I disagree a bit on ending of beast machines. If you completely ignore any continuation of beast machines then you have one of most happiest endings ever. And I love it with all my heart and soul.
Marvel G1 issues 75-80, issue 12 of Generation 2, and Mortal Combat from Armada have to be my favorite endings to a Transformers story ever. Marvel G1 climaxes with the best version of the united Transformers against Unicron and the greatest sacrifice of Optimus Prime then ends with a hopeful future for the Autobots. Then G2 is all out chaos with everyone dying and being horrifically maimed. Everyones characters are almost capped off, with Starscream becoming a better person through the Matrix and Megatron realizing the errors of his ways. And of course, the declaration of a new alliance (which hopefully lasts!) and the loose end of Liege Maximo. Armada, to me, is the perfect Transformers anniversary show. It contains references and nods to previous shows and toylines, ending with another great Unicron story and another alliance (which hopefully lasts!), but this time, Megatron and Optimus do not set aside their differences. Instead, they fight to the death and in my opinion, this is the greatest of their final battles. Optimus loses himself without the morality of the Matrix Of Leadership and absolutely destroys Megatron, which allows Unicron to feed off their hatred for each other and survive. Megatron realizes that one of them has to go for Unicron to be destroyed so he cuts himself loose from Optimus’s grip and plummets. "Light always has a reflection. Even in the afterlife, I will be your opposite." beautiful. Optimus decides that he isnt worthy to hold the Matrix after the ordeal and goes on a soul searching journey, beautiful again. Budiankian and Furmanist endings both have beautiful qualities to them, with G1 and G2 being hopeful and Armada being somewhat bittersweet. Hope this gushing was entertaining and/or helpful!
It's interesting how you compare Beast Machines and Animated, since they were both largely made by Marty Isenberg, who himself has his own style of Transformers stories being the conflict between the organic and technological, themes present in both Beast Machines and Animated
I think Return to Cybertron was Budiansky trying to write Furman (esque because he hadn't read Simon's stuff) and Infiltration was Furman trying to write Budiansky.
I was waiting for you to say something about TFP. Do you consider it a Budiansky or Furman series? It combined both extremely well because it has the human characters, but also heavy lore about the Primes, Unicron, and Orion Pax.
Prime and the Bayverse are tricky. Out of every continuity, the straddle the line the most. Personally, though, I’d say Budiansky. The sheer fact that the Transformers are hiding and having to adapt to living on Earth makes it that way. Predacons Rising, though, would be Furmanist.
fascinating video, and im definitely going to check out that article, but i have to say i could not agree less with your conclusions about optimus prime and lost light. i found the ending of optimus prime to be extremely bleak, with half the cast dead, everything they've been working to build with the council of worlds destroyed, and being trapped on a planet that doesn't want them. but while lost light has the bad ending, there is also the good ending in which everyone agrees to go on an endless adventure together, and besides that, it is stated that part of the condition for opening the matrixes is that you have to believe you can do it, which was the point of rodimus's encouraging speech, but megs clearly believes that despite his change and work in the functionist universe, he can never make up for what he did before (whether or not he's right is beside the point), and that prevents him from opening it, but rodimus lying to the court that he did open it shows that regardless of megatron's belief, rodimus still believes he was worthy. so overall i found the optimus prime to be much more cynical and bleak than lost light. this is just my interpretation, but im very passionate about these comics 😅
Cool stuff. Definitely will give the essay a read, too. And, boy, oh, boy, could the absolute disdain for the character be felt in IDW1 Arcee’s early stories, something the later ones bent over backwards to rectify. Also, it was pointed out, but MTMTE did relent somewhat in the end with the alternate Lost Light. Simpatico!
Ooh, that was an interesting article to read, and I enjoyed hearing you build off of it. Personally I guess I'd say I'm neutral between the two. Part of why I love Transformers so much is that I can find something that fits whatever tone and style I need at the time. Which can include some classic melodrama, a kooky grimdark, or big silly fun. I'd be excited to see more videos in this style from you! (I do feel like your recap of MTMTE and Cyberverse are a bit skewed though to make them sound more cynical than they are? The funeral timeline in MTMTE is pretty dour, but you only discussed the characters that were having a rough time without really touching on the ones that were doing okay like Nautica. Not to mention the timeline split where they *were* able to stick together and go off into the unknown as a unified crew that does give a much more optimistic concurrent ending. Or how so much of Cyberverse had been building to the characters being able to move past the war. Then the finale to Cyberverse showed everyone once-and-for-all breaking out of the cycle of war. The characters stick up for each other across the faction lines even after Tarn restarts the war. It literally ends on a group hug! Plus while Cybertron is still pretty wrecked, the planet isn't dead. The allspark is still there, and they were shown to be rebuilding the whole second half of season 3 through the end of the series. Cyberverse has a high bodycount but its ending is SUPER optimistic to me.)
You know, those are both incredibly fair. I did focus on the bad bits of MTMTE admittedly, and a lot of that comes down to the fact I was focusing on Megatron and Rodimus. I did bring up the other Lost Light in a recording, but I cut it because I got very rambley. Even then, I pointed out how, at least according to Nightbeat in an earlier issue, a duplicated Lost Light means the universe will balance out by destroying one of them. Cyberverse does end with them breaking the cycle. Even though I maintain that it feels like they implied more outside threats would be along eventually, I agree that’s not how it ended outright. In either case, I’ll admit my bias, and I should have done a far better job at limiting that. I stand by most of the points I made, but I could have done more to explain some points and lessen my focus on others.
this video just confused the hell out of me. I'm lost are you trying to say that all Transformers storytelling has been "Furman-esque" or "Budiansky-esque?" what about all the many different writers and storytellers? What about Michael Bay and the Bayverse or Derrick J. Wyatt and TFA or Beast Wars and Beast Machines?
I think the point isn't that no other writer has had a distinct style, more that transformers stories tend to fall into two broad categories archetypallu: ones that center more on the transformers as foils to mankind and ones about transformers by themselves one is more centered on character dynamics the other on world building budiansku and furman aren't the best or only people to write stories in either catgory just the ones to codify them In some cases it's less a binary and more a scale with most interpretations falling between the two types of narratives, beast wars os a distinct type of transformers story yes but not necessarily a new category of storytelling all ots own, its just on tge far end of that lore centric robotless side of the spectrum
Admittedly, I could have explained this a lot better. What I mean is that, very broadly speaking, those are the two major variations of Transformers writing. Things like Beast Wars and Machines are similar to Furman’s themes and focus on the Cybertronians. Animated, by way of staying more comedic and episodic, is more similar to Budiansky.
I would argue that while Beast Machines carries the imagery and set pieces of a Furman story, the overall message and conclusion of it is much more Budiansky. It's about the Maximals embracing change and a new age on Cybertron, as opposed to Megatron reducing it down to his own single perfect machine.
i feel like this is a vast oversimplification of transformers and story telling. its not really accurate either, last bot standing ends on a hopeful note. yes, the cybertronians may die out but the universe will heal, rodimus saved that one planet and gave them the chance to survive and evolve. think of how many other stories break this mold, especially the 86 movie. i enjoy your videos, but honestly this one feels like its dumbing down transformers into budiansky style stories having happy and upbeat themes, and furman style stories having sad and dreary themes when that really isnt the case
I think you’re on point. I’d still recommend Broadside’s essay, she was far more nuanced in her examples. Truth be told, I was trying to make it simpler more for accessibility. I agree that I took a very general stance on this, but the broad strokes hold true. Something I had recorded and cut was going into how Budiansky, by nature, wrote a more episodic comic with shorter arcs, while Furman was more serialized. I’d also stand by that, again generally speaking, that the Furman-style does make a story darker in tone by way of the serialization. Even Cyberverse, as lighthearted as it started, wound up with massive body counts and major characters dying. I could, and should, have been far more willing to go into deeper detail. That is a legitimate problem with this video. I got excited, and didn’t give this the same amount of research or polish as my other videos. At one point, it was just supposed to make people aware of the essay and it got out of hand quick 😂
My 2 favorite comics are the idw beast wars comics (i have all 17 issues), and I love the skybound comics and have started collecting the different energon universe volumes as they come out and get figures of the characters that appeard dead and/or alive in the comics from both autobots and decepticons. Till All Are One
@ronbondujon9690 it sucks it ended so quick thanks to idw loosing the rights, I wanted to see what the writers and artists had cooking up, but without idw loosing the license, than we wouldn't have gotten the best modern g1 story I've ever seen.
@ I don’t want to sound unappreciative, but I think it was time to move on to another talent pool. I’ll always love IDW, and I wish they could have ended on their terms, but they held the license for nearly twenty years. That’s not a bad run!
I disagree a bit on ending of beast machines. If you completely ignore any continuation of beast machines then you have one of most happiest endings ever. And I love it with all my heart and soul.
Marvel G1 issues 75-80, issue 12 of Generation 2, and Mortal Combat from Armada have to be my favorite endings to a Transformers story ever. Marvel G1 climaxes with the best version of the united Transformers against Unicron and the greatest sacrifice of Optimus Prime then ends with a hopeful future for the Autobots. Then G2 is all out chaos with everyone dying and being horrifically maimed. Everyones characters are almost capped off, with Starscream becoming a better person through the Matrix and Megatron realizing the errors of his ways. And of course, the declaration of a new alliance (which hopefully lasts!) and the loose end of Liege Maximo. Armada, to me, is the perfect Transformers anniversary show. It contains references and nods to previous shows and toylines, ending with another great Unicron story and another alliance (which hopefully lasts!), but this time, Megatron and Optimus do not set aside their differences. Instead, they fight to the death and in my opinion, this is the greatest of their final battles. Optimus loses himself without the morality of the Matrix Of Leadership and absolutely destroys Megatron, which allows Unicron to feed off their hatred for each other and survive. Megatron realizes that one of them has to go for Unicron to be destroyed so he cuts himself loose from Optimus’s grip and plummets. "Light always has a reflection. Even in the afterlife, I will be your opposite." beautiful. Optimus decides that he isnt worthy to hold the Matrix after the ordeal and goes on a soul searching journey, beautiful again.
Budiankian and Furmanist endings both have beautiful qualities to them, with G1 and G2 being hopeful and Armada being somewhat bittersweet. Hope this gushing was entertaining and/or helpful!
I adore dark grim fantasy, and as such Furman draws my attention more. But in life, I prefer to reflect Budiansky in how I live and act.
I agree. Both are amazing ways to tell the story when done well, just broad generalities.
It's interesting how you compare Beast Machines and Animated, since they were both largely made by Marty Isenberg, who himself has his own style of Transformers stories being the conflict between the organic and technological, themes present in both Beast Machines and Animated
Probaly of of my favorite videos of yours, keep up the good work!
Thanks, Enemy! It has issues, but I still enjoyed making it.
aw hell yeah, my favorite aquatic triple changer out there doin' story analysis. love to see it.
🤣 Real talk, Broadside’s article is a million times better than this video.
I think Return to Cybertron was Budiansky trying to write Furman (esque because he hadn't read Simon's stuff) and Infiltration was Furman trying to write Budiansky.
I was waiting for you to say something about TFP. Do you consider it a Budiansky or Furman series? It combined both extremely well because it has the human characters, but also heavy lore about the Primes, Unicron, and Orion Pax.
Prime and the Bayverse are tricky. Out of every continuity, the straddle the line the most. Personally, though, I’d say Budiansky. The sheer fact that the Transformers are hiding and having to adapt to living on Earth makes it that way. Predacons Rising, though, would be Furmanist.
fascinating video, and im definitely going to check out that article, but i have to say i could not agree less with your conclusions about optimus prime and lost light. i found the ending of optimus prime to be extremely bleak, with half the cast dead, everything they've been working to build with the council of worlds destroyed, and being trapped on a planet that doesn't want them.
but while lost light has the bad ending, there is also the good ending in which everyone agrees to go on an endless adventure together, and besides that, it is stated that part of the condition for opening the matrixes is that you have to believe you can do it, which was the point of rodimus's encouraging speech, but megs clearly believes that despite his change and work in the functionist universe, he can never make up for what he did before (whether or not he's right is beside the point), and that prevents him from opening it, but rodimus lying to the court that he did open it shows that regardless of megatron's belief, rodimus still believes he was worthy.
so overall i found the optimus prime to be much more cynical and bleak than lost light. this is just my interpretation, but im very passionate about these comics 😅
Cool stuff. Definitely will give the essay a read, too.
And, boy, oh, boy, could the absolute disdain for the character be felt in IDW1 Arcee’s early stories, something the later ones bent over backwards to rectify.
Also, it was pointed out, but MTMTE did relent somewhat in the end with the alternate Lost Light. Simpatico!
Barely even opened the essay page, and we’re already off to a good start just with the opening comic strip.
AND THEN HE TIES IN BIONICLE?! Bruh.
So, yeah, that was quite an eye-opening, mind-widening read. Thanks.
Ooh, that was an interesting article to read, and I enjoyed hearing you build off of it. Personally I guess I'd say I'm neutral between the two. Part of why I love Transformers so much is that I can find something that fits whatever tone and style I need at the time. Which can include some classic melodrama, a kooky grimdark, or big silly fun. I'd be excited to see more videos in this style from you!
(I do feel like your recap of MTMTE and Cyberverse are a bit skewed though to make them sound more cynical than they are? The funeral timeline in MTMTE is pretty dour, but you only discussed the characters that were having a rough time without really touching on the ones that were doing okay like Nautica. Not to mention the timeline split where they *were* able to stick together and go off into the unknown as a unified crew that does give a much more optimistic concurrent ending. Or how so much of Cyberverse had been building to the characters being able to move past the war. Then the finale to Cyberverse showed everyone once-and-for-all breaking out of the cycle of war. The characters stick up for each other across the faction lines even after Tarn restarts the war. It literally ends on a group hug! Plus while Cybertron is still pretty wrecked, the planet isn't dead. The allspark is still there, and they were shown to be rebuilding the whole second half of season 3 through the end of the series. Cyberverse has a high bodycount but its ending is SUPER optimistic to me.)
You know, those are both incredibly fair. I did focus on the bad bits of MTMTE admittedly, and a lot of that comes down to the fact I was focusing on Megatron and Rodimus. I did bring up the other Lost Light in a recording, but I cut it because I got very rambley. Even then, I pointed out how, at least according to Nightbeat in an earlier issue, a duplicated Lost Light means the universe will balance out by destroying one of them.
Cyberverse does end with them breaking the cycle. Even though I maintain that it feels like they implied more outside threats would be along eventually, I agree that’s not how it ended outright.
In either case, I’ll admit my bias, and I should have done a far better job at limiting that. I stand by most of the points I made, but I could have done more to explain some points and lessen my focus on others.
@@ronbondujon9690 Well, one copy of LL and co. went off for further adventures, while the other got dismantled. Universe balanced.
@@Pooltastik I suppose. The universe has a real dark sense of humor in that case, but it works!
Golden girls
What im saying
One of my favorite shows 😂
🤣
this video just confused the hell out of me. I'm lost
are you trying to say that all Transformers storytelling has been "Furman-esque" or "Budiansky-esque?" what about all the many different writers and storytellers? What about Michael Bay and the Bayverse or Derrick J. Wyatt and TFA or Beast Wars and Beast Machines?
I think the point isn't that no other writer has had a distinct style, more that transformers stories tend to fall into two broad categories archetypallu: ones that center more on the transformers as foils to mankind and ones about transformers by themselves one is more centered on character dynamics the other on world building budiansku and furman aren't the best or only people to write stories in either catgory just the ones to codify them
In some cases it's less a binary and more a scale with most interpretations falling between the two types of narratives, beast wars os a distinct type of transformers story yes but not necessarily a new category of storytelling all ots own, its just on tge far end of that lore centric robotless side of the spectrum
Admittedly, I could have explained this a lot better. What I mean is that, very broadly speaking, those are the two major variations of Transformers writing.
Things like Beast Wars and Machines are similar to Furman’s themes and focus on the Cybertronians. Animated, by way of staying more comedic and episodic, is more similar to Budiansky.
On point. I wish I had been so eloquent in my explanation.
I would argue that while Beast Machines carries the imagery and set pieces of a Furman story, the overall message and conclusion of it is much more Budiansky. It's about the Maximals embracing change and a new age on Cybertron, as opposed to Megatron reducing it down to his own single perfect machine.
i feel like this is a vast oversimplification of transformers and story telling. its not really accurate either, last bot standing ends on a hopeful note. yes, the cybertronians may die out but the universe will heal, rodimus saved that one planet and gave them the chance to survive and evolve. think of how many other stories break this mold, especially the 86 movie. i enjoy your videos, but honestly this one feels like its dumbing down transformers into budiansky style stories having happy and upbeat themes, and furman style stories having sad and dreary themes when that really isnt the case
I think you’re on point. I’d still recommend Broadside’s essay, she was far more nuanced in her examples. Truth be told, I was trying to make it simpler more for accessibility. I agree that I took a very general stance on this, but the broad strokes hold true. Something I had recorded and cut was going into how Budiansky, by nature, wrote a more episodic comic with shorter arcs, while Furman was more serialized.
I’d also stand by that, again generally speaking, that the Furman-style does make a story darker in tone by way of the serialization. Even Cyberverse, as lighthearted as it started, wound up with massive body counts and major characters dying.
I could, and should, have been far more willing to go into deeper detail. That is a legitimate problem with this video. I got excited, and didn’t give this the same amount of research or polish as my other videos. At one point, it was just supposed to make people aware of the essay and it got out of hand quick 😂
Hope you had a good day
Your coming up on your 1000th video what are you wanting to do for it?
My 2 favorite comics are the idw beast wars comics (i have all 17 issues), and I love the skybound comics and have started collecting the different energon universe volumes as they come out and get figures of the characters that appeard dead and/or alive in the comics from both autobots and decepticons. Till All Are One
Skybound’s been incredible so far, I just absolutely adore it. The IDW Beast Wars comic was also incredible. Made me love Razorclaw.
@ronbondujon9690 it sucks it ended so quick thanks to idw loosing the rights, I wanted to see what the writers and artists had cooking up, but without idw loosing the license, than we wouldn't have gotten the best modern g1 story I've ever seen.
@ I don’t want to sound unappreciative, but I think it was time to move on to another talent pool. I’ll always love IDW, and I wish they could have ended on their terms, but they held the license for nearly twenty years. That’s not a bad run!
Love the t-shirt
First! Great and creative video
Thanks, man!
You've been busy making multiple vids. :D
This one wasn’t quite up to snuff, but I had fun. Hopefully, there’ll be a few more next week!
dawg i went and read the essay before i finished the vid now what do i do
"My two dads"
I kid you not, that was the first thumbnail I made for this video 😂
I beg your pardon! Pat Lee reigns supreme!
How did that ongoing work out? JK, he had some good work.
When are we going to get that crossover?
Transformers X Golden Girls
Blanchewave
Sophia-Trion
Dorothytron
Roseimus Prime
Til all are one.
HASBRO! MAKE A GOLDEN GIRLS / TRANSFORMERS CROSSOVER, AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!
Huh interesting
Just a way of thinking of it!