Thanks for watching, check out me other bits! B-Roll: th-cam.com/video/mG5gOzDjqHE/w-d-xo.html Outro song: th-cam.com/video/lP4j30jnljg/w-d-xo.html Instagram: instagram.com/plainly.john/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/Plainlydifficult Merch: plainly-difficult.creator-spring.com Twitter:twitter.com/Plainly_D
....how 'bout that time the us government wanted to blow up the moon to freak out the russians? ...boy, what a time That was! Maaaayybe you's could cover That one!
I can't help but feel that is foreshadowing for a future video. We have a long history of keeping temporary things to save money and then being surprised when it doesn't last forever.
Standard boger's affair, make a quick fix, call it temporary, and forget all about it, and then we wait for it to come back and bite someone in the backside for leaving it forgotten... :S
Driver True's sister was a neighbour of ours in South-East London and came round on the night of the disaster to use our telephone to find out whether her brother was involved. The sad outcome of this event was that, although her brother was acquitted by the enquiry he always felt responsible, never recovered mentally and spent the rest of his life in a psychiatric hospital.
It would have been better for the man to receive punishment. After at least 5 years in prison he could justify his actions as being punished and thus perhaps recover. I for one couldn’t imagine living after causing so much unintentional death and suffering.
My late father, a lifelong BR signalman was one of the first to arrive on the scene. He ran all the way down the tracks from North Kent East Junc signalbox that fateful night and he had not long started as a box boy or trainee signalman. It changed him badly and he suffered from mental health problems, he had a total breakdown when having worked relief the prior week to the Hither Green crash at the signalbox there that he just broke down completely even though it was not a signalling fault or remotely anything to do with him, it was too much. BR to be fair treated him well, they nursed him back into the job putting him in small boxes until he found his feet, a shame in his last couple of years with them they treated him atrociously at London Bridge, he was given the signalling managers job at Edinburgh Waverley but the unions kicked off despite my father actually coming from Edinburgh but the unions won and my father just lost heart with them all and he went downhill pretty fast. He found his feet again in retirement, finding a decent paid job at Swanage's heritage railway so it did kinda end well for him. He left BR with the most "passings out" record of any signalman, BR promised him as well the home starter signal of Cuxton box which he practically rebuilt as much as he rebuilt Snodland and Aylesford boxes all listed today, BR never did as this was the new railways, doing stuff like honouring a bloke who went 20 odd years without a day sick and worked every ounce of overtime he could find and wrote a fair bit of the rule book in modernising signalling practice, yeah they were pretty awful the way the dishonoured the bloke :(
The railwayman and writer Stan Hall was very complimentary about the actions of a "Young Signalman" during this accident. Do you suppose this could have been your father?
As a passed fireman I'm afraid to say that some drivers only thought a fireman was there to shovel coal. With the worst you could work together for 7 or 8 hours in a hot cramped cab without a word being said. If you were lucky you might get a grunt or two. Go to put the injectors on when he thought otherwise your hand got a hard thump, after 2 or 3 times of that you thought......but this type of driver would push you back so that he could see the signals.
There were stories of drivers putting a chalk line on the footplate of the cab, with instructions that the fireman must not cross it. I'm sure that's not typical, but it shows how tyrannical some could be.
@@borderlands6606 That is what those of us who watch air crash report videos would call terrible CRM or Crew Resource Management. Of course when this event took place, bad CRM was common in aviation too. And shocker to nobody it caused incidents and losses in that transport industry as well.
My father was a fireman on the Southern Railways footplate during the 40s and 50s. He said if you had a bad driver he would "waste" steam, sometimes deliberately to keep you stoking and make work. At the end of a shift your muscles would let you know the difference between a good and bad driver.
Such was the hierarchy in the days of steam that a fireman would dare not comment on the way the driver was handling the engine. In the Bourne End derailment of 1945, it is almost certain that the driver dozed off at the regulator, and his fireman would not have dared to wake him, or if he did it was too late. Both were killed instantly.
I was travelling on the 5:00pm from cannon st to Margate on that night. A friend of mine was seated in the front two cars but went to the buffet car so missing out on being one of the casualties. Thanks for reporting this.
It's unbelievable that the fireman wasn't supposed to look out for signals UNLESS the driver ordered him to do so. In continetal Europe it's standard for both driver and fireman (assistant on electrics and diesels, most our trains still have two-man engine crews) to look out for signals ahead and call their aspect aloud ALL THE TIME
Moreover, I don't accept the assumption that the driver on the left can't see signals on the right. Think of a camera: if the window is an aperture (it is), then light passing through it on one side exist on the opposite side. It is actually easier to see through the window ACROSS to the other side of where you are sitting (though you may not be looking that way most of the time).
Plus, go on the footplate of an unrebuilt WC/MN/BB class loco and try to see clearly ahead through the tiny dirty windows down the streamlined casing. Even on a clear day it's pretty difficult.
My farther should have been on this train. Due to thick fog in Wolverhampton the trolley buses were also running late. He missed it unknown by my mother. They had got married that same day my mom thought she’d been married and widowed in the same day. It was the last day of my dads ten day leave and was returning to camp RAF Benson. Today is Father’s Day my Dads 88. He’s very ill and wonder if he’ll still be here this time tomorrow. He’s been a inspiration great tutor and best dad you could imagine. A true inspiration to all over his life.
@@foo219 John and David Lynch: making sure I know the weather in both southern London and LA. And now I want a weather based podcast with these two on it.
My grandfather was a passenger in the rear carriage of the Ramsgate train. Physically unharmed but mentally scarred. We only found out at his funeral a few years ago when it was mentioned in his eulogy - he’d never mentioned it to his children or grandchildren.
I've been a sub since 2019, and I'm glad you moved on from atomic disasters. Because my first comment after finding your channel and binge watching that I was sure I was on every possible US watch list.
John, I wish you could meet my husband. He would happily spend his days watching trains and filming B roll with you. He'd love to hear stories about these disasters and the changes they've inspired while you both worked. Then he'd want you to discuss making music. He'd even buy you meals for it. Wonderful video, as always!
My family was heavily involved in this disaster. (it certaintly wasn't just a bad day at the office as you comment). It was a very freezing cold winter's night night with smog, not just fog. My grandfather worked for Lewisham council and opened up Ladywell baths as a temporary morturary. My great aunt Gladys was in Tresilien Road at the time and a volunteer for the WRVS who helped with casualties. My Uncle Len had a barber's shop nearby and gave up all his towels. My Aunt just missed the Hayes train because she was having an affair with another man in Villiers Street by Charing Cross station. The Dartford train above only just stopped short because the driver, Donald Corke managed to apply the mechanical breaks with a bridge girder bent in front of him. He later became my uncle's neighbour and I spoke to him about the crash. And... my mother was in hospital...giving birth...to me! 10 years later, and there was another crash not far away at Hither Green. I was at Grove Park at the time and watched it unfold with my parents.
Wow! Thank you for the additional information. It adds a lot to the story, details like this. I always want to know how people respond to these disasters. Quite a family legacy, especially with your birth happening just then.
Thanks for the info! Btw it's sickening that the person on the signal-side (right side) of the train said "my driver didn't tell me to look at the signals. He also didn't step into my side to look." thus escaping responsibility for it in his mind. He was absolutely a big-time part of the reason this crash happened.
This was probably the most fascinating story I've ever seen regarding a "I(or my family) was there"-type comment. The most interesting by far, too. P.S. try not to be mad about the "bad day at the office" comment, it's just sarcasm and satire.. two ways MANY people naturally use to cope with tragedies Edit: I don't get how this is a 6, though. 89 people died "instantly" (not instantly for many), and this has to easily be at least an 8.
My Grandfather should have been on the train from Charing Cross that was involved, but for unknown reasons was on the next train which of course was delayed by the incident. My Mother said that they were very concerned once the news broke, as it was the train he normally would have been on. As this was the days of no mobile phones he was not able to contact anyone to say which train he was on and that he was ok.
I remember my Dad telling me about this, living barely a mile away at the time, the Hither Green train disaster was even closer, right outside my front door! Single yellow is proceed with caution as the next signal is most likely at Red.
Please do the Granville Rail Disaster 1977 in Sydney, Australia. I was a kid home from school that day and remember it vividly. I think almost 100 people died from it and it caused major changes in railways in New South Wales.
Ty John, very sad story of simple mistakes leading to disastrous results. I think sometimes the world is held together with sticky tape and string and one snap leads to doom.
I really enjoy your videos, especially those concerning British Trains (I hesitated to say "Railways" to avoid confusion with the Nationalised industry of BR) You seem to put a lot of effort into gathering the facts. well Done John .
I sometimes wonder if the colored-light signals may have contributed to this and similar crashes. The Pennsylvania Railroad in the USA used positional signals of three white lights (vertical = proceed, diagonal = caution, horizontal = stop). The reason I heard from my railroading family was that the crew could lose the ability to distinguish colors while staring out into the dark. BTW, my grandfather was a PRR track supervisor during WWII, and had to clear up after a terrible derailment in Philadelphia on Labor Day 1943. 80 people killed. Might be a good subject for a video.
I thought one of the problems was that railway lights aren't *consistently* in different places? Ie, sometimes there's all 4 lights, sometimes just 3 or 2 or even 1? Plus in reduced visibility like fog you don't see the backing plate, so you don't know which of the single lights is on. And they're not in consistent places off the track, either, they could be left right or over top mounted sideways...
@@neuralmute haha nice. My mother worked in the oil industry as an industrial chemist for decades and said they always got reports on other sites accidents and lessons from losses reports and they were all read by everyone in the lab as soon as they came in
On the original Battle of Britain class locos, driver visibility was always an issue. Small windows, and being slab sided the exhaust used to be drawn down onto the windows.
The Southern Railway Light Pacifics, of which 34066 was one, were built to two widths. I think that the first 70 were wider and 34071 onwards were the narrower ones. The narrower ones were designed to work over the Tonbridge to Hastings line, though there are no known instances of their doing so. Rebuilding of the Light Pacifics began earlier in 1957, and continued until 1961, when 60 had been done. The others remained in their original condition, with steam being rapidly replaced. Surprisingly, 34066 was returned to service in original form, and remained so until withdrawn in 1966. Referring to the collision again, I know someone who knew Driver Trew personally, and I gather that he was a broken man for the rest of his life. He was, in fact, due to retire not long after the accident.
🤔🤨 Honestly, I'm actually surprised that 'Moments from Disaster' or 'Autopsy of Disaster' (similar shows) havent picked you up yet for your writing & research abilities. You can make the most mundane events seem absolutely fascinating. Thank you Friend, for another absolutely TopQual production 👌🏻🤩💕💕
it’s probably more profitable to run his own channel at this point. Plus if he went to work for someone else’s content he’d probably lose creative control. And his videos are quite stylish, he has a very recognizable unique visual and sound style, I even wish he’d bump the music up a bit! It would be a shame to give all this up.
@@ariariaris oh yeah, totally agree. I just meant I'm surprised there hadn't been an 'offer' yet. YT long run would pay much better, the monetisation is tenuous though. Network job only + would be the job security. But over the years I can remember John himself saying "sorry the upload is running late, but I had [activity] with my son" and there's no working at your own pleasure/pace, sadly.
Thank you for uploading this video, I have lived near Lewisham all my life and often go right past st Johns, yet I have NEVER heard about this train crash before today. So thank you for enlightening me :)
Have you ever considered making a video on the 1962 train crash in Harmelen? It's the worst crash in dutch history and lead to the introduction of automatic train protections, as in this crash yellow signals were also missed, likely due to the fog but we'll never really know as no driver survived
The US is probably worse. Here we call it PTC or positive train control. It becomes news topic once theres an accident from speeding or collisions between trains.
A dreadful disaster ,thankfully the third train managed to stop in time , and since the accident the site is known to be haunted by the cries of the injured still being heard and numerous reports of the Police being called to investigate the spectral sounds coming from the vicinity of the crash.
Hey Plainly Difficult, I really like your videos, and I was wondering if you make a video about the Cajon Pass runaways? They're a string of wrecks in southern California and they're super interesting.
There is a ghost story associated with the disaster. A railway bridge inspector who had been working on St John's flyover, was waiting for a bus at 2am near the clock tower. He heard someone calling for help, as they appeared to be trapped. He telephoned the police, and a patrol car arrived. The patrolman heard the voice, but was unperturbed. He said no one is trapped there, and people often hear voices. They have done so since the 1957 crash.
I suspect a contributing factor was that the Ramsgate crew were kept waiting for over an hour at the end of the platform in freezing conditions. Research today has shown that prolongued exposure to cold like this reduces mental awareness, so it is quite possible that Trew lost his situational awareness in the fog. It is always too easy to "blame the driver / signalman" in this situation, without looking at the broader situational background.
They are a nod to an old British TV thing marking ad breaks. Presumably they are where midroll ads are meant to play. I have premium so I can't be sure where they are at, but it would keep it from interrupting the flow.
3 of my relatives should have been on the train bound for Hither Green but my Grandmother missed it, even though it was late, my Aunt, Heavily pregnant with my cousin, got off the crowded train at St Johns, sat down for a moment and heard the crash, my Uncle got off work early, because of the fog, and just managed to catch the preceding train. They were all very lucky!
It's almost as though this part of the South Eastern Mainline is cursed somehow. Just a short distance away from this crash, just under 10 years after this crash, another severe accident occurred, this time at Hither Green. On the evening of the 5th November 1967, a 12 Carriage Class 201 DEMU (6S) unit 1007 and Class 202 (6L) 1017 derailed at roughly 70 MPH near Hither Green Maintenance Depot. The train was packed at the time of the accident, with many passengers standing. The momentum of the crash blocked both the Fast and Slow lines with Traction Current being switched off to aid the rescue effort. In the end, 49 people died and 78 people were injured. The cause of the crash was a rail that had failed due to metal fatigue in one of the bolts at the point where two rails were bolted together (unlike today where they're welded)
@@SiVlog1989 been a sharp decline in safety since privatisation which would never have been tolerated underBR. Things are improving but loss of experience takes decades to recover from. Subcontractors are lethal in the railway environment
@@highdownmartin I agree, it just goes to show that rail privatisation, however much apologists try to defend it, was a mistake. Although Network Rail isn't perfect, they take maintenance of the railway more seriously than Railtrack or any private company ever did
When describing signals controlled from a Westinghouse pattern lever frame, the more typical way is to say "Left" and "Right" in place of L and R as it theoretically describes the lever motion from the point of view of the signaler.
This was the first transport accident I can remember hearing and reading about. I'll never forget seeing the evening papers the following day, with sketch diagrams of the crashed trains, the collapsed bridge and the electric train which stopped just short of the gap. (And yet it's an odd fact that the Munich air crash the following February, despite all the even more extensive coverage which that got, made almost no impression on me till a long time afterwards.)
Great Western (and then Western Region) engines not only drove on the right hand side of the cab, but for many years had used all over its system a mechanical ramp and shoe with battery operated cab warning bell plus the ability to stop a train automatically (unless cancelled by the crew). Inspecting officers had for years recommended this system or something like the one on the LTS Tilbury Line to Southend.
After just about every railway accident where a driver overran signals, the Inspecting Officer urged the railway companies to follow the Great Western and equip at least the main lines with Automatic Train Control (ATC). They were reluctant to do this, not because of the cost, but because they were afraid that drivers might become too complacent, by listening to the bell, rather than observing the signal. Finally, after the Harrow crash of 1952, BR went ahead to install ATC on main lines. It is now called Automatic Warning System (AWS). Harrow and Lewisham would then never have happened, nor would the early postwar derailments at Bourne End and Goswick, not to mention countless driver errors before that. Unfortunately, ATC would not have prevented the Quintinshill disaster, as that was signalmen's error.
@@andrewtaylor5984 It should also have stopped the Norton Fitzwarren disaster of November 1940 - but another distracted driver in conditions of poor visibility (wartime blackout) missed some crucial signals and then failed for whatever reason to act on the ATC warning. A three-figure death-toll was avoided almost literally by a hair's-breadth, but 27 still died. Maybe Mr Difficult could take a look at that one?
@@johnjephcote7636 At Norton Fitzwarren, the driver cancelled an ATC warning in error. The last saving grace would have occurred when he passed through Norton Fitzwarren Station; it consisted of two island platforms, and on the main line the platform would have been to the left. On the relief line the platform would have been on the right. Owing to the blackourt, the station was unlit. Before putting too much blame on Driver Stacey, we must remember that his house at Acton had suffered bomb damage a few days beforehand, and the Old Oak Foreman would have been quite happy to give the train to another driver.
Hell yeah St Johns baby! That's my beloved local station. Actually not so beloved, it could so easily be improved in terms of access... But you know, local pride and all. Also great for Deptford if you're on a the wrong train line, and Brookmill Park and other local parks are delightful.
You have re-invented your channel and it is awesome! But I miss the update on your current weather though. Edit: Aah you included it, wonder how I missed it. As it stands, everything is perfect!
You should do the 2012 once station disaster in buenos aires argentina, a passenger train failed to stop at a terminal station and crashed, 51 deaths and 703 injured
I was hoping you would do a video about this accident. I used to commute through St John’s on my way into Central London from Staplehurst where I live. Useless fact for you, peak time trains heading to Charing Cross use the fast lines where the Cannon Street services use the slow lines ie go past the platforms. Also have you considered doing a Video on the crash between Headcorn and Staplehurst which involved Charles Dickens. Cheers
Very interesting, and a clear and informative video. Do you think you could take a look at the Hither Green Accident, which took place 10 years later than Lewisham, and a mile and a half further south. Great videos, with excellent, very professional production standards. Really very impressed. Man Thanks, Zac.
In the late 1970s I rode a Chicago (USA) commuter line daily into and out of the downtown terminal when I worked at Children's Memorial Hospital. Year's before, the railroad had installed signal repeaters in the cab of each locomotive. I suspect this is the type of system being installed on British Rail at the time of the accident. My question is, why we're the line signals located on the Fireman's side of the locomotive?
do you mean that thing that made a bunch of beeping? I remember that on Metro North in NY area if you sat near the cab something made a bunch of beeping when you passed certain areas of track.
British locomotives vary, some have the driver's position on the left, and others on the right. Usually, the signals are on the left of the line, so in this respect it's better if the driver sits on the left (as on, for instance, 60103 Flying Scotsman). But historic tradition meant that some locos were built with the driver on the right. For many locos, you can tell which is the driver's side by looking for the long lever that connects the reverser in the cab to the valve gear: this is on the driver's side of the locomotive. (Obviously this doesn't work on locos with steam-operated reversing gear, but these weren't very common on Britain's railways.) Southern Region was later than other regions in introducing AWS, which would have made this crash much less likely. AWS sounds a horn when passing a signal showing a caution or stop aspect (red, yellow or double yellow), and the driver has to press a button to cancel the horn, when a visual indicator in the cab then changes to black and yellow stripes. But there is an issue with this system when one train is travelling fairly closely behind another, so it gets a series of double yellow signals (this is quite common in suburban areas with a frequent train service). Repeated cancelling of the horn can become automatic, so it's possible that the driver doesn't notice when the train passes a single yellow after a succession of double yellows, and thus doesn't slow down in time to stop.
I remember my late Father telling me who was within the Civil Engineering side of the Railway the challenge of cutting the collapsed bridge up and how the rails being cut were like tensioned piano wires.
This is really interesting, my Girlfriend used to close to lewisham and she worked at Covent Garden. So I do believe I've been through St. Johns at least a few times.
@Plainly Difficult Would you be willing to do a video on the Wallan XPT derailment? It was quite a mess. It's in Victoria, in AU. The XPT set derailed, due to believing the points were set for the main line. But they were actually set for the crossing loop.
So I just finished the video and I am left wondering why didn’t the driver ask the fireman to keep an eye on the signals all along, especially given his location in the cab?
Propably a mix of habbit and tiredness. The driver propably expexted the fireman to be watching. Or he though he himself would see. Or, most likely, he was used to the signals in that area always being green.
Actually it was neither of those reasons. The driver had asked the fireman to read the signals for the previous part of the journey, which he did. However, the signals that were missed were located on the right-hand side of a left-hand curve and so were normally visible to the driver, even in poor visibility. The fireman stopped looking out at that point because the signals were normally visible and because he needed to build up his fire for the gradients on the journey.
Just a 110k to go. Seems like just yesterday on another account when I wrote a similar comment on getting to 10k. One of few who listened to us and stayed the same. 👍
St Johns. I call it the ghost station as very few trains actually stop there. I have spent more time stopped at a signal there than being stopped for passengers!! Have travelled this route a zillion times (it feels like it anyway) and like you until recently I had no idea there had been a major accident locally. As for the "temporary" bridge that is still there? The title explains a lot then as the trains always crawl through there. Cannot imagine them closing the line to put in a permanent one as the bottleneck there and lack of space around would make it almost impossible to do so without closing the line for a few weeks I would have thought, and as it is on the main artery into and out of London into Kent the ensuing travel chaos does not bear thinking about as the roads around there are overloaded as it is.
I couldn’t help but think of the Great Smog of December 1952. If the Clean Air Act in the UK didn’t get passed until 1957, this incident would have happened in basically the same “normal” conditions (not the 5-day event that sickened and killed thousands) as 1952. And I would think that fog/smog would not only make seeing the signals difficult, it would make the colors hard to distinguish. I know that you said the signals are positional as well as colored, but if you can’t see the back plate clearly, how do you know the position? I realize that as someone from the US, historically we’re not ones to talk since our own Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) wasn’t established until 1970, but I was a young child when that happened and was part of the generation taught to think about energy conservation and not polluting in school. The fact that the engineer didn’t have his fireman watching the signals out the right hand side, where his perspective and sight line was reduced, is infuriating.and 90 people paid with their lives. Like I said, I remember what smog really looked like and how it distorted things like color perception.
Lovely vidoeo! But I will ask for more industrial accidents, they are so important as there are still alot of cheapscape companies that do it all for the profit. MORE INDUSTRY RELATED CONTENT PLEASE MR JOHN!
From the Ministry of Transport report: 30. It will be noted from the inset to Fig. 5 that there is plenty of room for the simple signal posts in the wide space between the Down and Up Through line, but none between the Down Through and the Up Local lines, and to have brought the signal aspects to the left of the Down Through would have required fairly elaborate cantilevered gantries. I understand that at the time of installation, when most of the engines were driven from the right hand side, the signals were sited as nearly as possible to the driver's or fireman's eye level in order to give the best view in the prevailing conditions where curvature and overbridges had to be taken into consideration. 96. Although the Down Through signals between New Cross and St. Johns are on the right hand side of the line, they are well sited, taking into consideration the difficult conditions of curvature, cuttings and overbridges, and it is doubtful whether much improvement would result from moving them to the left hand side of the line. The view from short range would be improved, but from long range it might be reduced.
U should do the australian train crash. "Day of the Roses" movie. Bridge collapses onto a train. They used saws to try and get through the roof of the trains which were made from tar.....u can imagine how well that went. Granville train crash.
So the fireman saw Lima 18 was at danger, but he didn't see the prior signals, correct? Otherwise I'd assume he'd be telling the engineer/engine driver what he saw. That must have been a very bad feeling when the fireman saw Lima 18, knowing his train would never stop in time.
I do not know what the lights in those signals are like today but i can say modern signals pierce fog like butter. You may not be able to see anything out the cab but you can always see the signals. I am sort of a specialist in driving on dark, foggy, and wet track with the wheel slip alarm screaming.
But London smog was another level from the thickest fog you have ever known. It was full of black smoke particles, not just water droplets, so attenuated light very much more severely. The fireman saw the last signal so the others would have been visible from his side of the cab. But the smog would have also made the driver's window dirty, making it even harder to see the signal on the opposite side of the track from the long distance before the smokebox of the loco obscured the view. Easy with hindsight to say that he should have recognised the limitations of visibility and instructed the fireman to look out, but Trew made a mistake on a system that did not forgive mistakes. Which of us has never made a mistake? That's why we need more than one level of safety integrity on life-critical operations.
@@mikebradley4096 In the same vein, not re. this train crash but the fogs of the 1950's. For those that know Glasgow, my father left Rutherglen in the south east of the city one very foggy night at 8pm to travel to his work on the night shift at Hillington on the western suburbs of the city. After various adventures with trains, trams and the Glasgow Subway came back home at 1a.m having walked back home from Cambuslang on the Lanarkshire side! Many people including Londoners I'm sure could tell you tales of how bad the fog was then, cos it wasn't fog, it was smog- a very different beast.
Something that has not been mentioned is that several passengers including the guard and BR staff claimed that they did not feel that the brakes were applied after the danger signal was sighted and up to the collision. As an example, a vacuum braked train in good condition should stop from 30mph in circa 130yds, admittedly there will be a few seconds delay as the vacuum is released from the train pipe. This suggests that either the train was going faster than claimed, the brakes were not fully applied or that there was a problem with the brakes. A SPAD would require an immediate full brake application. Having driven a 4 loaded coach train hauled by a class 4T at Swanage I can confirm that from 30mph the brakes were surprisingly responsive and powerful.
So why was the double yellow the lesser caution? Wouldn’t you want the more immediately distinct one to be the bigger warning? Not that it matters in this instance since he apparently saw neither of them… but I can see mistaking single yellow for single green in a fog.
You'd be surprised how many people ask that. There are at least 2 very good reasons why double yellow is the lesser caution. 1. Some signals do not have 4 aspects, they have only 3: red, yellow and green. The 4-aspect sequence being red, yellow, double yellow, green means that yellow always means the next signal is red. 2. If one of your yellow lamps should fail the signal fails safe as it shows yellow instead of double yellow. Since one yellow is more restrictive that's safer. If 1 yellow meant the next signal is double yellow and 2 yellows meant the next signal is red, you can see that if one of the yellow lamps failed that would turn a signal which should mean the next signal is red into one which means the next signal is double yellow, which would be bad.
In my dissenting opinion this is classic PD. Bridge collapses and dodgy mall construction have heritage with PD specifically because there are only so many goofy nuclear technicians alive in the world
@@hauntedshadowslegacy2826 Has he ever covered any of the broken-arrow incidents? Lord knows there were enough of them - the big one in Spain that contaminated a huge area comes to mind.
It's interesting to see the number of times that the driver or other crew members are being blamed and put on trial. Yet the companies and organisations, whose poor planning led to such a bad design, get off scot free with little or no scrutiny.
Terrible accident - I always wonder how many such disasters were narrowly avoided. Read the memoirs of a railway signalman containing a sobering postscript. As a teenage lad he was often allowed into the signal box at Orpington. One evening he observed a crammed commuter train arrive at the bay platform and disgorge its multitude of passengers. Without any authority he reset the points for the main line just as the signalman from Petts Wood was frantically phoning to say a double-headed express had raced past his signals at danger - within seconds it thundered through the station without incident.
Thanks for watching, check out me other bits!
B-Roll: th-cam.com/video/mG5gOzDjqHE/w-d-xo.html
Outro song: th-cam.com/video/lP4j30jnljg/w-d-xo.html
Instagram: instagram.com/plainly.john/
Patreon: www.patreon.com/Plainlydifficult
Merch: plainly-difficult.creator-spring.com
Twitter:twitter.com/Plainly_D
Thank you John, I could listen to you all day. And I appreciate you bringing these disasters to light.
I don't know if this is the place for suggestions, but I want to offer up the I40 I240 propane truck disaster on December 23, 1988 in Memphis, TN.
....how 'bout that time the us government wanted to blow up the moon to freak out the russians? ...boy, what a time That was! Maaaayybe you's could cover That one!
Good work bud; Harrow & Wealdstone - not Willesden :)
7:50 It's interesting to note that the "temporary structure" which replaced the bridge is still in place to this day.
Indeed it is!
I can't help but feel that is foreshadowing for a future video. We have a long history of keeping temporary things to save money and then being surprised when it doesn't last forever.
Standard boger's affair, make a quick fix, call it temporary, and forget all about it, and then we wait for it to come back and bite someone in the backside for leaving it forgotten... :S
Nothing more permanent...
Yep. Nothing is more permanent than temporary._
Driver True's sister was a neighbour of ours in South-East London and came round on the night of the disaster to use our telephone to find out whether her brother was involved. The sad outcome of this event was that, although her brother was acquitted by the enquiry he always felt responsible, never recovered mentally and spent the rest of his life in a psychiatric hospital.
That's tragic, poor guy.
Yes, I was told about that and I believe he tried to end his life. My family all come from that area.
So sad. Hate he had to live with that for the rest of his days.
It would have been better for the man to receive punishment. After at least 5 years in prison he could justify his actions as being punished and thus perhaps recover. I for one couldn’t imagine living after causing so much unintentional death and suffering.
@@john-paulsilke893 He made an error, which did cause death. And the guilt alone would have been punishment enough, but imprisoning him?
My late father, a lifelong BR signalman was one of the first to arrive on the scene. He ran all the way down the tracks from North Kent East Junc signalbox that fateful night and he had not long started as a box boy or trainee signalman. It changed him badly and he suffered from mental health problems, he had a total breakdown when having worked relief the prior week to the Hither Green crash at the signalbox there that he just broke down completely even though it was not a signalling fault or remotely anything to do with him, it was too much. BR to be fair treated him well, they nursed him back into the job putting him in small boxes until he found his feet, a shame in his last couple of years with them they treated him atrociously at London Bridge, he was given the signalling managers job at Edinburgh Waverley but the unions kicked off despite my father actually coming from Edinburgh but the unions won and my father just lost heart with them all and he went downhill pretty fast.
He found his feet again in retirement, finding a decent paid job at Swanage's heritage railway so it did kinda end well for him. He left BR with the most "passings out" record of any signalman, BR promised him as well the home starter signal of Cuxton box which he practically rebuilt as much as he rebuilt Snodland and Aylesford boxes all listed today, BR never did as this was the new railways, doing stuff like honouring a bloke who went 20 odd years without a day sick and worked every ounce of overtime he could find and wrote a fair bit of the rule book in modernising signalling practice, yeah they were pretty awful the way the dishonoured the bloke :(
The railwayman and writer Stan Hall was very complimentary about the actions of a "Young Signalman" during this accident. Do you suppose this could have been your father?
Both my grandfathers were at this, my paternal in his role in the fire brigade and my maternal with the police. It was horrendous.
Yes, my family too. My grandfather at Lewisham council opened Ladywell baths as a temporary mortuary.
As a passed fireman I'm afraid to say that some drivers only thought a fireman was there to shovel coal. With the worst you could work together for 7 or 8 hours in a hot cramped cab without a word being said. If you were lucky you might get a grunt or two. Go to put the injectors on when he thought otherwise your hand got a hard thump, after 2 or 3 times of that you thought......but this type of driver would push you back so that he could see the signals.
There were stories of drivers putting a chalk line on the footplate of the cab, with instructions that the fireman must not cross it. I'm sure that's not typical, but it shows how tyrannical some could be.
@@borderlands6606 That is what those of us who watch air crash report videos would call terrible CRM or Crew Resource Management. Of course when this event took place, bad CRM was common in aviation too. And shocker to nobody it caused incidents and losses in that transport industry as well.
My father was a fireman on the Southern Railways footplate during the 40s and 50s. He said if you had a bad driver he would "waste" steam, sometimes deliberately to keep you stoking and make work. At the end of a shift your muscles would let you know the difference between a good and bad driver.
im sorry for your loss.
Such was the hierarchy in the days of steam that a fireman would dare not comment on the way the driver was handling the engine. In the Bourne End derailment of 1945, it is almost certain that the driver dozed off at the regulator, and his fireman would not have dared to wake him, or if he did it was too late. Both were killed instantly.
I was travelling on the 5:00pm from cannon st to Margate on that night.
A friend of mine was seated in the front two cars but went to the buffet car so missing out on being one of the casualties.
Thanks for reporting this.
It's unbelievable that the fireman wasn't supposed to look out for signals UNLESS the driver ordered him to do so. In continetal Europe it's standard for both driver and fireman (assistant on electrics and diesels, most our trains still have two-man engine crews) to look out for signals ahead and call their aspect aloud ALL THE TIME
Which European country are you in where two-man crews are still normal? 🤔
@@dkbmaestrorules Poland
Moreover, I don't accept the assumption that the driver on the left can't see signals on the right. Think of a camera: if the window is an aperture (it is), then light passing through it on one side exist on the opposite side. It is actually easier to see through the window ACROSS to the other side of where you are sitting (though you may not be looking that way most of the time).
Plus, go on the footplate of an unrebuilt WC/MN/BB class loco and try to see clearly ahead through the tiny dirty windows down the streamlined casing. Even on a clear day it's pretty difficult.
Lots of operating procedures from back in the day are unbelievable from the perspective of modern safety standards.
My farther should have been on this train. Due to thick fog in Wolverhampton the trolley buses were also running late. He missed it unknown by my mother. They had got married that same day my mom thought she’d been married and widowed in the same day. It was the last day of my dads ten day leave and was returning to camp RAF Benson. Today is Father’s Day my Dads 88. He’s very ill and wonder if he’ll still be here this time tomorrow. He’s been a inspiration great tutor and best dad you could imagine. A true inspiration to all over his life.
What a nice tribute to your Dad!
I've watched for, gosh, years it feels like and I will never tire of John's belated weather reports. Keep em coming John. ♥️
Same here!
@@foo219 John and David Lynch: making sure I know the weather in both southern London and LA. And now I want a weather based podcast with these two on it.
My grandfather was a passenger in the rear carriage of the Ramsgate train. Physically unharmed but mentally scarred. We only found out at his funeral a few years ago when it was mentioned in his eulogy - he’d never mentioned it to his children or grandchildren.
I've been a sub since 2019, and I'm glad you moved on from atomic disasters. Because my first comment after finding your channel and binge watching that I was sure I was on every possible US watch list.
John, I wish you could meet my husband. He would happily spend his days watching trains and filming B roll with you. He'd love to hear stories about these disasters and the changes they've inspired while you both worked. Then he'd want you to discuss making music. He'd even buy you meals for it.
Wonderful video, as always!
My family was heavily involved in this disaster. (it certaintly wasn't just a bad day at the office as you comment). It was a very freezing cold winter's night night with smog, not just fog.
My grandfather worked for Lewisham council and opened up Ladywell baths as a temporary morturary. My great aunt Gladys was in Tresilien Road at the time and a volunteer for the WRVS who helped with casualties. My Uncle Len had a barber's shop nearby and gave up all his towels. My Aunt just missed the Hayes train because she was having an affair with another man in Villiers Street by Charing Cross station. The Dartford train above only just stopped short because the driver, Donald Corke managed to apply the mechanical breaks with a bridge girder bent in front of him. He later became my uncle's neighbour and I spoke to him about the crash.
And... my mother was in hospital...giving birth...to me!
10 years later, and there was another crash not far away at Hither Green. I was at Grove Park at the time and watched it unfold with my parents.
Wow! Thank you for the additional information. It adds a lot to the story, details like this. I always want to know how people respond to these disasters. Quite a family legacy, especially with your birth happening just then.
Fascinating!
Thanks for the info!
Btw it's sickening that the person on the signal-side (right side) of the train said "my driver didn't tell me to look at the signals. He also didn't step into my side to look." thus escaping responsibility for it in his mind.
He was absolutely a big-time part of the reason this crash happened.
This was probably the most fascinating story I've ever seen regarding a "I(or my family) was there"-type comment. The most interesting by far, too.
P.S. try not to be mad about the "bad day at the office" comment, it's just sarcasm and satire.. two ways MANY people naturally use to cope with tragedies
Edit: I don't get how this is a 6, though. 89 people died "instantly" (not instantly for many), and this has to easily be at least an 8.
Thank you for your comment. Always good to see someone's personal POV of such an event
My Grandfather should have been on the train from Charing Cross that was involved, but for unknown reasons was on the next train which of course was delayed by the incident. My Mother said that they were very concerned once the news broke, as it was the train he normally would have been on. As this was the days of no mobile phones he was not able to contact anyone to say which train he was on and that he was ok.
I remember my Dad telling me about this, living barely a mile away at the time, the Hither Green train disaster was even closer, right outside my front door! Single yellow is proceed with caution as the next signal is most likely at Red.
Please do the Granville Rail Disaster 1977 in Sydney, Australia. I was a kid home from school that day and remember it vividly. I think almost 100 people died from it and it caused major changes in railways in New South Wales.
Thank you!
I came here to say the same thing. Another option could be the Waterfall accident.
Ty John, very sad story of simple mistakes leading to disastrous results. I think sometimes the world is held together with sticky tape and string and one snap leads to doom.
Sticky tape string rubber bands and paper clips
Duck tape and chewed bubblegum
This saved me from boredom! Ironically saved by a disaster video.
😂😂😂😂😂meee tttoooo
Great to listen to while you’re adding lore to your campaign
😂same bro
It’s nice to hear about disasters early on a Saturday morning. Thank you, PlainlyDifficult!
I really enjoy your videos, especially those concerning British Trains (I hesitated to say "Railways" to avoid confusion with the Nationalised industry of BR) You seem to put a lot of effort into gathering the facts. well Done John .
I sometimes wonder if the colored-light signals may have contributed to this and similar crashes. The Pennsylvania Railroad in the USA used positional signals of three white lights (vertical = proceed, diagonal = caution, horizontal = stop). The reason I heard from my railroading family was that the crew could lose the ability to distinguish colors while staring out into the dark.
BTW, my grandfather was a PRR track supervisor during WWII, and had to clear up after a terrible derailment in Philadelphia on Labor Day 1943. 80 people killed. Might be a good subject for a video.
Even if the colour can't be seen, they're also in different spots just like road lights are
I thought one of the problems was that railway lights aren't *consistently* in different places? Ie, sometimes there's all 4 lights, sometimes just 3 or 2 or even 1? Plus in reduced visibility like fog you don't see the backing plate, so you don't know which of the single lights is on. And they're not in consistent places off the track, either, they could be left right or over top mounted sideways...
my mother loves your channel, esp anything petrochemical related. you have brought such joy to our lives
I got my mum hooked on PD too! She's partial to the nuclear accidents, but really, whose mum isn't? (Other than yours of course!)
@@neuralmute haha nice. My mother worked in the oil industry as an industrial chemist for decades and said they always got reports on other sites accidents and lessons from losses reports and they were all read by everyone in the lab as soon as they came in
On the original Battle of Britain class locos, driver visibility was always an issue. Small windows, and being slab sided the exhaust used to be drawn down onto the windows.
The Southern Railway Light Pacifics, of which 34066 was one, were built to two widths. I think that the first 70 were wider and 34071 onwards were the narrower ones. The narrower ones were designed to work over the Tonbridge to Hastings line, though there are no known instances of their doing so. Rebuilding of the Light Pacifics began earlier in 1957, and continued until 1961, when 60 had been done. The others remained in their original condition, with steam being rapidly replaced. Surprisingly, 34066 was returned to service in original form, and remained so until withdrawn in 1966. Referring to the collision again, I know someone who knew Driver Trew personally, and I gather that he was a broken man for the rest of his life. He was, in fact, due to retire not long after the accident.
🤔🤨 Honestly, I'm actually surprised that 'Moments from Disaster' or 'Autopsy of Disaster' (similar shows) havent picked you up yet for your writing & research abilities. You can make the most mundane events seem absolutely fascinating. Thank you Friend, for another absolutely TopQual production 👌🏻🤩💕💕
i would much rather John stayed here to share his talents with us
Yeah John does his own thing well and people should offer to want to come onto his channel and Collab
it’s probably more profitable to run his own channel at this point. Plus if he went to work for someone else’s content he’d probably lose creative control. And his videos are quite stylish, he has a very recognizable unique visual and sound style, I even wish he’d bump the music up a bit! It would be a shame to give all this up.
@@ariariaris oh yeah, totally agree. I just meant I'm surprised there hadn't been an 'offer' yet. YT long run would pay much better, the monetisation is tenuous though. Network job only + would be the job security. But over the years I can remember John himself saying "sorry the upload is running late, but I had [activity] with my son" and there's no working at your own pleasure/pace, sadly.
TV is dead bro, why work for a tv outlet when you can be your own boss with sponsors
Crazy how such a simple mistake/oversight could lead to so many deaths. Terrifying.
Thank you for uploading this video, I have lived near Lewisham all my life and often go right past st Johns, yet I have NEVER heard about this train crash before today. So thank you for enlightening me :)
Thank you for another great breakdown Plainly, and thank you for supporting those with OCD.
Thanks, John!! Always look forward to your work. And the weekly weather report.
Many thanks!
Have you ever considered making a video on the 1962 train crash in Harmelen? It's the worst crash in dutch history and lead to the introduction of automatic train protections, as in this crash yellow signals were also missed, likely due to the fog but we'll never really know as no driver survived
Thank you for the suggestion
As always, another great video. Thank you for making such entertaining yet educational and enlightening content!
I live in Australia and have done some work on rail-related projects. It baffles me that in the 2020s AWS & TPWS are still so uncommon here.
That is scary!
The US is probably worse. Here we call it PTC or positive train control. It becomes news topic once theres an accident from speeding or collisions between trains.
The amount of quality content you produce just to put out under creative commons is so cool. Grateful for creators like you
I appreciate that! Thank you
A dreadful disaster ,thankfully the third train managed to stop in time , and since the accident the site is known to be haunted by the cries of the injured still being heard and numerous reports of the Police being called to investigate the spectral sounds coming from the vicinity of the crash.
Hey Plainly Difficult, I really like your videos, and I was wondering if you make a video about the Cajon Pass runaways? They're a string of wrecks in southern California and they're super interesting.
I always found St John's station to have an eerie vibe. Now I know why
Lots of lost souls
There is a ghost story associated with the disaster. A railway bridge inspector who had been working on St John's flyover, was waiting for a bus at 2am near the clock tower. He heard someone calling for help, as they appeared to be trapped. He telephoned the police, and a patrol car arrived. The patrolman heard the voice, but was unperturbed. He said no one is trapped there, and people often hear voices. They have done so since the 1957 crash.
Just in time again, Thank you John!
Enjoy!
I suspect a contributing factor was that the Ramsgate crew were kept waiting for over an hour at the end of the platform in freezing conditions. Research today has shown that prolongued exposure to cold like this reduces mental awareness, so it is quite possible that Trew lost his situational awareness in the fog.
It is always too easy to "blame the driver / signalman" in this situation, without looking at the broader situational background.
Technical video question: What are those black&white bars for? (e.g. at 10:25 ) that appear on the top right corner of the video?
They are a nod to an old British TV thing marking ad breaks. Presumably they are where midroll ads are meant to play. I have premium so I can't be sure where they are at, but it would keep it from interrupting the flow.
You are a skilled narrator, mad skill.
Thank you
3 of my relatives should have been on the train bound for Hither Green but my Grandmother missed it, even though it was late, my Aunt, Heavily pregnant with my cousin, got off the crowded train at St Johns, sat down for a moment and heard the crash, my Uncle got off work early, because of the fog, and just managed to catch the preceding train. They were all very lucky!
It's almost as though this part of the South Eastern Mainline is cursed somehow. Just a short distance away from this crash, just under 10 years after this crash, another severe accident occurred, this time at Hither Green.
On the evening of the 5th November 1967, a 12 Carriage Class 201 DEMU (6S) unit 1007 and Class 202 (6L) 1017 derailed at roughly 70 MPH near Hither Green Maintenance Depot.
The train was packed at the time of the accident, with many passengers standing. The momentum of the crash blocked both the Fast and Slow lines with Traction Current being switched off to aid the rescue effort. In the end, 49 people died and 78 people were injured. The cause of the crash was a rail that had failed due to metal fatigue in one of the bolts at the point where two rails were bolted together (unlike today where they're welded)
Welds can still break and rails can disintegrate, see Hatfield!
@highdownmartin true, but since Hatfield, there has been a greater emphasis on safety, rather than balancing the books at the risk of safety
@@SiVlog1989 been a sharp decline in safety since privatisation which would never have been tolerated underBR. Things are improving but loss of experience takes decades to recover from. Subcontractors are lethal in the railway environment
@@highdownmartin I agree, it just goes to show that rail privatisation, however much apologists try to defend it, was a mistake. Although Network Rail isn't perfect, they take maintenance of the railway more seriously than Railtrack or any private company ever did
I was at Grove Park (the next station to Hither Green) when this happened. We were waiting for a train to go back to Waterloo. We heard it all unfold.
When describing signals controlled from a Westinghouse pattern lever frame, the more typical way is to say "Left" and "Right" in place of L and R as it theoretically describes the lever motion from the point of view of the signaler.
I’d love a Plainly video on railway signalling (both national & International )
This was the first transport accident I can remember hearing and reading about. I'll never forget seeing the evening papers the following day, with sketch diagrams of the crashed trains, the collapsed bridge and the electric train which stopped just short of the gap. (And yet it's an odd fact that the Munich air crash the following February, despite all the even more extensive coverage which that got, made almost no impression on me till a long time afterwards.)
Great Western (and then Western Region) engines not only drove on the right hand side of the cab, but for many years had used all over its system a mechanical ramp and shoe with battery operated cab warning bell plus the ability to stop a train automatically (unless cancelled by the crew). Inspecting officers had for years recommended this system or something like the one on the LTS Tilbury Line to Southend.
After just about every railway accident where a driver overran signals, the Inspecting Officer urged the railway companies to follow the Great Western and equip at least the main lines with Automatic Train Control (ATC). They were reluctant to do this, not because of the cost, but because they were afraid that drivers might become too complacent, by listening to the bell, rather than observing the signal. Finally, after the Harrow crash of 1952, BR went ahead to install ATC on main lines. It is now called Automatic Warning System (AWS). Harrow and Lewisham would then never have happened, nor would the early postwar derailments at Bourne End and Goswick, not to mention countless driver errors before that. Unfortunately, ATC would not have prevented the Quintinshill disaster, as that was signalmen's error.
@@andrewtaylor5984 It should also have stopped the Norton Fitzwarren disaster of November 1940 - but another distracted driver in conditions of poor visibility (wartime blackout) missed some crucial signals and then failed for whatever reason to act on the ATC warning. A three-figure death-toll was avoided almost literally by a hair's-breadth, but 27 still died. Maybe Mr Difficult could take a look at that one?
@@johnjephcote7636 At Norton Fitzwarren, the driver cancelled an ATC warning in error. The last saving grace would have occurred when he passed through Norton Fitzwarren Station; it consisted of two island platforms, and on the main line the platform would have been to the left. On the relief line the platform would have been on the right. Owing to the blackourt, the station was unlit. Before putting too much blame on Driver Stacey, we must remember that his house at Acton had suffered bomb damage a few days beforehand, and the Old Oak Foreman would have been quite happy to give the train to another driver.
Hell yeah St Johns baby! That's my beloved local station. Actually not so beloved, it could so easily be improved in terms of access... But you know, local pride and all. Also great for Deptford if you're on a the wrong train line, and Brookmill Park and other local parks are delightful.
As always, thank you very much John! 👍
My pleasure!
Thanks John your content and narration is very interesting 👍
Glad you think so!
Love that drum and bass vibe in your song at the end.
Sad to see how many times workers are blamed for following the processes the company puts in place
Love your narration and story telling. Keep up the incredible work! Love from Aus! #PDto1Million
Thank you that’s really kind
@@PlainlyDifficult you're so welcome John! Thanks for brightening my day! All the best to you and your family!
You have re-invented your channel and it is awesome!
But I miss the update on your current weather though.
Edit:
Aah you included it, wonder how I missed it.
As it stands, everything is perfect!
At least you `ve got a Station, aa Junction and a Box named after you! Never heard of this one, greetings from an earlier Sunny t W London!
That "Temporary" bridge put up after the crash, is still there and in use today. I worked trains in that area (Guard & Driver) for25 years.
"You want to go for a ride in a Spitfire?"
"Oh my gosh! Yes!"
5:06
T.T
I sure would want to go
Hooray! I've been up for 21 hours so I get to watch it when it drops!
Sad event, great explanation. John is groovy.
You should do the 2012 once station disaster in buenos aires argentina, a passenger train failed to stop at a terminal station and crashed, 51 deaths and 703 injured
I was hoping you would do a video about this accident. I used to commute through St John’s on my way into Central London from Staplehurst where I live.
Useless fact for you, peak time trains heading to Charing Cross use the fast lines where the Cannon Street services use the slow lines ie go past the platforms.
Also have you considered doing a Video on the crash between Headcorn and Staplehurst which involved Charles Dickens.
Cheers
Nice to here something with some jungling vibes from you
FANTASTIC VIDEO! Awesome job thank you
Driver: I haven't seen any signals for a bit, so it must be safe for me to proceed! #Logic
One of the electric units that was in this crash would be repaired but would be in the Cannon Street rail crash in 1991
Very interesting, and a clear and informative video. Do you think you could take a look at the Hither Green Accident, which took place 10 years later than Lewisham, and a mile and a half further south.
Great videos, with excellent, very professional production standards. Really very impressed.
Man Thanks,
Zac.
In the late 1970s I rode a Chicago (USA) commuter line daily into and out of the downtown terminal when I worked at Children's Memorial Hospital. Year's before, the railroad had installed signal repeaters in the cab of each locomotive. I suspect this is the type of system being installed on British Rail at the time of the accident. My question is, why we're the line signals located on the Fireman's side of the locomotive?
Maybe they forgot which Hastings they were actually in and thought they were working on the Soo Line. :D
do you mean that thing that made a bunch of beeping? I remember that on Metro North in NY area if you sat near the cab something made a bunch of beeping when you passed certain areas of track.
British locomotives vary, some have the driver's position on the left, and others on the right. Usually, the signals are on the left of the line, so in this respect it's better if the driver sits on the left (as on, for instance, 60103 Flying Scotsman). But historic tradition meant that some locos were built with the driver on the right. For many locos, you can tell which is the driver's side by looking for the long lever that connects the reverser in the cab to the valve gear: this is on the driver's side of the locomotive. (Obviously this doesn't work on locos with steam-operated reversing gear, but these weren't very common on Britain's railways.)
Southern Region was later than other regions in introducing AWS, which would have made this crash much less likely. AWS sounds a horn when passing a signal showing a caution or stop aspect (red, yellow or double yellow), and the driver has to press a button to cancel the horn, when a visual indicator in the cab then changes to black and yellow stripes. But there is an issue with this system when one train is travelling fairly closely behind another, so it gets a series of double yellow signals (this is quite common in suburban areas with a frequent train service). Repeated cancelling of the horn can become automatic, so it's possible that the driver doesn't notice when the train passes a single yellow after a succession of double yellows, and thus doesn't slow down in time to stop.
Definitely a bad day.
Thanks John.
I agree
My grandparents lived in Thurston Road, just along from the crash site.
I remember my late Father telling me who was within the Civil Engineering side of the Railway the challenge of cutting the collapsed bridge up and how the rails being cut were like tensioned piano wires.
This is really interesting, my Girlfriend used to close to lewisham and she worked at Covent Garden. So I do believe I've been through St. Johns at least a few times.
Interesting. I used to live in Crayford and work in Central London. I don't think I've ever been on a train that stopped at St Johns.
Yes, me too going to Grove Park, "Calling at all stations except St. Johns".
@Plainly Difficult Would you be willing to do a video on the Wallan XPT derailment? It was quite a mess. It's in Victoria, in AU. The XPT set derailed, due to believing the points were set for the main line. But they were actually set for the crossing loop.
So I just finished the video and I am left wondering why didn’t the driver ask the fireman to keep an eye on the signals all along, especially given his location in the cab?
Propably a mix of habbit and tiredness.
The driver propably expexted the fireman to be watching.
Or he though he himself would see.
Or, most likely, he was used to the signals in that area always being green.
Perhaps a touch of arrogance, thinking he was superior and didn't need help from a junior.
Actually it was neither of those reasons. The driver had asked the fireman to read the signals for the previous part of the journey, which he did. However, the signals that were missed were located on the right-hand side of a left-hand curve and so were normally visible to the driver, even in poor visibility. The fireman stopped looking out at that point because the signals were normally visible and because he needed to build up his fire for the gradients on the journey.
What bothers me is that the signals are on the side opposite to the driver. Like, why? That's just begging for trouble.
@@hauntedshadowslegacy2826 Not all engines have the driver's position on the same side!
Just a 110k to go. Seems like just yesterday on another account when I wrote a similar comment on getting to 10k. One of few who listened to us and stayed the same. 👍
Another train into bridge disaster just like my local Granville train disaster here in Sydney. John... I need you to do Granville soon, please.
Also with Eschede . . . .
can you cover the train accident which happened somedays ago in India 288 people ended up dying.
St Johns. I call it the ghost station as very few trains actually stop there. I have spent more time stopped at a signal there than being stopped for passengers!! Have travelled this route a zillion times (it feels like it anyway) and like you until recently I had no idea there had been a major accident locally. As for the "temporary" bridge that is still there? The title explains a lot then as the trains always crawl through there. Cannot imagine them closing the line to put in a permanent one as the bottleneck there and lack of space around would make it almost impossible to do so without closing the line for a few weeks I would have thought, and as it is on the main artery into and out of London into Kent the ensuing travel chaos does not bear thinking about as the roads around there are overloaded as it is.
Even when you think it's all worked out, the unknown can still happen.
St. John's was where we used to get off, to go to my aunt's home, up towards Hilly Fields.
At this same station, two trains collided in a thick fog in March 1898 as well.
Luckily hopefully it is a thing of the past
I couldn’t help but think of the Great Smog of December 1952. If the Clean Air Act in the UK didn’t get passed until 1957, this incident would have happened in basically the same “normal” conditions (not the 5-day event that sickened and killed thousands) as 1952. And I would think that fog/smog would not only make seeing the signals difficult, it would make the colors hard to distinguish. I know that you said the signals are positional as well as colored, but if you can’t see the back plate clearly, how do you know the position? I realize that as someone from the US, historically we’re not ones to talk since our own Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) wasn’t established until 1970, but I was a young child when that happened and was part of the generation taught to think about energy conservation and not polluting in school.
The fact that the engineer didn’t have his fireman watching the signals out the right hand side, where his perspective and sight line was reduced, is infuriating.and 90 people paid with their lives. Like I said, I remember what smog really looked like and how it distorted things like color perception.
Ahh you should collab with Jago on another train disaster! It would be amazing :)
Lovely vidoeo! But I will ask for more industrial accidents, they are so important as there are still alot of cheapscape companies that do it all for the profit. MORE INDUSTRY RELATED CONTENT PLEASE MR JOHN!
I am curious as to why the signals were on the right side, when engineer was situated on the left side of the engine
From the Ministry of Transport report:
30. It will be noted from the inset to Fig. 5 that there is plenty of room for the simple signal posts in the wide space between the Down and Up Through line, but none between the Down Through and the Up Local lines, and to have brought the signal aspects to the left of the Down Through would have required fairly elaborate cantilevered gantries. I understand that at the time of installation, when most of the engines were driven from the right hand side, the signals were sited as nearly as possible to the driver's or fireman's eye level in order to give the best view in the prevailing conditions where curvature and overbridges had to be taken into consideration.
96. Although the Down Through signals between New Cross and St. Johns are on the right hand side of the line, they are well sited, taking into consideration the difficult conditions of curvature, cuttings and overbridges, and it is doubtful whether much improvement would result from moving them to the left hand side of the line. The view from short range would be improved, but from long range it might be reduced.
@@LUAu101 Alright!
Kool tune at the end 😊
Don’t understand why in reduced visibility that the driver would assume all lights were green… or even ask the fireman if he sees the lights…
U should do the australian train crash. "Day of the Roses" movie. Bridge collapses onto a train. They used saws to try and get through the roof of the trains which were made from tar.....u can imagine how well that went. Granville train crash.
So the fireman saw Lima 18 was at danger, but he didn't see the prior signals, correct? Otherwise I'd assume he'd be telling the engineer/engine driver what he saw. That must have been a very bad feeling when the fireman saw Lima 18, knowing his train would never stop in time.
I do not know what the lights in those signals are like today but i can say modern signals pierce fog like butter. You may not be able to see anything out the cab but you can always see the signals. I am sort of a specialist in driving on dark, foggy, and wet track with the wheel slip alarm screaming.
But London smog was another level from the thickest fog you have ever known. It was full of black smoke particles, not just water droplets, so attenuated light very much more severely. The fireman saw the last signal so the others would have been visible from his side of the cab. But the smog would have also made the driver's window dirty, making it even harder to see the signal on the opposite side of the track from the long distance before the smokebox of the loco obscured the view. Easy with hindsight to say that he should have recognised the limitations of visibility and instructed the fireman to look out, but Trew made a mistake on a system that did not forgive mistakes. Which of us has never made a mistake? That's why we need more than one level of safety integrity on life-critical operations.
@@mikebradley4096 In the same vein, not re. this train crash but the fogs of the 1950's. For those that know Glasgow, my father left Rutherglen in the south east of the city one very foggy night at 8pm to travel to his work on the night shift at Hillington on the western suburbs of the city. After various adventures with trains, trams and the Glasgow Subway came back home at 1a.m having walked back home from Cambuslang on the Lanarkshire side! Many people including Londoners I'm sure could tell you tales of how bad the fog was then, cos it wasn't fog, it was smog- a very different beast.
Are you going to do a video on the Titan sub once more information is released?
I would like to
Something that has not been mentioned is that several passengers including the guard and BR staff claimed that they did not feel that the brakes were applied after the danger signal was sighted and up to the collision. As an example, a vacuum braked train in good condition should stop from 30mph in circa 130yds, admittedly there will be a few seconds delay as the vacuum is released from the train pipe. This suggests that either the train was going faster than claimed, the brakes were not fully applied or that there was a problem with the brakes. A SPAD would require an immediate full brake application.
Having driven a 4 loaded coach train hauled by a class 4T at Swanage I can confirm that from 30mph the brakes were surprisingly responsive and powerful.
So why was the double yellow the lesser caution? Wouldn’t you want the more immediately distinct one to be the bigger warning? Not that it matters in this instance since he apparently saw neither of them… but I can see mistaking single yellow for single green in a fog.
You'd be surprised how many people ask that. There are at least 2 very good reasons why double yellow is the lesser caution. 1. Some signals do not have 4 aspects, they have only 3: red, yellow and green. The 4-aspect sequence being red, yellow, double yellow, green means that yellow always means the next signal is red. 2. If one of your yellow lamps should fail the signal fails safe as it shows yellow instead of double yellow. Since one yellow is more restrictive that's safer. If 1 yellow meant the next signal is double yellow and 2 yellows meant the next signal is red, you can see that if one of the yellow lamps failed that would turn a signal which should mean the next signal is red into one which means the next signal is double yellow, which would be bad.
I miss the radioactive stuff. Not that I hate trains - I love them. But your best work involves stuff that glows unnaturally.
Same. There's only so many instances of spoopy rocks getting out of hand, tho.
In my dissenting opinion this is classic PD. Bridge collapses and dodgy mall construction have heritage with PD specifically because there are only so many goofy nuclear technicians alive in the world
@@hauntedshadowslegacy2826 Has he ever covered any of the broken-arrow incidents? Lord knows there were enough of them - the big one in Spain that contaminated a huge area comes to mind.
Great timing!!!🎉
Hi John, I prefer your old patented number rating.
It sounds like everything else aside, it would have been fine if the signals were on the driver side instead of being passenger side for some reason
Ayyy the intro musik is back!
It's interesting to see the number of times that the driver or other crew members are being blamed and put on trial. Yet the companies and organisations, whose poor planning led to such a bad design, get off scot free with little or no scrutiny.
I love the title on the thumbnail... the start of a Plainly Difficult joke XD
Terrible accident - I always wonder how many such disasters were narrowly avoided. Read the memoirs of a railway signalman containing a sobering postscript. As a teenage lad he was often allowed into the signal box at Orpington. One evening he observed a crammed commuter train arrive at the bay platform and disgorge its multitude of passengers. Without any authority he reset the points for the main line just as the signalman from Petts Wood was frantically phoning to say a double-headed express had raced past his signals at danger - within seconds it thundered through the station without incident.