Scariest Take Off I've Ever Seen - Aircraft Performance and Personal Minimums
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This is an amazing example of how calculation theory and real life application don't always line up.
Watch as a G36 Bonanza with a Tornado Alley Turbo performs a short field take off in a mountainous area, and just barley makes it out alive.
The pilot Chris, learned a ton from this experience and shares an amazingly detailed analysis at the links below.
Please visit them to share the lessons from his experience.
Chris Palmer shared this footage with me to analyze
- he is an amazing pilot from "Angle of Attack".
LINKS you must visit for great post flight analysis:
one to Chris' "Aviatorcast", and one to Chris' awesome article
(with massive comment thread)
NOTE: please avoid "Monday morning quarter backing" Chris had to deal with enough of that back when this was first put out there.
www.flyaoamedia.com/aviatorcas...
www.flyaoamedia.com/aviation/m...
* AMENDMENT * to voice over:
I am sorry about any confusion I may have caused regarding roles density altitude and runway length played here - maybe I should have dug deeper to get some actual numbers; but Chris, the original pilot, did not have his actual performance calculations available, so I decided based on that lack of some of the specific details, to simply avoid including any of them, and I went for a more general "start the conversation" type theme, regarding personal minimums. Essentially, I made a video motivated by the visceral reaction I had to seeing the footage and wanted to share.
DISCLAIMER: I am a "weekend warrior" private pilot, I fly for fun with no intentions of going commercial.I have had my PPL for over 15 years, but still consider each flight a learning experience - I generally take detailed notes after each flight to remind myself what went well or what I could do to improve.... Having the GoPro cameras to record flights like this is invaluable. I find these self analysis videos very helpful in my constant quest to improve, and am happy to share.Feed back is invited; however, please keep it positive
""EXPERIENCE IS A DIFFICULT TEACHER BECAUSE SHE GIVES THE TEST FIRST AND THE LESSON AFTERWARD" Such a good quote, that I wrote it down! Thanks for sharing Flight Chops!
A shorter version I read in Readers Digest long ago was .... Experience is a tough teacher She tests before she teaches .
@Byron Landiss Graves - Don't forget: ...AND NOT ALL LESSONS IN AVIATION ARE SURVIVABLE.
Made the same mistake 40 years ago with wife and child in a C150, downwind on a hot summer night out of Grass Valley. Missed the trees by inches or less. So stupid on several levels.
Doing very short field takeoffs on a very regular basis, I think he rotated to early. He had a lot more runway to use, even if he had kept it in ground effect longer to gain the speed to get best climb angle. To me it seems like he was battling airspeed and climb. It's tempting to try and hurry the plane into a climb, but it's often better to keep the nose down, get the speed you need, then climb. A way to practice this and decide what works best is on a good day take off with minimum airspeed, climb on the edge as he did, take note of your altitude as you cross the end of the runway. Then repeat the process several times staying on the runway until you hit higher airspeeds before letting it off the ground. You will find that sweet spot where you are actually climbing higher in a shorter distance by getting airspeed higher before climbing. Resist the urge to climb too early!
Looks to me he rotated when he could to get the plane off the ground then kept it reasonably low in ground effect (still low above the numbers at the end of the runway) and then marginally went up to level off as much as possible thru the treetops. If you keep rolling longer on the runway before rotating you gain less speed due to tire friction resistance compared to speeding up in ground effect.
There is a very well described relationship between angle of attack and induced drag. If you are too slow and pull up like that you will create so much drag that it becomes difficult to gain any airpseed.
Rotate and get that gear up asap to drop the drag and add some speed. Hug the ground for that ground effect and pop up when you have that speed!
@@tommycaputo9267 complex gear and I 100% agree with what you describe, but I still contend, if you rotate too early it will take longer to get off, because that act of rotation causes a higher angle of attack which causes significant drag, “induced drag”. Better to keep it in a less aerodynamic drag until you have an ability to use that ground effect more effectively with minimal angle of attack to do what you’re explaining. The chipping of the stall horn, it was rotated before the POH numbers, which means you are creating a lot of drag (more than the gear). Bonanzas are tricky, they don’t like flaps on take off, rotate speed for short field if I recall is like 10 knots over standard stall speed, horn chirps 5 knots over. Normal take off is 20 knots over. Rotated too early, which is going to create drag. I’ve actually met the pilot of this plane, next time I see him, I’ll have to pick his brain on his perspective of the experience after 7+ years more experience… :-)
Great insight to the bananza. I have a Mooney and if the gear is down, your climb performance is way down at sea level and you won't climb at altitude.
But it requires flaps for short field.
The optimist says rotate earlier.
The pessimist says rotate later.
The engineer says cut the #$@&%*! trees down.
+Zyklon - Drake. it's just a dozen trees in the way who could be cut to improve safety and could get planted somewhere else. Just saying.
+Zyklon - Drake. What is it with this weird notion people have that cutting trees down destroys the planet..? Burning wood is carbon neutral (given that you plant new trees, which all civilized countries do, but moronic rain forest burners don't), and making building materials out of wood is way less energy intensive than for example steel or concrete... The gas burned during that single takeoff probably produced more carbon dioxide than cutting down those trees would have.
The feminist says the plane is being raped.
+Tjita1 ::Also, if you go on the NASA web site and search a little, you can find charts on where fires, caused by lightning strikes, are burning by the thousands all over the world. Just look at Africa as an example. The point is that what man does to the Earth, is nothing compared to what nature does to her.
+martysk8r But no one listens to the engineer till people die, then someone loses their engineering licence.
I’m an ex-Australian Military Pilot (C130A&H and UH-1H Iroquois), and a former QANTAS Captain (B747, B767 & A330).
Sharing videos like this WILL save lives. Being human, none of us are perfect ... we all make mistakes (God knows I’ve made more than the average Joe).
But thanks to sharing our Aviation scary stories, we educate the next generation of Aviators.
Never be afraid to admit to others in our industry that you made a mistake.
And continue to pass your learning experiences onto those who fill the vacancies that our retirements create.
You’re not Australian any longer??😉✌️
Let me rephrase that for you. I'm an Australian ex military pilot and...(continued as before.) You can thank my obsessive compulsive need to read correct English. Something happened to my brain after I cronked it the last time. Sorry. And we all make mistakes. You have an impressive flight history too. Thanks bro.
For those who are discussing the reason the pilot and passenger laughed. There is a big difference between the nervous "man we just screwed up" laugh that these men did, and a laugh of pure "hey I'm having fun screw the rules joy"! I thank these men for putting their video out here to help others to not do what they did in this extreme. Most safety rules are written in someones blood, so I am sure glad that this one didn't have to be whether by luck or not. And again, thank you for sharing it with us. It's videos like this that teach all of us in GA to be safer, but they also teach us why the fundamental rules of flying are in place.
EXACTLY! You probably have saved lives by now.
Could of sworn I felt pine needles tickling my ass.
Yeah and that is NOT a good feeling
@@8aleph 👁👄👁
😂
My old flight instructor told me more than once that speed kills in a vehicle, speed saves in an airplane. Words to live by.
Good video. Thanks for posting.
With conditions as they were, he could have increased the odds by taking off earlier in the morning, at the coolest time of the day.
"Things we are not doing, again!" Brilliant.
I concur
Marginal conditions, per calculations, either wait for better conditions or truck and trailer the damned thing to where conditions are certain.
Brilliant but just saying..if he had not made it he would not be doing it again either!
Thank you!!! This guy has excellent videos regarding the somewhat under looked, but common situations that any pilot may encounter...
Love your videos about personal minimums. Too many people get into trouble because of no personal minimums. Well done.
Scariest part is that he knew he was cutting it close before he rolled, and did it anyway!
He had the brains to recognise that gaining airspeed by keeping frighteningly low was the way to survive a close call. Are you qualified Diesel?
Thanks for the great video! You've done a justice to this. Hope others can learn too!
The only reason he made it out is because the other crashes had clipped the tops on those trees.
+Shawn Swigart LOL
+Shawn Swigart HAHAHAHAHA
+Shawn Swigart LMAO!!!!
smart😁
Why don't they just trim the tops of all those trees at the end, make a safe corridor through the forest?
This is a good video to share. I'm sure there have been plenty of times like this where it did not go so well. Thanks for all of your videos!
He could have waited until dawn the next morning when the density altitude would have been more favorable. Get-home-itis can be deadly.
+Milosz Ostrow Makes me think of Randy Hughes in 1963. He had a national treasure aboard and only had 44 hours of flight time.
***** - Hughes had 44 hours in the Piper PA-24 Comanche in which the fatal crash occurred, but about 160 hours total logged flight time. Even so, he was still a low-time pilot.
I read where Dottie west also overheard a call between Charlie and Patsy backstage in Kansas City. He told her that one of the babies was sick and he was tired of baby sitting. He wanted her home fast.
She had a bad cold and was going to ride home with others in a station wagon.
I also read that Randy was only VFR rated
and with the storm he was flying in he needed to be IFR rated. This accident should have never happened.
I think he had rotate to soon-itis. To me it appears he road the stall horn from liftoff all thru climb out. As we all know, that's not best climb. He still had a good 600 foot of runway to get the airspeed for best climb. I know it may sound like Monday quarterbacking, but he obviously wasn't following the poh of the stall horn was going thru-out climb. It's tempting to keep pulling back, and obviously he resisted the urge to pull it beyond a stall, best climb varies plane to plane but usually around 1.5 vso.
+akfiremedic yup,, He needs to hold 5 knot above stall speed a little bit longer....
I have thousands of hours flying (in the back of 141's and c-130's as a loadmaster) but I have just recently moved up front and am currently working on my private license.I've read all of the negative comments below and I don't know all of the details used that went into the decision to fly but I do appreciate that the pilot wanted to share. That is how we all get better. Share and learn from others experiences as well as our own. One of the things I think is cool with the aviation community is that we are so open to critique and are willing to take input from others.
Greg Foulks Cool! That's the way i look at it too.
@Terry Melvin damned lucky and some decent skills in finding a hole in the trees, before he made a scratch in the ground.
Thanks for sharing and the reasoned perspective. Takeoff calcs also assume that your engine doesn't hiccup at a critical stage.
As a glider pilot, speaking more about landings, the faith of power pilots in the continued uninterrupted performance of their engines always surprises me, as they drag it in, low & slow.
lautoka63 What is it they say about the difference between ordinary pilots and test pilots? The ordinary one is surprised when the engine stops ,the other when it keeps going!
One thing my BX rated CFI told me was "always leave yourself an out". Never back yourself into a corner. It has stood me good in over 40 years of flying. Some say to me your too careful, my reply, you can never be too careful with peoples lives. Like my instructor once said to me "your always better off down here wishing your up there, than being up there wishing you were down here". Good words from a very wise guy
Excellent video and a real contribution to flight safety...reminder that potential disaster is always only seconds away and there are no second-chances to rethink poor decisions or revisit poor planning...
> Short runway
> Treetops at the end of the runway
> This must be default FSX.
"Experience, that thing you gain right after you needed it."
Very cool video.
Ryan Powell 'zactly1 That's a good way of putting it :)
Fly safe.
Hey man. Thank you very much for sharing this footage. Something very similar happened to me once while going around at an an airport with a very short runway in high density altitude. I was flying a C152, and I also had to turn and fly through a gap between trees, then managed to make another turn to avoid a power pole, with the stall horn coming on and off, worse than what you hear in this video. As soon as I made it to 200ft, the plane started to climb normally. Certainly very scary, but a lesson was learned. Thanks for sharing. We all learn from watching things like this. You made a very good point when u said that just because the numbers say that the plane can take off, it doesn't mean that it will. In the case of this video, the plane did take off just like the pilot predicted!!! But the climb performance was at the very minimum and he did not expect that, as I guess few would! Excellent point and I had not thought about it in that perspective. Thx for sharing.
Fantastic video to watch for a new pilot, good lesson to learn via youtube rather than in the plane.
Thanks for the quote "Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives the test first and the lesson after" I have never heard that one. As Chris is concerned I have saying i like "I rather be lucky than good".
B Winford There's another one about avoiding testing your superior skills, by using superior judgment.
A Norwegian proverb is similar. "Experience is the best teacher, but the the tuition is expensive".
I agree with Bruce. I have read and also heard in conversations countless times (and my personal experience corroborates) that the period between some 500 hrs and 1000 hrs is the most dangerous part of a pilot's career. Most pilots in this experience range end up doing something that really, really scares the h*ell out of them which becomes a very major wake-up call. After this phase they err more on the caution/safety side and don't feel as compelled to "get there", and tend to use more judgment over skill.
I must say, he had his balls screwd on tight, nerves in check, focus true, and a very level head. Way to work that out! Nothing but RESPECT!!
I'm not a pilot dude but I do appreciate the you uploading these vids. Fly safe :)
Good piloting is dealing correctly with hairy situations. Really good piloting is avoiding hairy situations in the first place.
AMEN Trouble usually only comes to those who look for it for the "adventure" rather than avoidence
Some hairy situations are unavoidable, that was a paved runway he was flying off of, so obviously aircraft have been operating there.
could have been the first takeoff form that runway
No, you're wrong. it was avoidable. you never HAVE to take off. he could have waited for a day with a stronger headwind or a lower density altitude. he also could have not put in as much fuel, or left a passenger behind.
I say all this as someone whose no "safety-first sissy", you should see some of the shit we do in gliders along the appalachians. but no flight is worth my life.
Actually, good piloting is dealing with airy situations!
Things we are NOT doing again....ha ha
Understatement of that year!
Very foolish pilot! He should be ashamed to have put his passenger(s) at risk.
Nothing like having some of the tallest trees right on the threshold of the runway and a sign of poor airfield safety maintenance!! Thanks for another great VLOG.
Excellent analysis. And adding a 50% buffer to the calculations is going to be a hard and fast rule for me, too.
I thought I recognized Chris's voice at first. This was SUPER SCARY! He did an awesome job at staying cool and guiding the aircraft into the area with the lowest obstacles. Kudos to Chris for staying cool. Bad situation to be in but still Kudos to Chris for staying cool.
Thanks, John.
South Lake Tahoe airport had so many density altitude crashes, they put up a very large sign that takes the air temp, humidity, and calculates the density altitude.
Density Altitude is ..... feet.
The local news recorded planes taxing by the sign, seeing the calculated altitude and taxing back to the flight line.
Great video! Those who do not learn from mistakes, whether ours or someone else is destine to repeat them.
the story of the knowns.....Knows the area, knows the aircraft, knows the gaps and where to head to if thing don't pan out, Knows the upper operational limits of self and machine....still bloody major sphincter factor overload!...Nice one chops!
The entire time I'm watching this, I'm thinking to myself "Come on thread the needle! Not gonna die today!"
Props to this guy for not turning his Bonanza into an over powered chainsaw.
SciGuy 'zactly
I apologize if your commenters already addressed this but I want to point out something. In short field flying your performance for take off is runway distance. Notice in the video that the stall horn is on at mid field. Looking over the nose, How much runway remained in this video? The pilot was demanding max angle out of the aircraft. If the pilot had remained in ground effect and accelerated using runway remaining then energy would have been built up in the wing and the pilot has more options. In the United States there basically is no more short field runways with 50 foot trees on the end anymore because people have knocked the trees all down. Having accelerated with more speed the aircraft using runway distance remaining, the pilot could change speed for altitude and provided a safer altitude margin over the trees at the end of the runway. The worst case scenario in this example is that, what would have happened if there was a downdraft near the tree line and you were climbing at Vx? Now there is no margin for error and the outcome would have been totally different. Nice job on the video.
Thanks, and yes, lots going on here - Chris definitely admits to not having done it right by any means...
He breaks it down in great detail at his link, which is why I didn't focus on the details here, but rather the vicseral reaction I had to seeing it, and how it made me think about my own personal mins...
This video is meant to be the start to a conversation pilots can have with themselves, or their instructors.
Absolutely, stall warning going off half way down the strip??? Give the aircraft a chance, use the runway, airspeed, airspeed , airspeed.
You are definately right!!!!!
Good advice. There`s a fine margin betweengetting it right and getting it wrong . I agree he should have accelerated in ground effect-aiming at the tress at the end of the runway-almost like playing chicken, you then "pop up' at the last moment. If by then you can see you are not going to make it-kick in another notch of flap-which pops you up just that extra bit. Problem then is, you are on the wrong side of the drag curve and pretty much need to slowly accelerate away whilst slowly reducing flaps on the other side of the trees(often scraping trees as you accelrate away). Takes sensitive flying as the aircraft will want to sink as flaps are taken away. Worked in Zambia in the bush, on dirt strips and 38 plus degrees celcius. My teacher(with 4000 plus hours used to trade reduced drag for ground friction) by applying take-off flap half way down the runway-this is controversial, but I took up this technique. it seemed to work, the hotter the season got-debatable though.
Hi Flightchops, great video. Thanks for you and Chris sharing it. I would say you are correct in your thought of applying individual safety factors to aircraft performance and minima but these would be mainly on account of the pilot not being current anymore, not knowing the aircraft (rental or just back from maintenance), unknown airfield etc. But under normal circumstance flying the numbers of the POH is best practise establish for this type and keeps you safe. And if you are at an unfamiliar airfield and feel suddenly bit worried rgdg obstacles, r/w length, t/o procedure etc, find a local instructor to discuss your concerns BEFORE taking of. keep flying!
Lots of good observation regarding early rotate. Just as important is getting the gear up! Flew dozens of flights out of Telluride in normally aspirated 35B. Lots of runway but plane did not want to leave ground effect in the summer until I sucked the gear up, then off she went. 24V system is even better, gear is up fast!
Thank You for sharing this footage. You might have saved somebody life.
I'm hoping so. Lots to learn here!
I discovered your channel a few days ago, and wow these have got to be the best flying videos I have seen. I've been a pilot and instructor for nearly 20 years. I have tried making some of my own videos but they are nothing like yours. Back to the topic, I don't know the background on this aircraft or the airport, but based on the video it seems to me that they might have rotated a little too early. For short fields like this, it is best to keep rolling on the hard surface and build up speed and rapidly break out of ground effect. I've taught mountain flying in the Colorado rockies, and have flown into places like Glenwood Springs in mid summer (3000 ft runway at 6000 ft elevation). In any case, it is too easy to comment these things from an armchair. Thank you for posting. This is a great demonstration of the effects of high density altitude.
Thanks so much for the friendly comment! I am humbled when instructors say they enjoy my videos.
In this specific case, the crazy thing is, it turns out that density altitude was not as big a factor as it "appears"... In the absence of most of the performance specific data, I decided not to include any specifics, and rather just used this as a "Start to the conversation" about personal performance minimums.
There were other variables at play here... But the lesson is still valid for sure.
Not sure if this applies, but there's an old saying...." The most dangerous pilot's are the ones w/ 300 hours..."
machia0705 sure does - I am in that range and I highly recommend all pilots read "the killing zone" which explores this issue.
@@machia-mw1lm Not just pilots. Operating any new equipment is scary, then a few hundred hours later overconfidence kicks in. Fear is gone. Woo-Hoo! This is the dangerous operator, not the cub with 15 hours. Great video, took guts to release it so others can learn. :)
Close call! I had almost the exact same thing happen to me when I was younger, but I was riding a Big Wheel. That whole gravity thing is nothing to mess around with.
I had to write that quote down as well. Very very true!
In such a situation, fly with the fuel you need (+45 minutes worth of fuel) to an alternate airport that has a longer runway. Fill up once you land there, and not have to look like a chump flying between tree tops. And pick a cooler part of the day than mid afternoon.
+Paul Bevillard Right on. Min fuel to the closest fuel stop is a GREAT idea when the numbers are close.
Paul you are correct dump everything out of the aircraft. Seats even battery if necessary and you do not needed after you started. With GPS one can reduce to less than 45 minutes. I am from Brazil and I learned th tricks with American Missionaries pilots. They are good
+Paul Bevillard I was gonna say, would not a COOLER day or as you say part of the day, give you just enough more Air density to make all the difference in the word.. Great Idea of cutting back on the fuel, to just make it to a runway which is much longer.. rather than fueling up all the way your final destination.
If you are going to those extremes then you should not be in that situation. I don't think his calculations were for an emergency landing with no fuel.
Midnight sounds about right, can't see the trees at all. ;)
Seriously, performance aircraft or not, dude was flying the needles with minimal capability to handle anything outside of performance, such as a few hundred feet more road to build velocity, before attempting to stall the aircraft at the worst possible time.
Having been a passenger in a Cessna 402 in a similar incident I can vouch for how scary this is - in my case I was one of six microlight pilots (one was also ex South African Air Force Impala jet pilot, some of us also had private pilot experience) in a chartered flight on our way home to Pretoria from a rural airshow near Alexander Bay, West Coast of South Africa, our microlights folded and stacked on a pickup following by road.
We refueled in Vryburg Airport, Vryburg, North West (check the location on Google Earth) 1200m ASL, high 30+deg C, midday in mid-summer. Hot-as-hell. The only way we got flying (the wheels were still on the runway as we crossed the numbers) was due to the gradual slope (10m in 800m) down away from the end of the runway 36 - the only reason for not going down into the town 800m further on was the slightly reduced drag as the gear retracted ... we crossed the town at less than 30m (100 ft) altitude, a third of which due to the down slope. The pilot wanted to turn away but we shouted him down to keep straight, after another two or so kilometers we had just enough airspeed to begin climbing very gradually. Imagine the hot discussion in the cabin. We discovered in that leg of the journey that the pilot had a fresh commercial license and (unbelievably) was not type rated on the 402 and had only a few hours on type. And that the turbochargers were not functioning to spec, due for service, but the mechanic had said it was OK to fly. Had there been trees, they would have burnt out too that day.
I'm surprised the trees are still standing at the end of the runway in this video - it would seem like an airfield safety requirement to me - much as I have done time standing between angry chainsaws and flourishing timber. The lesson after the test? If you charter a ride, check the pilot's credentials. If there is something questionable about the aircraft, don't get in.
Had to watch this one again. Wow. Yes, it scares the hell out of me just like I was in the left seat. You do a great job with your videos Chops! Maybe today I will GoPro some great adventure of flight. : )
Holy cow... Reminds me of the approach to Lincoln Park, NJ, which could get hairy, especially in a heavy crosswind.
Glad the pilot didn't put it in the trees.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinkin'...
+Steve McCroskey ID4? XD My thoughts too!
+Steve McCroskey RAPUNZEL RAPUNZEL
+Steve McCroskey Whatta make of this map?
Well, I can make a hat, or a broach or a pterodactyl .
How 'bout some coffee, Johnny?
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue...
Wow! That is why I don't bother with "interpolating" my performance figures. I just round everything up (worst case scenario) and add a healthy margin. Anytime a DPE asked about it, I demonstrated that I know how to do it, but then explained why I do not. These numbers are from a brand new plane with Chuck Yeager (obviously not literally he himself) flying them. The planes I fly are not new, nor am I Chuck Yeager. Great (and incredibly scary) video.
Outstanding advice! Thank you!
One of the best private plots I've ever flown with carried a scale to the ac. You and your gear were weighed before getting in.
Been there.. done that. The ink wasn't even dry on my PPSEL license when I decided to fill a 172 to the brim with passengers who lied about their weight, and a fuel load I had the FBO 'adjust' prior to the flight (They weren't happy about that...)
We made it, obviously, but I immediately headed back to the field because I could barely squeeze a +100 climb rate. In retrospect I should have burned off a LOT more fuel but my fear got the best of me.
Lesson learned.
As a 21 year Army Aviator, I'll tell you this. You said it all when you, and I'm putting our Army spin on it, said, "Experience is a tough bitch. She gives you the situation first and the lesson after." Sometimes, those lessons are only taught to the people who haven't had Lady Experience give them a real situation yet. YET.
This pilot did everything right. The numbers said it was good. Experience said it wasn't. Numbers can NEVER account for ACTUALITY. An engine that isn't performing as it should. Fuel quality. Any number of factors. But the Pilot remained calm and didn't pull back on the stick. He just did a little rudder work and kept the wings level to increase speed and still make a positive climb.
Great job.
MAyAaQNee
Maya Queen
my old instructor always told me when calculating performance, keep in mind the "book numbers" are for brand new airplanes with company test pilots.
yeah like good compression, good boost, a good prop, and probably something not well understood is fuel can be of varying quality, and the current temp may be significantly different than last AWOS report. What you really need is an airplane with significant margin for the type of flying you're going to do. I'm not crazy about recips in high mountain elevations. Just think about this being a marginal twin and losing an engine on takeoff..... forgedaboudit!
Ain't it the truth, sometimes the lesson comes at the end of your life.
I use this video all the time to show students why it's important to check take-off distance and density altitude. I pucker up each time I watch this video. It is such a close call.
Man, that was scary.
When I watch videos like this, and the 1984 crash near Tabernash, Colorado is a great example, I often try to assess, with admittedly 20/20 hindsight, when the serious problem first becomes evident and where corrective action should have been taken.
Here, this is tough one. Abort at 1:30 maybe? Or not even try it in the first place? What is scary is the thought that, if I were still flying, I could easily make this mistake and not realize it until too late.
"This is an amazing example of how calculation theory and real life application don't always line up."
That's true for anything in life...
For those asking/wondering, here's airport data This is a low altitude airport and runway 25 heads downstream...once the trees are cleared.
Airport data: 3W5 Mears Field Airport, Concrete, Washington on Skagit River flowing west.
Elevation 267’ Runway 25 length 2609’ x 60 ‘ hard surfaced, Gradient: 0.1% down(?) Obstructions: 44 ft. trees, 720 ft. from runway, 11:1 slope to clear; infrequently used road at 0 ft.
0:56 'High density altitude' - so that's bullshit, Choppy :D
The airport directory says nothing about tree height or distance at end of runway. How would you know?
Thank you for sharing this educative video.
Thanks for sharing this video. There are times when all pilots could learn a lesson or two. It is the shared flights that enhance the knowledge of others that find themselves in situations like this. To go or not to go that is the question? Did a good job and keep the nose down and fly the airplane. Navy saying, aviate, navigate, communicate. Thanks for the video.
Too many hours in the cockpit to pass judgement on this and many others. Just happy they made it out and we could learn from this. Thanks for the video mate.
This is awesome!!
Since everyone has an opinion, here's mine. :)
They left usable runway behind... Hold that baby down! Energy is your friend!
+Captain Learjet I agree with you. No allowance seemed to have been made for actual DA, and possibly the engine was not leaned for BP and we don't know the TO flap configuration he chose...however once off, his friend was altitude. He was clearly out of time, but he needed more and he needed more space, so he could have held the horn by slight dives temporarily to break incipient stalls and small zooms for more altitude to buy more time for the aircraft to continue to accelerate.. The terrain seemed to be gradually sloping, downward, and that helped. He got very close to the the trees under him. A better idea would have to tried that field in a Maule. The Bonanza is no Maule.
+William R McIntosh Just my humble addition to this: any experienced pilot has been in situations where he/she may have done things differently, after a full analysis. It's always been said there is a "fudge factor" built into the numbers by the test pilots who write the airplane flight manuals, but I can't verify that. My feeling is that the FAA procedure for short field takeoff's should be followed. Best angle of climb should be computed before take off (it's not a fixed number) and the airplane should be kept on the ground until this speed is reached. Then the plane is rotated to accelerate and maintain "best angle" until the trees are cleared. Then the airspeed is allowed to increase to best "rate" of climb once the obstacles are cleared. That is standard procedure. I don't know what speed they accelerated to before rotation but if it was the "best angle" speed, the pilot's instincts kicked in, and he successfully negotiated the space between the trees. It seems the pilot lifted off a little early, but kept the plane in ground effect, which would have allowed his plane to speed up in a level attitude; but that is not the short field procedure. The test pilots have done the math and have figured out how to do short field take offs. This goes back to before WWII. Just watch the TH-cam videos on how the pilots were trained back then. I've been in a somewhat similar situation to this case in a normalized Bonanza V35 many years ago, where I just cleared the trees. So I can attest to the pucker factor they experienced. But I agree, some extra cushion needs to be added by most of us in a critical short field situation , unless your name is Bob Hoover or someone like that. JMHO. DPA.
William R McIntosh
This very much reminds me of Prescott, AZ in the summer.... 2 of the 3 H's.... (no humidity :))
I try to never criticize someone else’s decisions, since “I” was not there, at “that” time, in “that” situation. But in this case, I see one important thing missing from the calculations - safety margin ! Glad these guys were able to chuckle this away, after they got their composure. Scary.
Holy cow. Close. Thanks for sharing
Years ago as a dumb student pilot with about 40 hours I landed our Cessna 172 at my sisters farm that the runway was a corn field and made for J3 cub's. I made it down fine but after finding no one home I got ready to depart but then it struck me...there were pine tree's about 80 feet tall at the end of the so called runway. Here I set with almost full tanks. I set for a good 5 minutes looking at the short short dirt corn field runway and the tall tall tree's at the end of the field. I taxied as far back as I could and with the tail hanging over a roadway. I remembered my short field take off and laughed as this was below short field as I had about 900 feet of runway and tall tree's Finally I got my nerve up and went for it. I cleared the top of the tree's by no more then 10 feet. I was lucky that day and learned my lesson very well. I just thank god I was flying our lighter 172 instead of our 172 Skyhawk or our 182 as neither of them would have made it, but would have been better off with our 150 I guess. I had great trust in that 172 and it never let me down even got me pass checking myself out for night flying, not on purpose I assure you, getting lost in IFR weather and having to almost declare the dreaded emergency the only thing that saved me was a good understanding controller at Andrews AFB how got a fix on me and brought me home as home was close to Andrews AFB. Due to helping my dad run our flight service and me doing a lot of flying that a student shouldn't by law been doing I ended up a student pilot with over 1000+ hours but could fly IFR and commercial all on a student ticket. Then being shot down as a door gunner in Vietnam ended my flying days. God I miss the good old days of flying
MrSkypony Wow - thanks for sharing your story!
Clearly the FAA should present you with an honorary pilot certificate.
Your path to a full ticket ended while in service to your country.
Yeeeeeeeehawwwwww
wow..great vid my friend!
thnx for watching! when are we gonna do something together? I'd like to discuss some ideas. :)
For the love of god, I don't know if I could have done as well... the urge to pull up would have been overwhelming for me. Well done dude. Well done. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
Having done a recent takeoff on a grass strip close to the margins (not quite as close as them, but still somewhat similar) I think one critical factor that experience teaches you is to stay in the game and keep flying it until you are stopped. That guy could have easily panicked, given up and accepted the trees, but he stayed focused, used his experience and kept flying and made it through.
couldn't help but laugh when he said "oookay things we are not doing again"
The moral of the story is: don't try to take-off in the middle of the day when it's hot and you are flying an overweight plane at a high altitude airport.
ding, ding ding
+Jeff Lebowski.....Well said Ski....WELL said. Ignorance can be fixed, but stupid should hurt.
Wise advice and not too hard to understand. Messing around down below tree-top level is a good recipe for a funeral.
Thanks , dude
Or: Get a chainsaw for your aircraft tool box.
That little nudge to the right at the very beginning of the take-off roll to put himself on the center-line ate up some precious acceleration.
Whoa. Thanks for sharing this.
This is a video of an accident in essence, an accident of an accident that accidently didn't happen. I am surprised I haven't seen this footage till today.
Vladimir Yesayan That's exactly how I looked at it, the first time I saw it!
Mountain rated Colorado based private pilot. We usually start our take off roll on the taxiway so we have a some speed built up when getting on the runway. (Every bit helps) See about a 3-5 knot increase in speed by the 50% mark this way.
Brought back seriously bad memories of on particular take off at Whidbey Airpark in Washington State. Things we won't be doing again!
I remember taking a 172 with a 135 hp diesel engine out of a 400 metre grass strip on a hot day, loaded to max weight. I only cleared the perimeter fence by dropping the flaps at the last minute then flying in ground effect over somebody's garden before just missing their chimney. The scary thing is, like this video, the numbers did say it could be done, but with a lower safety factor than I normally use. Always, always use the recommended safety factor and you won't go wrong.
I observe something in video that I don't see addressed in the comments, but as a power and glider pilot, it is something I am sensitive to. Looking at the vegetation on the left side of runway, I'm wondering whether it is possible that the PIC had a tail-wind for at least some portions of take-off?
Also, the PIC was committed to the take-off early in the t-o roll, and knowing that the t-o would be a close proposition from the start, I wonder whether sphincter-factor could have been reduced delaying rotation to the last moment in order to reduce induced drag inefficiencies?
I was thinking the same thing. Those trees were leaning the wrong way, and keeping it down for more speed would have increased his climb rate at the end, not that I would have attempted this take off in the first place.
Had a similar situation in a 172, me & 3 teenage boys on a intro ride into a soft field surrounded by corn. After arrival, temps increased and we departed. It was close, but thank God i fought the urge to pull up. I really doubted my calculations at a brief moment seeing the corn fields get closer, but the only option was to trust calculations, and not trust human urge. Shit!
Corn is a lot more forgiving than cedar.
Corn,cedar or flying bunny rabbits... It doesn't matter whats getting bigger in that wind screen. Ground is ground.
Those calculations are figured on a top running motor. Few are really in top notch condition. You should've put the density in there. I had a non-turbo Aztec on a farm road in Mexico at 9,600 feet. Myself flying & two contrabando commandos. Almost ate a hillside on the south end. Rurales shooting at us added to the impetus to make like a leaf & leave. Luck. Some have it. Some don't. Great video!
Love this chops, thanks for sharing this
Flew my old 1946 Ercoupe to a camp out in upper Wisconsin back in the 1980's The next morning the grass runway was pretty much flooded from heavy rain the night before. The water wasn't going to dry up anytime soon and I did not want to be stuck there so I attempted a short field take off in at least 2 inchs of water logged grass field. The Ercoupe is a very forgining little aircraft. I held the brake and revved the engine wide open with the yoke pulled back in my lap. Big trees at the end of the grass strip. headed down the runway and was not really picking up the airspeed I needed for take off. At half way point it was to late to abort take off and then my ercoupe began to nose bounce. I thought for sure I had just made a deadly mistake when the Ercoupe took to the air. No room ahead to clear the up coming trees but to the left of the runway was a gap between two trees. I banked left and made the opening and thank God I didn't pile the plane up. Was a good lesson for a young and stupid pilot at the time. When I landed for gas an hour later I must have had 200 pounds of mud caked to the belly of m y Ercoupe
+George Humphrey We've all been there. I once took off with twice the approved crosswind speed for the airplane (which didn't have that much rudder authority to begin with). Having to use the toe brakes to keep it straight for the first 50m or so should have been a clue! I made it off the ground, and never did that again.
+George Humphrey That i why a soft field t/o should have been performed, then accelerating to vx and initiate the climb.
I once heard a saying which I think fits quiet well here "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots"
I've done stupider stuff in an airplane. It's so easy to get cocky and complacent. Thanks for sharing.
I have never seen a better illustration of the difference between theory and practice. Theory said this is not a problem. Practice says, wait for more favorable conditions.
Agreed, Most would have instinctively pulled back and surely stalled.
a slight thermal gust from the wrong direction and they crash.
I think about personal minimums a lot; particularly as I only qualified last year but I think it will always be with me. And, as well as being recently qualified the weather has been unhelpful for the last 5 months so most of my flights are just maintaining currency so it's very helpful to have go no go rules. My thresholds will change as I become more competent. Thanks for the sharing the vid though.
That's crazy! I've been in a similar situation doing a soft field takeoff in a Piper Cherokee 140. When I rotated I had to immediately peel out to the left to avoid hitting a hill in front of me. Its scary stuff!
Would've started on the grass at the end. Def 50% added. Jesus.
I owned a Grumman Yankee that loved pavement. I can easily relate to this. The end of the runway is NOT a happy view.
Did that in Truckee once. Nice job staying composed.
Great vid. Have been in similar situations a few times.
i tell ya from exp my dad had a 68 150 cessna took his 300+ pound buddy for a ride around the patch. not thinkin about he weighs 240 himself as a pilot or the fact it was 92 deg out in a colorado summer. we were at crosson\sterling municipal ap. so he does his ramp check rolls rw 15 balls to the wall at the end is all open field so he figured he had plenty of room to clear keep in mind highway 14 runs perpendicular to runway just like 100 ft past run way 15 when he got to the end runway due to all the weight was only able to get wheels on fixed gear five foot off the ground. but when he got to the fence he flaired a little in hand stalled caught his tie down loop for the elevator and rudder on the bob wired fence it didnt cause a wreck but some property damage for sure. so he got past that an kept on in hopes he could get some alt. in which he did obtain. approx. 100 ft. by the time he got turned around for his final which it took about 10 miles to obtain. was so over weight he claimed the only time he wasnt almost full throttle. was after skwak touchdown. which in all my time never seen smoke come from tires but this time touchdown wa so hard and so many knots speed. remeber my dad taxi over to hangar shut down got out and kissed the ground according to him he had to dodge numerous power lines had to go under 4 sets of power lines. an diverted is best out of that. always remember a comfortable pilot = death my butt puckered that day. as a un seasond pilot myself never seen something so scary.
LOL!
"Things we are not doing again...!"
Thanks to you and Chris for posting this. My comments are based on the slightly longer version of the video with Chris's linked article. As Chris indicates in his article, the conditions for this takeoff probably looked fine based on the performance information in the POH: 267 foot field elevation, 2,600 foot runway, descending terrain off the departure end, a few tall trees at a little over 3,000 feet from the threshold of runway 25, 10 - 15 knots of wind down the runway (a guess based on the two windsocks, flag flying next to the hangar, and the vegetation moving around the runway). I agree with Chris and a commenter to his article who flies from this airport regularly: I think the main culprit here was the big hill southwest of the airport. On a breezy day like that there was probably some rotor and generalized turbulence flowing over that airport in the wake of that hill. The trees around the runway and the two windsocks seemed to be showing some strong gusts and wind shifts. Based on the stall horn his airspeed may have been below Vx, but there must have been a healthy downdraft there to keep a Bonanza from climbing out of ground effect at 267 feet MSL. The lessons I see here are beware hilly terrain near the airport if there is a breeze, and an airport in a valley counts as mountain flying even though you are at a normal field elevation.
I did one of these stupid maneuvers once in 1993 flying a 69 C150G out of a Martha Lake Airport WA, (defunct now). The runway was full of pot holes and crumbling tarmac and something like 1000'?. It is also was surrounded by very tall trees all quadrants ; I did a rough field/Short field take off and by the hair of my butt barely cleared the trees. Apparently the trees were shorter when they built the field and never bothered to update FACD. I was a pretty new pilot then...pinched some holes in that seat for sure! :)
He made a wise comment at the beginning when he said, "Things to never do again."
I've watched this video 1000 times, shown it to fellow pilots and still cringe when he hits Vr thinking he's not going to make it. I'm glad my home airport has a 7,000 foot runway and this just isn't a problem.
Length of runway is irrelevant if density height is too high for the right amount of lift for take off
@@johnchalk9338 - Length is not entirely irrelevant when aborting the takeoff.
I think the pilot did a good job here. (I am ~1300hr multi/com/ins/acro pilot and fly exclusively in mountain terrain and backcountry stuff). I use a different short field method, and I did not see the field from above here so I may be way off base. But I would have added at least 15 or 20kts using the taxiway and done a start from the perpendicular taxiway, then making the corner as wide as possible. With this method you are at the takeoff roll start point with a lot of extra speed. No matter what, this pilot pulled it off. Well done.
It could be a win/ win for all as some have said take a few weekends and cut a few tree's down just in case one of the planes bast there lose an engine at the point of no RR or still low and slow as they say and need a clear path to set down or gain a little more airspeed for climb out
Thanks for sharing and your take on it. For your tips may just save a life someday