13:10 - BINGO. This is what I have learned from Sweetspot, in an indoor trainer environment; I can hold it longer than I thought and that it is trainable. On the road, I would just look forward to the next relief, rather than pressing it, so I never really knew that I could punch through that mental wall.
@@blue0eyes0knight just all the adaptions that comes with high volume makes it feel much harder to reach breaking point especially when you’re fresh after a day off.
i watched Dylan Johnson's video on polarised vs sweet spot and the evidence. It seems polarised comes across as better even when time is equated which seems really odd to me. With time equated how can going slower be greater than going faster? more work is being done in the same amount of time in sweet spot when compared with polarised. The only factor i see that could account for this discrepancy is the higher degree of fatigue accumulation with sweet spot, which makes sense if you are pro as you couldn't do 25-35 hours of sweet spot but if you only have 6-8 hours to train pw and find you can fully recover no problems then how could polarised be superior?
You're definitely right, polarized is usually only beneficial for folks who have a TON of time to train. We’re focused on finding the best way to make people faster and using *data to guide our approach. The data we’ve seen shows that polarized isn’t more effective at making people faster, particularly when they have limited time to train. :)
@@TrainerRoad Hi. I have been trying to understand the science behind training also. I'm confused by your findings. This contradicts all of the evidence of decades of research by Stephen Seiler who discovered most elite athletes train with a polarised method? He also found the polarised method is scaleable and evidence shows it works down to 5 or 6 hours of training volume per week. What data are you using? How have you come to different conclusions! Many Thanks. Daz.
Cuz you dont. If that was conceivable a good idea you dont think someone wouldve figured it out by trying to do something like 3 to 5 sweet spot sessions a week totaling up to 150-250 intensity days withing a calender year. Unsustainable. Not only Unsustainable but intensity is only a part of the equation. You cannot say 0+1=2 becuz we need that other 1 too which is the long endurance riding that facilitates mitochondrial and further capillary density along with making you less reliant on carbohydrates and fatiguing the slow twitch fibers which by default are tough as hell to fatigue and make further adaptions so that when ur riding at your threshold you dont suddenly bonk or get over whelmed by the pain caused by relying on energy systems that cannot operate past lets say 40 minutes. It could be 4 minutes or 4 hours.
Are sweet spot workouts recommended all year round? I’ve transitioned into my base period as winter approaches- leg strength training 2-3x a week( for my intensity) while maintaining aerobic endurance with z1-z2 rides. Should sweet spot also be implemented? Or am I at too risk of overtraining because of the shock from the introduction of strength training(especially considering how taxing it is to the muscles )? Thanks
The good thing about Plan Builder is that it takes out that guessing for you! ;) Overtraining is really difficult to reach, what a lot of athletes perceive as overtraining is more a lack of recovery/deficit in nutrition.
I don’t think they answered your question, and plan builder, as great as it is, doesn’t show us how and where to incorporate strength training into our routine. I have this same question as well and am subscribing to Dylan Johnson’s philosophy: in the off-season, your strength sessions will count as your “intensity,” while on-the-bike training will be done at an endurance pace. I really wish Trainer Road would add strength training routines into the plans, that I way I’d know how much training to do and when to do it.
I want to complete and get a belt buckle in Leadville 100 or just complete the DK 200. I was thinking I should focus my FTP for 3 Hours rather than 1 Hour. Does that mean sweet spot should be 85% or 90% of that 3 hour number and with 40min or even 60min intervals? I would hate to be really fit for 1-3 hours and completely run out of gas for these ultra-endurance events. Or should I just stay in zone 2 and just keep extending longer and longer? Thanks
Hey! This is a good question to submit to the team at trainerroad.com/podcast, as this topic could likely benefit a lot of our athletes training for longer events! In the meantime, more info here: www.trainerroad.com/blog/how-to-train-for-dirty-kanza/
I love Nate's expression when Chad brings up drinking associated term and btoh Jonathan and Amber start laughing: "wait, I missed that, is that an inside joke?"
3x20min @c.93pc of FTP wipes me out the next day. The first interval is easy. The second is ok. The third one huuuurts. My HR goes through the roof even if it doesn't feel that hard most of the time.
So your training plans as given are a guide? If you press yourself beyond the training plan and don't go backwards then your MED has gone up? ie: I use the recommended plan but on the easier days I ride outside, and of course I push harder than the plan. I am lifting on the rest days or doing cross training of some kind, normally hiking up local mountains. Then the following days I can either complete the planned training or I cut it short. If I had to cut it short I have not progressed enough to push my training to that level and should throw in some extra rest? But if I can do the extra load I have adapted? I do know that going down the overtraining rabbit hole is quite easy. I did this a several months ago. I would add rides on rest days, mostly easy endurance rides. For the first couple of weeks I did well. But after a month I could not complete the training plan. I then quit the plan for two months and have since restarted the training plan.
From Chad! This ties to the idea that the MED is a moving target, and it’s also one that changes based on other layers of training. Being able to accommodate more load in the short term doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve achieved an increase in your MED because the adaptation happens down the road. So you have to look at it with a wider lens, see how changes in the short term pan out several weeks later, once the adaptive effects have taken shape (or the fatigue has overwhelmed you to a point of stagnation or even maladaptation, which is why I urge a conservative approach with less experience athletes). Hope this helps!
agreed.. i think people come here, as i do, to find out what times and power i need to do, and get that info within a few minutes, for the various levels of fitness....i.e., Cyclist A with FTP of X and w/kg of this,,,, Do this much sweet spot... Cyclist B.......X Cyclist C....X
13:10 - BINGO. This is what I have learned from Sweetspot, in an indoor trainer environment; I can hold it longer than I thought and that it is trainable. On the road, I would just look forward to the next relief, rather than pressing it, so I never really knew that I could punch through that mental wall.
You guys need to have Brendan from EVOQ on the show, would be a great guest. Very knowledgeable and a great asset to the cycling community
I agree about high volume making you feel bullet proof.
how do you mean?
@@blue0eyes0knight just all the adaptions that comes with high volume makes it feel much harder to reach breaking point especially when you’re fresh after a day off.
Great Trainerroad session to listen to. I helped me really understand what I’m doing and how helpful my time spent will be
i watched Dylan Johnson's video on polarised vs sweet spot and the evidence. It seems polarised comes across as better even when time is equated which seems really odd to me. With time equated how can going slower be greater than going faster? more work is being done in the same amount of time in sweet spot when compared with polarised. The only factor i see that could account for this discrepancy is the higher degree of fatigue accumulation with sweet spot, which makes sense if you are pro as you couldn't do 25-35 hours of sweet spot but if you only have 6-8 hours to train pw and find you can fully recover no problems then how could polarised be superior?
You're definitely right, polarized is usually only beneficial for folks who have a TON of time to train. We’re focused on finding the best way to make people faster and using *data to guide our approach. The data we’ve seen shows that polarized isn’t more effective at making people faster, particularly when they have limited time to train. :)
@@TrainerRoad Hi. I have been trying to understand the science behind training also.
I'm confused by your findings. This contradicts all of the evidence of decades of research by Stephen Seiler who discovered most elite athletes train with a polarised method? He also found the polarised method is scaleable and evidence shows it works down to 5 or 6 hours of training volume per week.
What data are you using? How have you come to different conclusions!
Many Thanks. Daz.
Cuz you dont. If that was conceivable a good idea you dont think someone wouldve figured it out by trying to do something like 3 to 5 sweet spot sessions a week totaling up to 150-250 intensity days withing a calender year. Unsustainable. Not only Unsustainable but intensity is only a part of the equation. You cannot say 0+1=2 becuz we need that other 1 too which is the long endurance riding that facilitates mitochondrial and further capillary density along with making you less reliant on carbohydrates and fatiguing the slow twitch fibers which by default are tough as hell to fatigue and make further adaptions so that when ur riding at your threshold you dont suddenly bonk or get over whelmed by the pain caused by relying on energy systems that cannot operate past lets say 40 minutes. It could be 4 minutes or 4 hours.
All this is directly applicable to distance running as well. We train the same way
Nate looks like he is about to fall asleep any second...
Are sweet spot workouts recommended all year round? I’ve transitioned into my base period as winter approaches- leg strength training 2-3x a week( for my intensity) while maintaining aerobic endurance with z1-z2 rides. Should sweet spot also be implemented? Or am I at too risk of overtraining because of the shock from the introduction of strength training(especially considering how taxing it is to the muscles )? Thanks
The good thing about Plan Builder is that it takes out that guessing for you! ;)
Overtraining is really difficult to reach, what a lot of athletes perceive as overtraining is more a lack of recovery/deficit in nutrition.
I don’t think they answered your question, and plan builder, as great as it is, doesn’t show us how and where to incorporate strength training into our routine. I have this same question as well and am subscribing to Dylan Johnson’s philosophy: in the off-season, your strength sessions will count as your “intensity,” while on-the-bike training will be done at an endurance pace. I really wish Trainer Road would add strength training routines into the plans, that I way I’d know how much training to do and when to do it.
that's why people hire real coaches@@christopherdavy2152
Nate once said he did 2 hr sweetspot sessions, how effective is that?
I want to complete and get a belt buckle in Leadville 100 or just complete the DK 200. I was thinking I should focus my FTP for 3 Hours rather than 1 Hour. Does that mean sweet spot should be 85% or 90% of that 3 hour number and with 40min or even 60min intervals? I would hate to be really fit for 1-3 hours and completely run out of gas for these ultra-endurance events. Or should I just stay in zone 2 and just keep extending longer and longer? Thanks
Hey! This is a good question to submit to the team at trainerroad.com/podcast, as this topic could likely benefit a lot of our athletes training for longer events!
In the meantime, more info here:
www.trainerroad.com/blog/how-to-train-for-dirty-kanza/
@@TrainerRoad Cheers, thank you for the rapid response. Brad
I was literally wondering about the very question - high volume sweet spot vs low volume. Makes sense low needs the VO2 boost
I love Nate's expression when Chad brings up drinking associated term and btoh Jonathan and Amber start laughing: "wait, I missed that, is that an inside joke?"
3x20min @c.93pc of FTP wipes me out the next day. The first interval is easy. The second is ok. The third one huuuurts. My HR goes through the roof even if it doesn't feel that hard most of the time.
Great points.
So your training plans as given are a guide? If you press yourself beyond the training plan and don't go backwards then your MED has gone up? ie: I use the recommended plan but on the easier days I ride outside, and of course I push harder than the plan. I am lifting on the rest days or doing cross training of some kind, normally hiking up local mountains. Then the following days I can either complete the planned training or I cut it short. If I had to cut it short I have not progressed enough to push my training to that level and should throw in some extra rest? But if I can do the extra load I have adapted? I do know that going down the overtraining rabbit hole is quite easy. I did this a several months ago. I would add rides on rest days, mostly easy endurance rides. For the first couple of weeks I did well. But after a month I could not complete the training plan. I then quit the plan for two months and have since restarted the training plan.
That's why it's good to have a coach or educate yourself to some degree on how much is too much, when to rest and what works specifically for you.
From Chad! This ties to the idea that the MED is a moving target, and it’s also one that changes based on other layers of training. Being able to accommodate more load in the short term doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve achieved an increase in your MED because the adaptation happens down the road. So you have to look at it with a wider lens, see how changes in the short term pan out several weeks later, once the adaptive effects have taken shape (or the fatigue has overwhelmed you to a point of stagnation or even maladaptation, which is why I urge a conservative approach with less experience athletes). Hope this helps!
Minimum Effective Does (or "MED"icine). Too funny. Need that. (Shot) I have seen this work, but am interested in this long term.
Why is there so much talk on TR about sweet spot, TH and vo2 workouts but hardly any about anaerobic and neuromuscular work?
Feel free to submit questions to the Ask A Cycling Coach Podcast so we can discuss those topics you're looking for! :) Trainerroad.com/podcast
I do it 4 times a week
How much? As much as one can do consistently and persistently :) ♡
Watching Amber wage a PYSOPS campaign against Nate is hugely entertaining. I am thankful I will never have to compete against her and draw her ire.
i wish they'd spit out the info instead of joking and bantering. did they person on the bottom right screen continue to live after the filming?
*checking* yes, Nate is still alive and well. ;)
@@TrainerRoad hmmm, im calling the police to report this as a suspicious poisoning.
Nate looks like death
Looks like he just did a 5x5x5'
Too much esoteric jargon IMO
agreed.. i think people come here, as i do, to find out what times and power i need to do, and get that info within a few minutes, for the various levels of fitness....i.e., Cyclist A with FTP of X and w/kg of this,,,, Do this much sweet spot... Cyclist B.......X Cyclist C....X