To each his own. What's REALLY fascinating about the internal arts is how the Chinese concept and words for "meditation" get transported to the West in ways that completely mangle the meaning. Anyway, you have to do your thing. You believe; that's OK. Beliefs are not truths; remember that. btw, I think it's fine if someone wants to meditate, but when people start gushing about how "meditation" is a vital part of the Internal Arts, my radar goes up. There IS meditative standing, etc.
seems to me the whole point of the discussion is to improve our capacity to understand and therefore develop internal skill in fighting and in life. most people are not really interested in meditation,and like to minimize it, but I really don't think it helps anyone to ignore the fact that this stuff is all about the mind. cant grow a tree without roots and a trunk. kicking ass is a beautiful flower, but it needs the roots. best of training.
Circle Walking is Ch'an/Zen meditation ala sesshin practice in zendos. Except you are combining it with the structural integrity praticises essential in all internal martial arts. It is extremely potent as a qigong practice and in refining your awareness for combat.Everything at the root has the same discipline with the breath and rooting in the body.
I'm pretty sure that Dr. Xie practiced meditation. I never practiced with him direct, but a lot of the guys in the US Yin Bagua have. I'll ask around about this to see if some qualifications can come out of it. From the view point of JS, it would be possible (I'm sure someone has) to not pracitce meditation but to practice the martail drills of Bagua and achieve a meditative state. Do we have to define meditation? I know I've had some pretty transcendent moments in my Bagua practice.
That's the beauty of martial arts, there are always ample opportunitites to test your knowledge and skill in formal and informal situations. It's easy to quickly develop a reputation as someone who knows, or does not know.
Thank you! When I visit Beijing again someday I will check it out. The bookstore is in the temple or near it? Do you remember the name of the bookstore?
Sun Zhi Jun who is considered a national treasure from the Cultural Ministry in Bagua does not do any Taoist meditation and considering he studied under Cheng Ting Huas son and nephew I would think he would have a clear understanding of the system I had asked him many questions regarding circle walking , history etc . He is very practical and believes in very hard and discipline practice and no magical bs . He is 80 + and still teaches and trains. His skill is extraordinary.and his back is perfectly straight at his age.
+Leung Jan Actually I would not, but I believe that to be truly practical is to remove oneself from the equation, which becomes mystical in the truest sense…. So your warning is heard but there one could make the opposite comment : let's not be obsessed with the form so as to lose the sense of our lives...Middle path? Finally I will quote Ming liu on the quest for perfection: "It is important to understand that participation in any of the Asian contemplative traditions is not simply a means to achieve expertise - it is committing to a life-long path of self-cultivation. In Asian traditions, education is not only a method of gaining knowledge, but also of developing empathy and a way to artfully express that empathy in the world. Empathy develops when we abandon the notion that expertise is a kind of perfection. In fact, recognizing that we are irreversibly the way we are is a truly great accomplishment. As it turns out, great accomplishment does not offer certainty.”
the meditation elements of bagua are done WHILE PRACTICING and are practiced AFTER you get a good handle on the movement, its martial function, and its energetic function. it means you practice MORE bagua, not less. that's why I am bothering to keep up this post, I really get the sense you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and might actually really dig the challenge and benefit of this important part of BGZ. if not you, then some other MA nut.
@HolyGroup i think the discussion was regardin whether BGZ has meditation practices as a part of the training. both my teachers taught mindfulness/meditation practices within the physical practices, and said they were practiced as a part of BGZ, since dong hai chuan. JS disagrees, quite strongly. I think he's against the idea that it's essential to leaning how to fight, which id agree if you only want to get decent at it, but disagree if you want to get as good as possible.
Bagua is very deep and ancient, some claim the art could be over 5,000 years old. The origin I learned is that it came from Taoist Monasteries in the Kunlun mountains and started first as a meditation practice.
that's not really true. you can get pretty good without any meditation, but if you really want to get it, meditation is a part of the package, just like aerobic training is a part of the MMA package. the internal arts were developed based on taoist energy and mind principles. if you just like to fight, take the internal out, and your very correct. you don't need to meditate to fight. but without meditation, you don't really get internal.
If the argument is whether the mind can help the fighter execute better practice (deepen the practice), where is the argument? Because, certainly, for someone who has experienced the mind affect their martial art, there is no question that a meditative mind is a help not a hindrance. With all the reference to Taoist and Buddhist interplay with Chinese martial arts, isn't it obvious meditative mind was used and used with good affect. Bruce Lee: "absorb what is useful, release what is not."
perhaps you might look for a bagua tradition that has maintained the meditation practices.. both of the lineages I have studied are clear that the were initiated by taoists who were engaged in meditation and energy work, and that more "practical" people learned from them and adapted it into what we now know as BGZ if you want to grow a big tree, you need big roots. moving meditation is at the "root" of BGZ. it's too bad people don't "get" this at high levels, sport/fight/life are about mind...
I have the opposite problem, my practice of Bagua is all the meditation side, I wouldn't use it to fight at all. I use Arnis for that, it is extremely fast and known effective.
I don't agree. There are standing exercises that clear the mind, but they are not indicated as specific "meditation" skills. Also, the internal arts were developed by very pragmatic soldiers, caravan protectors, and others who had unique insights into how the body works. Of course, there is a strong element of Buddhism and Taoism in China, and it permeates all activities, including business. It's really a shame that Westerners don't "get" this. That's why there are so many "New Age" players.
Not true- at all. What is it that Buddhist's say? " The one is in the many, and the many is in the one". Yoga/Ashtanga/Kundalini, Japanese Zazen, Chinese Mahayana/Therevada Buddhism ALL have the same breath retention, breathing exericises, meditation exercises but simply present them in a different way (using their culture's language and descriptive terms). How can you say Zazen is the only effective meditation for pugilistic purposes when Zazen's roots are in Chinese- and the Chinese in Indian?
the funny part, js, is you didn't ask who I studied with or what I learned. if you were honestly interested in the subject, you probably would have asked about where I found it. that's what I did, I didn't get it, but I kept an open mind, and eventually, I found... bruce frantzis zhang jie these cats do exactly what you are saying isn't done. if you love bagua, why not learn all you can, instead of playing that sour grapes card???
para los dos esto le vaa serrar un montón yo practique pa-kua y en la meditación yo me levite y puedo ver el aura de las personas ( gracias y mil disculpa ) soy walter ramirez de gualegaychu argerntina pueden explicar lo acontecido
ive had the opportunity to study under top taiji, hsing-I and bagua men, and it's been explained to me that hsing-i does not have a meditation aspect. but that bagua very much does. studying it, I found it to be MUCH more sophisticated and developed than our own mind sciences. to be clear, bagua came from a meditation tradition, and I can say that cause I study it, I have taught it to people, and seen the profound effects. ever heard of "sour grapes"? go get a ladder..
actually, bruce has a very classical teacher of the internal arts. but let's just say you don't dig bruce, fine. Zhang Jie is for sure a south district lineage master, Liu Bin-cheng lineage, and he teaches meditation methods for BGZ as well. so insults and pissing contest aside, im pointing out that bagua has a meditation tradition, and if you want to get the most out of BGZ, learning it would be of great benefit. but I don't think you want to hear that. best of training
Sorry, unless you are doing something akin to Rinzai Zen, it's not meditation. If you ARE doing that, so be it. That said, it's not part of the traditional curriculum - i.e. it's not fundamental to good internal arts.
JS, you really don't know who I am or what I do. I quite possibly have read your research on oxygen consumption in brain, and in fact most all physiology research in relationship to mind and brain has crossed my desk. ive also met an incredible number of people like what you talk about. however, you have not had the chance to study with some of the folks I have studied with, or you would be a little open minded to the possibility that the good sh%t might be out there. cause it is. good day.
"I found that the existing English translation of this book was heavily edited,leaving out an entire chapter on Taoist meditation." That's because Taoist meditation is not essential to the internal martial arts!
It's always a choice to accept criticism as an insult. It's also a choice to believe one thing, or another. That said, making a choice for oneself doesn't make that choice a universal for others. Too many internal arts practitioners - even high level teachers - approach their practice (or *promote* their practice) as a religion, with esoteric, highfalutin "special sauces". This stuff has polluted the internal arts for years, and it's just starting to wash out. Good luck, and have fun.
You can do Bagua as a purely fighting art with no meditative component at all. Liang style would be the way to go for that. What I have found is that although the meditation helps a lot in general, there is little overlap with the fighting side in terms of specific training and technique. But you can do anything as a meditation. Bagua is a Taoist art, but you don't have to practice Taoism to do Bagua, it also sounds like you ran into a bad weirdo teacher who was interested in getting disciples, not students. The physical aspects of the art at the beginning level are pretty simple and straightforward. And, I have found most Bagua practitioners and teachers intolerant of B.S. and fakes, there is a swift remedy for frauds.
I find it partly insulting and partly funny that you cannot accept that I practice something you have chosen to disbelieve. most MA folks don't enjoy meditation, so it's true that most don't do it. but 1000 people saying there's not meditation tradition to bagua don't counter 1 person who's learned it, and can do it. the "smart boy" asks how, not why or if.
Bruce may not be the right teacher for everyone, there are other Bagua teachers out there. If he's not the right teacher for you, I would recommend Tom Bisio or Ted Mancuso. Kent Howard is also in the Wang Shujin lineage, his books and DVDs are excellent and will really help solidify practice.
Also if you are knowledgeable enough in Bagua to question Bruce, you should definitely teach and offer online training. I would love to check it out if that happens. And if you see anyone training or teaching this art in Central Park in New York City, they will most likely be willing to cross hands with you.
some may can read the wu linn magazines former from hong kong else too sorry most ready worth kommentairies here under this worthy titel yeah thanks again
you have criticized the martial arts community, but your comments to me were mostly insults. there is a functional difference. "belief's are not truths" insult ""unique" another insult. which is fine, but the point you can't accept, which is my criticism of you, is that other people have found something you don't believe is possible, and instead of finding out more, you dismiss and insult. that's not smart, and that's not gonna get anyone to a better understanding of bagua. just saying
and so it goes. I have felt and seen really good hsing-i teachers. Most of them didn't say a word about meditation. In the West there is an emphasis on the "New Age" in the internal arts. It's mostly BS. btw, I'm a cognitive scientist and very much into the benefits of meditation, but saying that meditation, per se, is integral to the internal arts is just plain wrong. Again, Taoism and Buddhism permeate Chinese culture, so anyone can say that anything Chinese has a "meditative" component.
Hsing-I is not known as meditative, but Bagua began as a meditation method and the fighting applications grew out of that. I use it for meditation and don't fight with it at all.
I have criticized that part of the martial arts community that has gone off the NEW AGE deep end, selling non-authenticity. We don't agree. Better understanding of bagua? PRACTICE! Meditation is a side dish, and not essential to ANY Chinese internal martial art. Anyone "selling" that approach is either trying to make a buck, or make themselves feel special - to themselves, and/or others. PRACTICE!
I find myself walking the circle a lot these days, after about 30-45 minutes it gets meditative whether I'm trying to meditate or not. A lot of what you are saying here seems anti-meditation in general, you must have had a bad experience with a whacko fraudulent teacher. I've been lucky to find only good ones so far, but I'm sure there are plenty of fakes out there. You can learn it completely on your own as well but I would not recommend it.
Hands of real master pa kua is a silver-green this guys have normal white hands. Real pa kua is dead and today we see new tehnics... Original tehnics pa kua, wing chun and others old tehnics are changed.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 83 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "พันฤทธิ์ vs ซุปเปอร์บอล วันของโอม MBK"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1b4pkKHa_Fk/mqdefault.jpg)
To each his own. What's REALLY fascinating about the internal arts is how the Chinese concept and words for "meditation" get transported to the West in ways that completely mangle the meaning. Anyway, you have to do your thing. You believe; that's OK. Beliefs are not truths; remember that. btw, I think it's fine if someone wants to meditate, but when people start gushing about how "meditation" is a vital part of the Internal Arts, my radar goes up. There IS meditative standing, etc.
master shao zhao ming was a student of zhang tong and is teaching in victoria australia - he is very good master ! bagua gua zhang .
I heard of him, is he still teaching
seems to me the whole point of the discussion is to improve our capacity to understand and therefore develop internal skill in fighting and in life.
most people are not really interested in meditation,and like to minimize it, but I really don't think it helps anyone to ignore the fact that this stuff is all about the mind. cant grow a tree without roots and a trunk. kicking ass is a beautiful flower, but it needs the roots.
best of training.
Amazing vídeo thanks a lot shifu.
Circle Walking is Ch'an/Zen meditation ala sesshin practice in zendos. Except you are combining it with the structural integrity praticises essential in all internal martial arts. It is extremely potent as a qigong practice and in refining your awareness for combat.Everything at the root has the same discipline with the breath and rooting in the body.
I'm pretty sure that Dr. Xie practiced meditation. I never practiced with him direct, but a lot of the guys in the US Yin Bagua have. I'll ask around about this to see if some qualifications can come out of it. From the view point of JS, it would be possible (I'm sure someone has) to not pracitce meditation but to practice the martail drills of Bagua and achieve a meditative state. Do we have to define meditation? I know I've had some pretty transcendent moments in my Bagua practice.
to each his own... mind is important; it's everything - including self-deception
That's the beauty of martial arts, there are always ample opportunitites to test your knowledge and skill in formal and informal situations. It's easy to quickly develop a reputation as someone who knows, or does not know.
Jsphotos,, who do you study bagua with?
have the translation of Zhao Bichen's portion of Sun Xi Kun's book?
translator's note- "A very clear attempt to connect Pa Kua to religious Taoism."
Thank you! When I visit Beijing again someday I will check it out. The bookstore is in the temple or near it? Do you remember the name of the bookstore?
Sun Zhi Jun who is considered a national treasure from the Cultural Ministry in Bagua does not do any Taoist meditation and considering he studied under Cheng Ting Huas son and nephew I would think he would have a clear understanding of the system I had asked him many questions regarding circle walking , history etc . He is very practical and believes in very hard and discipline practice and no magical bs . He is 80 + and still teaches and trains. His skill is extraordinary.and his back is perfectly straight at his age.
+Leung Jan Do you mean daoist meditation is magical bs?
Daoist Meditation is not BS however most people's understanding of it and how it relates to Baguazhang is bs.
+Leung Jan Ok, I will not argue with you on this.
Why would you argue ?
+Leung Jan Actually
I would not,
but I believe that to be truly practical is to remove oneself from the equation, which becomes mystical in the truest sense….
So your warning is heard but there one could make the opposite comment : let's not be obsessed with the form so as to lose the sense of our lives...Middle path?
Finally I will quote Ming liu on the quest for perfection:
"It is important to understand that participation in any of the Asian contemplative traditions is not simply a means to achieve expertise - it is committing to a life-long path of self-cultivation. In Asian traditions, education is not only a method of gaining knowledge, but also of developing empathy and a way to artfully express that empathy in the world. Empathy develops when we abandon the notion that expertise is a kind of perfection. In fact, recognizing that we are irreversibly the way we are is a truly great accomplishment. As it turns out, great accomplishment does not offer certainty.”
the meditation elements of bagua are done WHILE PRACTICING and are practiced
AFTER you get a good handle on the movement, its martial function, and its energetic function.
it means you practice MORE bagua, not less.
that's why I am bothering to keep up this post, I really get the sense you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and might actually really dig the challenge and benefit of this important part of BGZ. if not you, then some other MA nut.
@HolyGroup i think the discussion was regardin whether BGZ has meditation practices as a part of the training. both my teachers taught mindfulness/meditation practices within the physical practices, and said they were practiced as a part of BGZ, since dong hai chuan. JS disagrees, quite strongly. I think he's against the idea that it's essential to leaning how to fight, which id agree if you only want to get decent at it, but disagree if you want to get as good as possible.
Bagua is very deep and ancient, some claim the art could be over 5,000 years old. The origin I learned is that it came from Taoist Monasteries in the Kunlun mountains and started first as a meditation practice.
@@Chunda8 me too.
that's not really true.
you can get pretty good without any meditation, but if you really want to get it, meditation is a part of the package, just like aerobic training is a part of the MMA package.
the internal arts were developed based on taoist energy and mind principles.
if you just like to fight, take the internal out, and your very correct. you don't need to meditate to fight.
but without meditation, you don't really get internal.
If the argument is whether the mind can help the fighter execute better practice (deepen the practice), where is the argument? Because, certainly, for someone who has experienced the mind affect their martial art, there is no question that a meditative mind is a help not a hindrance. With all the reference to Taoist and Buddhist interplay with Chinese martial arts, isn't it obvious meditative mind was used and used with good affect. Bruce Lee: "absorb what is useful, release what is not."
perhaps you might look for a bagua tradition that has maintained the meditation practices..
both of the lineages I have studied are clear that the were initiated by taoists who were engaged in meditation and energy work, and that more "practical" people learned from them and adapted it into what we now know as BGZ
if you want to grow a big tree, you need big roots.
moving meditation is at the "root" of BGZ.
it's too bad people don't "get" this
at high levels, sport/fight/life are about mind...
I have the opposite problem, my practice of Bagua is all the meditation side, I wouldn't use it to fight at all. I use Arnis for that, it is extremely fast and known effective.
I don't agree. There are standing exercises that clear the mind, but they are not indicated as specific "meditation" skills.
Also, the internal arts were developed by very pragmatic soldiers, caravan protectors, and others who had unique insights into how the body works. Of course, there is a strong element of Buddhism and Taoism in China, and it permeates all activities, including business.
It's really a shame that Westerners don't "get" this. That's why there are so many "New Age" players.
what is the name of this book that you are introducing? i would like to read it. thanks
Lion Books has it in Taiwan
Pa Kua chang with wilson Pitts avasilable at the estore on sacredpeaks website- see description for more
Veo algo de wu dang muy bonito. ill study further on this art
Where did you get a paper copy of this book?
Not true- at all. What is it that Buddhist's say? " The one is in the many, and the many is in the one". Yoga/Ashtanga/Kundalini, Japanese Zazen, Chinese Mahayana/Therevada Buddhism ALL have the same breath retention, breathing exericises, meditation exercises but simply present them in a different way (using their culture's language and descriptive terms). How can you say Zazen is the only effective meditation for pugilistic purposes when Zazen's roots are in Chinese- and the Chinese in Indian?
I produced this video,anyone familiar with the set?
+taiji coach watch myspace video to see real bagua
This seems a little like the LBRP 😊🙏🏻❤️93’s
and in reference to this video, check out the post from downloader.
the book has a section on taoist meditation.
go figure.
the funny part, js, is you didn't ask who I studied with or what I learned.
if you were honestly interested in the subject, you probably would have asked about where I found it.
that's what I did, I didn't get it, but I kept an open mind, and eventually, I found...
bruce frantzis
zhang jie
these cats do exactly what you are saying isn't done.
if you love bagua, why not learn all you can, instead of playing that sour grapes card???
para los dos esto le vaa serrar un montón yo practique pa-kua y en la meditación yo me levite y puedo ver el aura de las personas ( gracias y mil disculpa ) soy walter ramirez de gualegaychu argerntina pueden explicar lo acontecido
ive had the opportunity to study under top taiji, hsing-I and bagua men, and it's been explained to me that hsing-i does not have a meditation aspect. but that bagua very much does.
studying it, I found it to be MUCH more sophisticated and developed than our own mind sciences.
to be clear, bagua came from a meditation tradition, and I can say that cause I study it, I have taught it to people, and seen the profound effects.
ever heard of "sour grapes"? go get a ladder..
actually, bruce has a very classical teacher of the internal arts.
but let's just say you don't dig bruce, fine. Zhang Jie is for sure a south district lineage master, Liu Bin-cheng lineage, and he teaches meditation methods for BGZ as well.
so insults and pissing contest aside, im pointing out that bagua has a meditation tradition, and if you want to get the most out of BGZ, learning it would be of great benefit.
but I don't think you want to hear that.
best of training
Sorry, unless you are doing something akin to Rinzai Zen, it's not meditation. If you ARE doing that, so be it. That said, it's not part of the traditional curriculum - i.e. it's not fundamental to good internal arts.
JS, you really don't know who I am or what I do. I quite possibly have read your research on oxygen consumption in brain, and in fact most all physiology research in relationship to mind and brain has crossed my desk.
ive also met an incredible number of people like what you talk about.
however, you have not had the chance to study with some of the folks I have studied with, or you would be a little open minded to the possibility that the good sh%t might be out there.
cause it is.
good day.
"I found that the existing English translation of this book was heavily edited,leaving out an entire chapter on Taoist meditation." That's because Taoist meditation is not essential to the internal martial arts!
It's okay if you don't get it, nobody is going to try and make you meditate. You can do it purely as a fighting art.
It's always a choice to accept criticism as an insult. It's also a choice to believe one thing, or another. That said, making a choice for oneself doesn't make that choice a universal for others. Too many internal arts practitioners - even high level teachers - approach their practice (or *promote* their practice) as a religion, with esoteric, highfalutin "special sauces". This stuff has polluted the internal arts for years, and it's just starting to wash out. Good luck, and have fun.
You can do Bagua as a purely fighting art with no meditative component at all. Liang style would be the way to go for that. What I have found is that although the meditation helps a lot in general, there is little overlap with the fighting side in terms of specific training and technique. But you can do anything as a meditation. Bagua is a Taoist art, but you don't have to practice Taoism to do Bagua, it also sounds like you ran into a bad weirdo teacher who was interested in getting disciples, not students. The physical aspects of the art at the beginning level are pretty simple and straightforward. And, I have found most Bagua practitioners and teachers intolerant of B.S. and fakes, there is a swift remedy for frauds.
I find it partly insulting and partly funny that you cannot accept that I practice something you have chosen to disbelieve.
most MA folks don't enjoy meditation, so it's true that most don't do it.
but 1000 people saying there's not meditation tradition to bagua
don't counter 1 person who's learned it, and can do it.
the "smart boy" asks how, not why or if.
OK, that explains it. Bruce Frantzis has a very, shall we say, "unique" interpretation of the internal arts. I'll stop there
Bruce may not be the right teacher for everyone, there are other Bagua teachers out there. If he's not the right teacher for you, I would recommend Tom Bisio or Ted Mancuso. Kent Howard is also in the Wang Shujin lineage, his books and DVDs are excellent and will really help solidify practice.
Also if you are knowledgeable enough in Bagua to question Bruce, you should definitely teach and offer online training. I would love to check it out if that happens. And if you see anyone training or teaching this art in Central Park in New York City, they will most likely be willing to cross hands with you.
some may can read the wu linn magazines former from hong kong else too sorry most ready worth kommentairies here under this worthy titel yeah thanks again
you have criticized the martial arts community, but your comments to me were mostly insults. there is a functional difference.
"belief's are not truths" insult
""unique" another insult.
which is fine, but the point you can't accept, which is my criticism of you, is that other people have found something you don't believe is possible, and instead of finding out more, you dismiss and insult. that's not smart, and that's not gonna get anyone to a better understanding of bagua.
just saying
and so it goes. I have felt and seen really good hsing-i teachers. Most of them didn't say a word about meditation. In the West there is an emphasis on the "New Age" in the internal arts. It's mostly BS. btw, I'm a cognitive scientist and very much into the benefits of meditation, but saying that meditation, per se, is integral to the internal arts is just plain wrong. Again, Taoism and Buddhism permeate Chinese culture, so anyone can say that anything Chinese has a "meditative" component.
Hsing-I is not known as meditative, but Bagua began as a meditation method and the fighting applications grew out of that. I use it for meditation and don't fight with it at all.
shie shie
I have criticized that part of the martial arts community that has gone off the NEW AGE deep end, selling non-authenticity. We don't agree. Better understanding of bagua? PRACTICE! Meditation is a side dish, and not essential to ANY Chinese internal martial art. Anyone "selling" that approach is either trying to make a buck, or make themselves feel special - to themselves, and/or others. PRACTICE!
I find myself walking the circle a lot these days, after about 30-45 minutes it gets meditative whether I'm trying to meditate or not. A lot of what you are saying here seems anti-meditation in general, you must have had a bad experience with a whacko fraudulent teacher. I've been lucky to find only good ones so far, but I'm sure there are plenty of fakes out there. You can learn it completely on your own as well but I would not recommend it.
Hands of real master pa kua is a silver-green this guys have normal white hands. Real pa kua is dead and today we see new tehnics... Original tehnics pa kua, wing chun and others old tehnics are changed.