I can't speak highly enough of pianoscope. It has really transformed the way I listen to, plan for, and tune pianos. I also use it to conveniently keep track of my service visits in the notes section of the file! Very handy. Thank you for creating such an insightful, customizable, and instructive app that makes working on a piano intuitive and always educational.
I really like the features on your app, especially the gray freeze indicator. Perhaps others have mentioned this, but setting the tuning pins is a technique that goes beyond landing on the right pitch, to settling down and staying put at the right pitch. When I began tuning at age 15 almost 50 years ago, I could put a piano in tune, but it would not stay in tune for very long. Later some master technicians helped me acquire that technique, and the results have been satisfying.
This is a good point. A good tuning technique is very desirable because nothing you do to a string matters if the result is not stable. The precise feedback Pianoscope is giving you is however a good assistance for developing a reliable tuning hammer technique.
@pianoscope6345 Ich werde vielleicht ein billiges Handy kaufen, ein dediziertes Gerät, für den Gebrauch auf unserem e.V., wo es einige Klaviere gibt, die ich seit Jahren warte. Ich hatte mir schon überlegt, wer sie stimmt, nachdem ich dazu nicht mehr in der Lage bin. Mit Pianoscope könnte ich mir vorstellen, dass es einer könnte, ohne jahrelange Berufserfahrung.
@@bkmckenzie1 Pianoscope benötigt ein iPhone oder iPad, auf dem mindestens iOS 15 läuft. Dafür kommen grob die Geräte der letzten 6 Jahre in Frage. Ich habe schon von vielen Kunden das Feedback bekommen, dass sie nach ein wenig Übung mit Pianscope sehr rasch befriedigende Stimmungen hinbekommen haben.
As an amateur tuner I am really enjoying your app. Night and day difference in comparison to others I have tried, but could you explain in more detail the optimized concert pitch function ? Why is the result optimal? I have yet to use this function and didn't realize it was even available.
Thanks, I am glad you like the app. The concert pitch calculated by the optimization function is optimal in the sense that it is the one for which you need to make the fewest changes to the string tensions, so that it requires the least amount of work from the tuner. This approach is also known as "floating the pitch". Naturally it only makes sense with instruments that are not too flat. If an instrument is very flat you should use the pitch raise function.
I love the partials isolation feature, and I'm wondering, can you play intervals and listen to isolated coincident partials to hear the beat speed of the interval? This would be an awesome tool for learning aural tuning.
Yes, you can already analyze coincident patials and their beats with pianoscope. To do this, switch the partials to hold mode and play the first note of the interval. Now double-tap in the dark gray area next to the partials. pianoscope now colors the bars of the already recorded partials blue. Now play the second note of the desired interval on your instrument. Its partials will now appear in orange next to the blue bars. If you now tap a bar of a partial collision, pianoscope plays the recording of both involved partials over the speaker or a connected headphone. You can now easily identify the resulting beats. For details, check out the pianoscope manual on the website. (I cannot paste links here because then TH-cam will regard the comment as spam.)
I’m going to use your app, Frank, pone my new old piano has settle down after moving. Question: is there a way to see beating of 2 or 3 strings? I’m not sure if I can hear those ups and downs in the sound amplitude. Thanks much!
The current version of pianoscope does not have a function for visualizing beats. The next version 3 will have such a function. For a preview, check out the video "Pianoscope 3 Preview - Part 1: Time Charts" on my TH-cam channel.
@@pianoscope6345 Hello, I'm also new to this, do we need to mute the other strings when measuring the inharmonics? When tuning with the app, is it advisable to use a mute strip?
@@tomgregory8915 When you measure the inharmonicity you only need to mute if the unison is strongly out of tune. If it is only slightly out of tune, it is fine to record the full unison. If you tune with the app and if you are not in pitch-raise mode, you are free to tune in any order you like. So if you like to use a mute strip to first tune center strings and then tune the unisons later, you can do so. But if you want to tune the unisons as you go, it is also fine. In the pitch-raise mode it is different: There you need to tune in a fixed order from A0 to C8 and tune unisons as you go, so you can't use a mute strip then. This is necessary because the app needs to predict the movement of the soundboard.
Hi Frank, I'm a new piano tuner and I love the user interface and functionality of you app. While I can only afford the standard version until I start making money from this, I do hope to get the full version soon. My question to you: is there a discount when you upgrade from the Standard to Pro version, or do I have to pay full price for Pro?
Hi Benjamin, I am glad you like pianoscope. When you have the Standard version, you can always upgrade to Pro by just paying the price difference.
6 หลายเดือนก่อน
I'm trying pianoscope with my old entry level upright. It's not easy to set the strings to 0 cent, the tuning is very sensitive. What would you recommend as a reasonable cents range for a "good enough" tuning (only for homework) ?
With a bit of practice it is possible to get the strings to 0.1 Cents accuracy, especially when you use the gray freeze indicator of the pro version. But for a home tuning you're good with 0.3 Cents.
When you are measuring unisons which are strongly out of tune, you should mute them so that you only measure a single string. If the whole instrument is more than 20 cents flat or sharp and you need to do two tuning passes anyway, I recommend to re-measure the inharmonicity for the second pass, as the inharmonicity changes when you strongly lower or increase the string tensions.
When measuring, there are actually two curves: An inharmonicity curve and a pitch. You can switch between them by swiping upwards. The shape of the inharmonicity curve is determined by the factory design of an instrument. The shape of the pitch curve depends on the stretch that was chosen when the instrument was last tuned, and on the current tuning state. If an instrument is strongly out of tune, the pitch curve can have a funny, even a chaotic shape.
The inharmonicity only slightly changes with pitch/string tension. So it does not matter if a string is flat or sharp. If an instrument is strongly out of tune, like more than 20 cents, it is preferable to tune the piano twice and to re-measure the inharmonicity after the first tuning pass. But doing two passes for a pitch-raise is standard practice anyway as the soundboard and plate deform during the first pass. If the strings in a unison of a single note are more than slightly out of tune with each other, you should use a mute and let only a single string sound for the inharmonicity measurement.
6 หลายเดือนก่อน
@@pianoscope6345 I get all this, but I think I was not clear enough in my question. When recording all the keys one by one, you get a profile of all of them, but if the piano is out of tune, who do you measure / calculate inharmonicity from this data in the software ??
To be able to produce a tuning, pianoscope needs to calculate a target pitch for every note which results in the so-called tuning curve. The goal is to minimise the beating that is produced when playing intervals, by coinciding partials in the notes of that interval. This is an optimisation problem. To solve it, the app needs to know the spacings between the partials in every note. These spacings are different for every note and every instrument and are described by the so-called inharmonicity. But these spacings stay constant if you raise or lower the pitch during tuning (if you don't overdo it). So to solve the tuning curve, the app needs to pre-measure the inharmonicity of all notes. For this to work, it does not matter if the measured string is in or out of tune with other strings. The inharmonicity of a string is like a human fingerprint.
Pianoscope requires an iPhone or iPad. I currently don't have any plans to port it to Android. But you don't need the newest iPhone or iPad, just one that is able to run iOS 15 or later. There are many affordable older iOS devices which can run iOS 15.
I currently don't have any plans to port pianoscope to Android. But you don't need the newest iPhone or iPad to run the app. Every device able to run iOS 15 or later is fine. This includes old ones like iPhone 6s or iPhone SE (1st gen) which you can get very cheap on eBay.
As a fellow Android user, I picked up an older gen iPad Mini (5th) specifically for pianoscope and I love it. The stand cases are awesome, and it's a more comfortable form factor to tune from vs. a smartphone
Why do we have to measure the inharmonicities? why can´t we just tune to the specific pitches of lets say a nice sampled kawai or steinway for example?
Inharmonicities differ greatly between instruments of different brands and sizes. This means that a tuner has to find a unique tuning for every instrument. This is the case for aural tuning, too. If you simply try to apply the pitches of one instrument to another different instrument, you will in most cases end up with a bad tuning. It is even not obvious how to transfer the pitch from one instrument to the other. Which partials do you regard if they are differently spaced in the instruments? In practice on stage this is a real problem if you have two different pianos for playing a duet.
@@pianoscope6345 fascinating- so when I use piano with other instruments it will always be slightly out of tune with those? Is it only the curve at the top and bottom of the piano being affected or all notes? I still can’t wrap my head around it. This is what Entropy is trying to do too but not successful?
@@Mikas_Emil Yes, it is the same with other instruments, for example with strings. Bowed string instruments have a harmonic spectrum across the scale so that you will always hear some beating when played together with a piano. Yes, the effect of the stretching cumulates going outwards from the middle. How strong a piano tuning needs to be stretched in the bass depends on its size and the choice of pure intervals by the tuner. The spectrum of bass notes of a 3 meter grand piano is only slightly inharmonic, nearly harmonic. The smaller an instrument is, the thicker its bass strings have to be and the stronger its inharmonicity will be. The inharmonicity in the treble (and therefore also the stretch) is mostly a function of string tension and thus it depends on the design of the instrument and the choice of concert pitch, and of course the tuner's choice of which intervals to make pure. Every piano tuning has to account for inharmonicity, regardless whether it is done by ear or by software. Entropy Piano Tuner does this as well, but uses an algorithm which results in an unpredictable pattern of pure intervals. Most musicians prefer a predictable pattern of octaves, double octaves, twelfths etc.
@@pianoscope6345 Thank you so much. That is one of the best explanations I’ve had on this subject. It is still very hard for me to grasp (I am a musician, not a physicist). Does this have something to do with the partials also? Does longer strings on a grand concert piano have different partials than shorter ones? Or how do you measure this differences in inharmonicities? And how do you hear them? Lastly: do you know how companies like Keyscape (Spectrasonics) tune their pianos? Equal temperament is the single most used way right but what does it mean? Thanks so much for your insights. Greatly appreciate it and I have downloaded your app and tuned my upright 60s Kawai piano 🥳
6 หลายเดือนก่อน
I'm not a specialist in piano tuning at all, what do 10:58:46:3 etc octaves refer to ?
This is the common notation for the so-called coincident partials in octave intervals: If you play two notes simultaneously on a piano in an octave interval, the tenth partial of the lower note coincides with the fifth partial of the upper note, this is abbreviated with 10:5. These coincident partials produce beats. The tones of a piano are inharmonic, which means that the frequencies of the partials of a note are not equally spaced. Therefore, if you reduce the beating in one interval (for example 10:5) you increase the beating in another interval (for example 2:1). So the problem of tuning a piano is to find a tuning curve which reduces the beating in the most relevant tuning intervals.
6 หลายเดือนก่อน
@@pianoscope6345 much clearer. Should one focus more on the smaller ones like 2:1 which are probably louder, than the highest ones on the list ?
was für'n umständliches Programm. Genau so schlecht wie Entropie Piano Tuner. Wohl noch nie 'n richtig schlechtes Klavier gestimmt. Da kann man nämlich gar nicht alle Töne erst messen, weil die einfach nicht alle erkannt werden. Besonders im Diskant. Gute Programme können schon aus wenigen Tönen eine Kurve ableiten und mit jedem gestimmten Ton wird diese verfeinert.
I can't speak highly enough of pianoscope. It has really transformed the way I listen to, plan for, and tune pianos. I also use it to conveniently keep track of my service visits in the notes section of the file! Very handy. Thank you for creating such an insightful, customizable, and instructive app that makes working on a piano intuitive and always educational.
Thank you for the feedback. It is good to know that pianoscope is helping you in your work.
SOLD! Need an app for my G5. God bless you.
Tremendo tutorial! Mil gracias!
I really like the features on your app, especially the gray freeze indicator. Perhaps others have mentioned this, but setting the tuning pins is a technique that goes beyond landing on the right pitch, to settling down and staying put at the right pitch. When I began tuning at age 15 almost 50 years ago, I could put a piano in tune, but it would not stay in tune for very long. Later some master technicians helped me acquire that technique, and the results have been satisfying.
This is a good point. A good tuning technique is very desirable because nothing you do to a string matters if the result is not stable. The precise feedback Pianoscope is giving you is however a good assistance for developing a reliable tuning hammer technique.
@pianoscope6345 Ich werde vielleicht ein billiges Handy kaufen, ein dediziertes Gerät, für den Gebrauch auf unserem e.V., wo es einige Klaviere gibt, die ich seit Jahren warte. Ich hatte mir schon überlegt, wer sie stimmt, nachdem ich dazu nicht mehr in der Lage bin. Mit Pianoscope könnte ich mir vorstellen, dass es einer könnte, ohne jahrelange Berufserfahrung.
@@bkmckenzie1 Pianoscope benötigt ein iPhone oder iPad, auf dem mindestens iOS 15 läuft. Dafür kommen grob die Geräte der letzten 6 Jahre in Frage. Ich habe schon von vielen Kunden das Feedback bekommen, dass sie nach ein wenig Übung mit Pianscope sehr rasch befriedigende Stimmungen hinbekommen haben.
As an amateur tuner I am really enjoying your app. Night and day difference in comparison to others I have tried, but could you explain in more detail the optimized concert pitch function ? Why is the result optimal? I have yet to use this function and didn't realize it was even available.
Thanks, I am glad you like the app. The concert pitch calculated by the optimization function is optimal in the sense that it is the one for which you need to make the fewest changes to the string tensions, so that it requires the least amount of work from the tuner. This approach is also known as "floating the pitch". Naturally it only makes sense with instruments that are not too flat. If an instrument is very flat you should use the pitch raise function.
I love the partials isolation feature, and I'm wondering, can you play intervals and listen to isolated coincident partials to hear the beat speed of the interval? This would be an awesome tool for learning aural tuning.
Yes, you can already analyze coincident patials and their beats with pianoscope. To do this, switch the partials to hold mode and play the first note of the interval. Now double-tap in the dark gray area next to the partials. pianoscope now colors the bars of the already recorded partials blue. Now play the second note of the desired interval on your instrument. Its partials will now appear in orange next to the blue bars. If you now tap a bar of a partial collision, pianoscope plays the recording of both involved partials over the speaker or a connected headphone. You can now easily identify the resulting beats. For details, check out the pianoscope manual on the website. (I cannot paste links here because then TH-cam will regard the comment as spam.)
Do you have Renold I / Renold II temperaments?
Currently not. But with the pro version you can create and edit your own temperaments.
I’m going to use your app, Frank, pone my new old piano has settle down after moving. Question: is there a way to see beating of 2 or 3 strings? I’m not sure if I can hear those ups and downs in the sound amplitude. Thanks much!
The current version of pianoscope does not have a function for visualizing beats. The next version 3 will have such a function. For a preview, check out the video "Pianoscope 3 Preview - Part 1: Time Charts" on my TH-cam channel.
Its a great product! I am a new with this, when tuning c4, do i need to tune each string separately?
Yes, when tuning with pianoscope, you should tune one string of a unison at a time and mute the others.
@@pianoscope6345 Hello, I'm also new to this, do we need to mute the other strings when measuring the inharmonics? When tuning with the app, is it advisable to use a mute strip?
@@tomgregory8915 When you measure the inharmonicity you only need to mute if the unison is strongly out of tune. If it is only slightly out of tune, it is fine to record the full unison. If you tune with the app and if you are not in pitch-raise mode, you are free to tune in any order you like. So if you like to use a mute strip to first tune center strings and then tune the unisons later, you can do so. But if you want to tune the unisons as you go, it is also fine. In the pitch-raise mode it is different: There you need to tune in a fixed order from A0 to C8 and tune unisons as you go, so you can't use a mute strip then. This is necessary because the app needs to predict the movement of the soundboard.
Hi Frank, I'm a new piano tuner and I love the user interface and functionality of you app. While I can only afford the standard version until I start making money from this, I do hope to get the full version soon. My question to you: is there a discount when you upgrade from the Standard to Pro version, or do I have to pay full price for Pro?
Hi Benjamin, I am glad you like pianoscope. When you have the Standard version, you can always upgrade to Pro by just paying the price difference.
I'm trying pianoscope with my old entry level upright. It's not easy to set the strings to 0 cent, the tuning is very sensitive. What would you recommend as a reasonable cents range for a "good enough" tuning (only for homework) ?
With a bit of practice it is possible to get the strings to 0.1 Cents accuracy, especially when you use the gray freeze indicator of the pro version. But for a home tuning you're good with 0.3 Cents.
Did youtube send me this video, or was it God? I can't tell. Either way, thanks Frank!
Is It possible for pianoscope to measure inharmonicity of a piano, if this piano is out of tune?
When you are measuring unisons which are strongly out of tune, you should mute them so that you only measure a single string. If the whole instrument is more than 20 cents flat or sharp and you need to do two tuning passes anyway, I recommend to re-measure the inharmonicity for the second pass, as the inharmonicity changes when you strongly lower or increase the string tensions.
when measuring tuning and inharmonicity over the entire keyboard, why the actual pitch is marked on a curve, why not over a flat line ?
When measuring, there are actually two curves: An inharmonicity curve and a pitch. You can switch between them by swiping upwards. The shape of the inharmonicity curve is determined by the factory design of an instrument. The shape of the pitch curve depends on the stretch that was chosen when the instrument was last tuned, and on the current tuning state. If an instrument is strongly out of tune, the pitch curve can have a funny, even a chaotic shape.
@ thanks a lot!
I have a curiosity question, how can you infer the inharmonicity of a piano from the recording of out of tune keys ? I can't get it right in my mind.
The inharmonicity only slightly changes with pitch/string tension. So it does not matter if a string is flat or sharp. If an instrument is strongly out of tune, like more than 20 cents, it is preferable to tune the piano twice and to re-measure the inharmonicity after the first tuning pass. But doing two passes for a pitch-raise is standard practice anyway as the soundboard and plate deform during the first pass. If the strings in a unison of a single note are more than slightly out of tune with each other, you should use a mute and let only a single string sound for the inharmonicity measurement.
@@pianoscope6345 I get all this, but I think I was not clear enough in my question. When recording all the keys one by one, you get a profile of all of them, but if the piano is out of tune, who do you measure / calculate inharmonicity from this data in the software ??
To be able to produce a tuning, pianoscope needs to calculate a target pitch for every note which results in the so-called tuning curve. The goal is to minimise the beating that is produced when playing intervals, by coinciding partials in the notes of that interval. This is an optimisation problem. To solve it, the app needs to know the spacings between the partials in every note. These spacings are different for every note and every instrument and are described by the so-called inharmonicity. But these spacings stay constant if you raise or lower the pitch during tuning (if you don't overdo it). So to solve the tuning curve, the app needs to pre-measure the inharmonicity of all notes. For this to work, it does not matter if the measured string is in or out of tune with other strings. The inharmonicity of a string is like a human fingerprint.
Is pianoscope not available for Android? If not, is there a chance that it will be?
Pianoscope requires an iPhone or iPad. I currently don't have any plans to port it to Android. But you don't need the newest iPhone or iPad, just one that is able to run iOS 15 or later. There are many affordable older iOS devices which can run iOS 15.
@@pianoscope6345 What a shame. I'm not an Apple supporter. Oh well.
Heyy, what about making android version?
I currently don't have any plans to port pianoscope to Android. But you don't need the newest iPhone or iPad to run the app. Every device able to run iOS 15 or later is fine. This includes old ones like iPhone 6s or iPhone SE (1st gen) which you can get very cheap on eBay.
As a fellow Android user, I picked up an older gen iPad Mini (5th) specifically for pianoscope and I love it. The stand cases are awesome, and it's a more comfortable form factor to tune from vs. a smartphone
Why do we have to measure the inharmonicities? why can´t we just tune to the specific pitches of lets say a nice sampled kawai or steinway for example?
Inharmonicities differ greatly between instruments of different brands and sizes. This means that a tuner has to find a unique tuning for every instrument. This is the case for aural tuning, too. If you simply try to apply the pitches of one instrument to another different instrument, you will in most cases end up with a bad tuning. It is even not obvious how to transfer the pitch from one instrument to the other. Which partials do you regard if they are differently spaced in the instruments? In practice on stage this is a real problem if you have two different pianos for playing a duet.
@@pianoscope6345 fascinating- so when I use piano with other instruments it will always be slightly out of tune with those?
Is it only the curve at the top and bottom of the piano being affected or all notes? I still can’t wrap my head around it. This is what Entropy is trying to do too but not successful?
@@Mikas_Emil Yes, it is the same with other instruments, for example with strings. Bowed string instruments have a harmonic spectrum across the scale so that you will always hear some beating when played together with a piano.
Yes, the effect of the stretching cumulates going outwards from the middle. How strong a piano tuning needs to be stretched in the bass depends on its size and the choice of pure intervals by the tuner. The spectrum of bass notes of a 3 meter grand piano is only slightly inharmonic, nearly harmonic. The smaller an instrument is, the thicker its bass strings have to be and the stronger its inharmonicity will be.
The inharmonicity in the treble (and therefore also the stretch) is mostly a function of string tension and thus it depends on the design of the instrument and the choice of concert pitch, and of course the tuner's choice of which intervals to make pure.
Every piano tuning has to account for inharmonicity, regardless whether it is done by ear or by software. Entropy Piano Tuner does this as well, but uses an algorithm which results in an unpredictable pattern of pure intervals. Most musicians prefer a predictable pattern of octaves, double octaves, twelfths etc.
@@pianoscope6345 Thank you so much. That is one of the best explanations I’ve had on this subject. It is still very hard for me to grasp (I am a musician, not a physicist). Does this have something to do with the partials also? Does longer strings on a grand concert piano have different partials than shorter ones? Or how do you measure this differences in inharmonicities? And how do you hear them?
Lastly: do you know how companies like Keyscape (Spectrasonics) tune their pianos? Equal temperament is the single most used way right but what does it mean? Thanks so much for your insights. Greatly appreciate it and I have downloaded your app and tuned my upright 60s Kawai piano 🥳
I'm not a specialist in piano tuning at all, what do 10:5 8:4 6:3 etc octaves refer to ?
This is the common notation for the so-called coincident partials in octave intervals: If you play two notes simultaneously on a piano in an octave interval, the tenth partial of the lower note coincides with the fifth partial of the upper note, this is abbreviated with 10:5. These coincident partials produce beats. The tones of a piano are inharmonic, which means that the frequencies of the partials of a note are not equally spaced. Therefore, if you reduce the beating in one interval (for example 10:5) you increase the beating in another interval (for example 2:1). So the problem of tuning a piano is to find a tuning curve which reduces the beating in the most relevant tuning intervals.
@@pianoscope6345 much clearer. Should one focus more on the smaller ones like 2:1 which are probably louder, than the highest ones on the list ?
@@pianoscope6345Wonderful description. Thank you!
What about android users?
Pianoscope runs on iPhones and iPads which support iOS 15 or later. There is currently no plan to port it to Android.
@@pianoscope6345 aww that's too bad ;)
(NO SHOUTING) WINDOWS IS THE MAIN OS, THEREFORE I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE YOU TO PORT THIS SOFTWARE TO WINDOWS 11.
was für'n umständliches Programm. Genau so schlecht wie Entropie Piano Tuner. Wohl noch nie 'n richtig schlechtes Klavier gestimmt. Da kann man nämlich gar nicht alle Töne erst messen, weil die einfach nicht alle erkannt werden. Besonders im Diskant. Gute Programme können schon aus wenigen Tönen eine Kurve ableiten und mit jedem gestimmten Ton wird diese verfeinert.