"Any damn fool can be uncomfortable" - British Army saying. Discomfort means fatigue, fatigue means a less effective soldier. I remember the tale of the allied army soldier who came to train with, IIRC, the (British) Royal Marines in the Jungle. He tried to show how tough he was by sleeping directly on the ground, with minimal comforts. The RM went right ahead with setting up their sleeping arrangements involving 'field expedient' hammocks and laughing at him - in the morning they would be fresher and not bitten by potentially poisonous bugs. On top of which, the more uncomfortable equipment is the less it is worn. Its one of the issues with civilian PPE. For example fishing is the pclose to being the most dangerous job in the UK and Lifejackets the simplest and cheapest measure that could reduce the death toll. But a huge proportion of Fishermen don't wear them, even though having them aboard is compulsory. There are a lot of thing involved in this but comfort is certainly a significant factor. I can imagine the commander of a 14th Cent unit being quite keen that the Aventails of all his troops were lined, even though the Knights were providing their own Harnesses. He wouldn't want to be always on the lookout for some 'damn fool' removing his helmet when there was still an enemy threat.
I see one more advantage to a lined aventail: Less friction between the aventail and the rest of the armour and therefore more mobility for the head. I have worn armour with an un-lined coif over maille, and I can tell you: It created a lot of friction, making a really irritating noise and causing the maille of the coif to "bite into" into the maille hauberk at the most inconvenient times restricting your head movement. When you wear a coif or aventail and move your head, the maille tends not to twist or bundle up like cloth would but rather follow your head movement, only if it becomes snagged will it start to twist but with none of the elasticity of cloth. A lining would make sure, that the maille could follow your head movements without unnecessary friction or fear of it becoming stuck, regardless whether you were wearing maille, plate or a cloth or leather covered brigandine/coat of plates underneath. Another benefit, which is perhaps less of an issue, but still worth mentioning is, that the lining also reduces the wear and tear that the aventail inflicts on the rest of the armour.
+Finkeren Agreed, I can personally attest to a lined aventail causing less 'drag' on the rest of the armor and it definitely makes it move more coherently.
+Finkeren I can't really imagine how someone won't use a liner. It is cheaper than the Mail and ads very much to the comfort. On other point is the noise. A lined armor won't clatter so much. Some disadvantage may be less hearing and less breathing through the mail. But that depends more on the padding than on the lining.
Nighti88 When I was using the coif it was with a padded cap and an aketon with a tall collar, so there was padding to be sure, it just wasn't attatched to the maille. But yeah, a coif with lining would've been a lot better.
Another advantage of having a lined aventail is that it protects the mail from your salty sweat. My mail coifs which came into direct contact with skin during exercise became rusty very quickly in those spots. It may not apply for an avantail as much becuse it hangs further away from the skin but contact with sweaty skin could still happen. Another advantage could be that it protects the skin from cold or heat as the metal in the mail transfers heat and cold much more than the padding (deppending on the outside temperature, like winter or desert conditions). It could also avoid eventual oil from the mail getting on the face.
That effigy around 4:00 is an impressive work, but it's really interesting, that the details stop at the side, because the crowd is seeing the sculpture from the side by default.
+Knyght Errant Here's a suggestion for a video you might like. You once did armour measurement video where you measured the weight of every armour piece from the suit that you own and compared it to the weights of historical armour pieces. Now, how about you do an armour thickness measurement video? I think some people will be interested to know what are the approximate thicknesses of you armour pieces compared to historical ones.
+Tork789 Yes, this is one of the compromises of modern reproduction vs historical armor. Differential thickness is easy to control in a forged plate from a piece of bloom steel. Not so much in modern perfectly uniform manufactured sheets of steel. Historical pieces, especially things like helmets and breastplates were thicker toward the center than the edges.
+Knyght Errant I would LOVE to see a video about thicknesses. I've been searching around the internet and have only really found the generic phrase "historical armor thickness varies throughout the piece" but haven't found any actual numbers.
What does it do to the temperature inside of the armor? Could you maybe do a video sometime on how weather conditions effect armor wearing and like how they would prepare for rain or cold? I'm loving the videos as usual!!!!! Keep up the great work!
All these primary source examples really just say to me that the prime historical inaccuracy is in leaving your aventail liner linen undyed :) More red gambesons and aventail liners!
In regards to ancient/medieval artwork, I sometimes wonder how often the following happened: Patron: "You forgot X." / "X doesn't exist." Artist: "... Oh."
You should also remember that this is European armour, most of Europe is pretty cold for the majority of the year, do that warm lining is probably quite nice when you're not fighting.
+Hedge Twentyfour You're exaggerating. I'm living in probably the most average European climate (Poland) and about half of the year I'm comfortable in nothing but a t-shirt (others usually wear something more as they're not as cold resistant as me, but still, it's not that bad).
Człowiek Wiking There are more hot-blooded people like you, but most prefer not to wear t-shirt half the year. I'm not saying it's Siberia, it's just more comfortable for most people to have some warm cloth, as opposed to equatorial countries where it would be sweltering.
+Człowiek Wiking In the MA world climate was a bit colder than today. You can see that even today, if you compare the winters your grandparents are talking about with that lousy winters we get these days.
Nighti88 Actually, the Middle Ages are known to climatologists as the Medieval Warm Period. It was about as warm as nowadays. The cold period you're talking about is the Little Ice Age, beginning of which is dated to anywhere from late Middle Ages (first symptoms) to mid-seventeenth century (first really harsh winters).
Dear Ian, you have spoken about bevor plates in your videos about the transition between the houndskull bascinet and the great bascinet. What I have seen in most artworks is the presence of aventails beneath the bevor plates, in your opinion, would a pizan be recommended as well? If not necessary?
Could you go further on this topic and make a video about mail coifs? I think that they often look stupid and impractical when worn by people today, but I think it's because they're made and/or worn incorrectly and therefore it's plain to the eye that something's wrong. For example, people wearing them with little or no padding underneath, poor fitting, stuff like that.
kynght errant what is available a reliable vendor of a full rivited mail harness which can be used in sparring? Also what is a reasonable price i have to pay to for a full suit of mail which is coustom fitted to my joints? I really enjoyed the great hlem video, the fact that the great helm was worn over a another helmet really blew mind. Please keep up the great work.
have you considered that the liners could be separate from the aventail? Maby some werent sewn onto the aventail, but were two seprate pieces worn on top of o.e another. although sewn liners might have been more common.
Considered it, sure, but it's the less likely option. Can it be done? Of course. Is it as effective, probably not. Most of the evidence for aventail liners (sometimes they're referred to as _pavilions_ in documentary sources) suggests that the whole assembly should be behaving as a unit. It makes sense from a practical standpoint. If the mail can flop around and float above the cushioning it behaves very differently and you don't get the effect of the combination of the two materials. Suddenly blades can get between the two layers, the mail can get snagged on things and not drape into place etc... Was it ever done? Quite possibly, almost certainly, but its important in historical re-creation that we stick to what we do have evidence for, rather than trying too much to replicate what we 'don't know they _didn't_ do...' At the end of the day, it only takes about 5 minutes to complete that final step of sewing the hem down, and for an experienced person who did that all day, it would probably be something they could do without thinking about it.
While the concept is sound, some people overly pad the liner. I've seen some which are so stiff, they make the aventail stand off the shoulders, which is contrary to the purpose of having the mail. It shouldn't look like a mushroom cap, people.
I think the michelin man look comes from battle of the nations guys wanting to avoid broken bones... And also forgetting that quilted linen can be so much thinner than actual padding.
Knight Errant- Are there other variations of the padded mail coif combo? I seem to recall a full mail coif sandwiched between a layer of padding underneath and what looked to me a suede top cover, with some rivets spaced along the edge and up the side to hold it all together and keep the mail from bunching up inside. I planned make one similar but want it to be truly documented. I could just be misunderstanding some Renaissance tournament kit but I like the idea for my own 13th century combat rig. Any thoughts good sir?
I know that some Japanese (and some other east Asian countries) mail armors were lined (or sewn between two layer of clothes like brigandines). Is there evidence in medieval Europe of full mail shirts being sewn to a fabric or padded liner? I heard about mail gussets being sewn to the padded vest, but that's about it. Edit: In fact, not only mail, Does any armor have a fabric liner?
I believe there's an order for armour of a inventory of someone's armour, and there are a number of jacks "stuffed" with mail or horn. There's also a 12th century Islamic source that mentions two layers of mail sewn into a padded jacket.
+Moradin1976 Hi! I own a couple silicone Halloween masks from Composite Effects (compositeeffects.com/mystore/index.php?route=product/category&path=107 ) and those head forms come with the masks. They're available for separate purchase there as well.
+Clanfear Probably, but as of right now, people like Matt Easton already cover weapons quite well so I'm not sure what more I can add other than maybe how they interact with armor.
I would be curious to see your armor tested against bodkin arrows. I know it is a risky thing but most of videos i see are with armors of horrible quality
+the Creative Assembly machinimas There is a good documentary by Mike Loades on english longbowmen that you can find on youtube. It's probably the most objective one out there, the conclusion is essentially that bodkin arrows can penetrate armor if the conditions are right (good power, close range, right angle, etc.), but the degree of penetration isn't enough to really injure the wearer and the arrowhead gets completely blunted in the process. It probably did more damages on the thinest part of the armor though (like the sides of the helmet and chestpiece), but it wasn't tested. But Matt Easton did say that it was documented that man at arms were sometime worried about getting an arrow in the side of their helmet.
Knoloaify interesting! but to test in real life with side armor of the chest, arm and leg armor, rather than striking the middle of a chest plate, would be interesting,
+Knyght Errant indeed. I already have a liner on the hood I sewed into my bascinet. :) I am considering a faulded plate aventail aswell. Just... uh, goddamn money, why is it always a problem? :P
A successful method I've seen used is to take a length of poster board and curl it into a rough cone fitted to the inside of the aventail, and then once sized, lay the resultant cone out flat and work your pattern from that. It might give you a good starting point.
Is there by any chance a correlation between explicitly unlined avontails and the Crusades or Reconquista? My understanding is that typically the Arabs and Turks wore mail without padding at least at the beginning of the Crusades and the Europeans wore mail with padding. This sounds to me like a conscious protection/comfort trade off specific to the environment rather than ignorance of the protective benefits of layered linen, and I would expect some crusaders to have followed suit as the affair dragged on.
I bought a helm without an aventail, it has the studs protruding for the aventail. How do I attach it? Most aventails do not have holes in the leather, it seems like a do it yourself thing.
A lot of pre-made aventails will not have the holes because the spacing is going to be different on every single helmet. Here is a blog entry of mine that shows some details of how these are attached and removed : knyghterrant.com/index.php/2016/08/31/deep-bascinet-maintenance/
+KnightOfTheNight These videos are of my personal helmets: (Houndskull bascinet with 2 different visors and a kettle hat) th-cam.com/video/JYXu8LGddWU/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/TVRHYmD1ZT0/w-d-xo.html
Would love if you could do a video about maille coilfs. as many reproductions today looks a bit wierd. and same with many you see in the movies. Often you see coilfs with very huge openings. It is wide leaving the whole sides of the face unprotected. The opening often reach down beneat the chin. sometimes even leaving a gap belov the chin, an opening to the troath. I highly doubt that was how the historical ones looked. if looking at the historical artwork they seem to have had much smaller opening for the face, much more narrow and often just reaching down to just belov the lower lip. Sometimes even covering the mouth. And often in movies they are seen wearing maille coilfs without any padding
A lot of modernly reproduced mail coifs are kind of a joke compared to the real ones. Some people go to the opposite extreme and try to make them cover almost the whole face (like a modern cartoon ninja mask) or they over-pad them to absurd levels (most evidence points to rather thin padding for almost all historical mail). A friend of mine owns a very very nice reproduction of a coif, but it would require shipping to get it to me. Maybe I'll try to convince him to let me borrow it :)
Knyght Errant yeah i seen some of those with ridicolous padding Yes as far as i know the padding used under a coilf was not very thick. but even a thin padding makes a huge difference compared to no padding Hope you can borrow it, would be nice to see.
I have a question that does not belong directly to aventails but while watching this video i found out, that your mail doesn't make you dirty. If i touch my mail shirt my skin is black because of the metal dust. How do you prevent that?
+Knyght Errant well ok, thanks. But if you wear mail, there will allways be new metal dust from the rings, or will it not? How do you clean your mail? I do have 6mm RM mail.
My arming doublet is pretty discolored from my mail, and if I handle it my hands get dirty over time. If I just touch it lightly it gets my hands a little dirty, but it doesn't immediately turn my skin black. I usually submerge and agitate new mail in a bucket of equal parts water and 'simple green' cleaner. This gets all the grease and gunk off of it. Then I remove the mail from the liquid and dry it off as quickly as possible and then spray it down with something like Breakfree CLP firearm lubricant. You'll never get it to the point where it doesn't make you a little dirty, but if you apply too much oil, it will retain a lot of dust and grime just like a modern firearm.
+Knyght Errant thanks a lot for your very quick answer. I'll try to clean it this way and hope, that it will not rust away after taking it out of the cleaning water.
How did armored knights not constantly have heat strokes in hotter seasons? I'd imagine they would have to wear armor for long periods of time sometimes.
A method I'm using is to pour water on the places I sweat a lot on my gambeson (armpits, back et) before I put it on. The water Will work like a fridge, keeping you cool and keeping you from sweating a lot. It works realy well.
+aristocraig I also imagine that while they may had to wait around in armor for extended periods of time, little things like simply keeping your helmet off until you need it could go a long way.
+the Creative Assembly machinimas if you watch his videos where he puts on all of his armor, you'll notice that nothing is actually directly covering the crotch other than the mail haubergeon. so i'd imagine they could get their dick out of the braies in order to pee. and in the later 15th century when joined hose became popular, they had a flap that could be untied to get access to their crotch.
+the Creative Assembly machinimas I've put on my armour and tried ways of relieving myself. I've found what's pretty easy is to just take off the upper leg armour and then hold up the skirt.
+the Creative Assembly machinimas With the specific configuration of armor I wear, I can pee just fine by lifting the mail skirt and pulling down the front of braies. There are plenty of configurations of armor where this would be more difficult. In a real situation, where you were wearing armor because you need it to stay alive, I imagine you just did what you needed to do right in your armor and worried about it later.
+Knyght Errant i have read accounts of Pages who had the dirty job to clean armor from rust, sweat piss or even poop in some circumstances. Maybe they did piss or poop inside armor for the tension and psicological pain of being in battle rather than the inability to remove it. Thanks for answer.
Have you found evidence of tying the aventail down in any way? Seems like it would seriously get in the way if you fell over like those falling knights in the manuscripts.
Björn: No, I've never seen that, and I don't think it would be done for one simple reason: Head movement. Maille doesn't really like to twist too much, unlike cloth, and instead tends to follow whatever movement the wearer is making. I you watch Ians video about the bascinet and forward to the part where he puts it on, you can see, that the entire aventail actually rotates along when he moves his head. If it was tied down or fastened to the rest of the armour in any way, it would severely restrict head movement. For the aventail to actually fly up and completely cover the face, it would either have to be very long, or you'd have to be completely upside down, like if you're stuck to your horse hanging down, in which case the aventail would be the least of your problems. A lines aventail being more stiff would also be less likely to fly up in your face. All in all, the loss of head movement would simply not be an acceptable tradeoff.
+Björn Nilsson The Dijon St. George shows points for that purpose, though it's the exception to the rule. i45.photobucket.com/albums/f74/HRG2006/100_0407.jpg
I know next to nothing about this stuff... I would say yes why not? It's clearly more comfortable and offers slightly more protection. Now let's see if I'm right by fully watching this video Edit - yup I am lol
I MISS YOU SO MUCH PLEASE COME BACK WE NEED YOU 😭😭😭
"Any damn fool can be uncomfortable" - British Army saying.
Discomfort means fatigue, fatigue means a less effective soldier. I remember the tale of the allied army soldier who came to train with, IIRC, the (British) Royal Marines in the Jungle. He tried to show how tough he was by sleeping directly on the ground, with minimal comforts. The RM went right ahead with setting up their sleeping arrangements involving 'field expedient' hammocks and laughing at him - in the morning they would be fresher and not bitten by potentially poisonous bugs.
On top of which, the more uncomfortable equipment is the less it is worn. Its one of the issues with civilian PPE. For example fishing is the pclose to being the most dangerous job in the UK and Lifejackets the simplest and cheapest measure that could reduce the death toll. But a huge proportion of Fishermen don't wear them, even though having them aboard is compulsory. There are a lot of thing involved in this but comfort is certainly a significant factor. I can imagine the commander of a 14th Cent unit being quite keen that the Aventails of all his troops were lined, even though the Knights were providing their own Harnesses. He wouldn't want to be always on the lookout for some 'damn fool' removing his helmet when there was still an enemy threat.
I see one more advantage to a lined aventail: Less friction between the aventail and the rest of the armour and therefore more mobility for the head. I have worn armour with an un-lined coif over maille, and I can tell you: It created a lot of friction, making a really irritating noise and causing the maille of the coif to "bite into" into the maille hauberk at the most inconvenient times restricting your head movement. When you wear a coif or aventail and move your head, the maille tends not to twist or bundle up like cloth would but rather follow your head movement, only if it becomes snagged will it start to twist but with none of the elasticity of cloth. A lining would make sure, that the maille could follow your head movements without unnecessary friction or fear of it becoming stuck, regardless whether you were wearing maille, plate or a cloth or leather covered brigandine/coat of plates underneath. Another benefit, which is perhaps less of an issue, but still worth mentioning is, that the lining also reduces the wear and tear that the aventail inflicts on the rest of the armour.
+Finkeren Agreed, I can personally attest to a lined aventail causing less 'drag' on the rest of the armor and it definitely makes it move more coherently.
+Finkeren I can't really imagine how someone won't use a liner. It is cheaper than the Mail and ads very much to the comfort. On other point is the noise. A lined armor won't clatter so much.
Some disadvantage may be less hearing and less breathing through the mail. But that depends more on the padding than on the lining.
Nighti88 When I was using the coif it was with a padded cap and an aketon with a tall collar, so there was padding to be sure, it just wasn't attatched to the maille. But yeah, a coif with lining would've been a lot better.
Another advantage of having a lined aventail is that it protects the mail from your salty sweat. My mail coifs which came into direct contact with skin during exercise became rusty very quickly in those spots. It may not apply for an avantail as much becuse it hangs further away from the skin but contact with sweaty skin could still happen.
Another advantage could be that it protects the skin from cold or heat as the metal in the mail transfers heat and cold much more than the padding (deppending on the outside temperature, like winter or desert conditions). It could also avoid eventual oil from the mail getting on the face.
That effigy around 4:00 is an impressive work, but it's really interesting, that the details stop at the side, because the crowd is seeing the sculpture from the side by default.
+Knyght Errant
Here's a suggestion for a video you might like. You once did armour measurement video where you measured the weight of every armour piece from the suit that you own and compared it to the weights of historical armour pieces.
Now, how about you do an armour thickness measurement video? I think some people will be interested to know what are the approximate thicknesses of you armour pieces compared to historical ones.
+Tork789 Good idea. Maybe I'll invest in some calipers one day.
+Tork789 That actually may be allot more work than you realize. Most armor wasn't a uniform thickness across a piece.
+Tork789 Yes, this is one of the compromises of modern reproduction vs historical armor. Differential thickness is easy to control in a forged plate from a piece of bloom steel. Not so much in modern perfectly uniform manufactured sheets of steel. Historical pieces, especially things like helmets and breastplates were thicker toward the center than the edges.
+Knyght Errant I would LOVE to see a video about thicknesses. I've been searching around the internet and have only really found the generic phrase "historical armor thickness varies throughout the piece" but haven't found any actual numbers.
What does it do to the temperature inside of the armor? Could you maybe do a video sometime on how weather conditions effect armor wearing and like how they would prepare for rain or cold?
I'm loving the videos as usual!!!!! Keep up the great work!
"Historicity"? Is that a word?... *Googles it*... Well I'll be damned.
+1 for bringing up Tobias Capwell's new book. :)
Really enjoying your presentation and explanation in your videos. Can't wait for more, keep it up!
All these primary source examples really just say to me that the prime historical inaccuracy is in leaving your aventail liner linen undyed :) More red gambesons and aventail liners!
Men this channel was so awesome.
Epic intro, dude
In regards to ancient/medieval artwork, I sometimes wonder how often the following happened:
Patron: "You forgot X." / "X doesn't exist."
Artist: "... Oh."
Alright, you convinced me, I gotta line my Aventail! ...now to learn to sew I guess...
Love how nobody is mentioning the floating bascinet... We have a huge historical breakthrough here people!
You should also remember that this is European armour, most of Europe is pretty cold for the majority of the year, do that warm lining is probably quite nice when you're not fighting.
+Hedge Twentyfour You're exaggerating. I'm living in probably the most average European climate (Poland) and about half of the year I'm comfortable in nothing but a t-shirt (others usually wear something more as they're not as cold resistant as me, but still, it's not that bad).
Człowiek Wiking There are more hot-blooded people like you, but most prefer not to wear t-shirt half the year. I'm not saying it's Siberia, it's just more comfortable for most people to have some warm cloth, as opposed to equatorial countries where it would be sweltering.
+Człowiek Wiking In the MA world climate was a bit colder than today. You can see that even today, if you compare the winters your grandparents are talking about with that lousy winters we get these days.
Nighti88 Actually, the Middle Ages are known to climatologists as the Medieval Warm Period. It was about as warm as nowadays. The cold period you're talking about is the Little Ice Age, beginning of which is dated to anywhere from late Middle Ages (first symptoms) to mid-seventeenth century (first really harsh winters).
Człowiek Wiking This kind of armour was popular around the middle of the late medieval period, namely the 14th century.
I figured out the importance of the liner when i grew my first beard.Npt comfortable at all
I just want a full suit of armor
excellent, thank you.
Can you please make a tutorial how to sew aventail at linen please ?
SkeulIz i need that too
Thank you
Dear Ian, you have spoken about bevor plates in your videos about the transition between the houndskull bascinet and the great bascinet. What I have seen in most artworks is the presence of aventails beneath the bevor plates, in your opinion, would a pizan be recommended as well? If not necessary?
+Lord Leovuld Meadowgrove I would bet that in many cases the pizan or standard was still worn under a lot of the rigid neck defenses as well.
Could you go further on this topic and make a video about mail coifs?
I think that they often look stupid and impractical when worn by people today, but I think it's because they're made and/or worn incorrectly and therefore it's plain to the eye that something's wrong. For example, people wearing them with little or no padding underneath, poor fitting, stuff like that.
kynght errant what is available a reliable vendor of a full rivited mail harness which can be used in sparring? Also what is a reasonable price i have to pay to for a full suit of mail which is coustom fitted to my joints? I really enjoyed the great hlem video, the fact that the great helm was worn over a another helmet really blew mind. Please keep up the great work.
Some viking spectacle helmets had full face aventail. Do you think some of them had liners or not?
have you considered that the liners could be separate from the aventail? Maby some werent sewn onto the aventail, but were two seprate pieces worn on top of o.e another. although sewn liners might have been more common.
Considered it, sure, but it's the less likely option. Can it be done? Of course. Is it as effective, probably not. Most of the evidence for aventail liners (sometimes they're referred to as _pavilions_ in documentary sources) suggests that the whole assembly should be behaving as a unit. It makes sense from a practical standpoint. If the mail can flop around and float above the cushioning it behaves very differently and you don't get the effect of the combination of the two materials. Suddenly blades can get between the two layers, the mail can get snagged on things and not drape into place etc... Was it ever done? Quite possibly, almost certainly, but its important in historical re-creation that we stick to what we do have evidence for, rather than trying too much to replicate what we 'don't know they _didn't_ do...' At the end of the day, it only takes about 5 minutes to complete that final step of sewing the hem down, and for an experienced person who did that all day, it would probably be something they could do without thinking about it.
@@KnyghtErrant Agreed 100% What a long and detailed anserw. Humble thanks from your loyal peasen from Finland
Didnt know, that unpadded aventails were an actual considered idea ^^
Of course padded.
While the concept is sound, some people overly pad the liner. I've seen some which are so stiff, they make the aventail stand off the shoulders, which is contrary to the purpose of having the mail. It shouldn't look like a mushroom cap, people.
I think the michelin man look comes from battle of the nations guys wanting to avoid broken bones... And also forgetting that quilted linen can be so much thinner than actual padding.
Knight Errant- Are there other variations of the padded mail coif combo? I seem to recall a full mail coif sandwiched between a layer of padding underneath and what looked to me a suede top cover, with some rivets spaced along the edge and up the side to hold it all together and keep the mail from bunching up inside. I planned make one similar but want it to be truly documented. I could just be misunderstanding some Renaissance tournament kit but I like the idea for my own 13th century combat rig. Any thoughts good sir?
I know that some Japanese (and some other east Asian countries) mail armors were lined (or sewn between two layer of clothes like brigandines).
Is there evidence in medieval Europe of full mail shirts being sewn to a fabric or padded liner?
I heard about mail gussets being sewn to the padded vest, but that's about it.
Edit: In fact, not only mail, Does any armor have a fabric liner?
+TanitAkavirius Well, brigandines obviously, one was actually found in Jamestown. Solid breastplates were covered in fabric for a time.
I believe there's an order for armour of a inventory of someone's armour, and there are a number of jacks "stuffed" with mail or horn.
There's also a 12th century Islamic source that mentions two layers of mail sewn into a padded jacket.
Hello. Was just wondering were you got your helmet stand from? Thanks for excellent videos!
+Moradin1976 Hi! I own a couple silicone Halloween masks from Composite Effects (compositeeffects.com/mystore/index.php?route=product/category&path=107 ) and those head forms come with the masks. They're available for separate purchase there as well.
3:47 the texture didn't load properly
lol
hey man, will you eventually do videos about weapons too or it will be strictly about armour?
+Clanfear Probably, but as of right now, people like Matt Easton already cover weapons quite well so I'm not sure what more I can add other than maybe how they interact with armor.
I would be curious to see your armor tested against bodkin arrows. I know it is a risky thing but most of videos i see are with armors of horrible quality
+the Creative Assembly machinimas There is a good documentary by Mike Loades on english longbowmen that you can find on youtube. It's probably the most objective one out there, the conclusion is essentially that bodkin arrows can penetrate armor if the conditions are right (good power, close range, right angle, etc.), but the degree of penetration isn't enough to really injure the wearer and the arrowhead gets completely blunted in the process.
It probably did more damages on the thinest part of the armor though (like the sides of the helmet and chestpiece), but it wasn't tested. But Matt Easton did say that it was documented that man at arms were sometime worried about getting an arrow in the side of their helmet.
Knoloaify interesting! but to test in real life with side armor of the chest, arm and leg armor, rather than striking the middle of a chest plate, would be interesting,
+the Creative Assembly machinimas Buy me a replacement breastplate and I'll think about it. :)
I really need to buy a decently made maille aventail some time...
+Scatlan Da_Gonozal And then you should line it! :)
+Knyght Errant indeed. I already have a liner on the hood I sewed into my bascinet. :) I am considering a faulded plate aventail aswell. Just... uh, goddamn money, why is it always a problem? :P
+Knyght Errant Is there any good how-to about making up a pattern for lining an avantail that you know of?
A successful method I've seen used is to take a length of poster board and curl it into a rough cone fitted to the inside of the aventail, and then once sized, lay the resultant cone out flat and work your pattern from that. It might give you a good starting point.
Thanks Ian, that sounds simple enough to work - even for me.
Is there any type of mail you don't have to oil?
What about in the situation with a coif. Were they typically lined or not?
People absolutely wore padding under coifs... If you look at the paintings their heads tend to look extra rounded because of this
10:22 Whats a Pizan?
Is there by any chance a correlation between explicitly unlined avontails and the Crusades or Reconquista?
My understanding is that typically the Arabs and Turks wore mail without padding at least at the beginning of the Crusades and the Europeans wore mail with padding. This sounds to me like a conscious protection/comfort trade off specific to the environment rather than ignorance of the protective benefits of layered linen, and I would expect some crusaders to have followed suit as the affair dragged on.
I bought a helm without an aventail, it has the studs protruding for the aventail. How do I attach it? Most aventails do not have holes in the leather, it seems like a do it yourself thing.
A lot of pre-made aventails will not have the holes because the spacing is going to be different on every single helmet. Here is a blog entry of mine that shows some details of how these are attached and removed : knyghterrant.com/index.php/2016/08/31/deep-bascinet-maintenance/
Thank you : )
what helmet do you own
+KnightOfTheNight That would be a bascinet with a 'pigface' visor. Popular in mid to late 14th century.
+MRKapcer13 thanks
+KnightOfTheNight These videos are of my personal helmets:
(Houndskull bascinet with 2 different visors and a kettle hat)
th-cam.com/video/JYXu8LGddWU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/TVRHYmD1ZT0/w-d-xo.html
Also how effective are joint locks on a person in a 14 century full plate harness?
Would love if you could do a video about maille coilfs. as many reproductions today looks a bit wierd. and same with many you see in the movies.
Often you see coilfs with very huge openings. It is wide leaving the whole sides of the face unprotected. The opening often reach down beneat the chin. sometimes even leaving a gap belov the chin, an opening to the troath.
I highly doubt that was how the historical ones looked. if looking at the historical artwork they seem to have had much smaller opening for the face, much more narrow and often just reaching down to just belov the lower lip. Sometimes even covering the mouth.
And often in movies they are seen wearing maille coilfs without any padding
A lot of modernly reproduced mail coifs are kind of a joke compared to the real ones. Some people go to the opposite extreme and try to make them cover almost the whole face (like a modern cartoon ninja mask) or they over-pad them to absurd levels (most evidence points to rather thin padding for almost all historical mail). A friend of mine owns a very very nice reproduction of a coif, but it would require shipping to get it to me. Maybe I'll try to convince him to let me borrow it :)
Knyght Errant yeah i seen some of those with ridicolous padding
Yes as far as i know the padding used under a coilf was not very thick. but even a thin padding makes a huge difference compared to no padding
Hope you can borrow it, would be nice to see.
How does it behave when it is time to clean the mail ?
+Mozoto You just remove it. It doesn't take very long to redo the whipstitching (on the order of a few minutes).
I have a question that does not belong directly to aventails but while watching this video i found out, that your mail doesn't make you dirty. If i touch my mail shirt my skin is black because of the metal dust. How do you prevent that?
+Markus Kratochwil When I get new mail I thoroughly clean it and then just keep it lightly oiled.
+Knyght Errant well ok, thanks. But if you wear mail, there will allways be new metal dust from the rings, or will it not? How do you clean your mail? I do have 6mm RM mail.
My arming doublet is pretty discolored from my mail, and if I handle it my hands get dirty over time. If I just touch it lightly it gets my hands a little dirty, but it doesn't immediately turn my skin black. I usually submerge and agitate new mail in a bucket of equal parts water and 'simple green' cleaner. This gets all the grease and gunk off of it. Then I remove the mail from the liquid and dry it off as quickly as possible and then spray it down with something like Breakfree CLP firearm lubricant. You'll never get it to the point where it doesn't make you a little dirty, but if you apply too much oil, it will retain a lot of dust and grime just like a modern firearm.
+Knyght Errant thanks a lot for your very quick answer. I'll try to clean it this way and hope, that it will not rust away after taking it out of the cleaning water.
Drying it immediately is important, or it can rust right before your eyes.
7:20 I didn't think a smooth male would have any snagging problems.
Does anyone know a video were they show how to line an aventail?
How did armored knights not constantly have heat strokes in hotter seasons? I'd imagine they would have to wear armor for long periods of time sometimes.
A method I'm using is to pour water on the places I sweat a lot on my gambeson (armpits, back et) before I put it on. The water Will work like a fridge, keeping you cool and keeping you from sweating a lot. It works realy well.
+aristocraig I also imagine that while they may had to wait around in armor for extended periods of time, little things like simply keeping your helmet off until you need it could go a long way.
What did Knights do when they needed to poop or Piss? I have read that they did everything inside the armor
+the Creative Assembly machinimas if you watch his videos where he puts on all of his armor, you'll notice that nothing is actually directly covering the crotch other than the mail haubergeon. so i'd imagine they could get their dick out of the braies in order to pee. and in the later 15th century when joined hose became popular, they had a flap that could be untied to get access to their crotch.
+the Creative Assembly machinimas I've put on my armour and tried ways of relieving myself. I've found what's pretty easy is to just take off the upper leg armour and then hold up the skirt.
+the Creative Assembly machinimas With the specific configuration of armor I wear, I can pee just fine by lifting the mail skirt and pulling down the front of braies. There are plenty of configurations of armor where this would be more difficult. In a real situation, where you were wearing armor because you need it to stay alive, I imagine you just did what you needed to do right in your armor and worried about it later.
+Knyght Errant i have read accounts of Pages who had the dirty job to clean armor from rust, sweat piss or even poop in some circumstances.
Maybe they did piss or poop inside armor for the tension and psicological pain of being in battle rather than the inability to remove it. Thanks for answer.
Have you found evidence of tying the aventail down in any way? Seems like it would seriously get in the way if you fell over like those falling knights in the manuscripts.
Björn: No, I've never seen that, and I don't think it would be done for one simple reason: Head movement. Maille doesn't really like to twist too much, unlike cloth, and instead tends to follow whatever movement the wearer is making. I you watch Ians video about the bascinet and forward to the part where he puts it on, you can see, that the entire aventail actually rotates along when he moves his head. If it was tied down or fastened to the rest of the armour in any way, it would severely restrict head movement.
For the aventail to actually fly up and completely cover the face, it would either have to be very long, or you'd have to be completely upside down, like if you're stuck to your horse hanging down, in which case the aventail would be the least of your problems. A lines aventail being more stiff would also be less likely to fly up in your face.
All in all, the loss of head movement would simply not be an acceptable tradeoff.
+Björn Nilsson The Dijon St. George shows points for that purpose, though it's the exception to the rule. i45.photobucket.com/albums/f74/HRG2006/100_0407.jpg
+Björn Nilsson Another possible example contemporary to Mart's image (effigiesandbrasses.com/1368/1182/)
With no liner, you do not want to have a beard.
as I have long hair and want to keep it, linning look nicer.
I know next to nothing about this stuff... I would say yes why not? It's clearly more comfortable and offers slightly more protection. Now let's see if I'm right by fully watching this video
Edit - yup I am lol