Oshkosh is really stressful and demanding, I'm sure. Those turns midfield, the touchdown spots, airplanes with very different performances... Not for anyone indeed.
@@adamlannerd1408They are rather direct with their instructions because they need everything to be very precise and they have a lot of aircraft to talk to in a short space of time, but nothing in this video seemed unreasonable to me. There are smaller margins for error than usual so if you misjudge your landing, as happened here, you are going to have an issue, but everyone flying in knows that and accepts that risk.
An old pilot and atc guy here told me this once. If you think you're ready to fly into Oshkosh, you aren't. If another pilot says you're ready, you are.
As a CFI, I can assure you that plenty have been told by other pilots that they’re ready and they are not. Once a quality CFI with lots of OSH experience tells you that you’re ready, then you have a good shot.
The sheer number of aircraft all going in there at the same time. It's not a huge airport, and you have literally thousands of aircraft trying to fly in there during daylight hours, every day. Possibly tens of thousands.
I flew a DA40 on a busy first OshKosh Saturday on a similar pattern towards 36R about 10 years ago and called "unable" due to cross winds at which point I was vectored to 27, green dot. All well. Busy place with not much room to manoeuvre.
It seems that this year had LESS incidents than usual. Several days of good weather meant that everyone could get in, and the compression of arrivals that usually causes all the chaos did not happen. Monday afternoon there were ZERO airplanes at the hospital, likely the first time I have ever seen that! Usually at least a couple of gear failures or prop strikes over the first weekend. Not this year!
That approach seems to have built in ridiculousness. They must be like 100' AGL when turning final with about a quarter of the runway length allotted for their entire final. I was there 3 times in the 90s and I never saw this approach, or dots on the runways. How do you even practice that kind of approach?
I watched Oshkosh on radar. The pression of the coordination from inbound and multiple airplane variants and speeds, was ATC communication outstanding. They have to be the cream of the crop. It would be neat if someone did a special on them. I wonder if they take break and vacation to do the event.
I flew into an FAA event at an air force base. My passenger took a picture of me on short, a plane over the numbers, one rolling out, and one turning off the (admittedly very long) runway. That taught me that driving to OSH was the best way!
Watched the crash in person from the flight line. Came in hot and steep, we assume accelerated stall about 50 feet off. Landed in past the runway in the grass and spun out. Those large wings and the gear collapse really helped keep everyone safe. They walked away right after touching down.
If you're only allotted a thousand feet or so for your final and you have to turn base to final when you're almost on the ground already after a steep descent, then yeah, that seems kinda tricky. I don't know how people can even learn that and practice it outside the military.
You have to fly 18R as a short approach. Pretend your engine just went out on midfield downwind, full flaps, engine near idle, and crank that thing. It’s not for the light of heart.
I’ve landed on 18L once in my P172D. From downwind to final at a safe and appropriate airspeed with all 40 flaps hanging out, it’s a continuous turn. I have not landed on 18R, but they’re close together, so I assume it’s the same. And it’s up to the pilot to determine that he/she can’t do it and go around-part of being PIC.
Consider it more of “I’ll call your base early” but not a short approach. Unless you’re only used to dragging things in from miles and miles out - which, frankly, lots of CFIs only teach these days… If I give ya a simulated engine failure in the downwind in a light twin during training, you’d have no problem turning and landing on an over a mile long runway at sea level. Assuming your proficiency and training plan has kept you to the minimum standard required for your certificate, of course. No idea what faint of heart means as it relates to proficiency but faint of practice in expensive to operate personal aircraft is very common to see at Flight Review time… It’s also pretty common for nicer aircraft owners to get complacent and fly everything autopilot coupled and straight in. Gotta practice your airmanship occasionally. If you haven’t been maintaining minimum proficiency, we’ll fix that. And if you can do it on one engine, you can definitely do it with two. Grin. Shrug.
@@whatilearnttoday5295what makes this approach stupid? Every pilot flying in knows that this published procedure is possible, practice it. Practicing a short approach now and then is good anyway.
18R is IMO, the trickiest approach of them all. Requires a low base to final turn due to the north limit line (tower). I do these all the time with close-in formation pitchout landings, but if you are not used to that low circling approach (and have not PRACTISED it before coming to OSH) you are going to task-saturate and end up letting the controller fly your plane. Bad way to fly. Watch the Roush pancake. I was there for that one.
What’s “low” about it? Lateral north/south distance has nothing to do with your descent planning to a dot. Like zero. If I as a CFI tell ya to turn at th numbers and land on the thousand foot marker you can manage that in nearly any light GA aircraft, even a twin. Even could ask for a continuous turn to final and anyone meeting the minimum standards for their certificate could accomplish it. And that’s tighter than the Oshkosh second dot by a huuuuuge margin.
I had problems in a twin Seminole at he local training airport with with all the 172’s and 152’s flying in the pattern at so much slower speeds. Can’t imagine what it’s like at Osh Kosh.
I saw this happen live - was 50 yards away from it, and got some photos prior to the Safety fleet got there. Saw the two occupants get out of the plane OK.
The 18R is the hardest one at OSH, but thousands of planes do it every year. There was nothing uniquely challenging about this situation, no need to rush it into the ground, no specific dot to land on. Try it on the sim, get the pattern width right to see what it looks like. Glad they are ok, but i am curious what they got wrong that lead to this outcome. I've approached 27 where I was still in a 30 deg bank at 50ft agl, and rolled out on centerline, on speed. Something has to have been wrong on the approach for the diamond to have this outcome.
Was there as it happened, watching live directly in front of me. Three passengers - left seat, right seat, and a lady in a pink dress. All out okay, and took about an hour and 40 to get it moved and cleared. Looked very much like a wing stall from where I was - took the turn too tight with not enough forward speed. Just dropped out the sky. So glad everyone was okay - the sound of the aircraft rending along the runway will stay with me, as it was a heck of a thud.
I can totally see how this happens. I remember once going into 27 at OSH and the controller said similar to me as it sounds like here….turn base at one dot and then land at the next. Then he’s saying turn base now. I wasn’t even to the dot he told me to land at yet. Seems like he did similar to this guy. Probably better if they’d just say turn base now, keep the turn coming around and land as soon as able not before whatever dot (which likely won’t be a problem). It’s a recipe for getting low and slow and cranking a big turn trying to comply with a dot when the point is likely there’s a guy behind so we want you long and off quick and the second guy will be landing short.
This is a high stress, demanding environment. I am coming up to 150hours and would not consider flying to OSH on the week of the airshow. Given 2 weeks off, I would be semi-comfortable to arrive 2-3 days early. It's easy to fly Delta and rent a car tho.
@RetreadPhoto no, on the video it gets below 80 kts when he is starting the turn (not sure how accurate). Banked stall speed on this aircraft is around 60-70 kts
watching the video he looks slow, overshot the runway and turned too sharp without adding power , just like the Lancair crash. Pilot error in both cases!! @RetreadPhoto
Many miss the point of the dots. The request to land PAST a dot is because the runway behind you is being used as another runway. It’s simply a spacing thing. Far too many fixate on the dots instead of realizing what they are, the minimum separation distance allowed for simultaneous runway ops under the NOTAM. As a CFI explaining that to Oshkosh bound folk along with the reminder that they could change which dot they want last minute if the segment of runway in FRONT of you becomes open… and lots of lightbulbs go on in heads. All changing to the next dot entails is add power to level off like you’re starting a low approach - then reassess your new landing target and land there ahead. If you’re mentally prepared and understand why they do it, it makes it a lot simpler. For the wary, chair flying each approach before going so you know what “normal” is, helps too. You realize they’re just two runways with normal patterns made from one piece of asphalt. The second dot is just the start of the next runway.
Flown in there a couple of times and you really have to have confidence in your ability to land in challenging conditions. Spending your whole career landing on 5,000 foot runways really doesn’t prepare you.
It’s always talked about and taught stabilized approaches. Then they make close in approaches, turning close in base, and rattling off spot instructions for a twin and are surprised when this happens. Not an aircraft you want slip in.
1. no one is surprised 2. If it's too much for you to make a landing like this than don't fly to oshkosh because it's a very real possibility this will be the procedure.
I’m not surprised. People are crashing quite a bit at Oshkosh. Seems like a cluster. Especially for inexperienced pilots. Not a good advertisement for the show.
@@davedoe6445it’s just not, though. This is a perfectly safe procedure, but does require occasional practice. Every pilot flying in is aware this procedure may be in place, practice the dang thing. The airplane has no idea how high it is or where the runway is, it flys the same.
So, two aircraft crashes on the field during the 2024 event and another one ditching trying to make Greenland on the way home. Two were killed on day one. Four or five violated airspace over the Republican convention in Milwaukee and will get in big trouble for that. Is this what we want to go through every year as an industry? Does this say anything about whether this is a safe event or not? I’ve flown in there three times and anything from a small twin to a challenger jet. So I have some experience there.
Ya same - no video unfortunately. Looked like a cross controlled stall. Tense moment but was glad to see the canopy pop open and everyone well out. ARF was on scene in probably 60 seconds or better - incredible team all around.
@@Smalltownflyer yeah - I too saw it live... as he was coming in I turned to my buddy to say - check this out and as we turned back we just saw the impact and heard the impact.... good to see that they walked away.
I'd call that the absolute minimum practice. My practice routine involves short, tight approaches to spot landings at different points on the runway. I also practice changing my landing spot on short final, which isn't uncommon at all. The takeaway here is that this is nonstandard pattern flying, and figuring it out on the fly is not good planning. My standard talking point is that the air work needs to be second nature, so you can keep your brain power reserved for the unexpected stuff. I love going to OSH but it is not to be taken lightly.
@@whatilearnttoday5295it’s not dangerous when pilots are appropriately prepared. What alternative approach would you suggest with wind from the south while funneling in hundreds of airplanes per hour?
I'm not a pilot, my only frame of reference are channels like this, so honest question: Is this a lot chattier than usual, is this normal for GA, or is the silence cut out, because it seems the tower doesn't leave a lot of room for any other transmissions.
For the majority of arrivals flying Visual Flight Rules you are instructed to Not reply to the Tower Controllers. Only the fastest (jets etc.) reply on the radio as they need more clear air space in front of them and the Tower arranges that. Not talking back is essential as it would be impossible to hear anyone if everyone is talking.
Oshkosh Airventure is very different. The practice is for pilots to not repeat instructions back. The separation is much tighter with special exceptions to the normal FAA procedure. Up to three aircraft may be landing on the same runway at the same time. The traffic is continuous. ADS-B is almost worthless because the traffic is so dense, you cannot separate aircraft on the screen. Add to that the performance differences, saw a P-51 follow a piper cherokee for two airplanes landing at the same time. Some pilots may be rusty or past their best abilities, but still try to fly into Airventure like they have done for 50 years. It is easy to get rattled and forget about just flying the plane. Go-arounds are supported and even encouraged, but it is hard to admit in front of 250k people that you are not perfect. Fun, challenging, amazing, but you need to have game. I flew in and out three times this week and every approach was different.
@Jeff-zg5gm @thefencepost Thanks! it makes a lot more sense if there's no expectation of a reply. It tickles the risk management part of my brain, but obviously it's working. Stay safe if you're flying there!
I can recall at least 7 possible approach configurations to the Oshkosh EEA. A pilot might not have any idea which one until they are essentially upon the airport. This one looks the tightest, most dangerous, and frankly most bizarre of them all. Unless a pilot came to EEA for a number of years and made several takeoffs and landings each time, he would likely never get experience at all of these alternatives. Or maybe no one has ever experienced them all. Very difficult to claim proficiency in landing here. Also, note how "interactive" ATC had to be with both (3?) airplanes on their approach. That's not indicative of a healthy situation when a pilot is already task saturated.
ATIS mentions the procedures in effect and one can hear every assignment to other pilots all the way in the train. It usually comes down to two different options over Fisk. Not unmanageable with some study and flying skill.
No they should know the two options before Fisk from the ATIS. Once Fisk assigns a runway you know exactly what you are doing. I’ve done it twice now and I’ve had my PPL for less than 2 years. Haven’t even made it to my biannual yet.
It’s a really long runway for the altitude. What gets many pilots is they get used to aiming at the numbers for years and it doesn’t really click that the second dot is essentially “land halfway down this huge runway”. And they’re not used to that at all. It’s worth practicing if there’s a large runway near home. The basics for doing it are well within a current and proficient private pilot skill set and students can do it near the end of training with ease if an instructor like me asks them to, but rusty or mentally unprepared folk get caught out by it. Once you study it a bit and visualize two runway ops you realize it’s just a short approach to the 18s staying inside from the traffic on 27. That’s all they’re really shooting for. When they ask for things like the continuous turn - the spacing is a bit tight. It’s a hint they’re trying to send you down the field to the second dot to keep you ahead of someone behind you. OR… you waited too long to turn and they need you inside of that crosswind runway traffic. It messes with people who learned all turns are squared off and don’t realize a continuous turn to final IS… a stabilized approach. They think stabilized means squares. Commercial certificate holders shrug and realize it’s just a power off 180 to a landing with a stretched out touchdown point. Folks who haven’t done a continuous turn to final should practice those at home too.
Description says he overshot the runway on his turn and impacted the left wing into the grass. [My opinion] He turned too shallow, realised he was going to miss the runway and then turned too hard and hit the wing off the ground.
@RetreadPhoto If you find wailing and crying helpful to your image, please feel free. This is a minor, though expensive, accident. They don't need your tears. I'll save that for people who suffer personal calamity, and I don't need to air that in public for validation by people like you.
@@sykosocial I know, just seemed he was concerned about the paperwork before learning how the occupants were. That said more spacing and not making some pilots feel rushed would help prevent some of these accidents
@@marlinweekley51 i get that, but he's also got a very busy job to do. They weren't able to respond directly, and now with a team down there, he knows that they'll be able to take care of things so the tower can continue with their own jobs and potentially get the runways back open. There's only so much that can be done for a pilot feeling rushed. They know what to expect.
@@sykosocial as a pilot who has flown into KOSH during Shows many times there are many first timers who mainly fly out of untowered rural airports and really don’t know what they’re getting into. Listening for your tail number, the instructions in quick succession then instructions immediately for other planes does get a bit overwhelming for some. I’ve heard many exchanges between tower and pilot where the pilot simply was overwhelmed and didn’t understand or follow the instructions. That’s been my experience.
@@marlinweekley51 it’s definitely not an EASY task, someone who gets overwhelmed and then frustrated can easily pose a risk to themselves and those around them. I implore the uncertain to either avoid flying to Oshkosh and pick a neighboring airport when this event is going on, research and listen to ATC direct other traffic, or bring someone who has gone through the gauntlet before to assist them until they get more comfortable. I’m sure you’re very well acquainted that flying into KOSH for this event can be a humbling experience for those who haven’t experienced heavy traffic.
Does Oshkosh comply with any ICAO regulation? No readbacks, no standard phaseology, airplanes forced to make sharp turns regardless of safety, 2 airplanes landing on the same runway at the same time only with the separation of some dots painted on the runway, no traffic information at all, long and complex instructions to airplanes on critical phases of the flight... I suppose that the FAA says that it's completly safe, but I won't fly in the US. :)
Yeah... I'm sure it's possible to do it but it's completely stupid with this many planes you're asking for accidents. They should have a maximum number of arrivals arranged per day because this is just dangerous.
ICAO doesn't regulate - it has recommended practices, and each national authority states the differences from those practices. FAA also has such a deviation list in their AIP (for example, using xxx point z in frequencies, not xxx decimal z, and similar). This is valid for OSH throughout the years. But for this specific event, there is a huge NOTAM in effect explaining the different procedures to the pilots, and the deviations from the general FAA regulations also. This is the only way to get so many aircraft in and out of the event. It's not for the faint hearted. After the event is over, everything goes back to normal at OSH.
For what reason? Because you're not pleased? Freedom comes with personal responsibility and accountability. The last thing we need are any 3 letter agencies to overreach anymore than they already do. We really need to dump these Marxist thought processes.
There is an instruction booklet for that…. Everyone reads the booklet before flying in. All pilots are capable… most bring a second pilot along for traffic watch and nav aide… 😃
I get that Oshkosh is a big deal and brings in a ton of annual revenue for the entire area ,but perhaps they've become TOO big and trying to cram it all into an event that is too short. It could be extended in length to allow for a less frantic pace! There seems to be too much going on despite having fantastic controllers coordinating it all. Add in lesser experienced pilots or a pilot that " knows everything " and you've got a disaster waiting to happen . I understand incidents occur everyday and can happen at any airport , but the mix of so many aircraft types and a mix of different pilots experience just seems to come to a head at Oshkosh every year . Thankfully no one hurt on this one, but I believe at least 4 have perished in 2 other separate incidents this year . Just my observations of course ,but maybe slow it down a tad and add a few days to give those who want to attend ,the opportunity to attend , a less frantic need to get there the same time as everyone else.
I agree. Reduce the numbers allowed to fly in for starters. And maybe develop a certification program for pilots flying in... Anyone who hasn't flown in for a few years has to get certified by attending a (limited attendance) practice day at some other time throughout the year. Anyone who's failed to follow directions multiple times at events also has to attend practice and recertify. Anyone who just wants to brush up can also then practice before the event. There's plenty of other airports around the world that require specific certificates to fly into.... No reason Oshkosh couldn't have that requirement during the event.
2 dead 2 crashes in as many days maybe three. It really just sounds to damn busy for this many aircraft. I mean it's literally a guarantee every year. That's why I've never been interested in going.
you're only preventing yourself from a fantastic aviation experience. With 10,000+ aircraft, having two accidents means that 99.98% of all aircraft landed safe.
Social Media makes everything seem like a disaster, when in reality this year was probably one of the safest I can remember. How many crashes were there in the traffic jam on Hwy 41 to get in on Wed.?
“If you would” is terrible phraseology, almost as bad as saying you can, but it is Oshkosh so I don’t expect to hear actual phraseology. As far as thinking you will get a response, the only job of the occupants once the plane comes to a stop is to exit immediately and proceed at a 45 degree angle away from the aircraft. It isn’t to sit in the plane and talk on the radios.
Everyhing is terrible phraseology in these videos. I understand they want to land thousands of airplanes, but safety should be more important than that always.
@@chrisnielsen9885 OshKosh... hundreds of planes all coming in within minutes of each other.. Pink Dots, Yellow Dots, Blue Dots.. RIght Bases, Left Bases... tight final to hit a color... groups of club planes all following each other and causing holds for other aircrafts.
Twin Diamond arrived. Unsafe operations. I have been watching too many incidents . I would stay away. Poor way to operate. My AVEMCO policy excludes Alaska but policies should exclude this “exotic cowboy operation.”. By the way I am CFI, instrument airplane rated since the 1990s.
@@daniellamb7828I am suggesting that if I were an Insurance company I would exclude coverage for those events unless the aircraft operator/Pilot/Owner purchased a SPECIFIC INSURANCE RIDER. Insurance companies are in business to insure for loss. If an aircrsft operation increased the rusk of loss the people engaging in those risky operations should pay increased premiums. People who exercise wisdom in avoiding the aircraft equivalent of a "turkey shoot" should not have to suffer an increase of premiums because a limited population of pilots engage in statistically riskier operations... Those risk taking pilots need to pay for their ... ahem... adventurous air operations and not saddle the rest of us with their "fun."
? EDIT: Both meaning 2 out of 2 Not Injured meaning NOT injured 2/2 NOT injured... How can 1 of the 2 be injured if 2 out of the 2 are not. What are we talking about here? AHHHH
@@arnelilleseter4755 the preliminary and final reports have detailed injury tables for avoiding any misinterpretation, so nothing depends on the wording. Although the reports try to separate different crew roles and passengers, .e.,g " The pilot and passenger were not injured. " (CEN24LA079). The reports use "occupants" terminology at an early stage, when it is unclear, what the role of the occupants were. By the way, I made a search of "both occupants were not injured" and there are tons of hits, looks like this is also commonly used. Examples: BBC: "Police want to check both were not injured during the incident." ESPN Singapore: "Brooklyn, [...]r, was in the car with his father following a game with Brighton at London Colney, but both were not injured." Yahoo News: "Boulder Valley School District told 9News that one student and a driver were on board the school bus at the time of the crash, and both were not injured." Aviation Safety Network: "The student pilot [...] passed the controls to the instructor. However, the latter was unable to regain control of the aircraft, which fell back by rolling over to the ground before coming to rest.Both were not injured." So believe what you want, but it looks like the chances of both not having been injured, but individually one of them being injured, is exceptionally low. Maybe you could do a little research and show an example, where that was the case?
@@rnzoli I still don't think this is official terminology. It's just bad English. That others have made the same mistake doesn't make it correct. "Both occupants were not injured." can have two meanings, one of them were injured, or none of them were injured. I'm not sure what you're asking me to researh. Accidents with two people involved were only one of them got injured? There are thousands of accidents every day. That must happen all the time.
The controller was telling the pilot of the Twin Star how to fly his plane which he had no business doing. The controller is there to safely coordinate the aircraft in the landing and takeoff patterns, not to command individuals to perform maneuvers which they may not be able to comply with because of aircraft performance or flying characteristics. Yes, the pilot should have declined the instructions by stating he was unable to perform the requested maneuvers, but the controller sounded like a drill Seargent pushing for results.
This pilot was rushed to much given the urgency of the controller over control and the fact that there was only one behind him. Yes there are others inbound but regardless.
OshKosh where rich unskilled yoke holders go to crash perfectly good aircraft for views and likes on social media 😂 AirVenture is like a NASCAR race 95% of the spectators are there for the crashes.. It never disappoints in that regard 😅
I had problems in a twin Seminole at he local training airport with with all the 172’s and 152’s flying in the pattern at so much slower speeds. Can’t imagine what it’s like at Osh Kosh.
That’s a tad odd considering best single engine climb is 88 and Vmc is 56. How fast were they teaching you to fly that tiny dump truck of a twin? lol 😂 That thing is all drag all the time.
Oshkosh is really stressful and demanding, I'm sure. Those turns midfield, the touchdown spots, airplanes with very different performances... Not for anyone indeed.
The ATC there doesn't care about your safety. Screaming at pilots that are 4 mph away from stalling proves it.
I'd love to visit one day... but I'll take an Uber, thanks :)
@@adamlannerd1408 you must have been listening to something else
@@adamlannerd1408not this one.
@@adamlannerd1408They are rather direct with their instructions because they need everything to be very precise and they have a lot of aircraft to talk to in a short space of time, but nothing in this video seemed unreasonable to me. There are smaller margins for error than usual so if you misjudge your landing, as happened here, you are going to have an issue, but everyone flying in knows that and accepts that risk.
An old pilot and atc guy here told me this once. If you think you're ready to fly into Oshkosh, you aren't. If another pilot says you're ready, you are.
As a CFI, I can assure you that plenty have been told by other pilots that they’re ready and they are not. Once a quality CFI with lots of OSH experience tells you that you’re ready, then you have a good shot.
I'll just drive.
Infinitely less stressful.
I'm not familiar with that location. What makes it so difficult?
The sheer number of aircraft all going in there at the same time. It's not a huge airport, and you have literally thousands of aircraft trying to fly in there during daylight hours, every day. Possibly tens of thousands.
@@davedarling4316 Thanks!
I flew a DA40 on a busy first OshKosh Saturday on a similar pattern towards 36R about 10 years ago and called "unable" due to cross winds at which point I was vectored to 27, green dot. All well. Busy place with not much room to manoeuvre.
Every year someone gets behind the aircraft.
Who would've thought getting a bunch of amateur pilots to fly into one of the busiest airports this time of year would lead to this?
It seems that this year had LESS incidents than usual. Several days of good weather meant that everyone could get in, and the compression of arrivals that usually causes all the chaos did not happen. Monday afternoon there were ZERO airplanes at the hospital, likely the first time I have ever seen that! Usually at least a couple of gear failures or prop strikes over the first weekend. Not this year!
The annual demonstration of the general dangers of general aviation continues....
That approach seems to have built in ridiculousness. They must be like 100' AGL when turning final with about a quarter of the runway length allotted for their entire final. I was there 3 times in the 90s and I never saw this approach, or dots on the runways. How do you even practice that kind of approach?
I watched Oshkosh on radar. The pression of the coordination from inbound and multiple airplane variants and speeds, was ATC communication outstanding. They have to be the cream of the crop. It would be neat if someone did a special on them. I wonder if they take break and vacation to do the event.
@roryoconnor4989 both. Same as Tracon handing over Newark to Philadelphia. JFK and Laguardia are staying in their respective Tracon zone.
@@jason6919 I was asking about the word “pression”
There is a very good Oshkosh video somewhere on YT that focuses on the controllers and their spotters.
Years ago those controllers volunteered, and that was how they spent their vacation. I don't know how it is now.
I actually watched this happen during the EAA livestream, watching the Warbird camera.
same! I thought it was the PA22 that was struggling at first.
Controller is awesome
The controller was an idiot, see my comments.
Except for the bit where he's working with a layout which forces planes to do 90deg turns on final.
There's quite a large team there, not just one.
I flew into an FAA event at an air force base. My passenger took a picture of me on short, a plane over the numbers, one rolling out, and one turning off the (admittedly very long) runway. That taught me that driving to OSH was the best way!
Watched the crash in person from the flight line. Came in hot and steep, we assume accelerated stall about 50 feet off. Landed in past the runway in the grass and spun out. Those large wings and the gear collapse really helped keep everyone safe. They walked away right after touching down.
I’m glad everyone is OK. I’ve flown in there a couple of times and it’s busy. now I stay north of it and just fly into Appleton. Much less stressful.
Highly recommend arriving before Fisk opens up shop
If you've never done 18, it can be tricky because stuff happens fast compared to the other runways.
If you're only allotted a thousand feet or so for your final and you have to turn base to final when you're almost on the ground already after a steep descent, then yeah, that seems kinda tricky. I don't know how people can even learn that and practice it outside the military.
You have to fly 18R as a short approach. Pretend your engine just went out on midfield downwind, full flaps, engine near idle, and crank that thing. It’s not for the light of heart.
Exactly right. Every time I have landed at Oshkosh it has been a downwind to base to final continuous turn. Cessna 182
I’ve landed on 18L once in my P172D. From downwind to final at a safe and appropriate airspeed with all 40 flaps hanging out, it’s a continuous turn. I have not landed on 18R, but they’re close together, so I assume it’s the same. And it’s up to the pilot to determine that he/she can’t do it and go around-part of being PIC.
How about just not doing such stupid approaches?
Consider it more of “I’ll call your base early” but not a short approach.
Unless you’re only used to dragging things in from miles and miles out - which, frankly, lots of CFIs only teach these days…
If I give ya a simulated engine failure in the downwind in a light twin during training, you’d have no problem turning and landing on an over a mile long runway at sea level.
Assuming your proficiency and training plan has kept you to the minimum standard required for your certificate, of course.
No idea what faint of heart means as it relates to proficiency but faint of practice in expensive to operate personal aircraft is very common to see at Flight Review time…
It’s also pretty common for nicer aircraft owners to get complacent and fly everything autopilot coupled and straight in. Gotta practice your airmanship occasionally.
If you haven’t been maintaining minimum proficiency, we’ll fix that. And if you can do it on one engine, you can definitely do it with two. Grin. Shrug.
@@whatilearnttoday5295what makes this approach stupid? Every pilot flying in knows that this published procedure is possible, practice it. Practicing a short approach now and then is good anyway.
18R is IMO, the trickiest approach of them all. Requires a low base to final turn due to the north limit line (tower). I do these all the time with close-in formation pitchout landings, but if you are not used to that low circling approach (and have not PRACTISED it before coming to OSH) you are going to task-saturate and end up letting the controller fly your plane. Bad way to fly. Watch the Roush pancake. I was there for that one.
Tricky = Dangerous.
What’s “low” about it? Lateral north/south distance has nothing to do with your descent planning to a dot. Like zero.
If I as a CFI tell ya to turn at th numbers and land on the thousand foot marker you can manage that in nearly any light GA aircraft, even a twin. Even could ask for a continuous turn to final and anyone meeting the minimum standards for their certificate could accomplish it.
And that’s tighter than the Oshkosh second dot by a huuuuuge margin.
What happens when you get a lot of GA crammed together for a few days? Busy days on VASAviation!
I had problems in a twin Seminole at he local training airport with with all the 172’s and 152’s flying in the pattern at so much slower speeds. Can’t imagine what it’s like at Osh Kosh.
It is your job being a trailing plane to give them room!
I saw this happen live - was 50 yards away from it, and got some photos prior to the Safety fleet got there. Saw the two occupants get out of the plane OK.
The 18R is the hardest one at OSH, but thousands of planes do it every year. There was nothing uniquely challenging about this situation, no need to rush it into the ground, no specific dot to land on.
Try it on the sim, get the pattern width right to see what it looks like.
Glad they are ok, but i am curious what they got wrong that lead to this outcome.
I've approached 27 where I was still in a 30 deg bank at 50ft agl, and rolled out on centerline, on speed. Something has to have been wrong on the approach for the diamond to have this outcome.
Was there as it happened, watching live directly in front of me. Three passengers - left seat, right seat, and a lady in a pink dress. All out okay, and took about an hour and 40 to get it moved and cleared.
Looked very much like a wing stall from where I was - took the turn too tight with not enough forward speed. Just dropped out the sky.
So glad everyone was okay - the sound of the aircraft rending along the runway will stay with me, as it was a heck of a thud.
I didn't see the accident but I did watch them load up the plane on the flatbed trailer and haul it off. It took awhile.
I can totally see how this happens. I remember once going into 27 at OSH and the controller said similar to me as it sounds like here….turn base at one dot and then land at the next. Then he’s saying turn base now. I wasn’t even to the dot he told me to land at yet. Seems like he did similar to this guy. Probably better if they’d just say turn base now, keep the turn coming around and land as soon as able not before whatever dot (which likely won’t be a problem). It’s a recipe for getting low and slow and cranking a big turn trying to comply with a dot when the point is likely there’s a guy behind so we want you long and off quick and the second guy will be landing short.
This is a high stress, demanding environment. I am coming up to 150hours and would not consider flying to OSH on the week of the airshow. Given 2 weeks off, I would be semi-comfortable to arrive 2-3 days early. It's easy to fly Delta and rent a car tho.
@RetreadPhoto no, on the video it gets below 80 kts when he is starting the turn (not sure how accurate). Banked stall speed on this aircraft is around 60-70 kts
watching the video he looks slow, overshot the runway and turned too sharp without adding power , just like the Lancair crash. Pilot error in both cases!! @RetreadPhoto
Many miss the point of the dots. The request to land PAST a dot is because the runway behind you is being used as another runway. It’s simply a spacing thing. Far too many fixate on the dots instead of realizing what they are, the minimum separation distance allowed for simultaneous runway ops under the NOTAM.
As a CFI explaining that to Oshkosh bound folk along with the reminder that they could change which dot they want last minute if the segment of runway in FRONT of you becomes open… and lots of lightbulbs go on in heads.
All changing to the next dot entails is add power to level off like you’re starting a low approach - then reassess your new landing target and land there ahead.
If you’re mentally prepared and understand why they do it, it makes it a lot simpler.
For the wary, chair flying each approach before going so you know what “normal” is, helps too. You realize they’re just two runways with normal patterns made from one piece of asphalt. The second dot is just the start of the next runway.
Flown in there a couple of times and you really have to have confidence in your ability to land in challenging conditions. Spending your whole career landing on 5,000 foot runways really doesn’t prepare you.
It’s always talked about and taught stabilized approaches. Then they make close in approaches, turning close in base, and rattling off spot instructions for a twin and are surprised when this happens. Not an aircraft you want slip in.
1. no one is surprised
2. If it's too much for you to make a landing like this than don't fly to oshkosh because it's a very real possibility this will be the procedure.
I’m not surprised. People are crashing quite a bit at Oshkosh. Seems like a cluster. Especially for inexperienced pilots. Not a good advertisement for the show.
@@jonnie2bad then the procedure is dangerous and stupid
@@davedoe6445it’s just not, though. This is a perfectly safe procedure, but does require occasional practice. Every pilot flying in is aware this procedure may be in place, practice the dang thing. The airplane has no idea how high it is or where the runway is, it flys the same.
So, two aircraft crashes on the field during the 2024 event and another one ditching trying to make Greenland on the way home. Two were killed on day one. Four or five violated airspace over the Republican convention in Milwaukee and will get in big trouble for that. Is this what we want to go through every year as an industry? Does this say anything about whether this is a safe event or not? I’ve flown in there three times and anything from a small twin to a challenger jet. So I have some experience there.
i saw it happen right in front of me in person it was crazy
Any video?
@@VASAviation i got a vid of the aftermath but i have a pic of it after it stopped spinning in the grass before emergency services got there
Ya same - no video unfortunately. Looked like a cross controlled stall. Tense moment but was glad to see the canopy pop open and everyone well out. ARF was on scene in probably 60 seconds or better - incredible team all around.
@@Smalltownflyer yeah - I too saw it live... as he was coming in I turned to my buddy to say - check this out and as we turned back we just saw the impact and heard the impact.... good to see that they walked away.
What was CRAZY was the pilot did not fly the plane properly, just like Rouch in his jet a coupkle years ago!
Days since last Oshkosh accident: 0
@VASAviation I have this whole video. I might be the only one with video of this crash.
I sent the video to your email
Everybody should practice the power off 180 before coming into Oshkosh for the case like this.
I'd call that the absolute minimum practice. My practice routine involves short, tight approaches to spot landings at different points on the runway. I also practice changing my landing spot on short final, which isn't uncommon at all.
The takeaway here is that this is nonstandard pattern flying, and figuring it out on the fly is not good planning. My standard talking point is that the air work needs to be second nature, so you can keep your brain power reserved for the unexpected stuff.
I love going to OSH but it is not to be taken lightly.
How about not setting up such a dangerous approach to begin with?
@@whatilearnttoday5295it’s not dangerous when pilots are appropriately prepared. What alternative approach would you suggest with wind from the south while funneling in hundreds of airplanes per hour?
I'm not a pilot, my only frame of reference are channels like this, so honest question: Is this a lot chattier than usual, is this normal for GA, or is the silence cut out, because it seems the tower doesn't leave a lot of room for any other transmissions.
For the majority of arrivals flying Visual Flight Rules you are instructed to Not reply to the Tower Controllers. Only the fastest (jets etc.) reply on the radio as they need more clear air space in front of them and the Tower arranges that.
Not talking back is essential as it would be impossible to hear anyone if everyone is talking.
Oshkosh Airventure is very different. The practice is for pilots to not repeat instructions back. The separation is much tighter with special exceptions to the normal FAA procedure. Up to three aircraft may be landing on the same runway at the same time. The traffic is continuous. ADS-B is almost worthless because the traffic is so dense, you cannot separate aircraft on the screen. Add to that the performance differences, saw a P-51 follow a piper cherokee for two airplanes landing at the same time. Some pilots may be rusty or past their best abilities, but still try to fly into Airventure like they have done for 50 years. It is easy to get rattled and forget about just flying the plane. Go-arounds are supported and even encouraged, but it is hard to admit in front of 250k people that you are not perfect. Fun, challenging, amazing, but you need to have game. I flew in and out three times this week and every approach was different.
@Jeff-zg5gm @thefencepost Thanks! it makes a lot more sense if there's no expectation of a reply. It tickles the risk management part of my brain, but obviously it's working. Stay safe if you're flying there!
I know nothing about this airport but uhhh... I'm guessing every final approach is "ultra nightmare" difficulty?
Amazing ATC there
The controller was an idiot, see my comments.
I was parked on the flight line and saw this happen in front of me
Practice Spot Landings Short Approaches. If you cant do them, DRIVE, DONT FLY..
What is the accident count? I got 5 or 6 aircraft, and 2 deaths so far. Does that seem accurate?
I get nervous landing on vatsim. Don’t think I could handle the pressure of landing at Oshkosh with everyone watching 😂
I can recall at least 7 possible approach configurations to the Oshkosh EEA. A pilot might not have any idea which one until they are essentially upon the airport. This one looks the tightest, most dangerous, and frankly most bizarre of them all. Unless a pilot came to EEA for a number of years and made several takeoffs and landings each time, he would likely never get experience at all of these alternatives. Or maybe no one has ever experienced them all. Very difficult to claim proficiency in landing here.
Also, note how "interactive" ATC had to be with both (3?) airplanes on their approach. That's not indicative of a healthy situation when a pilot is already task saturated.
ATIS mentions the procedures in effect and one can hear every assignment to other pilots all the way in the train. It usually comes down to two different options over Fisk. Not unmanageable with some study and flying skill.
No they should know the two options before Fisk from the ATIS. Once Fisk assigns a runway you know exactly what you are doing. I’ve done it twice now and I’ve had my PPL for less than 2 years. Haven’t even made it to my biannual yet.
It’s a really long runway for the altitude. What gets many pilots is they get used to aiming at the numbers for years and it doesn’t really click that the second dot is essentially “land halfway down this huge runway”. And they’re not used to that at all. It’s worth practicing if there’s a large runway near home.
The basics for doing it are well within a current and proficient private pilot skill set and students can do it near the end of training with ease if an instructor like me asks them to, but rusty or mentally unprepared folk get caught out by it.
Once you study it a bit and visualize two runway ops you realize it’s just a short approach to the 18s staying inside from the traffic on 27. That’s all they’re really shooting for.
When they ask for things like the continuous turn - the spacing is a bit tight. It’s a hint they’re trying to send you down the field to the second dot to keep you ahead of someone behind you. OR… you waited too long to turn and they need you inside of that crosswind runway traffic.
It messes with people who learned all turns are squared off and don’t realize a continuous turn to final IS… a stabilized approach. They think stabilized means squares.
Commercial certificate holders shrug and realize it’s just a power off 180 to a landing with a stretched out touchdown point.
Folks who haven’t done a continuous turn to final should practice those at home too.
Things seem to be going a little rougher than usual this year at EAA.
Twin Diamond, you had one job....
That arrival chart looks horrendous. I am not an expert, but that super tight final looks crazy.
@1:17 You have got to be kidding me. They set it all up so you have to make turns like that on final? Criminal negligence.
Wait a minute why aren't they using the full runway.
because they are landing multiple aircraft in succession. most private planes don't even need half a runway.
The problem with these crashes are the pilots inability to adjust their sight pictures and patterns to displaced thresholds.
One of many problems
The problem with this crash is the approach airport operators have setup.
1:07
Has there been more issues this year?
Some pilots need to drive to OSH instead of fly
How do you even crash a twinstar. Its probably one of the easiest aircraft to fly (twinstar pilot)
Description says he overshot the runway on his turn and impacted the left wing into the grass. [My opinion] He turned too shallow, realised he was going to miss the runway and then turned too hard and hit the wing off the ground.
Rich pickings at Oshkosh this year. Which is not good. At least they only trashed an expensive aircraft.
And a couple died on the first day.
@@w9awx1Yes, the Lancair. But not in this crash.
@RetreadPhoto If you find wailing and crying helpful to your image, please feel free. This is a minor, though expensive, accident. They don't need your tears. I'll save that for people who suffer personal calamity, and I don't need to air that in public for validation by people like you.
PhoenixEast strikes again. 😂
Beautiful plane, easy to fly. But those OSH procedures are not everybody’s cup of tea - it’s a bit like musical chairs it seems…
When did ATC tell pilots how to fly. This show needs to be shut down until safety is corrected. .
OK Karen
Paperwork?!😳 sooo how’s the pilot?
your answer is at the end of the video. they are both completely fine and uninjured.
@@sykosocial I know, just seemed he was concerned about the paperwork before learning how the occupants were.
That said more spacing and not making some pilots feel rushed would help prevent some of these accidents
@@marlinweekley51 i get that, but he's also got a very busy job to do. They weren't able to respond directly, and now with a team down there, he knows that they'll be able to take care of things so the tower can continue with their own jobs and potentially get the runways back open.
There's only so much that can be done for a pilot feeling rushed. They know what to expect.
@@sykosocial as a pilot who has flown into KOSH during Shows many times there are many first timers who mainly fly out of untowered rural airports and really don’t know what they’re getting into. Listening for your tail number, the instructions in quick succession then instructions immediately for other planes does get a bit overwhelming for some. I’ve heard many exchanges between tower and pilot where the pilot simply was overwhelmed and didn’t understand or follow the instructions. That’s been my experience.
@@marlinweekley51 it’s definitely not an EASY task, someone who gets overwhelmed and then frustrated can easily pose a risk to themselves and those around them. I implore the uncertain to either avoid flying to Oshkosh and pick a neighboring airport when this event is going on, research and listen to ATC direct other traffic, or bring someone who has gone through the gauntlet before to assist them until they get more comfortable.
I’m sure you’re very well acquainted that flying into KOSH for this event can be a humbling experience for those who haven’t experienced heavy traffic.
Does Oshkosh comply with any ICAO regulation? No readbacks, no standard phaseology, airplanes forced to make sharp turns regardless of safety, 2 airplanes landing on the same runway at the same time only with the separation of some dots painted on the runway, no traffic information at all, long and complex instructions to airplanes on critical phases of the flight... I suppose that the FAA says that it's completly safe, but I won't fly in the US. :)
Yeah... I'm sure it's possible to do it but it's completely stupid with this many planes you're asking for accidents. They should have a maximum number of arrivals arranged per day because this is just dangerous.
ICAO doesn't regulate - it has recommended practices, and each national authority states the differences from those practices. FAA also has such a deviation list in their AIP (for example, using xxx point z in frequencies, not xxx decimal z, and similar). This is valid for OSH throughout the years. But for this specific event, there is a huge NOTAM in effect explaining the different procedures to the pilots, and the deviations from the general FAA regulations also. This is the only way to get so many aircraft in and out of the event. It's not for the faint hearted. After the event is over, everything goes back to normal at OSH.
Time for the FAA to step in.
Right... and make everything much worse as is the norm for them?
Why?
How would the FAA make any of this better?
For what reason? Because you're not pleased? Freedom comes with personal responsibility and accountability. The last thing we need are any 3 letter agencies to overreach anymore than they already do. We really need to dump these Marxist thought processes.
Calling the government for help? 😃
Couldn’t help but laugh…. Yak…yak…yak…yak… (old song reference: yakety-yak, don’t talk back!)
Why does Oshkosh seem like a game of Airport Madness?
Waiting for Harrison Ford to make an appearance.
Super clever Karen
@@scottthompson5855 thank you
I could never be a pilot. Those landing instructions at the beginning sound like gibberish to me.
There is an instruction booklet for that…. Everyone reads the booklet before flying in.
All pilots are capable… most bring a second pilot along for traffic watch and nav aide…
😃
Eventually there’s gotta be a better system
Can we just stop with air shows and Oshkosh?
Why?
I get that Oshkosh is a big deal and brings in a ton of annual revenue for the entire area ,but perhaps they've become TOO big and trying to cram it all into an event that is too short. It could be extended in length to allow for a less frantic pace! There seems to be too much going on despite having fantastic controllers coordinating it all. Add in lesser experienced pilots or a pilot that " knows everything " and you've got a disaster waiting to happen . I understand incidents occur everyday and can happen at any airport , but the mix of so many aircraft types and a mix of different pilots experience just seems to come to a head at Oshkosh every year . Thankfully no one hurt on this one, but I believe at least 4 have perished in 2 other separate incidents this year . Just my observations of course ,but maybe slow it down a tad and add a few days to give those who want to attend ,the opportunity to attend , a less frantic need to get there the same time as everyone else.
I agree. Reduce the numbers allowed to fly in for starters.
And maybe develop a certification program for pilots flying in... Anyone who hasn't flown in for a few years has to get certified by attending a (limited attendance) practice day at some other time throughout the year. Anyone who's failed to follow directions multiple times at events also has to attend practice and recertify.
Anyone who just wants to brush up can also then practice before the event.
There's plenty of other airports around the world that require specific certificates to fly into.... No reason Oshkosh couldn't have that requirement during the event.
3 deaths so far this year, Oshkosh gotten too big?
2 dead 2 crashes in as many days maybe three. It really just sounds to damn busy for this many aircraft. I mean it's literally a guarantee every year. That's why I've never been interested in going.
you're only preventing yourself from a fantastic aviation experience. With 10,000+ aircraft, having two accidents means that 99.98% of all aircraft landed safe.
I think it's 3 crashes now, isn't it?
@@tin2001 it might be. I was there Tuesday-Thursday and I only recall two.
Social Media makes everything seem like a disaster, when in reality this year was probably one of the safest I can remember. How many crashes were there in the traffic jam on Hwy 41 to get in on Wed.?
skill issue
“If you would” is terrible phraseology, almost as bad as saying you can, but it is Oshkosh so I don’t expect to hear actual phraseology.
As far as thinking you will get a response, the only job of the occupants once the plane comes to a stop is to exit immediately and proceed at a 45 degree angle away from the aircraft. It isn’t to sit in the plane and talk on the radios.
Everyhing is terrible phraseology in these videos. I understand they want to land thousands of airplanes, but safety should be more important than that always.
Oshkosh controllers are known for their slow down comments with out any regard to the type of plane.
a disaster waiting to happen...
What is?
@@chrisnielsen9885 OshKosh... hundreds of planes all coming in within minutes of each other.. Pink Dots, Yellow Dots, Blue Dots.. RIght Bases, Left Bases... tight final to hit a color... groups of club planes all following each other and causing holds for other aircrafts.
@@pesto12601 and? Osh has like this forever
@@chrisnielsen9885 just because something has been like this forever doesn't mean a disaster isn't going to happen in the future!
@@pesto12601 it has the official backing of the FAA. Let it go
Twin Diamond arrived. Unsafe operations. I have been watching too many incidents . I would stay away. Poor way to operate. My AVEMCO policy excludes Alaska but policies should exclude this “exotic cowboy operation.”. By the way I am CFI, instrument airplane rated since the 1990s.
Do You suggest insurance shouldn’t cover airventure?
@@daniellamb7828I am suggesting that if I were an Insurance company I would exclude coverage for those events unless the aircraft operator/Pilot/Owner purchased a SPECIFIC INSURANCE RIDER. Insurance companies are in business to insure for loss. If an aircrsft operation increased the rusk of loss the people engaging in those risky operations should pay increased premiums. People who exercise wisdom in avoiding the aircraft equivalent of a "turkey shoot" should not have to suffer an increase of premiums because a limited population of pilots engage in statistically riskier operations... Those risk taking pilots need to pay for their ... ahem... adventurous air operations and not saddle the rest of us with their "fun."
@@daniellamb7828 I mean if I was an insurance company I'd consider not covering it (if legally possible). Its like taking your car to Nuremberg.
I'm sorry but the pedant in me have to point it out. "Both occupants were not injured." Which means one of them could be injured.
?
EDIT:
Both meaning 2 out of 2
Not Injured meaning NOT injured
2/2 NOT injured...
How can 1 of the 2 be injured if 2 out of the 2 are not. What are we talking about here? AHHHH
this is FAA / NTSB terminology, and it means both occupants were uninjured. Well, except their egos, but could have been worse.
@@rnzoli I find that hard to believe. Such terminology are usually designed to avoid any misinterpretation.
@@arnelilleseter4755 the preliminary and final reports have detailed injury tables for avoiding any misinterpretation, so nothing depends on the wording. Although the reports try to separate different crew roles and passengers, .e.,g " The pilot and passenger were not injured. " (CEN24LA079). The reports use "occupants" terminology at an early stage, when it is unclear, what the role of the occupants were. By the way, I made a search of "both occupants were not injured" and there are tons of hits, looks like this is also commonly used. Examples:
BBC: "Police want to check both were not injured during the incident."
ESPN Singapore: "Brooklyn, [...]r, was in the car with his father following a game with Brighton at London Colney, but both were not injured."
Yahoo News: "Boulder Valley School District told 9News that one student and a driver were on board the school bus at the time of the crash, and both were not injured."
Aviation Safety Network: "The student pilot [...] passed the controls to the instructor.
However, the latter was unable to regain control of the aircraft, which fell back by rolling over to the ground before coming to rest.Both were not injured."
So believe what you want, but it looks like the chances of both not having been injured, but individually one of them being injured, is exceptionally low.
Maybe you could do a little research and show an example, where that was the case?
@@rnzoli I still don't think this is official terminology. It's just bad English. That others have made the same mistake doesn't make it correct.
"Both occupants were not injured." can have two meanings, one of them were injured, or none of them were injured.
I'm not sure what you're asking me to researh. Accidents with two people involved were only one of them got injured? There are thousands of accidents every day. That must happen all the time.
lol what was with that janky ATC, thought this was a flight sim atc
it's oshkosh, spoken word and intense, direct aircraft control are the norm.
why let the controller fly the plane for you? He shouldn't be that involved in your turns
The controller was telling the pilot of the Twin Star how to fly his plane which he had no business doing. The controller is there to safely coordinate the aircraft in the landing and takeoff patterns, not to command individuals to perform maneuvers which they may not be able to comply with because of aircraft performance or flying characteristics. Yes, the pilot should have declined the instructions by stating he was unable to perform the requested maneuvers, but the controller sounded like a drill Seargent pushing for results.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, how the procedure works, or why it has to be done that way.
Oshkosh isn’t for FOMO pilot😂😂
This pilot was rushed to much given the urgency of the controller over control and the fact that there was only one behind him. Yes there are others inbound but regardless.
Flop/Yuck at Osh.
OshKosh where rich unskilled yoke holders go to crash perfectly good aircraft for views and likes on social media 😂 AirVenture is like a NASCAR race 95% of the spectators are there for the crashes.. It never disappoints in that regard 😅
I had problems in a twin Seminole at he local training airport with with all the 172’s and 152’s flying in the pattern at so much slower speeds. Can’t imagine what it’s like at Osh Kosh.
That’s a tad odd considering best single engine climb is 88 and Vmc is 56.
How fast were they teaching you to fly that tiny dump truck of a twin? lol 😂 That thing is all drag all the time.