Your videos are top notch. No obnoxious intros, no hoopla, just straight up information presented very well. I'll often find your videos when considering purchasing a rifle. Needless to say, you've given valuable perspective on a few, including the model 70. Thanks!
One thing people don't realize is a major reason Winchester had to cut costs in 1964 is because of the Defense Dept's. abrupt cancellation of all (including Winchester's), M-14 contracts the year before. As some people know, the M-14 program had a very bad start at both Winchester and Harrington & Richardson, but by 1963, almost all the problems had been solved and both Winchester and H & R were looking forward to many years of profitable production to recoup their big start-up costs. Obviously, that never happened.
In it`s defense,I must just say,that in 1975,my grandmother bought me a brand new post 64 Mod 70 in 308.With it I have shot everything from steenbuck to eland and not had a moments problem with it,using the nice issued Williams open sights.
One of the most comfortable stocks of all time - the post-64 Model 70 - the high iron sights are on instantly. I have the identical rifle in .308; excellent rifle.
It’s a great video, no doubt. My only complaint is that there’s NO pot smoking like Hickok45 and his Model 70 review/shooting. Ha ha ha ha. Love my Push Feed Model 70 .22-250 Sporter for coyotes and groundhogs. Peace Be To Journey!
Thanks so much for this video. First time I saw a pre-64 Winchester against a post 64 I wondered why anyone would opt for the pre-64?? Until I got my hands on it to put rounds down range. Beauty on the pre-64 goes beyond skin deep. The Rifleman's rifle indeed.
This was an amazing video thank you! I wasn't aware of the relationship between the 1917, the rem 700 and how it influenced the Winchester design in 64. I am a Mauser nut and just picked up a Birmingham parker hale in .270 it seems to have a Santa Barbra commercial receiver with a beautiful rolled over stock, and iron sights with a Burris scope mounted. I would love for you to do a video on the Parker Hale's if you so desire. Your videos and knowledge on all of these great old guns should be preserved!
Thank you peanut3050 - your Parker Hale is best kept secret - one of the finest bolt guns out there - yet priced below what the market value should be - for who knows what reason. Good on you for picking one up!
I have a 1978 Winchester model 70 XTR 30-06. It shoots half inch groups at 100 yards with the old Redfield wide field see through scope set up. I bought it at a pawnshop for next to nothing. So I can tell you from experience that the post 64 rifles are not as bad as you’re making them out to be. Fit and finish is nice, it is a very accurate rifle and operates as it should with no hiccups ever. The pre 64’s were awesome don’t get me wrong but there is nothing wrong with the post 64’s from the late 70’s and early 80’s. From what I’ve read the XTR version came out in 1977. The extra was meant to improve quality control and fit and finish of the rifle. I love mine.
A friend of my dad's had the same rifle. I refinished the stock in 84 and dad glass bedded the barrel and did some trigger work on it. We had some 150gr silver tips laying around so we took it to the range to sight it in. We DID NOT want to give that sucker back. It was a shooter. Three rounds in the same hole damn near at a 100 yards and 5 shot groups 5/8ths or under. I had a pre 64 in 270 that I hunted with that would do the same thing but I never could bring myself to glass bed it,didn't want to ruin the value. That man hunted deer,elk and moose with it until he passed it on to his son who still does. He reloaded 150 and 180 nossler partitions for it and took a lot of game with it. You've got a great rifle and it's a blessing to go in the field with one you can have confidence in.
I just acquired a custom pre 64 in 308 Norma mag, with no serial numbers, just 308 norma stamped on the barrel. It is slightly different than my 63 30 06. Looking for ways to identify manufacture date. Any ideas?
Excellent video and information, thank you so much! I have a pre 64 300 H&H that my grandfather gave me when I started hunting. He always told me it was a valuable rifle. its not pretty, the barrel has patches of worn bluing, the stock has scratches, dings and is losing its finish. However its function is flawless. Its filled countless tags for him as well as several for me. It wouldn't be worth much to someone else but its worth the world to me
Chris my son has two pre 64s 257 Robert's and a 25.06. Both 🍒. He got them from his great grandfather. They both have old scopes. They had to be drilled and taped for scopes. The 300 HH is worth more i think. So you have a gem. Looking to get his first buck this year with one of them.
Thank you for making this and many other very nice videos. Your knowledge of firearms is tremendous. Your personality also Shines through in your videos. You’re very likable person
Man this is a timely video. I've been hunting for a quality, well maintained old rifle for my first hunting rifle so I don't have to borrow from my dad. Couldn't afford a pre-64 Winchester but just today picked up a sporterized '17 Eddystone Enfield. I'm a history geek and this channel is the best.
Really enjoyed this video. Mine is a 1946, in .30-06, wearing a Weaver C-6 glass. One would be hard pressed to find a more beautiful and more perfect rifle than the pre-64’s.
Just found your site. Really enjoyed this video, your enthusiasm and knowledge,I found fascinating. I have subscribed and will be watching many more. Many thanks and well done.
Excellent video, excellent channel. I found it looking for this specific topic. I always had a general idea of the differences. You drove the nail home with the comment about it not being an evolution of firearms, but rather the evolution of manufacturing, machining, etc. I have my fathers post 64 in .30-06. Despite its issues, it will hold a place in my safe, and perhaps in my saddle scabbard on an elk hunt some time.
Hi James - I like the post 64 so much. If it wasn't the Winchester rifle that came after the pre 64 - it would have far better received. I find them to be excellent and the stock particularly well designed as Monte Carlos go. The early versions had sort of campy pressed -in checkering - which I like as well; gives those years a lot of character.
My dad gave me my first rifle when I was 12, I came home, my gun rack was mounted and I had my Ithaca 20 Ga single shot and my Winchester Model 70 in 30.06. He told me it was an "original" model. Had no clue what that meant, but as I recently started researching, it turns out the SN puts it being built in 1961. I want to mount a scope on it (it had a vintage peep sight on it). I did not like shooting it because it is so light and the recoil is a beast, but even with peep sights at 100 yds, this rifle is so accurate.
One thing that struck me on my pre 64 model 70 was the knurling at the scope base mounts. That they would take the machining time and cost to do that on a production rifle. And so much hand fitting work that went into old firearms.
I have a 1947 pre 64 30-06 with a six power fixed weaver scope and tip over scope mounts . I hunt at least one day out of every deer season with it . Great rifle!
Hi Travis. That is a rifle to keep; they hold their value and if Winchester changes/discontinues the 70 again - the pre-64's go up again. Thanks for writing.
Winchester Pre 64 Model 70. Wow !! And in 270. Iam a fan of Jack . You have a great eye for quality craftsmanship. I really enjoy your videos . Thanks for sharing .
Thanks MQA - he was a fine writer and influenced a lot of people in the direction of quality, style and realistic performance - as you know. Thanks for writing.
Mike as always a great video I personally feel that the post 64 winchester got an unjust wrap.they weren't on par with the pre 64 but they were great riflesfully on par with the rem 700 Thanks for posting
After seeing the post 64 model 70 and the Remington 700, I think the Bergara B14 bolt looks just like the Winchester and it’s recoil lug is like the Remington. Interesting combination. Thank you for all your insight, and your longer videos are definitely my favorite!
This brought back sad memories. In 1967, just out of high school, i purchased a pre-64 model 70 in .270 caliber for $100 (used). In 1968, first year in college, not knowing what i had, i sold it for $60 for beer money. I have cried ever since 😢
My 70 was made in1948 in 300 H&H super grade long barrel. Excellent condition with scope and rings from same year. It has wide built in sling swivels. Raised cheek piece checkered walnut with black for-end tip.
You have 2 of the finest. That .308 is as good as it gets for handling - and the .284 cartridge is one of those haunting rounds; I've owned a couple - a Cooper and a Win. 88 - sold them both and the cartridge just kept coming back to my thinking. So I have an old Savage 99 in .284. Great round. And thank you. : )
In 1992, Winchester (actually the Belgian Herstal/FN Group at that point) re-introduced a controlled round feed/fixed ejector Model 70 Classic. It even has the coned breech face, with the cone only going forward to the edge of the extractor groove. It’s worth noting that the Model 70 wasn’t alone in the pre-64/modern production controversy. The Model ‘94 lever action rifles also got the bean counter treatment in 1964.
thanks for the video, just found a pre-64 .270 and am very excited to shoot it (literally found it in a closet at my grandpa's place i just moved into. Place has barely been touched since he passed 23 years ago. Couple shotguns and a nice Beretta Brevet 418 1948 as well)
My goodness Joe - just about everyone dreams of something like that happening. Fantastic! A pre-64 and the Beretta is something as well. I reached in old closets as well and had tremendous good fortune : dusty mops and brooms and a couple shower bars. Not much shooting joy there. Ha! Anyway - good on you and enjoy the guns.
I watch many different gun reviews on you tube. Your content is top notch and broken down so people like my self can easily understand it. Your kind and patient delivery sets you head and shoulders above many other gun content creators. You put a focus on history, craftsmanship, and outstanding quality. Thank you for being you. I recently inherited a 1947 Winchester model 70 in 30:06. The gun was originally purchased by a family member who was a returning P.O.W. As his deer rifle in Frankfort KY. I fired the gun once as a young man, but it looks as new. The quality of the gun speaks for its self. My gun has a Lyman Peep sight that was inleted in to the stock. Was the Lyman sight a factor option? And if so how common are they? I would let you borrow it if you like. God bless you. Jim
Hi Jim - Thank you for your so kind and inspiring words. I'll keep going! Your rifle is the kind everyone wants : a Model 70 of that vintage in such condition is a dream to own. Many owners installed the Lyman Peep - a superb sight. I'm not aware of the factory installing them. Your offer to let me use your rifle is truly touching. I hope to meet you in person one day; yet I feel we know one another already. God Bless you and your family. : )
I've owned 3 post-64 70s (all push feeds): a .243 Carbine, a .30-06 Featherweight, and currently a Lightweight in 7 X 57. In all 3 there is an unsightly gap between the bottom of the magazine and the floor plate. You can see daylight between the two parts. It exists on Rem. 700s and Ruger 77s, too. Is it also present on pre-64 70s? Thanks for all of your videos; very well done!
I love Mauser action rifles. I missed out on buying a Remington rifle that had actions made by Zastava back in the day and the Ruger M77 which came close to a real Mauser. I am really looking hard at the CZ 750 because the Czechs have made Mauser style actions for so long that the CZ 750 is thumping my Marksman Heart for a truly refined Mauser action rifle that will satisfy my soul and trigger finger for a fine 98 Mauser style marksman's rifle.
Outstanding presentation sir. It is sad to see craftsmanship sidelined by desire for more profit facilitated by design to cost production methodologies. While it can provide a lower cost to entry for a consumer it could become a competition to see who can produce the cheapest firearms. I must say that modern manufacturing methods have brought some surprisingly accurate and reliable rifles to market. Pre-64's are wonderful Winchesters.
Model 70. One more thing, two hunting buddies have model 700 Remingtons and I have been present on two separate occasions when their rifles discharged upon releasing the safety. Other than that my model 70 comes up in perfect sight alignment every time, fits me perfectly.
Wow - not good Burt : ( As you know - triggers and safeties have been made for centuries - everyone should be able to get it right. Glad no one was hurt - I hope.
I have owned both. All were accurate except the 30-06 only liked 165 grains in one pre 64. Own 3 pre guns, amazingly all 1955. The 300 H and H is .5 moa. So fun to shoot.
I have a pre 64 Winchester model 70 30-06 when I bought it recently the stock looked like it was redone and super shiny and beautiful. and the action is like butter such a beautiful rifle. The older stuff is so much better made. It costed me $800 but worth every penny it has a old weaver but I’m planning on putting a vortex on it here soon can’t wait to get it out to the range 👍
I have had some idiots, and that's being kind, argue that there is no difference in the pre and post. The scary thing is that their vote counts the same as mine.
Mike, I've had unlearned folks at gun shows here in Texas that try to sell post 64's claiming they are pre 64's and I have tried to convince them they are misleading customers by trying to explain to them the CRF vs the PF action. They just look at me like a calf looking at a new gate.
@@easttexan2933 If they cannot tell the difference between a pre-64 and a post 64 Winchester they have no business trying to sell them period. Sounds like those unlearned folks need some serious education or they just don't know guns. I've never owned a Winchester model 70 and I can even tell the difference.
waterwave, I think it has more to do with just being dishonest when trying to sell the rifle to make more money. Someone probably sold it to them as a pre64 and once they realized their mistake, the cycle repeats itself. I'm sure this is not uncommon in the gun show business.
Liked most of this. The Enfield of U.S. military use was the "P17" in .30-06 the "P14" being the rifles in .303 made for sale to the British. I would like to hear the designers of the trigger, and safety mentioned, they were the real genies at Winchester. I did very much enjoy your economics lesson. Many guys my age (old enough to remember the switch over, and some) wish that Winchester had kept the lux version alongside the new model, but it took one look at the numbers to show how silly that thought was.
I hate to disappoint some pre 64 fans; and I am one of those, but I have to admit that the most accurate rifle I ever owned was a 1976 model 70mag in 300win mag. God I wish I had kept that rifle for it could put 3 shots in the size of your little finger nail at 100yrds all day; but family came first. God Bless to you all.
I had a 1964 model 70 in 300 win mag and it also was a great shooter and the only gun that had shot better was a Browning A bolt that shot 1:4” groups with factor ammo but it did have the Boss break on it which might explain why it did.
I didn't realize until I saw your all your videos that the history of bolt action rifles can pretty much be summed up as the history of the Mauser action! What a feat of engineering that more than a hundred years later it is still the model to copy for everyone. Really enjoy your discussion of these wood and metal beauties. There's something aesthetically pleasing about these sleek rifles that more modern counterparts lack. If you ever have the time, could you discuss the different styles of stocks-- wood ones of course!-- from your collection? Perhaps some of your favourites?
Can't talk bolt fun history, without mentioning the Lee Enfield rifles. Although the majority of bolt guns took a lot from Mauser action, not all did in fact.
functor1, a rifle that is going to be used to kill folks and protect your life at the same time better damn well be perfect when it functions. Hence, the 98 Mauser. I don't shoot PF actions because they invariably don't eject well.
Ahhh. You bring up a sad episode in my gunning history. Dad had a Winchester bolt action that a local perfectionist gunsmith had matched a barrel out of several he tried to the action. A beautiful 30.06. When I turned 14 I was a dedicated deer hunter and my much older mentor had an in with the Winchester area rep. So hunting season was coming up, I had worked all summer and accumulated the grand total of $114. I had a model 94 lever action, a fine rifle but the action was too complicated to strip after a day out in the temperate rainforest. So I wanted a bolt Winchester no question. Hunting season was a month away and my friend could get one wholesale for my $114. My choice was to wait an indeterminate time for one of the old stock featherweight Model 70s or buy the right now 1964 version (and this was 1964). He could get either for the same price! Well my patience being what it is I opted for the 64 model. I still have it but every time I look at it I think that could have been a pre 64 featherweight. Since leaves, pineneedles etc got in the 'free floating' barrel I was introduced to Acra Glass that same year. I also have experienced the bolt when on full safe and sling carried in the brush dropping out of the action. Long odds but it still happened. I have also had a case jam in the chamber after firing that needed a gunsmith to remove. None of those things ever happened in a lifetime of shooting for Dad with the old Winchester and it continued on flawlessly with me and on to my son. So although I have a long long history with my .243 Winchester and wouldn't part with it it just isn't near the same quality. It will shoot I have to say. I handloaded for it and achieved easily 3/4" groups off the bench at 100 yds. But I still look over the fence at the pre 64 with longing! It was sad that the cheapening wasn't even passed on to the buyer at the time. I mounted a Herter's (that ages me!) 4x scope on the rifle back then. QC seemed an issue even then as the horizontal adjustment screw was marked "UP" just like the vertical crosshair adjustment. Take care. Doug
Such an excellent post - truly one of those moments : "the choice." I have to say the 64 model year you chose is still a great rifle and a fine choice. There are people looking for the earliest post-64 models know; their collectibility increases. I'm looking for a pot-64 early model .458 - not easy to find. Anyway, your dad's and your's go together and the scope - well, that's collectible as well. I had to look up Herter's - they sold so many fine things I had no idea about - including the scopes you mentioned. I learn every day. The scope adjustment things is funny - I've had several scopes where the markings are reversed - "Left" makes the point of impact move right etc... I usually buy these with the adjustment screw turned all the way to the max and stopped. The prior owner just kept turning and the point of impact just got worse and worse. They didn't think to go the other way no matter what the "sign" said. Just like life haha. Take care and stay safe!
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Herter's. Waseca, Minn. Mom waited for the Sears and my brother and I drooled waiting for the Herter's catalogs each year. First place I saw Sako and Husquevarna rifles. Died with the 68 gun law.
My Pop had a Winchester Pre 64 Model 70 in 243 with stainless steel Bull Barrel. He regretted letting it go. So did I. It was real heavy is what I remember. 1989 was when he parted with it. Had a fixed 10 power scope on it. My uncle shot a Ground Hog with it at over a quarter mile. Would hold a dime size 3 shot group at 100 yards.
One time I was riding on a school bus heading to a jobsite on Alaska's north slope. Two Grizzley's crossed the road in front of us and then stopped about 50 yards from the road. They proceeded to bounce up and down while swinging their heads, Woofing. They were not happy. I told myself, "I'm glad I'm not out there."
That cut out on the Remington 700 is for stripper clips. You sometimes run into Win Model 70's with that as well. The competition high power shooters back in the day wanted to be able to rapidly reload in competition. This was back when Iron Sights were the norm even in 1000 yard matches.
Fantastic content again. I very much enjoy the FN South Carolina produced winchester m70's, the super grade is fantastic. Not quite in the the leaque of that beautiful 1947 though.
Do you ever go to any firearms related conventions or expos? I'd love to shake your hand and thank you in person for the hours of informative entertainment. Fantastic videos, I really appreciate them.
Hi Rutherford, So nice of you - I would look forward to that as well. I may head to Vegas for the SCI show - I think in late Jan. I'll post if I'm going. Glad you like the channel!
USOG it's my pleasure, your videos have reinforced my desire to become a gunsmith and collector as well as they have provided me with a wealth of knowledge. Thanks again and have a good one 👍
Excellent video, I worked as a gunsmith assistant as a kid, you did a great job have own and shot pre 64 and post, yes there is a big difference, pros and cons...actually I like the newer FN Winchester 70...sorry but there not bad at all....like my 1944 Winchester M1 Garand the best....Shoe
Even though Winchester preferred making guns the “Old Way” modern gun manufacturing evolved and Winchester had to re-examine production methods to compete effectively and retain market share. The retooling necessary to accomplish this began in 1964 and the changes were drastic but thankfully short lived. From 1964~1967 Winchester went through many manufacturing transitions that the receivers were now cast hardened steel replacing a solid block of steel needing many hours of machining. The hand checkering on the wood stocks was gone, replaced by machine pressed designs resulting in more cost savings. The control feed bolts were replaced by a push feed design like the British Enfield model which remains one of the smoothest bolt actions of all time. Some people believe that these Post 64 rifles were second-rate compared to the Pre 64 Winchesters. It is true that the changes resulted in less hands-on craftsmanship, but the modern production methods were also used by Remington, Ruger and Savage arms at the time. The Winchester rifles remained the front runner in accuracy and looks than their competitors. Knocking the post 1964 model’s action and finish has been a popular sport for years, in fact it is a very well-made action, and for some purposes it is better than the pre 1964 design. Winchester did heed the complaints from its customers and in 1968 announced a redesigned rifle and what a superb rifle it was, for these improved Model 70’s had superior bolts and receivers in addition to a reshaped walnut stock with handsome checkering resulting in fine sporting rifles that are beautifully well balanced, accurate and retained the old-world craftsmanship that Winchesters were famous for, and their loyal customers expected. Winchesters have consistently escalated in value in the used gun market and are the most sought after at gun shows and estate sales. Sales of the pre 1964 rifles were never really that great, even in the boom years from 1945~1955 simply because Winchester could not produce these superb rifles fast enough at a competitive cost. Far from being a failure though, the post 1964 rifles outsold the previous model by a considerable margin. From a business standpoint, the only mistake Winchester made was modernizing their factories about twenty years too late.
Admire your thorough understanding and calm, factual presentation style. You mentioned in another video your intention of reviewing the Ruger 77-have you done that? For myself, I want a Winchester model 54 in either .30-06 or .270.
Hello Martin - Yes I think so; I remember reviewing the 77 and the RSI. I hope you find a Model 54 - difficult to find these days but they are around. Best of luck and thanks for the note.
I have a "modern" 70 in a classic pre-64 version and the weapon says that it is made in the USA by Winchester. It is one of the first batches that arrived in Spain. Maybe now FN makes them. I haven't had a chance to see one of those. Thanks again
I have a 1957 M70 in 30-06, one of my birth year Winnies. Looks like the one you show here. Great shooter, especially after I put a limb saver on it. 180 gr packs more punch than I want to endure for more than a few rounds. ;) -The Pattern 14 was a .303 made under contract in the US for Great Britain because they couldn't meet demand with their limited Lee-Enfield mfg capacity. -The US Model of 1917 (aka P17) was the 30-06 version made by Remington, their subsidiary Eddystone & Winchester to augment US arms due to limited Springfield 03 production capacity. I have a sported 03 (a sweet moa shooter) and want an unmolested one as well as a M1917.
I’ve just put a deposit on a CRF mod 70 Classic Super Express in .375 Holland and Holland magnum. Made in New Haven only been zeroed from brand new. Was a hard find in England
Collections bring back fond memories. But we must also realize that some beautiful new rifles are just possibly going to eclipse the history and grandeur of these past. Nothing is so constant as change. There are some newly built rifles that have a story that practically tell themselves. I have worked on some prototype rifles. Go look at The Complete Rifle Book. By the third edition there are some photos of rifles that have a rich heritage that has been honored by new rifles that are incredibly accurate and lovely, and tough! FN and the current suppliers and Workman and Women are actually making a history that would make Jack O’Connor and many others delighted that now are off to the Happy Hunting Grounds. I knew enough of those old famous people to be certain they wanted their legacies to last far into the future! The Model 70 current Rifle is a real Tribute to lasting Quality. Brandon O Connor has allowed many to shoot the now famous Number Two .270. The recent Tribute and Custom Tribute would impress Jack and his wife Eleanor. That Number 2 Model 70 is worth a fortune! But I and others own the commerative Edition. Finally, I know young people that own very recently built Model 70 Featherweights that someday will be precious things stored in modern Treasure Chests. Let us pray that the Circle of Life continues to include wildlife, fine crafted items, and people who appreciate them.
As to the Enfield P14 action. It started as the P13 in 1913 with the intention of replacing the Enfield rifle in 303 British. When WW1 broke out experimentation og the new 284 Enfield cartridge was not completed, and the action was adapted to take the rimmed 303 British cartridge, and renamed the pattern 14.Long story short, production and supply were a problem and so manufacturers were contracted out side of Britain. Remington was one of the manufacturers of pattern 14 rifles. In 1917 when the USA entered the war, Remington built the P17 rifle chambered in 30 06. One of the main differences between the P14/17 action and the Mauser action, is the cocking mechanism. The Mauser cocks on opening the bolt while the Enfield design cocks on closing.
A brief discussion of the Remington Model 721 thrown in before the Model 700 would have been very informative to your subscribers. Excellent video with really interesting facts. I am of the opinion that the "free floating" barrel rage of this day and time is a lot to do about nothing. I've owned several pre64's and I've never had a problem obtaining 1" groups at a 100yds.
You're right about the 721. I used to have them around and felt bad for not having one on the table. I like their spartan appearance and even the bolt is a very clean design. Glad you have a pre-64. Thanks for writing.
Thanks for this video and all the other vids. Keep ‘em coming. Can you possibly do a video comparison between a pre-64 Model 70 and a current production? That would be enormously helpful! I have a pre-64 Winchester 70 in .270 and a 1974 in 30-06. Now I want a Featherweight in 7mm-08 and am thinking of the FN Winchester. Would you be able to do this?
USOG Thank you. That would be great, and I think a lot of other people would be interested too. BTW, I found and bought a Savage 99c after watching your video. Lots of fun, thanks for that too.
USOG Super! I think a lot of people will find that interesting. BTW, your Savage 99 video inspired me to hunt down a 99c in .308. Love it. Lots of fun. Thx
thanks for your video, very informative, I have a question I hope you can answer: I have a Cooey model 71 30-06 but it is missing the bolt. I have read and been told that the Winchester 70 is virtually the same gun. Do you know whether a bolt from the Winchester would fit the Cooey? A bolt for the Cooey is impossible to find. Thanks.
Hi SS - Yes the post-64 bolt will fit; and then have headspace checked for safety. I had a Cooey - also in 30-06 - also missing bolt - the owner hid the bolt in ductwork and then passed away. I found a Winchester bolt here www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/winchester/rifles-win/70-post-64-pf/parts-list-70-pf Good luck
You're welcome. Thanks for the videos. I have 2 721's in 270 and 30/06. Very accurate rifles. I also have pre 64 model 70's as well. Very accurate and well made rifles for sure. The Browning Safari with it's FN Belgian action is also a fantastic rifle. I have a few of them also. I love the older classic rifles. As you stated a lot of the work on those rifle's was hand fitted.
Other thing that happened in 1964 the steel (recepit ?) I remember an old friend telling me when he worked at winchester one man was responsible for making a rifle fron beginning to end pre 64 and after winchester hired new employees for less money .
Great video, just purchased a new model 70 in 375h&h and it looks alot like the older model, with the full length mauser style extractor, made in utah as well - great video, keep them coming ! the new model 70 is just as nicer as the tikka t3x i own id suggest
I agree - the new Model 70 is the one to buy - just overlooked by a market that likes synthetic stocks, removable magazines and smooth bolts without claw extractors - which is a little funny as the moments that matter happen with the bolt closed.
how can you not like the claw extractor! i actually found it a challenge to find a rifle with walnut, mauser style extractor in 375, the only other rifle was the cz550 in the price range that i could find anyway !
I have a 1980 xtr (i bought brand new)in .270, I love it deer hate it. the 700 rem ruined the m70 BUT it still has the great M70 safety which I love same as my new m70 that was made in usa but put together in portugal w/crf that is in 7-08 and featherlight also a great gun. Thanks for putting out great vids
I recently found a very nice 1955 Mod 70 in 30-06 in lightly used condition. I'd give the blueing about 99% and wood is excellent with a little wear for $1195. Just wondering if I should keep as investment or use it. After all, time is marching on and not sure if parts would be available should something breaks. Anyway, great video and like your analysis.
Thank you! I would buy a current production Model 70 Classic - but actually - any of their Model 70s offered in .270 would be perfect IMHO. Thanks for writing.
I watched this with my Springer Spaniels. I just had to get out my pre 64 and my XTR, both in .270 Win and follow along. Now, the dogs are bouncing off the walls.
Great video....I have a post 64 Win. Model 70 stainless steel in 375 H&H and it does have the controlled feed bolt. I wasn't the original purchaser, any Ideas?
Your videos are top notch. No obnoxious intros, no hoopla, just straight up information presented very well. I'll often find your videos when considering purchasing a rifle. Needless to say, you've given valuable perspective on a few, including the model 70. Thanks!
One thing people don't realize is a major reason Winchester had to cut costs in 1964 is because of the Defense Dept's. abrupt cancellation of all (including Winchester's), M-14 contracts the year before. As some people know, the M-14 program had a very bad start at both Winchester and Harrington & Richardson, but by 1963, almost all the problems had been solved and both Winchester and H & R were looking forward to many years of profitable production to recoup their big start-up costs. Obviously, that never happened.
In it`s defense,I must just say,that in 1975,my grandmother bought me a brand new post 64 Mod 70 in 308.With it I have shot everything from steenbuck to eland and not had a moments problem with it,using the nice issued Williams open sights.
One of the most comfortable stocks of all time - the post-64 Model 70 - the high iron sights are on instantly. I have the identical rifle in .308; excellent rifle.
Exactly! You summed the rifle up perfectly,thanks.
I concur. See my long post on this subjedt.
Of all the Winchester Model 70 videos I have ever watched, this one is definitely the best. Great Job Sir.
Hi Rick, I look forward to your next video - such a fine location you have. Good words are like food - they sustain us no? All the best my friend.
USOG Yes Sir they do, Thank You for watching My Videos as well.
It’s a great video, no doubt. My only complaint is that there’s NO pot smoking like Hickok45 and his Model 70 review/shooting. Ha ha ha ha. Love my Push Feed Model 70 .22-250 Sporter for coyotes and groundhogs. Peace Be To Journey!
@@barneygo2010 🤣
You are the Antiques Roadshow of firearms. Excellent series of vids!
Thank you Fast Eddy!
Gotta agree.
Yeah Un Huh cept he looks too much like Tucker Carlson, the Moron of Fox Company. Gosh Fast Eddy, do you run on all fours?
Thanks so much for this video. First time I saw a pre-64 Winchester against a post 64 I wondered why anyone would opt for the pre-64?? Until I got my hands on it to put rounds down range. Beauty on the pre-64 goes beyond skin deep. The Rifleman's rifle indeed.
This was an amazing video thank you! I wasn't aware of the relationship between the 1917, the rem 700 and how it influenced the Winchester design in 64. I am a Mauser nut and just picked up a Birmingham parker hale in .270 it seems to have a Santa Barbra commercial receiver with a beautiful rolled over stock, and iron sights with a Burris scope mounted. I would love for you to do a video on the Parker Hale's if you so desire. Your videos and knowledge on all of these great old guns should be preserved!
Thank you peanut3050 - your Parker Hale is best kept secret - one of the finest bolt guns out there - yet priced below what the market value should be - for who knows what reason. Good on you for picking one up!
I have a 1978 Winchester model 70 XTR 30-06. It shoots half inch groups at 100 yards with the old Redfield wide field see through scope set up. I bought it at a pawnshop for next to nothing. So I can tell you from experience that the post 64 rifles are not as bad as you’re making them out to be. Fit and finish is nice, it is a very accurate rifle and operates as it should with no hiccups ever. The pre 64’s were awesome don’t get me wrong but there is nothing wrong with the post 64’s from the late 70’s and early 80’s. From what I’ve read the XTR version came out in 1977. The extra was meant to improve quality control and fit and finish of the rifle. I love mine.
Excatly!
I’ve have a model 70 XTR featherweight 30 06 since 1982. I also have a pre 64 featherweight 308. They are both good!
A friend of my dad's had the same rifle. I refinished the stock in 84 and dad glass bedded the barrel and did some trigger work on it. We had some 150gr silver tips laying around so we took it to the range to sight it in. We DID NOT want to give that sucker back. It was a shooter. Three rounds in the same hole damn near at a 100 yards and 5 shot groups 5/8ths or under. I had a pre 64 in 270 that I hunted with that would do the same thing but I never could bring myself to glass bed it,didn't want to ruin the value. That man hunted deer,elk and moose with it until he passed it on to his son who still does. He reloaded 150 and 180 nossler partitions for it and took a lot of game with it. You've got a great rifle and it's a blessing to go in the field with one you can have confidence in.
Pre 64 is not produced no more, therefor its more valuable on collecting side, its to risky to bring to hunting if stock got scrached😂
@@TheThridwolf Thanks for stopping by and not adding anything intelligent, or beneficial!
I absolutely love the pre-64's because of its Mauser heritage.
I just acquired a custom pre 64 in 308 Norma mag, with no serial numbers, just 308 norma stamped on the barrel. It is slightly different than my 63 30 06. Looking for ways to identify manufacture date. Any ideas?
Excellent video and information, thank you so much! I have a pre 64 300 H&H that my grandfather gave me when I started hunting. He always told me it was a valuable rifle. its not pretty, the barrel has patches of worn bluing, the stock has scratches, dings and is losing its finish. However its function is flawless. Its filled countless tags for him as well as several for me. It wouldn't be worth much to someone else but its worth the world to me
Chris my son has two pre 64s 257 Robert's and a 25.06. Both 🍒. He got them from his great grandfather. They both have old scopes. They had to be drilled and taped for scopes. The 300 HH is worth more i think. So you have a gem. Looking to get his first buck this year with one of them.
Its a 30.06 not 25
One of your best videos yet! Thanks.
Thank you for making this and many other very nice videos.
Your knowledge of firearms is tremendous. Your personality also Shines through in your videos. You’re very likable person
Thank you KY - your kind words are so meaningful to me. I appreciate that you are here.
Man this is a timely video. I've been hunting for a quality, well maintained old rifle for my first hunting rifle so I don't have to borrow from my dad. Couldn't afford a pre-64 Winchester but just today picked up a sporterized '17 Eddystone Enfield. I'm a history geek and this channel is the best.
Greetings BM - that Enfield is a tank - great buy and they reload so quick and smooth. Appreciate that you watched and sent a note. Good shooting.
Really enjoyed this video. Mine is a 1946, in .30-06, wearing a Weaver C-6 glass. One would be hard pressed to find a more beautiful and more perfect rifle than the pre-64’s.
I have a Winchester 70 in 222 and I love that rifle. Very most beloved one is still the old Husqvarna 1900 though!
Thanks for putting together another excellent comparison video!
Just found your site. Really enjoyed this video, your enthusiasm and knowledge,I found fascinating. I have subscribed and will be watching many more. Many thanks and well done.
Thank you Paul!
Excellent video, excellent channel. I found it looking for this specific topic. I always had a general idea of the differences. You drove the nail home with the comment about it not being an evolution of firearms, but rather the evolution of manufacturing, machining, etc. I have my fathers post 64 in .30-06. Despite its issues, it will hold a place in my safe, and perhaps in my saddle scabbard on an elk hunt some time.
Hi James - I like the post 64 so much. If it wasn't the Winchester rifle that came after the pre 64 - it would have far better received. I find them to be excellent and the stock particularly well designed as Monte Carlos go. The early versions had sort of campy pressed -in checkering - which I like as well; gives those years a lot of character.
My dad gave me my first rifle when I was 12, I came home, my gun rack was mounted and I had my Ithaca 20 Ga single shot and my Winchester Model 70 in 30.06. He told me it was an "original" model. Had no clue what that meant, but as I recently started researching, it turns out the SN puts it being built in 1961. I want to mount a scope on it (it had a vintage peep sight on it). I did not like shooting it because it is so light and the recoil is a beast, but even with peep sights at 100 yds, this rifle is so accurate.
That's one of the best James - good on you and your Dad.
Fine and informative video.
Your love for firearms is so evident, and your unassuming demeanor is very pleasant.
Thank you John.
Subscribed. Very good show. Glad i found this channel. Just bought a model 70 today and was doing some research. This helped. Thank you
Great rifle Dude - you'll like it; can't go wrong with a Model 70 and always a market for them if you decide to switch horses.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns like you i collect rifles lol. Ive wanted the carlos hathcock rifle for quite awhile now and for 375 bucks it was a steal.
Fine video thank you for you time and attention!!!!!!!!!
Thank you!
Wonderful information once again , we all appreciate you and your knowledge very much 👍👍👍👍👍
Looking for a Model 70 in 30-06 and you did a fantastic job of explaining why I should purchase the pre 64 model. Well done and Thank you!
Mark Anderson it took me 8yrs to find one from my birth year 1952, $600, its 95%, they are out there so go get one.
One thing that struck me on my pre 64 model 70 was the knurling at the scope base mounts. That they would take the machining time and cost to do that on a production rifle. And so much hand fitting work that went into old firearms.
Not many people see those details. They made a truly great rifle.
I have a 1947 pre 64 30-06 with a six power fixed weaver scope and tip over scope mounts . I hunt at least one day out of every deer season with it . Great rifle!
Hi Travis. That is a rifle to keep; they hold their value and if Winchester changes/discontinues the 70 again - the pre-64's go up again. Thanks for writing.
Winchester Pre 64 Model 70. Wow !! And in 270. Iam a fan of Jack . You have a great eye for quality craftsmanship. I really enjoy your videos . Thanks for sharing .
Thanks MQA - he was a fine writer and influenced a lot of people in the direction of quality, style and realistic performance - as you know. Thanks for writing.
Mike as always a great video
I personally feel that the post 64 winchester got an unjust wrap.they weren't on par with the pre 64 but they were great riflesfully on par with the rem 700
Thanks for posting
After seeing the post 64 model 70 and the Remington 700, I think the Bergara B14 bolt looks just like the Winchester and it’s recoil lug is like the Remington. Interesting combination. Thank you for all your insight, and your longer videos are definitely my favorite!
Always a good feeling reading from you Joe!
This brought back sad memories. In 1967, just out of high school, i purchased a pre-64 model 70 in .270 caliber for $100 (used). In 1968, first year in college, not knowing what i had, i sold it for $60 for beer money. I have cried ever since 😢
My 70 was made in1948 in 300 H&H super grade long barrel. Excellent condition with scope and rings from same year. It has wide built in sling swivels. Raised cheek piece checkered walnut with black for-end tip.
Hi Bill - you've got a diamond there. I'm sure you know : )
Thanks for another outstanding video! Love a pre 64 model 70. Have a lightweight in .308 and a standard in .284 win. Two of my favorites! Thanks again
You have 2 of the finest. That .308 is as good as it gets for handling - and the .284 cartridge is one of those haunting rounds; I've owned a couple - a Cooper and a Win. 88 - sold them both and the cartridge just kept coming back to my thinking. So I have an old Savage 99 in .284. Great round. And thank you. : )
Also have a 1965 model 100 in .284 Win. Hard to find
In 1992, Winchester (actually the Belgian Herstal/FN Group at that point) re-introduced a controlled round feed/fixed ejector Model 70 Classic. It even has the coned breech face, with the cone only going forward to the edge of the extractor groove.
It’s worth noting that the Model 70 wasn’t alone in the pre-64/modern production controversy. The Model ‘94 lever action rifles also got the bean counter treatment in 1964.
Thank you!
very nice Pre 64 270. The original sling hardware was replaced as well. Fine rifle for sure. Thanks for the video.
Thanks Tom - I miss the details sometimes. Sorry.
Thank you for your quick response you are a gentleman.
More great information. Thanks!
Rick - you're as constant as the sun; thanks as always.
Good video Sir. Thanks for the video and sharing your knowledge and your rifles .
Glad to be of service.
18 minutes of USOG? Sign me up!
: ) I thought maybe I talk too much but then there is so much to tell. Glad you're here.
thanks for the video, just found a pre-64 .270 and am very excited to shoot it (literally found it in a closet at my grandpa's place i just moved into. Place has barely been touched since he passed 23 years ago. Couple shotguns and a nice Beretta Brevet 418 1948 as well)
My goodness Joe - just about everyone dreams of something like that happening. Fantastic! A pre-64 and the Beretta is something as well. I reached in old closets as well and had tremendous good fortune : dusty mops and brooms and a couple shower bars. Not much shooting joy there. Ha! Anyway - good on you and enjoy the guns.
I watch many different gun reviews on you tube. Your content is top notch and broken down so people like my self can easily understand it. Your kind and patient delivery sets you head and shoulders above many other gun content creators. You put a focus on history, craftsmanship, and outstanding quality. Thank you for being you.
I recently inherited a 1947 Winchester model 70 in 30:06. The gun was originally purchased by a family member who was a returning P.O.W. As his deer rifle in Frankfort KY. I fired the gun once as a young man, but it looks as new. The quality of the gun speaks for its self. My gun has a Lyman Peep sight that was inleted in to the stock. Was the Lyman sight a factor option? And if so how common are they?
I would let you borrow it if you like.
God bless you.
Jim
Hi Jim - Thank you for your so kind and inspiring words. I'll keep going!
Your rifle is the kind everyone wants : a Model 70 of that vintage in such condition is a dream to own. Many owners installed the Lyman Peep - a superb sight. I'm not aware of the factory installing them. Your offer to let me use your rifle is truly touching. I hope to meet you in person one day; yet I feel we know one another already. God Bless you and your family. : )
They did come with a factory Lyman peep sight I have one on my 1955 pre64 in 30-06 and it was an option you could get at that time.
I've owned 3 post-64 70s (all push feeds): a .243 Carbine, a .30-06 Featherweight, and currently a Lightweight in 7 X 57. In all 3 there is an unsightly gap between the bottom of the magazine and the floor plate. You can see daylight between the two parts. It exists on Rem. 700s and Ruger 77s, too. Is it also present on pre-64 70s? Thanks for all of your videos; very well done!
Thank you for the video sir enjoyed watching
Thanks Weston!
I love Mauser action rifles. I missed out on buying a Remington rifle that had actions made by Zastava back in the day and the Ruger M77 which came close to a real Mauser. I am really looking hard at the CZ 750 because the Czechs have made Mauser style actions for so long that the CZ 750 is thumping my Marksman Heart for a truly refined Mauser action rifle that will satisfy my soul and trigger finger for a fine 98 Mauser style marksman's rifle.
The Master's Peace. Truth in your perspective and presentation. Thank You.
Belted Brass
Thank you 🙏
Outstanding presentation sir. It is sad to see craftsmanship sidelined by desire for more profit facilitated by design to cost production methodologies. While it can provide a lower cost to entry for a consumer it could become a competition to see who can produce the cheapest firearms. I must say that modern manufacturing methods have brought some surprisingly accurate and reliable rifles to market. Pre-64's are wonderful Winchesters.
Love my Post-64 model 70s. ± 6 or 7 counting my sears 53 30-06s.
Great channel Mike. Be encouraged 👍🏻
Thank you John.
Thank you for your video. I dream of getting one of these rifles some day.
Just found one at a garage sale
Thanks for a great video, I own a pre 64 Winchester .300 H&H, for me its a treasure. No comparison to post.
Thanks you so much - great rifle to own!
I also have a pre 64 300 H&H that my grandfather gave me. It is by far my most prized possession! Wouldn't sell it for anything
Model 70. One more thing, two hunting buddies have model 700 Remingtons and I have been present on two separate occasions when their rifles discharged upon releasing the safety. Other than that my model 70 comes up in perfect sight alignment every time, fits me perfectly.
Wow - not good Burt : ( As you know - triggers and safeties have been made for centuries - everyone should be able to get it right. Glad no one was hurt - I hope.
I have owned both. All were accurate except the 30-06 only liked 165 grains in one pre 64. Own 3 pre guns, amazingly all 1955. The 300 H and H is .5 moa.
So fun to shoot.
You're a lucky man Wallace. It's not easy to find the .300 H&H as you know - good on you.
I have a pre 64 Winchester model 70 30-06 when I bought it recently the stock looked like it was redone and super shiny and beautiful. and the action is like butter such a beautiful rifle. The older stuff is so much better made. It costed me $800 but worth every penny it has a old weaver but I’m planning on putting a vortex on it here soon can’t wait to get it out to the range 👍
I have had some idiots, and that's being kind, argue that there is no difference in the pre and post. The scary thing is that their vote counts the same as mine.
Hahahaha Mike! That is so funny - both the rifle and the vote comment. Well, they have much to learn - but that is okay; things can only get better.
Mike, I've had unlearned folks at gun shows here in Texas that try to sell post 64's claiming they are pre 64's and I have tried to convince them they are misleading customers by trying to explain to them the CRF vs the PF action. They just look at me like a calf looking at a new gate.
Ignorance, some of it willful, abounds in the firearms world. Sad but what you say is totally true.
@@easttexan2933 If they cannot tell the difference between a pre-64 and a post 64 Winchester they have no business trying to sell them period. Sounds like those unlearned folks need some serious education or they just don't know guns. I've never owned a Winchester model 70 and I can even tell the difference.
waterwave, I think it has more to do with just being dishonest when trying to sell the rifle to make more money. Someone probably sold it to them as a pre64 and once they realized their mistake, the cycle repeats itself. I'm sure this is not uncommon in the gun show business.
Liked most of this. The Enfield of U.S. military use was the "P17" in .30-06 the "P14" being the rifles in .303 made for sale to the British. I would like to hear the designers of the trigger, and safety mentioned, they were the real genies at Winchester.
I did very much enjoy your economics lesson. Many guys my age (old enough to remember the switch over, and some) wish that Winchester had kept the lux version alongside the new model, but it took one look at the numbers to show how silly that thought was.
I hate to disappoint some pre 64 fans; and I am one of those, but I have to admit that the most accurate rifle I ever owned was a 1976 model 70mag in 300win mag. God I wish I had kept that rifle for it could put 3 shots in the size of your little finger nail at 100yrds all day; but family came first. God Bless to you all.
Hi Gary - I think a lot of people had and have great experiences with the post 64 - I hope you get one again; or maybe you have already. God Bless.
I had a 1964 model 70 in 300 win mag and it also was a great shooter and the only gun that had shot better was a Browning A bolt that shot 1:4” groups with factor ammo but it did have the Boss break on it which might explain why it did.
I didn't realize until I saw your all your videos that the history of bolt action rifles can pretty much be summed up as the history of the Mauser action! What a feat of engineering that more than a hundred years later it is still the model to copy for everyone. Really enjoy your discussion of these wood and metal beauties. There's something aesthetically pleasing about these sleek rifles that more modern counterparts lack. If you ever have the time, could you discuss the different styles of stocks-- wood ones of course!-- from your collection? Perhaps some of your favourites?
You're right about the Mauser - a towering achievement ; your idea about stocks is excellent! Will do. Thanks!
Can't talk bolt fun history, without mentioning the Lee Enfield rifles. Although the majority of bolt guns took a lot from Mauser action, not all did in fact.
functor1, a rifle that is going to be used to kill folks and protect your life at the same time better damn well be perfect when it functions. Hence, the 98 Mauser. I don't shoot PF actions because they invariably don't eject well.
does the vetterli not count? or the odd post US civil war experimental 58 cal bolt actions?
Ahhh. You bring up a sad episode in my gunning history. Dad had a Winchester bolt action that a local perfectionist gunsmith had matched a barrel out of several he tried to the action. A beautiful 30.06. When I turned 14 I was a dedicated deer hunter and my much older mentor had an in with the Winchester area rep. So hunting season was coming up, I had worked all summer and accumulated the grand total of $114. I had a model 94 lever action, a fine rifle but the action was too complicated to strip after a day out in the temperate rainforest. So I wanted a bolt Winchester no question. Hunting season was a month away and my friend could get one wholesale for my $114. My choice was to wait an indeterminate time for one of the old stock featherweight Model 70s or buy the right now 1964 version (and this was 1964). He could get either for the same price! Well my patience being what it is I opted for the 64 model. I still have it but every time I look at it I think that could have been a pre 64 featherweight. Since leaves, pineneedles etc got in the 'free floating' barrel I was introduced to Acra Glass that same year. I also have experienced the bolt when on full safe and sling carried in the brush dropping out of the action. Long odds but it still happened. I have also had a case jam in the chamber after firing that needed a gunsmith to remove. None of those things ever happened in a lifetime of shooting for Dad with the old Winchester and it continued on flawlessly with me and on to my son. So although I have a long long history with my .243 Winchester and wouldn't part with it it just isn't near the same quality. It will shoot I have to say. I handloaded for it and achieved easily 3/4" groups off the bench at 100 yds. But I still look over the fence at the pre 64 with longing! It was sad that the cheapening wasn't even passed on to the buyer at the time. I mounted a Herter's (that ages me!) 4x scope on the rifle back then. QC seemed an issue even then as the horizontal adjustment screw was marked "UP" just like the vertical crosshair adjustment. Take care. Doug
Such an excellent post - truly one of those moments : "the choice." I have to say the 64 model year you chose is still a great rifle and a fine choice. There are people looking for the earliest post-64 models know; their collectibility increases. I'm looking for a pot-64 early model .458 - not easy to find. Anyway, your dad's and your's go together and the scope - well, that's collectible as well. I had to look up Herter's - they sold so many fine things I had no idea about - including the scopes you mentioned. I learn every day. The scope adjustment things is funny - I've had several scopes where the markings are reversed - "Left" makes the point of impact move right etc... I usually buy these with the adjustment screw turned all the way to the max and stopped. The prior owner just kept turning and the point of impact just got worse and worse. They didn't think to go the other way no matter what the "sign" said. Just like life haha.
Take care and stay safe!
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Herter's. Waseca, Minn. Mom waited for the Sears and my brother and I drooled waiting for the Herter's catalogs each year. First place I saw Sako and Husquevarna rifles. Died with the 68 gun law.
My Pop had a Winchester Pre 64 Model 70 in 243 with stainless steel Bull Barrel. He regretted letting it go. So did I. It was real heavy is what I remember. 1989 was when he parted with it. Had a fixed 10 power scope on it. My uncle shot a Ground Hog with it at over a quarter mile. Would hold a dime size 3 shot group at 100 yards.
❤very informative and well said many thanks for your knowledge ❤
I have a 70’s model 70 that has the Monte Carlo stock. Chambered in 7mm mag. I love it
You bet - can't go wrong with those.
that was very informational, thank you.
You're most welcome William!
That 300 H&H is probably still the best magnum hunting round ever designed. Very efficient.
I like it too.
Still using mine. Chronograph 165 at 3250.
Thanks for such a great video.
Thanks Sean!
I don’t know who this guy is but I love this channel!
Hello HammerK99 - Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm glad you're here. I wish you all the best, Mike
One time I was riding on a school bus heading to a jobsite on Alaska's north slope. Two Grizzley's crossed the road in front of us and then stopped about 50 yards from the road. They proceeded to bounce up and down while swinging their heads, Woofing. They were not happy. I told myself, "I'm glad I'm not out there."
I can visualize that! Good bus.
The cutout under the scope ring on the Enfield is for striper clips. A fast way to load the mag.
Thanks Steve! Now...to find the clips. I'm sure they are around somewhere.
I have my Grandpas pre '64 Model 70 .30-06 and Model 94 30-30. Thanks for the video, very interesting.
Hi Steve - you have 2 of the best. Your grandpa must have known.
Don't ever sell them :)
John Doe No sir. My coworker already casually mentioned he'd like a shot at buying them. I plan on passing them down to my boys one day.
That cut out on the Remington 700 is for stripper clips. You sometimes run into Win Model 70's with that as well. The competition high power shooters back in the day wanted to be able to rapidly reload in competition. This was back when Iron Sights were the norm even in 1000 yard matches.
Excellent information! Thank you!
Thank you for sharing your research
Most welcome Michael!
Fantastic content again. I very much enjoy the FN South Carolina produced winchester m70's, the super grade is fantastic. Not quite in the the leaque of that beautiful 1947 though.
You're so right - a friend has a super grade in 25-06 - the wood looks exhibition to me and out of that rifle the bullets have eyes.
Sorry, I think the Model 70 classic is a better designed rifle than the pre-64, for a number of reasons.
Do you ever go to any firearms related conventions or expos? I'd love to shake your hand and thank you in person for the hours of informative entertainment. Fantastic videos, I really appreciate them.
Hi Rutherford, So nice of you - I would look forward to that as well. I may head to Vegas for the SCI show - I think in late Jan. I'll post if I'm going. Glad you like the channel!
USOG it's my pleasure, your videos have reinforced my desire to become a gunsmith and collector as well as they have provided me with a wealth of knowledge. Thanks again and have a good one 👍
Excellent video, I worked as a gunsmith assistant as a kid, you did a great job have own and shot pre 64 and post, yes there is a big difference, pros and cons...actually I like the newer FN Winchester 70...sorry but there not bad at all....like my 1944 Winchester M1 Garand the best....Shoe
Hi Robert - I agree - the FN Winchester is excellent. Thanks for thew note.
Even though Winchester preferred making guns the “Old Way” modern gun manufacturing evolved and Winchester had to re-examine production methods to compete effectively and retain market share. The retooling necessary to accomplish this began in 1964 and the changes were drastic but thankfully short lived. From 1964~1967 Winchester went through many manufacturing transitions that the receivers were now cast hardened steel replacing a solid block of steel needing many hours of machining. The hand checkering on the wood stocks was gone, replaced by machine pressed designs resulting in more cost savings. The control feed bolts were replaced by a push feed design like the British Enfield model which remains one of the smoothest bolt actions of all time.
Some people believe that these Post 64 rifles were second-rate compared to the Pre 64 Winchesters. It is true that the changes resulted in less hands-on craftsmanship, but the modern production methods were also used by Remington, Ruger and Savage arms at the time. The Winchester rifles remained the front runner in accuracy and looks than their competitors.
Knocking the post 1964 model’s action and finish has been a popular sport for years, in fact it is a very well-made action, and for some purposes it is better than the pre 1964 design. Winchester did heed the complaints from its customers and in 1968 announced a redesigned rifle and what a superb rifle it was, for these improved Model 70’s had superior bolts and receivers in addition to a reshaped walnut stock with handsome checkering resulting in fine sporting rifles that are beautifully well balanced, accurate and retained the old-world craftsmanship that Winchesters were famous for, and their loyal customers expected. Winchesters have consistently escalated in value in the used gun market and are the most sought after at gun shows and estate sales.
Sales of the pre 1964 rifles were never really that great, even in the boom years from 1945~1955 simply because Winchester could not produce these superb rifles fast enough at a competitive cost. Far from being a failure though, the post 1964 rifles outsold the previous model by a considerable margin. From a business standpoint, the only mistake Winchester made was modernizing their factories about twenty years too late.
Great post!
Admire your thorough understanding and calm, factual presentation style. You mentioned in another video your intention of reviewing the Ruger 77-have you done that? For myself, I want a Winchester model 54 in either .30-06 or .270.
Hello Martin - Yes I think so; I remember reviewing the 77 and the RSI. I hope you find a Model 54 - difficult to find these days but they are around. Best of luck and thanks for the note.
I have a "modern" 70 in a classic pre-64 version and the weapon says that it is made in the USA by Winchester. It is one of the first batches that arrived in Spain. Maybe now FN makes them. I haven't had a chance to see one of those.
Thanks again
Excellent rifle by any measure.
I have a 1957 M70 in 30-06, one of my birth year Winnies. Looks like the one you show here. Great shooter, especially after I put a limb saver on it. 180 gr packs more punch than I want to endure for more than a few rounds. ;)
-The Pattern 14 was a .303 made under contract in the US for Great Britain because they couldn't meet demand with their limited Lee-Enfield mfg capacity.
-The US Model of 1917 (aka P17) was the 30-06 version made by Remington, their subsidiary Eddystone & Winchester to augment US arms due to limited Springfield 03 production capacity.
I have a sported 03 (a sweet moa shooter) and want an unmolested one as well as a M1917.
Great vintage Model 70 Hayseed - they don't get any better.
I’ve just put a deposit on a CRF mod 70 Classic Super Express in .375 Holland and Holland magnum. Made in New Haven only been zeroed from brand new. Was a hard find in England
Yes, they came drilled and tapped for a scope. Some very early models didn't come drilled.
Collections bring back fond memories. But we must also realize that some beautiful new rifles are just possibly going to eclipse the history and grandeur of these past. Nothing is so constant as change. There are some newly built rifles that have a story that practically tell themselves. I have worked on some prototype rifles. Go look at The Complete Rifle Book. By the third edition there are some photos of rifles that have a rich heritage that has been honored by new rifles that are incredibly accurate and lovely, and tough! FN and the current suppliers and Workman and Women are actually making a history that would make Jack O’Connor and many others delighted that now are off to the Happy Hunting Grounds. I knew enough of those old famous people to be certain they wanted their legacies to last far into the future! The Model 70 current Rifle is a real Tribute to lasting Quality. Brandon O Connor has allowed many to shoot the now famous Number Two .270. The recent Tribute and Custom Tribute would impress Jack and his wife Eleanor. That Number 2 Model 70 is worth a fortune! But
I and others own the commerative Edition. Finally, I know young people that own very recently built Model 70 Featherweights that someday will be precious things stored in modern Treasure Chests. Let us pray that the Circle of Life continues to include wildlife, fine crafted items, and people who appreciate them.
Hi David - poetic and wise, experienced and true - you write well my friend. The circle never ends.
As to the Enfield P14 action. It started as the P13 in 1913 with the intention of replacing the Enfield rifle in 303 British. When WW1 broke out experimentation og the new 284 Enfield cartridge was not completed, and the action was adapted to take the rimmed 303 British cartridge, and renamed the pattern 14.Long story short, production and supply were a problem and so manufacturers were contracted out side of Britain. Remington was one of the manufacturers of pattern 14 rifles. In 1917 when the USA entered the war, Remington built the P17 rifle chambered in 30 06.
One of the main differences between the P14/17 action and the Mauser action, is the cocking mechanism. The Mauser cocks on opening the bolt while the Enfield design cocks on closing.
A brief discussion of the Remington Model 721 thrown in before the Model 700 would have been very informative to your subscribers. Excellent video with really interesting facts. I am of the opinion that the "free floating" barrel rage of this day and time is a lot to do about nothing. I've owned several pre64's and I've never had a problem obtaining 1" groups at a 100yds.
You're right about the 721. I used to have them around and felt bad for not having one on the table. I like their spartan appearance and even the bolt is a very clean design. Glad you have a pre-64. Thanks for writing.
I was lucky enough to.knherit my grandfathers Model 70 243. Purch as set new in 1968... its a post 64.
Its a beautiful rifle.
That is a beautiful rifle - and a great cal.
great video, thanks
I just got a 1971 mod 70 in 30-06. They have a .270 also. I don't know the year. I guess I need to check it out too.
Thanks for this video and all the other vids. Keep ‘em coming.
Can you possibly do a video comparison between a pre-64 Model 70 and a current production? That would be enormously helpful!
I have a pre-64 Winchester 70 in .270 and a 1974 in 30-06.
Now I want a Featherweight in 7mm-08 and am thinking of the FN Winchester.
Would you be able to do this?
Hi John, I'm waiting for my current production Alaskan in 30-06. When it arrives I'll do a full comparison. Thanks for the suggestion.
USOG Thank you. That would be great, and I think a lot of other people would be interested too.
BTW, I found and bought a Savage 99c after watching your video. Lots of fun, thanks for that too.
USOG Super! I think a lot of people will find that interesting.
BTW, your Savage 99 video inspired me to hunt down a 99c in .308. Love it. Lots of fun. Thx
thanks for your video, very informative, I have a question I hope you can answer: I have a Cooey model 71 30-06 but it is missing the bolt. I have read and been told that the Winchester 70 is virtually the same gun. Do you know whether a bolt from the Winchester would fit the Cooey? A bolt for the Cooey is impossible to find. Thanks.
Hi SS - Yes the post-64 bolt will fit; and then have headspace checked for safety. I had a Cooey - also in 30-06 - also missing bolt - the owner hid the bolt in ductwork and then passed away. I found a Winchester bolt here www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/winchester/rifles-win/70-post-64-pf/parts-list-70-pf
Good luck
The Remington 721 came out before the 700 and competed directly with the Winchester 70. The 721 came out after the model 30 in 1948.
Thanks for writing Jason. I like the 721 - just came across one the other day in fine condition. Very clean design and stock.
You're welcome. Thanks for the videos. I have 2 721's in 270 and 30/06. Very accurate rifles. I also have pre 64 model 70's as well. Very accurate and well made rifles for sure. The Browning Safari with it's FN Belgian action is also a fantastic rifle. I have a few of them also. I love the older classic rifles. As you stated a lot of the work on those rifle's was hand fitted.
My Mauser fn 30-06 was built by my friend. Hand made walnut stock. Extremely accurate and very powerful of course.
Wish I could see it.
About as powerful as every other 30-06 in existence. No more, no less.
The square cut out is for clip feed rounds
Other thing that happened in 1964 the steel (recepit ?) I remember an old friend telling me when he worked at winchester one man was responsible for making a rifle fron beginning to end pre 64 and after winchester hired new employees for less money .
Great video, just purchased a new model 70 in 375h&h and it looks alot like the older model, with the full length mauser style extractor, made in utah as well - great video, keep them coming !
the new model 70 is just as nicer as the tikka t3x i own id suggest
I agree - the new Model 70 is the one to buy - just overlooked by a market that likes synthetic stocks, removable magazines and smooth bolts without claw extractors - which is a little funny as the moments that matter happen with the bolt closed.
how can you not like the claw extractor! i actually found it a challenge to find a rifle with walnut, mauser style extractor in 375, the only other rifle was the cz550 in the price range that i could find anyway !
Browning HQ is in Utah. Model 70's were never made there. Ever.
I have a 1980 xtr (i bought brand new)in .270, I love it deer hate it. the 700 rem ruined the m70 BUT it still has the great M70 safety which I love same as my new m70 that was made in usa but put together in portugal w/crf that is in 7-08 and featherlight also a great gun. Thanks for putting out great vids
Hi Jon - I like your M70 a lot. Actually I have 2! Such great rifles - and you're right - that safety - superb. Glad the vids are okay.
Great job thank you
Thank you Scott!
I like a floor plate on my gun's. it makes it nice to unload the gun.
I had a Remington 700 SS 7mm mag the trigger issue was not good in fact it would fire when you touched the safety.
id like to see a modern comparison where they have gotten back to the controlled round feed in the past few years
I recently found a very nice 1955 Mod 70 in 30-06 in lightly used condition. I'd give the blueing about 99% and wood is excellent with a little wear for $1195. Just wondering if I should keep as investment or use it. After all, time is marching on and not sure if parts would be available should something breaks. Anyway, great video and like your analysis.
I would use the rifle. We live once.
I loved your video sir, but I still can't decide which one to purchase. I will be moving to Montana and I desire a .270.
Thank you! I would buy a current production Model 70 Classic - but actually - any of their Model 70s offered in .270 would be perfect IMHO. Thanks for writing.
USOG do you have any issues with the first round in the pre-64 300 H&H feeding smoothly?
I watched this with my Springer Spaniels. I just had to get out my pre 64 and my XTR, both in .270 Win and follow along. Now, the dogs are bouncing off the walls.
I have a 1949 that is tapped and has flat blade set screws in the holes. I just installed Burris scope mount and rings on with no machining.
A better rifle doesn't exist. Different yes - but better : no.
Great video....I have a post 64 Win. Model 70 stainless steel in 375 H&H and it does have the controlled feed bolt. I wasn't the original purchaser, any Ideas?
Great rifle to keep. That's the re-released pre 64 known as the classis. Has everything one would want. Maybe yours even has sights. Cheers!