10 Round Load Development Explained - What's Good and What's Bad
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- The 10 Round Ladder test (10 Round Load Development) is often misunderstood on what it is good for, and what it isn't. In this video I explain how the test is ran, how to interpret the data, and show an example how this can be used to save components during test.
Load Development Playlist - • Stop Chasing the lands...
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I use the method frequently but at 3X per load sample, combing velocity node data with 3 shot groups. 3 shot groups only tell me what the rifle doesn't like but more data is always a good thing. Another excellent video!!
That's what I do also. No only is the data more meaningful, but the more times I get to pull the trigger, the better I like it!
And sometimes the chronograph wont register the Speed.
As Aristotles said:
“The more you learn, the more you realize how much you still don’t know...”
We spoke at length in one of your earlier videos, about this very subject, and I have to say that I have begun load development again for the .338. I shot my first .25 MOA group out of this gun, after many many failed attempts. I haven't chronographed the load for velocity yet, though I don't really care... I SHOT A .25 INCH GROUP!!!
Thank you for reinvigorating my interest in my gun, and this caliber.
Thanks for the video. It's a tough topic. Questioning its validity is fighting words for some. And thank you for calling out that it can work, but also has limitation. Especially if you are looking for statistically significant results. My general concern (which I think you touch upon) is that when you are looking for nodes, you are looking for a non-linear relationship between load weight and velocity. This can work IF your per load weight muzzle velocity variability (effectively your SD value) is small enough that it doesn't cover up any nodes. If however how your reload is resulting in high SD value for each charge weight, then the randomness of single shot per charge weight can create what look like nodes in your curve, but they may not be real. This means you could repeat the process again and find different flat spots in your curve. This is just because your shot to shot velocity has enough variability in muzzle velocity so as to create fake nodes. In short, if your SD is high and the nodes you are looking for happen to be small, you run the risk of chasing your tail and picking non-existent nodes. If you naturally have very low SD in your reloading workflow AND the nodes you are chasing are larger than what might be covered up by your SD, then this CAN work. The problem is... until you shoot more rounds per charge weight, you just really don't know for sure. While it does burn more consumables, I do five shots per charge weight. Once you do this, you can feel confident that the nodes are real and also see where some fake ones might exists if you build a curve using random single shots per charge weight.
A key point that many new reloaders will miss is you can't just start your Saterlee test without a standard warmup process using fouler rounds and shooting as many as necessary until you get consistent velocity readings.
First! Good run down of the pro/cons of this load method. So much better than throwing a dart method.
Great info. Along with having a dialed in reloading process, fireformed brass is very helpful in weeding out inconsistent pressures caused by case volume changes.
I did the 10 round method with 5 shots each and compared the data if i were shooting 5 10 shot strings. They all would have told me something different and not one would have suggested the node i am at right now with an es of 12, sd of 5 and 5 shots at .18 moa at 100y from a savage elite precision.
100% agree that good reloading practices are integral. They way I do 10 round development is after the initial ladder I test seating depth. Then go back and do another test +/- .3 grains around the node I am exploring to validate my results. Usually this takes 25-30 rounds and has served me well. My PRS rifle has the same load since day one and now has 2,650 rounds on the barrel and still shoots sub 1/2 minute without any chasing the lands nonsense
Wonderful content on all your videos! Finally someone providing real data. In order to recreate your tests on my rifles and ammo I need to understand your range setup. Can you describe your optics and bench rest ? Your data seems to suggest that you can see and hold for 0.1 moa resolution groups.
Great Vid, Thanks for the indepth explanation.. I am just getting to this stage of my reloading..
Good luck!
Like your videos....I am a follower. No much to comment on. You got it covered. Thanks
I appreciate that!
Thanks for another great video !
Glad you enjoy it. 👍🏻
An alternative way of running this test is to look at the two closest bullet holes on successive shots. On your first shot graph, shots #6&7 are the closest with a 15 fps spread. Load some test rounds in the middle of that node and do the same for the two successive shots that resulted in the two farthest away holes, which I forget what two they were. You will see the difference and it will be repeatable. Thanks for giving kudos to Creighton Auddette. Mike Satterwho? 🤔😉🤐
Great information. Thanks for sharing 👊🇺🇸👍
Glad you enjoy it!
I love your videos - very good information. You and Eric Cortena need to write a book. Not for newbies but for intermediates. You've changed the format, now we're seeing a little gut with the hand. Lol
Hi Tim, glad you enjoy the content. I am trying to change a couple things around. I hope you like the changes.
@@BoltActionReloading I am an engineer and manage a team of Modeling and Simulation experts from Lincoln Labs and JHU/APL. I watch your videos and it's all analysis and M&S. Just give me the facts! Love it. I don't have to listen to goofy music in the background or 15 minutes of music intro. Good Job! Most of your work is a demonstration of good study and use case, and you are critical of your own processes, that matters. Most people with TH-cam how-to videos are so wrapped around themselves to be critical of their methodology, even when they prove or disprove their point.
@@timothyrichburg7331 Thank you. That is certainly a high compliment. I try to just give the facts and allow others to analyze what the data means for themselves. Glad that comes through.
i've used it in 6.5 grendel and taken it out to 1000 yards. Plenty accurate for me!
Good content. I look forward to the next.
This video proves to me that load development is just a guessing game. If you go off a traditional ladder test shots 5,6,7,8, have almost no vertical dispersion yet they have the highest change in velocity from shot to shot. Following this method shots 1,2, and 3 have almost no velocity spread but groups terribly vertically. I know that seating depth is used to tighten groups but I don't see why you would pick a group twice as wide to begin with just because the speed is marginally more consistent. Any info on this would be appreciated because I cannot come up with a system for my guns. I've tried ocw, ladder tests, and this method on hunting rifles but the problem is my hunting rifles shoot anywhere from .75 to over 6" groups depending on load. Most people making these videos are using precision rifles not hunting rifles.
Hello, can I find your excel worksheet online somewhere? Thank you in advance for your reply. Kind regards Marc
3:24 - "Start at max load and work backward" ... 3:49 - "Always start testing at the lowest charge".... So which is it?
When calculating your minimum load to test, determine the max you want to get to get to and work backward. When firing the rounds, start at the minimum, looking for pressure as the charge weights get hotter in case the max load is over pressure.
Great video! Do you recommend, or have you used, this method for giraffe throat rifles where tuning the COAL will be limited?
Agreed 100%. Great Info Sir.
This 10 round test is best done after seating depth testing, doing seating depth in small increments 3-4thou and finding the widest window of accuracy, then moving to powder testing.
I would like to see a video done like this. New brass, pick your bullet and powder. Do 3 shot groups testing seating depth in 4 thou steps. 6 steps starting at 0.050” off the lands. Then run a 10 step ladder test with the depth in the middle of a seating node. Pick the middle of a powder node and run that load for a 10 shot group at 300 + yards.
How so? Is there a link you can provide so I can read up on it? Thank you.
steve p. Good plan but I wouldn't use a 3-4 thou increment because any bullet in the box can vary that much in tip or ogive length from the next bullet. I would do 10 thou incs. Unless you are sorting your bullets to ogive length.
Great info 👍
Thanks!
I started 2x / sample and use the average velocity. Hadn't paid much attention to groups. However I have started paying attention to the ES more. A great SD but a poor ES won't group well at long distance, I've read.
I use the RCBS charge master and have found it to be .1gr higher than my Reddimg Beam scale. Just wondering if the .1 makes that much difference when shooting steel. Weighing 2x I'm probably wasting time.
I'm reloading for a AR 6.5 and was wondering what I should do differently than reloading for a 6.5 bolt? Trying to have 2700 fps load.
Thanks for your time.
I got a 30 round temp test. I spray and pray I hit the target. Once I realized I missed every round my temp goes up and blast off another 30 rounds. Realizing I missed all those my temp sky rockets and I blast all the ammo I got. My results may very but help most that suffer from high temps. Binary targets also help cool off the temps.
Any alcohol involved in these "tests"? 😆
I thought we were going to get to see the results of your neck tension method using the amp press on new brass?
The weather and work did not cooperate this week. It's coming.
@@BoltActionReloading Work? Unacceptable!
JK looking forward to results
Me too! I have big plans for that brass when it's fired.
Just wondering why you won’t show your face? Thanks for the very informative videos
He might be an LEO and doesn’t want his face out there…
What program are you using to graph your information?
I am using a shotmarker system. It records and measures everything automatically.
Herter's.... Is it European?
Herters name got bought out by Cabelas and it says on the side that it was loaded by S and B. I assume they used their brass. Headstamp is Herters.
@@BoltActionReloading s&b has become quite popular in south Africa, their primes although hot are surprisingly consistent, haven't really used their brass for any except 22 hornet, not bad but basically on par with PPU
You cover every thinkable variable you can think of!!! Then you use a temperature sensitive powder and talk about pressure in hot conditions, and I’m hmmm, why?
Hi Kurt, I guess I don't understand your comment. This info is not supposed to specific to Temp stable powders, though obviously I prefer them. Just because they are "stable" doesn't mean there is not a pressure shift with temperature change its just less.