Ups & Downs From Star Trek: Discovery 3.4 - Forget Me Not
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2020
- Seán Ferrick with all the ups and downs from week's episode of Star Trek: Discovery, 'Forget Me Not'.
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Also, everything on Trill in the pool was 100% a follow up, and development, on what we saw in DS9 in Equilibrium. Meeting the previous hosts, and their connection, etc, is perfectly in synch with Dax welcoming Joran in the pool.
Yes i had the same Episode in Mind , but i LOve they continued the Idea
I also agree. Adira Tal Meeting the previous hosts of the symbiot Tal was interesting and I also liked how they had a character that had a Picard uniform. Hopefully Adira Tal will get some memory flashes or knowledge from Picard. That'd be a nice Easter Egg.
Also direct callbacks to the DS9 episodes Facets, where Jadzia meets the previous Dax hosts via the rite of Zhian'tara, and Field of Fire, when Ezri uses the Rite of Emergence to mentally summon forth previous hosts.
The Trill did not say no human and Trill have been joined. They said it's never been successful. Which is 100% accurate to The Host on TNG. It was not successful. Riker almost died carrying Odan.
I was gonna pretty much say the same thing. It's nice that like in Stargate the good parasites have to willingly choose who to bond with. Riker never had a real bond with the one he carried. He just carried it. So, why would he have access to everything? Tal (?) chose to take the parasite out of love for her boyfriend. An act of love and responsibility. In the end she was still only a human, so things would be a bit more difficult to get correct the true first time. Also, Trills go through training and orientations before implantation. No way in the universe that someone picked randomly would be ready to instantly download hundreds of years of life and shrug it off.
@@jeremypage2424 Adira not being able to remember was more the suppression of the traumatic memory of losing Gray. I may be making this up but I thought it was suggested it was the Tal symbiont protecting her
I was going to point this out too. There was no reason to mention Riker and Odan because it wasn't a successful non-Trill joining.
@@Abdulq Yes it was suppression, but I thought that Adira was actively blocking the memories - the tendrils trying to connect with Adira were Tal trying to connect with her but Adira was constantly rejecting them, and it was Michael telling Adira to move forward/accept the pain that allowed them to connect as a symbiont/host.
@@Abdulq your right they both needed time to come to terms with it and if they had flooded her with the memories it would of cause major issues for them both
Nothing unusual about a warm and welcoming culture becoming hostile when they feel their traditions/beliefs are being violated. Happens on Earth all time.
The Trill are extremely conservative about their culture and symbiotes. See when Dax gets transfered to an "unworthy" Trill.
Had the same thought!
Oh true, I totally forgot about that.
Also - Reference is explicitly made to the lack of viable hosts. Are they lying? Or has the "Dark Secret" that 50% of Trill are potential hosts been lost to the mists of time?
Regardless, Gray's comment about the symbiont's trust being key would serve to underpin the point from Equilibrium.
"Totally one of the best thing I've ever seen!" = 1 up
"Pedantic, nitpicky criticism" = 1 down
He also gives two downs for one thing (how the Trill are written). I don't agree 100% though I agree it could have been done better.
He also talks about how he liked the dinner scene but never actually gives it an up, but I think he just forgot to say it. I assume someone else does the editing and tallys up the up/downs.
Improvements in season 3:
Overall more positive tone
Future setting
Saru finally becoming Captain
Burnham’s hair
I'd also say junior officer/bridge crew developments and more screen time to flesh them out, i.e dinner time.
Also the warm lighting in Saru's office, it looked so welcoming and reminded me of TNG, less dark and cold.
@@MovieMagic515 The teal and orange look is so much welcoming
@@obsidianwing Indeed it was really beautiful. I hope this expands to most of the ship.
Burnham’s hair soooo true
"Georgiou takes the wine... brilliant!" I mean, just queen thingz.
Cruz is a phenomenal actor, I hope this role catapults his career.
The Trill’s initial reaction is also pretty understandable:
Initially they are thrilled when they hear a joined Host has returned with a Symbiont. Naturally they’d assume the Host would be a Trill.
As they state, the Symbionts are their shared history. Literally in the universe, they are living witnesses to past events, a Symbiont returning at this point would be momentous.
So when they see Adira first they are taken aback, though the spiritual faction (red) was open minded about it.
But when she doesn’t remember the other names things go sideways as the whole point of the joining to the Trill, keeping their history alive, wasn’t adhered to.
You're treating the Trill scenes like they were all in agreement and kept changing their minds. It was OBVISOUS that there were two schools of thought on the matter. The scene where they were accosted by the laser spear wielding a-holes, then stopped by the guy that wanted to help them made that crystal clear.
Heck, three schools of thought. The leader was the typical centralist making the worst compromise.
@@andromidius Very true!
It was the most star trek episode of disco, I actually really enjoyed it.
Exactly what I thought. I loved the episode.
Detmer is obviously just going to black out and wake up at a Gorn wedding at the end of season.
“AGH! Gorn wedding! GORN WEDDING!!!” 🤣🤣🤣
When the Trill excitedly accepted a returning symbiote and host, they naturally assumed it was a Trill. So seeing a human, with a symbiote, that had no access to the precious memories of the symbiote would have been horrifying hence the extreme opposite reaction when Adira showed up.
Oh my gosh too nitpicky. It was such a good episode. You are calling things forced which aren’t at all and upset about the reactions of the trill when it makes perfect sense that they would be confused and conflicted about how to handle Adira
Agreed
Again a reason why Trek Culture disappoints us weekly with letting the 'Ferret' host.
Agree! Bring back Adam Clearly!
Too much nitpickery here good sir - this episode was amazing - up there with the best of TOS, TNG and DS9
Yes, that good!
The underlining message of this episode that it’s ok to not be ok seemed to hit home so much more this week with everything happening in the world right now.
I liked this Episode too, because they started to show "reality" between people , it not allways happy sunshine between people who work together. Mental Health and strugle to be a good Leader for all. The "Thunderstorm" on the Table .. someone always has a breakdown in state of sadness or in state too much alcohol . Everybody pissed but next day or hours later people go inside themself and say " i'm sorry" and become better humans after all.
The Trill obviously have 3 different reactions because they are different people the one that tried to take the Symbiote disagreed with the women in charge who obviously was in shock with the hole situation and just wanted the whole gone.
And it's not a surprise that they went from excited about the Discovery to kicking them out because it was all shocking to them.
And in the end they accepted Adira because they were fully aware and joined with Tal, so the Trill knew now this was Tal's choice. Previously they were looking at it as Adira having almost kidnapped Talk because they couldn't communicate with Tal. At first they were only caring for their own, Tal. Once Adira truly became Adira Tal, then they recognized the free will of Tal. It all fits with their culture.
"one circuit blows, the entire crew is dead"?
Gilora: Starfleet code requires a second backup?
O'Brien: In case the first backup fails... It's very unlikely, but in a crunch, I wouldn't like to be caught without a second backup!
And I would imagine when just the first back-up fails, the physical shuttlebay door closes for safety’s sake, anyway.
Jordy would have just bypassed the circuit..lol
I was really happy with Detmer's outburst in the dinner scene. As I've been saying a lot on Twitter, I've been hoping the writers were going to go with a depression/PTSD/mental-breakdown storyline for her and this didn't disappoint. I've been through all of that myself and can honestly say it can get really get to you if you're surrounded by people laughing and joking or otherwise having a great time while you're internally screaming and feeling absolutely-miserable. You do end up having outbursts which, to others, may seem pretty demented or weird. I also thought it mirrored the Voyager episode "Latent Image" when the EMH also had a mental breakdown and he storms around the Mess Hall ranting about different selections of food. So, I 100% applaud the writers and Emily Coutts for this scene. I was definitely struggling to hold back the tears when Detmer later went to Hugh and admitted she needed help.
That scene hit me in a similar way. They treated a sensitive topic with dignity.
Solidarity to you.
I really hope we get to see Detmer explore her PTSD, both from all the crap the crew went through because of Control AND from the injuries she sustained during the Battle of the Binary Stars that led to her cybernetic implants.
Yep, being out of time is a BIG deal. Read the book Ship of the Line, which expands on the fate of the USS Bozeman’s crew beyond the few seconds we see Frasier on screen. They were devastated to end up 90 years in the future with no reliable way to go back (they were told that time travel isn’t precise) or even send a message to their loved ones (in that respect, traveling to the past would have been easier), being instantly outdated, and not having a purpose. When Picard offers Troi’s services to the crew, Bateson brushes him off, saying his crew doesn’t need a “counselor” (it’s the first time he’s heard of the concept), just each other. Most of them recover years down the line and adapt, but Bateson’s first officer ends up drowning his sorrows in a bottle after learning that his fiancée went looking for him and was killed by Klingons for it (send home in 10 small boxes). He gets better by the end of the book
@@artembentsionov I’ve read that book and agree it was a very similar situation. I wonder if any of the Discovery crew will look into what happened to their families.
The Trill have quite the track record of having some pretty sketchy/purist standards with the symbionts from DS9. All that 'rejoining' stuff, covering up that business with Joran Dax and just how many Trill can be joined.
A bit odd that they've managed to flip-flop from having so many possible hosts that they hide it to not having enough.
They might have buried it to such an extent that the knowledge was lost to even the leaders.
True to the cover-up. But, psychologically speaking, there some that should not be 'more'. I need to rewatch DS9 Equilibrium. I don't remember Joran's ending but he was a killer should not have been joined and become 'more' killer. Trill are people. They are not all of one absolute mind, be as we saw in this episode and past episodes.
Some people should not be joined.
@@dolphingirl3698 yep, and the Burn might have resulted in lots of knowledge lost, including this tidbit
The reason that the Trill accepted Adira at the end was because they accessed and integrated with the symbiote. At the start, they only knew their name "Tal". Yes, they may have been able to access some of the skills of the previous hots (but we don't know for sure yet), however at the end, they knew all their names, and they identified themselves as "Adira Tal", showing that the blending had been successful (which hadn't previously happened)
Now that they know for sure that a Human and a symbiote can merge as one, of course they'd be happy about that, of course they'd welcome them
They may have experimented previously, and Adira may well be the first successful time that a symbiote was implanted into to a non-Trill. And since symbiotes are rare, they wouldn't of wanted to risk losing symbiotes previously by randomly trying and hoping for the best.
I don't think they that much had experimented with different species hosts, because they had enough potential hosts in their own race. They didn't see the point to danger the symbiote on experiments that they had no need of doing. If I remember correctly in the earlier series it was a great honor to get a symbiote because there were more hosts than symbiotes. Now because of the burn its turn most likely totally the other way around. They have symbiotes but not enough people that would be able to hold one as not all of their species could.
Main reason why they would never want to lose a symbiote is the simple reason that all the knowledge that it had would die with it. Trill's seem to hold most of their historical information in the symbiotes and losing even one might mean some great first hand historical information would be lost. The burn most likely was so devastating to them because they lost big chunks of their own history because all the symbiotes who died. The same time they also lost many potential hosts as the families of those Trills who had a symbiote might have lived on the same starships/stations the symbiote Trill was stationed on.
To them the revelation that a symbiote can successfully bond with a human means their society and culture can be saved because they can rely on other races to carry the symbiotes while their own race repopulates and they might not need other races again or even make them multi species race.
Strangely enough, starship libraries only seem to have access to material that's public domain circa early 21st century.
I don’t get why they couldn’t make their own in-universe fictional content, for this movie night. Even if it’s just something vaguely referencing Captain Proton - maybe with a Voyager actor making a cameo? They could be clever, rather than just falling back on Public Domain so often.
Right?
i liked the episode.
i liked your comment.
@@dgbrownnt I liked both your comments
Giorgio was handed the same popcorn holder that we see in Calypso.
😲😲😲😲😲
We are FINALLY getting to know the bridge crew! The relationships among them is always what gave stakes to any mission. I didn't care when Arium got blasted out of the airlock because I only knew her for half an episode.
LOL. Redlettermedia is going to have a field day with this season 😄😄😄😄 especially with all the 'lets talk about our Emotions' moments 😄
I actually like that Burnham's usual winner of a line "All we have left is our values" gets spit back in her face by the Trill and works very much against them.
Best part of that last scene was seeing stamens and detmer hugging and forgiving each other that was my all time fave part of that episode
regarding the admiral outfit, that outfit was the 24th century. They’re 600 years past that. He was born after that was removed. You can even see one of the previous host has a Picard era uniform!
It had the elements of old school Trek, a good stand alone episode with character development, exploring relationships, and a bit of action. Though the one action scene it was desperately missing was Tilly throat punching Stamets in engineering. Oh, well... maybe next week=8^D
Wasn't the big Trill scandal in an ep of DS9 that ~70% of the world pop was actually compatible with a symbiont, so how was the pop decimated in the burn? Was the number of symbionts decimated or the number of possible hosts?
It’s possible that this comparability has fallen in subsequent centuries. Especially as more trill start joining star fleet. It definitely seems like something because there was definitely several centuries where Tal didn’t seem to have a host
If you remember from that episode, the Trill government was abhorred by the fact that many more Trill than they're selected few where compatible for joining and tried to hide this truth.
Exactly
Possibly both. The Trill government had more Hosts than Symbionts to join them with initially. They made up a compatibility rule to ensure that every Trill wouldn't get a Symbiont, which would have lowered the supply of symbionts.
The joined Trill then joined Starfleet in massive numbers. They didn't say how many Trill were left on the home planet, nor the number of symbionts still viable. When the Burn occurred, I'm willing to bet that the majority of joined Trill died on those Starfleet ships.
The Tal Symbiont had 5 Hosts that were in Starfleet. That Host was not on a Starfleet ship when the Burn happened; one of the few lucky ones to survive that event. I wonder if the Trill government knows of any others who may have survived the Burn in unorthodox ways. Maybe they wouldn't have been so shocked to find a symbiont with a Human host.
More like 50% (at least according to memory alpha). Also, we just dont know how things were going for the Trill yet. We learned 2 episodes after the burn that dilithium was already depleting. For all we know, Trill hosts could have been a similar problem, with the percentage of people capable decreasing. Also, even thou there were 1000yrs ago, 50% of the population physically capable, I think they would still hold mental/emotional capability tests (still dont want a serial killer joining) which after such tramatic events would probably bring down the percentage as well, if it is true that the Trill culture was on the verge of collapse.
Loved this episode!
Slower pace, more character development - it felt very DS9 to me
All I know id that I haven't cried like this for a Trek episode since Odo genuinely smiled for the first time in The Vortex (I've always identified very strongly with Odo, and at the time it first aired I was deep into diagnosed depression.) This episode strikes a chord in a very real way. The crew is finally facing their trauma, and it's painful. The world, and in particular America, has also been dealing with trauma, and it seems like we'll never get to the point where we can heal. As far as the trill goes, they are clearly in a very uncertain place in their society and culture. It only makes sense that they are struggling to get their act together.
Yes, that’s why I loved this episode so much, Ive been sinking into depression for a while now, this episode made me feel like things could be ok. And this episode gave me the Star Trek I’ve been longing for all along.
One little Wilson Cruz bit I liked. During the dinner, addressing Mirror Georgiou by her title. Rather respectful of him, don'tcha think?
I think that the fact that one of your downs last week was actually due to a traumatic event related to the joining of Adira and Tal deserved and Up. It’s completely plausible, especially considering how humans actually process trauma and emotional distress.
Oh, Seán. It was a great episode but I think true Trekkies like yourself will nitpick. As for me, I'm just along for the ride because I'm a newcomer to Star Trek and thoroughly enjoy each episode.
The scenes with the crew were well done and I believe will overflow to future episodes. Yes, they have work to do with finding the Federation but also, they have work to do on themselves. They're going through so much:
- loss of identity
- grief
- culture shock
- anxiety
- depression
- guilt
Detmer's outburst was so necessary and expected. Not only her PTSD but you even see in Season 2 Episode 9 "Project Daedalus", where Detmer is second guessed whilst going through the minefields at the Section 31 headquarters.
So that trauma and anger begins there.
Wilson Cruz is brilliant in this episode. His own trauma and experience and being the guiding light during this episode was a great choice by the writers.
Culber choosing Burnham to go to Trill was for a few reasons. Not only is Burnham's post-traumatic growth addressed, it would help Adira and Culber knows he needs to stay on the ship to help the crew. He sees all the signs of PTSD with the crew and believes he'll be more helpful.
Overall, this episode had me ugly crying, especially during the introduction of the former hosts. Such a powerful scene. I know you didn't like it but I loved it. And, when Adira introduced their names to the Trill, well my mascara and eyeliner was gone. 😭
See you next week!
true trekkie here, dont agree with sean at all. this season so far is the best and its just getting better and better
you for get the burn happened about 100-150 years prior to the season 3, this could have crippled and stranded populations of species all over the galaxy
Yes and no. While the Burn destroyed any ship at warp when it happened, it didn't destroy all ships. And while the supply of dilithium is limited, it isn't impossible to get. If Trill wanted to save the joined Trills, they could have. It would have been difficult, no doubt. But not as impossible as people seem to be making it out to be.
I liked more than I disliked. That being said, I like the crew scenes way more than Burnham scenes. And did you notice one of the previous Tal hosts was a captain wearing a Picard era uniform? Are we going to see captain Tal in Picard season 2!?
That’s why I noticed , it would be epic if the to see the shows crossover
Up: Another self contained episode in the true and loved Trek Style.
Up: The way the Trill "upsidedown" was handled viually.
Up: Michael did not cry much, maybe not at all.
Great stuff.
I generally agree with the ups and downs here. What I was thinking last night was that the Trill half of the episode felt like 90s era writing with the plot devices and creating a quick adversary to propel along the plot. I didn't hate it, but it was the first time I really felt the 90s vibe for plot structure. The shipside stuff was brilliant, though. *THIS* should have been a major aspect of Voyager: the crew feeling the grief of being separated from everything they've ever known, perhaps forever. Discovery is tackling that reality that Voyager rarely touched. So huge thumbs up. Plus I love how Zora revealed herself. Overall I totally enjoy the episode, though it's a bit of a drop compared to the first three.
What i like about this new season it's that pacing is more like old Star Trek, they have clear Story A and Story B also feels more self contained with the episodes even with serialization, it's to much like Andromeda and Michael is still Mary Sue but less than before, so this season for now is actually good
You're HAWT Sean! Thank you Trek Culture and Sean for your videos!
They way I saw it, the Trill never even considered the possibility of the host being a human (or anything other than at least a part Trill Host being) before they met Adira in person. For all they knew it was just not something that could happen. It is reasonable that some will feel uncertain about how safe and proper that situation is, and even more believable that many just haven't it in them to be respectful when faced with the fact all of a sudden.
i had pretty much the same mind , they where blown away , not being able to understand how this could be possibile
I like the Admiral's uniform. It was more militaristic looking than even DS9 uniforms, but that makes sense given how "on the ropes" the remnants of Starfleet are.
That second down is what made no sense.
Burnham is a xeno-anthropologist. Her specialty is literally understanding alien cultures.
What I enjoyed in this episode was it properly started to explore the psychological effects of the crew being stranded. One of the reasons I never really emotionally engaged with Voyager is their isolation never felt real in terms of the effect on the crew. They just behaved like a Starfleet crew (and a pretty dull one). This third season setup for Discovery is similar to Voyager's (a ship stranded far away from federation) but looks like it might actually explore it rather than waste it.
Always like your reviews, Sean. Always fair and (nearly) always agree.
Grey and Adera together at the end, reminds me of the characters on Battlestar Galactica: Caprica Six and Gaius Baltar. Can anyone else see them? Is Grey an evil presence? I can’t wait to find out!
I also didn't like the hole Michael going into the pool thing, but a while after watching the episode I thought about a very simple change they could have done to make that choice make complete sense (I wish they had used it on the episode).
So, Michael is human, so maybe the Trill could not "connect" to a human, but also Michael has been raised in Vulcan and had had mental connections before (and she was also able to initiate a connection to Sarek, even though it was only possible because they already had a connection), so maybe her "mental openness" thanks to her childhood could have been used to explain why *she* had to be the one to go in the pool. She could have just said "I've been raised in Vulcan. I have mentally connected before. I think I can reach her." when she was trying to convince them to let her save Adira and that would be it.
I would have gone with "they trust you(burhman) more than me(trill dude)"
Honestly I found myself wishing that they had kept Burnham on the ship with Saru and sent Culber down to the planet. It could have been more interesting to see him continue to develop his relationship with Adira and have Burnham and Saru trying to figure out how best to help their crew. Rearrange the scenes and it could still work and make it more of a Culber focused episode. I can only think they're setting up for Culber to help Gray given his previous experiences.
Good work Admiral Ferrick by the way great uniform, very much agree with your review, great job.
Nailed it, Seán!
"Star Trek: Enterprise" had Movie Night onboard the ship. The Dinner scene in the Episode of ST:D 3:4 should have gotten an up because Capt. Saru made an effort to think of the crew as well as the ship.. I like that Dr. Kulber is beginning to go the extra mile in helping the crew by being the Ship's Counselor.
Voyager too. Naturally, Paris got to pick, and he chose a black-and-white B-movie about “fish people” or something. Tuvok even said he wasn’t familiar with that species
7:25 That's a bit unfair. I think the Trill had expected the symbiont to be IN a Trill. Given everything we know about Trills these are VERY valid expectations. When they found out that wasn't the case and we get a much different reaction -- That's to be expected. I will agree that the eventual flip BACK to being so welcoming towards the end IS a bit of "Okay, we're out of time and we need a happy ending here. Just make them happy about it".
Also, as much as everyone seems to enjoy Zora, why is no one on the ship, particularly Saru, worried that there seems to be a life forms within the ship that has access to everything. In any other Trek this would be cause for, at bare minimum, concern. Saru basically hand waves it away. And Dr. Culber seems completely undistressed about it. That seems to be a VERY odd reaction.
I am SO excited about Zora.
Bit of context - The whole Captain's Table thing is an actual Royal Navy tradition, and as a result, appears a lot in navy-centric Military Fiction (both terrestrial and space navies - The Horatio Hornblower and Honor Harrington series make explicit mention of it being used as a way to foster camaraderie).
Also serves as a contrast to the end of All Good Things Part 2, when, at the end of 7 seasons of TNG, Picard *finally* joins the rest of the bridge crew for poker night.
Couldn't agree more with these ups and downs. The writers need you on the team to be like..."what????, think of something better"
My fav EP of this season
A bit worried about Suru not seeing a threat from Discoveries Personality change and sphere taking over Discovery. Well it showed that the crew needed to blow steam and come back down to earth.
Tilly’s line reminds me of Jacob Stone from The Librarians and his “Family ain’t easy”
Great video Sean. For me this episode ranked extremely high like I would probably put it as one of my favorite Star Trek episodes I don't know where that puts it but it's definitely in my top 30. I watched it with my wife and one other person and everybody cried. I understand why you gave the things you did a Down but a lot of things are for plot convenience I tend to overlook those things for the simple reason the show has to happen. I know they could have sent somebody with Adara but Michael is the leader of the show she still felt like a background character in this to me which was good. I just loved every moment with Adara and gray was so beautiful I really didn't have but maybe one thing that was weird to be personally was the fact that saroo was not freaked out that the computer just started talking like a regular person. Other than that love this episode.
If you were coming back to star Trek this would be it to enter star Trek again with star trek discovery the way of the future
Glass or transparent aluminum?
For what the shuttle bay?
Far too many downs, I think you missed the point about the Trill. In DS9 Equilibrium it was obvious that they resented the interference of outsiders. The initial reaction to the human blending was obviously part of that fear of the outsider interfering in their sacred practises.
I think meeting the previous hosts being filmed in a 'psychic link' was more practical than having all the cast in the pool. It would have been cold, they might not have all fit in it, lighting and sound would have been a pain.. so a psychic link - gets it done more quickly, plus each of the characters wore the clothes they were comfortable in.
Hi Sean, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this episode. I did like it I found it a little slow, but it filled in the needed space of the direction of the story. I did like the other host and I feel it was great to see the spire join with Discovery making it one.
This is my favorite episode so far. They have been consistently letting the other cast members shine.
ZHORA is taking over Discovery, I loved loved loved The short trek Calypso. It was beautiful.
The disastrous family dinner was great, because it led to Tilly comforting Saru and then Stamets apology to Tilly was gorgeous.
The callback to calypso again with the movie was great.
I’ve started doing these ups and downs as I watch the show lol
I just watched this episode today and after watching all 3 seasons of Picard, I noticed that one of the previous hosts had the starfleet badge that were used during Picard. Not sure if this was caught or not (im sure someone else did)
Ity's not that they forgot Odan and Riker. Odan and Riker were not a stable joining and Riker would have died if they stayed joined long term. Adiras joining was stable, and they were in good health after a full year.
Plus medical technology had to have advanced quite a bit since the 24th century
I really liked this episode^^ Seeing more of the Trill planet was nice. We've never seen the outside of that planet before, except for the caves. The "taking over" of the computer from the sphere data was unexpected. I havent seen the Short Treks, so it was unexpected for me ... Ian Alexander is cute with his blue hair, tho :P
14:49 Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. :-D
The whole end conversation between Detmer & culber?! 😱
I was actually crying like a baby when Adira met the past hosts. 😅
ME TOO!
Were the trill part of the federation? I dont remember they stabilishing that
I was thinking that, might have to go watch the ds9 episode where ezri goes home again... pretty sure they were not federation
so nothing to with the ep but a question, Where are the romulans??? dont they use black hole to power their ships not dilthulm?? (sorry spelling crap)
Given Michael's surprise at the coordinates what if the federation is on the Klingon homeworld?
I'm with the comments here. I LOVED this episode. I've been loving this channel, and you guys are welcome to your opinions, but if these episodes I'm judging on an up/down basis, I'm giving this overly harsh review a DOWN. Discovery is going in a very good direction, I'm actually feeling like this is a Star Trek show I can watch and enjoy. Season 3 so far has been absolutely spectacular.
I thought the dinner scene definitely deserved an up. Amazing character scene. Agree with you on the rapid flip-flopping of the Trill though. Their arc felt very rushed.
11.38 we also had captain archer mentioned!!
In DS9 I thought Trill were worried that if just how many people were compatible with symbiotes, demand would be too high (about 50% could actually host). So what happened to make it so hard to find hosts on Trill, even if they weren't paragons of virtue?
Regarding Grey, I have a theory. Like you say, shard of glass through the abdomen... flesh wound! The symbiont was transferred, but Grey survived, probably in a comatose state. His living consciousness remains with the symbiont, hence he's more than a memory or subconscious personality within the new host . The manifestation on Grey that Adeira sees is his living soul, tied to the symbiont rather than his own body.
You heard it hear first (possibly)!
Wonder if Zora is going to have a permanent humanoid avatar? Also, is she going to be a Data-like character?
Will she get a hologram *and* an android like Lexa Doig in Andromeda?
I think Georgiou is contemplating frying Linus for dinner. It’s not like cannibalism isn’t her thing. I’m surprised she doesn’t zing Saru about eating his people more
Who else would Adira have trusted if not Burnham when in the pool? It was glossed over but unless maybe Guardian Zee jumped in instead, but he admitted he had no idea what was happening and was the best possible barrier between Adira and the other Trill, it kind of could only be Burnham.
I like the planet of the week format. Having an overarching storyline for the season is perfectly fine, but I do prefer when they manage to have smaller stories told within each episode as well (I wish Picard season 1 had managed to this). 🙂🖖
Ok i clearly missed something.. why did they use a shuttle and not beam down?
Incredibly harsh with the downs, may not have been a perfect episode but I think it's the best of the season so far. The Trill were initially excited to see Discovery when they said they had a host and symbiont, it was only when they found out that Adira was human that their attitude changed. This isn't flip-flopping. It's also pretty clear that the two "factions" on Trill have an ideological divide. They've gone from a society where there's immense competition for the privilege of hosting, to one where they can't get enough hosts. That's going to be a massive disruption and clearly not everyone agrees the way forward (or can't let go of the old ways). Fully agree that the attack with laser spears was ludicrous, that's the only down I'd have given it. Culber, Detmer, Saru, Adira and Grey all knocked it out of the park.
We see during the "psychic link" that Adira is afraid of the tendrils that try to attach themselves to her. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say this is an allegory to how she sees the symbiote in the waking world, perhaps scared of linking with it, maybe even not even realizing it, and that is why she ultimately doesn't have access to the memories. The symbiote also accepts her in this scene, meaning it hadn't before, suggesting her fears were preventing this ritual or process.
It's no coincidence Discovery failed to tell the Trill before beaming down what the exact medical problem was. I think the Trill asked her for the names of the symbiotes' past hosts to see if this process had taken place. When they realized it had not, they took that, and the fact that the host was human, and perhaps thought that the symbiote had actually rejected her, that it had been implanted against its will. This would explain their sudden hostility for sure. Only red robe guy thinks that perhaps the symbiote is simply unable to link fully with her, rather than it is intentionally not doing so.
And as others have commented the Trill never approved her as a host, further ensuring they would take a negative view of her at first.
However later she does indeed get off the list of names, which assures the Trill that the symbiote has decided to fully link with her. I imagine in their culture even if they don't approve at that point, the decision is out of their hands and what happens is up to the symbiote, who has made its decision clear (before that point they had no clue what the symbiote wanted).
I do think this or something like this could have been better conveyed in the writing. For example, having the Trill explain that the reason Adira can't access the symbiote's memories is because it has rejected her as a host... thus according to their laws it must be immediately removed. This will hook the audience into wanting to know what the hell is going on with her now. Red robe can suggest that perhaps it simply is unable to fully link due to a problem with human biology, and we can even call back to Riker by mentioning one temporary joining with a human did not have that problem, even with no Trill there to help him post-implantation. Given the uncertainty, Adira's own memory loss (we can say it is due to the trauma of the death of her lover and the implantation), and the fact they did seem to genuinely come with good intentions, the leader realizes she has some wiggle room and can tell them to leave rather than insisting the symbiote be removed. Yellow robes can then take matters into his own hands to try and "save" the symbiote as he thinks it must be rejecting Adira. Then the rest of the episode plays out as it did.
tl;dr I agree it could have been written better, but I don't think it deserved two downs.
The ship with Adira and Gray gets messed up a year ago, while a year ago Burnham crashes into stuff when exiting the wormhole. Coincidence? I hope not. :)
I think this episode is the one that suffered the most from what they skipped doing in the previous 2 seasons. They never gave any characterication to sidecharaders like Dettmer or Orochiken and because of that the dinner szene felt kind of weird and unwarranted. But I think they are on the right track with including more of those szenes and I hope they will add more episodes where they focus on other characters whe are not named Michael Burnam so we get to learn more about those characters and future szenes like that don't feel that strange.
All of his downs were scenes I loved. They made sense to me though I am a Gemini.
On the note of the up for Zora I get it and I really think it deserves it, however, there is a big problem with this. Since I watched Calypso it made a huge plot point to say that Discovery not only has been put in this nebula, but there is no crew there is no one on board and the ship has orders to stay put it makes me really worried. I mean just this new thing makes me really worried about the series and the ship and its crew. If they don't explain this short-trek soon, this might be the end scenes for the show.
I've taken this as a clue that the ship somehow makes it back to the past then has to hide & wait to rejoin the crew in the future the long way round a little bit like the Doctor Who episode "Heaven Sent".
Alright, made it through all the current comments I see no one has been talking about the Michael in the mindscape topic. Though it was not a factor for why she was sent into the pool, how she handled it once there works for me. Have we forgotten that she actually has a bit of experience due to her history with Vulcan mindmelds? It had even been a previous plot point that Michael has a shard of Sarek's katra in her mind.
They need to figure out how to get the spore drive working without a living interface to restore the Commo- I mean the Federation. Without dilithium, there’s no warp travel. Sure, maybe Romulans still do their thing using artificial black holes, but we haven’t seen them post-PIC yet, so who knows? And other methods like quantum slipstream require even rarer materials. And warp 10 is too... salamander-ey for their taste
I really think that 2 out of 4 of the downs are underserved. The fact that the Trill asked Michael to reach Adira in the pool is understandable, yes maybe a little bit forced but Michael was there for us, she is our "narrator point of view", i don't know if is clear what i'm saying, and i don't think is a problem of the scene itself nor of this series director. The problems are in Michael's roles, in her as a tool for the narration and the direction of the season probably cannot change that. Also Gray's death is not bad. Look, ok, all injuries that do not kill you right away are healed in a couple of minutes in star trek. But they had to deal with Trill physiology, something established in old star trek that couldn't be changed. They needed Grey to be dying but alive to explain the emergency transplant of the Tal symbiont. They could have done a more complex death scene, sure, if they gave it more time. The constant interruptions made to let Michael talk to Adira during her time in the symbiont memory were too long, toooo long. Gray's death would have used that time better. THAT is worty a down. but not gray's death imho. I would forgive 1 of the 2 downs for the Trill behaviour too. They are a paradox, they always have been. They are a closed culture, fanatical for their own traditions, part of an union of planets. Their being unstable to me is in-character. It is understandable. The bajorans are similar, really good and rather friendly people with some issues of religious and political fanatism. Man some of them flip like springs and that's fine.
So I generally agree with all of your reviews, Sean, but I have to totally disagree with the arc of the Trill. I think it made total sense. The administrative portion of the government has always very staunch and harsh. But the spiritual leaders who maintain the symbiont pools have been more “human” for lack of a better term. That tracked in this episode. And when Adira was able to recall her names, they saw the error of their ways and realized that they almost lost another symbiont because of their hasty response. I thought all of that was great.
I miss the stronger focus that was put on Easter Eggs and call out to previous lore. I can appreciate that there aren't as many as Lower Decks, but there were still plenty in this episode that weren't hinted at or discussed. Just my two cents.
Adding cheese to Mac
I guess 700ish years on, the Riker incident might be obscure heresay. Especially if a lot of Fed symbiotes died.