4:40 Can we acknowledge how lucky that fall was. Dear God... I think it's obvious that the developer intended experience is solo or mostly solo with random co-op, if needed. It's fine for people who just want to co-op to do so, because they will never care about the solo experience. It's a double-edged sword, though, in my opinion. I feel like the current system somewhat goes against the core design principle Miyazaki has talked about regarding "everyone having the same struggle". It creates a divide between invaders and co-opers. Pure co-opers often don't care for the extra challenge, so invaders are seen as an annoyance, whereas invaders (mostly) enjoy overcoming the odds and know how to use game knowledge/execution to outplay over-leveled phantoms.
The multiplayer parts of the souls games add so much. From messages to bloodstains all the small things add up to make it seem like a community. Half the time I just like to invade to drop into another world and say hey lol
At 1:38 we can see the twinked bad red man with "end game gear" completely bullying that poor host and his poor overleveled phantom. They never stood a chance against the bad redman, who has endgame gear, weapons and pots 😔
Elden Ringers be like when they hop into ds3 "you cheater that backstab is sus!" Ds3 backstab be like in latency. Or "fuck you glitcher you suck ass" proceed to get stomped to the ground by a average Estus Canceler who use a Claymore and the elden ringer only fight back by spamming Gundyr WA without hardswapping it
My level 10 characters absolute terror in Lim grave yes I might have some in-game gear but I didn't know exploit to get the gear if Miyazaki didn't intend for your friends to drop you gear then why would he allow it in the game
@@davidsmoke751at the very least in ds3 twinking does not mean you're a good player. If you only rely on equipments and not actually good at the game and only being passive and doing parry spam while wearing full Lapp don't get mad when your weak ass got stomped on by a legit non twinking and meta player who just passing through in lower levels to taught you a lesson.
While watching your videos, I realized that we can no longer have just fun 1v1 invasions where both sides use zone-appropriate gear. Invaders create overpowered builds to fight hosts with phantoms. Hosts summon over-leveled phantoms to avoid being killed by twinks. If there were a system that allowed players to only be invaded by those using items from the zone where the host is or has already visited, and that took into account the strength of the healing and the level of the rings/talismans, I believe we could return to the age of solo invasions again.
@@odinskagg8394 not even close to be enough to compensate for your suggestions. that's such a specific thing to ask. now we need 20 different builds to account for all the differences in talis, healing flask and limited zones? how am i ever gonna invade anyone let allone be invaded.
@@Crit-Multiplier That’s the point: to limit lower levels and close the gap so players can’t abuse items and gear that others can’t access yet. I don’t know how you envision invasions, but I recall why I stopped playing online in Dark Souls 3 . After 3-4 invasions in a row where the invaders had four times my HP, their heals were significantly stronger than mine and they had more of them (happpend form High Wall of Lothric to Farron Keep), it stopped being fun. They used infused weapons from coals I couldn't access yet. It frustrating when invaders did more damage and had more HP than bosses. So yes, it may be harder to invade lower-level players, but those fights can actually be enjoyable for both sides and it as well will be more skill based and if the host is new they will have long time to fight the invader and to learn from it instead of getting 1 shot. Okay, maybe not fun for those who twink just to dominate in one-sided fights, but they are the reason I stopped playing online. They reduced the invasion pool for players who wanted to invade a solo host like me that were doing a normal playthrough. I want invasions to be a thing, but I also want to have fun as the one being invaded as well.
While we're talking about the randomness of of players coming to your aid, what do you make of Bloodborne's Beckoning Bell in that context? You more or less ring the bell and hope there's someone nearby, and having someone arrive for assistance was amazing--The best example i can think of was when I was beating my head against the wall in Old Yharnem until a guy showed up to help me. One of my best memories in my 1st playthrough.
I love the bell system in Bloodborne specifically because of how it worked within that game’s progression. Iirc, it was proximity-based and pulled summons in based on their location. The fact that you didn’t need to stay in a static location to summon was an excellent idea that I would have loved to see carry over, especially into a game as big as Elden Ring. The weakest aspect of the system is how there’s no way to manually force the engagement or view who you’re beckoning. Better for play-throughs and worse for dedicated multiplayer.
I’m doing a solo taunter's tongue run right now and the early game has been so awkward lol. Invaders dropping in prepped to deal with the absolute nastiest ganks just for it to be me with a claymore. It either becomes an impromptu honor duel which I know invaders don’t usually like or they treat it like it is and use the pve and environment and I'm kinda outmatched. I do not blame them at all though, im aware of how rough it can be and I’m pushing through it
@@timothyburger6715 lazer back. or find a creek to hide in? spamm is outta hand but still not unbeatable most times. and certainly more than we sometimes want to accept. ever heard of bhs behind a tree or endure into a strong engagement wa? something like twin axe or phalanx
@Crit-Multiplier It's not about whether or not I can it's about whether it's fun to do that. It's a different style of play than past souls games and the weebs love it. Just not for me.
@@timothyburger6715 is it though? that was the most effective way to deal with gankers spamm in ds3 too. bhs gets replaced with quickstep and gundyr swap is literally THE swap most people learned to engage. and endure for elevators. the game hasn't changed all that much in this regard. i just miss playing with more people in a session.
I do gotta say as a long time player, I do the games co-op first, not solo. I'll do it solo with the 2nd character, but I suck at pve, so getting help with the bosses the first time around eases the whole learning experience. Plus exploring with randoms is fun.
For me personally, I will always start a fromsoft game solo and decide later to interact with multiplayer. I do not typically enjoy invasions so I do not play online or interact with it. In that sense I never was part of the pool for invaders, so the idea of seamless coop and modding in general might actually make me more willing to interact with it.
The only issue I’ve ever had with co-oping new players is, this. I personally invade mid to late game, and I always find a host and phantoms and after the fight, I’ll get a message saying that I can fight good, and can I help, and i do, and when I do, they ask me for late game gear, that they googled or so, and I’m assuming they aren’t a noob, but they are, and ask me to carry them through the game, and when we get to bosses, they don’t attempt to dodge and keep dying, and I’m wasting my play time because, they aren’t learning and trying to rely on rune dupes and drops. Now play your game the way you want, but for me, that’s annoying. I only suggest playing solo first, so you can learn to play the game at your pace, discover the weapon type you personally may like, and not just google an op one that spammers use, and to top it off, not be an annoying player asking for rune items to over level you character, just to still die a ton to Gideon. Lol
I like the idea of encouraging multiplayer for NG+. One thing that bothers me about NG+ is that there isn't anything new to do and bosses are the same, DS2 attempted to solve this and it was cool but wasn't quite enough Imagine if the next game unlocked multiplayer for NG+ but also gave bosses new tools to deal with multiple players, because right now bosses become piñatas as soon as you summon someone and can't do anything against someone taking the aggro and another one shooting from afar. Now imagine if bosses in NG+ had ways to deal with that, either through new attacks, better AI, stage hazards or other methods
In my opinion, Co-op is best in short spurts. Spend enough time in the game on your own to enjoy it that way, but the occasional co-op session can be a nice way to blow off steam.
This is a valiant effort, but you may be expecting far too much from this player base if you think they care about things like immersion and atmosphere and role-playing.
A bit pessimistic, no? Five minutes in the arena on pc and I see 1-2 cool cosplay builds, of course among a billion optimised builds and others. But that’s the beauty of choice, right?
Legitimate question because one of the most popular videos on Souls Multiplayer is asking the community "Was this ever fun?" And trying to understand why anyone even cares so much. It's honestly a very refreshing video.
because it was the only unique Multiplayer system since Demon. people back then just play the multiplayer despite it's jankiness. but now it felt like the system was downgraded so much in Elden Ring that most people who play on pc are now playing semaless co-op since it has ds3 style multiplayer system now but the co-op is still seamless albeit with invasions now
I can't even think about going online in 2024. Unless it's a dark souls game or bloodborne. Not trying to slam ER but I would be a liar if I said the multiplayer was remotely compelling.
I'm hearing a lot of crying about other people having fun wrong. :p "every souls vet plays solo first" not me. i've beaten every souls game multiple times, solo & not, and i play all of them co-op with my brother first. The magic of discovery is all the greater and the burden of frustration all the lighter because both were shared between us as they happened. online souls bros (not jon specifically, this video just happens to touch on the subject) keep telling me we're playing these games wrong, but those same bros (again, not jon) also tell me that the latter half of ds1 sucks, that sotfs is a miserable slog, that the frigid outskirts are a crime against humanity, that the chalice dungeons are trash, that the minor dungeons in elden ring are wastes of time, and we had a blast playing through all of those together. Even in this video Jon mentions not engaging with overworld encounters b/c you can just ride past them on your horse, but co-op prevents horse riding (at least without mods), so my bro & I had to slow down, giving us time to appreciate the environment and engage with the enemies and, again, we had a great time. Every souls game has made deliberate co-op with friends easier, so I'm skeptical of the suggestion that this way of playing isn't at least on the spectrum of various intended ways to play these games. Maybe all those online souls bros would have a better time with these games they claim to love so much but can't stop comeplaining about if they got off their high horses & let themselves experience the magic of a little jolly cooperation? ;)
I don't think anyone has legitimately told you you're playing the game wrong. You might of seen a video or an article of saying your playstyle is wrong, but I hardly think anyone would take the time to reach out to you to let you know you're doing it wrong.
yes, I was talking about videos from the amorphous cloud of youtube souls content video makers. not specific content makers, just general trends in souls videos that sort of blend together. I thought that was clear? I'm sorry I wasn't being clear. I'm not even mad or anything, i like souls content even when i disagree with it, I just find it funny how many videos imply I'm playing these games wrong by not engaging with the 'intended experience' when I seem to be having more fun than most of them.
@@Malisteen dw. using a games multiplayer Feature is not a bug nor uninteded. you can use it all you like within the rules of the game. people who say stuff like that either dont know or dont like the rules.
They were far from encouraging it every game, cause when in er you get the longest activation of online, resummons mandatory with every death and every random fog wall and every boss beaten along with progress and boss items still not being shared... nah. The most recent thing they did *directly* about friends co-oping is password summon in ds3, they ported it over. That's it. Everything else is the same as for randoms. LIterally nothing supports it, but you can still do it. A sl 1 broken straight sword first playthrought is not the intended experience. I don't know why you believe being a nay sayer is such a great argument. These souls bro explain with why X is bad or not, like some of the areas you mentionned being rushed and full of cut content, the one thing that GUARENTEES weak points. Your answer ? "Nuh uh". "I was with a friend and we enjoyed it" being with a friend makes playing with a turd funnier, would I recommend a turd ? Nah.
Souls multiplayer is a progression. Where as noobs are called to run the games solo until they summon a friend and or put on the blue ring and eventually turn into vets who are lead to invade/host. BTW great Maxwell invasions. FUN!
I adore Eldin Ring pvp. Only the strong intellect and creative survive. The pvp truly filters out the best or less. It is your ability to adapt to pvp that determines your place. Is it Dark Souls 2 pvp? No. But if you're skilled and sharp, you'll still enjoy what Eldin Ring pvp has to offer, despite the inadequacy.
Elden ring fell of super hard for me once the dlc released I haven’t played it since I 100% the dlc and even that was probably the most disappointing dlc I’ve ever played but man the co op memories I have playing these games makes me smile
4:40 Can we acknowledge how lucky that fall was. Dear God...
I think it's obvious that the developer intended experience is solo or mostly solo with random co-op, if needed. It's fine for people who just want to co-op to do so, because they will never care about the solo experience. It's a double-edged sword, though, in my opinion. I feel like the current system somewhat goes against the core design principle Miyazaki has talked about regarding "everyone having the same struggle". It creates a divide between invaders and co-opers. Pure co-opers often don't care for the extra challenge, so invaders are seen as an annoyance, whereas invaders (mostly) enjoy overcoming the odds and know how to use game knowledge/execution to outplay over-leveled phantoms.
can we also acknowledge 0:37 ?
The multiplayer parts of the souls games add so much. From messages to bloodstains all the small things add up to make it seem like a community. Half the time I just like to invade to drop into another world and say hey lol
At 1:38 we can see the twinked bad red man with "end game gear" completely bullying that poor host and his poor overleveled phantom. They never stood a chance against the bad redman, who has endgame gear, weapons and pots 😔
Elden Ringers be like when they hop into ds3 "you cheater that backstab is sus!" Ds3 backstab be like in latency. Or "fuck you glitcher you suck ass" proceed to get stomped to the ground by a average Estus Canceler who use a Claymore and the elden ringer only fight back by spamming Gundyr WA without hardswapping it
Well they're only playing the game and the way it was intended
My level 10 characters absolute terror in Lim grave yes I might have some in-game gear but I didn't know exploit to get the gear if Miyazaki didn't intend for your friends to drop you gear then why would he allow it in the game
@@davidsmoke751at the very least in ds3 twinking does not mean you're a good player. If you only rely on equipments and not actually good at the game and only being passive and doing parry spam while wearing full Lapp don't get mad when your weak ass got stomped on by a legit non twinking and meta player who just passing through in lower levels to taught you a lesson.
@@davidsmoke751because Miyazaki has no idea of how to balance his games
While watching your videos, I realized that we can no longer have just fun 1v1 invasions where both sides use zone-appropriate gear.
Invaders create overpowered builds to fight hosts with phantoms.
Hosts summon over-leveled phantoms to avoid being killed by twinks.
If there were a system that allowed players to only be invaded by those using items from the zone where the host is or has already visited, and that took into account the strength of the healing and the level of the rings/talismans, I believe we could return to the age of solo invasions again.
with 10times the playercount and crossplatform maybe.
@@Crit-Multiplier When the solo player can get invaded the pool of player that can be invaded would be bigger.
@@odinskagg8394 not even close to be enough to compensate for your suggestions. that's such a specific thing to ask. now we need 20 different builds to account for all the differences in talis, healing flask and limited zones? how am i ever gonna invade anyone let allone be invaded.
@@Crit-Multiplier That’s the point: to limit lower levels and close the gap so players can’t abuse items and gear that others can’t access yet.
I don’t know how you envision invasions, but I recall why I stopped playing online in Dark Souls 3 . After 3-4 invasions in a row where the invaders had four times my HP, their heals were significantly stronger than mine and they had more of them (happpend form High Wall of Lothric to Farron Keep), it stopped being fun. They used infused weapons from coals I couldn't access yet.
It frustrating when invaders did more damage and had more HP than bosses.
So yes, it may be harder to invade lower-level players, but those fights can actually be enjoyable for both sides and it as well will be more skill based and if the host is new they will have long time to fight the invader and to learn from it instead of getting 1 shot.
Okay, maybe not fun for those who twink just to dominate in one-sided fights, but they are the reason I stopped playing online. They reduced the invasion pool for players who wanted to invade a solo host like me that were doing a normal playthrough.
I want invasions to be a thing, but I also want to have fun as the one being invaded as well.
@@odinskagg8394 your last comment is so full of shit that the only thing i can wish you is a nice day.
While we're talking about the randomness of of players coming to your aid, what do you make of Bloodborne's Beckoning Bell in that context? You more or less ring the bell and hope there's someone nearby, and having someone arrive for assistance was amazing--The best example i can think of was when I was beating my head against the wall in Old Yharnem until a guy showed up to help me. One of my best memories in my 1st playthrough.
I love the bell system in Bloodborne specifically because of how it worked within that game’s progression. Iirc, it was proximity-based and pulled summons in based on their location. The fact that you didn’t need to stay in a static location to summon was an excellent idea that I would have loved to see carry over, especially into a game as big as Elden Ring.
The weakest aspect of the system is how there’s no way to manually force the engagement or view who you’re beckoning. Better for play-throughs and worse for dedicated multiplayer.
Chalice dungeon Co-op quick search was one of my favorite things about bloodborne.
@@shambleshef For me it was the adversarial quick search--- both are cool ideas held back by clunky design
I’m doing a solo taunter's tongue run right now and the early game has been so awkward lol. Invaders dropping in prepped to deal with the absolute nastiest ganks just for it to be me with a claymore. It either becomes an impromptu honor duel which I know invaders don’t usually like or they treat it like it is and use the pve and environment and I'm kinda outmatched. I do not blame them at all though, im aware of how rough it can be and I’m pushing through it
I definitely think there’s room for both experiences.
How to improve Elden Ring multiplayer by 10000%
Step 1) Enable freindly fire
I don't know how you can mentally endure all the anime Lazer bullshit in invasions. I can hardly stand this game anymore.
@@timothyburger6715 lazer back. or find a creek to hide in? spamm is outta hand but still not unbeatable most times. and certainly more than we sometimes want to accept. ever heard of bhs behind a tree or endure into a strong engagement wa? something like twin axe or phalanx
@Crit-Multiplier It's not about whether or not I can it's about whether it's fun to do that. It's a different style of play than past souls games and the weebs love it. Just not for me.
Woke people are ruining the country ahh comment
@@timothyburger6715 is it though? that was the most effective way to deal with gankers spamm in ds3 too. bhs gets replaced with quickstep and gundyr swap is literally THE swap most people learned to engage. and endure for elevators.
the game hasn't changed all that much in this regard. i just miss playing with more people in a session.
@Crit-Multiplier In ds3 there were a handful of efficiently spammable long range aoe effects. Now there are dozens. It is simply not comparable.
Thanks, Jon
You’re welcome
I love how this channel just jeeps getting bigger ❤❤. Glad I found ya !
I do gotta say as a long time player, I do the games co-op first, not solo. I'll do it solo with the 2nd character, but I suck at pve, so getting help with the bosses the first time around eases the whole learning experience. Plus exploring with randoms is fun.
For me personally, I will always start a fromsoft game solo and decide later to interact with multiplayer. I do not typically enjoy invasions so I do not play online or interact with it. In that sense I never was part of the pool for invaders, so the idea of seamless coop and modding in general might actually make me more willing to interact with it.
The only issue I’ve ever had with co-oping new players is, this. I personally invade mid to late game, and I always find a host and phantoms and after the fight, I’ll get a message saying that I can fight good, and can I help, and i do, and when I do, they ask me for late game gear, that they googled or so, and I’m assuming they aren’t a noob, but they are, and ask me to carry them through the game, and when we get to bosses, they don’t attempt to dodge and keep dying, and I’m wasting my play time because, they aren’t learning and trying to rely on rune dupes and drops. Now play your game the way you want, but for me, that’s annoying. I only suggest playing solo first, so you can learn to play the game at your pace, discover the weapon type you personally may like, and not just google an op one that spammers use, and to top it off, not be an annoying player asking for rune items to over level you character, just to still die a ton to Gideon. Lol
0:36 😳
I like the idea of encouraging multiplayer for NG+. One thing that bothers me about NG+ is that there isn't anything new to do and bosses are the same, DS2 attempted to solve this and it was cool but wasn't quite enough
Imagine if the next game unlocked multiplayer for NG+ but also gave bosses new tools to deal with multiple players, because right now bosses become piñatas as soon as you summon someone and can't do anything against someone taking the aggro and another one shooting from afar. Now imagine if bosses in NG+ had ways to deal with that, either through new attacks, better AI, stage hazards or other methods
Only thing I disagree with is not summoning big bong 420. He’d at least be a good time
In my opinion, Co-op is best in short spurts. Spend enough time in the game on your own to enjoy it that way, but the occasional co-op session can be a nice way to blow off steam.
This is a valiant effort, but you may be expecting far too much from this player base if you think they care about things like immersion and atmosphere and role-playing.
A bit pessimistic, no? Five minutes in the arena on pc and I see 1-2 cool cosplay builds, of course among a billion optimised builds and others. But that’s the beauty of choice, right?
honey wake up
jon elden ring uploaded
Legitimate question because one of the most popular videos on Souls Multiplayer is asking the community "Was this ever fun?" And trying to understand why anyone even cares so much. It's honestly a very refreshing video.
because it was the only unique Multiplayer system since Demon. people back then just play the multiplayer despite it's jankiness. but now it felt like the system was downgraded so much in Elden Ring that most people who play on pc are now playing semaless co-op since it has ds3 style multiplayer system now but the co-op is still seamless albeit with invasions now
we've spent 2 nights in a row ladder trolling blues
yeah
This is why Miquella Zaki made the multiplayer system
I can't even think about going online in 2024. Unless it's a dark souls game or bloodborne. Not trying to slam ER but I would be a liar if I said the multiplayer was remotely compelling.
I'm hearing a lot of crying about other people having fun wrong. :p
"every souls vet plays solo first" not me. i've beaten every souls game multiple times, solo & not, and i play all of them co-op with my brother first. The magic of discovery is all the greater and the burden of frustration all the lighter because both were shared between us as they happened.
online souls bros (not jon specifically, this video just happens to touch on the subject) keep telling me we're playing these games wrong, but those same bros (again, not jon) also tell me that the latter half of ds1 sucks, that sotfs is a miserable slog, that the frigid outskirts are a crime against humanity, that the chalice dungeons are trash, that the minor dungeons in elden ring are wastes of time, and we had a blast playing through all of those together.
Even in this video Jon mentions not engaging with overworld encounters b/c you can just ride past them on your horse, but co-op prevents horse riding (at least without mods), so my bro & I had to slow down, giving us time to appreciate the environment and engage with the enemies and, again, we had a great time.
Every souls game has made deliberate co-op with friends easier, so I'm skeptical of the suggestion that this way of playing isn't at least on the spectrum of various intended ways to play these games.
Maybe all those online souls bros would have a better time with these games they claim to love so much but can't stop comeplaining about if they got off their high horses & let themselves experience the magic of a little jolly cooperation? ;)
I don't think anyone has legitimately told you you're playing the game wrong. You might of seen a video or an article of saying your playstyle is wrong, but I hardly think anyone would take the time to reach out to you to let you know you're doing it wrong.
yes, I was talking about videos from the amorphous cloud of youtube souls content video makers. not specific content makers, just general trends in souls videos that sort of blend together. I thought that was clear? I'm sorry I wasn't being clear.
I'm not even mad or anything, i like souls content even when i disagree with it, I just find it funny how many videos imply I'm playing these games wrong by not engaging with the 'intended experience' when I seem to be having more fun than most of them.
@@Malisteen Bro, Souls players who only invade (near and far) endlessly, get saltier by the minute. I hope they dont go hallow.
@@Malisteen dw. using a games multiplayer Feature is not a bug nor uninteded. you can use it all you like within the rules of the game. people who say stuff like that either dont know or dont like the rules.
They were far from encouraging it every game, cause when in er you get the longest activation of online, resummons mandatory with every death and every random fog wall and every boss beaten along with progress and boss items still not being shared... nah.
The most recent thing they did *directly* about friends co-oping is password summon in ds3, they ported it over. That's it. Everything else is the same as for randoms.
LIterally nothing supports it, but you can still do it. A sl 1 broken straight sword first playthrought is not the intended experience.
I don't know why you believe being a nay sayer is such a great argument. These souls bro explain with why X is bad or not, like some of the areas you mentionned being rushed and full of cut content, the one thing that GUARENTEES weak points. Your answer ? "Nuh uh".
"I was with a friend and we enjoyed it" being with a friend makes playing with a turd funnier, would I recommend a turd ? Nah.
Remnant 2 does it best. Just minus the PvP 😔
I love ponies
Souls multiplayer is a progression. Where as noobs are called to run the games solo until they summon a friend and or put on the blue ring and eventually turn into vets who are lead to invade/host. BTW great Maxwell invasions. FUN!
I adore Eldin Ring pvp. Only the strong intellect and creative survive. The pvp truly filters out the best or less. It is your ability to adapt to pvp that determines your place. Is it Dark Souls 2 pvp? No. But if you're skilled and sharp, you'll still enjoy what Eldin Ring pvp has to offer, despite the inadequacy.
Elden ring fell of super hard for me once the dlc released I haven’t played it since I 100% the dlc and even that was probably the most disappointing dlc I’ve ever played but man the co op memories I have playing these games makes me smile