ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- Here Greyjedi and Reti look back on some of the Star Wars Versus series match ups Greyjedi has covered in the past and give their thoughts on them today, as well as discuss the matchup of Lord Hoth Vs Darth Bane.
We hope you enjoy!
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Reti4 - Apologies for this not being the usual Avatar episode. Antoine and Turk were unavailable for recording and Greyjedi and I wanted to get this video out while the topic was still fresh. I hope you enjoy our discussion.
so from my understanding their actually isn't enough information about Lord Hoth to use him in versus match ups? unless its against someone that is more pure speculation then established fact types.
also hi. always nice to see yall talking about these thigns but id agree that their isn't Enough For Lord Hoth to really USE him for this. he is absolutely a contemporary of Lord Bane thats right but.. well. not enough FEATS. you need a little of both!
Reti4 - Ha, no worries friend, Greyjedi and I 100% fine with each other. We've had waaaaay more involved discussions than this. We're not about to let differing opinions, on even the important stuff let alone the merits of Hoth VS Bane, damage our friendship. Hell, it's practically built on this kind of discussion. We really weren't joking when we said we go on for eight hours at a time about stuff.
Feel free to make whatever statements you want, it doesn't bother us. Just keep things civil, as you have here, and all is well.
matt daly we both get passionate about various issues. I can understand that it's a different side to us (me in particular) than you may have seen before. But it is nothing new. I do like to argue. But only if I think I'm right. And I lose patience if I'm dealing with what is call a weak counter argument. But this wasn't a very heated debate at all judging by the average Callan and I have set in past discussions.
Finally, Greydaddy91 is back to put some order in da house! 😅
I’m a simple man, I see fanalysis, I click like.
Reti4 - We appreciate your confidence. I hope you enjoy(ed) the discussion.
I don’t mind speculative and subjective analysis so long as it is presented as such. When the subjective is presented as objective is when I have my gripes. That’s the issue I take with some of the match-ups here on TH-cam.
Ya’ll did great ... though I think the main points were solidified an hour in and it went on a bit long with circular arguments.
Antoine Bandele yeah...structure's a good thing. We could have used some.
@@GreyJedi91 It was super entertaining though!! :)
3 years late but have you considered a versus series rebuttal?
Honestly I'd love to see those 8 hour arguments lol XD The conversation was fascinating, this is one of my fav videos from you guys. I love thoughtful arguments that go in depth and there's not enough of that on youtube.
Reti4 - One day, perhaps.
@@Reti4 Don't worry. It honestly looked pretty exhausting, if interesting
I'm with Greyjedi here. If we were talking PoD Bane, Hoth has a shot at taking him. Beyond that, Hoth's single major feat and several accolades aren't substantive enough to counter what we *know* Bane can bring to the table.
I'm personally a little harsher because I struggle to grasp why Hoth would be capable of even defeating PoD Bane. Not saying its impossible, its far more likely than DOE Bane but I've never seen Hoth's flaws addressed, I've never seen the fact that he suffered his share of losses during the war addressed and I personally even question the notion of him being a calmly analytical combatant in general which is the impression reti, evan and Jensaraai seem to have.
I agree that Hoth has more than his fair share of flaws. However, for the sake of balanced argument, you do have to take into account that the numerous defeats Hoth and his Army of Light suffered over the course of the war demonstrate Hoth’s flaws as a battlefield tactician - flaws which, when speculating over the outcome of a one-on-one confrontation between two individuals, are not relevant.
This essentially boils down to Reti believing that based on Hoth's holistic portrayal he SHOULD have abilities comparable to the other high tiers of other eras but what Grey is saying is that, while it's fine to hold that opinion, the verdict shouldn't have been given to Hoth in the video because it wasn't based on objective evidence.
It seems to be a fundamental difference between the likes of Antoine/GreyJedi and the rest of the Council Forecast I've noticed. Personally, I greatly prefer GreyJedi and Antoine's way of tackling it because I feel it gets to the fundamental truth of things whilst Jen/Evan/Reti are taking greater creative licence that may ultimately be misleading.
William Henning There is merit to your statement regarding Reti, Jen, and Evan in that they do take a bit too much creative licence regarding their respectice matches at times (ex. Hoth v. Bane, Plagueis v. Kenobi), though I don't think that it rings true for ALL of their works. I believe Antoine has as well come to SOME questionable conclusions with a few of his matchups (Marek v. Skywalker), though I would agree that MOST of his research, analysis, and conclusions are sound and hold to fact over conjecture.
Fair enough. I agree it's not a general maxim that can be applied to all of their works but, broadly speaking, I believe it holds to be true.
I think Jen and Evan interpret data wrong, subconsciously based in bias. At least Reti is admitting he is in a whole different realm than an objective look at this stuff
Good point. Evan has clearly demonstrated a bias against Maul but he refuses to admit it.
William Henning Definitely. Plenty of characters that he is blatantly biased towards as well (Kenobi, Katarn, etc). The difference between Evan/Jen and Antoine/Grey is that the latter are willing to leave their favoritism at the door, and arent just in it to make fanfictions.
Lucien Draay vs An'ya Kuro is indeed amazing.
I think it is often understated that while the Rule of Two leads to more consistently powerful sith, Bane considered the biggest strengths of the new siths to be patience, cunning and manipulation. Even assuming that the Rule of Two works flawlessly I could still see Bane as better in a fight than many of his successors, I mean had Zannah killed him in their first duel it really would not have proven her stronger, but because his flaws put him in the situation he would still be considered the weaker sith.
Bane is the legendary Sith'ari, he is even mentioned to be one of Sidious most powerful predecessor in the Book of Sith, despite being the first in the line of Rule of Two sith, even disregarding feats I do not see Hoth as having an advantage, even when looking solely at the sort of character he is presented to be. I think if Hoth was intended to be a character in a similar vein to Jaina or Mace than more attention would have been drawn to his blade skills. IMO Raskta is more meant to be that sort of character in this era.
Bane is still relevant to different sith much later, like Plagueis and Krayt.
I know that Reti has basically conceded that based on the facts Matt is more likely right, but even just based on meta-insight I personally see Hoth as less likely to win, in my opinion the narrative could not go more out of it's way to point out how superior Bane is to the others of his era and how he became even stronger after that, without just blatantly jerking Bane off.
Sorry, I did not meant to crucify.
1) The Hoth vs Bane match up was NOT a viable idea to start with. Taking a character that has much speculation behind them and pitting them against a character that has sizable evidence to back their feats almost certainly opens the door to glaring problems.
2) Do you gentlemen agree with Antoine's Anakin Skywalker vs Galen Mark video? Just out of curiosity.
darren01ify
1. I agree. This is my ultimate point towards the end.
2. I have not seen it recently and do not recall it. I will let you know after I revisit it some time soon.
GreyJedi91
Anakin got the physical edge
Galen got the Force Edge
Anakin got the dueling edge
Galen won
Even at the time of the videos release I disagreed with it.
Anakin's physical and sabers edge would be more dramatic and his Force abilities would be able to deal with Galen's.
@@Spellshot693 The only force Edge Galen has is in the capacity to use force lightning, in the force Galen is sidious tier potential and Anakin is Chosen one potential tier.
So Anakin should´ve had the Force Edge ultimately
Sebas G I never said I agreed with him, I just pointed out what Antoine said. He’s stated before in a livestream that he doesn’t agree with the verdict anymore though
To make a case against Hoth's tactical superiority over Bane it's worth noting that Hoth wasn't consistently outsmarting and defeating the brotherhood of darkness on Ruusan, he did suffer his share of defeats and the state of the Army of Light towards the end of the campaign was just as dire as the Sith forces. The Army of Light also initially outnumbered Sith forces on Ruusan as pointed out by lord Kopecz in P.O.D by two to one. Granted the betrayal of Githany hurt the war effort but it doesn't change the fact that it was made possible by the morally correct but tactically unsound decision (presumably by Hoth) to divert limited resources into protecting the civilian population of Ruusan which had the practical ramification of spreading their lines thin. Kaan was also able to outmanoeuvre Hoth and establish a blockade around Ruusan that prevented the general from being able to get Jedi reinforcements on the ground. The Army of Light was only able to survive because they happened to be in Ruusan's rainy season and because of Bane's betrayal later on in the book which allowed Jedi reinforcements to land on the planet. So calling Hoth a tactical genius seems a bit extreme in my view, he's certainly intelligent, creative and skilled but he's not without his own limits and he has a number of personal flaws which limited his effectiveness. He clearly possesses a temper and overlooked the strengths of at least one of his subordinates namely Valenthyne Farfalla viewing him as a vain and prancing fool. When Farfalla returned to Ruusan with 300 Jedi Knights as reinforcements Hoth in a moment of anger told them to leave and return to Coruscant like "the mincing cowards you are". Hoth's friend Pernicar had just been murdered so his anger is understandable but it's a consistent part of his character that at times has clouded his judgement and if we're assuming his tactical insights have a chance of factoring into his approach to single combat then surely we have to assume that his temper has a similar chance as well. Hoth says himself that "I'm dying with every Knight… every death is a burning nail in my chest!" and "i need Jedi willing to fight the enemy with the same hatred they feel for us" to top this off during one of the battles he's in he's described as being unstoppable in his fury. To me this is an indication that he is a very emotional fighter not as calmly detached as Reti seems to be implying analysing every moment in a fight. Yes he's very experienced, yes he's versed in all seven forms of lightsaber combat and his demonstration against the mercenary shows he has an excellent degree of battlefield awareness but in my view it doesn't demonstrate the likelihood that in single combat he'd be calmly analysing his opponent to the degree implied looking for flaws he can exploit. Even if we ignored all the other overwhelming factors mentioned by greyjedi entirely (which we don't) without that tactical advantage i can't personally see how Hoth would have any hope of defeating even P.O.D Bane let alone Bane at the height of his power.
On a slightly separate but related point it's stated very clearly in rule of two that one of Hoth's advisers was Worror a noted master of battle meditation who is even stated to having been a key to victory in many battles making it at least a possibility that Hoth would have been bolstered in a number of his engagements by Worror's abilities. In my view this is more likely than the completely speculative idea that Hoth has sparred numerously with Raskta Lsu despite the fact that Hoth has never been demonstrated doing so, has never been noted as having spent time with Lsu prior to the war and wouldn't need to spar with her extensively given he's an experienced battle master in his own right with numerous other concerns prioritising his time. It certainly doesn't have one to one parity with Bane's training with Kasim, and i don't feel the need to explain why Kasim would have gained a familiarity with Bane's technique as well as other people have already raised that point more than adequately. The Lsu point is minor overall but i just wanted to add my own perception on it.
My final point just to add something on Bane's side is that Bane's duelling experience isn't simply limited to his life and death struggles which has often been implied in not only this discussion but a number of other videos. During his time as an apprentice at the Korriban academy Bane faced a number of other Sith students in the duelling ring such as Fohargh, winning many of his matches but losing others. It's often overlooked but each of these students were considered more powerful than the majority of Sith present on Ruusan fighting against the Army of Light and in this kind of setting Bane was given the opportunity to face many different opponents of many different species using different combat styles and tactics against him without the chance of being killed if he made a mistake. As has been noted before training experience is still valuable experience and Bane was given that opportunity he wasn't simply experienced against only Kasim with everything else being his own self training.
This has been a little longer than i'd intended and i'm running out of steam now but i'd like to finish up by stating i'm glad this video was made, i think the debate was interesting to listen to and despite not agreeing at all with Reti's stance or reasoning i do respect his willingness to debate this topic, it can't have been easy to present his side knowing he'd face a lot of backlash for it. Can't wait for the next Star Wars episode of Fanalysis from you all, you're all among my favourite channels on TH-cam.
A well crafted argument Sir
@@leseratte3546 thank you, nice to hear that
I love when greyjedi91 gets kinda mad at reti. We need more of these. Very funny and interesting
I just wanted to say that I recently reread Path of Destruction and it refers to the person Hoth put in stasis as a "minion of the sith" which in context of the book generally refers too non-force using soldiers
Supported by their companions use of vibroblades instead of sabers.
Austin Gott this was pointed out to Callan prior to the video being recorded. I read the passage to him. That's why he forecasts the fact that the singular feat he banked on so much may not be all it's cracked up to be before we even addressed it in this debate. I am of the firm opinion it was a mere mercenary in the employ of the sith. But even if it were a Sith acolyte or apprentice the feat doesn't mean nearly as much to me as it did to Callan and Evan.
GreyJedi is my hero. :)
William Henning for today perhaps. I'll give you opportunities to grow to hate me as time goes on I'm sure :)
Never! xd
William Henning Agreed
Reti4 - So say we all.
Who would win Lord Hoth vs Savage Opress?
WTF Reti? I mean, I don’t understand your argument at all but it got damn funny to watch towards the end. XD
Props to you for sticking to your guns to the tragic, bloody end. ;) It was entertaining to watch but GreyJedi made a much better case.
I also just want to make the point that no one seems to have brought up. While Bane was training with Kas’im and learning his style, his flow, his personal tactics and quirks and whatnot, all that, Kas’im was also learning the same about Bane by virtue of the exchange you get from training with someone. It’s a two way street. Kas’im has to have seen Bane fight as much or more than Bane has seen of him. I think there’s even an argument to be made for Kas’im having a greater understanding and more intimate familiarity with Bane’s style than Bane has with his, given Kas’im’s far greater experience and understanding of lightsaber combat on top of his experience teaching and molding students. He’s seen a lot of Bane as he began developing, so I speculate that Bane pressuring Kas’im as he did in their final duel speaks even higher of Bane as they’d both be so familiar and prepared for each other’s styles. And on an unrelated note, Bane is a powerhouse in the Force. By the time Bane’s spent all those years honing and refining his skill while training Zannah, I have to believe that he’s grown enough to handle Lord Hoth definitively in a one on one duel. Hoth’s still probably better on a battlefield in war though. Kind of want to see what Bane would have been like if he’d taken to the front lines for a few years.
I pointed this out in some of my comments as well but I'm glad somebody else noticed.
Storyman I took that as a given. The point in me underscoring Kas'im was that he has every advantage over bane...including the ones you listed, and yet Bane still was able to rise to the occasion. I guess I could have articulated that more clearly. I was tired from work and arguing a case I thought was obvious to begin with. I do apologize for any oversights on my part.
GreyJedi91 Hey, give yourself credit, I gained a lot of respect for you from how well you laid out the argument. Going into the vid I wasn’t convinced of Hoth’s superiority but I was a bit leery of Bane too and you convinced me that Bane would solidly take the victory.
I also think that people put too much blame and lowball Bane for an engineered weakness that his master built in every single one of the students of the academy to make sure to retain the upper hand.
This was supposed to be his ace under the sleeve, to actually confuse, shock, awe, and ultimately defeat anyone that dared to challenge him since all the students had for a fact dual wielding was a flawed form.
If anything this should be a feat to Bane's name. In a little more than a year he went from a lightsaber novice to actually defeat a battlemaster level duelist on even terms and to keep himself alive from a built hole in his technique repertoire specifically designed for his demise.
+Storyman No offence but I must respectfully disagree, at least partially. I mean yes, if two people spar against each other then obviously both will be familiar with how the other fights, but there's a key difference. In the novel it clearly states that Bane studied Kas'im carefully in order to fully analyse and memorise all of his moves. Kas'im did NOT do the same thing. Sure he'd have a basic familiarity but he hadn't memorised all of Bane's moves since Kas'im believed it was better to focus on improving one's own skills rather than studying those of others. So no, they were not "100% even" in that regard since that's not how Kas'im operates.
Great video i really enjoyed this, certainly more than the last video. I think you two should record more of your debates, GreyJedi you did a really great job explaining why Bane wins this, asking him about is Hoth above Sidious was a brilliant point i never would have thought of. Reti though i would criticise you for this opinion i do feel you generally did a good job explaining yourself given how little evidence you actually had to use. This discussion on Bane vs Hoth was 10x better than in the other recent video it was debated on this channel and in evans original video. Im still of the opinion that Bane in his prime (DOE) would stomp Hoth but i explained that in the last video. There are some points Reti brought up that i disagree with.
1) Yes Bane knows Kasims fighting style and techniques but Kasim knew bane as well almost certainly to a much greater extent. Bane knew nothing about lightsaber combat until Kasim started training him he learnt everything he knew about lightsaber combat (at least at the time they fought) from Kasim. Kasim however was already the master duellist before he'd even met bane and is unlikely to have improved much if at all. Path of destruction also states "parrying the first sequence Bane realised his former master had always been holding something in reserve... just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. *Only now he was seeing Kasims true ability*" Clearly in terms of familiarity with each other Kasim had the edge. Despite this Bane was still winning their duel until Kasim exploited the weakness he gave Bane in training.
2) Now of cause Hoth has more experience not just in combat overall but in fighting other force users. However what i will be arguing against is the advantage that gives. Kasim had been training students at the academy since the brotherhood began and was the greatest duellist in the brotherhood. All that time he had only been able to spar with students and the few other masters at the academy. If this was such a hindrance one of the many top sith in the brotherhood like Kaan or Koqecz would have overtaken Kasim in skill as they were regularly fighting jedi yet it wasn't even close Kaan knew despite Kasim being at the academy for years he was still the best. Sidious had very little if anytime to train with a saber or practice his force abilities yet not only mastered all seven lightsaber forms but he beat Yoda the most powerful Jedi there ever was until Luke and the most skilled lightsaber duellist the Jedi order had ever produced by ATOC. He also nearly beat Windu and only lost because of Vaapad which is like kryptonite for a sith like sidious. Revan had been imprisoned for 300 years and was if anything even more powerful when he came out of captivity. The examples go on. Yes it isn't accurate to irl martial artists but Star Wars never has been 100% accurate to real life especially with force users where their power and talent with the force is more important to a duel than skill with a saber.
3) I feel you are underselling the massive increase in Banes power between POD and DOE. Emperordmb made a great post on comicvine explaining the massive increase in power and capabilities fully back up with sources. The post is called "Darth Banes power" i would link it but i don't want my comment to be removed as spam. In a very brief summery which doesn't do the effort that went into the original post justice. Bane in ROT is stated be more powerful after having just two orbalisks attach themselves to him than he ever had been before, this includes when he performed a ritual with the leaders of the BOD and fed off their power to destroys large parts of the forests on Ruusan (an attack Hoth was defenceless against). As you know Bane went onto be completely covered in many orbalisks apart from over his head and hands. This would massively increase his pwer even more. Despite this Banes peak in terms of power is in DOE after he lost the orbalisks. He was much faster, stronger, more powerful knowledgeable and had far higher pain tolerance and greater willpower the later sidious thought to be a key factor in someones strength with the force. in short in temrs of power Bane at the end of POD < Bane feeding off the brotherhood < Bane with two orbalisks
How is he biased AGAINST Bane here???
Hahahaha. XD
It happens.
But no, I know banethesithari. Ironically, even though my picture is of Vader, and his, Bane, I've actually defended Bane more than he has. I can assure you it's not really bias in this case; he's just informed... which is sadly more than can be said of the likes of EvanNova and Reti. :/
I skimmed it over to check, and I couldn't find what you're referring to in saying, "how [banethesithari] underrates obi wan kenobi." :/
I agree with everything else you said though.
It both is and isn't correct. Kenobi has a notably strong ACTIVE force wall, but a weak PASSIVE one.
If Dooku could casually overpower Kenobi in the Force as he did in RotS while simultaneously fighting Anakin, someone like Bane, especially in his prime, should be able to do the same to Kenobi.
Whose video was that again, the Kenobi and Anakin vs. Bane and Zannah one?
Now I’ve chance to watch the full video here’s what I think. I wasn’t sure on who would win since most people stacking or defending one or the other takes place in an echo chamber with no strong opposing opinions. But as soon as this whole Lord Hoth could beat Bane argument was put to the test it crumbled under the pressure entirely. Because it’s so speculative it’s basically head canon. Like just cause we saw a guy throw a mercenary dude does not mean he’s anywhere close to Bane. Like yes he was a warrior for years, yes that does show he has a lotta discipline. But that’s his only combative feat we know nothing else beyond guesswork. So I’d say Bane takes this only on the feat that the whole argument for Hoth is so speculative it does not hold up at all and fell apart in minutes
I sense a great disturbance in the force and suddenly, millions of lives cried out in relief.
So I had full thought but I lost the orig comment again...crap.
Mad props to Reti4 for being able to debate with GreyJedi91 despite it being a topic about Darth Bane and (due the nature of Hoth) an argument that lacks a lot of substance, yet sticking with his guns to the bitter bloody end. But yeah, I stand with GreyJedi91 on this one that Bane wins. Especially since I realized that force stun feat wasn't done to a proper Sith Lord even. While Hoth could be the superior duelist (I assume he is) +tacitan, Bane's greater force power overcomes this to the point of it being a stomp.
Some of the lines here in this one were pure gold. "Hes been robbed", "Oh god, I'm going to get crucified", "You are going to be crucified"
This is an excellent debate guys probably one of the best u guys went rounds lol extremely enjoyable
Greyjedi convinced me in this match up, before this I thought Evan was right, but he truly proved Bane would be able to win this match up at least 6 out of 10 times
How do you think he only proved Bane wins 6/10 ? Reti had no evidence Hoth could even contend with Bane so how could Hoth beat Bane 40% of the time ?
No, I just wanted to give a low ball, if you want my honest thoughts it's at least 8/10 for Bane maybe higher
Mitch O'Brien but how do you think both wins even 1/10 when there is nothing to show he's even close to bane with the force or a lightsaber ?
Then listen to what Greyjedi says, plus weird shit happens like Grevious losing to Gungans and bull shit like that
Mitch O'Brien just because grey jedi says something doesn't mean it's fact. Sure he clearly won this debate but because he says hoth can contend doesn't mean it's true. Kasim was the sith blade master and was losing to pod bane who is nothing compared to bane in his prime.
Grievous lost to gungans because tarpels exploited grievous arrogance. He beat tarpels in a few seconds and stabbed him but then grievous let his guard down and tarpels stabbed grievous right before he died. Bane doesn't have some major weakness like that both can exploit. Banes weakness is sith sorcery something hoth obviously isn't skilled with
This made me want to reread the bane trilogy
Whoa boy! this was an interesting one. Thanks for this, i very much enjoyed the debate theme going on here for this
This maybe purely speculative and my own interpretation but, in Path of Destruction, Bane is described several times as fighting purely on the defensive which my mind tells me he is already practicing Form III.
Darth Bane soaked up knowledge, whether it was study of the Force or lightsaber techniques, like a sponge. He mastered the basic techniques (a description I translate to Form I) in a matter of weeks. Within the two years he was an apprentice at the academy he had mastered all of the sequences and forms of Djem So, baring in mind that other students had been there far longer, including the teacher's pet Sirak.
How many of Bane's opponents were defeated by his blade? Fohargh was killed by Bane's use of the Force; Sirak was killed in ambush set up by Githany (admittedly even Bane was caught by surprise as well) and Kas'im was killed by having the stones of the Rakatan temple collapse upon him.
I actually forgot my original reason for this comment and started ranting so I apologise.
Darth Bane's lightsaber styles as of PoD and the Seventh Battle of Ruusan:
Form I - the basic guards and techniques, mastered in several weeks
Form III - speculative, but he is seen taking on a purely defensive role most notably in his final confrontation with Kas'im on Rakata Prime
Form V - specifically Djem So, widely accepted as Bane's go to style recommended to him by Kas'im based on the Blademaster's observations and Bane's natural physical strength.
Dun Moch - not a lightsaber form but it's focus on dominating an opponent through psychological warfare goes hand in hand with a style like Djem So that focuses on physical domination of the opponent. Best demonstrated in his defeat of Sirak in the duelling ring.
PoD Bane is basically 1st Dan black belt, mastered all of the basics to the point they are integrated into muscle memory
RoT and DoE Bane is 3rd and 5th Dan black belts respectively, spending twenty years polishing his preferred Djem So style, while simultaneously studying and mastering over forms like Soresu and Juyo.
What I took away from the Bane Kas'im(spl?) fight, was that Kas'im had engineered in a weakness to dual sabers in a his students to give him an upper hand. I think it comes up when Kas'im changes styles, that he had shown bane every sequence that could be done with a saberstaff. It also says that kas'im he dissuaded students from the variant of the 4th form.
What I took from that duel was that Bane isn't very good at adapting and improvising when faced with something unfamiliar.
kronos48221 I agree with this. To me he engineered a weakness in his students so that he's have an ace up his sleeve in case the brotherhood ever went tits up. Smart plan really.
Wright805 most people aren't. I agree that Bane was caught off guard and unable to adapt very well. But it makes a lot of sense why that was the case on context. It foesnt mean Bane is poor at adapting on average no matter what the situation. I can and have argued against this in the past.
+GreyJedi91 That is certainly a good point but, with all respect, the thing that always sticks out to me is that as far as I know Bane has never won a duel with another Force-wielder that he wasn't already familiar with. All his successes are against foes he'd painstakingly studied beforehand (Sirak, Kas'im etc.) The only exception was the Big Brawl in Rule of Two which was due to Bane having a stacked deck due to his orbalisks, and even that ended with him getting fried (i.e. not a clean-cut win).
Forgive the length of this, but this is an issue I argue a lot because I think a lof of people view Bane a bit narrowly. I'm not saying you're completely wrong. But I do think you, and everyone who has made this point are assuming this to be a bigger weakness than it is. Chiefly due to lack of information. For one thing, Bane was stated to win far more often than he lost in the dueling ring on Korriban. So that's one thing people often omit from this line of discussion. You're correct that he has limited victories under his belt against known or notable opponents he wasn't already familiar with (Sirak, Bane, Zannah etc.) but he has not had many opportunities to fight anybody else. This is often assumed to be a weakness in itself because of the inferred lack of experience he has a result of this. But just the same as you can say this means he must need to study his opponents to win against them, I can say, that was only the case while he was a student at the academy and we have no way of knowing if that limitation carried on into his later years. Both arguments are an assumption. And, if one wants to be fair, both sides of that coin need to be considered.
Where the matter of the duel on Tython is concerned, yes, Bane had a cheat in the form of his Orbalisk armor. Evan even stated in the prior discussion video without any doubt that Bane would have died without the armor if he were facing Raskta without it. Now this is probably true in the context of that fight. But only because the Jedi had a number of benefits as well. I'd hardly say the factors shake out to Bane having a stacked deck. The Jedi had the numbers on their side and battle meditation in their favor and don't forget that Battle Meditation typically keeps your allies UP and your opponents DOWN meaning it's possible and maybe even likely that the Sith weren't fighting at their absolute peaks. It was 5 against 2. If Bane (no orbalisks) would have faced Raskta on that occasion, yeah, he'd have probably lost because she had help. If they'd faced each other in open combat, the fact she's a superior duelist wouldn't matter. He'd have changed his tactics from trying to beat her with the blade to killing her with the Force.
Bane was stated by Kas'im to have transcended the need to study lightsaber sequences while still a student at the academy. He was no longer drilling himself to use the various Katas and techniques inherent to his chosen forms. He learned to allow the Force to guide his actions and the Dark Side to drive his performance. That last point is a big one that I believe a lot of people, including my friends, fail to give him due credit for. Consider how this would have developed by the time he was a Sith Master by which point he also held great skill in 3 highly diverse forms (Soresu, Djem So, Juyo) and experience against a master of Ataru (Kas'im, though in reality of course Kas'im knew every form), a high level specialist in Juyo (Sirak), a capable practitioner of Makashi (Fohargh) had survived a confrontation with a Jedi Weapons Master acquainted with every form (even if he should have lost to her, this still points to an experience gain) who had help from Farfalla (probable Makashi specialist/master) and Johun (NIman...but who cares, Johun sucked) and of course experience training, dueling against, and technically defeating (in the realm of saber combat) a master Soresu stylist...Zannah. He isn't somebody enslaved by rote responses. He is, by virtue of training AND his pure power in the Force, astonishingly effective and well equipped to deal with most situations.
All this to say...other than Fohargh, the Huntress's crew of Mercs (which he lost against due to her use of Force Suppression) and Hetton and his squad, Bane only ever fought elite swordsmen or his sorceress Sith Apprentice. When you're considering someone who has only faced such highly ranked enemies, or beings of such great power in the Force, I believe it makes much more sense to take a harder look at general performance level with more scrutiny than a simple victory/body count.
GreyJedi's Obi-Wan and Mace vs. Bane and Zannah video is still awesome. Even if you yourself don't feel too impressed with it, many people, including me, were and still are.
I'm really enjoying all these videos you guys are putting out. Open discussions on vs series and reviews. I find it very interesting and entertaining.
Pretty much every video uploaded by all 5 of you I enjoy. :D
I agree with GreyJedi with his points on Hoth vs Bane. The main problem with the fight is Hoth is mostly speculation of what he can and can’t do. Where as Darth Bane has feats that can be pointed out with events. In this case everyone is playing defense and attacking bane feats but not giving any for Hoth. Offense wins, not defense. When your only defense for Hoth is to attack banes feats with circumstance rather than countering them with Hoth’s feats tells me that bane would mostly likely win this match up because we know what bane can do, Hoth is guess work
I'm surprised the Vader vs Yoda stuff wasn't brought up in this video or the last one. Ya know ... cause of Antoine's super thorough rebuttal and all. Doesn't even seem like Jensaarai has given any comment to it.
Omnitool No point honestly. And to me Vader vs Yoda isn't as big of a mismatch as Plagueis vs Kenobi. Especially when considering Vader is atleast a tier or two below Yoda. However there is a massive skillgap between Plagueis and Kenobi,
Jensaarai has always had a different perspective on Yoda, ever since like 2012 when he uploaded his "why Yoda isn't a good duelist" video. Nothings going to change his opinion.
there isn't a skill gap between Kenobi and Plagueius but there is a massive power gap for sure
Omnitool it bears mentioning that I've known Connor for a long time now. 6 or 7 years at least. His views on Yoda and the fact that I do not agree with them are such an old matter that it didn't occur to me to speak on that. Also, I think Antoine was as thorough as can be on that one. If the question is why is Connor silent on the matter? That's sort of just what happens. If you watched the last episode Reti argues against Evan and Connor on the matter of Plagueis vs Kenobi. At some point Connor says the whole business is just one of those "Fair enough...but I disagree" moments. That's typical on our debates. That result is not so different from what just occurred between Reti and I in this video. I don't care to change their minds personally. I, and I think Antoine only call attention to these sorts of matters because we want our viewers to think for themselves and decide what the evidence really points to. Not just take our opinions as the truth.
Well said, GreyJedi, well said.
I mean, if it was PoD Bane then Hoth could win, if we give him the position he should have according to his accolades and battlefield feats, as well as considering PoD Bane's shortcomings, but ROT Bane onwards just stomp him.
I think the problem is that EvanNova should have focused on a plausible what-if regarding Bane vs Hoth: they fight on Ruusan, then there's a good argument to be made for Hoth, and i think Reti here was making a good argument for that iteration of the character when mentioning how adjusted he was to Kas'im and the circumstances surrounding Bane's victory there, basically Bane's shortcomings as a duelist back then, yet that gets completely discarded because they were talking aboud DoE Bane, which is ridiculous, as DoW and Hoth are not comparable at all.
Simply put: It was a bad choice to try to make this a fair fight between DoW Bane and Hoth, it whould have been PoD, both for it to be a more even match, therefore a Hoth victory could have been plausible given what we know, and for the little fun detail of having it be something that could actually happen in the story.
To be fair verses series use a lot of speculation, I like Antione versus cause his versus series are not meant to be this character will always win it's more who will win in most scenarios, or who's most likely to win in a fair fight.
It looks like Matt's higher force power level rag dolled Reti
Reti4 - We don't consider him the Grandmaster of our little group for nothing.
Reti really should have speculated that he was more powerful then he'd be able to beat GreyJedi
banethesithari damn...XD
Reti4 - I'll take it. I can only hope I demonstrate better skill for debate with the next topic.
+banethesithari The savagery of your comment is amazing. 10/10
I almost want a full council debate on the the old Sidious is not invincible video. It kind of blows Antoine and GreyJedi weren't there to debate that point, and it seemed like a good bit of an echo chamber because everyone there agreed about Sidious not being that powerful.
I’d love that _very_ much.
So would I. Simply for the reason that while *yes* it *did* bring a different opinion to light about Sidious' power in both the Force, and in lightsaber technique and martial arts, I feel as if he was robbed in a similar fashion to what GreyJedi talks about with Bane in this video. This also is not simply because of my favoritism towards Sidious, but I think that there was either a misinterpretation of source material, or a speculation or stretching of truth when it came to what the source material provides in regard to his power. This is also true in terms of who could contend with Sidious. I do not think that a lot of the people that the council talked about could actually contend with him in any capacity. I feel Obi Wan, Ti, and Plo Koon would have met similar fates as Saesee, Kit, and Kolar. Even *if* they had put up a bit more of a fight, I don't feel that he would just "slam himself into a brick wall" as the council made it seem. Also, while I am a Darth Krayt fanboy, I don't think that he could contend in either martial arts or force abilities (the dark transfer ability wouldn't be a large factor if sidious could consistently defeat him, and in any case, the ability to repeatedly resurrect yourself (speculation on my part, as he does it with Cade Skywalker and we don't see him do it to himself more than once) wouldn't matter in a fight if Sidious could consistently defeat him. I also feel as if the opposing viewpoint wasn't addressed properly. Don't get me wrong, I love a majority of the content that this podcast and each of the council members puts out in their own time, but I feel that video in particular was lacking in several areas, and it'd be an interesting debate having you and GreyJedi along for.
This would be good to see. It's always good to see these sort of passionate yet respectful debates. Would love to see more.
I’m glad grey’s favorite video of his is also mine. That video got me really into Star Wars and Anya kuro.
Fanalysis Crew,
Oh boy, long video...
I'm going to keep making these long comments, because I really enjoy this content and it leaves me with a lot to say.
This is a summary of what I said on the last video
What force ability does Bane have that would end the fight? Magnitude and lethality. It's what decided the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Bane probably loses the lightsaber duel, but then the Force Powers come out, and Bane brings to the table more than anything Hoth has ever dealt with before, and he *Just. Doesn't. Have It.* Bane is much more powerful than he was in POD when Kas'im was able to resist his force push, and I think the battle on Tython conclusively proves that at his peak, no one can just tank his powers, they have to actively deflect/resist them, and that will beat Hoth down over time.
Edit: I think I got both your underlying points:
Firstly-That a character with fewer feats *should* be able to defeat a more prominently featured but less powerful/skilled opponents if we extrapolate sufficiently. Extreme example for the sake of argument: Ahsoka has done way more onscreen/page, but theirs no way she beats Oppo Rancisis, someone with one major appearance, but we know he's a Jedi Council Master, so extrapolate. Rebuttal: You can't take extrapolation too far though as the basis for your argument. Don't make a complicated argument that Oppo can beat Obi-Wan, a character he might be more powerful than given your extrapolation. Even if you personally believe Oppo *should* take it, the evidence provided by sources give Obi-Wan the edge, so he wins.
Secondly- Tactical advantage can make up for skill/power disadvantage. You guys got hung up on this but its a fairly simple dynamic. Dooku beats Anakin until the fight on the Invisible Hand. Rebuttal: But eventually, it just doesn't bridge the gap. Tholme can't beat Sora Bulq. Bane won't be making mistakes that Hoth can easily exploit, and Hoth looks like a dedicated power duellist like Bane (obviously different applications, but the parrallel is there), so he doesn't have the specialisation/ Rock-Paper-Scissors advantage. So to mirror how Reti was arguing, how's Hoth going to use the Tactical and experience advantage to beat Bane before the Force power edge becomes to overwhelming? Mental manipulation? He doesn't know Bane and the holes in his psyche aren't there. Orbital strike or call in allies? Not applicable, its a vs duel. Drop a building on him or use unexpected melee strikes? Bane doesn't care, he'll live then retaliate with the same thing but with more power. Ambush or clever use of Force powers? Bane'll see it coming, he's fairly cunning when he doesn't have orbalisk armour. Unexpected use of lightsaber forms? Lets run through it: change lightsaber type- Hoth only carries a single standard blade. Shii-cho won't help. Makashi might, but Bane is familiar with precision based duelling for sure, from training with Zannah and at the Academy. He's no stranger to Ataru, he taught Soresu to Zannah, has Mastered Djem So, Niman's advantages have been amply covered above, and Juyo is likely the primary form of both Kas'im and Sirak. The only form advantage would be Vaapad, but that hasn't been invented yet (also is the reason I think the Mace comparison is invalid. Without Vaapad, Mace loses to Palpatine's greater magnitude).
To but it bluntly, even with all the Headcanon and advantages and benefit of the doubt we can justify giving to Hoth, what is he bringing to the table that can justify even giving him a 50/50 shot against Bane, let alone beating him?
I still think Kit fitso would still be a good challenge for Plo Koon.
Yeah, but Plo Koon is quite a bit more skilled and his style is more well rounded. I think Kit Fisto might take the offensive, but Plo Koon would defend and overwhelm or dissect Kits defense.
An idea for Reti to talk in-depth about tactics: Do a gauntlet-style video where another member(s) of the group challenge Reti to choose tactically ideal Jedi kill teams for various Sith Lords. Reti gets to choose one combatant of equal skill, one character one tier below, and two characters two tiers below, whose tactics he feels best stack up against the threats the Sith Lord presents. To give an example, to bring down Exar Kun I might choose Satele Shan, Shaak Ti, Eeth Koth and Tholme-an unbelievably heavy hitter with the Force to keep him distracted, and three very cerebral fighters to pick apart any tiny openings he shows as a result. Obviously Reti’s approach would probably be different but the video would be so much fun.
+Evan I don't even think you need Koth. Shan on support with battle meditation, Shak engage him in lightsaber combat, Tholme sneaks in to assassinate.
True--my only caveat is that I want to have a backup for Tholme, because if Kun catches sight of him too early he's dead. Tholme is only viable in this match because he isn't noticed by Exar, and if he is, he WILL die quickly and painfully. Koth is a two-part insurance policy--firstly, he can aid Ti and keep up the pressure on Kun, and secondly, if Tholme gets taken out early, Koth stands a decent chance at finding a similar way to take Exar out. Ti isn't going to be able to do that--in terms of the blade, that's where Kun's focus is going to be.
I will say, though, I wouldn't have Satele doing Battle Meditation. Of course this is just a little tactical nitpick and I definitely see the power of having her there, but for myself, I'd want her getting her hands dirty and taking point. Shaak, and to an extent Eeth, can keep up in their own right, but she's the only one of the four whose baseline should make Exar truly worried. I know if I were Kun and I had Shan blasting me with the Force, plus two extremely skilled Jedi exploiting every opening I present, I'd be far too busy shitting myself to realize Tholme was sneaking up on me too.
+Evan True about Tholme.
As for Shan, I def see where you are coming from but considering battle meditation is amping your allies while lowering your opponents, I think the net benefit outweights blasting Kun to death with force abilities.
True--I could see her equalizing Kun and Ti in that regard if she's lucky. But even still, the math of Amped Ti+Amped Koth+Amped Tholme doesn't seem, to me, like it would equal Shan+Ti+Koth+Tholme, all baseline. I could easily be wrong in that regard though.
Just out of curiosity, how would you put a kill team together for Kun? I'm curious as to the other combinations that could be viable.
This may be the first time I've ever heard GreyJedi raise his voice. It's honestly surreal. XD
cloudftw113 sorry if it's weird. What you see in my videos and our other podcast discussions is pretty much what I'm really like. This was a topic that touched a nerve for me though.
Being passionate about a topic is no bad thing and it was an interesting discussion to watch
Random question. If Jaina Solo was the Mace Windu of her era, and Kyle Katarn was like the Count Dooku, who was the Obi Wan of the New Jedi Order?
Mara Jade?
I'd say Corran Horn, though the comparison isn't exactly direct.
Reti4 - Corran Horn. They're not directly equivalent, but that's not what we mean with the era comparisons, we're just talking about the fits in an overall sense.
Would you ever consider pitting the characters against each other in a full versus? Like Mace and Dooku Vs Jaina and Kyle?
Probably Corran
Winner of the debate and changer of the outcome. Greyjedi91. Darth bane is the true winner.
Was there ever any doubt
I’ve watched this vid multiple times now (just cause I love this discussion) but it’s clear who is right on this matchup! The reason Bane wins is because in simple terms he was already at a lvl to contend with Hoth in PoD and he only improves by the time of DoE. But if we’re being honest Evan shouldn’t have made a vid with Hoth because there isn’t enough to him (feat wise) for versus matchup!
Regardless of who I think is correct in this argument, I absolutely love the fact that Star Wars has the ability to be the core of such debate.
I realize that any fictional work with a large and dedicated fanbase can generate debate... but still! It's just amazing to me.
Love listening to you guys. :)
Bro Greyjedi coming in with the TH-cam BloodSports here hahaha You were on fire here!
Yeah, pretty much. Basically this is facts vs characterization. Facts should always be held over accolades or personal speculation of a specific character. To be honest, speculation has next to no value concerning characters with such little information about them. RIP Callan (I hope I spelt that right). At least you said that you wouldn’t make the video.
Tanner Lowrie so you've changed your mind on bane Vs hoth then ?
banethesithari I never said Hoth would win. I just didn’t think you or Sandwich were giving him any credit.
Tanner Lowrie you said they were totally right about bane Vs hoth. We explained why bane outclasses hoth and you have no counter or evidence hoth can contend with bane
banethesithari no. I said they were right about Bane’s lack of experience and proceeded to name every encounter Bane had in his life since he became a Sith. No where in that comment chain did I ever say Hoth would win.
Yes, there is no evidence that Hoth would win, or even contend, as Matt stated. However, this is where I’m gonna have to go a little Reti and claim that Hoth should be able to contend based on his position as battlemaster (from his mid-twenties) and just the fact that he’s the leader of the Army of Light, which should mean that he’s the most most powerful, skilled, and tactical member of the Army of Light, even though it’s a very weak argument.
Tanner Lowrie you never specified that you just meant with regards to banes experience. You just said they were right about bane and then listed banes fights. I point I countered by bringing up how little experience sidious had compared to Fisto, Finn and kolar.
Hoth being a battlemaster doesn't mean he's close to prime bane. As I said on the other video to you "You can argue Hoth was more skilled with a blade than Bane because he was a battle master but the argument doesn't amount to much given how he compared to Kasim. Banes defence was described as "impenatrable" against Kas'im who was not only the most skilled duelist in the brotherhood but an absolute master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat, mastering all seven of them in a few years, and spending decades perfecting each and every move and sequence of the seven forms of lightsaber combat. Kas'im had elevated his skill in every single form of lightsaber combat far beyond the level of mastery, yet Bane was beating Kasim in their duel until Kasim exploited the weakness he put in Banes technique an advantage Hoth doesn't have. The only reason Kasim had any advantage at all against Bane was because he purposely put a major weakness in Banes technique until then Kasim was losing badly.
Kasim is clearly a superior duellist to Hoth there is no credible counter argument to that and we know POD Bane > Kasim in a duel is you exclude the weakness kasim gave bane."
I also brought up that the jedi don't follow whoever is most powerful like sith. Hoth was a tactical genius and skilled with being a battlemaster so even if he was barely in the top 10 jedi in terms power at the time it's still reasonable that he would lead the army of light. No modern day army is lead by the best soldier it's ussually someone who's proved themself to be a experienced and skilled tactician
Reti 4: here are 4 questions that I love if you answered:
1. While it's known the you hate the new sequel trilogy so far. Would you say that TLJ and TFA are bad from a standpoint of it just as films with no conection star wars. And why if good or bad?
2. will you all review Solo A Star Wars Story when it comes out?
3.After TLJ do plan to watch the new star wars films in the future?
4. What are your thoughts on the Ben Kanobi VS Maul duel from rebels? If you didn't see it just search it on youtube you'll find it!
1. Yes. Bad acting, choreography, and plotholes. Visuals make a film beautiful but putting gold on shit doesn’t change the fact that it is shit.
I completely side with greyjedi91 on this one but I think reti did a good job of attempting to defend his perspective.
Reti4 - Thanks very much. I was expecting a lot more anger than I'm getting from this comment section thus far. I appreciate the tone of people's responses.
Fanalysis it's kind of a breath of fresh air to be honest considering how much vitriol is in the star wars fandom these days
@@Reti4 I think what reti was trying to expalin the entire timeand didnt quite get across, that you cannot expect in how many ways hoth can be praPRAED TO ANSWER BACK TO BANES ATTACKS.
The argument between GreyJedi and Reti4 in this is brutal. Grey absolutely reigns supreme as a debater among these Versus Series folks.
Reti4 - Worth noting in my defense that we have yet to discuss a subject I am particularly passionate about in a debate. Also, it's always 02:00-06:00 on my side of the pond when we record these, so my brain isn't firing on quite as many cylinders as it could be.
Fanalysis This could all be resolved if the writers put more background information on Hoth
@@MyDouble to be fair if there was more factual information on Hoth half of this debate would have never existed to begin with
Having watched and enjoyed the whole video I still think you shouldn't have gone into such depth and at the same time it would've been a shame to not have seen this then. Hoth's skill level is so damn speculative that I can understand the struggle to defend his side and the struggle to follow and understand said defence.
___
Bane's level is here ___ I
I Hoth's level is somewhere around here (or it could be, so damn speculative)
___I
This is just a simplification for the problem, we know Hoth could contend with Bane but we don't know enough to assume he's worse or better. He could be either but there's no way to be certain or even attempt to prove either point. Based on which evidence? Kudos to both of you though for keeping it civil, informative and entertaining at the same time. Love the new formats.
Going with star wars logic Bane would imo win because of his staggering raw power, but I really like Reti's argument for battle experience. Which should be regarded much higher in star wars (also looking at Palpatine) than it is. In fighting (martial arts and hema/fencing, all kinds really) experience goes over talent. In a fight between someone who is more talented but only ever trained with his buddy or teacher against someone who fought in competitive tournaments for years, I'd bet my money on the latter.
Edit for comparison: Who'd you think is more likely to get hired at a company? Someone who has the university degree (plus self taught?) but is kind of green or someone who has years of working experience in the field? In most cases I'd say the latter.
Suggestion for potential versus matchups:
Depa Billaba vs. Ulic Qel-Droma
Lucien Draay vs. Atris
Darth Sion vs. Durge
Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Zao
Ooh, close. Ulic by a slight margin.
Probably Draay. Similar fighting styles, Atris has greater knowledge but Draay's feats place him at a higher level of magnitude.
Durge. Neither is killing the other but Durge's monstrous form simply outmatches Sion's for strength, flexibility and durability.
Qui-Gon. Roughly equal in the Force but far more viable as a duelist.
I agree on Ulic and Lucien. Zao's actually got more impressive Force powers, but you're right about Qui-Gon. You may have a point on Durge, though I'm not sure.
Ulic.
Draay.
Durge.
Qio Gon.
I would personally say that Ulic wins by way more than a slight margin. Wasn't he essentially his era's reigning Djem So master?
True, but Depa was arguably the second-best Vaapad user
Question: Wich star wars character could take the Demonicaly infused traitor Primarch; Warmaster Horus Lupercal.
I think one of the few things that hasn't been mentioned by Reti based on the loose interpertation on Lord Hoth compared to Bane. Is actually that its the same era in which this match up plays in. It gives a indirect sense that since Hoth was the leading master for the light and bane of the dark side, That they in all likely hood should be relative to each other due to implied statement that they are both the leading figures at that time. Which makes it harder to see mentally that the gap between Bane and Hoth is in a wider range regarding force powers and its effect on whether it tips the balance towards Bane coming out on top. While the reverse is implied with the combat experience with Bane where reti implies that the experience gained after Bane major lightsaber fights is in a much narrower range of potential.
Hence i kinda get why if combat experience, dueling experience all line up regarding Hoth while conversely the other differences from Bane are set in lower range of abillites (i.e force power difference) he would beat Bane due to it being a winning combination. Its just kinda funny to me because its implies well if Hoth has X,Y,Z at this level he would beat Bane. Yet the problem lies is we don't know how High the Bar is. Yeah its obvious its High but is it High enough to beat Bane? There is not a real answer to that because there are missing pieces regarding force powers, tactics, feats to really determin How much is enough to make Hoth actually win. While if there is one peg missing on the Hoth line up it falls short compared to Bane.
[[I think one of the few things that hasn't been mentioned by Reti based on the loose interpertation on Lord Hoth compared to Bane. Is actually that its the same era in which this match up plays in. It gives a indirect sense that since Hoth was the leading master for the light and bane of the dark side, That they in all likely hood should be relative to each other due to implied statement that they are both the leading figures at that time.]]
The thing is, Kaan is the leader of the Brotherhood of Sith, not Bane, while Hoth is the the leader of the Army of Light. Holistically, it would be those two who are portrayed as equals with Bane being a separate player entirely.
The kind of logic you're using would have us view Caedus, the main Darksider of the Legacy series, as equal with Luke when that's simply not the case. Luke has outclassed Jacen in every encounter even pinning him to a chair with a gesture as if locking a toddler into a high chair.
Wait... WHAT?! The Hoth vs. Bane match was supposed to be Hoth vs. Dynasty of Evil Bane?!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
While PoD Bane would win against Hoth with some degree of difficulty, DoE Bane would absolutely DEMOLISH Hoth. XD
Reti, regarding Kas'im vs. Bane, you make the argument that a big reason why Bane did as well as he did against Kas'im was because of his familiarity and experience sparring against Kas'im. Well, my simple question is: what about the inverse?
For example, I've heard this argument used a lot in reference to the Anakin/Vader vs. Kenobi duel in RotS, that, for instance, why Kenobi did as well as he did against Anakin/Vader, who should be, by all rights, superior by that point, is because of his familiarity and experience sparring with and fighting alongside Anakin. The same applies to Anakin though, just as it does with Kas'im. Kas'im had literally the same amount of experience sparring with Bane, and there's nothing Bane knows at that point in regard to lightsaber combat that Kas'im himself didn't straight up teach Bane. So the argument goes both ways, and therefore cancels itself out. In other words, no, Bane would not have been afforded any advantage over Kas'im merely from his experience sparring with Kas'im and being familiar with his fighting style... as Kas'im would have been just as experienced with and familiar with Bane's fighting style, if not more so.
Your problem, Reti, is simply that you put too much stock into experience. Take Musashi Miyamoto, the Legendary Japanese swordsman for example: he went against swordmasters with much more years of experience under their belts, and still bested them. Even prior to when he was of any note or significance, back when he was just training essentially, he bested and killed a swordmaster when he was just a kid IIRC.
So, given we have historical precedence for those with less experience besting those with much more, your death-grip-like-adherence to the stance that 'experience trumps almost everything' is ultimately extremely flawed and lacks any solid, actual foundation. And relating it back to Bane vs. Hoth, Bane is very much a Musashi Miyamoto type. He got inanely powerful and skilled in a very short amount of time... experience be damned.
(As for WHY both Bane and Musashi grew so quickly, it could be because they both were noted to have had an extreme acuteness for the intricacies and nuances of their craft to the point of perfectionism, and a clear passion and diligence toward it. They were both hungry.)
Reti, as someone who has a background in combat (I forget which martial arts you know), you should be familiar with what Bruce Lee said:
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
Given that, it's ridiculous for you to think Bane's apex as a lightsaber duelist was circa the end of Path of Destruction. He had 20 more years of development. In said 20 years, we know he practiced, both by himself and with sparring with Zannah, and we know he was a perfectionist, so he would have been diligent and challenging in his training. And tying it back to what Bruce Lee said, he doesn't say he necessarily fears the man who has actual COMBAT experience, he specifically used the word, "practiced," twice. I think you're selling practice and training too short, while overselling actual combat experience, especially when said training and practice would be as grueling as a Sith would like it.
But anyway, even in DoE, in the same breath that we are told Bane is a sliver past his physical prime, the text says, "what he lost in strength and speed he could easily compensate for with wisdom, knowledge, and experience." Given the context of this is while he's practicing his katas, I think it's more than fair to conclude the "wisdom, knowledge, and experience" mentioned is in reference to his lightsaber skill as opposed to his Force abilities or whatever.
So, if anything, Bane only grew in skill in the blade between PoD, and DoE, Reti.
1:33:36, damn... GreyJedi summed it up pretty perfectly. XD
1:34:52 (1:34:58), DAMN, GREY! BUUUUUUUURN!
Hey, I just wanna say, I know we've had our disagreements in the past, but these were very well constructed arguments and you cut straight through to a few points I attempted, but struggled to articulate during the discussion. Nicely done.
Thanks! Yeah, I think I know which video response you're referring to. I forgot to ever respond to that.
For the most part, we definitely see eye-to-eye, and while I like all of you guys who do the TH-cam versus series stuff, you and Antoine are by far the two I respect the most... so it sucked when what I said in whichever video of yours it was, or perhaps it was HOW I said it, earned your ire a bit. XD
I don't remember what I said, and therefore I don't know if I still stand by whatever I was saying, but knowing me, I probably could have said it all much better in terms of attitude, and I certainly apologize for that.
Also, what's up with YOUR life? Can we expect you to return to making videos of your own anytime soon, or is your Plo vs. Kuro video not necessarily indicative of that?
@@TinyTorah It was definitely an issue of tone over text I think. I took offense too easily really and probably wouldn't if I had heard how you would have said it rather than read it and imagined some form of antagonism. I say we just move on. You're clearly knowledgeable and contribute strong arguments and points of discussion. I would certainly hate to lose you as a viewer, so I too apologize for the chat we had before.
As to more videos on my end, I'm definitely working on more material...lot of irons in the fire at the moment including a few collaborations with the others. One other thing I'll be doing in addition to my usual long format is interspersing shorter (20-25ish minutes) vs videos featuring certain characters I enjoy, but about whom I simply have less to say...much the same as Connor does with his "strikezone" series. I'm also working on a few kotor related projects and although it may not look like it, we have been recording TONS of material for this fanalysis channel that still need editing and uploading as well. Of course this has all taken up some of my time and it definitely appears as though not much is going on, but I can assure you that at some point in the next couple of months the channel outputs will begin to ramp up. Thanks for asking.
I completely agree.
Oh, nah, a tiff wouldn't deter me from quality content, man.
Awesome to hear. I look forward to what you and the other guys have in store!
I also think the way this discussion went just proofs Matts point about Hoth not beeing suited as a character for the kind of versus videos you guys are doing.
What I'll never understand is Evan's claim that SWTOR characters can't be used in vs videos but characters like Hoth can.
True. Its a case of some data (which has to be taken with a grain of salt, due to being from a videogame) vs. a few vague descriptions from a book which equate to basically no data.
Exactly.
To be fair, Evan only said that player created characters like the Hero of Tython and other class characters could never be used. And that’s pretty fair.
Paddy Charman They have way more material to base an analysis off of then Hoth.
i agree with grey jedi completely on this Bane vs Hoth discussion.
Here’s what I can gather.
Hoth is a talented warrior with more experience and training. However, this idea of him being an unmatched genius is basically unfounded. He suffered a fair few defeats during the war, and has had moments where he lost control of his emotions and did stupid things. He has good battlefield awareness, but is described as being quite emotional and energetic in his fights, which doesn’t really fit the idea of him being this completely detached, cerebral warrior. His force powers are solid, but not ground breaking. In general, he’d put up a good fight, maybe land a few decent hits, but once Bane realizes a purely martial victory will be impractical, he’ll start breaking out the force power, and Hoth will just be steamrolled.
Man Matt, you're really hard on yourself considering that you were the first person to do a Star Wars VS video. They're good for the time.
I wish I could create videos like you guys do, sadly I just don’t have the time or funds (let alone the skill in content production) to make them so I guess it’s just posting video suggestions and essay like comments on ones you do make if I disagree. I also really like and appreciate the content all of you guys on the analysis council and I’ve bent watching and enjoying since around 2013 and plan to continue to do so.
I find it weird that you guys use G. Hoth in match ups and basing a lot on speculation.Now that alone is not a bad thing, but what I don't understand that why don't anyone used characters like: Jedi Exile, Sirak, Jolee and a few more.
There are plenty of characters that deserves more mentions.You give so much credit to Hoth based on so little so why not all those other characters?
the main issue comes from ignoring the factor of strenght in the force plays, Hoth may be a far better swordman and strategist than Bane, but that doesn't matter if he can just be choked out at the start of the fight.
Idk about that Mace Obi V Bane Zannah vid being that bad, I thoroughly enjoyed it and think it still holds up well.
So, as far as lightsaber dueling goes, I think both of you bring up good points, but it's a compromise between the two ideas suggested which wins this argument, in my opinion.
I'll start with saying that I agree with GreyJedi91, because facts are always more important to take into consideration when talking fiction than logic and speculation.
But we are taking speculation into account, then I would say that Bane's power and skill would allow him to overwhelm Hoth, but Hoth would put up a hell of a fight, while also tiring Bane out. His experience would allow him to know how to put the pressure on, and how to defend himself, but Bane's superior skills would allow him to defend himself and put Hoth under more strain than Hoth would be putting him under. Both fighters would be struggling, but Hoth would be struggling more.
One thought I had in regards to the use of possible sparring droids by Bane. They might not be able to compete on the level of a high lever force wielder, they can mimic the STYLE of one. Using the theory that even a basic understanding of a fighting style combined with a high level of force power will allow your mind to contend with that style I would think Bane could have filled in his weak spots in his experience in this way? Thoughts?
Reti4 said that Hoth has enough battlefield experience that he's likely seen everything Bane could throw at him, but Bane extensively studied old holocrons and the huge collection of ancient knowledge on Korriban. Surely he would've learned a new trick or 2 that would be unknown to the Jedi of Bane's time.
No offense to GreyJedi but you are taking Bane's fight with Kas'sim a bit out of context. This isn't Bane being dropped into a fight cold with no foreknowledge of his foe. This is Bane fighting someone he has spent months and months sparring with. This isn't like Bane suddenly facing Malgus and driving that swordmaster back. This is Bane fighting someone who he knows and understands intimately. That is the first point, second point the Double Bladed Lightsaber is a horrible weapon (in my opinion of course) it severely limits his reach and his attack vectors and Bane has an intimate knowledge of this weapon again he has fought Kas'sim hundreds of times by this point. So he knows every single way that weapon can be used against him. Which again gives him an edge. Third point Bane was much stronger in the force then Kas'sim, where as Hoth would be much closer (not his equal but much closer in terms of power.)
Now if Bane without the Orbilisk armor had dominated Raskta then I would be more inclined to agree with you that Bane was the best duelist of his age. Now back to his fight with Kas'sim Bane had every single advantage on Kas'sim for this fight. Reach, power, dexterity, and speed in addition to knowing exactly how Kas'sim would fight is there any wonder why Bane would have crushed him?
[[This is Bane fighting someone he has spent months and months sparring with. This isn't like Bane suddenly facing Malgus and driving that swordmaster back. This is Bane fighting someone who he knows and understands intimately. That is the first point,]]
Can you explain why Kas'im doesn't himself possess this very same advantage against Bane ( if not to an even greater extent )?
[[Third point Bane was much stronger in the force then Kas'sim, where as Hoth would be much closer (not his equal but much closer in terms of power.)]]
Based on what?
[[Reach, power, dexterity, and speed in addition to knowing exactly how Kas'sim would fight is there any wonder why Bane would have crushed him?]]
But why would the same reasons for his defeat of Kas'im not apply to Hoth? Hoth is by all reasonable assessment inferior to Kas'im as a lightsaber combatant as Reti himself admitted in the video. Kas'im holds the same advantage over Bane except to a greater degree. The only difference then would be the limited options of a saberstaff in comparison to a single blade. Why is that enough to make up for the disparity?
The reason this is different is Bane was learning from Kas'sim and Kas'sim was the master. Bane was studying what Kas'sim was doing. Kas'sim probably wasn't as focused on it as Bane was and Bane has a very analytical mind. And we don't see Kas'sim having as much skill in that as he seems more focused on the perfect application of his technique and not trying to dismantle his opponents. (To be fair it has been a while since I read the book.)
Now all of those advantages I listed that Bane has over Kas'sim all come from Kas'sim's piss poor weapon. Bane and Hoth are both towering muscle tanks so it seems less likely to me that Bane would have a significant reach advantage. (this is caused by the way you have to use a double bladed saber keeping it closer to your body because otherwise you risk being eviscerated by your own weapon.) Hoth is much closer to Bane in terms of muscle mass so he can potentially contend with Bane's physical strength. Something Kas'sim would not have been able to as again the Saberstaff limits your ability yes it has more kinetic force as you turn your whole body into it but you if you end up in a bind you are fucked. As for speed advantage Bane has that because he can move his arm faster then Kas'sim can move his entire body. (Again the Saberstaff is the reason for this disparity.) And as soon as Kas'sim switched to using two lightsabers he dominated not only I think because Bane didn't know how to deal with it but because he wasn't saddled with all of those weaknesses. The saberstaff is a shock and awe weapon that terrifies those who don't know how it works but against someone who is familiar with it, it becomes an easy weapon to overcome.
[[Bane was studying what Kas'sim was doing.]]
He was studying the lessons Kas'im was teaching him. Pretty sure absorbing the technical knowledge of the greatest Sith battlemaster in the era is going to keep him too busy to thoroughly analyse Kas'im's own style whereas Kas'im himself isn't absorbing any new information outside of becoming familiar with Bane. Something he'd NEED to do as his master to correct any mistakes or flaws in Bane's form.
[[Hoth is much closer to Bane in terms of muscle mass so he can potentially contend with Bane's physical strength.]]
Baseline physicality honestly means very little against an opponent on Bane's tier. He tripped a durasteel prison cell door off its hinges with his augmented strength while connection to the Force was being dimmed by drugs. Even a peak human doesn't come close to accomplishing feats like that.
Fair enough on the point about reach and the saberstaff's inherent weaknesses but, as for speed, Bane still had superior augmentation to Kas'im in PoD regardless of what weapon or weapons he was using.
Well kudos Reti for at least trying, but I think even you knew this was a losing battle. Would you guys do this more for other matchups that maybe you guys don't agree with? I know Antoine and Jensaari don't agree on all their previous matchups. Either way it was interesting to have 2 sides that disagree with the verdict defend each point.
Could you guys do this again but discussing plagueis vs kenobi?
DAVID M Callan and I more or less agree on that one. It'd only make sense if one of the others who voted in favor of Kenobi was along for the discussion
GreyJedi91 yeah I was hoping you, Callan, or Antoine could do it with either Evan or Connor. It's probably the second most controversial vs video so I think it would be appropriate
You guys could make a series of just getting as many of you together as you can, and discussing a verdict that some of you think is questionable.
@@Spellshot693 that's would be interesting to watch, all of the force cast are good enough friends and polite enough individuals to make those sort of discussions interesting without being antagonistic towards one another. And discussion benefits everyone involved.
Bane > Hoth
Also great patience and Wisdom Grey, I wouldnt have been able to tank 2 hours of nonsense arguments for Hoth > Bane, when Bane is Sitari tier in the force.
A tip for you Grey, saying things like "*You* didn't..." or "*You* never..." hurts your own arguments, because it makes it sound like you are attacking the person making the argument (which makes people more stubbornly, even irrationally defensive) instead of attacking the argument itself. Rather you could say things like using the bit around 48:50 "That is something that was not taken into account in either the original or rebuttal video." I'm sure you don't mean to attack the people directly most of the time, and I know all this is off the top of your heads, non-scripted and such, but just something to keep in mind for the future. :)
Adam Case well to be fair...I suppose I am attacking them/their case. But it's really only because I think they're spreading false information. I'm not sure how I could have done it in the manner that you're suggesting, at least not given this format but I'll give it some thought for future.
so, I tried to post my comments on this last night...darn laptop messed up.
So anyways here goes nothin.
@GJ91, personally, i still very much enjoy your Windu and Kenobi vs Bane and Zannah. :)
As for Bane vs Hoth, I think this was a very interesting and informative discussion. Personally, I lean more towards GJ91's side, though I do feel Reti brought up some very good points as well.
@GJ91, at one point in the video you state that the Brotherhood of Darkness is a new organization and that the Army of Light is even newer. While this is true, I feel it wasn't really highlighted that the war between the Brotherhood and the Republic had lasted for a decade prior to Bane's arrival at Korriban and that Hoth was already a notorious general before forming the Army of Light. In fact, the novel states that Hoth seems to be the only one capable of winning victories against the Sith. Just something i felt was overlooked to an extent.
@Reti While I feel like I understand to some extent where you're coming from, I do kinda feel like you're trying to put a little bit too much of real life mechanics and physics into the analysis, especially in terms of how much experience vs how much actual skill Bane and Hoth have.
Overall, I do agree that Lord Hoth *should* be capable of contending with Bane, even at his DOE stage. The problem is that other than his physical augmentation and the stasis field feat you bring up, all Hoth has is accolades. He is certainly one of the prominent warriors of his day, but all we have seen him in is battlefield engagements. And other than his stasis field, we have no concrete knowledge of his Force abilities. And we don't have any knowledge of how he conducts himself in single combat.
Yes, over the span of a decade Hoth has probably faced some very powerful Sith Lords. Do we know anything about these possible duels? no. They're never featured.
Yes, Hoth likely has advanced TK abilities. Do we know how he employs them? No.
Yes, Hoth is likely an advanced lightsaber master. Do we know how he conducts himself in single combat? nope. Not at all.
Whereas Bane, I feel his experience is low-balled a bit too much and his raw power is vastly ignored.
He was trained by Kas'Im, a master of all 7 forms. He fought multiple opponents in the dueling ring on Korriban. He fought Sirak and his brothers to the death in the Korriban library with the aid of Githany. He fought Kas'im and would have beaten him in saber combat if not for Kas'Im switching over to Jar'Kai, a style that NONE of the Sith apprentices at the academy had any experience with due to Kas'Im wanting an edge over all his students.
He fought multiple Jedi on Tython, not the best example due to the Orbalisk armor, but still notable. And he also fought Darth Zannah.
Over the course of decades, he spent a ridiculous amount of time sparring and training in lightsber combat, building up his skill through training. While he might not have a great deal of live combat experience, he still has decades of training backed up by a ridiculous amount of raw talent. Much like the Jedi of the pre-Clone Wars era, who became great lightsaber masters through training and training and training and training, Bane does the same thing with very similar results.
We haven't seen how Hoth built up his skillset or how he employs the various skills under his belt. We haven't even seen the full range of his skills.
As for Force abilities, Bane also has far more showings. He conjured a storm of Force lightning after a single training session, unleashed a Force wave capable of obliterating a Rakatan temple, kept himself alive despite having received a triple dose of poison, fought in a rainstorm without being touched by the rain, utilized a death field and a massive force drain on Darth Andeddu's followers, and made his own holocron.
Hoth...physical augmentation and stasis field. Ok. Great.
I agree that Hoth should be able ot contend with Bane on pretty even footing, his experience vastly outweighs Bane's. But here's the thing. Bane's overwhelming power more than tips the scale in his favor because, without jumping head first off a cliff into the realms of speculation, Hoth hasn't shown anything that can compete with/destroy Bane.
Hoth's battlefield experience is irrelevant. He's never gone up against someone like Bane. I have a hard time believing he would even beat Sirak.
Reminder
*"You know what you have to do,” Kopecz told him, his voice losing some of the anger. He had chosen to follow Kaan; he wouldn't abandon him now. But he wasn't about to sit idly by and face certain defeat. "We face an army of Jedi Knights and Masters. We can't stand against them without our own Masters from the Academy. The students, too. All of them."*
*"They are mere apprentices," Kaan protested.*
*"They are the strongest of our order," Kopecz reminded him. "We both know even the lowliest students on Korriban are stronger than half the so-called Dark Lords here on Ruusan."*
--Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
So tell me why, Sirak, the best of the academy when the lowliest of them are better than the lords of Ruusan wouldn't beat Hoth?
Nevermind that Bane, prior to any of his real experience with Kas'im demolished Sirak.
So Bane (End of PoD)>>>>>>Bane (vs Sirak)>>>>Sirak>>>all the other academy students>The Lords on Ruusan.
And don't bother bringing up Raksta. Cutting down fodder is not impressive. Even Coleman Trebor cut through a column (236) of battle droids in seconds before jumping up to fight Dooku.
Nevermind the fact that nearly all the brotherhood had an engineered weakness against Jar'Kai. Raksta's style. Which no doubt is the reason for her level of performance.
Obviously I love Darth Bane! I like to hear everyone’s opinions because I think it’s fair to disagree and speculate. I would have to say that my biggest problem with people thinking lord Hoth would best Bane is that people underplay his training. Saying that someone needs the experience to get stronger and that training alone is inconsequential doesn’t make sense to me. To me it’s like saying someone who is a sprinter can’t get better by sprinting all by his/herself. Or like someone who practices martial arts can’t get higher in the ranks and stronger by only running through the motions. I’ve known people who have no interest in competing in martial arts competitions who achieved high skill and knowledge on a specific martial art. I have other gripes with this topic but this is my main one! I understand that none of the examples I give are life and death situations like a theoretical battle would be but I think my argument holds up.
Hey guys, on the topic of Bane, who would win in a fist fight, Kar Vastor or Bane?
I'd side with Bane in a close one.
+William Henning Id probably side with Vastor because younger (I think) and no dark side degradation. But Ive got a better matchup for Kar Vastor in mind.
Kar Vastor vs Lord Nyax.
Rob George Nyax due to his performance against Luke.
+William Henning I talked to Elias about it, he also said Nyax due to durability (agree more with his argument). The reason I liked that matchup is that this is a spin on the nature vs machine argument (also enjoy Kar and Nyax).
A fight between these 2 warriors would play out like batman and banes fight in the underground in the dark knight rises.
Separate topic: Since Hoth was the swordmaster at the Jedi Temple at one time (per Essential Guide to Warfare, I believe) it's reasonable to assume he was highly competent in multiple forms.
fairytalejedi FTJ which still doesn't mean he can even contend with bane in a duel let alone overall.
Bane was beyond forms and sequences according to Kas'im and dominated the siths best duelist who had mastered all the forms at the start of his career, his training was passed onto the later sith who did not appear to have lost any of the forms, accolades like "he mastered several forms" or "he was one of the strongest of his era" or "councilmaster" are irrelevant against Bane level opponents
I think y’all needed a third person to sort of mediate this debate to keep it moving forward. It seemed like some of the points that both of you tried to make to support your argument led the debate into a circle on multiple occasions.
Reti4 - None of the others were available as this was kind of an impromptu discussion in the first place. If we do debate format discussions in the future we'll likely go for that kind of mediation.
R.I.P Reti xD
Reti4 - I can only hope to demonstrate some skill in debate with the next topic. I hope you enjoyed the discussion though.
For sure, minus the roundabout near the end it was quite enjoyable. I'm actually really liking the content you guys have been producing lately. Keep up the awesome work!
I'm not "Reti" to die on this hill.
Never thought I'd agree with reti more than any of the others but I agree with him here
No offense but you're actually the very first person to say so here. Why do you side with him? I'm genuinely curious.
@@GreyJedi91 I would say that I agree with reti more because I hold the feat where he kills the Sith minion higher then you do. Also in terms of the experience vs. raw power I think Hoth's particular brand of experience helps him overcome bane's power advantage. I think Hoths would only win 6 out of ten though, this is super close.
Tactics have a definite goal in mind, strategy doesn't. Strategy is basically an attempt to create a situation where favorable tactics might emerge.
I know this might sounds like a weird question but am I right that reti practices martial arts and greyjedi doesn't?
Because from the discussion around bane defeating Kas'im it at least sounds like me that reti talks more from experience than greyjedi.
MPPRODUCTIONSger I have no idea. He's certainly speaking with greater specificity regarding the ways in which Hoth might measure up to Bane. I tend to cut to the heart of the matter though. I speak only on what it's important to my case. Callan tends to...place greater emphasis on details i often consider irrelevant as well. As to whether or not he studies martial arts...i couldn't tell you. I certainly don't. But I know star wars lore pretty well.
So since it didn’t quite see to come across to Grey Jedi, I wanna address Reti’s point regarding Bane’s training with Ka’sim and how it influences the outcome of a fight between the two, but does not necessarily equate to Bane being a well rounded combatant capable of facing any opponent. (Gonna go a bit off topic to illustrate my point)
If I were to play Street Fighter against Daigo Umehara, one of the all time greats, for a year, I’m confident I would be able to take games off of him. Not necessarily because I’m as good a Street Fighter player as he is overall, but instead because I know Daigo’s tendencies, his patterns, his technique and overall style. Which would enable me to tailor my strategy in such a way that I can compete with and some of the time best him. Now if I were to then stop playing with him the first time I bested him and only gain experience through training mode, refining my skill by myself or with one friend, I don’t think it’s fair to assume I could then defeat other great Street Fighter players with ease. I might very well contend with them because of the base knowledge I gained from Daigo and my solo training but they are going to do things with characters (weapons) and playstyles (forms/eccentricities) I have never experienced before. This gives them an advantage over me. The scale of this advantage varies greatly based on how similar they are to Daigo and myself. If we were to assume I beat Daigo because I learned his specific patterns and applied them in rock/paper/scissors in just the right way at just the right time against that exact person, that’s not a transferable feat to a cold engagement facing an unknown opponent.
All that said I think Bane would decisively defeat Hoth.
My reasoning for Bane winning so decisively is that his power in the Force makes him significantly quicker and stronger. In every strike Hoth would be on the backfoot, if even once he’s a hair too slow its over.
That's a great example but I think a few alterations are needed to make it a perfect analogy.
Your knowledge of Daigo's overall style comes from your time having trained with Daigo so logically Daigo is going to know your style as well, probably to an even greater extent then you know his. You still beat him anyways despite being less skilled because you simply have better reflexes.
Don't you find it more plausible that somebody who can beat Daigo off the back of their reflexes with added years of solo training is likely able to take on and defeat the other all time greats?
William Henning The reason I picked Daigo was that he would force anyone who defeats him to have mastered the fundamentals of Street Fighter, on top of finding an edge against him specifically.
There’s only so far normal human reflexes go and Daigo has some of the best (just search Daigo parry, each parry is an individual perfectly timed input). That’s not where I’d find myself an edge. Daigo is a fully formed fighter with habits and routines ingrained in him. As a newcomer my own style and patterns are much more likely to change drastically as I learn and grow, and remember the first time I beat Daigo it’s over he never gets to try again. I can mold my own style in such a way that it has an inherent edge over Daigo’s style. What I lack in skill I make up for with head to head knowledge and potentially match up advantage. To oversimplify let’s say Daigo’s primary style is scissors. So I choose to develop a rock style, he may see this and switch to paper but then that’s already a win for me.
With my limited experience I might struggle in a match with a master with a character I’ve never seen before that’s drastically different from my previous master. The example that springs to mind being Snake Eye’s Zangief, a big-body grappler type character. Which within Star Wars might translate to a Jedi master wielding a Light Pike. In that scenario my opponent would be looking for openings I hadn’t considered before, or attack me from angles I’m unfamiliar with.
In the context of this match up my issue with this is that Hoth is most likely not a significant departure from the style Bane has experienced. If Ka’sim is Daigo’s Akuma then Hoth would be an excellent Ken. (Ryu and Ken come from the same martial arts school and are typically the most well rounded and fundamentally sound characters in Street Fighter, Akuma is the embodiment of what they can become if they embrace Street Fighter’s version of the Dark Side). Ken is certainly different from Akuma in nuanced and important ways, but he is not such a drastic departure that I would be at a loss. The style differential would be a relatively small edge at best.
The way I would depict strength in the Force within the context of Street Fighter would be a mounting frame advantage. Bane plays with 4 frames (60 frames per second) of input delay, Hoth with 7. Bane’s jab comes out in 2 frames, Hoth’s in 3. Bane leaves block stun a frame earlier than Hoth’s. Bane’s strikes deal 10% more damage. Etc.
This may not have been the best analogy then tbh because Bane is CONFIRMED to have superior augmentation to Kas'im so in the example given the person being trained would also need to have significantly superior reflexes to Daigo.
And the thing is, Bane wasn't molding his style so that he could beat Kas'im specifically. He was trying to take in a breadth of knowledge that encompassed ALL of lightsaber combat with a focus on his personal form. He had no idea he was going to have to be fighting Kas'im somewhere down the line.
William Henning i was really just trying to make Reti’s argument more clear for why it could be that way. Because Matt didn’t seem to get what he was saying at all.
Not so much that I believe this to be the case
After 5 years I’m still 100% with Matt/greyjedi91. Bane was robbed! 😂 but seriously we have 3 books spanning babes life as a sith where we have a couple paragraphs about hoth, babe is a mastermind for the dark side
This was like watching a lightsaber duel between y'all were grey had the advantage and kept Reti on the back foot with his best argument being is hoth's experience
And note you do look like Jesus painting Reti4 though with my previous statement was more like a Jedi master training a padwan in this particular situation
The Lord Hoth VS Darth Bane matchup has flaws.
There is not a lot of information on Hoth which leads people to over speculate his capabilities. Lord Hoth has faced many adversaries but we're they as skilled and as powerful as Bane ? Probably not since Bane was conciderd the greatest sith fighter at that time. As mentioned in the video If Kassim had not changed his approach to combat so quickly Bane would have defeated him. Remember this is before Bane reached his full potential as a dualist. So there for I do not think Hoth would have the advantage as a more capable fighter over Bane. People also think that Bane would not be able to adapt to Hoth's approach in combat since he is a Battle master, but that discredits Bane training under Kassim who was also a battle master. Do to this I believe Bane would be somewhat familiar with Hoth's Style and Adapt his style to better engage him. I am not saying that Hoth and Kassim's styles were identical but that Bane has experience facing a Battle Master and would be prepared to adapt his style if needed. He is not one to underestimate his adversary instead he is somewhat like Darth Tyranus in that he remains vigilant, learning and adapting to the situation.
When we use Bane at his Prime against Hoth he is proven to be more capable then anybody Hoth has ever faced and that is why I think Darth Bane would be the Victor.
At around 1:15:00, you say that you take the position of the council and ask yourself whether you are sending a character to their death.
However, all versus videos are somewhat close calls, so you should always send more than one person. The council normally sends a whole strike team.
I've only just seen this. With respect, that isn't the point of what I was saying. Sorry if I failed to make that clear. It's simply a mental exercise I put myself through to figure out if my feelings for a character cloud my judgement of their abilities. That is all. You're absolutely 100% correct that the council would and should more often than not send more than one individual.
@@GreyJedi91 Ah, that makes more sense, thanks.
I'm enjoying (-ed) this discussion
I think that the best way to handle Bane and Hoth is to say this as an addendum "I think Hoth is powerful enough to take on and maybe even defeat Bane, given that he's the head honcho of the era, that said there isn't enough evidence to show this to be the case, so I name Bane the victor." boom problem solved
sorry ten months late but yeah
Matt angry coupled with the upward angle camera view genuinely scares me 😳
Damn Matt is out here firing on all cylinders, personally I'm still not sure why the speculative argument is even worthy of merit when it disregards that which is objectively true. Seems like asserting something without evidence considering Lord Hoth has very little in the way of demonstrable feats. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without as well
The argument that Hoth would beat Bane because he has seen Fighters like him is ridiculous..
For all we know the Sith that hoth fought were know better than Savage Opress.. the very first book path of Destruction Bane had already defeated their greatest Sith.. (Kissam) you can't tell me that hoth was fighting Sith at the same level of power as Darth Bane that's ridiculous Darth Bane was a once-in-a-generation type of Sith. Even if he fought shit with the same style that doesn't automatically mean he'd be prepared to take down Darth Bane
Retis argument could be used to justify the verdict of any matchup ever. It seems unfalsifiable based on his own (very odd) reading of what he feels the character should be. Why even call this guy you are arguing for Hoth, ready? Call him Shmoth, or whatever headcanon version of a character that exists solely in your mind.
Its no different that the people who thin their favourite character can beat everyone else. I could just as easily say Ahsoka beat sidious because i prefer her as a character.
Reti4 - I would point out that I don't believe Hoth to be of the calibre I do because I like him. I simply point out in the discussion that my appreciation for his character just happens to be attached to the traits that place him as highly in my mind as they do. Hence my investment. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I don't want to just throw my idea of the character aside without revisiting the book again to clarify.
It does not seem unreasonable to me to think it likely that he places among the likes of Satele Shan, Mace Windu or Kyle Katarn however, given the nature of his role in the era narratively speaking. People seem willing to acquiesce to his being able to contend, but given that the evidence, or lack thereof, for that argument is the same that leans me towards him winning, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to draw the line of acceptability further than others who see it falling simply at contend. Especially given my issues with Bane's side of the equation.
I understand why that's not good enough for a versus. IF's of the scale this particular instance involves goes far beyond what the general consensus considers appropriate for the Versus Video format. That consensus doesn't invalidate my personal view though, as, if my IF *is* accurate, my argument itself isn't inherently wrong, just unprovable.
I may not have had a very good argument and/or presented it poorly, but I think it was a little more developed than "I prefer Hoth so I think he should beat Bane."
banethesithari Funny enough in the recent Rebels episode, Ahsoka actually held of Sidious
Samuel Myth without context that sounds awful. Sidious was having to cast a powerful ritual just to open that portal open and even then his lightening had spread out over a large area and ahsoka held it off for about a second. She was desperately running and knew should stood no chance against him.
Eh Rebels is shit anyway. Something thats has Kanan beating Darth Maul, I don't take seriously anyway.
For the Bane vs Hoth I find myself agreeing with Reti4 and to be honest GreyJedi seemed really rude in this debate and seems to continuously try to interrupt Reti4 when he tries to make his points
Two Star Wars Fanalysis in a week. I am blessed
Reti4 - I hope you enjoy!
The issue is that reti is making a cogent logical argument (if this then that) and greys only response was i dont agree with your if! You cant empirically prove your if!
No duh, and reti did acknowledge that his argument was based on an if. When in truth all of retis arguments hold up, based on the premise he was working with.
Grey wants to come in after the fact and rewrite the premise because he doesnt like the ending.
Its like if they played chess and reti won so grey starts arguing that real war doesnt have bishops so the entire game is invalid. You should agree to the grounding of an issue before you debate, it will be less frustrating.
Great vid!
The point was that reti and the others had been making the case that Hoth would win based on little to no evidence. Reti just assumes that Hoth is about on Windu's level and gives no actual evidence for it. He acknowledges this himself. Grey called them out on it and showed how unreasonable it was to give Hoth a victory.
@@davidm8135 i disagree. Reti and the others took accolades and yes, a very little info about hoth and reasoned out a set of stats, proclivities, and points for the character. They never said hoth would beat bane. They very clearly and repeatedly said that IF this is true about hoth THEN he could beat bane. They made thier case and you dont have to agree with it, i dont necessarily agree with it, but you cant call thier conclusion fallacious or erroneous if its based on the same IF analysis. Now, what grey could say is that he disagrees with thier conclusions about hoth, and therefore he calls the conclusion into question. That would be a fair point.
But instead he just keeps pointing at the IF disclaimer that the others ALREADY DISCLOSED, (repeatedly) as if by underlining something that they prefaced the analysis with hes undermining the entire argument. But hes not.
Their argument is based on the if this then that premise and if you accept the premise then it is a logical theory that makes sense. If you dont agree with the assumptive premise... then jog on... find something else to do... its literally why we are here is to participate in such if this then that logical reasoning. If that doesnt appeal to you then the only argument anyone could ever make is that the writers didnt have them fight yet so we cant prove anything one way or the other.
I know this is kind of old, but I think it's important to address how seriously things have been misinterpreted here. In my frank opinion, they actually can't come close to empirically proving their "if." Their "if" isn't very strongly implied. Their "if" seems sort of conjured from thin air to me. This wouldn't bother me much if they admitted this from the outset in the interest of full disclosure, but they frame their case as if it is backed up by the source material.
They then (if you watch the video which precedes this one) sort of write off the opinions to the contrary expressed by their critics (at least Evan did this for sure at the time, though I credit Callan and Connor for curtailing him on that as they clearly understood where some of the objections came from) with equally little evidence. I am a part of the group. The group's opinions are taken by some viewers as a collective. I chose to distance myself from their view on this matter and expose the lack of substance behind their case, at least as I see it. It is absolutely no different from asserting a disagreement in a comment or forum discussion. It's a rebuttal. Maybe not the best or most articulate in the world, but I've never claimed to be perfect. I don't see what's so frustrating about this.
If anything, the part I play in what extends this debate is the fact that I'm asking questions attempting to understand a case that makes no sense to me at all. You're making it seem like I should just accept the assumptive premise behind their view of the characters to accept their conclusion in the hypothetical match. In the interest of fairness, it took me a while to even understand what the assumptive premise behind Reti's argument even is, and he himself states that his own reasonings are not all the same ones expressed by Connor and Evan. So let's not frame this as though their "cogent" case is entirely coherent and/or backed in equal measure by the 3 of them. Connor suggested the matchup to Evan as well as was the first to pose the theory that Hoth would win off camera. Evan presented the video. Callan contributed his opinion. They all agree on the outcome, but some have different reasons for how they worked that out. I disagree with all of them but for different reasons, some of which emerged over the course of discussion. I'm not rewriting an outcome. I'm asking questions in the hopes that it will encourage others to do the same.
And I'll say this, I've played chess and lost to Reti many times. Never once have I been a sore loser in the way you describe. I think it's a bit silly how many assumptions you're choosing to make about my motives and mindset. Which in essence is my response to their verdict on Hoth vs. Bane: I disagree with most of their assumptions and I don't think all of these assumptions were styled as such in the video or even in their follow up discussion. That, to me, treads the line of good and honest transparency. I simply want others to consider this in future. That is all. Fair enough?
@@GreyJedi91 couldn't have said it better myself
For the record, I don't think that Bane would win (even if there's no real evidence to support this opinion), but still, I view Hoth as a more Oppo Rancisis type strategist - a competent fighter, but one trained to be a leader, not a warrior. Battle hardened, but not trained for one on one duels. ( I also think that tactics and strategy have very little actual impact on a no holds barred fight to the death - generally you need time and reconnaissance info to make reliable battle plans).
I guess also I will vouch for Callan in this particular instant and say that I don't think he actually believes in this argument of Hoth winning against Bane. I think he was trying to say towards the end that he was playing devil's advocate. I can't speak for you Callan, but that's what I get from this.
Spookasaur honestly that's the impression he gave me while I was arguing with him. And that's part of why I pushed the debate so hard. It was kinda like trying to get a confession. But just so you know...even after we wrapped recording this one, his position didn't really shift though.
Hm...interesting. Anywho, as I've said before, I enjoy this video, and I watch it quite a bit. I like listening to civil debate, and debate is kind of one of my hobbies, especially when it's an interesting topic such as this one. On my 5th or 6th time watching I believe. Lol..also just out of curiosity, have any of you seen the videos "The Philosophy of Kreia" and "The Failure of the Grey Jedi" and if so, what are your thoughts on them? (they are done by a user who's name is blank when you look at it)
While watching you both kept coming up and saying Bane kept learning kasims movements giving him the advantage since they sparred for a year but wouldn't that mean kasim was learning Bane as well?
I mean he was impressed with him you'd think he'd keep this stuff in mind especially since he limits his students in duel blades
Even in their fight at the Rakatan temple kasim went all out even Bane said he knew the blade master was holding something back during there training sessions
Then all fell apart due to the switch into duel blades which his soresu held against even barely but still did
Over all Bane even in a unknown fight did well against the blade master
Agreed.
In short, I agree with GreyJedi91-though not entirely. I do not hold anything against his view of Darth Bane in comparison to Lord Hoth, but rather his placing of Darth Bane in comparison to other characters.
I feel, personally, that Darth Bane is, for all intents and purposes, the most powerful Sith Lord from the Old Republic era (with the exception of Vitiate). However, I do not believe that this places him above the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi (Shaak Ti and Plo Koon do not fit into Kenobi’s tier either, in my opinion) but that’s a debate for another time.
As for Reti, I can respect your opinion, and your punctuality in this video was very professional, but I do not agree with you in this particular scenario. I appreciate that a character with an excellent tactical mind can defeat a physically superior combatant, but only in specific scenarios (eg Kenobi Vs. Skywalker).
Anyway, this was a very enjoyable video, and I’m looking forward to next week’s episode (as well as GreyJedi’s Sharad Hett Vs. video ;).
+Ki Adi Sandwich I don't really agree Darth Bane is the most powerful Sith Lord from Old Republic Era (as you said Vitiate but I would also add Exar Kun, Revan, and maybe Emperor's Wrath Lord Scourge). Also, I think Darth Bane would defeat Kenobi. While they cancel out as swordsmen (Kenobi can wall Bane, Bane can wall Kenobi), Bane's power in the force would be to much for Kenobi, but like you said, "that’s a debate for another time."
I'm def looking forward to that Sharad Hett matchup. But I'm also waiting for that Shado Vao matchup as well.
Rob George
Recently, a quote has been discovered that places Exar Kun below Darth Malak. In addition, Darth Bane has a quote placing him as the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith Lord up-and-to his time (if I remember rightly).
Also, a ton of discussion, research, and critical thinking has been conducted on the debating forums, and Obi-Wan has been raised to new heights. In fact, some people, including myself, now hold Kenobi and Dooku as equals. However, that’s not relevant here.
+Ki Adi Sandwich I believe I know which Malak quote your are talking about. Assuming its the same one, that was when Malak was amped by the Star Forge. If its the one about his title meaning something like "almighty" that is more of a title than anything else. As for Darth Bane, I don't remember that quote but I have a different view on his force power. His force power was considered by Darth Cognus to be above Thon and Kun has been stated to be more powerful (assume force power) than any other force wielder in his era (which includes Thon, and Nomi). So I def think they are at least in the same league but Kun>Bane.
I'm not a very active member on the debating forums, but the main reason I don't see Kenobi on par with Dooku is mainly due the force power diff. Because in terms of swordsmen, I completely agree. But like you said, not relevant.
Rob George
It is the Star Forge quote. However, we can infer that regular Malak’s powers are superior to Kun’s, too, as the source states that Star Forge Malak’s powers are far above Kun’s, and the difference between Star Forge Malak and regular Malak is, in my opinion, a small gap in power.
And if the Bane quote is taken as factual, then that places him as Kun’s superior in regards to power, as well as Malak’s.
+Ki Adi Sandwich Glad to know its the Star Forge quote. The main issue where we disagree is the magnitude of the Star Forge amp. While Malak's power after amp does indicate that his force power is indeed worthy for that general tier 1 status, I think the gap between base and amped Malak is a lot larger than you think. But I'm fine to disagree on that.
As for the Bane quote, I agree that if the quote is factual than his force power is >Kun. But based on Cognus's assessment of Bane's force power in superior to Thon's (by how much depends on interpretation), and the sourcebook's comparing Kun to the rest of his era (including Thon), I lean towards Kun. Not to mention, he has a force amulet and did kill Odan Urr with force abilities (who is more or less Ancient Yoda).
I think GreyJedi is misunderstanding something. The Darth Bane novels, like 95% of fiction novels these days, is written in third-person limited which means that the text is following or mirroring the thoughts of Bane himself. So, when the text says that Kasim is the greatest blade master in the Sith, possibly of all time...that's Banes own, naive point of view. Its not meant to be taken as objective fact (and it would likely contradict the canon if it was), but as Bane himself thinking that.
I would also argue that this is kind of "damning with faint praise" if Kasim is the greatest Sith duellist of his era; his competition for that title isn't very impressive after all, and almost all of them are- like Hoth- battlefield combatants rather than serious, dedicated one-on-one duellists, so if you are going to rate their abilities in order to raise Kasim then you need to do the same for Both anyway.
Besides, beating the greatest lightsaber duellist of your era, while impressive, doesn't mean you have surpassed or are necessarily even on their level, especially if only did so once. It may just mean you were "good enough" along with getting lucky.
Jonathan Campbell if that's your perspective then nothing Bane was given to understand by way of hear-say in that book is set in stone. Kas'im is stated all throughout the book to be the greatest blademaster among the brotherhood. It's his literal title. The blademaster. Now I voiced my own doubt that I don't necessarily think he's the greatest in history up to that point...but he's the greatest Sith martial artist under Kaan's authority. That much is well established and really the only relevant point here.
Wasn't Kaan himself stating the same of Ka'sim, in that very book? Cause its not just Bane's view.
He is stated throughout the book by Bane (who is young and naive, even if he has grown skeptical of every other facet of Sith teaching) and by other Sith Masters (who are all arrogant and full of themselves, not to mention weak-willed enough that they fell under the mental domination of Kaan, something Bane had no trouble resisted later on).
I would actually argue that Kasim or maybe Kaan or someone else actually built up a bit of a personality cult around Kasims fighting skills, partly because he really was good, but also because thats whats cults DO- they try to make you feel important and special, and nothing says that like saying "Hey, we have the greatest lightsaber duellist in the galaxy on our side here!" It would also appease an egotistical Sith Lord to be singled out for special honours so Kaan giving / letting him have the title of Blademaster could be yet another way to keep him under his thumb through flattery.
I can agree that Kasim is the single greatest martial artist under Kaan authority if you like...I just don't think it is saying THAT much. Again, his competition from where I stand kind of sucks- he's the big fish in a small pond, Bane only being a yet bigger fish. Being the best fighter amongst a bunch of relative failures isn't too impressive.
Yeah I can see that, I just wanted to point out that Bane was not alone in that view.
Otherwise I always argued against regarding Ka'sim so high, because he is a bit of a one trick pony, with the dual saber trick.There were always seems to be a kind of fluctuation of power when it came to the power of force wielders(and technological level) of the different eras.Kotor SwTor era Jedi seems to be at least on par with Clone Wars era jedi order.While Banes Era is a sort of "Dark Age" where a lot of ancient knowledge has been lost.
But when it comes to DoE Bane they definetly underplayed him for the sake of Hoth.In fact Im sure DoE Bane would squash Ka'sim, just via force power.
Ákos Kovács Kaan may have said so himself as well yes, but even then it doesn't amount to much because Kaan himself never amounted to much. I am not at all saying that Kasim was anything less than a highly skilled and experienced duellist...but if you are comparing him to all of the other great duellists in the Star Wars lore, saying that he or any other person is the best of their era doesn't mean all that much, not if the rest of your era isn't too impressive for various reasons.
Bascially, I'm just wondering where these guys would rank Kasim relative to the other, better known Jedi and Sith in terms of his skills.
15:07 Start of Bane discussion
Yo Matt chill man, I appreciate that you guys have a lot of passion for this stuff but remember that it's just fiction, no need to get angry.
MrEffectfilms I wasn't angry. The one time I argue a point this strongly some people take it to mean I'm mean and angry. I just disagree with Callan 100%. Bane's reputation is being undermined without firm evidence to back it up. A lot of people listen to our verdicts and just accept them blindly. They place our knowledge of the mythos on a pedestal and don't look at the facts for themselves. That aggravates me. I normally am pretty chill. As you can see from basically all my videos. But I have emotions just like anybody and I'm defending one of my favorite characters. Fiction it may be...but I still care about the facts and the representation of characters.
Fanalysis lite: Greyjedi makes Reti sad
Hoth could probably put up a decent fight, but it's extremely unlikely that he would win.
I thought the Kit Fisto vs Plo Koon video was good and I thought the conclusion was correct, so think it's a shame you think so little of it now. To be honest I think you guys way overrate Plo Koon (perhaps partially compensating for underrating him in the past, before you got more info on him) I also think Fisto is underrated as many seem to dismiss his Shi Choo mastery as not suitable for single opponents (as it is more known for being ideal for fighting multiple foes) and while it did not look too impressive on film (as can be said about all of the scene) he remains the only other Jedi, next to Windu, from that "elite" team who successfully blocked multiple strikes from Sidious, which is something I don't think Plo would have managed had he been there (I think he would have performed similar to Tiin).
Anyway, we all got different perceptions and opinions on this and with such inconsistent source material none of us can claim absolute authority on this.
Well, I'm sure you wouldn't argue the video is very poorly produced. But I'm pleased you enjoyed it. I find it embarrassing for it's poor quality though. Now, I don't know what you mean when you say that we all "way overrate" Plo Koon. But my changed view of him goes to a time before I knew who Callan was and well before anybody else had used him. For the record the only other video I've done up to this point was a collab with Connor in which we concluded Koon would have an edge over Qui-gon Jinn. And even that was more to do with his greater inclination to use the Force in combat. Anyway, with all due respect to Fisto (who may well be more technically proficient with the lightsaber than Plo Koon) it is simply a matter of one being better prepared for the other. Kit utilizes a form that simply doesn't address one-on-one Lightsaber Dueling. Even if he makes it work in that regard that's not where the strength's of Form I lie. He is also credited with skill in Ataru and has displayed skill with dual blades which he does not normally carry. Plo Koon is also credited with skill in Ataru (in the clone wars era campaign guide) and is well documented as a Form V specialist. Initially only Shien, later confirmed as Djem So as well. Plo Koon's form advantage is that he is better primed for single combat against an opposing lightsaber duelist, and his personal approach is far more primarily defensive.
As with Qui-gon Jinn, while Plo Koon may not be significantly stronger in the Force than Kit Fisto, his is more inclined to make use of it in combat. They have repeatedly been paired up on missions together in various comics and in every case, Plo Koon is portrayed as the more capable and experienced of the two. In part due to his age. I don't mean to focus all of this talk on Koon and not give Fisto any credit, but in an attempt to keep this as short as I can, I only focused on the key points as to why I think Plo would be more likely to beat Fisto. Kit is likely faster, is significantly younger and seemingly possessed of greater stamina. He functions more effectively on the battlefield than Plo Koon does. Takes out more of the enemy more quickly. Is generally physically superior and more adaptive. But he's less primed for combat with an opposing Jedi and has experienced lesser success than Plo Koon has in that regard. At least on the merit of pure swordsmanship during lightsaber duels. All of this to say...my changed has nothing to do with anybody else's opinion, nor is it some kind of misguided attempt to make up for underrating him. I don't even think I drastically underrated him in the past. Just misjudged the verdict on that occasion.
Thank you for taking the time to reply with this well thought out response. As I say, the inconsistency of source material makes different opinions and perspectives on this sort of thing almost inevitable, but I appreciate that your rationale is not baseless and I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on that.
A quick note on your video production, I would agree that the production quality is low on those early videos but I think you are being somewhat hard on yourself and not appreciating that while the production values was not of a high quality the content and your analysis was always more important to me and why I personally enjoyed your videos as much as that. So while you may look back at your early videos in a negative way, I think you should know that many of us did and still do enjoy them (so maybe you should give yourself more credit).
As for the Plo vs Fisto issue. Regarding my comment on saying I think you guys way overrate Plo, that is based largely (though not only) around a video I saw on Sidious where many of you pictured a very different outcome if Windu had taken Plo and Shaak Ti and Kenobi, instead of Tiin, Kolar and Fisto. I strongly disagree with this assertion (and think it is largely based on a massive overrating of both Plo and Ti). While it may be different with Kenobi involved (if for no other reason than his plot armour helping him survive the encounter) I honestly think it is absurd to claim that Ti and Plo would fair any better against Sidious than Tiin and Kolar did (and I don't think either would have faired as well as Fisto did).
It is clear that Lucas intended for only Windu and Yoda to be capable of contending with Sidious and I think the other Jedi that were with Windu was almost irrelevant in his mind. He gave Fisto a tiny bit of extra credit by allowing him to contend with Sidious (briefly) and they even seemed to make it look like Fisto was at first protecting Mace (as he moves in between Windu and Sidious to block Sidious' attack, or else Windu moved behind Fisto which would seem less in character). Of course I understand that Lucas was not involved in a lot of source material that we use to build our analysis but at the same time the films do have to take precedent with regards to setting certain standards and the film seemed to be portraying Mace's team as pretty much his first choice (with the exception of perhaps Kenobi and Yoda being preferred if they were available) and I honestly think if Lucas had used Plo and Ti instead of Tiin and Kolar, they would have been killed in much the same way (instantly killed without the speed of reaction to even block a strike).
Fisto was portrayed as a bit better than that, though still ultimately no match for Sidious, and his speed of movement was able to, all be it briefly, match Sidious. The novel also supports the idea that Kolar in particular was specifically chosen for facing Sidious, suggesting his skill in one on one combat is highly rated, with Fisto and Tiin added to the team for similar reasons. I also look at novels like Cestus Deception and the ROTS novel which both seem to support the idea that Fisto was one of the more formidable one on one fighters, even if his skill set is more ideal for multiple opponents and while his virtual defeat to Ventress may undercut that somewhat, even that was portrayed in a way that complimented Fisto's skill and speed and even had Kenobi suffer a similar fate (with Fisto having to rescue him in a similar way to how he rescued Fisto). Also that novel clearly put Fisto above Kenobi as a swordsman, by Kenobi's own admission, and while I agree with Jensaari's claim that Obi Wan had not yet hit his absolute prime (and would defeat Fisto in a duel if they were both fighting at their prime) I do think that his superiority over Kenobi at that time is still note worthy as this was after AOTC, when Kenobi was a Jedi master. So while I understand Fisto is more suitable for multiple opponents (in a way that makes it curious that he was not sent to kill Grevious) I do think his ability in one on one fights is underrated and his Shii Cho mastery, taken to its highest level, makes him a dangerous opponent in much the same way as a Juyo master would be (wild, unpredictable, fast and furious).
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to respond with your thoughts. It is very much appreciated. You and Jensaari are personally my two favourite commenters to listen to on vs videos as I find your analysis to be well thought out and presented, even if I do sometimes disagree with your conclusions, but I do think that all of you overrate Ti and Plo (perhaps Kenobi too because I think he has no hope against Plageus, so strongly disagree with that video) and just wanted to express that observation.
Matthew Sands I see what you mean... but I'm not sure why you lump all of our opinions together though...I had nothing at all to do with the Sidious is not invincible podcast. To me Plo Koon caps out as somebody who could give somebody like Vader a challenge. Not Sidious.
As for Fisto, I still think he is less likely to beat Koon for the reasons I already gave. But I do agree with your assessment of several of his battles and I can definitely see where you're coming from. It isn't that I don't think Fisto is on his level. I just think their differing skills balance out to Plo Koon getting the edge. Your conclusion is still reasonable though.
Good point. I apologise for conflating your views with the others. To be honest it had been so long since I saw the Sidious episode that I forgot who was involved and while there seemed to be a consensus among everyone involved in that video I should not just assume that you share that view.
I also see where you are coming from regarding Plo and while I personally gave Fisto the slight edge, it was only a slight edge and I can definitely see the logic in giving the edge to Plo. But I do think either way would be a close contest.
I do also rate Plo very highly and agree he could give Vader a match, but could not get on board with the idea of him representing any kind of challenge to Sidious (or even that he would have been much more useful than Tiin or Kolar, simply because of Sidious' speed). So disagreed with a lot from that video, but I should have checked that you were involved before assuming you agreed with it.
Anyway thank you very much for taking the time to converse and for taking my points on board. Please keep the vs videos coming as I enjoy them very much.
P.S. While I got your attention I put some suggested vs match ups I personally would like to see just for your consideration. They all involve Jedi from movies and I know you like to explore more obscure characters and other eras, so these may not be match ups you are interested in doing. but just in case I thought i'd throw out some suggestions
Sidious vs Plagues, Ti vs Fisto, Kolar vs Maul, Tiin vs Mundi and Windu vs Anakin.
Also have you thought about reviewing SW movies? I think you would be good at that. I really liked your review of clone wars micro series and would personally enjoy a similar length video review of each SW movie. Again, just a suggestion