My vote is a split bearing cage. Look at it like this: The Maho is a perpetual content machine, blessing you with an opportunity for a bunch of rebuild videos :)
When doing pockets for inserts, we used to mill out with a parallel cutter first and just finish the top couple of mm with the taper. This gives you clearance at the bottom to ensure the insert is held tight against the angle. When drilling for the screw, we used to offset about 0.15mm towards the back, that way you are jamming the insert in to the profile and using the taper of the insert screw to pull everything in place. Good luck with the bearings.
The problem of rattling noise in spindle bearings is caused by cage instability. The company APO-Gee in Belgium has developed a solution, the Butterfly cage, which completely resolves the issue at all speeds without causing any temperature increase! The technology was initially developed for space applications bearings and is now being transferred to machine tool spindles.
@RotarySMP I had a similar sound from head of my mikron wf3. Replaced the bearings that support the bevel gears and problem solved. They were new old stock high precision Japanese bearings from ebay less than $100 each. Look forward to the tear down.... if it comes to that.
Quick tip for setting up ur tool lenght in the MAHO: U can use a piece of 80g/m² paper and move it around below the cutter coming down in Z (JOG 0,01mm). Once the paper is tight (u cant move it easily) u are 0,1mm above your refrenceplane. this way u dont kill your cutting edges of your endmills. U can check the paper with a micrometer it's bang on 0,1. maybe this helps :D thanks for your content! great videos!
Michelangelo: carve away everything that isn’t David. RotarySMP: i’d just hack at it until everything that’s in the way was no longer there. Great minds think alike😁
If you have through spindle coolant it could definitely be the bearings in that. Or possibly the drawbar. The ones I've worked on have a butload of belleville washers which provide all the draw. Sometimes a few will crack and fly apart and rattle around inside. CNC's are fun! 🤣 Cheers!
Thanks, this has no through spindle coolant, but it does have the hydraulic released draw bar with a stack of bellvilles. I'd be thrilled if that was the issue.
Best advice I can give is tear it down and clean it before it wrecks itself and gets really (much more) expensive. My guess is it was feeling jealous of all the attention you were giving the bandsaw.
@@MikelNaUsaCom Hi Mike. for this job I kind of need the 4000 rpm, and to engrave even more so. If this is a broken bearing cage, it will probably get worse.
@@RotarySMP Totally agree, now it might be a choice to buy a 25mm boring bar, vs the cost of troubleshooting and repairing the maho bearings... either way or both, I'm here for the ride, and enjoy your videos, thanks for sharing the journey!
25:40 wir hatten in meinem Ausbildungsbetrieb auch eine Maho glaube eine MH600, da waren auch irgendwann die Spindellager im Eimer. Das hat einer von den „guten“ Schlossern neu gemacht. Also Lager sind wahrscheinlich normteile, sonst wäre die Maschine gleich auf den Schrott gegangen. Denke das rappeln könnte ein kaputter Lagerkäfig sein.
Wir haben die Lager in der Firma selber getauscht. Waren aber extra Spindellager von SKF (nicht gerade billig). Anschließend das Spindelspiel einstellen ist etwas knifflig. Ich glaub wir haben da ein paar Versuche gebraucht… Viel Erfolg
@@RotarySMP ich selbst habe es nicht gemacht und die Maschinen inclusive Unterlagen sind schon vor Jahren entsorgt worden. Aber ich frag mal einen Freund, ob die in ihrer Firma noch Unterlagen haben.
I disassembled one similar. I think it is not a bearing failure just because it probably uses tapered roller bearings. It could be the springs on the drawbar. If I am not mistaken the one I fixed the problem was on the bearing that drove the “pinion”
If you are nervous about the bother of fixing the lower bearings, check out David from Engineer's findings, he rebuilt the head of his Mikron WF-1 and was in a very similar position.
Impressed with all the work you put into recording and editing the video - more so than some of the work you show !! I know that if anything is to go wrong, it happens when filming - when getting the shot has the camera in the way, and distracts attention or proper access to controls. The finish on the cutting edge of your D bit is horrible. My school metal-work teacher of decades ago would ask if it had been sharpened by scraping on a concrete path :)
Thanks for the kind support Brian. Must have been strong concrete as that is carbide :) But yeah, once I film it with the macro, I can see that that diamond wheel is too rough.
I have a Maho 400p machine with the almost the same vertical head internals. There are a Gamet rolling precision bearings there(very very expensive and not replaceable, because spindle is a part of them), which needs to be lubricated periodically with a Premium Cluber grease to support such high rpms as you have. Maho, is a power milling machine first of all, so usually even 1-2k rpm cause spindle heating. And you have 4k...
@@dazaspc My observation around high volume production machines is that bearing failure is almost always due to contamination , followed by impact damage, and finally things just wear out. Bearings lubricated with Kluber grease nbu15 (ball) or ep8 (roller) ,any grease for that matter, need to be rotated to reform the oil film if not rotated for a while
@@steveggca If the oil has seperated out of the grease the grease is done. It's failed. It is the reason why the use by dates are on the tins and tubes. You can mix it up but it still falls apart. Contamination point made earlier is related to the lube point and the risk it introduces.
Sorry to hear that klonk-sound. Even if I have a similar vintage MAHO my self, I’m also sorry for not being able to help out in any way. Will watch anything you find and do to the MAHO with great interest though. Maybe it comes in handy one day, even if I have all kinds of other issues with mine. 😕
I hadn't thought of using copper pipe for soft jaws! Thanks. I've watched two of your vids recently, and your asides about MotoGP, and the Vendee happen to be my favorites also. BTW, you seem to be the Brit/Euro version of TOT (This Old Tony), right down to the CNC Maho.
Thanks. I'm a Kiwi in Austria. I got my Maho before TOT. He is the best. Nice guy, I helped him with the german schematics of the lube unit and he gave my channel a shout out. Wow, was that good for traffic :)
@@RotarySMP Sorry! I should have recognized your accent, I've known a few of your sailors. I remember TOT had some questions, and I heard about someone helping him. I forgot it was you. Wasn't MotoGP's last few races amazing? Assuming you don't mind Ducati... I'm glad Martine took it as it may be his last shot. I don't know why MotoGp doesn't have a bigger following, it's by far the most exciting race series available in any sport, much better than F1.
@@ChimeraActual Yeah, you can really see the athletism of those guys with their uncrashes, and saves. I was also rooting for Martin. He should have got the factory seat, but maybe denying it was what really lit the fire and made him a champion.
Your content is always top notch Mark. I wonder how you do it while also having a job that seems to be so demanding of your time! I'm a software architect as my day job which has me working around 50h/week and I hardly find a few hours each week to be out in my shop. Here you are clearly spending double digit hours in the shop plus that much time again on editing the videos! Impressive mate!
I also have a maho mh400c with a bad top bearing, my bearing roller actually exploded when i took the head apart. Since then (10years), i was able to find a new bearing but i need to re-grind the race in the housing. I have been slowly building my skill to get there. In the meantime, i am using mine as an horizontal only.
@RotarySMP Mine seem to be 1 generation older than yours (tall cone over the head). The main issue was pulling the top bearing inner race from the spindle, it had a pretty good interference fit. I did not have the right tool at the time and used brute force (slam the spindle on a piece of wood). A hydraulic press would have been a better option. I will take the occasion to try to make a TH-cam video about it.
Did you notice his bias, showing Conrad Coleman the Kiwi sailor. Just blatant bias I tell you. I've been following Pip Hare and Boris Hermann for years.
Ooof never did a Maho head, rebuilt a similar Zayer head ,did not enjoy it. the thing with these heads is that there is no where for the grease to go. as always , disassemble, clean, inspect, hope for the best . It might be that there is bevel gear wear and the gears are rattling with the backlash.
Don't have a lot of experience with maho heads sadly. Though the correct thing to do ( specially since it's not a machine thats getting used every day for mass production) would be to take the head completely apart and see what is wrong along with what is close to go wrong and change those things ( along with completely cleaning buth grease and oil lines ) Personally I always the my boring bars and drill them out to about 0.03-0.05 mm below the biggest carbide rod/bar that can fit within it with a bit of margin/ wall thickness ( so for a 25mm bring bar I put a 20mm carbide rod in it ). Eat up the boring bar and slip in the carbide rod. Giving it some more damping weight and also stiffen it up ( and a blank carbide rod isn't to expensive. Specially compared to buying a pre made carbide boring bar ( plus a fully carbide boring bar is more brittle since it have no flex but boring out a steel one means that it have a outer jacket of a more flexible material )
Yeah, tearing down that head is the next step. Wow, I never considered plugging the center with carbide. I have a sold carbide boring bar of 6mm shank which is brilliant for little things. Does it really make a difference on a short 25mm boring bar? This one is only going to be about 100mm long.
@@RotarySMP it might make a small diffrence depending on the stickout its gonna have ( if your going less then 2.5x diameter its only a tiny diffrence in bedium depth cut but both very light finish pass and heavy ones it makes more diffrence. and 3 plus times diameter it makes alot more of a diffrence )
Often the head of a boring bar is forged. So they smack that end to get it proud and then they machine it. That way they don’t remove all of that material, which would be a lot. It also strengthens that part. Good luck with these bearings. I just hate when manufacturers have a good idea and do something not standard, to very little actual advantage, but causing needless suffering when something goes wrong.
Is the knock at low speed normal? It sounded to me like one of the bearing elements was skipping. That normally an indication of debris in the race and or cage failure. Flush it out and inspect what has come out. If it's a element fail you will feel it by hand when clean. Often a Bakelite cage will drop a little chunk and if you catch it early it will still be ok once cleaned and correctly lubed. All that said I have never worked on a Maho spindle But done many other CNC lathe, mill and grinder brands. None surprisingly with integral bearings, thats rare amongst machine tools.
Thanks for your feedback on this. I hope against reason it is something in the tool stud puller, or in the upper, replaceable bearings. My biggest fear would be coolant getting past the lower laybrynth seal, and causing corrosion on those integral bearings. I'll be making a video on the tear down. I hope it is a good video, as I will need revenue to pay for this repair 😓
@@RotarySMP I did quite a bit of work with Chiron on spindle bearing problems that was mostly due to coolant contamination. Unless the lower labyrinth air vents were blocked I very much doubt that would be it. I would be more concerned with grease breakdown. NBU-15 used in many spindle bearings is done after a couple of years. Hopefully that isnt the stuff you need for this. I wouldnt be to concerned about the draw bar however it could be the gripper on the end that attaches to the pull studs. A broken return spring and or a broken anti rotation pin could make noise on startup but wouldnt continue when running. Claw types often rattle a little when empty. According to a drawing I found on the net that I think you may have posted The main spindle bearings are easily replaceable. The knockout seals should not affect contamination unless seals have failed and even then you should get a air leak if you hold the knockout on and listen. . The most difficult part of the job would be re lubricating the bearings in place. Getting grease into the third bearing in the stack at the correct volume wont be easy with the upper labyrinth in place. When assembling these they are done pre assembly. One final thing if you do have issues with the knockout seals or even if not make sure the pneumatics controlling them are in full working order. Speed of activation , pressure switches if used and the most important the valves exhaust. Even with a Quick Exhaust in the system a slow pilot valve exhaust can cause problems. Regardless you know what you are doing I only comment to suggest as I miss that sort of work and I cant do it anymore. Have a great day.. ☺
Aha! I'm early in the comments for this one. Just starting to watch the sound of money draining from your bank account - Heather PS: Oh yeah, that didn't sound good at all. Hope a commenter is able to help. Thanks for the breakdown of the numbers and letters code on the indexable cutters.
I like that boring head, well designed. The noise sounds like a bearing cage click like from a wheel bearing. Course there was a time in the 90s when they were selling wheel bearings with (regular tapered bearings) with plastic cages. That was a horrible idea and led to allot of destroyed spindles. I hope it's something less serious as headstock bearings are a fortune for anything. As for the main shaft in that being the inner bearing surface... I really don't like that cost saving method. It's done in automotive for rear axles other than the Ford 9" which has a proper bearing. It does make precision better but vastly increases repair costs over time.
Hi Robert, yeah I am still in the denial stage of grief on this one. I really really hope it is not a trashed integral bearing. But it does seem to be the consensus opinion that it sounds like a cage.
@RotarySMP Well for me when there is something broken it's always the most costly biggest pain etc to fix. And it's always the obscure that never fails that way item. I hope it's not but there isn't much else it could be.
Most simple parts, I use the conversational programming provided by Andy Pugh's "Lathe macro" plug in for LinuxCNC. For complex parts I use and ancient (2005) version of featurecam.
@@RotarySMP Do you use it on the milling machine? already as linux cnc? What hardware is used to connect the milling machine to the computer? I bought some Heidenhain EXE to change the signal to a normal TTL signal, but I don't know how to do it yet.
@@robertfekete1874 I think you are misunderstanding the relationship. LinuxCNC is the machine controller. there are a number of different GUI options. I use Gmoccapy as the Gui on all my machines. For lathes there is the conversational plugin "lathe macros". For the mill there is NativeCAM but I dont use it. If I use a CAM program (Either FreeCAD's "Path" workbench, or my ancient version FeatureCAM, then I use the sneaker net to transfer the files to the CNC machine. Sneaker net... I put the file on a USB thumb drive, and then walk to the machine and plug it in.
Honestly it kind of sounds like a spinning/sticking race. Only one way to tell....take it apart and inspect everything for proper installation. Try to find a manual with inspection procedures, tolerances and a parts list. Do it sooner than later because if you jam up the bearing or spin the race too much, you may gouge or crack things.
What i find interesting that you have the whole mill dancing on the floor when you shake it, tho i know that the most important thing is that the mill has to be rigid to itself.
Hi Mark looking at the drawing , i see that the bevel gear train has no actual need for support from the quill spline (I think) I wonder if its ok to run the head without the quill to isolate the noise.
Does Linux CNC not support working plane selection (G17 / 18 / 19) ? Default would be G17 for XY plane, which puts the tool length offset in Z. Selecting G18 for XZ working plane should put the tool length length offset in Y. Curious as to why you use finish profiling inserts for roughing ?
I guess coming from the mini lathe, and only doing one off stuff, I never really hog through material at anywhere max rate, so I just use these positive inserts for everything. LinuxCNC does do G17/G18/19, but I am not sure if the tool table follows it like that.
@@RotarySMP I have had a quick look at the Linux CNC documentation and it is rather vague. But there is little point in being able to select a working plane if the tool length compensation doesn't default to the non-working plane axis & put the tool radius compensation using G41 G42 onto the working plane axes.. Changing the working plane was the way universal heads were accomodated using Heidenhain controls when I worked with such things - the machine was initially set up for a vertical spindle, but if the head was swivelled so the tool was aligned with the X or Y axes then working plane selection took care of the length offset. The Linux CNC documentation does only mention the Z axis for length comps, but the tool table has possible entries for X, Y and Z values. Have you tried setting a tool length offset in the Y axis with G18 set ? If the length value gets entered in the Z field of the tool table by default, could it be moved to the Y field ?
*klack klack klack klack* kinda sounds like a bearing cage is in pieces ... Rather take it apart asap and fix it before it gets a lot more expensive. Or wear noise cancelling over ears till it goes away with a loud, even more expensive bang. ^^
Yeah, I helped him a little with the Lube unit schematic, and he gave me a shout out back then, which really helped the channel. I dont think he has pulled out his spindle yet.
Sorry for all the separate comments, hopefully it's just a good thing and boosts your engagement ;) I'm currently trying to decide if I should pick up a K&T #2 horizontal mill, the owner is selling it for basically nothing. Total cost to me including rigging/shipping will be like 2,000 bucks. I have never used a horizontal before though so I'd love any insight you'd be willing to share from running the Maho in horizontal mode!
CNC Horizontals tend to be the choice for production. The better chip evacuation is a real benefit. It is a bit more challenging to set up and see what is happening. Given most of what I do it pretty small, I am sometimes challenged to get the part up to the spindle with the table at top of travel. Classic manual horizontals are great for hogging off huge amounts of metal with disc cutters on an arbor. Luke uses his in Horizontal mode all the time.
@@RotarySMP Thanks for the input :) Good luck figuring out the issue with your vertical head BTW. To my ears that sounded more like a bit of metal being thrown around inside the head, maybe a gear tooth chipped? Don't know why that would only happen at max RPM though if that was the case.
They dont have a brand on them. I bought them from www.aircraft-tool.com/shop It looks like they no longer sell that model, but under sheet metal tools they have a nice selection.
I would consider making 2 different post processors for your CAM software so that you can export gcode as either Horizontal or Vertical format without altering your machine setup
Hey great video. The milling head sadly does not sound good. Maybe try to contact Franz Singer (Werkzeugmaschienen), they usually are more knowledgeable on Deckel machines but also have some Maho parts. I know from some forum posts that they rebuild Deckel heads from time to time. Maybe they have an idea.
Would be good if you could somehow isolate the bearings from everything else. I find it unlikely that the main spindle bearings should be gone. It would be good to eliminate everything else if possible before going to that extreme. Seems akin to opening Pandora's Box.😬
I have woodworking cnc machine using gmoccapy. I occasionally mount a router pointing in the y- (as you were doing) to mill tennons in the ends of long pieces. I have swapped my z and y axis, limits etc. as you described in another (copied) configuration. I get no errors and it works very well, but I am using open loop steppers. Your maho uses servos? Could this be the problem?
@ I was going to say are the axis motors the same. As they are not, you will need to swap the y and z pid values etc. my point is it does work so it is worth persevering. The reason I haven’t tried G18 is I use ncam (nativecam) for all the canned cycles. This will only work with G17 and gmoccapy using python 2.
@@chrisfairbrother9197 I also never upgraded the mill so it is still on LinuxCNC V2.7. I would need to redo my HAL's to bring it up to V2.9 due to the switch to joints, and it has been a "If it works, dont dick with it" scenario.
@ yes I totally agree. I have 2 hard drives on my machine, one for work using 2.7, and one for testing Qtdragon_hd on 2.10 bookworm.This way I always have a working machine and I can test what is new.
Hmmm, consider servicing your spindles more often... The grinder one too... If it has grease lubed bearings - service them at least every 5 years... Ain`t no such thing as ``lubed for life`` unless you want to keep tossing good stuff in the bin due to sloth... Lubed for life is like ``sharp for life`` cutter of any sort... It`s the reason why i`m not running my Schaublin 22 mill - that grease is 50yo in a new-old stock machine, and while she may have ran for a few hours somewhere in the past, that is no excuse to run that ``lubricant`` for even a second in the ``current year``... Stefan just recently posted a vid on him mill service or rather regular maintenance, and sure enough - more people should treat their machines in that manner... From the sound, it seems like your mill has just entered puberty by dropping some balls... I guess you will have to have ``that talk`` now - tho, the talk will be with a bearing supplier, i`m afraid... However, i`m not sure how that spindle is designed - you literally might just have a loose nut in the assembly of the spindle(inside the quill)... I seem to recall watching Oxtoolco`s BP video or was it Robin, not sure, but that machine actually had a spindle assembly nut loose, not all the way, but in a few months or so it would have started rattling... So you might kinda be okay after all, but as said, i`m not a maho rep and i have no idea how the spindle design looks like and what it involves, so i can`t really make a call, but that endmill getting fucked speaks of loose bearings or bearing damage, or rather - runout... Best regards! Steuss P.s. Just seen the last minute - shit man... That is the worse version of the Deckel FP1 integral bearing spindle... Well, it`s an uglier twin essentially... The Deckel could at least theoretically be reground for ``oversized balls`` and restored thusly at least once, thus doubling the life of the quill cartridge... Yikes...
@@RotarySMP I edited the comment, so i`ll reply here... Yeah, i just saw the last minute diagram... Yikes m8... Integral bearings are nice in every way except for the scenario where they fail... Cartridge quills are just a fookin pain in the ass...
I watched again the part of the video where you ran the spindle at different speeds using headphones. I think there are some short squeaking noises at all speeds, not only at the highest speed. To me it sounds like a broken bearing, but I could be completely wrong. If I were you, I'd start with disassembling the "less critical" parts first, like the draw bar mechanism. Maybe you find something in that area. I'd leave disassembling the spindle itself last and only do that if nothing else helps. I have a Wohlhaupter UPA-3 boring head, witch is the smaller cousin of what you have. It comes with some split sleaves that allow using tools with smaller shank diameter than the 18 mm it nominally takes. I think making such sleeves might be easier than making a boring bar. Also, I suspect that you can buy the sleeves.
Thanks Gabriel, that is pretty much my course of action. Disassemble and hope it is not the bearings, while knowing it probably is :) Yeah, I also plan to make some sleeves as I have a few 16mm boring bars, but need to also make a dovetail cutter with the DCMT's, so I need to get this tool path working.
Hi Doric, since the gearbox is behind the horizontal spindle, I was listening for it while cutting with the horizontal, but didn't hear anything. The consensus seems to be that it is a bearing cage broken.
I got a 2.5G one for the basement, so I can connect in the NAS I built, and also use it to connect in my Atem mini pro Iso streaming setup when I do my Patreon livestreams.
Using a CNC almost seems like cheating, I machined up a mini Flycutter recently to take the next size tip down from the one you are using on my little homemade mill, it had me on edge for most of the milling, but it all came out well in the end.
It is difficult to guess what's the origin of that clicking noise. The suggested flushing might give an indication. Meanwhile fingers X-ed that it will not be too bad.
Ad libbed nomenclature ftw! Hmm, that noise is odd that it only manifests at high speed with no artifacts at others. Could it be the quill rack rattling at a harmonic?
I think the problem there was I had been sand blasting, and had the air Px up full, and forgot to reset the pressure down to the lathes level, so the tail stock was pushing too hard.
That head sounds almoast as bad as the spindle of my EmcoTurn. On that, a few chips got through the labyrinth seal causing damage to the first bearing. That bearing got so hot, that the grease burned up causing the sounds.
Wow time flies, it's Dec 1st already. Here comes 2025. Have you started on your New Year's plans/resolutions yet? oh, also Christmas plans hope those are going well.
Any particular reason for using DCMT inserts, Mark? To my way of thinking DCMT is a poor choice for a boring tool. DCxx and DNxx inserts are generally reserved for external profiling fine details and undercuts. DCMT has only 2 cutting edges per each expensive insert. Narrow point angle is weaker than simpler and cheaper triangular inserts. A good rule of thumb use double sided inserts for heavy / roughing operations and keep the single sided inserts for finishing. Don't know why but may of the home gamer You tubers are selecting these diamond shaped inserts. In industry these would be considered almost specialist tooling, because they are expensive per edge as well as having lower metal removal rates. Make a second bar for TCMT and compare, I think you will then agree with my assessment.
I need to make up another dovetail cutting tool, and DMCT will be the choice for that. I figured if I use the same for my boring bar, I only need to design the tool path once.
Hi Julia, I hope against reason that is is a rattle in the draw bar. Yes, the sound was the same with or without a tool. It sure does sound like that...💵💵💵
I have no knowlege of MAHO gearboxes, but on old Harley gearboxes if they make that semi-random "chik chik chik" noise in one gear only, it usually means the fork alignment is off and when the gears are moved into that one position the position is slightly wrong and something is JUST rubbing with that gear pair. Was that little tool you ground carbide? I have never seen HSS fracture like that. That Diamond Carbide Mighty Tough stuff is too brittle, better to stick with Handy Sharp Stuff
@RotarySMP A single point carbide tool with that small a diameter I would run about 12,000 RPM on my machine. They tend to break too much at lower RPMs in steel. Sorry I thought the gears were in the head. An old trick is to put a screwdriver handle pressed to your ear like a stethoscope and touch the metal end of the screwdriver on different parts of the head, that might help track it down to see if it is top bearings, bottom bearings or the 90 degree drive gears. Might not be that much helpmif the casting is mega solid but hey every suggestion has the possibility of being useful 😎
@@wizrom3046 Thanks. You what it funny, I whipped up that stethoscope I used in the thumbnail, from some 3D printed parts I designed in 5 min. It actually sort of works. Not great, but it does transmit the sound :) Unfortunately, there is a sheet metal cover over the casting.
@ChimeraActual that's him. He was from nova scotia but sailed all over and became an American citizen. He did leave from Boston for the round the world trip.
@@marsniper27 Let's see how far we can hijack this... I just looked it up, Joshua Left Boston in 1895 and returned to Rhode Island in 1898. There were a few adventures in between, he wrote a book, "Sailing Alone Around the World,". That was the same era my Nova Scotian grandfather, Captain A. H. Caldwell (Coldwell if you are Canadian) was sailing the New York -- China route in his Bark Hamburg. My grandmother sailed with him once, and hated it, told me harrowing stories. She and the rest of the family then moved to Boston. I wonder if they ever met.
@@ChimeraActual definitely a chance if they were both there around the same time. Joshua spent several years based out of sanfransico before going to Massachusetts.
This is perhaps a dumb question, from a non-machinist. Is there a reason that you didn't just bore a hole in your 25mm slug and insert one of your existing commercial boring bars? In effect making an adapter sleeve. ("Because that doesn't make good content" is an acceptable answer.)
Good question Brian. I probably will make a reduction sleeve to use some of my other boring bars, but rigidity goes up with the 4th (? or was that 3rd?) power to diameter, so I would like a 25mm boring bar to take full advantage of the Maho and Narex rigidity for bigger hoes or and longer ones.
I have the same VHU 80 boring / facing head. It's a great bit of kit once you get your head around how to use it. They're beautifully made. Mine came in a set with various 25mm brazed carbide boring bars, which I've never used, and various reducing sleeves. It also included all sorts of 25mm 90 degree boring bar adaptors, which enable you to reach inside small holes, etc despite the relatively large size of the head. I'd bought my lathe tooling in job lots, and they included some short 16mm and 25mm CCGT insert boring bars, which I had no use for at the time. When I got the boring head, they were perfect for it.
You really have to check out why your lathe chuck is slipping so much. Either your holding force is just pathetic, or your tailstock is way over pressured.
Oh man🙈 i Hope it‘s not the bearings🥹 They tend to be costly on the maho mills. Stefan GTWR explained the Deckel spindels in one of his recent Videos……. If they are damaged grinding would be the only Solution………. singer in germany seems to be the Company doing this on a regular base…….
Hi Christian, yeah, I have a feeling this will end up going that way. I would like to do the disassembly and inspection here, so I can make a video of it, and hopefully earn a little towards the rebuild. :/
My vote is a split bearing cage. Look at it like this: The Maho is a perpetual content machine, blessing you with an opportunity for a bunch of rebuild videos :)
Thanks Dieter. That is kind of what I thought it sounds like as well.
When doing pockets for inserts, we used to mill out with a parallel cutter first and just finish the top couple of mm with the taper. This gives you clearance at the bottom to ensure the insert is held tight against the angle. When drilling for the screw, we used to offset about 0.15mm towards the back, that way you are jamming the insert in to the profile and using the taper of the insert screw to pull everything in place.
Good luck with the bearings.
Thanks for the tips. I was going to use the 3mm parallel end mill to do most of it, but am not sure why I trashed it o fast.
@@RotarySMP It may have been the vibration from the bearings that led to the early demise of the 3mm cutter.
@@bobuilt10 Good point, could well be.
The problem of rattling noise in spindle bearings is caused by cage instability. The company APO-Gee in Belgium has developed a solution, the Butterfly cage, which completely resolves the issue at all speeds without causing any temperature increase! The technology was initially developed for space applications bearings and is now being transferred to machine tool spindles.
Thanks Sebastian, did you see my follow on video?
That'll be a bother then, but think of the tear down, investigate, and reassembly videos to come. Thanks for bringing us along!
Hi John, Yeah, I hope it is a popular series, as I can see this being pricey to repair. :/
@RotarySMP I had a similar sound from head of my mikron wf3. Replaced the bearings that support the bevel gears and problem solved. They were new old stock high precision Japanese bearings from ebay less than $100 each. Look forward to the tear down.... if it comes to that.
@@Ballba365 The bevel gear bearings on my spindle do sound a bit dry.
Quick tip for setting up ur tool lenght in the MAHO:
U can use a piece of 80g/m² paper and move it around below the cutter coming down in Z (JOG 0,01mm). Once the paper is tight (u cant move it easily) u are 0,1mm above your refrenceplane.
this way u dont kill your cutting edges of your endmills. U can check the paper with a micrometer it's bang on 0,1.
maybe this helps :D
thanks for your content! great videos!
Thanks. I have tried this method, but sooner or later, even bit of paper in range of the mill is either gone or oil soaked and falling apart :)
Michelangelo: carve away everything that isn’t David.
RotarySMP: i’d just hack at it until everything that’s in the way was no longer there.
Great minds think alike😁
Thanks Marc :)
Lmao you got me good with DCMT = "diamond carbide mighty tough"
Glad you enjoyed that. I think the most accurate of that description was the 04 :)
Most diamond carbide is mighty tough. Only ceramic diamond carbide is brittle.
@@HansFormerlyTraffer They must be the CDBT inserts then :)
If you have through spindle coolant it could definitely be the bearings in that. Or possibly the drawbar. The ones I've worked on have a butload of belleville washers which provide all the draw. Sometimes a few will crack and fly apart and rattle around inside.
CNC's are fun! 🤣
Cheers!
Thanks, this has no through spindle coolant, but it does have the hydraulic released draw bar with a stack of bellvilles. I'd be thrilled if that was the issue.
So good seeing you following the Vendée Globe !
I had the chance to see the start with my own eyes, what a great feeling 😊
It was quiet bizarre that they set off into wind still :)
Best advice I can give is tear it down and clean it before it wrecks itself and gets really (much more) expensive. My guess is it was feeling jealous of all the attention you were giving the bandsaw.
Thanks JD. I suspect you are right. :)
Your explanation of the parameters for the DCMT11T304 is hilarious! LMAO 🤣
Do you ever wish you had his toys in your shed?? If only Maho did a miçro mill🤔
That would a fun machine Paul. :)
It's always fun to see people playing around making tooling and stuff. All the angles and cutting and grinding.
Glad you enjoyed that.
Thanks Mark for the ‘round-the-world’ sailing link. I had no idea of such an event. I’ll definitely be checking it out 👍😎👍
Hi Joel. I am really hooked (on watching it... it is nuts to participate :)
Easiest solution to noisy machinery is noise cancelling headphones and wait for a catastrophic bang.🤣
Thanks Ken. I am pretty good at that method :)
@@RotarySMP just run it at lower speeds? and compensate with different cuts and feed rate? do you really need the small tools? lol.
@@MikelNaUsaCom Hi Mike. for this job I kind of need the 4000 rpm, and to engrave even more so. If this is a broken bearing cage, it will probably get worse.
@@RotarySMP Totally agree, now it might be a choice to buy a 25mm boring bar, vs the cost of troubleshooting and repairing the maho bearings... either way or both, I'm here for the ride, and enjoy your videos, thanks for sharing the journey!
@@MikelNaUsaCom I have to get that vertical head running ago. 'll be tearing it down.
25:40 wir hatten in meinem Ausbildungsbetrieb auch eine Maho glaube eine MH600, da waren auch irgendwann die Spindellager im Eimer. Das hat einer von den „guten“ Schlossern neu gemacht. Also Lager sind wahrscheinlich normteile, sonst wäre die Maschine gleich auf den Schrott gegangen. Denke das rappeln könnte ein kaputter Lagerkäfig sein.
Danke dir. Mir klingt es auch wie ein Käfig.
Wir haben die Lager in der Firma selber getauscht. Waren aber extra Spindellager von SKF (nicht gerade billig). Anschließend das Spindelspiel einstellen ist etwas knifflig. Ich glaub wir haben da ein paar Versuche gebraucht…
Viel Erfolg
@@uwepfitzner9682 Hast du unterlagen zu die Einstellung, oder Notizen die mir hilfen könten bitte?
@@RotarySMP ich selbst habe es nicht gemacht und die Maschinen inclusive Unterlagen sind schon vor Jahren entsorgt worden. Aber ich frag mal einen Freund, ob die in ihrer Firma noch Unterlagen haben.
@@uwepfitzner9682 Danke schön Uwe.
I disassembled one similar. I think it is not a bearing failure just because it probably uses tapered roller bearings. It could be the springs on the drawbar. If I am not mistaken the one I fixed the problem was on the bearing that drove the “pinion”
I would be happy if it is something like that. Time to strip it.
Just been recommended your channel after CEE video glad I got the recommendation
Thanks for joining Aaron. Kurt and Karen are legendary.
If you are nervous about the bother of fixing the lower bearings, check out David from Engineer's findings, he rebuilt the head of his Mikron WF-1 and was in a very similar position.
Thanks for the link.
Yacht racing, Dub and metal machining your channel is awesome! hope that machine is easy to fix mate, good luck on that
Thanks a lot Nicolas. I hope so as well.
Impressed with all the work you put into recording and editing the video - more so than some of the work you show !! I know that if anything is to go wrong, it happens when filming - when getting the shot has the camera in the way, and distracts attention or proper access to controls. The finish on the cutting edge of your D bit is horrible. My school metal-work teacher of decades ago would ask if it had been sharpened by scraping on a concrete path :)
Thanks for the kind support Brian.
Must have been strong concrete as that is carbide :) But yeah, once I film it with the macro, I can see that that diamond wheel is too rough.
I have a Maho 400p machine with the almost the same vertical head internals.
There are a Gamet rolling precision bearings there(very very expensive and not replaceable, because spindle is a part of them), which needs to be lubricated periodically with a Premium Cluber grease to support such high rpms as you have.
Maho, is a power milling machine first of all, so usually even 1-2k rpm cause spindle heating. And you have 4k...
Mine has no provision for spindle bearing lubrication. I really dont understand why they didn't provide for that.
@@RotarySMP Contamination risk
@@dazaspc Good point.
@@dazaspc My observation around high volume production machines is that bearing failure is almost always due to
contamination , followed by impact damage, and finally things just wear out.
Bearings lubricated with Kluber grease nbu15 (ball) or ep8 (roller) ,any grease for that matter,
need to be rotated to reform the oil film if not rotated for a while
@@steveggca If the oil has seperated out of the grease the grease is done. It's failed. It is the reason why the use by dates are on the tins and tubes. You can mix it up but it still falls apart. Contamination point made earlier is related to the lube point and the risk it introduces.
Sorry to hear that klonk-sound.
Even if I have a similar vintage MAHO my self, I’m also sorry for not being able to help out in any way.
Will watch anything you find and do to the MAHO with great interest though.
Maybe it comes in handy one day, even if I have all kinds of other issues with mine. 😕
I hope I can provide some content of use to your Maho as well.
I hadn't thought of using copper pipe for soft jaws! Thanks.
I've watched two of your vids recently, and your asides about MotoGP, and the Vendee happen to be my favorites also.
BTW, you seem to be the Brit/Euro version of TOT (This Old Tony), right down to the CNC Maho.
Thanks. I'm a Kiwi in Austria. I got my Maho before TOT. He is the best. Nice guy, I helped him with the german schematics of the lube unit and he gave my channel a shout out. Wow, was that good for traffic :)
@@RotarySMP Sorry! I should have recognized your accent, I've known a few of your sailors.
I remember TOT had some questions, and I heard about someone helping him. I forgot it was you.
Wasn't MotoGP's last few races amazing? Assuming you don't mind Ducati... I'm glad Martine took it as it may be his last shot. I don't know why MotoGp doesn't have a bigger following, it's by far the most exciting race series available in any sport, much better than F1.
@@RotarySMP Someday you will have to tell us the story of a Kiwi getting to Austria.
@@HansFormerlyTraffer Pretty simple. Amore. :)
@@ChimeraActual Yeah, you can really see the athletism of those guys with their uncrashes, and saves. I was also rooting for Martin. He should have got the factory seat, but maybe denying it was what really lit the fire and made him a champion.
Your content is always top notch Mark. I wonder how you do it while also having a job that seems to be so demanding of your time! I'm a software architect as my day job which has me working around 50h/week and I hardly find a few hours each week to be out in my shop. Here you are clearly spending double digit hours in the shop plus that much time again on editing the videos! Impressive mate!
Thanks for your kind feedback. Yeah I dont get to many other hobbies other than this these days.
Damn it I fell asleep watching this, this morning lol. Oh well guess I'll just have to watch it all over again. 👍👍
Thanks for that. Sorry it was boring :)
Yes, make the tool to make the jig to work hold the piece to make the thingamajigy 😂
And then half way through get side tracked and never get around to the Thingamjigy at all 🤣
Most insert pockets have 90 degree sides, I’ve made plenty like that and they work fine.
That is interesting. The ones I see from Sandvik seem to have angle to match the inserts.
I also have a maho mh400c with a bad top bearing, my bearing roller actually exploded when i took the head apart. Since then (10years), i was able to find a new bearing but i need to re-grind the race in the housing. I have been slowly building my skill to get there. In the meantime, i am using mine as an horizontal only.
Sorry to hear that Charles.
Was there anything difficult or tricky about the disassembly process I need to know?
@RotarySMP Mine seem to be 1 generation older than yours (tall cone over the head). The main issue was pulling the top bearing inner race from the spindle, it had a pretty good interference fit. I did not have the right tool at the time and used brute force (slam the spindle on a piece of wood). A hydraulic press would have been a better option.
I will take the occasion to try to make a TH-cam video about it.
@@CharlesXavierRoy That would be cool. Please do.
@@RotarySMPHere is a video about the spindle construction: th-cam.com/video/uUNHngx68xY/w-d-xo.html . I will try to do an other one for the head.
I appreciate you sharing the learning experiences and the successes.
Thanks a lot Jim.
Vendée Globe! So happy to see I’m not the only one following 😀👍
It is fascinating to watch.
Did you notice his bias, showing Conrad Coleman the Kiwi sailor. Just blatant bias I tell you. I've been following Pip Hare and Boris Hermann for years.
@@sheerluckholmes5468 You got me on that Bias. Go Conrad :)
Ooof never did a Maho head, rebuilt a similar Zayer head ,did not enjoy it.
the thing with these heads is that there is no where for the grease to go.
as always , disassemble, clean, inspect, hope for the best .
It might be that there is bevel gear wear and the gears are rattling with the backlash.
Hi Steve, I am still at the denial stage of grief on this one. :)
Don't have a lot of experience with maho heads sadly. Though the correct thing to do ( specially since it's not a machine thats getting used every day for mass production) would be to take the head completely apart and see what is wrong along with what is close to go wrong and change those things ( along with completely cleaning buth grease and oil lines )
Personally I always the my boring bars and drill them out to about 0.03-0.05 mm below the biggest carbide rod/bar that can fit within it with a bit of margin/ wall thickness ( so for a 25mm bring bar I put a 20mm carbide rod in it ). Eat up the boring bar and slip in the carbide rod. Giving it some more damping weight and also stiffen it up ( and a blank carbide rod isn't to expensive. Specially compared to buying a pre made carbide boring bar ( plus a fully carbide boring bar is more brittle since it have no flex but boring out a steel one means that it have a outer jacket of a more flexible material )
Yeah, tearing down that head is the next step.
Wow, I never considered plugging the center with carbide. I have a sold carbide boring bar of 6mm shank which is brilliant for little things. Does it really make a difference on a short 25mm boring bar? This one is only going to be about 100mm long.
@@RotarySMP it might make a small diffrence depending on the stickout its gonna have ( if your going less then 2.5x diameter its only a tiny diffrence in bedium depth cut but both very light finish pass and heavy ones it makes more diffrence. and 3 plus times diameter it makes alot more of a diffrence )
@@flikflak24 Thanks for sharing your experience.
@@RotarySMP your welcome M8.
got more for you later if you want
I loved it when the Whitbread came by. they came going south on the beggining of summer (dec) and going back north on early march
Peter Blake was a legend in my youth.
Often the head of a boring bar is forged. So they smack that end to get it proud and then they machine it. That way they don’t remove all of that material, which would be a lot. It also strengthens that part. Good luck with these bearings. I just hate when manufacturers have a good idea and do something not standard, to very little actual advantage, but causing needless suffering when something goes wrong.
Thanks Mel, I am still in the denial phase of grief on that spindle :/
your explanation of insert modell was best
Thanks Jürgen. Glad you enjoyed that :)
Is the knock at low speed normal?
It sounded to me like one of the bearing elements was skipping. That normally an indication of debris in the race and or cage failure.
Flush it out and inspect what has come out. If it's a element fail you will feel it by hand when clean.
Often a Bakelite cage will drop a little chunk and if you catch it early it will still be ok once cleaned and correctly lubed.
All that said I have never worked on a Maho spindle But done many other CNC lathe, mill and grinder brands. None surprisingly with integral bearings, thats rare amongst machine tools.
Thanks for your feedback on this. I hope against reason it is something in the tool stud puller, or in the upper, replaceable bearings. My biggest fear would be coolant getting past the lower laybrynth seal, and causing corrosion on those integral bearings.
I'll be making a video on the tear down. I hope it is a good video, as I will need revenue to pay for this repair 😓
@@RotarySMP I did quite a bit of work with Chiron on spindle bearing problems that was mostly due to coolant contamination. Unless the lower labyrinth air vents were blocked I very much doubt that would be it. I would be more concerned with grease breakdown. NBU-15 used in many spindle bearings is done after a couple of years. Hopefully that isnt the stuff you need for this.
I wouldnt be to concerned about the draw bar however it could be the gripper on the end that attaches to the pull studs. A broken return spring and or a broken anti rotation pin could make noise on startup but wouldnt continue when running. Claw types often rattle a little when empty.
According to a drawing I found on the net that I think you may have posted The main spindle bearings are easily replaceable. The knockout seals should not affect contamination unless seals have failed and even then you should get a air leak if you hold the knockout on and listen. . The most difficult part of the job would be re lubricating the bearings in place. Getting grease into the third bearing in the stack at the correct volume wont be easy with the upper labyrinth in place. When assembling these they are done pre assembly.
One final thing if you do have issues with the knockout seals or even if not make sure the pneumatics controlling them are in full working order. Speed of activation , pressure switches if used and the most important the valves exhaust. Even with a Quick Exhaust in the system a slow pilot valve exhaust can cause problems.
Regardless you know what you are doing I only comment to suggest as I miss that sort of work and I cant do it anymore.
Have a great day..
☺
@@dazaspc Thanks a lot for your input. This spindle has no pneumatics. It uses a hydraulic kick out of the draw bar, with springs to retract it.
Aha! I'm early in the comments for this one. Just starting to watch the sound of money draining from your bank account - Heather
PS: Oh yeah, that didn't sound good at all. Hope a commenter is able to help. Thanks for the breakdown of the numbers and letters code on the indexable cutters.
Yep, you got that right, Heather.
Glad you liked that. :)
I like that boring head, well designed. The noise sounds like a bearing cage click like from a wheel bearing. Course there was a time in the 90s when they were selling wheel bearings with (regular tapered bearings) with plastic cages. That was a horrible idea and led to allot of destroyed spindles. I hope it's something less serious as headstock bearings are a fortune for anything. As for the main shaft in that being the inner bearing surface... I really don't like that cost saving method. It's done in automotive for rear axles other than the Ford 9" which has a proper bearing. It does make precision better but vastly increases repair costs over time.
Hi Robert, yeah I am still in the denial stage of grief on this one. I really really hope it is not a trashed integral bearing. But it does seem to be the consensus opinion that it sounds like a cage.
@RotarySMP Well for me when there is something broken it's always the most costly biggest pain etc to fix. And it's always the obscure that never fails that way item.
I hope it's not but there isn't much else it could be.
@@theinfernalcraftsman Yeah, Murphy hates us :)
Now that is a boring bar. Looking great.
Thanks, I look forward to finally using it.
Yaaay hello! Love your videos.
Thanks for the kind feedback. I appreciate it.
Hello, which program do you use for the cnc lathe?
Most simple parts, I use the conversational programming provided by Andy Pugh's "Lathe macro" plug in for LinuxCNC. For complex parts I use and ancient (2005) version of featurecam.
@@RotarySMP i was a bit surprised, i didn't know linuxcnc had such a good screen and that it can turn
@@robertfekete1874 I use the Gmoccapy Gui which was created by a German guy. It is very model, and sort of based on the Heidenhein Gui.
@@RotarySMP Do you use it on the milling machine?
already as linux cnc?
What hardware is used to connect the milling machine to the computer?
I bought some Heidenhain EXE to change the signal to a normal TTL signal, but I don't know how to do it yet.
@@robertfekete1874 I think you are misunderstanding the relationship. LinuxCNC is the machine controller. there are a number of different GUI options. I use Gmoccapy as the Gui on all my machines. For lathes there is the conversational plugin "lathe macros". For the mill there is NativeCAM but I dont use it.
If I use a CAM program (Either FreeCAD's "Path" workbench, or my ancient version FeatureCAM, then I use the sneaker net to transfer the files to the CNC machine.
Sneaker net... I put the file on a USB thumb drive, and then walk to the machine and plug it in.
Nice video! I'm sorry about your milling head. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's only a small thing!
You and me both Chris.
Honestly it kind of sounds like a spinning/sticking race. Only one way to tell....take it apart and inspect everything for proper installation. Try to find a manual with inspection procedures, tolerances and a parts list. Do it sooner than later because if you jam up the bearing or spin the race too much, you may gouge or crack things.
Yep, that is the next step. I'll make a video on it.
What i find interesting that you have the whole mill dancing on the floor when you shake it, tho i know that the most important thing is that the mill has to be rigid to itself.
Yeah, It is still up on wooden blocks. I need to weld up a steel stand, as I need to be able to get the pallet jack under it.
Hi Mark looking at the drawing , i see that the bevel gear train has no actual need for support from the quill spline (I think)
I wonder if its ok to run the head without the quill to isolate the noise.
Hi Steve, I am just in the process of taking it off the machine, and need to see what can be done in which order.
Reading German when the brain is in english-mode: "Why is that called a 3D-Taster?... Oh, right".
I dont even notice anymore if I am reading in DE or EN.
I just bought a 2,5 Gig switch myself too :D
I use this on my NAS. Still pretty slow given the huge amount of video data I archive there.
Does Linux CNC not support working plane selection (G17 / 18 / 19) ? Default would be G17 for XY plane, which puts the tool length offset in Z. Selecting G18 for XZ working plane should put the tool length length offset in Y.
Curious as to why you use finish profiling inserts for roughing ?
I guess coming from the mini lathe, and only doing one off stuff, I never really hog through material at anywhere max rate, so I just use these positive inserts for everything.
LinuxCNC does do G17/G18/19, but I am not sure if the tool table follows it like that.
@@RotarySMP I have had a quick look at the Linux CNC documentation and it is rather vague. But there is little point in being able to select a working plane if the tool length compensation doesn't default to the non-working plane axis & put the tool radius compensation using G41 G42 onto the working plane axes.. Changing the working plane was the way universal heads were accomodated using Heidenhain controls when I worked with such things - the machine was initially set up for a vertical spindle, but if the head was swivelled so the tool was aligned with the X or Y axes then working plane selection took care of the length offset.
The Linux CNC documentation does only mention the Z axis for length comps, but the tool table has possible entries for X, Y and Z values. Have you tried setting a tool length offset in the Y axis with G18 set ? If the length value gets entered in the Z field of the tool table by default, could it be moved to the Y field ?
@@mgnbukint6502 I haven't as I got side tracked working on my band saw gearbox. I need to revisit the whole horizontal mill thing.
*klack klack klack klack* kinda sounds like a bearing cage is in pieces ...
Rather take it apart asap and fix it before it gets a lot more expensive.
Or wear noise cancelling over ears till it goes away with a loud, even more expensive bang. ^^
Yeah, I was also thinking it may well be that. I'll be stripping it down, and making a video (to help pay for the repair :)
Talk to this old Tony he is well versed with the old maho
Yeah, I helped him a little with the Lube unit schematic, and he gave me a shout out back then, which really helped the channel. I dont think he has pulled out his spindle yet.
Sorry for all the separate comments, hopefully it's just a good thing and boosts your engagement ;) I'm currently trying to decide if I should pick up a K&T #2 horizontal mill, the owner is selling it for basically nothing. Total cost to me including rigging/shipping will be like 2,000 bucks. I have never used a horizontal before though so I'd love any insight you'd be willing to share from running the Maho in horizontal mode!
CNC Horizontals tend to be the choice for production. The better chip evacuation is a real benefit. It is a bit more challenging to set up and see what is happening. Given most of what I do it pretty small, I am sometimes challenged to get the part up to the spindle with the table at top of travel.
Classic manual horizontals are great for hogging off huge amounts of metal with disc cutters on an arbor. Luke uses his in Horizontal mode all the time.
@@RotarySMP Thanks for the input :) Good luck figuring out the issue with your vertical head BTW. To my ears that sounded more like a bit of metal being thrown around inside the head, maybe a gear tooth chipped? Don't know why that would only happen at max RPM though if that was the case.
@@Trainwreck1123 There is a consensus building that it sounds like a bearing cage.
Check the bearing preload.
Thanks.
Completely unrelated question…. Are those green handled snips Freund? I have job on the whiteboard my angled Wiss ones suck at.
They dont have a brand on them. I bought them from www.aircraft-tool.com/shop
It looks like they no longer sell that model, but under sheet metal tools they have a nice selection.
Maybe Dr. Stefan (Gotteswinter) has some recommendation for the MAHO head-surgery
Good point, I will contact him and ask.
I would consider making 2 different post processors for your CAM software so that you can export gcode as either Horizontal or Vertical format without altering your machine setup
I will do that once I get the axis swap sorted out.
Hey great video. The milling head sadly does not sound good. Maybe try to contact Franz Singer (Werkzeugmaschienen), they usually are more knowledgeable on Deckel machines but also have some Maho parts. I know from some forum posts that they rebuild Deckel heads from time to time. Maybe they have an idea.
Thanks, I figured I will probably end up with Mr Singer. Especially if the integral bearings are damaged.
Would be good if you could somehow isolate the bearings from everything else. I find it unlikely that the main spindle bearings should be gone. It would be good to eliminate everything else if possible before going to that extreme. Seems akin to opening Pandora's Box.😬
I will start by pulling the draw bar, and hoping for a broken belville spring, but that consensus is that it sounds like a broken bearing cage.
I have woodworking cnc machine using gmoccapy. I occasionally mount a router pointing in the y- (as you were doing) to mill tennons in the ends of long pieces. I have swapped my z and y axis, limits etc. as you described in another (copied) configuration. I get no errors and it works very well, but I am using open loop steppers. Your maho uses servos? Could this be the problem?
Yeah, this is a closed loop machine with linear encoder feeback, and the different axis have different PID tuning.
@ I was going to say are the axis motors the same. As they are not, you will need to swap the y and z pid values etc. my point is it does work so it is worth persevering. The reason I haven’t tried G18 is I use ncam (nativecam) for all the canned cycles. This will only work with G17 and gmoccapy using python 2.
@@chrisfairbrother9197 I also never upgraded the mill so it is still on LinuxCNC V2.7. I would need to redo my HAL's to bring it up to V2.9 due to the switch to joints, and it has been a "If it works, dont dick with it" scenario.
@ yes I totally agree. I have 2 hard drives on my machine, one for work using 2.7, and one for testing Qtdragon_hd on 2.10 bookworm.This way I always have a working machine and I can test what is new.
@@chrisfairbrother9197 I actually use a CF card as SSD on the Maho, so it would be really easy to do a drive swap. Good idea.
Hmmm, consider servicing your spindles more often... The grinder one too... If it has grease lubed bearings - service them at least every 5 years... Ain`t no such thing as ``lubed for life`` unless you want to keep tossing good stuff in the bin due to sloth... Lubed for life is like ``sharp for life`` cutter of any sort... It`s the reason why i`m not running my Schaublin 22 mill - that grease is 50yo in a new-old stock machine, and while she may have ran for a few hours somewhere in the past, that is no excuse to run that ``lubricant`` for even a second in the ``current year``...
Stefan just recently posted a vid on him mill service or rather regular maintenance, and sure enough - more people should treat their machines in that manner...
From the sound, it seems like your mill has just entered puberty by dropping some balls... I guess you will have to have ``that talk`` now - tho, the talk will be with a bearing supplier, i`m afraid...
However, i`m not sure how that spindle is designed - you literally might just have a loose nut in the assembly of the spindle(inside the quill)... I seem to recall watching Oxtoolco`s BP video or was it Robin, not sure, but that machine actually had a spindle assembly nut loose, not all the way, but in a few months or so it would have started rattling... So you might kinda be okay after all, but as said, i`m not a maho rep and i have no idea how the spindle design looks like and what it involves, so i can`t really make a call, but that endmill getting fucked speaks of loose bearings or bearing damage, or rather - runout...
Best regards!
Steuss
P.s.
Just seen the last minute - shit man... That is the worse version of the Deckel FP1 integral bearing spindle... Well, it`s an uglier twin essentially... The Deckel could at least theoretically be reground for ``oversized balls`` and restored thusly at least once, thus doubling the life of the quill cartridge... Yikes...
Yeah, you are right Steuss. I pulled the spindle and relubed the bearings on the Schaublin when I got it. I should have done the same for the Maho.
@@RotarySMP I edited the comment, so i`ll reply here... Yeah, i just saw the last minute diagram... Yikes m8... Integral bearings are nice in every way except for the scenario where they fail... Cartridge quills are just a fookin pain in the ass...
@@camillosteuss Yep, that is what I am afraid of.
That noise sounded to me as bearing skip some more lubrication before pulling it all apart.
I have to pull the spindle to lube it, so I we should see then.
very good video and very good boring head
Thanks a lot, I hope I finally get to use that Narex at some point :/
Just turn up the volume on the radio - that was the usual fix for old car noises, maybe it'll work for old CNCs too...
Hi Philip, or a banana in the diff.
I watched again the part of the video where you ran the spindle at different speeds using headphones. I think there are some short squeaking noises at all speeds, not only at the highest speed. To me it sounds like a broken bearing, but I could be completely wrong. If I were you, I'd start with disassembling the "less critical" parts first, like the draw bar mechanism. Maybe you find something in that area. I'd leave disassembling the spindle itself last and only do that if nothing else helps.
I have a Wohlhaupter UPA-3 boring head, witch is the smaller cousin of what you have. It comes with some split sleaves that allow using tools with smaller shank diameter than the 18 mm it nominally takes. I think making such sleeves might be easier than making a boring bar. Also, I suspect that you can buy the sleeves.
Thanks Gabriel, that is pretty much my course of action. Disassemble and hope it is not the bearings, while knowing it probably is :)
Yeah, I also plan to make some sleeves as I have a few 16mm boring bars, but need to also make a dovetail cutter with the DCMT's, so I need to get this tool path working.
G’Day Mark, I’m definitely not an authority, but the fact of that sound manifesting only at high speed has me thinking gearbox. 🤔
Hi Doric, since the gearbox is behind the horizontal spindle, I was listening for it while cutting with the horizontal, but didn't hear anything. The consensus seems to be that it is a bearing cage broken.
i saw that netgrear 8port switch :P
I got a 2.5G one for the basement, so I can connect in the NAS I built, and also use it to connect in my Atem mini pro Iso streaming setup when I do my Patreon livestreams.
@@RotarySMP sweet!
Using a CNC almost seems like cheating, I machined up a mini Flycutter recently to take the next size tip down from the one you are using on my little homemade mill, it had me on edge for most of the milling, but it all came out well in the end.
Nice. I really look forward to getting my Narex boring head in service.
Interesting lathe toolpost. Who makes it?
I am pretty sure Schaublin made that in house. It was the standard tool changer on the early 125-CNC.
It is difficult to guess what's the origin of that clicking noise.
The suggested flushing might give an indication.
Meanwhile fingers X-ed that it will not be too bad.
Thanks, I hope so as well.
Ad libbed nomenclature ftw!
Hmm, that noise is odd that it only manifests at high speed with no artifacts at others. Could it be the quill rack rattling at a harmonic?
That would be best case. Or maybe that tool stud puller? I hope against reason it is.
Hi, awesome video!
I suspect theres something wrong with your chuck, it shouldn't have so bad gripping strength
I think the problem there was I had been sand blasting, and had the air Px up full, and forgot to reset the pressure down to the lathes level, so the tail stock was pushing too hard.
My guess about that bizzare chip is that the feed was too slow.
Thanks for your feedback on that Hans.
That head sounds almoast as bad as the spindle of my EmcoTurn. On that, a few chips got through the labyrinth seal causing damage to the first bearing. That bearing got so hot, that the grease burned up causing the sounds.
I am still in the denial stage of grief for this spindle :(
19:57 Ah, my friend, the failure Pan-and-zoom (or just zoom?).
Yeah, that was the one :/
Wow time flies, it's Dec 1st already. Here comes 2025.
Have you started on your New Year's plans/resolutions yet? oh, also Christmas plans hope those are going well.
Hi Mike, nope, I tend to put such thing off until they become unavoidable :)
first 2BA tap i broke in a long time lol GRRRRR
It is annoying.
Any particular reason for using DCMT inserts, Mark? To my way of thinking DCMT is a poor choice for a boring tool. DCxx and DNxx inserts are generally reserved for external profiling fine details and undercuts. DCMT has only 2 cutting edges per each expensive insert. Narrow point angle is weaker than simpler and cheaper triangular inserts. A good rule of thumb use double sided inserts for heavy / roughing operations and keep the single sided inserts for finishing. Don't know why but may of the home gamer You tubers are selecting these diamond shaped inserts. In industry these would be considered almost specialist tooling, because they are expensive per edge as well as having lower metal removal rates. Make a second bar for TCMT and compare, I think you will then agree with my assessment.
I need to make up another dovetail cutting tool, and DMCT will be the choice for that. I figured if I use the same for my boring bar, I only need to design the tool path once.
Could it be the power draw bar assembly rattling? Do you get the same sound with a tool held in place? Otherwise sounds expensive 😭😭😭
Hi Julia, I hope against reason that is is a rattle in the draw bar. Yes, the sound was the same with or without a tool. It sure does sound like that...💵💵💵
@RotarySMP was clutching at straws there. Maybe running a bit dry? 😳
@@julias-shed There is no way to relube the bearings except disassembly.
@@RotarySMP Ah I guess see if there are any special tools that need to be made?
@@julias-shed There probably will be. I need to stop procrastinating and get into it.
CNC is more work than manual for one off setups, just get rid of the Maho and get a Deckel :)
Yeah, you are not wrong, but if you only have space for one machine, I prefer to have the option of CNC for the complex tool paths.
This is a lot of metal to make a small tool, but that is how cnc does things. The old approach would be to start with a forging.
Good point. Shame I cant really set up for forging here.
Get it apart and tell us the damage we will support you.
Thanks a lot Tony, yeah, that is the next set. Denial and procrastination have been less effective than I hoped :)
I have no knowlege of MAHO gearboxes, but on old Harley gearboxes if they make that semi-random "chik chik chik" noise in one gear only, it usually means the fork alignment is off and when the gears are moved into that one position the position is slightly wrong and something is JUST rubbing with that gear pair.
Was that little tool you ground carbide? I have never seen HSS fracture like that.
That Diamond Carbide Mighty Tough stuff is too brittle, better to stick with Handy Sharp Stuff
Yes, it was carbide. :)
There are no gears in that vertical head, they are behind the horizontal, and are not making unusual noises.
@RotarySMP A single point carbide tool with that small a diameter I would run about 12,000 RPM on my machine. They tend to break too much at lower RPMs in steel.
Sorry I thought the gears were in the head. An old trick is to put a screwdriver handle pressed to your ear like a stethoscope and touch the metal end of the screwdriver on different parts of the head, that might help track it down to see if it is top bearings, bottom bearings or the 90 degree drive gears. Might not be that much helpmif the casting is mega solid but hey every suggestion has the possibility of being useful 😎
@@wizrom3046 Thanks. You what it funny, I whipped up that stethoscope I used in the thumbnail, from some 3D printed parts I designed in 5 min. It actually sort of works. Not great, but it does transmit the sound :)
Unfortunately, there is a sheet metal cover over the casting.
@@RotarySMP haha now I feel like a fool I didnt even look at the thumbnail 😁
I say a loos but as it’s way easier to fix :)
A loos?
Every boring bar is also a fly cutter, in my experience.
Good point.
Well never know it might be something simple
Don’t think it’s a damaged bearing race more sounds like a rattle sound to me
The common opinion is pointing towards a broken bearing cage.
Be sure to exclude the interface between the horizontal part and the head. Any play there may also sound horrible.
You mean loose bolts? They weren't. Otherwise there is just the drive lug.
@ yes, I mean any play on the drive lug.
@@mrtnsnp Good point, I'll measure it.
Or like "just making a tool" becomes a journey...
Hi Michel, Yeah, really I am still trying to finish the lathe tool holders, but need to bore a hole in some...
3:20 rofl
Glad you like that :)
Fun family fact my great great uncle was the first record person to sail around the world alone.
Joshua Slocum, I believe. There was a Slocum involved with Community Boating in Boston in the 70's who thought she was related to Joshua. A mentor.
@ChimeraActual that's him. He was from nova scotia but sailed all over and became an American citizen. He did leave from Boston for the round the world trip.
@@marsniper27 Let's see how far we can hijack this...
I just looked it up, Joshua Left Boston in 1895 and returned to Rhode Island in 1898. There were a few adventures in between, he wrote a book, "Sailing Alone Around the World,".
That was the same era my Nova Scotian grandfather, Captain A. H. Caldwell (Coldwell if you are Canadian) was sailing the New York -- China route in his Bark Hamburg. My grandmother sailed with him once, and hated it, told me harrowing stories. She and the rest of the family then moved to Boston. I wonder if they ever met.
Sailing solo around the world without weather forecasting, means of communication... sucidal. He got rather lucky to be able to tell his story.
@@ChimeraActual definitely a chance if they were both there around the same time. Joshua spent several years based out of sanfransico before going to Massachusetts.
This is perhaps a dumb question, from a non-machinist. Is there a reason that you didn't just bore a hole in your 25mm slug and insert one of your existing commercial boring bars? In effect making an adapter sleeve. ("Because that doesn't make good content" is an acceptable answer.)
Good question Brian. I probably will make a reduction sleeve to use some of my other boring bars, but rigidity goes up with the 4th (? or was that 3rd?) power to diameter, so I would like a 25mm boring bar to take full advantage of the Maho and Narex rigidity for bigger hoes or and longer ones.
@@RotarySMP 4th power
@@RotarySMP Bigger hoes eh 😀
@@briantaylor9266 Thanks.
I have the same VHU 80 boring / facing head. It's a great bit of kit once you get your head around how to use it. They're beautifully made. Mine came in a set with various 25mm brazed carbide boring bars, which I've never used, and various reducing sleeves. It also included all sorts of 25mm 90 degree boring bar adaptors, which enable you to reach inside small holes, etc despite the relatively large size of the head. I'd bought my lathe tooling in job lots, and they included some short 16mm and 25mm CCGT insert boring bars, which I had no use for at the time. When I got the boring head, they were perfect for it.
That sounds to me as if a bearing cage is rattling
Thanks Sam, that seems to be the consensus.
The person who had to write down "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey" on the boring head though... You'd think a machinist knows that.
Hi Alex, yeah I agree, it seems a "Schändung" to take a vibropen to such a tool.
Hi Mark
The milling head sounds quite bad hope its nothing too serious
Hi Luke. Yeah, I am also in the "hope conquers reason" phase of denial about this as well. :)
Hi Luke, my emails from both of my email addresses are being rejected by your server.
@@RotarySMPThey must really not like you:)
Wonder what is going on?
@@LCalleja Yeah, it is weird, as my both addresses work fine with others.
@@RotarySMPIt beats me
Just sent you an email did you get it?
Oh, the horrible Deckel direct bearing design.
Didn't know, Maho used it too.
Yeah, scary.
You really have to check out why your lathe chuck is slipping so much. Either your holding force is just pathetic, or your tailstock is way over pressured.
It was the tailstock Px. I had cranked up the Px to do some sand blasting, and forgot to reset it down for the lathe.
Kids stuff.
???
Half american? America Is a contienent not a country, America is constituded by 35 countries
Very true, and one of Conrads parents is from the americas.
sounds pretty bad
It does
Oh man🙈 i Hope it‘s not the bearings🥹 They tend to be costly on the maho mills. Stefan GTWR explained the Deckel spindels in one of his recent Videos……. If they are damaged grinding would be the only Solution………. singer in germany seems to be the Company doing this on a regular base…….
Hi Christian, yeah, I have a feeling this will end up going that way. I would like to do the disassembly and inspection here, so I can make a video of it, and hopefully earn a little towards the rebuild. :/
Where is This old Tony he can help...
I dont think he has pulled his Maho spindle, but I asked him.