One other critical thing about the difference between armour for warfare and armour for tournaments: in a tournament, you know you're going to get into a fight. In warfare, there are a lot of circumstances where you *might* get into a fight today. So you wear armour, perhaps partial armour, but you still need to be able to function. Say you're riding around as part of a small group harassing some of the other side's peasants. Most days you do that, there won't be a fight. But once a week or whatever, you'll run into some of their knights out to do the same. Even when the enemy are camped just on the other side of the river, and you know there will be a fight today, you're preparing to wear armour for most of the day. You'll want to be protected, but you'll also spend a lot of time just standing around in it. In a tournament, by contrast, you know (roughly) when you're going to be fighting. As a result, you can pile on the extra pieces of protection you won't wear day to day on campaign. Even compared to armouring up for an imminent battle, you can still have more kit, because you're gearing up in safety, for a fight that's going to happen right now, and don't need to be able to e.g. eat lunch if the morning ends up just being some skirmishing.
another point, that is already somewhat between the lines of what you said; in a tournament you probably know quite well which weapon the enemy has at hand and wear armour that properly counters this very weapon, same as your opponent does. There are various examples of tournament armour designed especially for lance breaking, others for fencing competitions ... the variaty of different helmets for late medieval/renaissance tournaments is huge. And the later in time we are, the more rules are applied to tournaments as it became more and more of a show-off event for noble men and soldiers of fortune (~14th century onwards) instead of warfair training for the troops (9th/10th century) which again, made it much easier to prepare for a very specific tournament fight than to prepare for warfair where you might break lances with enemies on first charge in a rain of arrows and then it goes against clubs, pikes and daggers in the mud ... much more chaotic than tournament, much more need for mobility and quick adaption.
I'm glad that you mention compromises for sport combat and the such, my close helm has larger oculars and more breaths than historical ones, but it makes using it a lot better for someone who doesn't have to worry about a sharp blade coming into my visor
Thank you for taking time Mr. Errant, I appreciate your videos regarding medieval armours and the detailed explanation you provide. It helps me alot, though not as an reenactor/armourer but as an 3D artist focused on recreating medieval times - we have big problems figuring out those sophisticated shapes too, especialy with armets and other 16th century armours..
Your beard gets better with each video! Have you ever wished that you were born as a nobleman during the time periods that your replicas embody? I suspect you would have made an excellent Knight or something of higher class, so long as you'd be willing to dress yourself in the best armor to denote your wealth and serve or protect your realm. Also, if you were a nobleman on your armored steed, what weapon(s) would you preferably/personally choose to carry with you? If you're ever able to get your hands on a true antique piece from the era and talk to its history, you'll add a new patron to help support your exquisite objective knowledge sharing. Your editing is impeccable. Maybe do a video of horse armor that warhorses would have adorned, if that really was a thing? I wouldn't expect you to have any on hand (hehe), but your editing skills would allow you to show examples and I'd find that very valuable (haven't seen any videos from anyone about that), though your demographic may not be interested. I watch these for the history and am in no way interesting in reenactment.
My nephew walked in around 6:45 and saw the non-historical versus historical face shape and exclaimed and I quote "I knew all knights had to have mustaches!"
Love you man ! I have modified a GDFM houndskull Bascinet based on your descriptions . Opened the facial at the bottom to the diameter of the helmet , added the necessary extra vervelles . It was necessary to bend the facial opening to allow clearance for the top vervelles . Other than skull shape it looks pretty historical now . Thanks for for being there .
I am very much inclined to agree with you, A lot of helmets have errors, some for the good reason of safety but most due to the simplified design for mass production. Even my own Bascinet which I consider to be of a very high quality, isn't a perfect recreation, after all it's purpose isn't for war, it's a Tournament helmet made to allow people to fight safely for sport rather than conflict. Really enjoyed this episode, look forward to future videos along this line.
+IGCommissarJake Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I agree with what you've said. I think where the problem arises is when people start to take this stuff too personally, but as you said, our modern reproductions are not meant for real medieval warfare, so modern concessions aren't a statement on the value of the individual wearing it, even though some people tend to take it that way.
Thanks. In this 're-enactor' world, a lot of people go out of their way to feel like people are telling them they're not doing it 'right.' Hence the disclaimer :) Some people take great offense to factual historical information if it doesn't align with the stuff they bought, heh...
I fight in the SCA, and I had to go and pull out my bascinet to take a look about halfway through the video. I really like how you describe the features of a historical helmet, but then acknowledge why modern ones differ. Your point about the abuse that a helmet takes in SCA fighting is spot on. Thanks for taking the time to help educate us!
To further support the impetus of this video, I own the GDFB klappvisier, and whenever the lining is properly fitted to my head, the helm leans forward, creating the slanted face opening that's built into better helms, but of course, the weight in the back is then distributed too poorly to wear it. I can't say "I wish I had saved for a better helm" because I'd still be saving, lol. But I am working on modifying it to closer resemble something historical. Both the face opening and the hinge.
very interesting video. a point that comes to my mind when thinking about a lot of this differences between modern replicas and original elmets is that most likely original bascinets were made specifically for one person, so for example the oculars could be very narrow because they were alligned to the wearer's eyes, while modern replicas have to fit with the same shape a lot of different people. Also, speaking about jousting armor vs war armor: when you're jousting you're 90% sure that you'll get hit and most likely you know where and what kinda weapon is gonna hit you, so you get ready for that; in war you always hope not to get hit or be able to parry, and not knowing the weapon and the place of the hit you rely mostly on your ability to prevent it by being able to see and move quickly. Again, very interesting topic and- as always- very well presented.
why thank you i always thought it would be obvious after all if you are to burdened by your equipment to fight effectively your chances of being killed are going to go up significantly its simple common sense
Great attention to detail, this kind of thing is really important to offset all the inaccuracies in film/tv etc and the gradual dumbing of society in general.
I think that when you state that the bascinets themselves are not responsible for protecting the chin or the forwards part of the jaw as it withdraws back that some still do. For example the bascinet you use to illustrate the 'square-ish' face opening extends down to that area, but important to note is that the aventail suspension knobs (whatever their actual term is) are in the same position as they would be in the bascinet you previously described. As such this plate would not be visible with aventail on. Also, I remember it being sort of possible to 'lock' a klapvizier into the down position to engaging some sort of stop rib into the hinge. Nice video as always.
+Roran Hawkins At 7:26 I tried to quickly mention that some bascinets do exactly like you say ("Historical bascinets kind of close in ((as I gesture the closure near the chin)) or the side of the opening...") I think it just kinda got lost because I spent a lot more time talking about the types that cut back. I should have been more clear.
No criticism at all :P There's a limit to the amount of information you can put inside a single video as opposed to an essay etc. These are mighty informative already, as per the usual.
+Roran Hawkins Thank you for understanding :) I'm generally hit from both sides in that some say my videos aren't long and detailed enough to give the whole picture while others insist they are too long and boring so the balance is quite difficult to strike :)
While I was touring the armor factories in Northern India they all had nice samples displayed in their office, but when watching them craft the helmets and armor in person, almost everything they made was from molds. They couldn't really "break the mold" and make something different without making a new mold. I have a video of 1 factory making a basic bascinet from a cold rolled sheet. If memory serves me correctly it took them about 20 minutes from start to finish. I'll have to dig through my archives and post it some day. Their sword making was quite primitive and un-impressive.
When it comes down to it, they really have no reason to make a better product. The demand is there for the lower end stuff, and until it dries up they can comfortably keep doing what they're doing. I think we'd all like to see the bar raised on the low-end market and it's my hope that if we get the knowledge out there about how these objects should really look and function that people will drive that bar a little higher, but that may be wishful thinking :)
I agree with you and I have the same goal for Samurai Armor. To produce the most authentic and economical armor available. I will pass your videos along to some factory owners in India with hopes they might find inspiration to raise their own authenticity to find more satisfaction in their work, if not maybe more sales. In the meantime, keep up the great work. You are very much appreciated!
Hey, Ian! Great video and awesome channel! Thank you for taking time and putting these well researched and highly educational videos out there. I do have a request and a question of sorts, and I hope you could shed some light on it. In just about every armor video you've done, there is some reference to the armors of Churburg collection. I don't suppose you'd have time and will to do a little video about the collection, it's history, and historical significance of the pieces from it? I hope more people would also like to see and hear about it. Thanks!
Are you going to talk about the history of the sallet in depth later? (it's my favourite type of helmet.) Also I would just like to say that your videos are very informational and well put together. Thanks and keep up the good work.
A question about keeping the visor closed in a fight. I've done a bit of re-enactment, SCA and LARP biffoe, and when our almost certainly very poorly proportioned helmets and visors didn't get strapped down, the visors bobbled and slapped about like dead cats up a flagpole. Rubbish results ensued. So we strapped them down. Which was, as you say thoroughly inconvenient. Having a sip of water took 5 minutes, or a straw. How did they historically make the visors stay still when in the down position? Was it just a matter of having a tight hinge and close visor fit?
A tight hinge and close fit are a big part of it, but there is more to it than that. On far too many helmets to ignore, not just bascinets, but other side-pivoting visored helmets as well (like sallets) the pivots are not perfectly aligned. So if you tried to put an axle between the pivots through the inside of the helmet it wouldn't line up right. It tends to put enough force on the arms of the visor to both keep it pretty securely down or up. Some have attributed this to sloppy medieval technology, but I think they've demonstrated their ability to align holes if they wanted. The phenomenon seems too widespread (to me anyway) to attribute it to sloppy craftsmanship when the benefits are a pretty darn nice feature to have on a visored helmet.
Aaaah, that's the same asymmetrical phenomenon Toby Capwell attributed to allowing visors to be wedged open. And you reckon it helps wedge them closed too. It's such a beautifully simple solution. Very good. Thanks for the swift and informed response.
Well, you're right on the fact that bascinets did not use straps for fixing visor in the lower/locked position, however later period helmets such as bourgonets did and I believe the tradition might have originated from earlier times. Excavated examples, as I've heard, stand for like 5% of armor used. We cannot fully judge of what the armor looked like ignoring like 95% that simply rotted away. There might have been examples using this type of fixation method, although its only a theory
+Akiralisk Spring pins also existed on later helmets, but we start to play very fast and loose with history when we make assumptions that things could have existed earlier without any evidence. The whole 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is usually used to justify things that suit an individual's preference rather than what historical sources tell us is likely. Like I said in the video, the last thing I want to do in a fight is try to reach back with gauntlet clad hands, let go of my weapons and try to manipulate a fine buckle when I need to get my visor up.
+godofimagination I have often wondered about that same fact. Although many modern makers place a cross reinforce over the front of the great helm, (perhaps to make it more "Crusader"-like?), we don't really see those until sugarloafs arrive about 1275. Helms like the Pembridge, Black Prince, or RA IV.600 have the flares around the occulars, but we don't find them on the earlier helms. It's curious that it took them so long to refine the design.
+godofimagination That's true, but the reinforce accomplishes the same purpose with an extra layer of metal. It makes it harder for a blade to slide across the surface into the eye by creating a raised area around the occular opening.
Hi, Like what you do. I know it's not the topic of this video, but where do you get your equipment? Is it all custom-made to be historically accurate? I feel it's hard to find historically accurate pieces of armour of web sites, mostly because the demand is for fantasy or sport combat approach to these equipments. I guess price is also a key point here. Anyway, if you have any recommendations, thoughts or opinions on particular craftmen or website to guide me in my quest, I would appreciate. I understood you don't feel like making videos about companies and giving names, and I respect that. PS: I live in western Europe, but don't hesitate to just tell me how the market is in the US. Your method apply as well to european market and help me. Many thanks in advance. Cheers.
Hi! All of my personal armor is custom made, yes. I commissioned my pieces from Jeff Wasson here in the US ( www.wassonartistry.com ) with the exception of my bascinet which was made by Piotr Feret in Poland ( www.platener.eu ). I would highly recommend both. Most of the 'production model' companies out there do absolutely cater to the sport combat and fantasy markets like you noted. The more historical you want your armor to be, the more you're going to be funneled into going the custom route. I'm always hesitant to try and list off a bunch of reputable custom armorers because I will inevitably leave people out, but there are a number of options in Western and Central Europe depending on exactly where you are. I do fully intend to start making videos about the process of forming a living history impression very shortly though, which I hope will help the prospective 'kit builders' out there.
+Almus Quotch As you can tell by looking at any of his videos, the era he covers in his videos is (approximately) 1350-1420... So I highly doubt he ever does something about Imperial Gallic helms. And I think it's better this way; the strenght of this channel is its high level of specialization... If he would start to cover other periods, it wouldn't be as good... In my opinion.
Purchased a Lords of Battle bascinet it has none of the errors of the GDFB . If you get rid of the visor strap and liner and re -rivet the visor with larger rivets it's pretty historical for a $125 helmet !
+Ikraznek The overwhelming number of side pivoting visors (not just bascinets) have slightly mis-aligned pivots. When the visor is in the up position, the torque placed on the arms of the visor by the misalignment holds it in place pretty well. Friction will work as well, and most modern helmets do this, but it is my belief that this was not just an accident or sloppy work by medieval craftsmen, but rather an intentional way to keep the visor up (at least after the benefit was discovered).
+Knyght Errant I wished you actually showed this is the video. I found it extremely neat when I first heard about it, but is one to visualize something in your head, another thing to eaxmine and study the thing you are trying to visualize.
I've been curious about the helmet padding in bascinet reproductions. I've watched a few of your videos where you talk about the padding working to suspend the skull of the bascinet away from the head and I was wondering if that means that historically the lining would normally be fixed to the inside the helmet like the aventail. I've noticed some reproductions for combat sports that either have the lining as a separate piece that on puts on before the helmet and/or sewn to be the same shape as the helmet and just sit along the edge of the helmet skull on the inside. thanks, I enjoyed the video.
Here's a video specific to linings if you haven't seen it yet (th-cam.com/video/itO64ZBX1jU/w-d-xo.html), but to answer your question the lining was generally integral to and sewn into the helmet. Bascinets tend to use a lining that is sewn directly to the helmet. Surviving bascinets have two series of holes around the bottom edge and up and around the facial opening, the lower, more numerous and smaller holes are there to stitch the lining into the helmet with the top row of holes for attaching the verveilles and ultimately the aventail. Other styles of helmets like sallets, kettle hats etc., often use a leather band riveted to the inside of the helmet to which the liner is sewn to. The modern use of a helmet with no integral lining and just a big padded cap is more of an artifact of modern re-enactment, not how these things were commonly done historically. It's nearly impossible to achieve suspension within the helmet if the liner is not attached to the helmet itself, and that's the mechanism by which your head was primarily protected.
Thank you so much! I'll definitely do some more research in order to make a more historic lining for my helmet. The suspension definitely sounds a lot safer than the unattached lining Ive seen often in the combat sport I'm getting into.
Something you neglected; the vast majority of modern repros are rather microcephalic looking compared to originals, which have a lot more crush space on top. This is true across later helms and helmets as well.
I've thought about making a second part to this video. Visor arms and hinges are another pet peeve of mine. The real ones are very gracile compared to the overbuilt, fat modern ones that usually have the wrong number of knuckles. If I ever decide to make videos again, I'll have to address the crush space as well.
@@KnyghtErrant Yes, those are also excellent points. The biggest problem with helmet skull proportions seems to be the modern unconscious bias that assumes the helmet skull should be equidistant from the wearer's skull. Not many real helmets are like that, even the Greek ones, which often have some extra space in the top. I keep thinking of doing a short video on how 16th c. helmets with high combs, looked at head-on, are actually very well shaped to deflect pole weapon strikes, since when people are actually in formation halbardiers are limited by those around them to strikes that are very close to vertical. Otherwise, you risk entanglement! In single combat, this is less of a problem. ;-)
How hard is it to raise the visor on a historical Bascinet? If you where to look down would your visor swing away from the helmet? How concerned would you be about your opponent being able to open your visor?
+ClockworkHobo It's hard to say as so few bascinets survive with their original visors (a lot of complete bascinets in museums are really mis-matched). Pivots also loosen up over time. When made new they could made pretty tight and tightened over their working life, so I don't think it would have been a tremendous problem. If someone's in a position that they can grab and lift your visor by hand, you've probably already lost the fight.
+ClockworkHobo I read in a watchmaking book that even the most tightly fit pins can be pivoted, so long as they weren't pushed into a hole that gets deformed by their presence. So especially if you have the leverage of the entire visor it shouldn't be problematic, at least it makes no sense to me that a blacksmith in the middle ages would really make a contraption to force a rivot into a hole, when the solution at hand is to enlarge the hole ever so slightly.
Another well researched, informative, well presented piece. You are a gentleman sir. I have a question which isn't related to this vid but your Kettle Helm piece. On the cover pic you're wearing a maille/mail collar with what looks to be a leather strip,. This could be the KH chin strap or to strengthen the maille. I have a maille/mail coif recently purchased but now realise that the hooded part is just extra weight as the KH doesn't need maile it's redundant. It means modification and I will have to cut the hooded piece off. Could you point me in the right direction or give me close ups of the collar with your KH as it looks perfect.I'm a 14thC re enactor first half of Hundred Years' War.Once again great vids.
+Sean Brindley The leather strip at the top of the mail collar is just an leather edging for the collar itself (th-cam.com/video/MrFwI4eFhf0/w-d-xo.htmlm5s) There is also a chin strap hanging down from the sides of my kettle hat in that image, but the strap is not fastened. The link I put in here is my 'throat' defense video, and you see the collar pretty clearly there. Let me know if that helps.
Could it be that the vervelles aren't all the way up the bassinet on modern sport combat helmets because of the square face opening? You mentioned that it projects out from the face, if the vervelles went all the way up, the aventail would block the face/vision. And since they don't necessarily need the aventail due to how they conduct their combat they decided to just end the vervelles early. Just trying to explain why they did it.
+JopezStags I think it's a biproduct of what you're describing. The incorrect facial opening would make it very difficult to fit a proper aventail, which would in turn make it difficult to get the visor to fit correctly without the mail getting in the way. I also think they realized the aventail is completely nonfunctional around the face for their purposes. Because of the rules of the game, they can't fight with no visor, and visors have to be locked down, so there's no need for secondary facial protection via the aventail, so they decided to not worry about it. The only problem I have is that a lot of people see these types of helmets without an understanding of how a real aventail works and it perpetuates a re-enactorism because people copy their design instead of going to the originals first.
Why did they make helmets conform to the shape of the head so often? Was it comfort? Did it actually afford more protection? Artistry? Also, the chain design seems pretty simple, but how is it less safe? Does it cause the visor to clatter around?
+No Free Will Helmets MUST conform to the shape of your head to provide protection. If they're loose they'll swing and potentially amplify the impact force. Instead of being hit by a sword you'd be hit by your own helmet. This actually applies to any kind of helmet. As a former HSE officer I'll explain this way: People in the modern world who've worn construction hats often make the mistake of thinking that a helmet doesn't need to conform to your head because the hat doesn't, but what you're actually wearing in the case of a construction hat is the framework of high-tensile-strength straps hugging your head. The hardened hat portion is actually a separate elevated shield placed away from your skull. That's why it's important to always always always adjust the strapwork! Ian might have created a misconception by making the contrast with SCA padded helmets. The padding in SCA helmets is intended to distribute impact force over a wider area, much like the padding in motorcycle helmets. What should be understood here is that proper SCA helmets must conform to the wearer''s head. The outer shape will not conform due to the padding and other safety features, but the helmet + padding should conform and hug your head when you wear it. Otherwise the helmet will not function. In short, the part of the helmet you wear must conform as close as possible to your head to provide protection. In historical combat helmets this would be the helmet itself. In construction hats this would be the strapworks, and in SCA helmets - like motorcycle helmets - you're actually wearing the padding.
+No Free Will One advantage of having a helmet that conforms to the shape of the head well is that the helmet exerts less force onto the head when it is struck. This is because more of the helmet directly touches the head and therefore distributes the energy of a blow more evenly.
The only methods I talked about in the video for modernly securing a bascinet visor are a leather strap and spring pins. If you're talking about the chains that you see on my personal visor, those are just there so that you don't lose the pins that hold the visor *on* they don't do anything to keep the visor down. The chains on my visor are used on originals.
I bought this really cheap close helm. (For $70, I got the helmet, a breastplate, and backplate.) The cuirass is okay, but the helmet utterly fails. The ocular sits over the middle of my forehead. I doubt it would fit anyone.
I have a question, maybe a stupid one, but bear with me. Is it possible that those errors could exist in lower end helmets intended for footsoldiers, which would make the errors actually historical?
Not the types of errors we see in modern armor reproductions. A lot of the 'errors' observed in modern armors are the result of optimization for distinctly modern activities or a lack of understanding of historical shape, function and aesthetic (sometimes a combination of those things). For example, the massively oversized modern bascinets, usually overly rounded and missing the subtlety of shape to them are the result of the need for overbuilt helmets with copious amounts of padding made exclusively for modern full contact combat sports. They are an artifact of that modern activity, not a reflection of lower end armors in history. 'Low quality' armors in the historical sense are a very different thing than what we think of as 'low quality' in a modern reproduction. Low quality today usually translates to a missed attempt to imitate a high end object, not a purpose-built low-end object which still requires a skilled craftsmen to produce. This is a video topic I have near the top of my priority list because I think it's a very important concept to get across.
I miss this guy’s videos. Probably the most informative I’ve found on TH-cam.
One other critical thing about the difference between armour for warfare and armour for tournaments: in a tournament, you know you're going to get into a fight.
In warfare, there are a lot of circumstances where you *might* get into a fight today. So you wear armour, perhaps partial armour, but you still need to be able to function. Say you're riding around as part of a small group harassing some of the other side's peasants. Most days you do that, there won't be a fight. But once a week or whatever, you'll run into some of their knights out to do the same.
Even when the enemy are camped just on the other side of the river, and you know there will be a fight today, you're preparing to wear armour for most of the day. You'll want to be protected, but you'll also spend a lot of time just standing around in it.
In a tournament, by contrast, you know (roughly) when you're going to be fighting. As a result, you can pile on the extra pieces of protection you won't wear day to day on campaign. Even compared to armouring up for an imminent battle, you can still have more kit, because you're gearing up in safety, for a fight that's going to happen right now, and don't need to be able to e.g. eat lunch if the morning ends up just being some skirmishing.
+1 This is a massively important point that seems to fly completely over many people's heads.
This is why they had a light cavalry and archers riding on a marsh you know
another point, that is already somewhat between the lines of what you said; in a tournament you probably know quite well which weapon the enemy has at hand and wear armour that properly counters this very weapon, same as your opponent does. There are various examples of tournament armour designed especially for lance breaking, others for fencing competitions ... the variaty of different helmets for late medieval/renaissance tournaments is huge. And the later in time we are, the more rules are applied to tournaments as it became more and more of a show-off event for noble men and soldiers of fortune (~14th century onwards) instead of warfair training for the troops (9th/10th century) which again, made it much easier to prepare for a very specific tournament fight than to prepare for warfair where you might break lances with enemies on first charge in a rain of arrows and then it goes against clubs, pikes and daggers in the mud ... much more chaotic than tournament, much more need for mobility and quick adaption.
During the 7th minute, it presents that a historical Bascinet requires a mustache.
+ศานต์ไท หุ่นพยนต์ Have you ever seen an English effigy without one?? :) I'm just kidding of course, but it certainly completes 'the look.'
Knyght Errant looks like the black prince
@@l.cressey6806 Knyght Errant needs a great helm to complete the black prince look.
I just love this guy...so polite...well spoken and very informative....
I'm glad that you mention compromises for sport combat and the such, my close helm has larger oculars and more breaths than historical ones, but it makes using it a lot better for someone who doesn't have to worry about a sharp blade coming into my visor
Again; this is gold. Very important information. Far more ppl should see this.
+Blank- blade Thanks man! Spread the word! ;)
Knyght Errant Will do my best on FB tomorrow :D
+Knyght Errant Duly Shared, Noble Sir!
Thank you for taking time Mr. Errant, I appreciate your videos regarding medieval armours and the detailed explanation you provide.
It helps me alot, though not as an reenactor/armourer but as an 3D artist focused on recreating medieval times - we have big problems figuring out those sophisticated shapes too, especialy with armets and other 16th century armours..
This guy is the king of youtube
Your beard gets better with each video! Have you ever wished that you were born as a nobleman during the time periods that your replicas embody? I suspect you would have made an excellent Knight or something of higher class, so long as you'd be willing to dress yourself in the best armor to denote your wealth and serve or protect your realm. Also, if you were a nobleman on your armored steed, what weapon(s) would you preferably/personally choose to carry with you?
If you're ever able to get your hands on a true antique piece from the era and talk to its history, you'll add a new patron to help support your exquisite objective knowledge sharing. Your editing is impeccable. Maybe do a video of horse armor that warhorses would have adorned, if that really was a thing? I wouldn't expect you to have any on hand (hehe), but your editing skills would allow you to show examples and I'd find that very valuable (haven't seen any videos from anyone about that), though your demographic may not be interested. I watch these for the history and am in no way interesting in reenactment.
My nephew walked in around 6:45 and saw the non-historical versus historical face shape and exclaimed and I quote "I knew all knights had to have mustaches!"
Love you man ! I have modified a GDFM houndskull Bascinet based on your descriptions . Opened the facial at the bottom to the diameter of the helmet , added the necessary extra vervelles . It was necessary to bend the facial opening to allow clearance for the top vervelles . Other than skull shape it looks pretty historical now . Thanks for for being there .
I am very much inclined to agree with you, A lot of helmets have errors, some for the good reason of safety but most due to the simplified design for mass production. Even my own Bascinet which I consider to be of a very high quality, isn't a perfect recreation, after all it's purpose isn't for war, it's a Tournament helmet made to allow people to fight safely for sport rather than conflict. Really enjoyed this episode, look forward to future videos along this line.
+IGCommissarJake Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I agree with what you've said. I think where the problem arises is when people start to take this stuff too personally, but as you said, our modern reproductions are not meant for real medieval warfare, so modern concessions aren't a statement on the value of the individual wearing it, even though some people tend to take it that way.
Gotta love that disclaimer at the beginning. :D
Great video, as always!
Thanks. In this 're-enactor' world, a lot of people go out of their way to feel like people are telling them they're not doing it 'right.' Hence the disclaimer :) Some people take great offense to factual historical information if it doesn't align with the stuff they bought, heh...
I fight in the SCA, and I had to go and pull out my bascinet to take a look about halfway through the video. I really like how you describe the features of a historical helmet, but then acknowledge why modern ones differ. Your point about the abuse that a helmet takes in SCA fighting is spot on. Thanks for taking the time to help educate us!
Another great video. Love how you cover the small bits etc without it even seeming slightly boring. Hats off to you!
i really love this series. amazing work! thank you very much!
To further support the impetus of this video, I own the GDFB klappvisier, and whenever the lining is properly fitted to my head, the helm leans forward, creating the slanted face opening that's built into better helms, but of course, the weight in the back is then distributed too poorly to wear it. I can't say "I wish I had saved for a better helm" because I'd still be saving, lol. But I am working on modifying it to closer resemble something historical. Both the face opening and the hinge.
very interesting video. a point that comes to my mind when thinking about a lot of this differences between modern replicas and original elmets is that most likely original bascinets were made specifically for one person, so for example the oculars could be very narrow because they were alligned to the wearer's eyes, while modern replicas have to fit with the same shape a lot of different people. Also, speaking about jousting armor vs war armor: when you're jousting you're 90% sure that you'll get hit and most likely you know where and what kinda weapon is gonna hit you, so you get ready for that; in war you always hope not to get hit or be able to parry, and not knowing the weapon and the place of the hit you rely mostly on your ability to prevent it by being able to see and move quickly. Again, very interesting topic and- as always- very well presented.
very true be cause in warfare the ability to fight is in fact THE SAFETY FEATURE
Exactly. That point is lost on a lot of people :)
why thank you i always thought it would be obvious after all if you are to burdened by your equipment to fight effectively your chances of being killed are going to go up significantly its simple common sense
ps i only just found your Chanel yesterday and i think you do a fantastic job keep it up
Thank you sir, I'm glad you'r enjoying it!
Great attention to detail, this kind of thing is really important to offset all the inaccuracies in film/tv etc and the gradual dumbing of society in general.
I think that when you state that the bascinets themselves are not responsible for protecting the chin or the forwards part of the jaw as it withdraws back that some still do. For example the bascinet you use to illustrate the 'square-ish' face opening extends down to that area, but important to note is that the aventail suspension knobs (whatever their actual term is) are in the same position as they would be in the bascinet you previously described. As such this plate would not be visible with aventail on.
Also, I remember it being sort of possible to 'lock' a klapvizier into the down position to engaging some sort of stop rib into the hinge.
Nice video as always.
+Roran Hawkins At 7:26 I tried to quickly mention that some bascinets do exactly like you say ("Historical bascinets kind of close in ((as I gesture the closure near the chin)) or the side of the opening...") I think it just kinda got lost because I spent a lot more time talking about the types that cut back. I should have been more clear.
No criticism at all :P There's a limit to the amount of information you can put inside a single video as opposed to an essay etc. These are mighty informative already, as per the usual.
+Roran Hawkins Thank you for understanding :) I'm generally hit from both sides in that some say my videos aren't long and detailed enough to give the whole picture while others insist they are too long and boring so the balance is quite difficult to strike :)
Well illustrated and explained examples. You have a treasure trove of knowledge. Thank you for sharing it with us all!
While I was touring the armor factories in Northern India they all had nice samples displayed in their office, but when watching them craft the helmets and armor in person, almost everything they made was from molds. They couldn't really "break the mold" and make something different without making a new mold.
I have a video of 1 factory making a basic bascinet from a cold rolled sheet. If memory serves me correctly it took them about 20 minutes from start to finish. I'll have to dig through my archives and post it some day.
Their sword making was quite primitive and un-impressive.
When it comes down to it, they really have no reason to make a better product. The demand is there for the lower end stuff, and until it dries up they can comfortably keep doing what they're doing. I think we'd all like to see the bar raised on the low-end market and it's my hope that if we get the knowledge out there about how these objects should really look and function that people will drive that bar a little higher, but that may be wishful thinking :)
I agree with you and I have the same goal for Samurai Armor. To produce the most authentic and economical armor available.
I will pass your videos along to some factory owners in India with hopes they might find inspiration to raise their own authenticity to find more satisfaction in their work, if not maybe more sales.
In the meantime, keep up the great work. You are very much appreciated!
Hey, Ian! Great video and awesome channel! Thank you for taking time and putting these well researched and highly educational videos out there.
I do have a request and a question of sorts, and I hope you could shed some light on it. In just about every armor video you've done, there is some reference to the armors of Churburg collection. I don't suppose you'd have time and will to do a little video about the collection, it's history, and historical significance of the pieces from it? I hope more people would also like to see and hear about it. Thanks!
Best video I have watched in a long time.
Next time on Common Modern Reproduction Errors: The Moustache.
Are you going to talk about the history of the sallet in depth later? (it's my favourite type of helmet.) Also I would just like to say that your videos are very informational and well put together. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Cool video! Any plans to make a video on the sallet?
+Tyler Pulkkinen There might be a sallet sitting just off camera left waiting to get its own video :)
+Knyght Errant
Hope it has a matching bevor - sallets without it are IMHO incomplete.
Great insight on the construction and logic of the bascinet.
besides the excellent info...watching the helm videos in order, you can watch Ian's hair grow!
A question about keeping the visor closed in a fight. I've done a bit of re-enactment, SCA and LARP biffoe, and when our almost certainly very poorly proportioned helmets and visors didn't get strapped down, the visors bobbled and slapped about like dead cats up a flagpole. Rubbish results ensued. So we strapped them down. Which was, as you say thoroughly inconvenient. Having a sip of water took 5 minutes, or a straw. How did they historically make the visors stay still when in the down position? Was it just a matter of having a tight hinge and close visor fit?
A tight hinge and close fit are a big part of it, but there is more to it than that. On far too many helmets to ignore, not just bascinets, but other side-pivoting visored helmets as well (like sallets) the pivots are not perfectly aligned. So if you tried to put an axle between the pivots through the inside of the helmet it wouldn't line up right. It tends to put enough force on the arms of the visor to both keep it pretty securely down or up. Some have attributed this to sloppy medieval technology, but I think they've demonstrated their ability to align holes if they wanted. The phenomenon seems too widespread (to me anyway) to attribute it to sloppy craftsmanship when the benefits are a pretty darn nice feature to have on a visored helmet.
Aaaah, that's the same asymmetrical phenomenon Toby Capwell attributed to allowing visors to be wedged open. And you reckon it helps wedge them closed too. It's such a beautifully simple solution. Very good. Thanks for the swift and informed response.
Well, you're right on the fact that bascinets did not use straps for fixing visor in the lower/locked position, however later period helmets such as bourgonets did and I believe the tradition might have originated from earlier times. Excavated examples, as I've heard, stand for like 5% of armor used. We cannot fully judge of what the armor looked like ignoring like 95% that simply rotted away. There might have been examples using this type of fixation method, although its only a theory
+Akiralisk Spring pins also existed on later helmets, but we start to play very fast and loose with history when we make assumptions that things could have existed earlier without any evidence. The whole 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is usually used to justify things that suit an individual's preference rather than what historical sources tell us is likely. Like I said in the video, the last thing I want to do in a fight is try to reach back with gauntlet clad hands, let go of my weapons and try to manipulate a fine buckle when I need to get my visor up.
Really like the info you provided.
The lack of raised sights was always something I was concerned with on early great helms like the bolzano and madeln. The pembridge fixed the issue.
+godofimagination I have often wondered about that same fact. Although many modern makers place a cross reinforce over the front of the great helm, (perhaps to make it more "Crusader"-like?), we don't really see those until sugarloafs arrive about 1275. Helms like the Pembridge, Black Prince, or RA IV.600 have the flares around the occulars, but we don't find them on the earlier helms. It's curious that it took them so long to refine the design.
+godofimagination As we always said in the military, most safety changes, warnings and cautions are written in blood. :)
+Mart Shearer The weird thing is, cross reinforcements are older than the helmets I just mentioned.
+godofimagination That's true, but the reinforce accomplishes the same purpose with an extra layer of metal. It makes it harder for a blade to slide across the surface into the eye by creating a raised area around the occular opening.
Which is what makes me wonder why they didn't keep using it.
Hi,
Like what you do. I know it's not the topic of this video, but where do you get your equipment? Is it all custom-made to be historically accurate? I feel it's hard to find historically accurate pieces of armour of web sites, mostly because the demand is for fantasy or sport combat approach to these equipments. I guess price is also a key point here. Anyway, if you have any recommendations, thoughts or opinions on particular craftmen or website to guide me in my quest, I would appreciate. I understood you don't feel like making videos about companies and giving names, and I respect that.
PS: I live in western Europe, but don't hesitate to just tell me how the market is in the US. Your method apply as well to european market and help me. Many thanks in advance. Cheers.
Hi! All of my personal armor is custom made, yes. I commissioned my pieces from Jeff Wasson here in the US ( www.wassonartistry.com ) with the exception of my bascinet which was made by Piotr Feret in Poland ( www.platener.eu ). I would highly recommend both. Most of the 'production model' companies out there do absolutely cater to the sport combat and fantasy markets like you noted. The more historical you want your armor to be, the more you're going to be funneled into going the custom route. I'm always hesitant to try and list off a bunch of reputable custom armorers because I will inevitably leave people out, but there are a number of options in Western and Central Europe depending on exactly where you are. I do fully intend to start making videos about the process of forming a living history impression very shortly though, which I hope will help the prospective 'kit builders' out there.
Will you be covering any ancient world armours or helmets? I'd love a video on Imperial Gallic helmets.
+Almus Quotch As you can tell by looking at any of his videos, the era he covers in his videos is (approximately) 1350-1420... So I highly doubt he ever does something about Imperial Gallic helms. And I think it's better this way; the strenght of this channel is its high level of specialization... If he would start to cover other periods, it wouldn't be as good... In my opinion.
I noticed in a fifteenth century manuscript that they had cloth gloves in their gauntlets rather than leather ones, reckon it's advantageous?
Purchased a Lords of Battle bascinet it has none of the errors of the GDFB . If you get rid of the visor strap and liner and re -rivet the visor with larger rivets it's pretty historical for a $125 helmet !
Great looking Bascinet .. I would be interested to know the composition (If its spring steel) and the maker..
Thank you. Mine is 0.3% carbon steel, hardened to about 30 HRC. Made by Piotr Feret (www.platener.eu)
"The easiest way to get into your brain is your eyeball." - Hollywood knows this well...
how well does the visor stay up in historical examples and how did they do it? just friction?
+Ikraznek The overwhelming number of side pivoting visors (not just bascinets) have slightly mis-aligned pivots. When the visor is in the up position, the torque placed on the arms of the visor by the misalignment holds it in place pretty well. Friction will work as well, and most modern helmets do this, but it is my belief that this was not just an accident or sloppy work by medieval craftsmen, but rather an intentional way to keep the visor up (at least after the benefit was discovered).
+Knyght Errant I wished you actually showed this is the video. I found it extremely neat when I first heard about it, but is one to visualize something in your head, another thing to eaxmine and study the thing you are trying to visualize.
Philip Dyer I don't have an example to show you.
+Philip Dyer th-cam.com/video/IHqo4syIqD8/w-d-xo.htmlm35s
I've been curious about the helmet padding in bascinet reproductions. I've watched a few of your videos where you talk about the padding working to suspend the skull of the bascinet away from the head and I was wondering if that means that historically the lining would normally be fixed to the inside the helmet like the aventail. I've noticed some reproductions for combat sports that either have the lining as a separate piece that on puts on before the helmet and/or sewn to be the same shape as the helmet and just sit along the edge of the helmet skull on the inside. thanks, I enjoyed the video.
Here's a video specific to linings if you haven't seen it yet (th-cam.com/video/itO64ZBX1jU/w-d-xo.html), but to answer your question the lining was generally integral to and sewn into the helmet. Bascinets tend to use a lining that is sewn directly to the helmet. Surviving bascinets have two series of holes around the bottom edge and up and around the facial opening, the lower, more numerous and smaller holes are there to stitch the lining into the helmet with the top row of holes for attaching the verveilles and ultimately the aventail. Other styles of helmets like sallets, kettle hats etc., often use a leather band riveted to the inside of the helmet to which the liner is sewn to. The modern use of a helmet with no integral lining and just a big padded cap is more of an artifact of modern re-enactment, not how these things were commonly done historically. It's nearly impossible to achieve suspension within the helmet if the liner is not attached to the helmet itself, and that's the mechanism by which your head was primarily protected.
Thank you so much! I'll definitely do some more research in order to make a more historic lining for my helmet. The suspension definitely sounds a lot safer than the unattached lining Ive seen often in the combat sport I'm getting into.
Something you neglected; the vast majority of modern repros are rather microcephalic looking compared to originals, which have a lot more crush space on top. This is true across later helms and helmets as well.
I've thought about making a second part to this video. Visor arms and hinges are another pet peeve of mine. The real ones are very gracile compared to the overbuilt, fat modern ones that usually have the wrong number of knuckles. If I ever decide to make videos again, I'll have to address the crush space as well.
@@KnyghtErrant Yes, those are also excellent points. The biggest problem with helmet skull proportions seems to be the modern unconscious bias that assumes the helmet skull should be equidistant from the wearer's skull. Not many real helmets are like that, even the Greek ones, which often have some extra space in the top. I keep thinking of doing a short video on how 16th c. helmets with high combs, looked at head-on, are actually very well shaped to deflect pole weapon strikes, since when people are actually in formation halbardiers are limited by those around them to strikes that are very close to vertical. Otherwise, you risk entanglement! In single combat, this is less of a problem. ;-)
How hard is it to raise the visor on a historical Bascinet? If you where to look down would your visor swing away from the helmet? How concerned would you be about your opponent being able to open your visor?
+ClockworkHobo It's hard to say as so few bascinets survive with their original visors (a lot of complete bascinets in museums are really mis-matched). Pivots also loosen up over time. When made new they could made pretty tight and tightened over their working life, so I don't think it would have been a tremendous problem. If someone's in a position that they can grab and lift your visor by hand, you've probably already lost the fight.
Knyght Errant
Thanks for the info. You make great vids, can't wait for the next one.
+ClockworkHobo I read in a watchmaking book that even the most tightly fit pins can be pivoted, so long as they weren't pushed into a hole that gets deformed by their presence. So especially if you have the leverage of the entire visor it shouldn't be problematic, at least it makes no sense to me that a blacksmith in the middle ages would really make a contraption to force a rivot into a hole, when the solution at hand is to enlarge the hole ever so slightly.
I always get a chuckle out of the bascinet, because the conical shape at the top and back of the head just looks goofy to me.
Great video, I can't understand the reasoning for the 2 dislikes while I was watching this.
+Nope Probably couple of guys who bought cheap helmets, thinking they looked authentic, and now are butt-hurt;)
how is the uniform finish on the armour done?
where did you get your bascinet? I've been looking for a good one like yours for a while
The armorer's name is Piotr Feret, here's his website - www.platener.eu
Nice Sicilian style triskele!
Another well researched, informative, well presented piece. You are a gentleman sir.
I have a question which isn't related to this vid but your Kettle Helm piece. On the cover pic you're wearing a maille/mail collar with what looks to be a leather strip,. This could be the KH chin strap or to strengthen the maille. I have a maille/mail coif recently purchased but now realise that the hooded part is just extra weight as the KH doesn't need maile it's redundant. It means modification and I will have to cut the hooded piece off. Could you point me in the right direction or give me close ups of the collar with your KH as it looks perfect.I'm a 14thC re enactor first half of Hundred Years' War.Once again great vids.
+Sean Brindley The leather strip at the top of the mail collar is just an leather edging for the collar itself (th-cam.com/video/MrFwI4eFhf0/w-d-xo.htmlm5s) There is also a chin strap hanging down from the sides of my kettle hat in that image, but the strap is not fastened. The link I put in here is my 'throat' defense video, and you see the collar pretty clearly there. Let me know if that helps.
So, should you say it like bascinet or basciney? I'm quite confused now...
Could it be that the vervelles aren't all the way up the bassinet on modern sport combat helmets because of the square face opening? You mentioned that it projects out from the face, if the vervelles went all the way up, the aventail would block the face/vision. And since they don't necessarily need the aventail due to how they conduct their combat they decided to just end the vervelles early. Just trying to explain why they did it.
+JopezStags I think it's a biproduct of what you're describing. The incorrect facial opening would make it very difficult to fit a proper aventail, which would in turn make it difficult to get the visor to fit correctly without the mail getting in the way. I also think they realized the aventail is completely nonfunctional around the face for their purposes. Because of the rules of the game, they can't fight with no visor, and visors have to be locked down, so there's no need for secondary facial protection via the aventail, so they decided to not worry about it. The only problem I have is that a lot of people see these types of helmets without an understanding of how a real aventail works and it perpetuates a re-enactorism because people copy their design instead of going to the originals first.
Why did they make helmets conform to the shape of the head so often? Was it comfort? Did it actually afford more protection? Artistry?
Also, the chain design seems pretty simple, but how is it less safe? Does it cause the visor to clatter around?
+No Free Will Helmets MUST conform to the shape of your head to provide protection. If they're loose they'll swing and potentially amplify the impact force. Instead of being hit by a sword you'd be hit by your own helmet. This actually applies to any kind of helmet. As a former HSE officer I'll explain this way: People in the modern world who've worn construction hats often make the mistake of thinking that a helmet doesn't need to conform to your head because the hat doesn't, but what you're actually wearing in the case of a construction hat is the framework of high-tensile-strength straps hugging your head. The hardened hat portion is actually a separate elevated shield placed away from your skull. That's why it's important to always always always adjust the strapwork!
Ian might have created a misconception by making the contrast with SCA padded helmets. The padding in SCA helmets is intended to distribute impact force over a wider area, much like the padding in motorcycle helmets. What should be understood here is that proper SCA helmets must conform to the wearer''s head. The outer shape will not conform due to the padding and other safety features, but the helmet + padding should conform and hug your head when you wear it. Otherwise the helmet will not function.
In short, the part of the helmet you wear must conform as close as possible to your head to provide protection. In historical combat helmets this would be the helmet itself. In construction hats this would be the strapworks, and in SCA helmets - like motorcycle helmets - you're actually wearing the padding.
+No Free Will One advantage of having a helmet that conforms to the shape of the head well is that the helmet exerts less force onto the head when it is struck. This is because more of the helmet directly touches the head and therefore distributes the energy of a blow more evenly.
+No Free Will What do you mean by the 'chain design' ?
Knyght Errant
Oh, I was referring to 'the use of a chain to secure the visor'.
The only methods I talked about in the video for modernly securing a bascinet visor are a leather strap and spring pins. If you're talking about the chains that you see on my personal visor, those are just there so that you don't lose the pins that hold the visor *on* they don't do anything to keep the visor down. The chains on my visor are used on originals.
Hi, you said what are not the good features to close a visor but you did not say which features help to keep it close
+Mêlées de béhourd Other than tight pivots, there were no features designed to keep the visor down.
i might explain why the great helmet was so popular finally
Same i oove medieval history
Love
+Kieron Gaming You don't have to correct him.
+Corbin and me haha, it is the same profile, he is just correcting his own mistake.
I bought this really cheap close helm. (For $70, I got the helmet, a breastplate, and backplate.) The cuirass is okay, but the helmet utterly fails. The ocular sits over the middle of my forehead. I doubt it would fit anyone.
Mustaches are required for adequete protection
The real difference is that historical bascinets come with a mustache.
Great video (im what, three years late to the party?) I hunger for more information on klappvisors
I have a question, maybe a stupid one, but bear with me. Is it possible that those errors could exist in lower end helmets intended for footsoldiers, which would make the errors actually historical?
Not the types of errors we see in modern armor reproductions. A lot of the 'errors' observed in modern armors are the result of optimization for distinctly modern activities or a lack of understanding of historical shape, function and aesthetic (sometimes a combination of those things). For example, the massively oversized modern bascinets, usually overly rounded and missing the subtlety of shape to them are the result of the need for overbuilt helmets with copious amounts of padding made exclusively for modern full contact combat sports. They are an artifact of that modern activity, not a reflection of lower end armors in history. 'Low quality' armors in the historical sense are a very different thing than what we think of as 'low quality' in a modern reproduction. Low quality today usually translates to a missed attempt to imitate a high end object, not a purpose-built low-end object which still requires a skilled craftsmen to produce. This is a video topic I have near the top of my priority list because I think it's a very important concept to get across.
Thank you for the reply! Can't wait for the video.
neck scratching 13:26