The Problem with (most) Kayak Seats
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ธ.ค. 2021
- If you want to get good in a sea kayak, it takes time and practice. But is your seat hindering you? This may help you figure it out.
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Redfish Kayak makes nice custom foam seats. They pop right in and stay put. I got one for my Eddyline Sitka. It definitely improved the boat, though the rear deck is still a bit high for my taste.
those do look interesting.... my gears are turning, thanks for the recommendation.
For the love of Delta, I have to say they are fantastic with replacements. I bought a used 15.5 out of Portland Kayak's rental fleet that had the seat back disintegrate after I had the boat less than a year. They didn't have to do it, and it was just out of warranty, but they did send me a new seat back.
I can say that I have struggled to get the spray skirt on the combing if the seat back isn't in just the right position. For me it's a combination of arthritic hands, the seat back getting in the way, and the spray skirt I bought that has an overly strong bungee inside.
Thanks again for your videos. They'll help motivate me to get on the water when we're not pounded by these gale force winds like we are again today.
p.s.
I nearly forgot that I tried adding a less than 1inch foam cushion to the seat once, and it altered my center of gravity and destroyed my stability. As with cycling, using your sit bones effectively will increase your comfort, as opposed to adding stuffing which most people have too much of anyway.
Yeah in general I am super happy with Delta, and I have been working with them for a long time, but I am still struggling with the cockpit coaming… I think it just isnt aggressive enough for the stuff I am doing. I am going to continue to work with it, and try and figure it out. Glad you are enjoying the videos, I have a lot of interesting stuff coming up, so stick around.
What a great topic, I did catch your drift… very true
Im glad. Thanks for watching!
@@AdventureOtaku got your first book as paperback because I like to collect these. Almost done with it. Thanks
And here I thought I was weird for putting the back support all the way down. Being new to kayaking I really find your videos very useful. I appreciate your work
That’s the winning move. Glad you like the videos, thanks for watching.
To get back into kayaking I bought a little kayak with no seat back, thigh hooks nor hip padding. This forced me to sit up and gain core strength. After a couple of years I still haven't added the missing bits in and happy paddling for 4 hours or more. For me, if the seat back is above the coaming I just keep walking.
Yup…on the money.
Good comments Brett, like you I’ve removed a few seat back bands over the years and not missed them. One thing you mentioned in passing was the seat base and its role in rotation. It should be ‘slippery’ really but nearly none come like that. I’ve resorted to a temporary solution of very tough Gar bag black plastic taped over my four epic seat pads . Not too elegant but works really well. The seat pads work well to raise my torso height giving more stroke power. I think this seat height adjustability is a design thing gone missing too for us smaller paddlers. Thanks
Thanks for the comment, and stopping by. I hadn’t thought of wanting the base slippery, Ill play with that. Thanks.
Another of your excellent videos, super educational! It is like this, the seats of the kayak should not be like the one in the living room of our home. Thanks !!
That is exactly right! It shouldn’t be a “lazy boy” recliner.
Truth is, these seats are perfect. FOR FISHING SIT ON TOP KAYAKS! Fishing kayaks are equipped with pedal drive systems or even trolling motors. Even if you re paddling, its for short time. I have a seat on my kayak and I m paddling, but after 4 hours fishing , I m paddling for 30 minutes only, rest is vertical fishing. So i need a comfortable seat. High profile seats for touring kayaks is a no go. Especially when you paddle on big waves, you need all the freedom of movement!
yeah, they are great for fishing.... I have no problem with them in fishing kayaks. But as I said in the video, I am talking about high performance sea kayaks.... they don't work.
I paddle a cedar Strip Guillemot single kayak that I built 23 years ago. I bought some close celled foam and shaped it to my back side. For my back support I only use a back band. It gives me that support for my lower back and does not hinder my movements. I have spent 8 to 10 hrs in my kayak on multi day trips with all my camping gear. The only issue I have been dealing with is my sciatic nerve. My leg tends to fall asleep. This never happened when I was younger. I am now 53 yrs old. I have been stretching to help with this issue. Do you have any other advice that might help with this problem?
a good seat, as by NDK (Nigel Dennis) allows bodyrotation due to a more slippery seat, low pelvis support, ... Low rear deck allows for easy rolling, surfing, stern rudders, ...combined with a sloping back support, ....
Love the NDK seats. Thanks for watching.
I confess...I added extra support to my seat back. It is one unit, and the back reclined more than I want, so I sculpted a piece of closed cell foam attached to the back. it gives my lower back support it needs (it is a bit messed up) but I still sit totally upright, and have to trouble with rotation. The whole seat is molded fiberglass, so no problems with it collapsing during a wet entry. I know it wouldn't work for everyone, but it is good for me.
An part of this is finding what works for you. I have no problem with that. BUT I would add you probably need to work on your core strength, Which would not only help your paddling, but also probably help whatever is going on with you lower back. Im not saying it would fix it, but if you have an injury there it would be better supported by stronger core muscles. 90% of the people I work with, need to work on core strength.
Brett, I do agree. I own a wilderness tsunami. Personally I like the boat but the seat is pretty big. Previously I owned a Necky Looksha. I really like the performance of that boat. But it had a plastic seat that just wasn't comfortable after 2 or 3 hours of paddling. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.
Yeah, we need a revolution in kayak seats….
Brett your observations are spot on! I am entering touring kayaking from whitewater kayaking. Why don't they put whitewater seats in touring kayaks? They are low profile and adjustable. I really liked the fact that in severe conditions you can tighten up the back band for better handling and can also maximize your power stroke. And when you don't need it, you can loosen it. Keep up the good work. Thanks
Thanks for watching. I paddle with a lot of white water paddlers who crossover to sea kayaking, and white water boats always have better outfitting. Makes no sense.
Glad I came back to this video.
Finally took delivery of my Delta 17. Paddled for 3 hours and my lower back became so sore that I had to paddle to shore and take a break.
I moved to a sea kayak from a surfski which practically forces you into the correct posture due to the seat setup.
I think having the seat back caused me to try to use it to rest my back against and it absolutely made the float awful. I considered removing the seat back and moving to foam or wedging foam being the seat back to make it stiffer.
I also need to add a bit of foam as i am just slightly small for the thigh braces.
Overall though, I know I am going to like the kayak. I also need to figure out my water situation for the MR340. I may drill a hole into the rear bulkhead to run camelback hoses through it. I know you ran a screw through yours, any advice before I go drilling into the bulkhead?
Thank you
hmmm... I don't think I drilled a hole in the bulkhead? I may have but I just don't remember it? I drilled holes in the deck for my deck compass.... no real advice, measure like 4 times and drill once! If you are putting a hose through it I would find some form of O ring gasket for the hole to protect the hose.
Glad they got you a boat and it wasn't damaged. super glad that got resolved.
Yes. Surfski's are really a very different animal - yet I commonly get surfski/wing paddlers who tell me Im doing it all wrong, despite the fact that paddling a ski and a sea kayak is really very different. But yes, spend some time outfitting the cockpit, make it just right for you. This is something I am still playing with and am about to add a little more foam down under my heals. Enjoy that boat!
@@AdventureOtaku I could have sworn you put a screw through the bulkhead for your seat upgrade video. I may have been mistaken.
Ive read that putting holes in the bulkhead isn't usually an issue and some people do it to "vent" the rear storage. Still a bit nerve inducing to cut/drill into a $3K investment.
Thanks again
@mosulmedic7048 ya know, I could have… I need to rewatch the video…
Good information, I resonate with the seat/backrest world angst. 🙄
I repair kayaks and offer optimal fit and performance classes for folks. I have some additional thoughts on seat design benefits & drawbacks. Kayak seats can be rim mounted so the body weight is supported or hung from the cockpit cowling, it can have that and have additional weight support under the seat compressing on the floor of the kayak or it can be a sit pad completely supporting the body weight entirely from the floor of the kayak. Some seats can be removed and/or adjusted, some can't. The backrest can be integral to the seat design or completely independent of it and can also be removable/adjustable or not. Each design, (seat and backrest) has its own benefit vs drawback quotient within a range and can be modified and/or repaired for optimal fit and performance.
I've often thought of cutting an entire kayak in 2 pieces lengthwise right down the middle and mounting it on a platform so a model could sit in it while half of the kayak can be taken away for demonstration purposes of design & function, posture, fit & performance and adjustments.
Yeah, as I said in some other comments, we need a revolution in kayak seat design. Thanks for the comment
I took a lesson a few weeks ago in a WD Tsunami. When we were doing rescues, a couple of times as I slid into the cockpit, the seat back folded forward and I had to try and raise my butt and try to lift the seat back into place. If the seat back doesn’t spring up on its own another capsize seems all but guaranteed. Not just frustrating when you’re learning but I would think dangerous in a real situation in bumpy water. As I’m watching this there is a recommended video on how to make a custom kayak seat. I just saved that to “watch later”.
Which is why I keep my seat back as low and as far back as possible. And why in my review of the delta I said I wished it had a higher performance seat back. You hit the nail on the head.
Yeah, I keep saying I am going to change out the seat back but I never do. I think I have pissed Delta Kayaks off enough….
Great info as usual. You have a good list of stretches for kayakers?
THank you. I don’t have a list of good stretches for kayakers, I have a personal trainer that I send my clients too who need help. Also, stretching prior to activity isn’t really a thing anymore. Check out my trainer on Insta. Lark Fitness.
@@AdventureOtaku Thanks but I won’t have anything to do with Facebook. I was just hoping to get my trunk rotation a wee bit more dialed in. Great info nonetheless.
Last wet exit (at kayaking classes) did a self rescue and seat back was under my butt. Instructor said I had to get it behind me and get the spray skirt back on to "pass". I slid forward, feet at bulkhead and knees hitting the deck, grabbed the back, leaned as far forward as possible and pulled like crazy, I am sure I warped it. Of course this isn't conducive to balancing and avoiding another wet exit.
Back on land instructor showed me the foam block he uses as a seat back.
Note to self. Release the seat back tensioner, ram it down as low as possible. check seat back before rotating into cockpit.
Yeah, this is the perfect example. I keep my seat back as far back and as low as I can. And it mostly stays out of the way.
I removed the seat from my kayak, took a large piece of foam, and carved it out to fit my butt. I've also found that I don't really need a backrest. I took some foam and padded around the coming so it wouldn't bother my back when rolling or doing a static brace. For myself, the simpler, the better.
This is what you do if you build a boat. Cedar strip and stitch and glue boats for example. I bet it was comfortable once you got it all dialed in.
Brett, I would be interested in your thoughts as to whether a backband allows the rotation of the core better than a regular seat back. It is definitely below the coming.
Backhand is absolutely better, as it doesn’t get in the way as much - literally less contact with it. Which is why high performance touring kayaks have back bands not seat backs.
So could you remove the seat back of your Delta 17 and put in a foam block? Are there modifications to get the seat back out of the boat & out of the way? Thanks for the great video.
FYI - Just finished a self rescue class with an Eddyline Sitka with an Eddyline Seat Band. I was able to move the seat all the way back and jam the plastic spring arm under the combing which eliminated the seat back from moving away from the combing. My re-entries were free of any sitting on the seat back issues. Of course, now the boat did not fit me well since the fixed position thigh braces were now by my knees with little contact and I had less control of the boat and it was uncomfortable paddling it - but I did pass the self rescue test. I will try moving the seat back to where I need it positioned for the thigh braces to function, loosening the seat back so it is back our of the way & still possibly jammed under the back combing & try to develop some core strength.
What you did with your seat back is pretty much where my seat back is all the time. I have it lowered all the way, and reclined all the way so it is out of the way. And to the Foam Block, that is essentially what I ended up doing in my older boat. I also paddled a boat for a day on a NOLS course without any seat back at all (it had broken) and the NDK explorer doesn’t really have a seat back. Just a little foam.
I removed the seat assemblies from most of my boats. I replaced them with a Bumfortable seat or a closed cell foam seat. None of them have a back. However, all of them position my body to where I don't require back support.
Seat backs fail for all the reasons you mentioned, and most of the seats are designed to require a seat back.
The furniture most Westerners use makes for quite weak core muscles. Most are unable to crouch without their legs falling alseep by the time they hit 30.
Agree on all counts. Ill be making changes to the seat in my delta this year.
@@AdventureOtaku I "lucked out" with my Epic 18X. I accidentally dropped it coming off of my roof rack. The only damage was that it dislodged the seat track for the fiberglass seat. I used that as an excuse to move to a Bumfortable foam seat. The Bumfortable weighs about 10 ounces. The fiberglass seat assembly weighed over 4 lbs. I was concerned about back support until I used it the first time. Those Bumfortable seats position your spine in a way that you just don't need a back band. Upright or forward leaning are the most comfortable. Also no interference with a backward leaning roll. I just put a dense foam wedge behind the seat similar to the "good seat" you were showing.
I noticed that my ability to crouch for extended periods (like in camp or lunch in shore) really improved after paddling without a back support. Humans really aren't built for back support.
Thanks for making this video and highlighting a much overlooked aspect of kayaks.
Yep and for some of us decrepit old people, we like to have a seat back to rest against when we need it, especially with my history of back injuries.
I can still rotate 90 degrees for draws strokes, sculling, edging and sweeps, I just don't lean against the seat back for those.
sorry, it's an NDK (Nigel Dennis Kayaks) Romany. P&H's doesn't have a romany. P&H suffers the same problem with back supports too high, flipping forward when entering the kayak, Pieces falling apart, ...
Yeah for some reason my brain confuses the Romany and the Capella.. go watch the review I did of the Romany, I talk about it there
Hi I have a burning question. I just got my new sea-kayak (Boreal Design Baffin P3) and have allready been on several trips, each between 2 and 4hour length. My problem tough, is that my legs starst starts to cramp up after only 15minutes of paddling. After 30minutes they are completely numb if I don’t change position of my feets. I have tried almost everything from adjusting the position og the foot pegs, tilting the seat up, adjusting the backrest but the problem is still there. Whats the problem? Is it the seat?? The seat in baffin is not contoured (it is relatively flat) but it is padded. Do I need to fit extra pads on the side? Is it normal to get a leg cramp by paddling?
Baffin is a great boat. But to your burning question… it is super common, unfortunately there isn’t one answer. You are on the right track, that you need to find the right combination of padding and position which is different for everyone, which is why there isn’t one answer. I will say that more frequently it is a foot peg problem, but not always. Here are a couple of things to think about.
Sit on the floor, as if you were sitting in your kayak. Try to mimic the position you are in, in the boat as closely as possible. It is far easier to tweak your position sitting on the floor to find the appropriate change than in your kayak. Once you find the right position on the floor, then recreate it in the boat. Watch a movie sitting on the floor. Take some time to find what works for two hours. (This is also a good indicator of core strength)
You have two things going on, which I suspect is two problems. Cramping is usually a lack of flexibility, or weakness. The muscles are stressing resulting in a cramp. Strengthen the muscles or work on flexibility in legs, bottom, lower back. Yoga is great for this.
Numbness is usually blood flow. Finding the right position usually fixes it. Sometimes adding padding in the right place helps this as well. But too much padding can be bad as well.
Email me if you need more help!
@@AdventureOtaku Thank you so much for your reply👍☺️I’ll buy you a coffee
That is why i only use performace sea kayaks
Those seat backs generally start appearing in boats in the 4k range…. More than this paddling instructor can afford.
Lol ive made my way back to you
Not sure where you went but welcome back
Surf skis have the best seats.
I recall them being shaped well, but hard…..
Rather than bitching that people have weak core, why not link to something helpful. I’m 71 and don’t have the strength or flexibility that I had when I was younger. We paddle within our limits, but hearing you complaining is not helpful.
Hey, thanks for watching. Here are some answers. A) I just rewatched the video because I made it 2 years ago, and I don’t think I was either bitching or complaining. B) Why not link to something helpful? Like what? Exercises you can do to build your core? Im honestly not sure what kind of link you want, but I can’t link to exercises for core strength because it would be dangerous in terms of someone injuring themselves and blaming me for it. Also, if you are sitting in your kayak correctly, and paddling using your core, you will build that core strength, which…. Hey, I said in the video! Isn’t that helpful? C) it is sensational that you are paddling, but guess what? NO ONE has the strength and flexibility they had when they were younger - and at 56 I experience this every season. And my goal is to be paddling at 71 and beyond. Last summer I did 2 days of lessons with a guy who was 75 (now 76 and still paddling) Before he met with me he worked for six months with a personal trainer to get ready for it. So my advice to you is hard. Either work hard every day to maintain the strength and flexibility you have, or you are going to lose it. It is that simple. And you can gain some back as the guy I trained did. I hope that is helpful. If you want more, go over to KoFI and schedule an appointment with me and I will come up with specifics. None of what I just said is bitching and none of it is complaining. They are hard facts. Work hard, to work harder! Oh, and hey, I did a video specifically for older paddlers. Check it out. th-cam.com/video/zBBl86C2fHg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=62XAe1pd1LVehmJC