could be the same. F&B is outside perspectives years later based on second hand accounts. Tyrion in the books was seen as an evil mastermind leading poor Joffrey down the wrong path. That said, I do agree with the criticism.
B&C just felt so lazy and rushed. We got to see Aegon with his son for how long? Like a minute? And we get nothing with Helaena and her son nor any scenes at all with him and Alicent. All of the connections that made his death hit hard was not there. Yet, with Rhaenyra and Luke we got plenty of entire episodes of them together
Maelor wasn’t even in season 1, like at all. So I have no idea why everyone is so up in arms acting like b and c is some major turning point in the story when it isn’t. You’re just coping because this isn’t what you wanted.
@@mattcollins3591 Because it is a major turning point and it’s crucial to portray the grey morality in both sides. Yeah, it’s not what I want because it chose not to follow the source material.
@@josephbulkin9222True. But I’m talking about the shock of seeing a child being murdered in such a gruesome way. Maybe another example would be that I didn’t feel the same way I did when Shireen was sacrificed.
I'm not a book reader, but I've seen the description of this event & I 100% agree with you. The entire scene plays out in an implausible way. First off, they're just wandering through the castle without anyone pay them any mind. This makes no sense. They should've strictly been moving through secret hidden passages, unseen by anyone. Second, why is the queen unguarded. Shouldn't be being shadowed by a Kings guard with her as she walks through the castle. At least their should be guards throughout that area.
YESSS THERE SHOULD’VE BEEN MORE SUSPENSE AS B&C MOVED AROUND THE CASTLE, DODGING THE GUARDS ETC. THE KIDS SHOULD’VE ALSO BEEN AWAKE SO THE “YOUR MOTHER CHOSE YOU TO DIE” LINE COULD WORK
("...Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and _“make them their own.”_ It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or… well, anyone. No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and _“improve”_ on it. _“The book is the book, the film is the film,”_ they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. *_They never make it better, though_* Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse...") - George RR Martin
He warned us and we didn’t listen. My theory is that he saw the better cut before the reshoots, which was why he said it was great on his blog. It’s telling that he wasn’t at any of the premieres, isn’t it?
Yeah most authors HATE their own movies because of the changes. I mean Stephen King and Veronica Roth notably hate their own films. I mean even the Bridgerton show on Netflix is under fire for a lot of book changes they are doing for the next season. Henry Cavill quit the Witcher because they were going off book I mean these people even don’t even seem to like the original books for what they were and make changes that will make sense and pay homage to the books. The writers for the Lord of the Rings films made some changes like with Arwen’s character but these changes made sense and didn’t take away from the original story
Cristin Cole’s whole character has been assassinated at this point. The reason he hates Rhaenyra is because she made him forsake his vows! Why would he know suddenly be willing to forsake his vows by bedding Alice!
YESSS! S1 Criston’s devotion to Alison Cole felt genuine because it felt like he knew this is the woman who’s also virtuous and would never take advantage of his vows!
@@aeri_taylors-version what? His vow is of chastity. He made a big stink that Rhaenyra wouldn't marry him to make up for it. He's morally grey because he's a hypocrite.
@@JobberV I just wish they could have kept him like his in the book. He is a noble knight who doesn’t forsake his vow yet convinces Aegon to become king which start a war. Sounds a like a lot cooler character than just being a hypocrite.
They really dropped the ball on Blood and cheese. The point was to show that this is war there are no true “good or bad guys” Martin expertly creates characters that inspire both sympathy and hatred. When he wrote the dance of dragons he wrote it in a way that both sides had virtues and flaws, both sides committed atrocities and victories. Blood and cheese was horrific and Daemon and too a degree Rhaenyra was all for it. They forced Helaena to choose either her younger son Maelor or older son Jaehaerys to die (hate they cut out Maelor) and if she refused they threatened to rape Jaehaera. She chose Maelor and they killed Jaehaerys. This is when Aegon really took responsibility and stepped up since his son was murdered and Helaena never recovered. She went MAD with grief and could barely hold her younger son. They didn’t show her watching with horror as her son was killed. They didn’t show Alicent being gagged and forced to watch her grandson murdered. They didn’t show the killers waiting for her, not stumbling on accident. They even took Jaehaery’s severed head with them to give to Daemon and Rhaenyra. While I agree that if the blacks really wanted justice Aemond would be killed and show says that but… the point of blood and cheese being so horrific and brutal was to show that the Blacks aren’t innocent victims in all of this. Here they made blood and cheese a mistake. They didn’t show the pure evil and brutality of Rhaenyra and Daemon condoning such an act. This act that would push the commoners against them. And they needed the two sons to make Helaena choose because that mad “son for a son” so powerful. Ultimately the small folk LOVED Helaena and I hated how they cut out how much the commoners loved Helaena and her children as an exemplary consort versus Daemon. And her suicide and the murder of her sons really drove the commoners to hate on Rhaenyra. This just shows their bias towards the blacks by not portraying blood and cheese the way it is: a brutal and horrific murder of an innocent child. Yes the Greens are not innocent they have committed atrocities like the murder of Luke but to not show the atrocities of the blacks just shows the bias. And to have her walk in Alicent and Criston afterwards!!! Whoever wrote that should be FIRED!!! I never took those two to have a physical affair. They obviously are trauma bonded together after their bad experiences with sex but due to Alicent’s trauma and religious beliefs and Criston wanting to cling to his vows it seems out of character for them to have a physical affair rather than emotional. They are trying to make the Greens as unsympathetic and unlivable as possible, essentially forcing audiences to side with the Blacks which is not the original story that didn’t encourage a side. The original story showed sources bias towards Rhaenyra and towards Aegon. Equal virtues and flaws for both. I’m absolutely disappointed especially since this will feed into the Black Stans who think Daemon and Rhaenyra are the good guys and just simply “make mistakes” when they are blood thirsty and cruel. Why else do they call Rhaenyra Maegor with teats.
@@aeri_taylors-version it’s cause they didn’t show Maelor which also didn’t make the scene as impactful. It was son for a son. Helaena was made to chose between her two boys.
@@via-anghelmagahum2586 They want to turn the Blacks into the Starks so bad even though Daemon’s moral compass was much closer to those of Ramsay Bolton than to Jon Snow. He was called “The Rogue Prince” for a reason.
@@nont18411 Even so, the Starks don’t always have the moral high ground. Even though the Starks are very honorable and amazing people in general, they were also flawed human beings and were presented as such and viewed as such. Catelyn was a wonderful leader and mother to her kids but treated Jon Snow like the pebble in her shoe. Eddard Stark lied to his wife for decades about Jon. Arya is great but she’s also impulsive, blood thirsty, etc. Sansa has a spine of steel but she also has made some bad choices in who to trust. Rob is a great commander but made stupid choices and ruled with his heart (marrying Talisa) but failed to rule with his head. The Lannisters are definitely more evil but they have their moments. Tyrion strives to make Sansa more comfortable and didn’t pressure her and respected her boundaries, standing up for her during their wedding. Cersei is disgusting but she has one redeeming quality, she loves her children. She loved her children fiercely although she wasn’t mother of the year by all means, but she loved her babies more than life itself. Jaime is flawed and many ways but slowly works his way towards redemption. That’s the thing, the original Game of Thrones stories had these characters who were not traditional in the good versus evil and good guy and bad guy sense like with LOTD, but ASOIAF characters inspire both sympathy and hatred. They are flawed and that’s what made them so interesting and compelling. Here, the writers have done some good changes for both greens and blacks. They make Aemond out to be a bullied kid, Alicent a groomed teenager, etc. but their obvious favoritism of Rhaenyra comes off almost as if they want her to be the “good guy” while the greens are the “bad guy”. The writers and black stans appear to want it to be black and white. Rhaenyra is the good guy to them. They view her as some radical feminist who can do no wrong who is morally superior when it is far more complicated than that.
It could’ve been episode 2-3. At this point in books Daemon has taken Harrenhall. Jace spent 2 minutes in north where he spent several weeks traveling tryna to raise support. We don’t see him go to the Vale & meeting Lady Jeyne Arryn who is Rhaenyra cousin & one of her most fervent supporters. We don’t get the green discussions of alliances & how they need a new masters of ships. It was a throwaway sentence. Blood & Cheese if they really wanted could’ve been episode 2 or you could’ve started Episode 3 with it.,
Ok but one episode can be like 10 years time so… Ik that ep wasn’t but still. Also it was rushed just like everything at the end of got. They need to get some different writers (some who read the books) to write.
Yes I’m very very disappointed in that scene. They made so many changes to these two characters that they are now so so unlikable. Yes they aged down Alicent and made her more a victim but now they’re taking away so much of her agency by making her this bystander and bad mother. Criston is made out to be this misogynistic jealous ex of Rhaenyra instead of the skilled politician schemer and brutal warrior that even Jaime Lannister admires from history. The man who bested Daemon twice and Harwin Strong. This scene was used to make the Greens look bad as now the Black Stans who think this is a Rhaenyra is the protagonist show when it was never like that (there were no good guys or bad guys, just complicated characters who think they’re in the right who commit atrocities and victories who are flawed and virtuous) can just look and blame Criston and Alicent for what happened like “why wasn’t Criston at his post” I do think in the show Alicent and Criston have deep feelings for each other. He’s the only man whose never taken advantage of Alicent in some way or used her. They both trauma bonded regarding their experiences of being sexually exploited by Targaryens, but because of Alicent’s religion and no doubt her traumas regarding sex and Criston’s determination to uphold his vows this seems SO out of character and almost as if the writers are going out of their way to make them so hypocritical and nasty. Alicent as dowager Queen has significant power over Criston just as Rhaenyra had over him. After knowing what he went through she’d never take advantage of him like this regardless of how much he may want it And the sex distracts and takes away from the shear brutality and horror of Blood and Cheese
how come? They have literally shown from the first episode that she was interested in Cole and hinted heavily that she was jealous of Rhaenyra's affair with him. Both of them were shown to be hypocrites in some things, I have not read the book when I saw season 1 and it was quite clear to me that an affair was brewing back then and was a matter of time.
it was done to tarnish Alicent even more, showing how she's basically a hypocrite for criticizing Rhaenyra for her extramarital affairs, except that technically she did nothing wrong here - her husband was already dead, so they went with the "careless mother" instead
@@ingetamm7951 Exactly. The two are hardly comparable. Rhaenyra had bastard kids despite being in the line of succession. Alicent is a widowed grandmother whose true born son is already on the throne. If she wants to have a discreet side piece, she's paid her dues.
@@soleil.8044 maaann! wtf are they doing with show? "All must choose" my ass! How r people suppose to choose when it leans heavily towards the Blacks?. And what's worst for me is they'd likely cut out Daeron n Tessarion frm the show. It's season 2 already and still no mention of them.
It's perfect for the biased writers because now they can turn the finger and blame the Greens for the event, instead of Daemon and Rhaenyra. Now people can say, "Why wasn't Criston Cole at his post?" or "Why were Alicent and Cole having sex instead of protecting Helaena and her children?" What they're doing to Ser Criston's character is more villainous than Blood and Cheese in the book. It's hard to believe that this is the man that Jaime thinks about so much and amaybe even admires in the books. 🤦🏾♂😭
For those who don't understand why book fans are upset by the changes made think of why fans of the original ATLA show are so disappointed by the Netflix adaptation. The story and the characters were reduced and butchered which is a justifiable thing to complain about. These 'book purist' as you call them aren't just bitching/moaning/ being nitpicky they're giving a good critique and commentary of the show and they bring to light how biased the show runners are being and how this bias reduces the story and it's message. If you don't understand this where this channel and book fans are coming from despite watching the video then maybe rewatch the video and other videos regarding the topic so you could understand more. Or just not and do other things in your life then antagonizing people who want to see a story at it's full glory and potential. No one is forcing you to change your mind about the show people here are just expressing their thoughts and feelings which are valid. Learn to understand where others are coming from instead of being quick to call people names and accusing them of being bitchy and nitpicky.
They're only saying that because they like the changes because they're team black. They're just using this to dismiss all criticism of the show. That's why they keep saying "The book isn't true. Just like history, it is biased". They're basically claiming the show is the real cannon or at the very least the books are biased so they can be disregarded. Which is funny because the book makes both sides look bad
@@rexblade504 When you think about it even if the books might be biased and innacuratte to what actually happened the message that the story tells us is what truly matters. The books show a story of both sides becoming the worse they are all for power while people around them suffer for it. What made GRRM's work special was how it shows that war is always no good and that any side of war has nuance and complexity. But the show is just a basic good vs bad storyline that goes against what it's supposed to be making it a bad adaptation. You have the choice to make changes and not adapt things but adapting the core and message of the story is something you should always prioritize.
At least D&D have an excuse that they lacked source material. That’s why they botched the ending. HOTD has all the source material in the world and they chose not to follow it.
@@rexblade504 they would have done more to develop a relationship between aegon, halaena and their kids along with alicent just like they did in got with Robb, catelyn and talisa
Didn’t they have stannis’ death off screen? Wasn’t shireens offscreen as well? If D n D were back, you’d all complain about other things as well. It’s par for the course at this point.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 At least with DnD, we can still give them an excuse that they botched the ending because they didn’t have the source material. We cannot say the same thing for HOTD.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 I know but from the actor getting more screen time to the showrunners saying they’ll portray a more gray story for both sides I just thought they would finally take criticism but the worst part is that this is how season five of GOT started with people telling book purest to quit whining a couple years later season 8 came I think the cycle is repeating itself
@@AegonTargaryenthesecond3096 They took the blame out of Daemon’s hands, even though everything in Blood and Cheese should have been intentional in his (and Rhaenyra’s) part. Daemon should have been a likable Ramsay Bolton who can ride a dragon, not this half-cooked antihero.
I really have no confidence in the writers now. They didn't really give us Blood & Cheese, so now I doubt they will give us ****book spoilers**** Aegon III seeing his mother die. The death of Princess Jaehaera (which was always suss), Joffery's fall or the bit on the bridge? The whole point of the Dance of the Dragons is that it almost wipes out the entire family tree on both sides. Their children end up paying the price. The innocents suffer the most. What's the point if they don't show it?
You’re only one episode in. Stop being so dramatic you big baby. Blood and cheese is a catalyst. It did what it needed to do to progress the plot, it didn’t need to be gore or torture corn
A King's word is LAW. Viserys declared Rhaenyra Targaryen his heir and the Realm bent the knee and declared their allegiance. All who denied the true Queen the of Seven Kingdoms are traitors.
@@Jester2415 “Rhaenyra Targaryen was daughter to a king, sister to a king, and mother to two more… but she died a traitors death trying to usurp her brothers throne.” -Stannis Baratheon rightful king of Westeros.
@@Jester2415 The histories of Westeros never recognize Rhaenyra as queen. Even Rhaenyras own children recognized Aegon as the rightful king. Using your logic Viserys could have made a dog the heir and everyone would have had to bow to it?
Oh, it was underwhelming even if you DID NOT read the book! So hastily done, so clumsily done, so boring even! And I understand that Helaena had already seen this happen, hence why she was so strangely calm, having come to terms with it long before, but still she was way too emotionless and that helped make all this quite STALE! I think this scene should not have happened right on the first episode but clearly the showrunners are willing to hasten the narrative for either budget or, worse, HBO's directive! I think this show will not have many seasons, probably just three, and that IF they do not continue to expedite things like in this episode!
They making the books seem ALOT more interesting …I was mad about the part wen they killed the baby tho then the Queen just causally walked out the room I don’t think real assassins would have just let her go
As if GoT wasn't warning enough. When they keep to the book, it's great. The showrunners get high on themselves and change more things. Because they do not understand what they're doing, it becomes shit.
Something tells me that the greens ain’t going get no justice and daeron ain’t going be a big figure in the show because the producers of the show want to play favorites with the blacks I’ll wait to see what happens next hopefully I’m wrong
I couldn't agree with you more. I was a bit disappointed. I felt the scene with Blood and Cheese, was so dim. I expected a bit more emotions from the Queen. Especially seeing her child being murdered. I didn't have to see the child being murdered, but I wanted to see more emotions.
We don't see Ned Stark die either. We see the sword come down, then the camera cuts away. But that scene was still so much more impactful than this. It's almost like they went for shock value rather than drama, then bottled it and didn't give us the shock either.
Ok what the hell was that???Worse than I imagined, I dont know what else I could had expected from such group of talentless writters and directors, I never liked the first season to begin with, even after so many people came out claiming the essence of GOT was backed again, there were not few but MANY things that told otherwise: From the very beggining changes to each faction to make them look good if they were black or bad if they were green, most of them are unrecognizable: Rheanyra been removed of their flaws and power hunger, using Daemon as a way to pass on to him all her ruthlessness... which even now seems to have been too much for the producers since now apparently Daemon never even wanted to hurt Aegons children and his relation with Misery is completley different (even she who was an obviously bad person without conscious is now portrayed in a much better light than the entire green faction!!) Larrys Strong from a cunning man that was a complete mistery on which were his end goals and were his loyalties resided now has a foot fetich for some reason and is responsable for the death of his house (of all the posible culprits:Daemon, Viserys and Corlys of course they went with the green one). Alicent became season 8 John Snow "I doNt wAnt tO usUrp Rhaenyra.." Daeron isnt even in the serie.. Rhaenys idiot scene in Aegon II coronation Criston Cole..maan this guy really was hurt the most easily, from THE KINGMAKER and THE fighter of his era got strip from all of his victories (never really beat Daemon as he did in the books, got his butt whooped by Harrys Strong and ugghhh dont make me recall his "fight" against Joffrey Lonmouth..) and now you want me to swallow he is Alicent´s lover?? do they think Im dumb?? did they forgot what they wrote in the previous season with Criston complaining about been Rhaenyra´s boytoy and now he gladly accepts been Alicent´s?? And the timing!!! my goodness, ok who was the idiot that thought it would be a good idea to make Helaena walk on them RIGHT AFTER WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MOST IMPACTFUL AND SAD SCENE OF PERHAPS THE ENTIRE STORY???!!!
This is literally the only channel that highlights the character assassinations of the greens. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it. It's weird because why are the showrunners behaving like fans?
As a show only/lore knowledgable fan girl I think the episode was a decent start. It felt rushed in parts but it’s probably weird for the show to not breathe and timeskip for once 😂
They skipped through a lot, if we're being honest. It took me by surprise that the Winterfell plotline was only about 15 minutes. There was a lot of stuff to delve into in regards to that narrative. And they could've done so much to build up to Blood and Cheese and make it more satisfying. Instead of showing Daemon planning it, they could've just focused on Aegon and Helaena's relationship with the children. What is that like? The episode could've been all happy and warm in the beginning, only for Blood and Cheese to happen suddenly at the end. We could've been just as shocked as Helaena. Imagine if we saw the Red Wedding being planned? Wouldn't that take away from the impact of the event? The writers could've done a better job here.
SAME!!!! I was hyped to see Blood and Cheese as horrifying as it was. I had to skip ten minutes of blood and cheese fucking around in the red keep. Just....no impact.
I feel like making Helaena a dreamer adds nothing to the story. If she saw what was going to happen, why didn’t she post guards outside of the nursery? Speaking of which, where the hell were all of the guards? The Red Keep was safe but that didn’t mean no guards. Didn’t Helaena, as queen, have her own sworn shield? Lastly, why wasn’t this done in the Tower of the Hand? It would have made more sense, logically, as the Tower had less security. Ugh, f**k this show.
I swear to God, TH-cam reaction channels are so stupidly supportive of the blacks like the showrunners, they either chuckle at Jaehaerys' murder or wait to reveal their glee when Alicole scene comes up. It's so fuckint disgusting they show more sympathy for Rhaenyra's mourning scenes than Helaena's pain.
Think they tried making up for the lack of darkness with sound effects of the innocent child's head been cut off! And heleana hearing it and seeing it while she grabbed the other child, what really felt cheap for me was the fake child doll in different scenes while she's running to alicent! It looks really obvious..hope this show isn't going same way as witchery with writing of plots been completely changed because Ryan condal left for a reason!
There was definitely still BIAS. I rolled my eyes in some moments, but I do think that the episode was pretty good for the most part. I think the Cargyll Twins's duel was executed excellently. That was definitely the highlight of the episode 🙌🏾🔥🔥💯 But "Alicole"... 🤦🏾♂️🤬
The espiod was so underwhelming, People started to change the focus on the animal cruelty aka cheese kicked the dog was more upsetting then the murder on the kid. Sawing sound of a kid head get chopped none reacted. Dog get kicked "OMG ANIMAL ABUSE"
The producers were afraid to go all in with Blood and Cheese, it's so sad this scene was going to be HotDs red wedding and they sort of wasted the opportunity
They try to shield the Blacks by using the "the idea is to show the Dance as result of small accidents and misunderstandings" excuse, but everybody here can see through Condal's glamors, all their lies melt before our keen eyes.
I think they could've made blood and cheese better even without maelor, but that scene was, weird... it was executed poorly. And the fact that they didn't make daemon order it but only an improvision from cheese is just straight up bad.
You're right - it was poorly done. But it was because of the bias of those behind the camera. The writers will never make their precious Rhaenyra and Daemon the villains of the story. Whenever the books say that Daemon or Rhaenyra did something particularly bad or villainous, the writers always find a way to twist the event and explain it away. "The book was written by maesters who were biased...." blah blah blah. 😒
Agreed altogether. They slaughtered the most impactful scene that was supposed to kick off S2 to make it an "justifiable" oopsie, for which Rhaenyra and Daemon are no way responsible. Same reason they removed Maelor (who died horribly = it would def cause pity towards the green faction) and Daeron (universally loved by readers and small folk alike) from the show. Or inserted that unnecessary romance for Alicent (=to make her look vain, out of place, and absorbed by her own interests). I wonder whether they'll conceal the horrors of Rhaenyra's rule and her "Maegor with tits" nickname too, all to make her demise more of shock value. Or maybe she won't even have that graphic demise. Overrall, Dany stans have shifted to Rhaenyra, and showrunners play the same exact trick on them as well (paint her as a hero so that they have more space for uncalled shock value twist in the end).
I mean, they're axing Nettles or her affair with Daemon to keep him as this malewife who cannot groom a minor or cheat on his wife that he abuses physically. They'll remove the racism Rhaenyra showed to a canonically Black female character by either removing the racism or giving Nettles' storyline to Rhaena, who was not canonically Black.
@@MariaHossain really??? Milking the HECK out of Nettles and her alleged affair with Daemon was the 1st thing I expected these salacious folk to do, even before hopping on Sarah Snow and Aemond's lover plotlines!
A lot of valid points here, but I do think that Allicent becomes a much more interesting and dynamic character with the Cole situation. A one dimensional goody, good is just a lot more boring, so I actually like the hypocrisy that this depth adds to her character
Nope , disagree with you. Alicent is not a one dimensional character. They destroyed her character from season 1 . They shouldn't have shyed away from the fact that she desperately wants her son to seat the iron throne. Instead they made it look as a miscommunication with Viserys. They removed her ambition and replaced it with unnecessary sex scandals.
I thought it was fine. Mainly because like with GoT from ASOIF, I divorce HoTD from F&B. They've already made enough significant deviations in characterization in season 1 that I didn't expect the book to be adapted closely. It's fine, for what it is. I expect to be well-entertained, but not truly impressed by more than the acting.
They're just skipping through as quickly ws possible to rush to the next big moment. No character build up, no expansion of the story from the book, which is very basic historical key events, rather than a full story. The approach reminds me of the last couple of seasons of GoT.
House of the Dragon is rushing so much that they just want a dragon fight more than an actual dialogue. The first four seasons of Game of Thrones barely had any dragons and it was better than what we got in HOTD. HOTD is falling to the trap George Lucas fell to when he wrote the Prequels: Nostalgia over actual storytelling. Although Fire & Blood is a history book, I still deep down feel that HOTD was written as if it were a Shakespeare play written by a play writer who is really biased for Team Black unlike the maesters in Fire & Blood (GRR Martin) who are unbiased by working very hard to find multiple sources and POVs to write their texts. It’s similar to the 47 Ronin. They are like heroes in a play or a movie when in truth, according to many Tokugawa Shogunate documents, the ronin were in the wrong as they killed an innocent man just because he accidentally pissed off the ronins’ daimyo who was a pretty lazy and hot-headed leader (similar to Daemon but less violent). The daimyo attacked the innocent official (who barely makes much money but remains dutiful) and was forced to commit seppuku. The ronin blamed the innocent man for their daimyo’s death rather than themselves for not being good advisors to their hot-headed daimyo.
I honestly bursted out in Laughter at the Assassination Scene, heck I plan a Sleepover more dilligently than that :D The whole thing was more fitting for an Adam Sandler Movie
F&B is an outline history book that is deliberately very interpretative as George wanted to empahsize how history is shaped by biases of society. There's not a single character in the Dance that is fully fleshed out. You have to heavily rely on interpretation. So what these stans have done is make elaborate headcanons out of a couple lines for characters they like, while simultaneously rejecting any interpretation for characters they don't like. They straight up ignore all the themes of the show in bad-faith if it goes against their perception of what a character or a scene should be. 90% of the book purist criticisms come down to "my sports team was not portrayed as flawless white hats without any conflict & the other team was not portrayed as black hat NPC villains with zero depth, characterization & screentime". "It's Condal & Hess' fanfic bro". Yeah what they're mad about is that it's not THEIR fanfic.
To be honest I'm only watching House of the Dragon for the same reason I was watching game of Thrones seasons 5-8 (Because it's the only thing closer to Westeros). And I heard that they are giving the Dunk and Egg show to the same writers 😢
You are absolutely right if they would’ve been accurate to the book, the show would’ve been far more intriguing and better to watch you are right I would’ve preferred if they would’ve been accurate to the books it would’ve made for better TV
I don't know why this video was recommended to me, probably because I was perusing hotd phrases in search but I find this is entirely entertaining to me that only now are people complaining how the writing and pacing of the show is bad when it's been bad from the start. And I'm gonna go against the grain and say B&C was fine enough within the confines of what show is because a) it set itself up that way by unnecessary rush and squeezing thirty years into twenty in one season and b) I see a lot of criticism for Helaena's reaction when it's by far the most consistent thing about this mess since she's a dreamer and therefore already detached and weird so rather than screaming and all, she heavily dissociates. There's still time for her to lose it completely since the show runners said Maelor does not exist...yet. But yes, it is not as impactful of an event because that would have required a writing effort from the very start for people to care about the characters as it was for Red Wedding. They didn't so here we are. Also, as a side note...TV Aegon now has a rogue brother and a toddler daughter as candidates for an heir so my best guess, they did it on purpose bla bla bla parallels and all that.
Fuck the books They don’t need to follow everything the book says But why change something to make it less impactful or worse Blood and cheese suppose to make daemon more evil and ruthless in the show it made him look stupid Alicent and criston cole for me is greater disappointment It’s like in season 1 they trying so hard to make us hate alicent and they said oh shit that didn’t work make her go fuck criston cole
Honestly, I think an anime adaptation of ASOIAF (and F&B) would be the best way to get all the information from the books into a series. I think we need to accept at this stage that not everything will be able to get adapted from the books because of monetary constraints etc. We're basically getting an extended movie
Honestly as a mother I would not have been able to emotionally handle it if they'd done it the same way as the book, it was a scene I was dreading when watching the show and had to remove myself from the room when i thought it would occur. That's just me, I'm soft and can't handle anything to do with child murder. It would give me nightmares. I want to watch the story, but there is a lot I can't mentally take. Even you describing what happened has made me feel ill.
It was intentionally written this way to save Daemon's character and continue the theme of the "evil, evil" green devils getting what they deserve. As for Cregan, I think they're done with the long night and any mention of it is simply perfunctory. Sara Snow's story is conjecture in the books. It's a dead end so I'm not disappointed about it. Also the bonding between Cregan and Jacerys doesn't pay off in this story. The pact of ice and fire informed events of the botched game of thrones show, so they probably saw it as irrelevant. The real tragedy here is Helena. I get that she has mental problems, but they made it seem like she was completely unaffected. They're intent on portraying her as a lobotomized madwoman with no human feeling. Which destroyed any emotions I felt about the entire event. They seem to be leaning on the unreliable narrator's excuse too heavily, in favor of the Blacks and Rhaeneyra. Too bad,as this is one of those fascinating parts of the world where there's truly no good guys or bad guys in the end. There's no true winners. This should have been the pivotal point where the rules of decency get thrown out, and it essentially becomes a street fight like in all civil wars. One in which it's no longer clear who the "good" guys are anymore. I think the show runners don't trust their audiences to like such a show, so they're going for one where there's clear heroes and clear villains.The two actresses were robbed of Amy awards worthy moments here. I believe they would have pulled it off beautifully. This would set the season ablaze and would have been the talking point of the whole show. This would have been Fire and Blood's Red Wedding.What a missed opportunity.
I can’t believe no one understands this. So to start, GRRM himself said that Fire and Blood is an unreliable narration of events told by archmaester Gyldayn, HOTD is the true version of events. Secondly, the goal of that scene is not for you to remember B&C. It’s to remember the trauma Helaena just experienced. If we had the version from Fire and Blood, we’d be thinking about how crazy, insane and vile Blood and Cheese were without a thought for Helaena. Thats not the goal of the scene. Do a video about that buddy.
The book version showed the true trauma of Helena and alicent . Helena being given a choice between her sons , and then when she chooses to let the younger one die , as he will not know whats happening. but to make it worse b&c kills the older one and tells the younger one that his mommy chose him to be killed. As a result the boy hated Helena for his whole life , and helena's trauma is just on another level here , first losing her older son , than being hated by her younger son , the scene also had alicent , so that explains her motivation for war , seeing her grandchildren butchered in from of her eyes , It was a tense scene with amazing dialogues and character exploration. In the show neither the characters nor the audience felt anything And having unreliable narration isn't the point here , the point is that they had a vastly superior written and crafted scene that affected the characters so much , and instead they dumped it down to such a level , the scene was laughable , Helena showing no efforts to save her child , b&c letting her runaway , the whole castle seems empty , than cut to alicent riding cole😂 , there were so many plotholes , like why isn't there a single guard in the whole place when Helena was running, especially in the time of war ? , the book even gave explanation for it , but here they didn't gave anything to justify it , they undermined daemons character here , as he was the mastermind behind all of this , they wasted alicent character , and helenas character didn't even felt real
I was absolutely sure the showrunners are going to MILK THE HECK out of Sarah Snow bcuz yeah, you know, GoT/HotD love them some s3x scenes, but instead, they made an unnecessary ship/fanservice with Alicent...
I liked some things too, but my expectations were a bit high. They had two years to hone every detail and make this season perfect. For there to be such major mistakes in the first episode… 🙆🏾♂️
I still find this episode good for the most part but their are issues i have with it mostly for the last 5 minutes.. Everything with the blacks was very predictable while everything with the greens was intriguing. I agree that the writers r making Jace seem bland n it seems they r flying through the starks storyline which to me is extremely frustrating. Now when it comes to blood and cheese n what would fix the scene is that should have kept that helena had guards n they were killed n have aegon second son be there which we still dont know if he exists or not....... Let me clarify with alicent and cole being a thing. It makes sense that they r attracted to each other and they have feelings for one another since they been in each other lives for like 15 years. To me it is not out of character for them wanting to be together n also their aint no oaths that r being broken. Criston already broke his honor with rt and alicent husband is already dead....... What is out of character is the timing of when they actually had sex because its not clarified how long they have been together. The thing is though what i believe people r forgetting is two things. 1. That cole was not only angry with rt for getting him to break his oath it was also because she didnt care about the situation he put him in and she destroyed his viewpoint of her in the process. With alicent he sees someone who actually cares and respects him and she is the embodiment to what he believes is someone who is fit to rule and is worth fighting for. 2. The Cole from the past is not the same cole for the present. The past cole believed in honor and duty but the new cole believes that honor and duty should only be given to someone who deserves it. The new cole looks to alicent as his moral compass to what is right and wrong. He knows he lost his honor for breaking his oath and now his new oaf is to defend alicent and her bloodline at all cost. His white cloak is his illusion to what he is. He is not a knight of the kinsguard anymore he is a knight whose honor is tied to a women and the children that he has been protecting for the last 15 years. U r completely right that the show is very biased towards the blacks ......
Glad I didn’t rush to buy a HBO subscription for June. I knew I needed to skip Blood and Cheese because that scene is pure evil and seeing it would probably make my guts turn. Bitterbridge would also be way to upsetting to see on screen- like B&C, made me really upset to read it. Depending on how the overall story telling in HOTD 2 goes, maybe I’ll pick it up to recap the whole season in August, or pick up HBO next year for Dubk and Egg.
Wow! I concur with EVERYTHING you said in this video, this is exactly what I think about this episode « underwhelming »😏😔I was expecting something different during the scene with Blood & Cheese ; the writers changed so many aspects of the story, I’m very disappointed about this….thanks for sharing your excellent point of view🙏🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻🙋🏼♀️🇨🇦
I would have written out the Alicent and Cole sex scenes and made the scene of Winterfell longer. The sex scenes felt so unnecessary and all I could think about was that they just had sex scenes because they thought, "Game of Thrones isn't Game of Thrones without Sex right). Then I would show the Pact of Ice and Fire with Jace and Cregan, even if it's a couple more minutes in the North because SPOILER FOR SOMEONE WHO HASN'T READ THE BOOK! Jace marries a bastard girl in the North, Sara Snow, to get the North on his mother's side.
Thanks for bringing up the white walker plotline I just want them to not talk about it at all. It reminds me of season eight. We already know they’re not a threat so they should just stick to the dance of the dragons. That’s what we’re here to see. I also don’t like how they bring up Aegon I prophecy as to promote team, black as good and noble, which they’re not both Team Green and Team Black are villains.
I disagree for the most part. Jacerys and Cregans relationship could be explored more throughout the season. Just because the didn’t focus on it in the first episode is a nitpick. With blood and cheese understand the account you read was technically written by someone who wasn’t there. Who was green leaning himself. So to me, the account in fire and blood could be looked at as a dramatization of the actual events. But that’s just my opinion
Finally someone understands!!! Where is Maelor by the way? Is he just not in the show? Wouldn't be surprised if they completely erase daeron. Plus what's the deal with the Alicent & Cole sex relationship
I really don't think it's because of "writer bias" in that sense that they just prefer Rhaenyra/team-black. More likely it's because of a belief that audiences are more engaged with one side being more good (relatively, this is ASOIAF world after all) and one side being more treacherous.
Thanks for the video. How I felt as well, esp the Blood and Cheese scene. The first season was a prologue which shouldv'e set up for more action in season 2. Still early, but with only 8 episodes, hoping to see it pick up in episode 2 and beyond. Always exciting to see it come to life.
I will reuse a comment I made yesterday as I feel the same. _This could have been the most shocking event in GOT history, eclipsing the red wedding if done correctly. There should have been the rending of two mothers' minds over what they had to witness and how she had to choose. It should have been horrifying in a way that leaves people speechless- more for the never ending psychological implications. An unforgivable act of unconscionable proportion. This, wasn't. You've failed if the only gasp was when the dog gets kicked. They should've trusted the audience. It also removes another inevitable horror later that actually is also emblematic of innocence for war grist. Lame. Also the ridiculous letdown of the progression of hypocrisy of Criston and Alicent. Just plopped on the ground. Just, meh._ What makes the Dance so compelling is there is no good guy vs. bad guy. That was never the truly point. It is the destruction of one family in perceptions and pursuit of power by outside factors applying pressure to one part of the group and the hubris in the decisions of the patriarch that was the catalyst of it all. They stripped layers that i think needed to be there to understand the true horror of hypocritical moral turpitude.
but in the show , when Daemon is talking to Blood and he asked him "and if we can't find Aemond?" , and then the scene ends abruptly but I guess it is implied he told them to kill whathever son they could find. Also, he killed his wife on the show and that was only implied in the books, so I guess the showrunners are not entirely whitewhising the blacks as much as the audicence is.
Yes but Rhaenyra is whitewashed. They didn’t show a lot of her very negative characteristics. She had virtues like intelligence and charm to make a good queen but she was also exhibiting the standard Targaryen entitlement and arrogance, quick to anger, slow to forgive, frivolous to a degree. And then they despite humanizing the Greens also add more negative characteristics. I mean we are first introduced to Rhaenyra while she badass flying on her dragon while our first impression of Aegon grown is him raping a woman. That cements in the audience mind who to root for. Aegon was a drunk and sired bastards but he wasn’t a full on rapist
They didn't need to show them actually being killed. They could've done many things to suggest their deaths (e.g. there's nothing wrong with Jaehaerys dying off screen and us panning on Helaena's reaction to it). The problem that we have is that the children are sleeping, Alicent isn;t even in the room because she's having sex, Helaena doesn't even offer her own life, Maelor isn't there, Helaena barely even emotes... WTF WAS THAT!!!??? 🤬🤬😭😭😭
@@thecriticalmaester9702 every production these days has a safety/intimacy coordinator keeping tabs on everything the actors are exposed to. A book accurate scene was never going to happen.
@@Guinnessdrnkr1234 I thought intimacy coordinators were for sex scenes? Even so, we don’t see Helaena begging desperately which really brings out the trauma that will occur for her and the absolute horror of this scene. The son for a son was so impactful because she made to chose between her two boys. They were waiting for her too in Alicent’s room as the children were brought to play there.
@@thecriticalmaester9702please tell me how you expected a 5 year old actor to cry on command? Or have a 6’4 man with a knife held to his neck mentally torturing him? Just be fr and say you wanted to watch kids get tortured. Blood and cheese is a catalyst. It did what it needed to do to progress the plot. We’re literally only one episode in so stop being so dramatic. Heleana also doesn’t need to offer her own life because she literally heard what they were there for. She offered a valyrian steel necklace and they said “thats no son”. Even if she said “take me instead” they’d still kill her son lol. Plus cheese said that if she made even a little peep he’d kill her.
Something that has to be mentioned is that doing it like it was described in the books could be very scaring for a child actor. I mean those kids were very young and if they included Maelor, that kid would be even younger. So being this age and having a grown man who already looks and talks threatining enough, hold a sharp object at your throat and then hear the screams of the woman infront of you who literally beggs them not to kill you can be beyond traumatic. And then imagine they would have included the severed head. Many say that the Red Wedding was also brutal so why not make thos s ene brutal aswell. But all of the actors in The Red Wedding were grown up and could destinguish between scene and reality but a child that young... I belive the mental health of child actors is more important than fan service
They could've replaced the kids with CGI. You can make a whole ass dragon with CGI, so why not children? The beheading could've been off screen but the psychological torture that Blood and Cheese make Alicent, Helaena, Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor go through is the point. No existence of Maelor, thus making Helaena choose between her son and daughter. No Alicent present, rather having sex with Criston. No strangled maid of Alicent or killed guard of Helaena. No rape threats to Jaehaera from Blood if Helaena didn't choose between her two sons. No Cheese taunting Maelor with "your mommy chose you to die" before killing Jaehaerys. No bonding scenes between Alicent and her grandchildren, or Helaena and her children, or Helaena and her sons. It's all ruined and team green and the book fans are right in their complaints.
@@MariaHossain First of all. Making people out of CGI has almost always failed in TV Shows. People would have complained about that aswell. They would have said that they don't realistic and that they couldn't take the scene seriously. I am also a huge fan of the Book. And I am Teem Green (has the more interesting characters in my opinion). And I am not dissapointed. The thing is: If you are a Fan of the book and you expect everything in the Show to happen just like in the book sooner or later you will be dissapointed. In the book F&B there is often more than one version of the story. I just see the show as another one. I am not saying that you can't voice your opinions. But to say the show is ruined now is just not true
Yes thank you... The episode wasn't bad butbit could have been so much more!! The dialogue was great though and the scene with Jace and Rhaenyra was absolutely perfect but other than that we could have had 2 episodes or even 3 for.this whole thing but yet it was so rushed and codensed. Pacing is still an issue with this show.
The only reason I would excuse the whole Blood and cheese situation, is that many things in this show were just accidents that escalated the tension. Such as Aemond killing Luc wich was an accident. I will also say that the whole situation with Fire and blood is that it was written with green biases. And Daemon sending Blood and Cheese to kill Aemond makes a whole lot more sense than him spitefully sending them to kill an infant. But this presents a bigger problem and that is agency. Because it’s all accidental and luck, the characters aren’t driving the conflict, but rather the show runners.
Great points, the amount of mistake chaos twists as a tool in the show besides the key plot seems to start to undermine clear attitudes and as a result starts to lack suspense as I expect horror attitudes not to work going forth and become more mistakes. Hoping for good surprises on the next episodes.
I think Larys might not want to become Hand. Actually, I thougt that he might point Cole to be the Hand to be able to create a distance between Cole and Allicent. If this was the case, it would steel allow Cole to become Hand in the future, like in the books... The only thing I desagree with you is on Helaena´s reaction. I think her reaction was accordingly with everything we've seen so far frome her in the tv show. She looks terrified and completly desoriented. But she is very different frome Helaena from the books, so I undertand and accept this choise for her reaction. Great video once again!
This is the final nail to the coffin that the show universe and the book universe are not the same universe. GOT diverged from the books a lot, HOTD did the same thing.
honestly if you watched that episode and you think blacks are still good then you need to watch the last 20mins again lol. maybe the next episodes will make that clearer to you. the point showrunners want to make is that there are no good guys
The problem is that a large percentage of the audience is willing to excuse their war crimes just because they already got attached to them, see them as "badass" and "out for the crown that is rightfully theirs", so the show actually did a horrible job if their goal really was to portray both sides as morally gray and undeserving. At this point, even if Rhaenyra herself came and killed the baby, they would be willing to find excuses for her. People like you are rare, and that's why painting the Greens as generally bad (ex. Aegon raping the maid, Alicent having a relationship with Cole) only adds fuel to the fire instead of presenting both sides as equal
@@ingetamm7951 100% even though i'm team black i agree most black stans are the one's are i actually find annoying. they keep comparing aegon to joffrey which makes no sense. its like they always refuse to see the show from a nuanced perspective. i remember how pissed they were when aemond killing lucerys was made to seem like an accident lol
Yes, the sounds were horrible... but the scene could've been done a lot better. The stuff that was in the source material was strong already, it didn't need to be changed.
Ok we have no connection to Helena’s children we have one reference to them when dyana gets assaulted by aegon. Season 2 we see Jaehaerys once at the council annoying Tyland we’re not even slightly invested in his character because he’s made 2 appearances. How are we supposed to feel anything for this situation when we barely know the child. We loved luke because he was in the actual show and we grow with him.. Jaehaerys is practically a stranger to the audience. I was more outraged seeing the 2 faced alicent getting the queens sloppy seconds while pretending she is some devout pious woman when she is in fact a whole $lut lol
you fell into the anti-green trap set by the show runners, but that's okay. And going from the circumstances that were presented to us, how is Alicent a whore for having a life after her husband dies lol? By all accounts, she's a free woman now, but she was loyal to her vows to him up until his last moments. That's not the same as Rhaenyra cheating on her husband for years and not even bothering to take moon tea
Exactly. People forget that game of thrones had MANY off-screen deaths that everyone just conveniently forgets about. What about Stannis dying offscreen? What about shireen dying offscreen to where we can only hear screaming? It’s so tiring, this fanbase is so overdramatic.
@@mattcollins3591 but that's exactly the point. They didn't have to show a child dying - what the book fans are angry about are the surrounding circumstances being changed, such as lack of Halaena's reaction, the whole tragedy of her choosing a son who then gets to live with the thought of "your mom wanted you dead" and etc
Allicent is the real victim in this episode she got character assassinated real bad. And even worse what the show runners did made fans blame Allicent who was supposed to be the VICTIM of the situation for her grandson's death when it was a planned revenge plot from the Blacks in the books.
What they're doing with her character and Ser Criston's is just... I don't even know what to say about it. In the book, they are the master conspirators who put Aegon on the throne, two of the top schemers in the kingdoms. On the show, they're fuckbuddies who are in denial about the war - Alicent is at least. 🤦🏾♂
@@thecriticalmaester9702It's completely plausible that this Criston and F&B Criston could be the same. F&B is outside perspectives years later based on second hand accounts.
Tyrion in the books was seen as an evil mastermind leading poor Joffrey down the wrong path.
That said, I do agree with the criticism.
B&C just felt so lazy and rushed. We got to see Aegon with his son for how long? Like a minute? And we get nothing with Helaena and her son nor any scenes at all with him and Alicent. All of the connections that made his death hit hard was not there. Yet, with Rhaenyra and Luke we got plenty of entire episodes of them together
Maelor wasn’t even in season 1, like at all. So I have no idea why everyone is so up in arms acting like b and c is some major turning point in the story when it isn’t.
You’re just coping because this isn’t what you wanted.
@@mattcollins3591 Because it is a major turning point and it’s crucial to portray the grey morality in both sides. Yeah, it’s not what I want because it chose not to follow the source material.
nobody wants to see a toddler get murdered, that turn off alot of viewers
Honestly, the Blood and Cheese moment felt so underwhelming. I was expecting to feel the same way I did with the Red Wedding, but I didn’t.
It should’ve felt that way, but the writers botched it. It’s because of their bias. I don’t think anyone can deny it now 🙅🏾♂️
The Red Wedding was a full scale massacre, so the comparison was never going to work anyway.
@@josephbulkin9222True. But I’m talking about the shock of seeing a child being murdered in such a gruesome way. Maybe another example would be that I didn’t feel the same way I did when Shireen was sacrificed.
I'm not a book reader, but I've seen the description of this event & I 100% agree with you. The entire scene plays out in an implausible way. First off, they're just wandering through the castle without anyone pay them any mind. This makes no sense. They should've strictly been moving through secret hidden passages, unseen by anyone. Second, why is the queen unguarded. Shouldn't be being shadowed by a Kings guard with her as she walks through the castle. At least their should be guards throughout that area.
YESSS THERE SHOULD’VE BEEN MORE SUSPENSE AS B&C MOVED AROUND THE CASTLE, DODGING THE GUARDS ETC. THE KIDS SHOULD’VE ALSO BEEN AWAKE SO THE “YOUR MOTHER CHOSE YOU TO DIE” LINE COULD WORK
("...Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and _“make them their own.”_
It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or… well, anyone.
No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and _“improve”_ on it.
_“The book is the book, the film is the film,”_ they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound.
Then they make the story their own.
*_They never make it better, though_* Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse...")
- George RR Martin
Our man was trying to warn us with that blog post, but I was just a sweet summer child then.
He warned us and we didn’t listen. My theory is that he saw the better cut before the reshoots, which was why he said it was great on his blog. It’s telling that he wasn’t at any of the premieres, isn’t it?
I now know who he was talking about. He knew exactly what he was doing with that post - who it was directed at. 🙄
Yeah most authors HATE their own movies because of the changes. I mean Stephen King and Veronica Roth notably hate their own films.
I mean even the Bridgerton show on Netflix is under fire for a lot of book changes they are doing for the next season.
Henry Cavill quit the Witcher because they were going off book
I mean these people even don’t even seem to like the original books for what they were and make changes that will make sense and pay homage to the books. The writers for the Lord of the Rings films made some changes like with Arwen’s character but these changes made sense and didn’t take away from the original story
Yep and this quote made me buy the books.
Cristin Cole’s whole character has been assassinated at this point. The reason he hates Rhaenyra is because she made him forsake his vows! Why would he know suddenly be willing to forsake his vows by bedding Alice!
YESSS! S1 Criston’s devotion to Alison Cole felt genuine because it felt like he knew this is the woman who’s also virtuous and would never take advantage of his vows!
@@aeri_taylors-version what? His vow is of chastity. He made a big stink that Rhaenyra wouldn't marry him to make up for it. He's morally grey because he's a hypocrite.
@@JobberV I just wish they could have kept him like his in the book. He is a noble knight who doesn’t forsake his vow yet convinces Aegon to become king which start a war. Sounds a like a lot cooler character than just being a hypocrite.
wow, it's almost as if he's a hypocrite...
@@fidalf99 no, as a kingsguard he supported the interest of his perceived king. He’s not a hypocrite just a horrible person who started a war
They really dropped the ball on Blood and cheese. The point was to show that this is war there are no true “good or bad guys”
Martin expertly creates characters that inspire both sympathy and hatred. When he wrote the dance of dragons he wrote it in a way that both sides had virtues and flaws, both sides committed atrocities and victories.
Blood and cheese was horrific and Daemon and too a degree Rhaenyra was all for it. They forced Helaena to choose either her younger son Maelor or older son Jaehaerys to die (hate they cut out Maelor) and if she refused they threatened to rape Jaehaera. She chose Maelor and they killed Jaehaerys. This is when Aegon really took responsibility and stepped up since his son was murdered and Helaena never recovered. She went MAD with grief and could barely hold her younger son. They didn’t show her watching with horror as her son was killed. They didn’t show Alicent being gagged and forced to watch her grandson murdered. They didn’t show the killers waiting for her, not stumbling on accident. They even took Jaehaery’s severed head with them to give to Daemon and Rhaenyra.
While I agree that if the blacks really wanted justice Aemond would be killed and show says that but… the point of blood and cheese being so horrific and brutal was to show that the Blacks aren’t innocent victims in all of this. Here they made blood and cheese a mistake. They didn’t show the pure evil and brutality of Rhaenyra and Daemon condoning such an act. This act that would push the commoners against them. And they needed the two sons to make Helaena choose because that mad “son for a son” so powerful.
Ultimately the small folk LOVED Helaena and I hated how they cut out how much the commoners loved Helaena and her children as an exemplary consort versus Daemon. And her suicide and the murder of her sons really drove the commoners to hate on Rhaenyra.
This just shows their bias towards the blacks by not portraying blood and cheese the way it is: a brutal and horrific murder of an innocent child. Yes the Greens are not innocent they have committed atrocities like the murder of Luke but to not show the atrocities of the blacks just shows the bias.
And to have her walk in Alicent and Criston afterwards!!! Whoever wrote that should be FIRED!!! I never took those two to have a physical affair. They obviously are trauma bonded together after their bad experiences with sex but due to Alicent’s trauma and religious beliefs and Criston wanting to cling to his vows it seems out of character for them to have a physical affair rather than emotional.
They are trying to make the Greens as unsympathetic and unlivable as possible, essentially forcing audiences to side with the Blacks which is not the original story that didn’t encourage a side. The original story showed sources bias towards Rhaenyra and towards Aegon. Equal virtues and flaws for both.
I’m absolutely disappointed especially since this will feed into the Black Stans who think Daemon and Rhaenyra are the good guys and just simply “make mistakes” when they are blood thirsty and cruel. Why else do they call Rhaenyra Maegor with teats.
the chilling “Your own mother chose you to die” or smth along those line that was said by B&C to Maelor was also cut. it was such a good line ffs
@@aeri_taylors-version it’s cause they didn’t show Maelor which also didn’t make the scene as impactful.
It was son for a son. Helaena was made to chose between her two boys.
@@via-anghelmagahum2586 They want to turn the Blacks into the Starks so bad even though Daemon’s moral compass was much closer to those of Ramsay Bolton than to Jon Snow.
He was called “The Rogue Prince” for a reason.
@@via-anghelmagahum2586 yeah and it ruined the scene even further
@@nont18411 Even so, the Starks don’t always have the moral high ground. Even though the Starks are very honorable and amazing people in general, they were also flawed human beings and were presented as such and viewed as such. Catelyn was a wonderful leader and mother to her kids but treated Jon Snow like the pebble in her shoe. Eddard Stark lied to his wife for decades about Jon. Arya is great but she’s also impulsive, blood thirsty, etc. Sansa has a spine of steel but she also has made some bad choices in who to trust. Rob is a great commander but made stupid choices and ruled with his heart (marrying Talisa) but failed to rule with his head.
The Lannisters are definitely more evil but they have their moments. Tyrion strives to make Sansa more comfortable and didn’t pressure her and respected her boundaries, standing up for her during their wedding. Cersei is disgusting but she has one redeeming quality, she loves her children. She loved her children fiercely although she wasn’t mother of the year by all means, but she loved her babies more than life itself. Jaime is flawed and many ways but slowly works his way towards redemption.
That’s the thing, the original Game of Thrones stories had these characters who were not traditional in the good versus evil and good guy and bad guy sense like with LOTD, but ASOIAF characters inspire both sympathy and hatred. They are flawed and that’s what made them so interesting and compelling.
Here, the writers have done some good changes for both greens and blacks. They make Aemond out to be a bullied kid, Alicent a groomed teenager, etc. but their obvious favoritism of Rhaenyra comes off almost as if they want her to be the “good guy” while the greens are the “bad guy”. The writers and black stans appear to want it to be black and white. Rhaenyra is the good guy to them. They view her as some radical feminist who can do no wrong who is morally superior when it is far more complicated than that.
The writers were so desperate for putting Blood and Cheese on the first episode as a tool for shock
I thought they were going to use it to end season 1
Last week I was for sure it’d be like an episode 4 mid season crazy event
it should’ve been put in ep 3 the earliest 😭 they rushed it
It's literally the next thing that happens following Luke's death. How much filler did you want to push it back 3-4 episodes.
It could’ve been episode 2-3. At this point in books Daemon has taken Harrenhall. Jace spent 2 minutes in north where he spent several weeks traveling tryna to raise support. We don’t see him go to the Vale & meeting Lady Jeyne Arryn who is Rhaenyra cousin & one of her most fervent supporters. We don’t get the green discussions of alliances & how they need a new masters of ships. It was a throwaway sentence. Blood & Cheese if they really wanted could’ve been episode 2 or you could’ve started Episode 3 with it.,
"Those dangers weren't really that dangerous, I've watched S8, yall handled them in 1 episode" the shade!
Ok but one episode can be like 10 years time so… Ik that ep wasn’t but still. Also it was rushed just like everything at the end of got. They need to get some different writers (some who read the books) to write.
Not a fan of the books, but Allicent giving up cheeks to Cole does seem rather out of character. It's out of character for both of them.
Yes I’m very very disappointed in that scene. They made so many changes to these two characters that they are now so so unlikable.
Yes they aged down Alicent and made her more a victim but now they’re taking away so much of her agency by making her this bystander and bad mother.
Criston is made out to be this misogynistic jealous ex of Rhaenyra instead of the skilled politician schemer and brutal warrior that even Jaime Lannister admires from history. The man who bested Daemon twice and Harwin Strong.
This scene was used to make the Greens look bad as now the Black Stans who think this is a Rhaenyra is the protagonist show when it was never like that (there were no good guys or bad guys, just complicated characters who think they’re in the right who commit atrocities and victories who are flawed and virtuous) can just look and blame Criston and Alicent for what happened like “why wasn’t Criston at his post”
I do think in the show Alicent and Criston have deep feelings for each other. He’s the only man whose never taken advantage of Alicent in some way or used her. They both trauma bonded regarding their experiences of being sexually exploited by Targaryens, but because of Alicent’s religion and no doubt her traumas regarding sex and Criston’s determination to uphold his vows this seems SO out of character and almost as if the writers are going out of their way to make them so hypocritical and nasty. Alicent as dowager Queen has significant power over Criston just as Rhaenyra had over him. After knowing what he went through she’d never take advantage of him like this regardless of how much he may want it
And the sex distracts and takes away from the shear brutality and horror of Blood and Cheese
how come? They have literally shown from the first episode that she was interested in Cole and hinted heavily that she was jealous of Rhaenyra's affair with him. Both of them were shown to be hypocrites in some things, I have not read the book when I saw season 1 and it was quite clear to me that an affair was brewing back then and was a matter of time.
Alicent and Cole sex scene was COMPLETELY unnecessary, like it was supposed to be the most horrific scene and they just insert a sex scene.
Walking in on her own mum too, it's bordering on dark comedy.
Wasn’t everyone wondering where Cole was?
it was done to tarnish Alicent even more, showing how she's basically a hypocrite for criticizing Rhaenyra for her extramarital affairs, except that technically she did nothing wrong here - her husband was already dead, so they went with the "careless mother" instead
@@ingetamm7951 Exactly. The two are hardly comparable. Rhaenyra had bastard kids despite being in the line of succession. Alicent is a widowed grandmother whose true born son is already on the throne. If she wants to have a discreet side piece, she's paid her dues.
Finally youtuber not being HBO shill
Show runners making a fanfiction of fire and blood. A badly made one with rhaenyra as the protagonist, it's a insult to us books readers.
So true Bryden so true
100% true
@@via-anghelmagahum2586 absolutely
Fire and Blood is a Green fanfic of the war.
@@billiramone and hotd is a black fanfic
After watching that abomination of a scene, I realized that at least D&D were competent in adapting the Red Wedding.
What they did with Alice and Cole was just as bad if not worse they completely changed their dynamic.
does that also happen in the book?
@@fourth-dimensionalbeing9737 nope. i think that's what makes it such a weird and jarring change for me.
It completely goes against Alicent character. Just like that ridiculous foot fetish scene from season 1. Just purely stupid scenes.
@@soleil.8044 maaann! wtf are they doing with show? "All must choose" my ass! How r people suppose to choose when it leans heavily towards the Blacks?. And what's worst for me is they'd likely cut out Daeron n Tessarion frm the show. It's season 2 already and still no mention of them.
It's perfect for the biased writers because now they can turn the finger and blame the Greens for the event, instead of Daemon and Rhaenyra. Now people can say, "Why wasn't Criston Cole at his post?" or "Why were Alicent and Cole having sex instead of protecting Helaena and her children?"
What they're doing to Ser Criston's character is more villainous than Blood and Cheese in the book. It's hard to believe that this is the man that Jaime thinks about so much and amaybe even admires in the books. 🤦🏾♂😭
For those who don't understand why book fans are upset by the changes made think of why fans of the original ATLA show are so disappointed by the Netflix adaptation. The story and the characters were reduced and butchered which is a justifiable thing to complain about. These 'book purist' as you call them aren't just bitching/moaning/ being nitpicky they're giving a good critique and commentary of the show and they bring to light how biased the show runners are being and how this bias reduces the story and it's message.
If you don't understand this where this channel and book fans are coming from despite watching the video then maybe rewatch the video and other videos regarding the topic so you could understand more. Or just not and do other things in your life then antagonizing people who want to see a story at it's full glory and potential. No one is forcing you to change your mind about the show people here are just expressing their thoughts and feelings which are valid. Learn to understand where others are coming from instead of being quick to call people names and accusing them of being bitchy and nitpicky.
They're only saying that because they like the changes because they're team black. They're just using this to dismiss all criticism of the show. That's why they keep saying "The book isn't true. Just like history, it is biased". They're basically claiming the show is the real cannon or at the very least the books are biased so they can be disregarded. Which is funny because the book makes both sides look bad
@@rexblade504 When you think about it even if the books might be biased and innacuratte to what actually happened the message that the story tells us is what truly matters. The books show a story of both sides becoming the worse they are all for power while people around them suffer for it. What made GRRM's work special was how it shows that war is always no good and that any side of war has nuance and complexity. But the show is just a basic good vs bad storyline that goes against what it's supposed to be making it a bad adaptation. You have the choice to make changes and not adapt things but adapting the core and message of the story is something you should always prioritize.
@@Solace-Guillotine-4140 Yeah but that destroys their narrative
Its an hit or miss when making adaptations, for example Viserys was much better than in the books by GRRM admission, Paddy Considine was excellent.
At least D&D have an excuse that they lacked source material. That’s why they botched the ending.
HOTD has all the source material in the world and they chose not to follow it.
D&D would've done Blood and Cheese justice
The sad part is, you're probably right
@@rexblade504 they would have done more to develop a relationship between aegon, halaena and their kids along with alicent just like they did in got with Robb, catelyn and talisa
Didn’t they have stannis’ death off screen? Wasn’t shireens offscreen as well?
If D n D were back, you’d all complain about other things as well. It’s par for the course at this point.
@@mattcollins3591 D&D did a decent job of adapting George's writings that have already been finished. Case in point: Red Wedding
@@mattcollins3591 D&D only fumbled when they had to make their own original ideas
Honestly it’s so sad what they did they were supposed to break the bias not make it worse
You expect too much from them.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 At least with DnD, we can still give them an excuse that they botched the ending because they didn’t have the source material. We cannot say the same thing for HOTD.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 I know but from the actor getting more screen time to the showrunners saying they’ll portray a more gray story for both sides I just thought they would finally take criticism but the worst part is that this is how season five of GOT started with people telling book purest to quit whining a couple years later season 8 came I think the cycle is repeating itself
@@AegonTargaryenthesecond3096 They took the blame out of Daemon’s hands, even though everything in Blood and Cheese should have been intentional in his (and Rhaenyra’s) part. Daemon should have been a likable Ramsay Bolton who can ride a dragon, not this half-cooked antihero.
@@nont18411 it’s true I actually like Daemon despite being team green all the way but I also know his huge flaws
I really have no confidence in the writers now. They didn't really give us Blood & Cheese, so now I doubt they will give us
****book spoilers****
Aegon III seeing his mother die. The death of Princess Jaehaera (which was always suss), Joffery's fall or the bit on the bridge?
The whole point of the Dance of the Dragons is that it almost wipes out the entire family tree on both sides. Their children end up paying the price. The innocents suffer the most. What's the point if they don't show it?
You’re only one episode in. Stop being so dramatic you big baby. Blood and cheese is a catalyst. It did what it needed to do to progress the plot, it didn’t need to be gore or torture corn
Aegon never usurped his sisters throne. By all the laws and historical precedent he is the rightful king of Westeros.
My mistake. 😅
A King's word is LAW. Viserys declared Rhaenyra Targaryen his heir and the Realm bent the knee and declared their allegiance. All who denied the true Queen the of Seven Kingdoms are traitors.
@@Jester2415a King is not above the law. Historically those who thought they were... Well it didn't end well for them.
@@Jester2415 “Rhaenyra Targaryen was daughter to a king, sister to a king, and mother to two more… but she died a traitors death trying to usurp her brothers throne.” -Stannis Baratheon rightful king of Westeros.
@@Jester2415 The histories of Westeros never recognize Rhaenyra as queen. Even Rhaenyras own children recognized Aegon as the rightful king. Using your logic Viserys could have made a dog the heir and everyone would have had to bow to it?
Oh, it was underwhelming even if you DID NOT read the book! So hastily done, so clumsily done, so boring even! And I understand that Helaena had already seen this happen, hence why she was so strangely calm, having come to terms with it long before, but still she was way too emotionless and that helped make all this quite STALE! I think this scene should not have happened right on the first episode but clearly the showrunners are willing to hasten the narrative for either budget or, worse, HBO's directive! I think this show will not have many seasons, probably just three, and that IF they do not continue to expedite things like in this episode!
Im tired of every pivotal moment or choice by the greens or blacks is an accident
Ned Stark didn’t get executed. See Ilyn Payne just tripped and his sword fell on Ned’s neck.
Boo hoo, thats how most wars start anyways, misunderstandings
@Leaf-tf5oo maybe but u telling me every other action or reaction is also a "misunderstanding " FOH
They making the books seem ALOT more interesting …I was mad about the part wen they killed the baby tho then the Queen just causally walked out the room I don’t think real assassins would have just let her go
They weren't real assassins really. One was just a random soldier he came in contact with no?
1: they aren’t real assassins
2: she’s autistic, people with autism react differently in stressful situations
As if GoT wasn't warning enough. When they keep to the book, it's great. The showrunners get high on themselves and change more things.
Because they do not understand what they're doing, it becomes shit.
Something tells me that the greens ain’t going get no justice and daeron ain’t going be a big figure in the show because the producers of the show want to play favorites with the blacks I’ll wait to see what happens next hopefully I’m wrong
I couldn't agree with you more. I was a bit disappointed. I felt the scene with Blood and Cheese, was so dim. I expected a bit more emotions from the Queen. Especially seeing her child being murdered. I didn't have to see the child being murdered, but I wanted to see more emotions.
We don't see Ned Stark die either. We see the sword come down, then the camera cuts away. But that scene was still so much more impactful than this. It's almost like they went for shock value rather than drama, then bottled it and didn't give us the shock either.
I am sure phia Saban was set to play breakout performance if they played according to canon b&c.
Ok what the hell was that???Worse than I imagined, I dont know what else I could had expected from such group of talentless writters and directors, I never liked the first season to begin with, even after so many people came out claiming the essence of GOT was backed again, there were not few but MANY things that told otherwise:
From the very beggining changes to each faction to make them look good if they were black or bad if they were green, most of them are unrecognizable:
Rheanyra been removed of their flaws and power hunger, using Daemon as a way to pass on to him all her ruthlessness... which even now seems to have been too much for the producers since now apparently Daemon never even wanted to hurt Aegons children and his relation with Misery is completley different (even she who was an obviously bad person without conscious is now portrayed in a much better light than the entire green faction!!)
Larrys Strong from a cunning man that was a complete mistery on which were his end goals and were his loyalties resided now has a foot fetich for some reason and is responsable for the death of his house (of all the posible culprits:Daemon, Viserys and Corlys of course they went with the green one).
Alicent became season 8 John Snow "I doNt wAnt tO usUrp Rhaenyra.."
Daeron isnt even in the serie..
Rhaenys idiot scene in Aegon II coronation
Criston Cole..maan this guy really was hurt the most easily, from THE KINGMAKER and THE fighter of his era got strip from all of his victories (never really beat Daemon as he did in the books, got his butt whooped by Harrys Strong and ugghhh dont make me recall his "fight" against Joffrey Lonmouth..) and now you want me to swallow he is Alicent´s lover?? do they think Im dumb?? did they forgot what they wrote in the previous season with Criston complaining about been Rhaenyra´s boytoy and now he gladly accepts been Alicent´s?? And the timing!!! my goodness, ok who was the idiot that thought it would be a good idea to make Helaena walk on them RIGHT AFTER WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MOST IMPACTFUL AND SAD SCENE OF PERHAPS THE ENTIRE STORY???!!!
This is literally the only channel that highlights the character assassinations of the greens. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it. It's weird because why are the showrunners behaving like fans?
As a show only/lore knowledgable fan girl I think the episode was a decent start. It felt rushed in parts but it’s probably weird for the show to not breathe and timeskip for once 😂
They skipped through a lot, if we're being honest. It took me by surprise that the Winterfell plotline was only about 15 minutes. There was a lot of stuff to delve into in regards to that narrative. And they could've done so much to build up to Blood and Cheese and make it more satisfying.
Instead of showing Daemon planning it, they could've just focused on Aegon and Helaena's relationship with the children. What is that like? The episode could've been all happy and warm in the beginning, only for Blood and Cheese to happen suddenly at the end. We could've been just as shocked as Helaena.
Imagine if we saw the Red Wedding being planned? Wouldn't that take away from the impact of the event? The writers could've done a better job here.
SAME!!!! I was hyped to see Blood and Cheese as horrifying as it was. I had to skip ten minutes of blood and cheese fucking around in the red keep. Just....no impact.
I feel like making Helaena a dreamer adds nothing to the story. If she saw what was going to happen, why didn’t she post guards outside of the nursery? Speaking of which, where the hell were all of the guards? The Red Keep was safe but that didn’t mean no guards. Didn’t Helaena, as queen, have her own sworn shield? Lastly, why wasn’t this done in the Tower of the Hand? It would have made more sense, logically, as the Tower had less security. Ugh, f**k this show.
Episode 1 💩
I swear to God, TH-cam reaction channels are so stupidly supportive of the blacks like the showrunners, they either chuckle at Jaehaerys' murder or wait to reveal their glee when Alicole scene comes up. It's so fuckint disgusting they show more sympathy for Rhaenyra's mourning scenes than Helaena's pain.
Think they tried making up for the lack of darkness with sound effects of the innocent child's head been cut off! And heleana hearing it and seeing it while she grabbed the other child, what really felt cheap for me was the fake child doll in different scenes while she's running to alicent! It looks really obvious..hope this show isn't going same way as witchery with writing of plots been completely changed because Ryan condal left for a reason!
Totally agree
I'm looking forward to you talking about episode 2, which for me was even more biased towards the blacks
There was definitely still BIAS. I rolled my eyes in some moments, but I do think that the episode was pretty good for the most part. I think the Cargyll Twins's duel was executed excellently. That was definitely the highlight of the episode 🙌🏾🔥🔥💯
But "Alicole"... 🤦🏾♂️🤬
The espiod was so underwhelming, People started to change the focus on the animal cruelty aka cheese kicked the dog was more upsetting then the murder on the kid.
Sawing sound of a kid head get chopped none reacted.
Dog get kicked "OMG ANIMAL ABUSE"
Excellent video. Articulated my feelings exactly.
Thank you for watching.
The producers were afraid to go all in with Blood and Cheese, it's so sad this scene was going to be HotDs red wedding and they sort of wasted the opportunity
finally someone calling out what a horrible that ep was
They try to shield the Blacks by using the "the idea is to show the Dance as result of small accidents and misunderstandings" excuse, but everybody here can see through Condal's glamors, all their lies melt before our keen eyes.
I think they could've made blood and cheese better even without maelor, but that scene was, weird... it was executed poorly. And the fact that they didn't make daemon order it but only an improvision from cheese is just straight up bad.
You're right - it was poorly done. But it was because of the bias of those behind the camera. The writers will never make their precious Rhaenyra and Daemon the villains of the story. Whenever the books say that Daemon or Rhaenyra did something particularly bad or villainous, the writers always find a way to twist the event and explain it away. "The book was written by maesters who were biased...." blah blah blah. 😒
Agreed altogether. They slaughtered the most impactful scene that was supposed to kick off S2 to make it an "justifiable" oopsie, for which Rhaenyra and Daemon are no way responsible. Same reason they removed Maelor (who died horribly = it would def cause pity towards the green faction) and Daeron (universally loved by readers and small folk alike) from the show. Or inserted that unnecessary romance for Alicent (=to make her look vain, out of place, and absorbed by her own interests). I wonder whether they'll conceal the horrors of Rhaenyra's rule and her "Maegor with tits" nickname too, all to make her demise more of shock value. Or maybe she won't even have that graphic demise. Overrall, Dany stans have shifted to Rhaenyra, and showrunners play the same exact trick on them as well (paint her as a hero so that they have more space for uncalled shock value twist in the end).
I mean, they're axing Nettles or her affair with Daemon to keep him as this malewife who cannot groom a minor or cheat on his wife that he abuses physically. They'll remove the racism Rhaenyra showed to a canonically Black female character by either removing the racism or giving Nettles' storyline to Rhaena, who was not canonically Black.
@@MariaHossain really??? Milking the HECK out of Nettles and her alleged affair with Daemon was the 1st thing I expected these salacious folk to do, even before hopping on Sarah Snow and Aemond's lover plotlines!
A lot of valid points here, but I do think that Allicent becomes a much more interesting and dynamic character with the Cole situation.
A one dimensional goody, good is just a lot more boring, so I actually like the hypocrisy that this depth adds to her character
Nope , disagree with you. Alicent is not a one dimensional character. They destroyed her character from season 1 . They shouldn't have shyed away from the fact that she desperately wants her son to seat the iron throne. Instead they made it look as a miscommunication with Viserys. They removed her ambition and replaced it with unnecessary sex scandals.
the issue is we don't even know if Sara snow existis in book cannon since some say she didn't exisit
Somehow ep2 was worse
I've got hammed in comments sections just for having the option that the B&C plot was handed badly
I thought it was fine. Mainly because like with GoT from ASOIF, I divorce HoTD from F&B. They've already made enough significant deviations in characterization in season 1 that I didn't expect the book to be adapted closely. It's fine, for what it is. I expect to be well-entertained, but not truly impressed by more than the acting.
They're just skipping through as quickly ws possible to rush to the next big moment. No character build up, no expansion of the story from the book, which is very basic historical key events, rather than a full story.
The approach reminds me of the last couple of seasons of GoT.
House of the Dragon is rushing so much that they just want a dragon fight more than an actual dialogue. The first four seasons of Game of Thrones barely had any dragons and it was better than what we got in HOTD. HOTD is falling to the trap George Lucas fell to when he wrote the Prequels: Nostalgia over actual storytelling.
Although Fire & Blood is a history book, I still deep down feel that HOTD was written as if it were a Shakespeare play written by a play writer who is really biased for Team Black unlike the maesters in Fire & Blood (GRR Martin) who are unbiased by working very hard to find multiple sources and POVs to write their texts.
It’s similar to the 47 Ronin. They are like heroes in a play or a movie when in truth, according to many Tokugawa Shogunate documents, the ronin were in the wrong as they killed an innocent man just because he accidentally pissed off the ronins’ daimyo who was a pretty lazy and hot-headed leader (similar to Daemon but less violent). The daimyo attacked the innocent official (who barely makes much money but remains dutiful) and was forced to commit seppuku. The ronin blamed the innocent man for their daimyo’s death rather than themselves for not being good advisors to their hot-headed daimyo.
I honestly bursted out in Laughter at the Assassination Scene, heck I plan a Sleepover more dilligently than that :D
The whole thing was more fitting for an Adam Sandler Movie
F&B is an outline history book that is deliberately very interpretative as George wanted to empahsize how history is shaped by biases of society. There's not a single character in the Dance that is fully fleshed out. You have to heavily rely on interpretation. So what these stans have done is make elaborate headcanons out of a couple lines for characters they like, while simultaneously rejecting any interpretation for characters they don't like. They straight up ignore all the themes of the show in bad-faith if it goes against their perception of what a character or a scene should be. 90% of the book purist criticisms come down to "my sports team was not portrayed as flawless white hats without any conflict & the other team was not portrayed as black hat NPC villains with zero depth, characterization & screentime".
"It's Condal & Hess' fanfic bro". Yeah what they're mad about is that it's not THEIR fanfic.
To be honest I'm only watching House of the Dragon for the same reason I was watching game of Thrones seasons 5-8 (Because it's the only thing closer to Westeros). And I heard that they are giving the Dunk and Egg show to the same writers 😢
You are absolutely right if they would’ve been accurate to the book, the show would’ve been far more intriguing and better to watch you are right I would’ve preferred if they would’ve been accurate to the books it would’ve made for better TV
I don't know why this video was recommended to me, probably because I was perusing hotd phrases in search but I find this is entirely entertaining to me that only now are people complaining how the writing and pacing of the show is bad when it's been bad from the start. And I'm gonna go against the grain and say B&C was fine enough within the confines of what show is because a) it set itself up that way by unnecessary rush and squeezing thirty years into twenty in one season and b) I see a lot of criticism for Helaena's reaction when it's by far the most consistent thing about this mess since she's a dreamer and therefore already detached and weird so rather than screaming and all, she heavily dissociates.
There's still time for her to lose it completely since the show runners said Maelor does not exist...yet. But yes, it is not as impactful of an event because that would have required a writing effort from the very start for people to care about the characters as it was for Red Wedding. They didn't so here we are. Also, as a side note...TV Aegon now has a rogue brother and a toddler daughter as candidates for an heir so my best guess, they did it on purpose bla bla bla parallels and all that.
Fuck the books
They don’t need to follow everything the book says
But why change something to make it less impactful or worse
Blood and cheese suppose to make daemon more evil and ruthless in the show it made him look stupid
Alicent and criston cole for me is greater disappointment
It’s like in season 1 they trying so hard to make us hate alicent and they said oh shit that didn’t work make her go fuck criston cole
Honestly, I think an anime adaptation of ASOIAF (and F&B) would be the best way to get all the information from the books into a series. I think we need to accept at this stage that not everything will be able to get adapted from the books because of monetary constraints etc. We're basically getting an extended movie
Almost every major action in the show is an accident/misunderstanding instead of characters being politically cunning and Machiavellian
Honestly as a mother I would not have been able to emotionally handle it if they'd done it the same way as the book, it was a scene I was dreading when watching the show and had to remove myself from the room when i thought it would occur. That's just me, I'm soft and can't handle anything to do with child murder. It would give me nightmares. I want to watch the story, but there is a lot I can't mentally take. Even you describing what happened has made me feel ill.
Can we acknowledge that the guy they got to play Blood doesn’t look scary at all. He looks like a teddy bear wtf.
It was intentionally written this way to save Daemon's character and continue the theme of the "evil, evil" green devils getting what they deserve. As for Cregan, I think they're done with the long night and any mention of it is simply perfunctory. Sara Snow's story is conjecture in the books. It's a dead end so I'm not disappointed about it. Also the bonding between Cregan and Jacerys doesn't pay off in this story. The pact of ice and fire informed events of the botched game of thrones show, so they probably saw it as irrelevant. The real tragedy here is Helena. I get that she has mental problems, but they made it seem like she was completely unaffected. They're intent on portraying her as a lobotomized madwoman with no human feeling. Which destroyed any emotions I felt about the entire event.
They seem to be leaning on the unreliable narrator's excuse too heavily, in favor of the Blacks and Rhaeneyra. Too bad,as this is one of those fascinating parts of the world where there's truly no good guys or bad guys in the end. There's no true winners. This should have been the pivotal point where the rules of decency get thrown out, and it essentially becomes a street fight like in all civil wars. One in which it's no longer clear who the "good" guys are anymore. I think the show runners don't trust their audiences to like such a show, so they're going for one where there's clear heroes and clear villains.The two actresses were robbed of Amy awards worthy moments here. I believe they would have pulled it off beautifully. This would set the season ablaze and would have been the talking point of the whole show. This would have been Fire and Blood's Red Wedding.What a missed opportunity.
I have a question, the way that he just broke this down is the show overall a flap?
Facts could have been a Red Wedding level moment that broke the internet
I don’t disagree and you’re 100% right
I HATE THIS SHOW
They ruined it 💔
i give it an 8.1 yours being a Nit -picker
I can’t believe no one understands this.
So to start, GRRM himself said that Fire and Blood is an unreliable narration of events told by archmaester Gyldayn, HOTD is the true version of events.
Secondly, the goal of that scene is not for you to remember B&C. It’s to remember the trauma Helaena just experienced.
If we had the version from Fire and Blood, we’d be thinking about how crazy, insane and vile Blood and Cheese were without a thought for Helaena.
Thats not the goal of the scene.
Do a video about that buddy.
The book version showed the true trauma of Helena and alicent .
Helena being given a choice between her sons , and then when she chooses to let the younger one die , as he will not know whats happening.
but to make it worse b&c kills the older one and tells the younger one that his mommy chose him to be killed.
As a result the boy hated Helena for his whole life , and helena's trauma is just on another level here , first losing her older son , than being hated by her younger son , the scene also had alicent , so that explains her motivation for war , seeing her grandchildren butchered in from of her eyes ,
It was a tense scene with amazing dialogues and character exploration.
In the show neither the characters nor the audience felt anything
And having unreliable narration isn't the point here , the point is that they had a vastly superior written and crafted scene that affected the characters so much , and instead they dumped it down to such a level , the scene was laughable , Helena showing no efforts to save her child , b&c letting her runaway , the whole castle seems empty , than cut to alicent riding cole😂 , there were so many plotholes , like why isn't there a single guard in the whole place when Helena was running, especially in the time of war ? , the book even gave explanation for it , but here they didn't gave anything to justify it , they undermined daemons character here , as he was the mastermind behind all of this , they wasted alicent character , and helenas character didn't even felt real
I was absolutely sure the showrunners are going to MILK THE HECK out of Sarah Snow bcuz yeah, you know, GoT/HotD love them some s3x scenes, but instead, they made an unnecessary ship/fanservice with Alicent...
This episode, especially the ending was underwhelming, but I liked some things. I’d give it a 7/10.
I liked some things too, but my expectations were a bit high. They had two years to hone every detail and make this season perfect. For there to be such major mistakes in the first episode… 🙆🏾♂️
@@thecriticalmaester9702damn you’re black? I love this channel even more 😂
I must say the blood and cheese incident was a big downgrade from the books and opinion. My only true complaint about the episode
This is why I like you, bruh!
All the other channels that cover HOTD or Game of Thrones keep overlooking such things, and it just frustrating.
I still find this episode good for the most part but their are issues i have with it mostly for the last 5 minutes.. Everything with the blacks was very predictable while everything with the greens was intriguing. I agree that the writers r making Jace seem bland n it seems they r flying through the starks storyline which to me is extremely frustrating.
Now when it comes to blood and cheese n what would fix the scene is that should have kept that helena had guards n they were killed n have aegon second son be there which we still dont know if he exists or not.......
Let me clarify with alicent and cole being a thing. It makes sense that they r attracted to each other and they have feelings for one another since they been in each other lives for like 15 years. To me it is not out of character for them wanting to be together n also their aint no oaths that r being broken. Criston already broke his honor with rt and alicent husband is already dead....... What is out of character is the timing of when they actually had sex because its not clarified how long they have been together.
The thing is though what i believe people r forgetting is two things.
1. That cole was not only angry with rt for getting him to break his oath it was also because she didnt care about the situation he put him in and she destroyed his viewpoint of her in the process. With alicent he sees someone who actually cares and respects him and she is the embodiment to what he believes is someone who is fit to rule and is worth fighting for.
2. The Cole from the past is not the same cole for the present. The past cole believed in honor and duty but the new cole believes that honor and duty should only be given to someone who deserves it. The new cole looks to alicent as his moral compass to what is right and wrong. He knows he lost his honor for breaking his oath and now his new oaf is to defend alicent and her bloodline at all cost. His white cloak is his illusion to what he is. He is not a knight of the kinsguard anymore he is a knight whose honor is tied to a women and the children that he has been protecting for the last 15 years.
U r completely right that the show is very biased towards the blacks ......
Glad I didn’t rush to buy a HBO subscription for June. I knew I needed to skip Blood and Cheese because that scene is pure evil and seeing it would probably make my guts turn. Bitterbridge would also be way to upsetting to see on screen- like B&C, made me really upset to read it. Depending on how the overall story telling in HOTD 2 goes, maybe I’ll pick it up to recap the whole season in August, or pick up HBO next year for Dubk and Egg.
Wow! I concur with EVERYTHING you said in this video, this is exactly what I think about this episode « underwhelming »😏😔I was expecting something different during the scene with Blood & Cheese ; the writers changed so many aspects of the story, I’m very disappointed about this….thanks for sharing your excellent point of view🙏🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻🙋🏼♀️🇨🇦
I would have written out the Alicent and Cole sex scenes and made the scene of Winterfell longer. The sex scenes felt so unnecessary and all I could think about was that they just had sex scenes because they thought, "Game of Thrones isn't Game of Thrones without Sex right). Then I would show the Pact of Ice and Fire with Jace and Cregan, even if it's a couple more minutes in the North because SPOILER FOR SOMEONE WHO HASN'T READ THE BOOK! Jace marries a bastard girl in the North, Sara Snow, to get the North on his mother's side.
Thanks for bringing up the white walker plotline I just want them to not talk about it at all. It reminds me of season eight. We already know they’re not a threat so they should just stick to the dance of the dragons. That’s what we’re here to see. I also don’t like how they bring up Aegon I prophecy as to promote team, black as good and noble, which they’re not both Team Green and Team Black are villains.
I disagree for the most part. Jacerys and Cregans relationship could be explored more throughout the season. Just because the didn’t focus on it in the first episode is a nitpick.
With blood and cheese understand the account you read was technically written by someone who wasn’t there. Who was green leaning himself. So to me, the account in fire and blood could be looked at as a dramatization of the actual events. But that’s just my opinion
Finally someone understands!!! Where is Maelor by the way? Is he just not in the show? Wouldn't be surprised if they completely erase daeron. Plus what's the deal with the Alicent & Cole sex relationship
I really don't think it's because of "writer bias" in that sense that they just prefer Rhaenyra/team-black. More likely it's because of a belief that audiences are more engaged with one side being more good (relatively, this is ASOIAF world after all) and one side being more treacherous.
Thanks for the video. How I felt as well, esp the Blood and Cheese scene. The first season was a prologue which shouldv'e set up for more action in season 2. Still early, but with only 8 episodes, hoping to see it pick up in episode 2 and beyond. Always exciting to see it come to life.
I will reuse a comment I made yesterday as I feel the same.
_This could have been the most shocking event in GOT history, eclipsing the red wedding if done correctly. There should have been the rending of two mothers' minds over what they had to witness and how she had to choose. It should have been horrifying in a way that leaves people speechless- more for the never ending psychological implications. An unforgivable act of unconscionable proportion. This, wasn't. You've failed if the only gasp was when the dog gets kicked. They should've trusted the audience.
It also removes another inevitable horror later that actually is also emblematic of innocence for war grist. Lame.
Also the ridiculous letdown of the progression of hypocrisy of Criston and Alicent. Just plopped on the ground. Just, meh._
What makes the Dance so compelling is there is no good guy vs. bad guy. That was never the truly point. It is the destruction of one family in perceptions and pursuit of power by outside factors applying pressure to one part of the group and the hubris in the decisions of the patriarch that was the catalyst of it all.
They stripped layers that i think needed to be there to understand the true horror of hypocritical moral turpitude.
Or... there's parental guidelines to follow.
But of course, I do prefer what was written in the books.
Probably first real blunder for HoTD.
First off, the episode should have started with Blood and Cheese walking through the throne room. The whole shock value was lost.
but in the show , when Daemon is talking to Blood and he asked him "and if we can't find Aemond?" , and then the scene ends abruptly but I guess it is implied he told them to kill whathever son they could find. Also, he killed his wife on the show and that was only implied in the books, so I guess the showrunners are not entirely whitewhising the blacks as much as the audicence is.
Yes but Rhaenyra is whitewashed. They didn’t show a lot of her very negative characteristics. She had virtues like intelligence and charm to make a good queen but she was also exhibiting the standard Targaryen entitlement and arrogance, quick to anger, slow to forgive, frivolous to a degree.
And then they despite humanizing the Greens also add more negative characteristics. I mean we are first introduced to Rhaenyra while she badass flying on her dragon while our first impression of Aegon grown is him raping a woman. That cements in the audience mind who to root for. Aegon was a drunk and sired bastards but he wasn’t a full on rapist
@@via-anghelmagahum2586you hit the nail on the head
The production team couldn't expose the child actors to a book accurate blood and cheese scene
They didn't need to show them actually being killed. They could've done many things to suggest their deaths (e.g. there's nothing wrong with Jaehaerys dying off screen and us panning on Helaena's reaction to it). The problem that we have is that the children are sleeping, Alicent isn;t even in the room because she's having sex, Helaena doesn't even offer her own life, Maelor isn't there, Helaena barely even emotes... WTF WAS THAT!!!??? 🤬🤬😭😭😭
@@thecriticalmaester9702 every production these days has a safety/intimacy coordinator keeping tabs on everything the actors are exposed to. A book accurate scene was never going to happen.
@@Guinnessdrnkr1234 I thought intimacy coordinators were for sex scenes? Even so, we don’t see Helaena begging desperately which really brings out the trauma that will occur for her and the absolute horror of this scene.
The son for a son was so impactful because she made to chose between her two boys. They were waiting for her too in Alicent’s room as the children were brought to play there.
@@via-anghelmagahum2586 they cover Safety and intimacy. making sure actors are not being mentally and/or physically scarred after filming a scene.
@@thecriticalmaester9702please tell me how you expected a 5 year old actor to cry on command? Or have a 6’4 man with a knife held to his neck mentally torturing him? Just be fr and say you wanted to watch kids get tortured. Blood and cheese is a catalyst. It did what it needed to do to progress the plot. We’re literally only one episode in so stop being so dramatic.
Heleana also doesn’t need to offer her own life because she literally heard what they were there for. She offered a valyrian steel necklace and they said “thats no son”. Even if she said “take me instead” they’d still kill her son lol. Plus cheese said that if she made even a little peep he’d kill her.
Something that has to be mentioned is that doing it like it was described in the books could be very scaring for a child actor. I mean those kids were very young and if they included Maelor, that kid would be even younger. So being this age and having a grown man who already looks and talks threatining enough, hold a sharp object at your throat and then hear the screams of the woman infront of you who literally beggs them not to kill you can be beyond traumatic. And then imagine they would have included the severed head. Many say that the Red Wedding was also brutal so why not make thos s ene brutal aswell. But all of the actors in The Red Wedding were grown up and could destinguish between scene and reality but a child that young...
I belive the mental health of child actors is more important than fan service
They could've replaced the kids with CGI. You can make a whole ass dragon with CGI, so why not children? The beheading could've been off screen but the psychological torture that Blood and Cheese make Alicent, Helaena, Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor go through is the point. No existence of Maelor, thus making Helaena choose between her son and daughter. No Alicent present, rather having sex with Criston. No strangled maid of Alicent or killed guard of Helaena. No rape threats to Jaehaera from Blood if Helaena didn't choose between her two sons. No Cheese taunting Maelor with "your mommy chose you to die" before killing Jaehaerys. No bonding scenes between Alicent and her grandchildren, or Helaena and her children, or Helaena and her sons. It's all ruined and team green and the book fans are right in their complaints.
@@MariaHossain First of all. Making people out of CGI has almost always failed in TV Shows. People would have complained about that aswell. They would have said that they don't realistic and that they couldn't take the scene seriously.
I am also a huge fan of the Book. And I am Teem Green (has the more interesting characters in my opinion). And I am not dissapointed.
The thing is: If you are a Fan of the book and you expect everything in the Show to happen just like in the book sooner or later you will be dissapointed.
In the book F&B there is often more than one version of the story. I just see the show as another one.
I am not saying that you can't voice your opinions. But to say the show is ruined now is just not true
Yes thank you... The episode wasn't bad butbit could have been so much more!! The dialogue was great though and the scene with Jace and Rhaenyra was absolutely perfect but other than that we could have had 2 episodes or even 3 for.this whole thing but yet it was so rushed and codensed. Pacing is still an issue with this show.
the sound mixing of the conversation at the start was just bland studio microphone with zero ambiance and zero distance.
The only reason I would excuse the whole Blood and cheese situation, is that many things in this show were just accidents that escalated the tension. Such as Aemond killing Luc wich was an accident.
I will also say that the whole situation with Fire and blood is that it was written with green biases.
And Daemon sending Blood and Cheese to kill Aemond makes a whole lot more sense than him spitefully sending them to kill an infant.
But this presents a bigger problem and that is agency. Because it’s all accidental and luck, the characters aren’t driving the conflict, but rather the show runners.
Great points, the amount of mistake chaos twists as a tool in the show besides the key plot seems to start to undermine clear attitudes and as a result starts to lack suspense as I expect horror attitudes not to work going forth and become more mistakes. Hoping for good surprises on the next episodes.
I think Larys might not want to become Hand. Actually, I thougt that he might point Cole to be the Hand to be able to create a distance between Cole and Allicent. If this was the case, it would steel allow Cole to become Hand in the future, like in the books...
The only thing I desagree with you is on Helaena´s reaction. I think her reaction was accordingly with everything we've seen so far frome her in the tv show. She looks terrified and completly desoriented. But she is very different frome Helaena from the books, so I undertand and accept this choise for her reaction. Great video once again!
This is the final nail to the coffin that the show universe and the book universe are not the same universe. GOT diverged from the books a lot, HOTD did the same thing.
Blood and Cheese was underwhelming but the overall episode was good
I disagree. Great episode.
Total let down of a perfectly good murder
gotta have lows to know how high the highs are.
honestly if you watched that episode and you think blacks are still good then you need to watch the last 20mins again lol. maybe the next episodes will make that clearer to you. the point showrunners want to make is that there are no good guys
The problem is that a large percentage of the audience is willing to excuse their war crimes just because they already got attached to them, see them as "badass" and "out for the crown that is rightfully theirs", so the show actually did a horrible job if their goal really was to portray both sides as morally gray and undeserving. At this point, even if Rhaenyra herself came and killed the baby, they would be willing to find excuses for her. People like you are rare, and that's why painting the Greens as generally bad (ex. Aegon raping the maid, Alicent having a relationship with Cole) only adds fuel to the fire instead of presenting both sides as equal
@@ingetamm7951 100% even though i'm team black i agree most black stans are the one's are i actually find annoying. they keep comparing aegon to joffrey which makes no sense. its like they always refuse to see the show from a nuanced perspective. i remember how pissed they were when aemond killing lucerys was made to seem like an accident lol
Critical indeed.
I found the sounds in the B&C scene horrific
Yes, the sounds were horrible... but the scene could've been done a lot better. The stuff that was in the source material was strong already, it didn't need to be changed.
Ok we have no connection to Helena’s children we have one reference to them when dyana gets assaulted by aegon. Season 2 we see Jaehaerys once at the council annoying Tyland we’re not even slightly invested in his character because he’s made 2 appearances. How are we supposed to feel anything for this situation when we barely know the child. We loved luke because he was in the actual show and we grow with him.. Jaehaerys is practically a stranger to the audience. I was more outraged seeing the 2 faced alicent getting the queens sloppy seconds while pretending she is some devout pious woman when she is in fact a whole $lut lol
you fell into the anti-green trap set by the show runners, but that's okay. And going from the circumstances that were presented to us, how is Alicent a whore for having a life after her husband dies lol? By all accounts, she's a free woman now, but she was loyal to her vows to him up until his last moments. That's not the same as Rhaenyra cheating on her husband for years and not even bothering to take moon tea
they couldn't do more in the show lets be honest
Exactly. People forget that game of thrones had MANY off-screen deaths that everyone just conveniently forgets about.
What about Stannis dying offscreen? What about shireen dying offscreen to where we can only hear screaming?
It’s so tiring, this fanbase is so overdramatic.
@@mattcollins3591 but that's exactly the point. They didn't have to show a child dying - what the book fans are angry about are the surrounding circumstances being changed, such as lack of Halaena's reaction, the whole tragedy of her choosing a son who then gets to live with the thought of "your mom wanted you dead" and etc