I was in San Diego for this Cup. The Kiwis had their lawyers pour over the original Deed of Gift for the America's Cup to find where the boats were limited to 12 meter-class boats, and couldn't find anything stating that. The only stipulation was that the boats couldn't be more than 90 feet (27 meters) at the waterline. They also couldn't find anything that prohibited issuing a challenge every year. Their 90 foot challenger they were planning to use would allow a much taller mast than a 12 meter-class could mount, and therefore the sails could be much larger - catching a lot more wind to move the boat. Team Stars and Stripes - figuring turn-about was fair play - noted that the Deed of Gift ALSO didn't specify the boats had to be a single hull. Their resulting design was a catamaran with no more than 45 feet of waterline per hull. The Kiwis cried "FOUL!" because everyone knew a catamaran would slice through the water faster than a mono-hull could.
It wasn't a fair matchup, but as I recall the Kiwis pretty much had the boat built and ready before they issued the challenge. The US didn't have a way to quickly design something similar, so they did what they did with the two cats. It would have been interesting to see what the San Diego team would have come up with if they had more time.
This documentary glosses over that fact. Most of the problems with the 1988 challenge stems from the situation where while there were rules, there were a lot of unwritten "gentlemens' agreements". One of those was that teams were given several years to design and build a boat especially since Fay wanted a different class of boat (27m vs 12m) as it had been like 50 years since the cup had been raced with something other than 12m boats. It downplayed that Fay wanted to exploit a loophole in the rules to get a cheap win. So the US also used a loophole. It was not written the boats had to be the same or how many hulls a boat could have.
This video is a bit one sided. Dennis Conner was an asshole, and his behavior in 1988 was especially despicable, but Michael Fay’s “rogue” challenge wasn’t very sportsman like either. Fay used the courts to force a Cup Defender to accept a challenge less than a year after the previous Cup, then he tried to force them to design, build, test, and race a very radical boat in a matter of months. The catamaran was a ridiculous response to an equally ridiculous challenge.
@@ThatSB A challenge can be lodged at anytime. However is up to the cup holder to set the racing protocols. It was the Kiwi's fault for forcing their protocol when it wasnt theirs to make.
@@FastForwardSailing I was asked to be on board! Stupidly I declined saying that there was no money, even wages , to be part of AC! I have 20/20 vision looking back.
I sailed onboard Stars and Stripes. The cat was in the bay of Tangolunda, Oaxaca, Mexico as a charter. The experience was incredible. You would fly 16ft above the water at high speed. The ship had Stars and Stripes graphics over the hull and wing. Great souvenirs.
The Stars&Stripes sailed from Huatulco, Oaxaca Mex. to the San Diego yacht club in a 19 day/night epic open sea madcap folly of a venture. Captained by cat owner Victor Tapia. Upper 10' of hardsail wing demasted in rough seas, charts blown overboard, subsequent crewmember following charts to save them, early GPS Magellan gobbling up AA batteries, averted whale collisions and sundry misadventures all unable to thwart a truly majestic vessel. 8 lives and heartfelt thanks are owed to it's designers. The Kiwi race was little more than a sideshow bagatelle and 1% pissing match. 'The Cat Came Back' by the grace and unassuming true heroism of a Mexico City car mechanic employed as the Stars&Stripes boat manager.
Kiwis show up with a radical design… America responds with a radical design. And because the Kiwi’s did that, Americas Cup keeps getting faster and more radical. Far beyond what Fay and Connors could have imagined. It’s astonishing to see how far it has come. Truly breathtaking feats of engineering and sailing skill… just as the Americas Cup has always been.
@@frankesposito2182 the kiwis tried to change the type of boats being raced, and the format. The USA outsmarted them in court, as they trying to cheat. A radical new design is still a new design, and kiwis opened that can of worms. Crying about being outsmarted sounds pretty sad.
@@kailaniandi Kiwis operated completely within the rules of the America's Cup, they were permitted to challenge at any time with any single mast designed boat no longer than 90 feet. Sand Diego Yacht Club was arrogant, knowing full well the Kiwis were preparing a challenge and what it was going to be, but despite the Kiwis attempts to meet with them, Connor and his fat mates refused meetings including when the Kiwis visited the club in person. This behaviour was typical of Connors and some in the US yachting world who for reasons only known to them thought they were the owners of the cup and could do as they please rather than follow the terms set out clearly in the Dead.. Australia 2 and Alan Bond had similar issues when they won it in '87. .. They also thought they could bully little old NZ and send them away to race at a time of their choosing in 3 or 4 years. But that's not the conditions of the dead, and NZ had geared everything up they weren't about to mothball the boat and disband their team and efforts, loose all their money just to restart all over again in 3 or 4 years time - that's totally unrealistic, could very well bankrupt people and leave many without jobs etc etc. So despite the efforts of Kiwis to try and meet to discuss the terms of the challenge in a gentlemanly way as has been done for 150 years prior, they never met leaving no choice but to issue the formal challenge according to the dead. It wasn't a surprise, it's not like NZ was hiding on Mars or the Dark side of the moon and suddenly popped out of the shadows. The US knew exactly what they were doing, trialling , designing and wanting to talk about. Following the challenge which the dead says the defenders must accept and then negotiate by mutual agreement the final design and event details (again the Kiwis gave US plenty of time to do this with them informally prior to issuing the challenge) the US refused to accept the challenge and still would not meet to discuss the design and event details. Refusing under the dead meant the trophy went to the challenger, but they wouldn't hand over the trophy either, NZ had no choice but to take it to court and either be awarded the trophy or force Connor to race. The US then designed a catamaran, because of a loop hole and the Kiwis protested that the dead specifically says a 'match race' of mutually agreed designs.. A catamaran vs a mon-hull does not represent a 'match race' and nor did they mutually agree. the court refused to rule and instead told them to race and sort it out afterwards, which is what they did.. So for the first time in 150 years a match race was not conducted and a multi-hulled boat was raced. Not very sporting considering NZ tried to sort it all out beforehand. Connor and his team then carried on like the arrogant wankers they are , so bad that their own country turned on them... they showed no humility, they lied , they were unprofessional and unsporting.... and you watched that video, you reckon the Kiwis cheated and you're happy and proud of the way the US and Connor acted ... you're on your lonesome there my man... not even you're own countryman agree with you ... just fat Denis and his mates at that moment in time agree with you. They manipulated a loop hole with regard to mulit-hulls that weren't even thought of or invented at the time the dead was written .. Why didn't the talk to the Kiwis beforehand, design their own mono-hull and race them? .... No one will forget what they did and how they carried on ... Even fat Dennis is ashamed of his antics and has since apologised ....
If you live by the sword you die by the sword. NZ used a loophole to challenge in a huge boat and a short time frame in the hope that USA could not build a similar boat in enough time to learn how to be competitive. Instead USA also used a loophole to defend in a catamaran. Then Kiwis complained because they had been beaten at their own game - exploiting loopholes !
USA was true to their old selves. Liars and cheats. Masters of deception. As they have been for all of their very short history. Are you only aware of the deed of gift that defenders had to challenge and was written by the USA ?
As others have said, this was an extremely one-sided account of a situation in which nobody covered themselves in glory. Fay used a legalistic, technical reading of the Deed of Gift to obliterate long-standing protocols of sporting behavior and essentially dictate the schedule and ground rules of the race from the Challenger position on short notice. His goal was an ambush, plain and simple. He won that initial legal battle because his read of the Deed of Gift was technically correct, even if unsporting. But then when Connors and the San Diego crew effectively said "Well fine, if we're going to be legalistic and technical about interpreting the Deed at the expense of precedent and the sporting spirit of the agreement, we're going to all the way to the logical extreme of that approach." The catamaran was unsporting. It was unfair. And Connors behaved like a prick. But none of it happens if not for Faye's effort to ambush the Cup to press his perceived advantage. In the end, everyone really lost, including the America's Cup as a whole. Everyone looked childish and foolish, and the event was permanently diminished after all the ridiculous bickering and litigation.
Well put. Fay was a master of gaslighting. I suspect that Fay thought he was clever with his plan of the ambushing. Then when it wasn't as clever as he thought, backfiring on him, he couldn't face the truth of the situation. Fay never allowed himself to just let go of his unsportsmanlike try, and he doubled down in a way that he prevented even his own mind from seeing his plan's true unsportsmanlike nature. I think he felt he was already entitled to the win after hatching his 'clever' challenge plan and then investing so much (ego and money) into his boat.
I see KZ1 most weeks, the turning point on my long run is under her bowsprit. Unfortunately the rig has been removed and she is not quite the imposing landmark she was.
I hate how they took the rig off. When I first moved to nz when I was 6 we often visited KZ1 with her rig on multiple times and its a nostalgic memory I have
Sadly, this cup marks the end of sailing being 'cool' in the US for the next generation. These days, all of the US Americas Cup teams are full of sailors from NZ and Australia.
While I was a baby at the time and completely unaware of sailing, from looking at the media of the day, I think the San Diego editions of the AC in the 90s were still broadly popular in the US-- they were the first story in the sports sections of newspapers and sometimes even on the front page overall, they had ESPN coverage, there were America's Cup jokes in MAD Magazine and on Aaron Sorkin's show "Sports Night", etc. *Offshore* sailing also got a surprising amount of coverage in Sports Illustrated in the 1990s during the extreme sports craze even though most competitors there were French or British. I think the real point it fell out of American popular consciousness was sometime in the 2000s.
That's because Sailing USA focused on the America's cup to the detriment of all other sailing events in the US. Where as Aus and NZ both have significant focus on their main domestic regattas as well as being among the first to embrace of the new global comp's that were deemed "inferior" by sailing USA. Things have improved, but there's still too much focus on vanity projects like winning the Olympics instead of fortifying domestic US comps.
I don't really understand why cheating was so cool - because prior to Alan Bond taking the cup - the rules were meant to hamper nations smaller than US. The rules regarding sail material meant that every other nation except US had horrible sails.
It's never been the same for me since the 12m. Cats and the winged boats are not most who sail can relate to. I miss the days when you could tell when a team was ready to tack because those on the rail would flick their cigarette butts away all at the same time, LOL.
The bias is laughable. "They expected nothing less than integrity, sportsmanship and a fair match...", yet issued a challenge with their boat already built and tested, giving the defenders minimal time to respond in kind. He did not challenge in good faith and made the AC a lawyering circus. That is his legacy.
@@randbarrett8706 The problem with the challenge was it gave the defenders only 1 year to design and build not only a new boat but a new class of boat (27m) that the challenger already built. It was a ridiculous challenge. For the past 50 years, 12m boats were used. If Fay had issued a challenge and stayed in 12m, there would have been grumbles but that would have been doable. Or if Fay had given the US 4 years to build a 27m boat, that would have been sporting. Fay was right that nothing in the rules said that the boat had to be 12m or how much time the defender could be given. So the US pulled a reverse Uno and used catamarans as nothing in the rules said the boat had to be single hull. Personally I view Fay's desperation to win the cup back as exploiting loopholes to win rather than a fair match.
Michael Faye stopped others from challenging, cut the time between AC regattas, changed the boat to a design that gave his team a huge advantage over the holders and then cried foul when the rules were used to the Americans advantage. This whole challenge was a disgrace and although you might have concerns over some of the sportsmanship of previous teams, at least the competions were in 12s of the same type and open to all challengers with a time period that allowed designers and boat builders a fair go. The Sail GP series is the best sailing now, the AC is an expensive joke!
The simple fact is that for decades everyone understood what the rules were and how the cup was being contested. It was fair and it worked. Fay choose to be a jerk and start playing games designing and building a new radical unheard of boat and then dropping a short notice challenge on San Diego knowing full well that because of the timing he had a massive advantage. The US side forced to meet this challenge simply built a better more radical boat which, as was determined later, legal under the deed. Fay’s ego cost everyone involved untold millions of dollars and was in the end a waste of everyone’s time and seriously detrimental to the health of America’s cup racing. That waste of time and money and damage done to the Sport is his real legacy.
I was still confounded and upset that the USA would be sailing a catamaran in the AC. I went down to San Diego with hopes the Kiwis could miraculously beat Conner. My only consolation was to see the kiwis majestic monohull in action and what a beautiful sight she was! I live in the past and of the days of the J Class beauties.
As a kiwi I was as caught up in this at the time, but in time I’ve come to appreciate that USA was just as entitled to do and act the way they did. The unintended consequence was the galvanisation of a generation to support Team NZ to bring the cup here. My fear is the betrayal of home town defence, the cornerstone of support, in pursuit of a bigger payoff will dull the fervour that could as easily disappear as it did with NZ soccer in the 80s
@@robert-fz3ku you are right nz should have waited. or at least at the bare minimum challenged in the well established 12meter rules. they threw the rule book out and expected USA to follow suit and design a build a whole new 90+ foot boat in a mater of months. what a pile of bull.
Right now its a fair challenge and pushes the absolute max out of the available technology. The current AC class of boats are incredible feats of maximum performance and ingenuity
Kiwis switched from Aluminum to Fiberglass and were like "doesnt say anything about building material in the rules" and won. Then American switched from 1 to 2 hulls and were like "doesnt say how many hulls in the rules" and won. Pushing technology by definition means doing different things. An alternative is to say in the stone age, saying bronze makes it not a fair fight. Yea, life is not fair, this is a competition of boat technology.
Yes and no. There have to be some definitions, otherwise theyd make a jet powered "sail" boat and finish the race in a quarter hour. That being said, what the rules should be is arbitrary and subjective. I love catamarans, so i have no problem with them being used in races. But they are also fundamentally superior to monohulls and matching them together is like having men and women compete in sports.
if the rules had such the loophole, I am surprised someone else didn't exploit it earlier. but it would have been more sporting to verbally bring to the table, before smugly building a boat for race day.
@vibratingstring Not sure what your point is; 12 Meters suck? They do not. A refutation point by point: (1) By 1988 or so when Fay was wreaking havoc, the Newport twelves had been relegated to charter boat racing of a rather low caliber, with charter guests as crew. No new twelve meter has been built since 1986, so the class has been severely diminished since its heyday. Blaming Fay is a reasonable proposition. (2) Though quite a bit smaller than their J boat predecessors, twelves are rather big and heavy, and campaigning one has always been a multi-million-dollar proposition. Calling them small and obsolete is a non sequitur. (3) They were always cutting edge. The Cup races 1958-1987 demonstrated the best (professional) sailors sailing the best designs available at the time. (4) Same point as before. Twelves were expensive to design, man, and sail. Lack of adequate funding sank many a campaign. The 12-meter class was a reasonable, prudent and highly successful choice given money constraints, yet they were large enough, graceful and picturesque enough to capture the hearts of many generations of sailors. Their demise as a Cup boat is severely lamented by many of us, like me, who sailed aboard them. PS Did you forget to duck when Nefertiti's gybed? I'm sure Ted is sorry.
Why? As fascinating as it was to come from boats in the 25-35 foot range to sail the 12M Rs, they were heavy to sail, not very responsive and because of the sheer mass and slow acceleration they put a lot of pressure on the rigging. The 12M R's had missed the whole development that people like Bruce Farr/Paul Withing/Laurie Davidson and more were behind of light fast surfing boats. While I did participate in one run where we were probably going at least 25 knots+ it was not made for that and parts kept breaking.
@@dap777754 By the 1980'ties they were definitely not the cutting edge but old-fashioned designs with massive limitations. The fact that the New York Yacht had the rules that everything down to the materials used for the sails... had to be from the challenger country had the competition skewed for years - it was such bad sportsmanship. 12MR were definitely not modern yachts with the keels like they had been done 50 years earlier, and the hull shapes being pretty old as well.
Are you mixing two different races/boats in your statement? The original race around the Isle of Wight, was generously handed to the Americans in good sportsmanship, since they failed to round a marker buoy correctly. The NYYC showed their lack of class over the next decades & denis connor continued that tradition. Thankfully Australia II broke them both.
For me, this was the end of the Americas Cup. I lost complete interest and I’ve only held more contempt for those players since then. I can’t relate to any of the boats in the last couple of decades but I love TP52’s, Comanche, Skorpios, the J Boat revival etc.. It’s all quite disappointing.
I love watching the J Boats. Seeing two of them heeled over on opposite tacks bearing down on each other is beauty, speed and courage all wrapped up in one package.
@@jameskiehm546 = Your comment was posted one year ago, and - seen in the light of the 2024 Louis Vuitton Cup (the AC races start tomorrow) - it seems unfair. The LV 2024 races have been very interesting, particularly those of the final. The AC-75s are fascinating boats and exciting to watch, as soon as there is more than 8 kts or so of wind. Can't wait to see if the AC37 regatta between ETNZ and Ineos Britannia shall be as much disputed!
Foiling, which began with the winged keel, now has turned the America's Cup into an on the water NASCAR race. Very exciting but totally different from the traditional racing that made the Cup the graceful spectacle that it was. The whole issue with the Big Boat vs The Cat sent the cup into an endless round of legal fighting from which it never recovered.
At its core, yacht racing, as it used to be called, is about bending and breaking rules and outspending the other guys whenever possible. It also is one of the few sports where hundreds if not more folks can be.."world champion each year. This just is a depiction of the essence of the sport at its highest levels
Building a new fast mega yacht in secret for a year or so and then showing up and demanding a race is hardly sporting. Faye got what he deserved when the SDYC responded in kind.
I don't know why I watched this again...the most egregious case of whinging by a losing team (that tried to cheat to start with) ever. The Kiwi's said "no rules" then brought a knife to gun fight.
As far as I'm concerned, it was the judge's fault. She should have followed rule of precedent and told New Zealand to return three years later. Connor and crew were guilty as charged for poor sportsmanship. But so was New Zealand. They had their boat already built and tested before they submitted their challenge. Then they insisted on having a race right away, giving their opponents little time to prepare. They should have posted their challenge, along with the new boat type, then waited for the traditional timing of the race. I think both sides cheated. And I think the judge should have thrown the matter out of her court. If only both sides could have lost.
As despicable as I find Dennis and his team's attitude/way of responding to others - it typifies the American stereotype, they build th faster boat according to the rules. If one side decided that they'd use the letter of the law/rules to force the issue, they can't then get upset when the other side uses the letter of the rules as well, and wins with something faster. They decided the playground was tight interpretation of rules.
Starting with the very first race in 1851, competitors have been shaving the rules. America's victory in that first race was met with controversy because her owners did scandalous things like leave out the wine cellar, and china cupboards.
I have been an avid sailor since I was a child, mostly Cats..but I have owned and sailed 25-33-40 footers....I remember that I did not like Dennis Conner, and I have always been a Bruce Farr fan. My father could not believe the court system was tied up with such nonsense......my memory of it was this was a 40 footer race, and NZ showed up with a 90 foot boat...hence the Cat response. I don't know any sailor in America that thought the America's cup was suppose to be a multi hull race. To me, it should have stayed a 40 foot race..... These days the Mini 6.5s and the Vende are the must watch stuff.
The Deed of Gift is a nineteenth century document which has been redrafted twice. It' language is ambiguous in places and the drafting style is imprecise. Over time the meaning of several key words has changed, reflecting the etymology of language in the period between the execution of the third deed on 24th October 1887 and the NYSC's validation of the NZ challenge on 25th November 1987. The America's cup is a challenge cup and the 1988 Deed of Gift Match set the precedent that any hull configuration is acceptable under the Deed's terms provided the Deed's dimensional limitations are observed. The legal action between the Golden Gate Yacht Club (GGYC) and the Societe Nautique de Geneve further clarified the Deed in requiring a qualifying yacht Club to have run an annual regatta on the sea or an arm of the sea in the past as a condition precedent. it is insufficient that it has not yet held such an annual regatta bu plans to do so. The SDYC could potentially have agreed terms to meet the Mercury Bay Boating Club in a similar boat at a time which was mutually agreeable, but they viewed the audacity of the Deed of Gift Challenge in such a way that the animosity made a agreed match an extreme improbability. Mediation by a party other than the NYSC might have improved the chances of a competitive match, but again the probability would have been low.
While the SDYC could have agreed to a similar boat, building a brand new boat class in less than 1 year's time was difficult if not impossible. 12m boats had been used for the past 50 years at that point. That soured the challenge and the US response. From my perspective, Fay stacked his challenge with conditions so that he could not lose. It would be like me challenging someone to a marathon tomorrow and in another country where I have been in that country training for months. Sure my challenger could technically meet the conditions but him/her not liking or agreeing to such terms and rejecting it is hardly surprising.
When showing the damage at Southwestern yacht club, that's my father's Grand Banks 32 next to the broken concrete dock. Now im living on a Leopard 48 Cat in keywest
Don't forget that the USA tried to have that keel declared illegal. So they were not in favour of innovation at that time. Of course now the boats used are unrecognisably different.
theres a huge difference between a winged keel on a 12m yacht and whatever the he11 kz1 was. and they wanted a race in less then a year? the cat was supposed to be a slap on the wrist so they could get back to 12m rules for 1992. a warning of what americas cup would become if they ditched the 12m rules.... then iacc ditched 12m rules... whops.
This was the end for the America's Cup. I was incensed at the Kiwis for breaking traditions and then at the SDYC for the further degradation of the whole thing into a legal fight off the water. And I felt at the time and still do that Dennis Conner, whatever his ability as a skipper - and he was a superb skipper, no question about it - is an arrogant ass.
@vibratingstring That ended in 1983 when Australia II beat Dennis Connor and Liberty and took the Cup to Perth. The wing keel was a technical innovation within the class rules and I always thought the Aussies beat the defender fair and square. Yeah the NYYC had established the format with 12-meter class boats from '58 on but they were no longer dictating the rules. Fay's challenge with the big boat was unsporting in that he tried to exploit loopholes in the Deed of Gift to his advantage, technically legal but nevertheless unfair. And then Dennis had to go and be an ass about the whole thing - a specialty of his.
@@michaelbaughman8524 So when your opponent is an asset within the letter of the law, you're supposed to take it up the ass and not show him to be a farce?
Connor was an ass. But make no mistake about it, Fay was the bigger ass. Rather than learning from a promising first AC campaign, he single handedly started a spat which should never have happened in the first place. Even as a Kiwi, Fay deserved the biting on the ass he got.
@michaelbaughman8524 I agree with your comment generally. But I think the initial response was intended in good humour. For a long time, the rules did favour the defender. That has changed and nowadays the race is almost unrecognisable from the 90's onwards.
@@michaelbaughman8524 Fair and square if the Australians designed the winged keel all by themselves, without help from the Dutch at the Netherlands towing tank -- where the boat was designed and tank tested. That's a big if, if you ask me. My understanding is that a Dutch understudy naval architect, who was there, had the distinct impression that the Dutch helped hatch the idea. He waited to come forward, as I recall. Which, if true, sorta puts Dennis' assholeness in (a somewhat diminished) perspective.
As an American, I always want us to win the Americas Cup. However, I want it in an even playing field. Also, Conner showed zero class. To the Kiwis, not all Americans feel good about what happened.
That kiwis ego ruined the cup. Everyone 'cheated', but at least they were similar boats. Building a plastic boat created an unfair advantage. Computer installation, was an unfair advantage. Kiwis were crying because they were still in the monohull box.
The 1988 America's Cup was the first hostile Deed of Gift challenge. End of story. Don't talk about honor... For everyone out there who never heard of this, the KZ1 was built with the sole purpose of being so preposterously absurd (size,cost,crew,etc) that no one could mount a defense in time. AKA a sucker punch. Live by the sword die by the sword.
You know it does depend. On a smallish lake in either light airs or very heavy wind and with short legs, a planning monohull like my international fireball tacks a lot quicker , points higher to windward and goes on the plane with no terminal speed in heavy wind than my 14ft Newcat. Sonits wrong to say all cats are quicker than all monohulls.
When Australia took the cup off the Americans that was it . After that it became a real shit fight and it would never be the same again in all its glory. To see all these old fellows from the New York Yacht Club in tears as the cup was thrown around by Bondi and the crew was precious and it would never be the same again.
Michael Fay was pretty arrogant from the outset... To expect to head to the opposite side of the world, ambush the San Diego YC with terms that NZ had one-sidedly crafted, set a race deadline 12 months after the defender had just won The Cup... They had it comin'!!
Sail races that have to be decided in courts were the only way the US team could keep the cup so long…. They cant even get in the finals now. The NZ team is the most underfunded but has the best brains and talent.
This video is utterly biased and clearly made by a Kiwi. The Kiwi challenge was a disgrace from the beginning. Everything was underhanded, conniving and unsportsmanlike.
9:25 the catamaran is obviously the better boat. Ok, the Americas cup is about who can make the best boat, within the rules. Rules just said max length, no minimum length.
I don't know. The whole thing might have been distasteful, but it seems to me something good came out of it in the end. Admision. Everyone here is admitting that Cat's are faster. They are certainly more exciting to watch when they race. For whatever reason, tradition, etc., the monohulls have been the staple of the wine glass clinking, caviar eating crowd forever. Let's be real. If you are going to race, you should use a race car. You will get far more interest in what you are doing. Monohulls have far more wetted surface and will always be slower. It sounds me like these boats should be raced as an exercise in historical reenactment. Which is fine. By the way, if history and culture is you main motivator, multihulls also have a history and culture too... Race a Trimirran or a Catamaran, they are faster, more fun to watch, and are far more of a race car. Don't race a station wagon.
It actually amazes me that it took practically 20 years more before everyone finally got together and thought "heyyy, these cats are fast and fun! Surely this will grow the sport". Sadly, for SailGP this is true but for the AC, there seems to be less and less teams each regatta. I really hope they find a way to reverse this trend.
Just deserts for the kiwis to throw a challenge out with going through the process of challenging first. Anyway, once Australia won it in 83 the mystic and aurora was over,the Kiwis just buried it
I remember that it, I was proud with Michael Fay and Bruce Farr were successful a KZ1 design was bigger size in history 1900s AC's boats. Until 2000s, we saw muilt-hull with foil went fast sometime lot crash & fell. It's difficuilt set up after fell. On 2019 our ETNZ and Italy were new design first "Foiling mono-hull" were first test been successfully is super faster, It's won't fell boat. Until now 2024, We saw more create boat like AC75 1/2 scales for Youth & Women race were success race and none crash. Good bye old technology (1800 to 2000) were slow speed of AC's yacht. From 2000 year toward, new technologies boat with foiling are much better high speed in low wind. So, Kiwi were proud ETNZ's design advance technologies and high performance AC boat are great winner than other countries.
This was a farce & for me the beginning of the end of my love of the America's Cup. That died completely after the 2007 series. I can't see it ever coming back.
Does America always need to be involved in the 'Cup'. I mean like, could it be between say, NZ and the Aussies if they had the two fastest yachts and qualified?
It's a common question. The answer is no, America don't need to be in the Cup. They often are but several times including in the last Cup they didn't qualify. Because of the name of the cup people often think that America must be involved but actually the Cup isn't named after the country but the first yacht to win the trophy. Check out this video for how the cup came to be- th-cam.com/video/hz-amnxfmiI/w-d-xo.html
@@FastForwardSailing Thanks for that. I gotta say though I lost interest since the cats came in. I was in California when we, Oz, won the cup in 83. Also in Perth for 87. Fantastic times for both.
@@garyritchie3556 Yeah there's certainly a big divide between fans which like and the cats and those that don't. It's not cats anymore but still foiling. Must have been great being an Oz fan at that time!
@@FastForwardSailing Oh don't get me wrong, I love watching those foil cats race, amazing stuff. But the AC has lost the importance, besides I never know when it's on. Yes it was free drinks everywhere in 83 in Canada and US, and the party atmosphere in Perth in 87 was euphoric. When the racing was on in 87, with the number of boats on the water, you could literally walk across to Rottenest Island, 19km away. Loved it all.
Anyway of all the rules, it is ridiculous to race a DTM or BTC against a Formula 1 claiming they are both cars. Both great boats with skilled crews in different spheres (Cat’s are no sailboats☝🏻😉😁) . When i saw this i remember as a boy of 13 years, that my father shouted to the television some not nice words. Know i understand him and i agree… no matter what it was. Handful.
- its equally ridiculous to challenge a team you know is capable of building an F1 car to a race where the only technical requirement is the car being under 5meters long and expecting to win with said DTM car.
@@banaana1234 yes and no. When you talk about a DTM while you build a DTM and the opponent builds a F1, you can not go back. From that moment, the kiwis knew about Conner‘s boat, they had no time to construct and build a new. Connor is a typical, wide walking, chewinggum american. I would not want to sit with him in the same boat, sorry. Like a dog who roar one person and stay calm on a nother person. Mybe i‘m wrong, but my dog would roar to Connor.
It would actually be interesting to know if they could have brought along a speed boat. The deed of gift design rules seem so lax that it might have even been possible ("no design requirements other than that the boat was to be 90 feet (27 m) or less at the waterline if it had one mast").
This bloody Cup is still sucking money out of the NZ public!!! They can't even be bothered holding the challenge in NZ anymore - It's in Barcelona!! Rich Boys and their Toys - they can bugger off!
The yanks out of desperation to win tore up the "rulebook". A cat is not a yacht. As a consequence, it's become an open class and they've only held the cup 40% of the time since then.
FIRST OF ALL THE "WINGED KEIL DESIGN" IN 84 STARTED IT...WHY BLAME THE YANKS ??? THEY WANTED TO WIN LIKE THE 84 WINNERS !!! SO.....A TASTE OF THERE OWN MEDICINE CHANGED THE SPORT !!! IT WASNT THE YANKS FAULT BUT THE COMMITIES !!! !!! !!!
Dumb move by NZ, they were going back in time to the era of the large J class boats and retarding instead of advancing sailboat design. A bitter pill to swallow but the NZ team was outmanoeuvred by team USA off the water. Can you imagine a half dozen or more challengers having to build those large boats?
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I was in San Diego for this Cup. The Kiwis had their lawyers pour over the original Deed of Gift for the America's Cup to find where the boats were limited to 12 meter-class boats, and couldn't find anything stating that. The only stipulation was that the boats couldn't be more than 90 feet (27 meters) at the waterline. They also couldn't find anything that prohibited issuing a challenge every year. Their 90 foot challenger they were planning to use would allow a much taller mast than a 12 meter-class could mount, and therefore the sails could be much larger - catching a lot more wind to move the boat. Team Stars and Stripes - figuring turn-about was fair play - noted that the Deed of Gift ALSO didn't specify the boats had to be a single hull. Their resulting design was a catamaran with no more than 45 feet of waterline per hull. The Kiwis cried "FOUL!" because everyone knew a catamaran would slice through the water faster than a mono-hull could.
It wasn't a fair matchup, but as I recall the Kiwis pretty much had the boat built and ready before they issued the challenge. The US didn't have a way to quickly design something similar, so they did what they did with the two cats. It would have been interesting to see what the San Diego team would have come up with if they had more time.
This documentary glosses over that fact. Most of the problems with the 1988 challenge stems from the situation where while there were rules, there were a lot of unwritten "gentlemens' agreements". One of those was that teams were given several years to design and build a boat especially since Fay wanted a different class of boat (27m vs 12m) as it had been like 50 years since the cup had been raced with something other than 12m boats. It downplayed that Fay wanted to exploit a loophole in the rules to get a cheap win. So the US also used a loophole. It was not written the boats had to be the same or how many hulls a boat could have.
This video is a bit one sided. Dennis Conner was an asshole, and his behavior in 1988 was especially despicable, but Michael Fay’s “rogue” challenge wasn’t very sportsman like either. Fay used the courts to force a Cup Defender to accept a challenge less than a year after the previous Cup, then he tried to force them to design, build, test, and race a very radical boat in a matter of months. The catamaran was a ridiculous response to an equally ridiculous challenge.
Agreed. Both sides had their faults.
But the cup could be challenged for at any time.
@@ThatSB A challenge can be lodged at anytime. However is up to the cup holder to set the racing protocols. It was the Kiwi's fault for forcing their protocol when it wasnt theirs to make.
@@FastForwardSailing I was asked to be on board! Stupidly I declined saying that there was no money, even wages , to be part of AC! I have 20/20 vision looking back.
@@rhysnolan7458 Well done for being in a position where they'd take you. Was it New Zealand or USA?
I sailed onboard Stars and Stripes. The cat was in the bay of Tangolunda, Oaxaca, Mexico as a charter. The experience was incredible. You would fly 16ft above the water at high speed. The ship had Stars and Stripes graphics over the hull and wing. Great souvenirs.
The Stars&Stripes sailed from Huatulco, Oaxaca Mex. to the San Diego yacht club in a 19 day/night epic open sea madcap folly of a venture. Captained by cat owner Victor Tapia. Upper 10' of hardsail wing demasted in rough seas, charts blown overboard, subsequent crewmember following charts to save them, early GPS Magellan gobbling up AA batteries, averted whale collisions and sundry misadventures all unable to thwart a truly majestic vessel. 8 lives and heartfelt thanks are owed to it's designers. The Kiwi race was little more than a sideshow bagatelle and 1% pissing match. 'The Cat Came Back' by the grace and unassuming true heroism of a Mexico City car mechanic employed as the Stars&Stripes boat manager.
Kiwis show up with a radical design… America responds with a radical design.
And because the Kiwi’s did that, Americas Cup keeps getting faster and more radical.
Far beyond what Fay and Connors could have imagined.
It’s astonishing to see how far it has come. Truly breathtaking feats of engineering and sailing skill… just as the Americas Cup has always been.
Best comment!
So exciting that I hadn't watched it since Fremantle in 85/86. Just a bunch of foreigners on other countries boats these days.
But who said they could use Catamarans ???
@@frankesposito2182 the kiwis tried to change the type of boats being raced, and the format. The USA outsmarted them in court, as they trying to cheat. A radical new design is still a new design, and kiwis opened that can of worms. Crying about being outsmarted sounds pretty sad.
@@kailaniandi Kiwis operated completely within the rules of the America's Cup, they were permitted to challenge at any time with any single mast designed boat no longer than 90 feet.
Sand Diego Yacht Club was arrogant, knowing full well the Kiwis were preparing a challenge and what it was going to be, but despite the Kiwis attempts to meet with them, Connor and his fat mates refused meetings including when the Kiwis visited the club in person.
This behaviour was typical of Connors and some in the US yachting world who for reasons only known to them thought they were the owners of the cup and could do as they please rather than follow the terms set out clearly in the Dead.. Australia 2 and Alan Bond had similar issues when they won it in '87. .. They also thought they could bully little old NZ and send them away to race at a time of their choosing in 3 or 4 years. But that's not the conditions of the dead, and NZ had geared everything up they weren't about to mothball the boat and disband their team and efforts, loose all their money just to restart all over again in 3 or 4 years time - that's totally unrealistic, could very well bankrupt people and leave many without jobs etc etc.
So despite the efforts of Kiwis to try and meet to discuss the terms of the challenge in a gentlemanly way as has been done for 150 years prior, they never met leaving no choice but to issue the formal challenge according to the dead. It wasn't a surprise, it's not like NZ was hiding on Mars or the Dark side of the moon and suddenly popped out of the shadows. The US knew exactly what they were doing, trialling , designing and wanting to talk about.
Following the challenge which the dead says the defenders must accept and then negotiate by mutual agreement the final design and event details (again the Kiwis gave US plenty of time to do this with them informally prior to issuing the challenge) the US refused to accept the challenge and still would not meet to discuss the design and event details. Refusing under the dead meant the trophy went to the challenger, but they wouldn't hand over the trophy either, NZ had no choice but to take it to court and either be awarded the trophy or force Connor to race. The US then designed a catamaran, because of a loop hole and the Kiwis protested that the dead specifically says a 'match race' of mutually agreed designs.. A catamaran vs a mon-hull does not represent a 'match race' and nor did they mutually agree. the court refused to rule and instead told them to race and sort it out afterwards, which is what they did..
So for the first time in 150 years a match race was not conducted and a multi-hulled boat was raced. Not very sporting considering NZ tried to sort it all out beforehand. Connor and his team then carried on like the arrogant wankers they are , so bad that their own country turned on them... they showed no humility, they lied , they were unprofessional and unsporting.... and you watched that video, you reckon the Kiwis cheated and you're happy and proud of the way the US and Connor acted ... you're on your lonesome there my man... not even you're own countryman agree with you ... just fat Denis and his mates at that moment in time agree with you. They manipulated a loop hole with regard to mulit-hulls that weren't even thought of or invented at the time the dead was written .. Why didn't the talk to the Kiwis beforehand, design their own mono-hull and race them? .... No one will forget what they did and how they carried on ... Even fat Dennis is ashamed of his antics and has since apologised ....
If you live by the sword you die by the sword. NZ used a loophole to challenge in a huge boat and a short time frame in the hope that USA could not build a similar boat in enough time to learn how to be competitive. Instead USA also used a loophole to defend in a catamaran. Then Kiwis complained because they had been beaten at their own game - exploiting loopholes !
USA was true to their old selves. Liars and cheats. Masters of deception. As they have been for all of their very short history.
Are you only aware of the deed of gift that defenders had to challenge and was written by the USA ?
When lawyers go sailing.
As others have said, this was an extremely one-sided account of a situation in which nobody covered themselves in glory. Fay used a legalistic, technical reading of the Deed of Gift to obliterate long-standing protocols of sporting behavior and essentially dictate the schedule and ground rules of the race from the Challenger position on short notice. His goal was an ambush, plain and simple. He won that initial legal battle because his read of the Deed of Gift was technically correct, even if unsporting. But then when Connors and the San Diego crew effectively said "Well fine, if we're going to be legalistic and technical about interpreting the Deed at the expense of precedent and the sporting spirit of the agreement, we're going to all the way to the logical extreme of that approach." The catamaran was unsporting. It was unfair. And Connors behaved like a prick. But none of it happens if not for Faye's effort to ambush the Cup to press his perceived advantage. In the end, everyone really lost, including the America's Cup as a whole. Everyone looked childish and foolish, and the event was permanently diminished after all the ridiculous bickering and litigation.
I wonder what would have happened if Connors had gone the other way and sailed a 12 meter against the big boat - losing in a mismatch.
Well put. Fay was a master of gaslighting.
I suspect that Fay thought he was clever with his plan of the ambushing. Then when it wasn't as clever as he thought, backfiring on him, he couldn't face the truth of the situation. Fay never allowed himself to just let go of his unsportsmanlike try, and he doubled down in a way that he prevented even his own mind from seeing his plan's true unsportsmanlike nature. I think he felt he was already entitled to the win after hatching his 'clever' challenge plan and then investing so much (ego and money) into his boat.
I see KZ1 most weeks, the turning point on my long run is under her bowsprit. Unfortunately the rig has been removed and she is not quite the imposing landmark she was.
Damn that's pretty sick not gonna lie. At least the hull is still on display instead of rotting away somewhere.
I hate how they took the rig off. When I first moved to nz when I was 6 we often visited KZ1 with her rig on multiple times and its a nostalgic memory I have
Time to scrap KZ1. We've all moved on.
Sadly, this cup marks the end of sailing being 'cool' in the US for the next generation. These days, all of the US Americas Cup teams are full of sailors from NZ and Australia.
While I was a baby at the time and completely unaware of sailing, from looking at the media of the day, I think the San Diego editions of the AC in the 90s were still broadly popular in the US-- they were the first story in the sports sections of newspapers and sometimes even on the front page overall, they had ESPN coverage, there were America's Cup jokes in MAD Magazine and on Aaron Sorkin's show "Sports Night", etc. *Offshore* sailing also got a surprising amount of coverage in Sports Illustrated in the 1990s during the extreme sports craze even though most competitors there were French or British. I think the real point it fell out of American popular consciousness was sometime in the 2000s.
I wondered why I lost interest in the America's Cup. Now I know .
That's because Sailing USA focused on the America's cup to the detriment of all other sailing events in the US. Where as Aus and NZ both have significant focus on their main domestic regattas as well as being among the first to embrace of the new global comp's that were deemed "inferior" by sailing USA.
Things have improved, but there's still too much focus on vanity projects like winning the Olympics instead of fortifying domestic US comps.
Cause Americans can't sail🤣
I don't really understand why cheating was so cool - because prior to Alan Bond taking the cup - the rules were meant to hamper nations smaller than US.
The rules regarding sail material meant that every other nation except US had horrible sails.
It's never been the same for me since the 12m. Cats and the winged boats are not most who sail can relate to.
I miss the days when you could tell when a team was ready to tack because those on the rail would flick their cigarette butts away all at the same time, LOL.
The bias is laughable. "They expected nothing less than integrity, sportsmanship and a fair match...", yet issued a challenge with their boat already built and tested, giving the defenders minimal time to respond in kind. He did not challenge in good faith and made the AC a lawyering circus. That is his legacy.
Did the defenders not know they were coming? Was it not a decision by the defenders to ignore the challenge and hope it went away?
Indeed.
Indeed, though I find it interesting to see the story from from the challengers perspective lol
A classic pot calling the kettle black (-8
@@randbarrett8706 The problem with the challenge was it gave the defenders only 1 year to design and build not only a new boat but a new class of boat (27m) that the challenger already built. It was a ridiculous challenge. For the past 50 years, 12m boats were used. If Fay had issued a challenge and stayed in 12m, there would have been grumbles but that would have been doable. Or if Fay had given the US 4 years to build a 27m boat, that would have been sporting. Fay was right that nothing in the rules said that the boat had to be 12m or how much time the defender could be given. So the US pulled a reverse Uno and used catamarans as nothing in the rules said the boat had to be single hull. Personally I view Fay's desperation to win the cup back as exploiting loopholes to win rather than a fair match.
There was a reference in the video to kiwi1 being the fastest time ever for a monohull so not sure Connors's reference to a slow boat means much.
After watching this video, i looked up the Gift of Deed and there is nothing that i can see to make the cat illegal.
Exactly. It was an appropriate response to an inappropriate challenge.
Michael Faye stopped others from challenging, cut the time between AC regattas, changed the boat to a design that gave his team a huge advantage over the holders and then cried foul when the rules were used to the Americans advantage. This whole challenge was a disgrace and although you might have concerns over some of the sportsmanship of previous teams, at least the competions were in 12s of the same type and open to all challengers with a time period that allowed designers and boat builders a fair go. The Sail GP series is the best sailing now, the AC is an expensive joke!
Sail GP exists becauase of the advancements in development by AC. AC's fun stuff. SGP is spectacular sailing.
When you challenge someone to a duel the challenged gets to pick the weapons. Sorry Michael you picked a fight and got out played 😂😂😂😂
Perfectly stated
GP is not match racing.
The four days of LV preliminary regatta of last week was better sailing than the last four years of SailGP
The simple fact is that for decades everyone understood what the rules were and how the cup was being contested. It was fair and it worked.
Fay choose to be a jerk and start playing games designing and building a new radical unheard of boat and then dropping a short notice challenge on San Diego knowing full well that because of the timing he had a massive advantage.
The US side forced to meet this challenge simply built a better more radical boat which, as was determined later, legal under the deed. Fay’s ego cost everyone involved untold millions of dollars and was in the end a waste of everyone’s time and seriously detrimental to the health of America’s cup racing. That waste of time and money and damage done to the Sport is his real legacy.
Well said. As a young sailor, I lost interest in the cup after this race. It became a bickering old men competition. Who wants to see that?
Más radical un catamarán? Ya estaba inventado, simplemente eligieron un barco que ganaba a un monocasco. Eso no es un diseño radical
I was still confounded and upset that the USA would be sailing a catamaran in the AC.
I went down to San Diego with hopes the Kiwis could miraculously beat Conner. My only consolation was to see the kiwis majestic monohull in action and what a beautiful sight she was!
I live in the past and of the days of the J Class beauties.
As a kiwi I was as caught up in this at the time, but in time I’ve come to appreciate that USA was just as entitled to do and act the way they did. The unintended consequence was the galvanisation of a generation to support Team NZ to bring the cup here. My fear is the betrayal of home town defence, the cornerstone of support, in pursuit of a bigger payoff will dull the fervour that could as easily disappear as it did with NZ soccer in the 80s
Is it fair to pick a fight, then complain when you lose? Fairest fighter wins. Can't change the rule,and win!
@@robert-fz3ku you are right nz should have waited. or at least at the bare minimum challenged in the well established 12meter rules. they threw the rule book out and expected USA to follow suit and design a build a whole new 90+ foot boat in a mater of months. what a pile of bull.
There's a Harvard Business School case about this. I suspect this could be shown in quite a few business school classes in the future
The Kiwis didn’t challenge in good faith and the Americans didn’t defend in good faith. That’s basically it.
Just a massive waste of time and money
Allowing a catamaran to race the AC was a terrible decision. I wish the AC was still blue water single hull yachts.
Please - any ship that isn't square rigged isn't a ship at all!
Right now its a fair challenge and pushes the absolute max out of the available technology. The current AC class of boats are incredible feats of maximum performance and ingenuity
@@miamisasquatch Sails are the devil's invention, true tradition of the seas is powered by oars!
Kiwis switched from Aluminum to Fiberglass and were like "doesnt say anything about building material in the rules" and won. Then American switched from 1 to 2 hulls and were like "doesnt say how many hulls in the rules" and won. Pushing technology by definition means doing different things. An alternative is to say in the stone age, saying bronze makes it not a fair fight.
Yea, life is not fair, this is a competition of boat technology.
It's a bit more complicated than that. In sailing you gave boat categories and it's not all about radically new design etc.
Yes and no. There have to be some definitions, otherwise theyd make a jet powered "sail" boat and finish the race in a quarter hour.
That being said, what the rules should be is arbitrary and subjective. I love catamarans, so i have no problem with them being used in races. But they are also fundamentally superior to monohulls and matching them together is like having men and women compete in sports.
if the rules had such the loophole, I am surprised someone else didn't exploit it earlier.
but it would have been more sporting to verbally bring to the table, before smugly building a boat for race day.
I wish Michael hadn’t caused the demise of the 12m class
got greedy
@vibratingstring Not sure what your point is; 12 Meters suck? They do not. A refutation point by point: (1) By 1988 or so when Fay was wreaking havoc, the Newport twelves had been relegated to charter boat racing of a rather low caliber, with charter guests as crew. No new twelve meter has been built since 1986, so the class has been severely diminished since its heyday. Blaming Fay is a reasonable proposition. (2) Though quite a bit smaller than their J boat predecessors, twelves are rather big and heavy, and campaigning one has always been a multi-million-dollar proposition. Calling them small and obsolete is a non sequitur. (3) They were always cutting edge. The Cup races 1958-1987 demonstrated the best (professional) sailors sailing the best designs available at the time. (4) Same point as before. Twelves were expensive to design, man, and sail. Lack of adequate funding sank many a campaign. The 12-meter class was a reasonable, prudent and highly successful choice given money constraints, yet they were large enough, graceful and picturesque enough to capture the hearts of many generations of sailors. Their demise as a Cup boat is severely lamented by many of us, like me, who sailed aboard them.
PS Did you forget to duck when Nefertiti's gybed? I'm sure Ted is sorry.
I am so glad they are gone
Why?
As fascinating as it was to come from boats in the 25-35 foot range to sail the 12M Rs, they were heavy to sail, not very responsive and because of the sheer mass and slow acceleration they put a lot of pressure on the rigging.
The 12M R's had missed the whole development that people like Bruce Farr/Paul Withing/Laurie Davidson and more were behind of light fast surfing boats.
While I did participate in one run where we were probably going at least 25 knots+ it was not made for that and parts kept breaking.
@@dap777754 By the 1980'ties they were definitely not the cutting edge but old-fashioned designs with massive limitations.
The fact that the New York Yacht had the rules that everything down to the materials used for the sails... had to be from the challenger country had the competition skewed for years - it was such bad sportsmanship.
12MR were definitely not modern yachts with the keels like they had been done 50 years earlier, and the hull shapes being pretty old as well.
The 1st americas cup race (1851), was held in England, and America has a far superior boat and was "unfairly" faster than anything else england had.
Are you mixing two different races/boats in your statement?
The original race around the Isle of Wight, was generously handed to the Americans in good sportsmanship, since they failed to round a marker buoy correctly.
The NYYC showed their lack of class over the next decades & denis connor continued that tradition. Thankfully Australia II broke them both.
For me, this was the end of the Americas Cup. I lost complete interest and I’ve only held more contempt for those players since then. I can’t relate to any of the boats in the last couple of decades but I love TP52’s, Comanche, Skorpios, the J Boat revival etc.. It’s all quite disappointing.
What was wrong with the IACC boats?
I love watching the J Boats. Seeing two of them heeled over on opposite tacks bearing down on each other is beauty, speed and courage all wrapped up in one package.
@@jameskiehm546 = Your comment was posted one year ago, and - seen in the light of the 2024 Louis Vuitton Cup (the AC races start tomorrow) - it seems unfair.
The LV 2024 races have been very interesting, particularly those of the final. The AC-75s are fascinating boats and exciting to watch, as soon as there is more than 8 kts or so of wind.
Can't wait to see if the AC37 regatta between ETNZ and Ineos Britannia shall be as much disputed!
Foiling, which began with the winged keel, now has turned the America's Cup into an on the water NASCAR race. Very exciting but totally different from the traditional racing that made the Cup the graceful spectacle that it was. The whole issue with the Big Boat vs The Cat sent the cup into an endless round of legal fighting from which it never recovered.
At its core, yacht racing, as it used to be called, is about bending and breaking rules and outspending the other guys whenever possible. It also is one of the few sports where hundreds if not more folks can be.."world champion each year. This just is a depiction of the essence of the sport at its highest levels
It all got a bit silly in 1988. Never liked Dennis Connor but the Kiwis had only themselves to blame for trying to be too clever.
Too say a Bruce Farr design not fast . Is laughable Bruce Farr one of the greatest designers ever. And that typical sportsmanship of Dennis
Fantastic videos! Please keep them coming
Thank you. Glad to hear you like them 😊
Building a new fast mega yacht in secret for a year or so and then showing up and demanding a race is hardly sporting. Faye got what he deserved when the SDYC responded in kind.
My view is that "The most bitter and fundamental fight in the history of the cup" should occur on the water, not in the courtroom.
Neither side were honorable. The New Zealanders started it. USA took up the challenge and finished it.
We used to drink w the crew and go on the cat when it was parked at the downtown rowing club.
I don't know why I watched this again...the most egregious case of whinging by a losing team (that tried to cheat to start with) ever. The Kiwi's said "no rules" then brought a knife to gun fight.
As far as I'm concerned, it was the judge's fault. She should have followed rule of precedent and told New Zealand to return three years later.
Connor and crew were guilty as charged for poor sportsmanship. But so was New Zealand. They had their boat already built and tested before they submitted their challenge. Then they insisted on having a race right away, giving their opponents little time to prepare.
They should have posted their challenge, along with the new boat type, then waited for the traditional timing of the race.
I think both sides cheated. And I think the judge should have thrown the matter out of her court.
If only both sides could have lost.
As despicable as I find Dennis and his team's attitude/way of responding to others - it typifies the American stereotype, they build th faster boat according to the rules. If one side decided that they'd use the letter of the law/rules to force the issue, they can't then get upset when the other side uses the letter of the rules as well, and wins with something faster. They decided the playground was tight interpretation of rules.
The kiwis started it in 84' with winged Keil !!!
@@frankesposito2182
You mean the Aussies with Australia 2
Starting with the very first race in 1851, competitors have been shaving the rules. America's victory in that first race was met with controversy because her owners did scandalous things like leave out the wine cellar, and china cupboards.
I have been an avid sailor since I was a child, mostly Cats..but I have owned and sailed 25-33-40 footers....I remember that I did not like Dennis Conner, and I have always been a Bruce Farr fan. My father could not believe the court system was tied up with such nonsense......my memory of it was this was a 40 footer race, and NZ showed up with a 90 foot boat...hence the Cat response. I don't know any sailor in America that thought the America's cup was suppose to be a multi hull race. To me, it should have stayed a 40 foot race..... These days the Mini 6.5s and the Vende are the must watch stuff.
18:15 The guy goes to join in on the high fives, but he was too slow 😟
He wasn’t too slow. The other dude is a dick and left him hanging.
The Deed of Gift is a nineteenth century document which has been redrafted twice. It' language is ambiguous in places and the drafting style is imprecise. Over time the meaning of several key words has changed, reflecting the etymology of language in the period between the execution of the third deed on 24th October 1887 and the NYSC's validation of the NZ challenge on 25th November 1987. The America's cup is a challenge cup and the 1988 Deed of Gift Match set the precedent that any hull configuration is acceptable under the Deed's terms provided the Deed's dimensional limitations are observed. The legal action between the Golden Gate Yacht Club (GGYC) and the Societe Nautique de Geneve further clarified the Deed in requiring a qualifying yacht Club to have run an annual regatta on the sea or an arm of the sea in the past as a condition precedent. it is insufficient that it has not yet held such an annual regatta bu plans to do so.
The SDYC could potentially have agreed terms to meet the Mercury Bay Boating Club in a similar boat at a time which was mutually agreeable, but they viewed the audacity of the Deed of Gift Challenge in such a way that the animosity made a agreed match an extreme improbability. Mediation by a party other than the NYSC might have improved the chances of a competitive match, but again the probability would have been low.
While the SDYC could have agreed to a similar boat, building a brand new boat class in less than 1 year's time was difficult if not impossible. 12m boats had been used for the past 50 years at that point. That soured the challenge and the US response. From my perspective, Fay stacked his challenge with conditions so that he could not lose. It would be like me challenging someone to a marathon tomorrow and in another country where I have been in that country training for months. Sure my challenger could technically meet the conditions but him/her not liking or agreeing to such terms and rejecting it is hardly surprising.
The Kiwis were responsible for stuffing the America's Cup, its never been the same
America had it absolutely rigged in their favour for years. Suck it up
Found the foolishly fragile american😂
How so, Ross?
This on shore fighting is something that is missed nowadays in the AC
.
The challenger isn't the one who determines the weapons. This was ridiculous from the start.
I love the idea what cat sailor is somehow responsible for the wake of motor boats....
When showing the damage at Southwestern yacht club, that's my father's Grand Banks 32 next to the broken concrete dock. Now im living on a Leopard 48 Cat in keywest
Geoff Willls designed that Catamaran
This all started with Australia having a winged Keil and then America had to top that !!!
Don't forget that the USA tried to have that keel declared illegal. So they were not in favour of innovation at that time. Of course now the boats used are unrecognisably different.
theres a huge difference between a winged keel on a 12m yacht and whatever the he11 kz1 was. and they wanted a race in less then a year? the cat was supposed to be a slap on the wrist so they could get back to 12m rules for 1992. a warning of what americas cup would become if they ditched the 12m rules.... then iacc ditched 12m rules... whops.
now look at those AC75s, they would tear up these boats.
The Kiwi's and Fey realized that racing true 12 meters, you couldn't beat Dennis Connor.
This was the end for the America's Cup. I was incensed at the Kiwis for breaking traditions and then at the SDYC for the further degradation of the whole thing into a legal fight off the water. And I felt at the time and still do that Dennis Conner, whatever his ability as a skipper - and he was a superb skipper, no question about it - is an arrogant ass.
@vibratingstring That ended in 1983 when Australia II beat Dennis Connor and Liberty and took the Cup to Perth. The wing keel was a technical innovation within the class rules and I always thought the Aussies beat the defender fair and square. Yeah the NYYC had established the format with 12-meter class boats from '58 on but they were no longer dictating the rules. Fay's challenge with the big boat was unsporting in that he tried to exploit loopholes in the Deed of Gift to his advantage, technically legal but nevertheless unfair. And then Dennis had to go and be an ass about the whole thing - a specialty of his.
@@michaelbaughman8524 So when your opponent is an asset within the letter of the law, you're supposed to take it up the ass and not show him to be a farce?
Connor was an ass. But make no mistake about it, Fay was the bigger ass. Rather than learning from a promising first AC campaign, he single handedly started a spat which should never have happened in the first place. Even as a Kiwi, Fay deserved the biting on the ass he got.
@michaelbaughman8524 I agree with your comment generally. But I think the initial response was intended in good humour. For a long time, the rules did favour the defender. That has changed and nowadays the race is almost unrecognisable from the 90's onwards.
@@michaelbaughman8524 Fair and square if the Australians designed the winged keel all by themselves, without help from the Dutch at the Netherlands towing tank -- where the boat was designed and tank tested. That's a big if, if you ask me. My understanding is that a Dutch understudy naval architect, who was there, had the distinct impression that the Dutch helped hatch the idea. He waited to come forward, as I recall. Which, if true, sorta puts Dennis' assholeness in (a somewhat diminished) perspective.
Fay changed the America's Cup for the worst. Compare the Cup of 1983 to the joke event today which few outside of NZ care about.
It's just a continuation of its history i.e mired in controversy & under handed tactics
As an American, I always want us to win the Americas Cup. However, I want it in an even playing field. Also, Conner showed zero class. To the Kiwis, not all Americans feel good about what happened.
Killed off the Americas Cup, which was pretty good for the layman up until then. The 1983 Liberty Vs Australia 2 was epic.
Fast forward to 2024 and America's boat has been knocked out of the challenge, Oh how Karma can be so sweet!!
My dad sat on the committee that defended the cup here lol
America was losing In one cup race, changed the rules in the middle of a race. I'm an American sailor. I never like whinny Denise
No idea what you are talking about. What race was that?
That kiwis ego ruined the cup. Everyone 'cheated', but at least they were similar boats. Building a plastic boat created an unfair advantage. Computer installation, was an unfair advantage. Kiwis were crying because they were still in the monohull box.
The 1988 America's Cup was the first hostile Deed of Gift challenge. End of story.
Don't talk about honor... For everyone out there who never heard of this, the KZ1 was built with the sole purpose of being so preposterously absurd (size,cost,crew,etc) that no one could mount a defense in time. AKA a sucker punch. Live by the sword die by the sword.
people with too much time and money
Rich People problems, geeeze. Shout out to the ICCT teams who developed the design that were scaled up.
Bring back the monohulls...Foiling multihulls should be developed and raced, just not in the America's Cup...
I AGREE 100 PERCENT !!! They should have a "CLASSIC AMERICAS CUP" with exact same boats !!! How can we ask them to sp this ???
I mean they r foiling monohull now
@@captaintoyota3171 True, I meant non-foiling monohulls...
I wish the Stars and Stripes would have just sailed circles around the whiners instead of sand bagging
You know it does depend. On a smallish lake in either light airs or very heavy wind and with short legs, a planning monohull like my international fireball tacks a lot quicker , points higher to windward and goes on the plane with no terminal speed in heavy wind than my 14ft Newcat. Sonits wrong to say all cats are quicker than all monohulls.
When Australia took the cup off the Americans that was it .
After that it became a real shit fight and it would never be the same again in all its glory.
To see all these old fellows from the New York Yacht Club in tears as the cup was thrown around by Bondi and the crew was precious and it would never be the same again.
This is when the New Zealand stuff up the America's cup .
losing a boat race to a country that doesnt have a lake or a sea. peak murica
Michael Fay was pretty arrogant from the outset... To expect to head to the opposite side of the world, ambush the San Diego YC with terms that NZ had one-sidedly crafted, set a race deadline 12 months after the defender had just won The Cup... They had it comin'!!
Sail races that have to be decided in courts were the only way the US team could keep the cup so long…. They cant even get in the finals now. The NZ team is the most underfunded but has the best brains and talent.
all of it is ridiculous. every little bit.
This video is utterly biased and clearly made by a Kiwi. The Kiwi challenge was a disgrace from the beginning. Everything was underhanded, conniving and unsportsmanlike.
If you can't win. CHEAT! And then when someone got one over your cheating. You'll yell CHEATING even louder.😂😢
9:25 the catamaran is obviously the better boat. Ok, the Americas cup is about who can make the best boat, within the rules. Rules just said max length, no minimum length.
I don't know. The whole thing might have been distasteful, but it seems to me something good came out of it in the end. Admision. Everyone here is admitting that Cat's are faster. They are certainly more exciting to watch when they race. For whatever reason, tradition, etc., the monohulls have been the staple of the wine glass clinking, caviar eating crowd forever. Let's be real. If you are going to race, you should use a race car. You will get far more interest in what you are doing. Monohulls have far more wetted surface and will always be slower. It sounds me like these boats should be raced as an exercise in historical reenactment. Which is fine. By the way, if history and culture is you main motivator, multihulls also have a history and culture too... Race a Trimirran or a Catamaran, they are faster, more fun to watch, and are far more of a race car. Don't race a station wagon.
It actually amazes me that it took practically 20 years more before everyone finally got together and thought "heyyy, these cats are fast and fun! Surely this will grow the sport". Sadly, for SailGP this is true but for the AC, there seems to be less and less teams each regatta. I really hope they find a way to reverse this trend.
@13:39 he has the whiney sarcastic tone of someone who knows exactly what they're doing while using plausible deniability. Act like a Champion ffs.
Just deserts for the kiwis to throw a challenge out with going through the process of challenging first. Anyway, once Australia won it in 83 the mystic and aurora was over,the Kiwis just buried it
What a complete joke the Americas Cup has been turned into by the Yanks and Kiwis !!
This Dennis guy is making my blood boil...
And everyone else's, certainly at the time.
Michael Fays' a-hole "stunt" single-handedly ruined 12m sailing forever.
I remember that it, I was proud with Michael Fay and Bruce Farr were successful a KZ1 design was bigger size in history 1900s AC's boats.
Until 2000s, we saw muilt-hull with foil went fast sometime lot crash & fell. It's difficuilt set up after fell. On 2019 our ETNZ and Italy were new design first "Foiling mono-hull" were first test been successfully is super faster, It's won't fell boat. Until now 2024, We saw more create boat like AC75 1/2 scales for Youth & Women race were success race and none crash. Good bye old technology (1800 to 2000) were slow speed of AC's yacht. From 2000 year toward, new technologies boat with foiling are much better high speed in low wind. So, Kiwi were proud ETNZ's design advance technologies and high performance AC boat are great winner than other countries.
This was a farce & for me the beginning of the end of my love of the America's Cup. That died completely after the 2007 series. I can't see it ever coming back.
beaker from the muppets at 9:03
So it was Dennis Conner’s fault they’re all sailing catamarans and stupid flying boats.
Does America always need to be involved in the 'Cup'. I mean like, could it be between say, NZ and the Aussies if they had the two fastest yachts and qualified?
It's a common question. The answer is no, America don't need to be in the Cup. They often are but several times including in the last Cup they didn't qualify.
Because of the name of the cup people often think that America must be involved but actually the Cup isn't named after the country but the first yacht to win the trophy. Check out this video for how the cup came to be- th-cam.com/video/hz-amnxfmiI/w-d-xo.html
@@FastForwardSailing Thanks for that. I gotta say though I lost interest since the cats came in. I was in California when we, Oz, won the cup in 83. Also in Perth for 87. Fantastic times for both.
@@garyritchie3556 Yeah there's certainly a big divide between fans which like and the cats and those that don't. It's not cats anymore but still foiling.
Must have been great being an Oz fan at that time!
@@FastForwardSailing Oh don't get me wrong, I love watching those foil cats race, amazing stuff. But the AC has lost the importance, besides I never know when it's on. Yes it was free drinks everywhere in 83 in Canada and US, and the party atmosphere in Perth in 87 was euphoric. When the racing was on in 87, with the number of boats on the water, you could literally walk across to Rottenest Island, 19km away. Loved it all.
@@garyritchie3556 Sounds awesome!
2 different class boats in the same race dumb from the start
Anyway of all the rules, it is ridiculous to race a DTM or BTC against a Formula 1 claiming they are both cars. Both great boats with skilled crews in different spheres (Cat’s are no sailboats☝🏻😉😁) . When i saw this i remember as a boy of 13 years, that my father shouted to the television some not nice words. Know i understand him and i agree… no matter what it was. Handful.
- its equally ridiculous to challenge a team you know is capable of building an F1 car to a race where the only technical requirement is the car being under 5meters long and expecting to win with said DTM car.
@@banaana1234 yes and no. When you talk about a DTM while you build a DTM and the opponent builds a F1, you can not go back. From that moment, the kiwis knew about Conner‘s boat, they had no time to construct and build a new. Connor is a typical, wide walking, chewinggum american. I would not want to sit with him in the same boat, sorry. Like a dog who roar one person and stay calm on a nother person. Mybe i‘m wrong, but my dog would roar to Connor.
way to go America, next time show up with motor speed boat
It would actually be interesting to know if they could have brought along a speed boat. The deed of gift design rules seem so lax that it might have even been possible ("no design requirements other than that the boat was to be 90 feet (27 m) or less at the waterline if it had one mast").
Play stupid games, lose stupid prizes. The kiwis should've followed the rules.
This whole thing seems so pointless. Making such a huge deal out of sailing. So many more important things happening in the world.
Dick Smith!
That's who he looks like.
Whole thing was a joke. America was never going to match race. Conner was sn arse and will always be remembered as that.
the Kiwi's FAFO.
Was this the last time Dennis won anything? He got smoked in 95 😂
At least anything America's Cup related. Buddy Melges helmed the US victory in 92
Yes, Connor actually used the Young America boat which he'd beaten in the qualifiers as he felt it was the better boat to challenge Black Magic.
This bloody Cup is still sucking money out of the NZ public!!! They can't even be bothered holding the challenge in NZ anymore - It's in Barcelona!! Rich Boys and their Toys - they can bugger off!
Team NZ don't receive any money from the NZ public. Clown.
Go USA!!! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
The yanks out of desperation to win tore up the "rulebook". A cat is not a yacht.
As a consequence, it's become an open class and they've only held the cup 40% of the time since then.
And new Zealands percentage?
Poke the bear
Marinas all over the world refute that absurd statement
Because the KIWIS started with the winged KEIL in 84 and cheated.....THEN you hlame the YANKS ??? ??? ???
FIRST OF ALL THE "WINGED KEIL DESIGN" IN 84 STARTED IT...WHY BLAME THE YANKS ??? THEY WANTED TO WIN LIKE THE 84 WINNERS !!! SO.....A TASTE OF THERE OWN MEDICINE CHANGED THE SPORT !!! IT WASNT THE YANKS FAULT BUT THE COMMITIES !!! !!! !!!
shame
shame shame usa
Love Kiwis, fruit and people, but they took a beautiful tradition and mucked it up. Lack of class, imo
Dumb move by NZ, they were going back in time to the era of the large J class boats and retarding instead of advancing sailboat design. A bitter pill to swallow but the NZ team was outmanoeuvred by team USA off the water. Can you imagine a half dozen or more challengers having to build those large boats?