Let's Talk About Rebirth's Ending.... Ft. Maximilian Dood *SPOILERS*
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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With Rebirth completed, it's time to figure out what the hell just happened. And thankfully, I have some help when @Maximilian_Dood hops in call to give me the low down.
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GAME: Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
AUTHOR: Square Enix
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth is an action role-playing game developed and published by Square Enix. It is a sequel to Final Fantasy VII Remake (2020) and the second in a planned trilogy of games remaking the 1997 PlayStation game Final Fantasy VII. Like its predecessor, the gameplay combines real-time action with strategic and role-playing elements. Set immediately after Remake's events, players control mercenary Cloud Strife and a party of characters principally comprising the eco-terrorist group AVALANCHE, who embark on a journey across the Planet to prevent the megacorporation Shinra from exploiting its life essence, the Lifestream, as an energy source, and defeat former elite SOLDIER Sephiroth, who seeks to unite with the Planet to achieve greater power.
#ff7 #ff7r #rebirth
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Where do we even start??
Seemingly by the end
From the begining
Nomura BS strikes again
@@johans3164 not nomura, he isnt a writer. That was nojima. Cmon, just a quick search away
How about “Stop turning FF7 into Kingdom hearts”?
I love the idea that Max is just sitting around waiting for other people to finish Rebirth so he can talk more about it. Dood is a fiend for FF7 discussions!
thank the planet. he’s one of the only things keeping me sane waiting for these games to come out
That's what I've been doing
Me: I swear max has been on at least 5 different channels so far talking about the ending, lol
Max: ILL MAKE IT 50
Honestly I’m hear for it. The guy has been cooking like crazy and seeing other people hear about the theories is great
I just came here to see if Max shits on Genesis.
@@thatstheway2429 Max is onboard for the Gackt redemption arc
And I’ll eat it up every time!
@@oreotaku4017 "Gackt R͟e͟d͟e͟m͟p͟t͟i͟o͟n͟ arc"
I see what you did there.
0:53 I think it's also important to note one thing that, not many people bring up. It was seemingly revealed in the FF7 Rebirth Ultimania that........the Reunion was ATTEMPTED at the end of Rebirth. Like, it wasn't just a big multiversal boss fight to cap off the end of the game and the scene with Aerith, according to Ultimania Sephiorth was basically doing his big bad master plan THERE and was apparently thwarted by Cloud, Aerith and the party. Now I know Sephiorth has got a back up and we still don't seem to be clear on what this shit is supposed to do, but whatever Sephiorth is doing in part 3.........is not the way he originally planned it. This is plan B we're talking about here, and I'm kind of curious to see what that will entail.
He wanted to reunite the worlds before casting meteor. Having all the "worlds" in one place maximizes the amount of potential energy he can absorb, giving him more power than his OG VII plan.
I mean, if Cloud saved Aerith in one of these alternative timelines who are doomed to die, and he can see and speak with her just fine while staying in his actual timeline with everyone else, it makes sense he would be able to see other things from the aerith is alive timeline, including that timeline's tear in the sky. So the tear is really there for him and aerith, he's just justifying it as an hallucination, its not there for everyone else
The devs even said that the big TWIST with Cloud will be less of a 'unreliable narrator' and more of a 'unreliable world' so in this case CLOUD isn't crazy, the world is splitting apart at the seams and it seems now Cloud is one of the only people who can perceive it. Interesting twist on the original story.
Right, he can see both worlds at the same time, because he's been between worlds. And maybe that was the blessing Sephiroth gave him.
I'm more in this boat for the ending. Cloud exists in both timelines at the end (Remake & Rebirth Zack's where they're sleeping and wake up). This happened when Zack touches Cloud during the ending fight. Touching him pulls him away from the party members and in to a timeline where they are fighting Sephiroth. Sephiroth himself goes between timelines as you battle him. Sephiroth separates Zack and Cloud creating another timeline in which Zack fights him as "a" world is ending. Beats him and Angeal or Aerith saves him again and sends him to another timeline.
3:25 i interpreted it as the Aerith who died in the.....let's call it 'prime' timeline helping Cloud beat Sephiorth. It's why she says " I saw what you did there", referring to witnessing the other universe be created (it was also confirmed in the ultimania that Cloud SAVED Aerith and it wasn't ultimately part of a illusion (him saving her at the very least) and also why she fades away seemingly into the lifestream at the end of the battle. I can not 100% confirm this either but there is a strong possibility that 'prime' Aerith may have moved into the body of AU aerith. We've seen Cloud and Aerith specifically shown to be connected to their AU selves and Cloud was seemingly pulled into his AU body for the 'date' and then sent back. We see AU aerith being laid down to go to sleep, Cloud fights Sephiorth with 'prime' aerith and then goes back and we see him with AU Aerith and her 'waking up' why would she need to be 'asleep'? I think it was to possibly wait for 'prime' aerith to kind of hop into her body which is why she 'wakes' up at the end.
Cloud becomes Omni-Cloud
Cloud learns Omnislash
And Omnislash is basically "I cut reality open"
no he cuts himself because he is sephiroth
Love this idea!!
42:51 There's a couple of issues with the "Jenova-Aerith" Theory. The first is that any time there's an interaction with Jenova-as-(insert character) there is a Black Cloak or SOLDIER in the immediate vicinity. This is established in Kalm the first time Cloud sees Sephiroth in the Inn. They highlight the Inn Keeper specifically and we learn later that he's a former SOLDIER. "Glen" is also a Black Cloak.
Sephiroth does appear at times without Black Cloaks but there are Black Whispers involved at those times. There are no Black Cloaks or Whispers in that final scene.
The second is that you can hand off the Black Materia to Barret, Tifa, Red XIII or Cid in the OG.
It's established near Corel that Red XIII can sense far more than animals. I think it's suggested he can sense, to some degree, the lifestream.
The Jenova-Aerith theory has too many contradictions to work.
Good points except that Cloud himself is referred to Jenova and Sephiroth as a clone…because he is. At least from the persecute that he was injected with Jenova and Sephiroth cells with the goal of created a Sephiroth clone, initially deemed a failure by Hojo. (Ultimately he would be deemed a success though)
All of the clones you reference have Jenova cells. Well, so does Cloud.
I would say Red XIII does too but it’s never specified (as far as I know) whether Red XIII has Jenova cells or not. Either way, Jenova-Aerith makes sense if you include Cloud as a “hooded figure”. The only difference between those hooded figures and Cloud is that the hooded figures have all succumbed to extreme mako poisoning
@@Griever8686 and I admit that could be the case. I just don't personally think it is.
It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
in remake ch13 beginning, cloud sees sephiroth with no cloaked guys and no whispers present, just straight up hallucinating. same thing happened in ch2 when the big midgar turns into nibelheim vision happens, neither were present but there is sephiroth. the difference is that in these times, only he can see him because it’s all in his head, like jenovaerith
red xiii having jenova cells might be similar to how they tried to do it to zack but it failed for some reason, which is why zack is seemingly immune to jenova’s influence
47:38 That's not the theme Max is talking about, he's talking about the scene where Aerith shows up to Cloud when the party is crying at the place where her body is laid to rest, you can hear a very somber and creepy music for like 5 seconds.
A lot of people missed it. The black materia was indeed fake. It wasn't glowing.. The fake sephiroth picked it up, and summoned the whispers and found the real black materia. Then it glowed but dropped through his fingers. That was when aerith was like noooo! And cloud passed it back to sephiroth. That was the real glowing black materia
A FF7 Rebirth discussion video with Max?! I’m here penguins.
What'd be cool? The empty materia becomes a summon materia, a materia that summons AERITH! Like we can Gilgamesh, Titan, etc.
I wasn’t sure how this game was gonna end……. I did not expect it to be Steins;Gate though.
Steins Gate is like a million times more coherent though, FF7 is a jrpg plot and Rebirth is a (jrpg plot)^2
@@0y1onFF7R is coherent with its story. It's just that we are missing 1/3 of it so we don't have full knowledge and answers yet.
@@soul6733 So can you really say its coherent? Why so much grace? Would you accept reading a book full of swiss cheese holes? I've seen intrigue and mystery is built in many other series well. But the subversion is so on the nose in this game, its as if the devs are subverting you just for the sake of subversion.
@@McLovinYoMuffin Except it's not. The game does give you hints and explanations for what is happening. We just don't have answer to everything yet because we are missing one last part which will have additional explanation. Or do you perharps judge a book halfway in?
@@soul6733 The hints and explanations given are diluted by the parts of the story which are subversive and there to intentionally mislead the audience.
If it were a book I would naturally think... "This feels bad, I dont like this, something is wrong."
I'm just no longer willing to give them any grace. We are all putting our hopes that everything will make sense in pt 3, after looking at the other directors works I am lowering my expectations.
Other muti part series make grand stories work, but without the immense amount of subversion.
This has more of the makings of a convoluted disaster in the end and we grasp at straws to make it make sense.
When Nico pulled up a clip from an episode of Scrubs during the ending discussion I knew this was gonna be a doozy lmao
I'd laugh so hard if they trolled everyone by ditching the naming convention and calling it FFvii Sephiroth's End or something stupid like that
it’s gonna be “Reborn” i think. one winged angel at the end of remake was called OWA: Rebirth, and at the time we didn’t think anything of it until the 2nd game was called that.. and the one in rebirth’s soundtrack was called OWA: Reborn. it makes sense that they would do that again to reward those looking
i hate this ending. they could've either committed fully to the changing fates scenario and have us save her and celebrate, or to the fact she's dead and let us mourn her properly in set up for later. What we got was just a weird KH-like mess of an ending that pandered to both scenarios without committing to either. total cop outs
EDITED Hope we get to see the Gold Saucer dates before the of this week 😅
Anyway, given that last goodbye at the end, and how Cloud seems to believe that Aerith is alive and safe somewhere else, it seems to imply that this Aerith is a combination of an illusion and her from an alternate timeline; though her saying "Goodbye" at the end might just be Cloud's inner self expessing that deep down he knows that she's never coming back. Honestly I'm not too keen on the idea of her being brought back as some sort of force ghost that appears every now and again; it can very easily make her death feel like less of a significance if they strip us of the cold reality that none of them will be able to actually speak to her again, and it can be seen as disrespectful to her and the original game.
Now given what we know of the second half of the OG game, Tifa will probably play more of a protagonist role in part 3, which I'm hoping gets greatly expanded upon. But did anyone notice something strange when Tifa arrived at the alter; for just a brief moment there's static in her vision, and she seemed to perceive a scene very similar to what Cloud was seeing, of Aerith surviving, like she was briefly seeing what her heart desired at that very moment, much like Cloud. Could this have something to do with her very recent dip in a pool of Mako? Will this be brought up in part 3? I think I might have some idea on how this will play out in the next game:
Cloud won't necessarily see illusions of Aerith accompanying them; his current mindset is that he's absolutely certain that she's safe somewhere else after he saved her successfully, that he beautifully played his role as the hero he promised Tifa he would become. He is in such absolute denial that he has failed to make good on this promise even after becoming as powerful as he is today, and that it cost one of his most precious companions life. He can't accept that, that he is an unmitigated failure of a hero. Thus the sad reality was blocked out almost completely, replaced with nothing but success in this last endeavour.
Now Tifa on the other hand knows the truth in her head, that her friend that she grew to love is no longer with her; but her heart, much like Cloud's, is filled with a desire to see her, alive and well. Cloud won't be the one who will be frequently haunted by illusions of Aerith throughout part 3, because he's not stuck between acceptance and denial, unlike Tifa. It's because Tifa is stuck with her desire to see Aerith that I believe that she will be the one constantly seeing Aerith's image flashing in and out of her vision. It'll get stronger and more frequent as the story proceeds, to the point where she's eventually able to communicate with the illusion; a good time for this to happen is during her execution in Junon, where she's at her absolute lowest point, more so than even in the original. She comes to realise that the Aerith in front of her is not only just her illusion, but just another side of Tifa herself in the form of the one she deeply admired. Nevertheless the illusionary Aerith pleads with her not to give up, that she can still save Cloud; "If you didn't believe you could go on, I wouldn't even be here giving you this cheesy speech", she'd probably say 😉
I think Omni-Aerith is who Aerith is talking about when she says she can’t wait to meet her “future self.” Her future self is dead, but Aerith foresees some power and wisdom in it, even if she isn’t fully aware in the moment what that means for her
Missed opportunity not saying, "He sends his Space Ghosts Coast-to-Coast to find the Black Materia."
Max says in the final scene on the hillside Aerith is never there unless Cloud is looking at her - not true. After the Bronco flies away, we see Aerith's POV, standing alone, Cloud is long gone in the plane, and she's still there and even says, "Goodbye" to no one around. If this is supposed to be Jenova, that really makes no sense and is just bad storytelling.
Yes agreed
I've been saying Return since end of remake. If you want an idea about theory crafting, you should check out Twin Peaks and Twin Peaks:The return
Cloud didn't save any Aerith. It's setting up for Advent Children and his regret for not saving her, until his lifestream arc he's mental and right now doesn't think she's dead, cause she can talk to him from the lifestream just like AC and he hasn't realized since it just happened.
Max is awesome; he helps to recall even the tiniest details from the various ff7 games and AC. I could listen to his theories for hours!
I don’t mind them having Ever Crisis contain relevant info. To me it's not really all that different than having this kind of stuff in Ultimania's, novels, prequel games, and other extra materials.
That’s just how a lot of Japanese media seems to be. Tons of games, manga, all have data or guid books.
Disagree with Maxdood on a 3 points:
1. The end was life stream/Omni Aerith not Jenova Aerith.
2. You were right at first, there is another Aerith that we saved his sword caused a rainbow effect is around the buster when he tried to block masamune. That empty materia in the final cutscene literally shows the two worlds (timeline of memories) in the reflection. The rip is probably the second timeline where she exists that only Cloud can perceive.
3. Zack can't be in their timeline at the end of Rebirth if the stamps don't match up. Johnny is carrying a corgi plush and the OG tl was beagle, which the main party returned to after the big whisper fight in Remake.
Sidenote, why does no one care about Hojo's angle in this lol? He seemed aware of what Omni Sephiroth's intentions are, especially with that "Has it finally begun" helicopter scene. Max saying part 3 will be the end of Sephiroth arc is interesting. That implies that there'll be more to the VII and I think Hojo plays a big part in that.
So the convergence. I'm starting to see that Sephiroth has combined the timelines and cloud can see both. But I still think he's being manipulated by Sephiroth or jenova because he still has to bring the black materia to the crater which he has at the end if the game
Thanks for uploading your FF7 Rebirth ending discussion with Max and chat! It was a lot of fun trying to piece this ending and story together and I can’t wait to see what Part 3 has in store for us!
Long awaited crossover is here! Nico will never get off the crazy FF7 train and im all for it lol
I saw on Landi Lodges ending explained video that he thinks Sephiroth made all the mini pocket worlds at the end of Remake so he could create a feeding ground of despair. Because you see all the people are scared and depressed they know they are gonna die because there is the tear in the sky and they know their world is ending. Landi Lodge suggested that Sephiroth is feeding on this despair which is increasing his power exponentially.
Where I THOUGHT it was going with Zack/Biggs, "OMG Zack and Biggs have been dead this WHOLE time! I'm playing them in the afterlife!" - Where it was "Alternate reality" ---
Where I THOUGHT it was going with Aerith, "OMG They're going to make it like the cannon despite the sword deflection thing!" - Where it was "Schrodinger's Aerith" ---
Where I THOUGHT it was going with the ending, "OMG they're gonna have us fight Jenova with the impactful music, then end the game with her burial!" - Where it was "Oh... we're fighting Sephiroth... again."
Thank you NicoB!! Awesome!!!!
Sounds to me Sepheroth wants to bring the world [HEAVEN].
So how about this? The white materia Cloud is looking at in the final cg cut scene isnt the white materia at all. Its the black materia. Cloud just doesnt really see it then. You never see him handling both at the same time. Which speaks to Maxs theory that one of these Aeriths isnt Aerith. Its actually Jenova
Idk, after watching the ending a bunch of times, I feel like Aerith is actually dead and she's just influencing cloud through the LifeStream the same way sephiroth is
Multiple timelines... That's about life in general. Your choices will shape your reality aka. shift you from one timeline to another.
Yes bro I had to pause the game My eyes were too watery to fight the battle the music just hit me in the feels an the flood gates opened
The third game will start with heading to iccle inn, and the info dump/story time moment (like the flashback scene in kalm) will be the hojo/sephiroth/aerith tapes in Ghast's lab.
I don't like multiverse in games or movies when it is poorly made, so I'm bittersweet about the ending. It juste sounds like an excuse to save characters by pulling them from another world.
An example where I didn't mind it was Into / Across the Spiderverse. And I thought it worked because their personality and appearance are different from one another. So when one of them dies, you know his world is screwed, there is no option available anymore (like the world Miles's spider came from).
In Rebirth, since they are literally clones of each other, even though one dies in a dimension you don't feel any emotion because the first reaction you have is: "Oh well, there are still a million left... Who cares?"
I think the only way I could "accept" this is if all timelines are not real and just living rent free in Cloud's head, but I don't think it is. I didn't play the original btw, so nostalgia doesn't work on me, it probably influences things.
0:01: ⏱ Discussion on the evolving storyline in FF7 Rebirth, particularly the concept of timelines and the altered reunion in part three.
9:15: 💔 Discussion on unsatisfying ending for newcomers due to lack of context from original game experience.
17:22: ⚔ The SC manipulated us to defeat the Whispers, gaining control over Destiny and altering its interpretation.
25:51: 🎮 Discussion on the impactful changes in the game, potential character awakenings, and concerns about flashbacks.
34:07: 🤯 Analysis reveals intentional vagueness in Final Fantasy 7 Remake's ending, leading to multiple unanswered questions.
42:42: 💭 Interpretation of the ending suggests protagonist's unreliable narration and potential deception about character's fate.
50:53: 🔍 Analysis of Aith's character in the ending scene with Cloud raises questions about her identity and intentions.
58:30: 🌌 Interconnected worlds hold a single crucial item, manipulated by the cetra and ghee for concealment.
1:06:24: 💥 Speculation on potential collaboration between Cloud and Sethro to confront Jenova, highlighting Sethro's disruptive intentions.
1:13:53: 🎮 Speculation on the next game's storyline and starting point after Rebirth's ending.
1:21:55: 🎮 Speculation on character development and potential storyline twists in Final Fantasy Remake series.
1:29:45: ⏳ Evolution of party and characters through technology, impacting gameplay progression in a new way.
1:37:18: 🎮 Discussion on the exceptional quality of the game, exceeding expectations and potential hints for the third installment.
Recap by Tammy AI
Great stuff Nico and man oh man that is an incredibly revealing informational find about that onetime theme being analyzed by Max’s composer friend. Well done Max for such attention to detail.
The implications are big, especially when factored in with Aerith at the very end.
Also can anyone please tell me what the song is at 50:16? Thanks.
Any time Max is involved in an FF7 discussion, you know things are going to get wild.
I would argue that we get hints of Omni-Cloud burgeoning even before the walk with Aerith towards Sector 7 begins. Remember when Cloud first thinks he sees Sephiroth just after Mako Reactor 1 blew up and how people noticed that the arm he grabs is the one where Geostigma was developing? I’m thinking that was the first moment. Also all this Omni stuff may just give new meaning to Cloud’s ultimate Limit Break too, like it’s all the Clouds from across all worlds or timelines or what have you doing this series of slashes.
The speculation is the best part of the Retriliogy.
As for the final scene, one could speculate that while Cloud is holding the clear materia its the real aerith (acts normal: cheering with the team, wind doesnt affect her dress, no dialogue, red notices her presence) and then Cloud pulls out the Black materia, (has a migrane ****warning) and then a different Aerith appears to him whether its his psyche or jenova, this is the off Aerith. I believe the biggest indicator of it being a different aerith is actually just the wind from the tiny bronco affects her dress which i found odd.
Personally i believe its just his psyche. To me Aerith is saying things that cloud wants to say to himself and hes just projecting aerith as a means to build confidence. But i mean i could absolutely see it as a jenova manipulation as well.
My theory for the Remake trilogy is based on the idea that keeps getting repeated during every discussion video. The original ending of FF7 was a bad ending. The "good" ending of FF7 was that humanity/sentient life got wiped out so the planet could recover from the damage. Between that idea, learning about the history and suffering of the Gi, and the fact that the planet creates alternate worlds when things don't go EXACTLY to its plans just so it can feed off them like some kind of parasite, it makes me wonder if the Planet itself is going to be just a big a threat next game as Jenova and Sephiroth.
I feel like we actually don't even know the true horrors of the Weapons. The planet is just going to casually start throwing Godzilla level threats around because it is afraid, and I dread to see the level of destruction that entails. I genuinely believe the penultimate boss of the next game won't be Jenova, I think it might be Gaia.
I will use a comparison for why i don't like the divergence ending.
Imagine you order your favorite meal on doordash, you could get any number of different delivery persons. But why would we ever CHOOSE the weird, gaslighting, talkative and annoying driver? We just want our meal.
I dunno why, but, when you guys started talking about the ending of OG FF7, I thought to myself: these two should do a Podcast together.
1:10:25 And what if that materia ends up being the Pre-Emptive materia, the one materia that made the first strike on Sephiroth possible in Nibelheim.
The Sephiroth you saw for most of OG FF7 was Jenova. You didn't actually see the real Sephiroth, besides the flash back, until the Northern Crater. Jenova is known to take many forms, it's how she tricked the original Cetra and waged war against them. It's why you always fight a part of Jenova after running into "Sephiroth" in their journey, like on the boat to Costa Del Sol. In fact Cloud isn't even on Sephiroth's radar at all until Temple of the Ancients at the earliest and that's only because he got his hands on the Black Materia. This is what makes the scene in Chapter 2 of Remake so telling (all the fire after the bombing and Cloud seeing/hallucinating his home town)... because that conversation makes absolutely no sense and would never have happened with normal Sephiroth.
@14:54; Here's my thought on that - Aerith showed him the tear in Zack's "Timeline", and we know from the original (In Disc 2, when Sephiroth is claiming that Cloud is just a Sephiroth clone that has Jenova cells that are making him look like Cloud) that Jenova cells can make up memories, can also make up appearances.
Even in ReBirth, Cloud's attack at Tifa is based on the knowledge that Jenova can shape-shift to fit another person's memories of the person they're imitating (In part because Sephiroth is letting to clear to Cloud to sow doubt about Tifa to him.).
So what I think ended up happening? Aerith isn't alive in either timeline, but much like how Cloud imagined himself as Zack at Nibelheim during the flashback he told them, and was able to tell stories about stuff he *definitely* shouldn't know about, because Jenova's pulling from Tifa's memories, and Cloud's Grunt Memories, and from Zack's Soldier memories..and how Cloud went from "Near Hooded Man" state before Tifa first found him to "Cloud the man who remembers Tifa, and the stuff that happened at the Nibelheim incident really well, but now has to go after he gets his money from the Avalanche mission.". Or in other words, Aerith imprinted onto Jenova, and now *Jenova* is stuck in charge of keeping up the Aerith illusion so that Cloud thinks she's there, essentially the way Jenova as Sephiroth had tried to claim that Jenova was doing wtih Tifa.
TL:DR; Aerith isn't alive, but Cloud's Jenova cells imprinted on Aerith so heavily because of the close contact they had throughout ReMake and ReBirth that the Jenova cells in Cloud are, in an attempt to prevent Cloud from RROD'ing, making an entirely illusionary Aerith based on how Cloud knew her...and is presenting that Aerith only to him, because nobody else is going to believe that Aerith is alive.
~~~~
As to why Aerith did that imprinting so heavily? That was her plan to get away from Jenova and Sephiroth - they think "Well, she's dead, she can't do anything anymore", but...Jenova-imprint Aerith *can* help Cloud the way that Aerith would have helped him, and Jenova hasn't caught on that Cloud's Jenova cells are the ones keeping her going to help Cloud in moments of heavy amounts of weakness, because Jenova can't control Aerith, and can't kill her, because she's in the Lifestream now...but Aerith may have planned to use Cloud's Jenova cell's illusion of herself to communicate past the Lifestream, to Cloud, in his moments of weakness.
Or to TL:DR; all of that - the timelines is a red herring for how Cloud can see Aerith, but the scar in the sky is happening because Jenova's cells in Cloud are trying to make sense to Cloud of how Cloud can even see Aerith - and is basing it on the time they were in Zack's timeline area and saw the crack in the sky there. And that's Aerith doing the imprinting on Jenova that *that* is a way that it looks like she's still alive that would make sense to Cloud.
@44:56; I still think that while it's Jenova, it's not Jenova on purpose - Just Jenova trying to handle the fact that Cloud has memories of Aerith, and because Jenova's trying to not have him crash before he delivers the Black Materia to Sephiroth at the ReUnion, Jenova isn't aware that Aerith is what they're reproducing through Cloud's cells (If it wasn't Cloud's cells doing the reproduction, then the others would be able to see her), and it's entirely possible if, because Sephiroth and Jenova were in the Lifestream together in the Crater, and now Aerith is in the Lifestream...she might be able to use that connection to Jenova to control Cloud's Jenova cell's representation of herself, from the Lifestream.
Nico I’m hoping I can give a different perspective to think about as someone that never played the OG and only know of ff7 through watching your LPs of KH and ff7 remake through the years. First, thank you for introducing me to my emo doppelgänger. Second, I truly believe Cloud is living in 2 timelines at once; where the crack in the sky is the one where Aerith is alive and only he out of the group can see it, and the other timeline where the planet is safe is only as long as she’s in the lifestream. And clearly, developers wouldnt leave us with 2 timelines without plans of somehow merging them into one, hoping in the third game somewhere along the lines of Cloud can see Aerith’s timeline dying and he can somehow pull her back into his prime timeline. Thanks again for years of entertainment💪🏻
The part about Red being manipulated by Jenova because of the Black materia thing in the original is wrong...in the original you get to choose which character gets the materia...by that logic you can have Barret hold onto the materia, until Sephiroth appears as Tifa to get it.... So the "Red senses Aerith" is still legit and in my opinion the Jenova illusion does not make sense at the end...
From how I see it all makes sense if we treat timeline like a tree. It all has the same original roots of the beginning of the universe and spread its root with each decision.
However there's a problem with how the timeline end which we don't know what's the requirements for destruction yet.
Think of those deadend route as a dead root.
So far there's only Sepheroth and Aerith have the power to interfere the fate. Meanwhile the gangs only saw a grimps of it.
The tinfoil hats and chalkboards are coming out.
Time to stock up on string, corkboards, and pins.
For Part3 I predict the first half of the game will wrap up every single mystery and loose thread introduced throughout Remake, Rebirth, AC, Dirge, all of it...
and THEN for the second half of the game, it's the OG timeline, except Cloud was an unreliable narrator in the OG, too, so a simple shift in perspective recontextualizes everything you ever thought you knew about FF7 for the last 30 years.
And that is going to piss people off. And people will say, no way! They wouldn't do that! That's going too far!
And that is EXACTLY the reason I think they're going to do it!
Everyone speculating on this and that it's very simple just watch. Big Bad Bosses [B3] | Angel Official Music Video.
Simple the 'bad' Sephiroth wares the crown of ego, he is not following fate's plans, he is generic demon lord mode.
Aerith fights for the planet's existence, even tho her people FAILED at protecting the planet from humans.
Jenova represents the embodiment of fate and it's been twisted and corrupted and rejected by humans. Who use her blood to make weapons.
Even Queen's blood plays a role as fate was once again stopped by 'idealism' Trying to do the 'right thing'.
The Centra keeps making more and more and bigger mistakes and they keep repeating them through their blood to the determent of the planet.
I mean even with the black Materia it was created by a people who saw death of the planet as, their only answer.
Now the planet is dying because life energy is being used as fuel for industry and war.
Their is no Happy ending from this on the ego path, everyone wants to fight for themselves and their own ego and what they 'think' is right never ask the question.
Is what they are doing actually right for the planet or for their fate? Do they even want the right answer?
Aerith has given her answer "There is no such thing as forever" Idealistic mortal and wrong her arrogance and the arrogance of her people combined. She is fighting for the status-quo not for change, if Aerith gets her wish planet dies not from impact but, a slow death of hubris.
So a new game is played! Jenova-Aerith in clouds head! Mostly cause it is what people would hate the most however, what is the only way for Cloud to work with fate? He's not a big thinker.
The only real answer? To get back on fate's timeless and accept the planet will change adapt to it or fight against the crushing tides. Change happens.
I am sure there is a chocobo out in a field chewing on some locoweed asking the tough questions here. "Coco-bro... Dude... I wonder if like... There is like.. Universal life stream and when planets don't adhere to it and only want selfish gain... Have they Janvoa happen to it? Maaan that's Wild, choco-bro wild! You always get the strangest idea's when eating this stuff Choco-bro."
One point I disagree with Max is that he mentioned that Cloud in the next game will have a Dark Knight move set, but I think Cloud will have Sephiroth move set
On the 'Sepiroth jobs Jenova' idea. What if Sephiroth isn't killing Aerith, but Jenova taking her form?
Do we think Nomura is enough of a bastard to make us fight a Jenova disguised as Aerith with Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth?
36:25 - re: the lack of internal clock - There are also no clocks in Zack's world, or rather, none of the clocks you can see have any hands on them. It's not just the people there literally is no time there.
44:52 - I'm not sure I buy the "you only see Aerith from Cloud's perspective" or when he's paying attention to her that's mentioned right after this timestamp, because right at this timestamp, you can see Cloud in the distance looking away from them all. You really can't see Cloud or what he's watching in 90% of the other shots with Aerith in them, but in this specific moment, you can actually see him and he's looking off to his right.
1:01:12 - I'm 99% sure we never see the White materia in Remake (except a future-memory flash Cloud has when he first arrives in the church and re-meets Aerith, he sees it fall from her hair during the death scene). I just went through a "all Aerith scenes in Remake" video to double-check, and I'm pretty sure we never actually see it.
Yeah, they show her ribbon when she's talking about her "special" materia but you can't actually see it. Which I thought was odd.
Marlen explains to Zack that cloud tried to save Aerith, but he wasn’t quick enough.
Wait, Max said create an existence where people don’t die….
Is Sephiroth Obito from Naruto?
I don’t think “timelines” is the right term. Mostly likely their different “World Lines”. The planet is creating different scenarios. Nomura has use this term / idea for KH before.
Before i give my 2 cents, i would like to recite what max said
"We are all wrong, we all don't know what the hell is going on."
I have not played any of the games and am not a FF7 lore master
I know the plot and story of the games though through reading and the miniseries from the completionist years ago
My ideas will be different comments as this is already too long
Why Sephiroth turned against Jenova
Easy, she gaslight him into thinking she was his mother and now he's pissed
From my memory of Dirge of Cerberus / Crisis core Sephiroth's parents are Hojo and his lab assistant Lucresia
It's unclear how he was conceived, but if they aren't going with a later theory i have it wasn't good.
Sephiroth is more or less human, heavily augmented, but started as human.
In the timeline Shinra tasked the R N D department with creating a Cetra, the front runners were Hojo and another named Hollander
Hojo either figured out that a 'pure' child of jenova and a human wouldn't work or tried it himself and it resulted in failure
The only example of this is Genesis where hollander used his own DNA and Jenova making Genesis a pure test tube baby whose cells are unstable and dying
Hollander then either did the deed with a local woman and altered the baby or just screwed with the baby
This was how Angeal was created
Thank god for Max
I don't have faith that any of this will pay off. Incredible game either way.
ooof no, The clones with numbers are Jenova, Jenova uses Sephiroths likeness because it is the thing that triggers the shit out of Cloud and makes him rage - Jenova enjoy's tormenting people.
The Sephiroth cloud meets at the edge of creation is omni-Sephiroth.
The Aerith at the end of REBIRTH that helps cloud is the omni-Aerith.
Cloud is omni-Cloud he has the ability to weave the threads of time.
Cloud will be the one to ultimately decide what time line will be the "prime" time line out of every time line.
The new "Prime" time line hasn't been created yet.
it is being created as we play through the remake/rebirth/r3.
The OG game was the previous "Prime" time line, but no one wants that time line to be true,
Sephiroth/Aerith/Cloud/Jenova.
Sephiroth in REMAKE attempts to Remake the timeline
Jenova in REBIRTH attempts to Rebirth the timeline
Cloud & Aerith in REEMERGENCE together will Reemerge the timeline.
At the boarder of the duality of our fates crossing we will wait for you.
Is Sephiroth's plan to create Sin? You know, from FFX. Because we know FF7 and X exist in the same universe and maybe in the end the world is changed in such a way that the lifestream changes from what is happening in this game, and the stirrings of negativity and hate begin to build into Sin...
I don't remember enough of FFX to really delve into this idea, but it's definitely a thought worth looking in to.
By chance does anyone have a link to the video Max references about around 48:00 with the music and possible Jenova theme thing?
I hope see this coop for part 3 ending talk.
You are shifting to be more like Max every day, slowly even copying speech cadence. We've already got one Max, Nico. Be better than him, not an imitation. No hate. You're doing a good job, better than I ever could.
Rebirth's ending has a bunch of good stuff in it. Namely because there's too much stuff. It's way too busy trying to be confusing and smart that, for me at least, it took away from the emotional weight of the moment that was otherwise pretty excellent
Nico has so many similarities in his speech patterns with Max. It threw me off for the entire intial rant
My biggest problem with the ending is that it feels like they didn't actually commit to anything. I get the point that you are supposed to be confused like Cloud is, but what it came off as is the devs being unsure where the story should go, even if they do actually have everything planned out already. It's almost the same way I felt after FF7 Remake where they go "what if things were different this time though" but leave it for the next game. I was okay with it that time but was really hoping we have a big branch-off point in Rebirth, but instead it also just feels like "yeah things happened pretty much exactly the same way, but in the next game, there definitely definitely will be a pay off for all the crazy bullshit we put in here." Just want to also point out that I loved 99.9% of the game except for that fact so it's not like it's gonna keep me from playing the next game.
I feel like people just took the idea of "not everything will go the same way" with "EVERYTHING WILL CHANGE COMPLETELY". Because some things did go differently from the original but that didn't mean there would be like a big extreme change everytime.
@@soul6733 I think you didn't understand my point. What, plot-wise, changed at all? Sure sephiroth shows up at the end of both games when he normally wouldn't, but it doesn't change anything, like maybe if we actually lost to Sephiroth it would feel different, but as it stands, the only major plot difference is that we spar with sephiroth at the end of each game and then he fucks off. As a result, it just feels really tough to justify any of the changes because the only effect they seem to have is to confuse everybody and take away the emotional impact of iconic scenes from the OG. That’s why i feel like there is a weird limbo where this is kinda a sequel but they haven’t actually committed to changing the story in any way so it’s sorta stuck between being a sequel and a remake until we have the third game at least
@@arseniykorchevskiy1564 Well, Wutai and Shinra are now at each other's throat which might spiral into an actual war in part 3. Cloud is more insane than he was in the original but also remember Zack partially. Zack is active and creating alternate worlds due to him being basically an anomaly. And an Aerith did survive in another world. As for "smaller" changes, Dyne was captured and put in a junkyard instead of being free and near a cliff where Barret find him. The group confront Shinra and Rufus more often. The whole event of the reactor of Gongaga happened. The group also learned more about the Gi and the Black materia this time. They also didn't spend as much time with Vincent and Cid and also didn't get to visit Rocket Town this time and the circumstances that led them to meet Yuffie, Vincent and Cid are different.
@@arseniykorchevskiy1564 Just because you see the party going on track to the original story doesn't mean nothing significant changes, there's a giant subtextual and meta narrative happening that changes the perception in how the player see the original story, the characters is SIGNIFICANTLY different, everyone motivations is altered in ways that enhance their original counterpart, is that not different enough? They clearly set up many emotional impact like Aerith's death for the 3rd game but what did they do instead in this game? They add in NEW EMOTIONAL scene that is so good and natural that i'm surprised that it's not in the original game: Cloud and Tifa conversation at calm, the concert at the golden saucer foreshadowing shit and paying tributes to Jessie's, Biggs's, and Wedge's death, the many scene where we are shown the relationship dynamic between Tifa, Aerith and Cloud about Zack, Tifa drowning in the lifestream and having a heart to heart with Cloud in Gongaga and the heart wrenching emotional torture the party goes through at the temple of the ancient. The Remake Trilogy with it's timey wimey multiversal bullshit is just a plot device so that we can have a better written story and fanservice that the fans have been demanding for years. Finally Cloud regressing and pushing out the events of Aerith death is SOOO MUCH MORE in character for him and gut wrenching too cause now her death is going to still linger in the story rather than quickly resolved to move on for plot beats in part 3. It's simply untrue to say that the developer didn't commit to anything when they HARD COMMIT into making all their character better to the point of taking away emotional impacts from the original game.
@@hafizhaekal1352 I’m talking about the plot though. I agree that the characters were much better, that’s why I said I enjoyed 99% of the game a ton. But what I’m pointing out is all the timeline stuff is something that the devs are trying to say will change something in the third game, but so far it has changed nothing, that’s what I mean by them not committing. The plot of the OG could still happen pretty much completely in the final game or it could be completely different in many ways, but I guess we will see
"Reunited"
I've got the perfect conclusion, they're remaking this whole story for us, just to clarify about exactly happened in the original...nothing crazy happened, nothing changed, cloud is on drugs. End of story, huge disappointment, THE OUTCOME OF THAT ENDING IS INEVITABLE GODDAMMIT!!
Well this is a pleasant surprise
You sound exactly like Max
not timeline, its multiple world theory
I feel like Nomura wanted to share some of those but do to FF7r being too big they had to put it somewhere else?
To anyone reading this, please repent and believe the gospel! There’s a loving God who wants to know you and save you. He died on the cross and resurrected so we can be forgiven of our sins and be saved. Please consider the state of your soul! Believe in Jesus and follow Him so you may have salvation. Life is short, please make the right choice today!
I’m hoping for it to be called Final Fantasy VII Resolve 1:31:56
1:06:07 Third game is FF7: Reality confirmed. 😅
I like that its just tifa but if zach and tifa id be good with that
What if it was Aerith making Cloud believe she was still alive that deprived Sephiroth of that Clouds sadness and thats how she stopped the confluence of worlds and the reunion
If you think im gonna sit here and listen to Max talk about Final Fantasy 7 for ANOTHER 2 hours, then you thought right
"The ending happened" - Nico 2024
And it was awesome
LOLLLLLLLLL!!!!
He is objectively correct.
unbelievebly enough, the timeline rules seems to be similer to.... Homestuck, of all things. In Homestuck, there is one TRUE timeline, sometimes refer to as Canon, and whenever anyone travel in time to change the past they eiather work to create that timeline, or to diverge from it. Whenever a new timeline that diverge from the true timeline is created, it is considered a doomed timeline, and everyone and everything in it would eventually die. However, there are multiple instences where a doomed timeline is needed in order to help facilitate the true timeline.
homestuck is some bullshit though lol
What's Homestuck? Another game??
@OneColdRepublican it's a webcomic with some game logic in it. Very infamous for toxic fanbase. I actually don't recommend reading it, I used to like it, but not anymore.
@@OneColdRepublican
Webcomic. First few Acts are pretty funny but then it goes off the rails and lands on another track you never knew existed. 4 internet friends play a videogames that ends the workd and more shenanigans are involved. You just gotta read if you want to comprehend.
The Tenth Doctor said it best, I think. "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff."
The most quotable Dr Who quote ever.
It all has to do with how the lifestream and the planet itself is mostly the memories of those who have lived. So it’s a tad bit more metaphysical than strictly timelines and alternate realities per se.
The fact that FF7 now canonically has the planet being something like a four dimensional entity is so wild and fascinating
@@sanddry738I think the scene where Sephiroth tells us that there is only one planet gave me a lot more confidence in this “timeline” stuff, since it eliminated all possibility of it being an actual multiverse.
I also think it’s an incredibly important point since Jenova and the Gi do not come from the planet, and their stories will be very important in part 3.
to quote a certain fey: “time is a weird soup”
back when the show was good :(
To answer your question, Cloud at the end is thinking Aerith is going to stay at The Forgotten Capital to continue praying. She directly says to him that she’ll continue praying to stop meteor and leave the rest to him. That’s the story she’s selling to Cloud to explain why she’s not tagging along. Cloud questions it one time when he asks “what if something happens?” and she says “then I’ll send up smoke!”, and Clouds like “okay I’ll keep a look out”.
He doesn’t accept her death. She knows his mind is too fragile right now to accept it and that’s why she does this. He will have to come to terms with it later in part 3.
It’s brilliant because this denial mirrors the way many players reacted to Aeriths death originally. I love Nojima, Nomura and all these devs. They’re not afraid to take huge risks because they’re confident in their vision, and I’m also confident that this set up will pay off beautifully in part 3.
That's what happened in the OG, so there's no reason for her not to do it now.
I'm not sure its really a "story" she selling to him though. If you look at the white materia, in the OG when it fell it was pale green, meaning she managed to activate it according to Bugenhagen it glows green when it has been activated, but it is very clearly still white when it falls from her ribbon in Rebirth.
That could definitely be it, and makes Cloud's delusion in some ways more simple to understand. If he literally thinks he saved her and she didnt die, then the only question is - is the Aerith we see talking to him from actually in the lifestream and not just in the 'world where she lived' or whatever? I think that might be the trick of it, and it might actually explain why Red senses her - for us to know that he feels her presence in the LS, not in another world or whatever.
Idk, then it makes me wonder how Aerith is able to be visible to Cloud unless they are trying to say thats just something she can do, and Cloud is now attuned to seeing the lifestream because when Sephiroth gave him the indirect ability to see between worlds, we realize that these "worlds" are just the lifestream and an amalgamation of memories, experiences, etc. anyway.
Don't worry Nico. You're a kingdom hearts fan. Exploring story uncertainty to you now is just another Deep Dive.
Funny enough, I think understanding KH lore seems like a piece of cake compared to FF7 Remake/Sequel saga.
With KH things are open ended with so much potential and possibilities. But with FF7 the devs and team have said this will lead to AC but to what degree? Things are drastically different compared to OG FF7. I don’t want a direct link to AC based on everything that’s happened. But we’re left with so many questions and we’ve yet to actually get into the deep plot of the FF7 story. Aerith’s death was really just the start of monumental moments to the story.
I will add onto your comment tacolex that kh's plot is, yeah open ended, but open ended in the same way you have just finished reading a book and you have no idea what the next book is gonna do, so not really weird or unusual at all. Following kh's progression of the plot is actually really really simple, the only actual problem with it is that it's a lot to remember since the series is so long and constantly brings back stuff, and also when it purposefully tries to be mysterious and bizzarre on purpose, which is with the end of DDD, kh3 and remind. For DDD once you realize the time travel is basically the same as Harry potter's time travel it becomes trivial, while kh3 and remind are still confusing/uncertaint since we have to wait till at least kh4 before things get revealed on stuff that happened there. The rest of the series doesn't have anything like it or rebirth and remake, which hopefully will still get explained properly next game
Please, FF7 Remake and Rebirth is much easier than KH. You don't necessarily have to play the other games/read the novels to understand what you NEED to understand and we know it will stick to just 3 games.
@@soul6733 what youre talking about isnt related to something being easier to understand or complicated than kh, but what youre referring to is how accessible ff7 is compared to kh (i was talking in terms of complicated endings to wrap your head around). in your point of view, kh is more complicated because it is a 20 years on going series, with many entries to it compared to just "one". if you wanted to read the 10th volume of a book series, of course thats not gonna make sense, and i think everyone will understand why that is a flawed idea to begin with. videogames are just generally expected to be possibly played standalone, to be more accessible to as many people as possible, but there's nothing wrong with making every entries important for the on going plot if you want to, just more ambitious. but anyway, that is also incorrect anyway, because now ff7 HAS become a game/series you cant really get the full experience and picture if you only play one game. for these remakes, you need ff7 og, crisis core, advent children, dirge, the novels, the mobile games AND both remake games. i didnt even know about the sephiroth backstory thing from ever crisis, and nico and max even talk about how information is being spread out like this. for ff7 i think its a possibly bad call, since i think most people dont care about side ff7 content, while it works well with kh since we know already every game will contribute to the plot and are chapters of the bigger story too.
I hope there right about the whole sepiroth game on the mobile to be the 3rd game start cause like kh, it insane. It still MUCH worse in kh but young sepiroth story sounds so interesting
I think my favorite part about this game is how Sephiroth is legitimately annoyed and angry at Aerith.
He’s like, “this bitch is trying to thwart me.” It’s so satisfying seeing that smug, sadistic piece of shit get outsmarted 😂
“No one outsmarts me! I’m the outsmarterer here!” - Seph-dawg, probably
"How many times do I have kill you!?"
At least once more.
@@thunderflare59 I love to think by the end of this story, while Cloud has been dealing with Sephiroth PTSD, Sephiroth starts experiencing Aerith PTSD.
Aerith: “I’m waiting, Sephiroth.”
@@thatstheway2429dude. I’ve been laughing for the past 10 minutes straight. Solid gold comment here. “Get back here ya little bi-h. Imma give you despair!”
WILL THIS FREAKING FLORIST PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE, GOD DAMN GIRL ENOUGH
An alternative theory, that I'm beginning to believe more now, is that Cloud is less crazy at the end of Rebirth than everyone thinks he is, us as the players and his own party included.
He's actually the only one seeing anything close to the truth and that's because of Aerith.
1) Aerith shows him it's possible to travel to an alternate world and shows him the crack in the sky during their dream date, and she totally does this on purpose seemingly to prepare him for the crack he sees at the end of the game. Is it to show him the world they're in is now doomed to fade away? Possibly.
2) Cloud is the only one who sees the version of her who's alive. Yes, I subscribe to the theory that Cloud, upon deflecting Sephiroth's sword, created another alternate world where Aerith actually survived. He's the only one she's able to tell that she's in fact okay. This is to ensure that Cloud doesn't actually go insane after losing her and follows down the same depressive/self-blaming path as OG.
Cloud's not hallucinating Aerith at the end. She's communicating with him from the other world she survived in and he's aware of this.
She's preparing him for some big chess move in Part 3, which is why she also gave him the empty white materia.
Sephiroth will still try to mess with his head, though, and let's not forget, the Black Materia is still at play.
I thought about that too. It's so obviously pushing the "Cloud's shattered mind" POV that we're accepting blindly that he's blocking the death.
On the other hand, this could just be the developers reassuring fans that, despite appearances, this is a mostly faithful remake and Cloud is bonkers.
agree 100%
This is what I think and have been saying all along. It’s an inversion of OGFF7’s plot.
In the original, all of Cloud’s teammates think he’s mentally unwell and can’t be completely trusted. This time, he’s still mentally unwell…but the only one who can see the truth. This makes his companions’ faith and trust in him a plot point. One that the outcome of the story will hinge on.
Their trust in him will be what determines how committed they are to their collective goal.
But does that add to the original story? The Devs have made their intention clear to enhance the original story from a thematic standpoint, and I feel that totally inverting that is when it gets too convoluted for its own good. I can get with them robbing us from our goodbye, only if it pays off with Cloud truly having to accept loss. Accepting the past and looking forward to the future by not letting your "fate" define you is what the story is really about. I really think no matter how crazy the Multiverse elements may seem, they are all in service of the themes of FF7.
@@SnoTangerine For me personally? Yes, it makes the story much better. It never made sense to me that in OG there wasn’t much rumination or reaction to Cloud’s manipulation by Sephiroth. Both the party and he did not make a good case for why he should be included in the journey north if he’s a legitimate danger to the rest of the party.
Here, Cloud actually manages to completely overcome Sephiroth’s mental manipulation and stop him from killing Aerith. Only he can see it, only he knows the truth (with Tifa possibly being able to as a well, considering she saw flickering images of Aerith bleeding and not).
Moreover, while I agree that FF7 was about coping with death, I don’t think it was ever about accepting the finality of it. FF7 has a legitimate afterlife where people regularly interact with the living and affect the “real”world. That’s nothing like what death is in our reality.
It’s a reality where the stored knowledge of long-extinct ancients survive aeons and animate gigantic monsters. A world where eldritch abominations sail the cosmos and have the capacity to suck the spiritual essence out of a planet.
Sephiroth has come back from the dead once (twice by my count if I’m accurately predicting how the 7R trilogy’s story will go).
So why not Aerith? Why can’t the “impossible” happen here when it happens regularly elsewhere? Because the fanbase is romantically attached to the big sad of having her die? Fuck that. Let’s save her this time.
I apologize if that last bit comes off as terse, it’s not directed at you. I just don’t buy or jive with the “life is precious because it’s finite” philosophy. I don’t accept the perspective that a story can only be good or affecting if it involves permanent death and “consequences”. I personally hope they go full-bore and let us rescue her and get Zack back. There are plenty of ways to add pathos and gravity to the story.
Still, if people need a sad *death*…One idea that I’ve been attached to, and an inversion I’d like to see is for a Sephiroth redemption, but where he STILL ends up dead by the player’s hand. He was such an underserved villain in OG whose history, character and motivations were never fleshed out. That it would be a twist I don’t see the fanbase predicting, ending up liking Sephiroth and still having to put him down. Hating him always felt too easy. I hope this time we truly empathize with him, feel the despair of what it is to be a slave to the people that raised you and then end up only a slightly more free puppet under your mentally manipulative, alien-horror “mother”.
The whole “re-doing” of the ending (Advent Children, etc.) through learning how to accept grief also continues to track Neon Genesis Evangelion Rebuild. I really feel like that was the template for the whole FF7R project.
Might be coincidence cuz most of the main plot was actually an idea Nojima started plotting 10 years after the OG came out. There is a lot of similarities for sure. But when FF7 fans talk about the "30 Year Cook" they ain't lying
No it was how do we bring aerith back to life. lol
@@jeffwolfplays0513she’s dead tho
@@mindxfuneral which version? lol
Obviously spoilers
When Sephiroth is talking about worlds, he is talking about a person's mind.
A mind encompasses feelings, thoughts, emotions.
The biggest giveaway is the name of Chapter 14 "End of the world" as in End = Death World = Aerith.
Aerith's world has ended, she died.
In the latest Ultimania Nomura confirmed that he wanted to depict how Cloud's mind behaves when confronting a very awful situation, with that idea in mind we can infer that Cloud is actively suppressing Aerith's dead (just as he did it for Zack) with the help of Aerith within the lifestream at the exact same moment she died.
Devs are just trying to enforce us to discuss us which is nice, buy the Copium I am seeing that "aErIth iS aLivE" just sets all these people believing it to disappointment in part 3.
Although I do believe she will be back, just like Zack.
nah shes saved in another timeline/world
I wish it turned out like that, just an enhanced version of Cloud's state of mind and perception of reality, but how do you explain all the bs alternate timeline stuff that happens isolated from him? Like all the Zack stuff. How is that just in Cloud's mind? It was clearly made with alternate timelines and pocketdimensions in mind. All of Rebirth was about it.
But I would have very much liked, if it just was a spawn of Cloud's twisted and manipulated mind, just like it was in the OG, but they went all overboard already.
Regardless of the existence of the other worlds, the point is that the other worlds provide an out for Cloud's repression and make it more difficult to accept the truth: she died and they can't get her back. The mideel reveal is going to include her death as well as Zack's. @@dshearwf
I believe it was Nojima that said they were inspired by Carl Jung's philosophy on the Collective Unconscious? That would help explain the story perfectly, and even fits into the concepts that make up the original game. I'm pretty sure these "alternate timelines" are purely a metaphysical space comprised of the world's collective memories, emotions, dreams, etc. The scenes at the end that display the rainbow effect are absolutely transpiring in Cloud's head or something along those lines. I absolutely don't buy into the explanation of the multiverse in the same sense of how multiverses are generally described.
Well you know what?, the story wont be that complex everyone is overdoing it with the theories
@@zacatkinson3926 It'll be a lot simpler than people are expecting. It's really just going to be an extensive embellishment of the original story. The lifestream and Cloud's subconscious are really the only key factors that I feel people are missing, and getting dragged into the notion of some "alternate realities". But it does set up well for some good surprises.
@@ExploitedWorker I don’t agree on that sorry
@@zacatkinson3926 on what, exactly?
@@ExploitedWorker I wish to believe that, I really do, but it won't turn out like that. Simply because they went all in already with all of it. If it was "simple" it would just lead the whole of Rebirth ad absurdum. I can buy into the Zack projected into the fight at the end being in "Cloud's head", but what about all the scenes where he does stuff on his own...? Like how is that supposed to happen just in Cloud's head. It feels like an appropriate theory if we are talking about everything weird that happens when Cloud is on screen, but what about every other scene that doesn't make any sense? Like they absolutely made clear it IS some pocket dimension bs writing.
Think the saddest things with tifa looking dead inside at the end is the fact that she just watched her best friend die, and now she has to watch her other one slowly degrade into someone she doesn't know until he dies too as far as she understands.
I think Max has lost the plot just a little bit due to slapping new theories over old theories each time a new bit of information is revealed. Needs to strip all that away and apply Occam's Razor, rebuild the theory from scratch with the totality of information available.
Take the Doylist approach to interpreting the narrative. The devs have said they won't fundamentally change the outcome of the game, nor its themes. What is the central theme of FFVII? The acceptance of death. How is that illustrated? Sephiroth rejects death and Aerith accepts death. That is the core conflict at play here, and always has been.
Sephiroth says that their world is destined to become part of the universe of death (the space beyond the edge of creation, as named in Ultimania), but he won't allow the world to end, nor will he allow Cloud to end. It's stated quite explicitly that his goal is to unify fractured spacetime and create eternity. Sephiroth's goal is to make an eternal world where nothing dies -- his Promised Land. Aerith's goal, as always, is to stop him, to live in the moment -- her Promised Land.
There's also the metanarrative element, which is quite simple. Just as the whispers in _Remake_ represent players' wishes to keep things the same, the unstable alternate worlds in _Rebirth_ represent players' wishes to change things. Ultimately those worlds are destined to end, and Aerith is destined to foil Sephiroth, meaning that players will also eventually have to accept reality -- Aerith and Zack died, and they died for a reason. There are things that you simply can't change. And this will reinforce the core theme of accepting death to players.
As for the alternate worlds, we essentially already have an explanation for them and how they operate. The Planet produces a multitude of worlds, rising from the Lifestream which is comprised of information -- thoughts and memories. Wishes and dreams people have produce these unstable worlds that deteriorate rapidly, bereft of spiritual energy, because hopes are simple, fleeting things.
Cloud was given Sephiroth's gift, so he can perceive these other worlds. And he's seeing the reality in which he saves Aerith and rejecting the reality in which he failed. Simple as that. Sephiroth wants to harness pain and suffering not necessarily to cause harm, but to convince Cloud to accept his interpretation of the Promise Land, a reality where nobody dies and nothing changes.
Personally i dont think he did lose the plot, especially when he said that "every body is wrong" and the part about breadcrumbs leading to dead ends.
You totally nailed it. I think there's a ton of head-spinning stuff with the insanity of the final chapter, but if you stay rooted in the themes of the story and characters like the devs have said, THIS is the conclusion we've got to come to.
In this same vein, how do you interpret Zack having autonomy among these worlds? I feel that that is what's tripping people up and causing a lot more overthinking. I think the best way I can think to tie it in is when Cloud falls into the lifestream in Mideel, and all the character-defining reveals and acceptance are happening, maybe this is also where the memory of the lifestream ifself becomes confused, rippling back through time and because Cloud's identity is confused with Zack's, that's why Zack is the one who is able to make decisions, splitting worlds and defying destiny. Maybe I'm off-base here, but I really fully agree with you with how this all will be simple and thematically resonant in the end. This is just the best way I can think of to factor Zack's experiences into that.
I think you might fundamentally misunderstand the themes of Final Fantasy VII but under the assumption that the game is about "the acceptance of death" and not celebrating life (though AC I'll give you as that entire movie is about Cloud accepting Zack and especially Aerith's deaths) this is a great theory. And I also agree that Max has gone a little off the deep end with how wild his theory has gotten.
Timestamps:
33:22 Max joins the stream!
Legend
Rebirth honestly might fuck with Tifa more than it does with Cloud. Tifa has her childhood friend doubt her just cause she survived, watches him go mad killing a bunch of guys then tries to murder her, gets swam around inside a weapon, nearly smooches Cloud while making up with him afterwards, gets hit with the rudest X to doubt by a ball riding grandpa, is forced to relive her worse trauma TWICE first revisiting Nibelhiem then more directly in the temple of the ancients, watches Cloud go insane again, her best friend gets murdered and now Cloud is full nutty mode and during ALL of this she has to be Clouds emotional support waifu WHILE nursing the emotional pain of Jessie Biggs and Wedge dying last game. Cloud atleast has the buffer of being coocoo for Cocoa Puffs if Cocoa Puffs was tall dark and sexy with beautiful hair, Tifa is a normal girl constantly getting beaten with trauma over and over and over again
Well we still have the reveal that they didn't really know each other as kids. That scene where child Tifa calls Cloud to play is explained in Ultimania. It's his recollection and not the truth. Probably Jenova again.
this... people are overly underestimating how tifa is broken mental health wise..
she hasnt fully recovered with her village trauma. she is in fact using cloud as a crutch to hold on to the last memories of that time when she was still the happy princess of the village. no answers, full of questions. like you said, she is a very normal girl swept along with all of this. thats why theres such a heavy emphasis on her being stuck with the past that almost every conversation she has with cloud is related one way or another on what happened in the village.
at the least cloud has links to whatever happened, tifa does not. she doesnt have closure on anything that happened and everything thats happening with cloud is just destroying whatever semblance of normalcy she is holding on to.
she would most probably break down first, shes gonna break down hard.
she and cloud are bound to fight like what happened at the start of rebirth but she would call him out in the most disrespectful way.
that would be used by sephi one way or another.
the gang would probably split at that point.
either tifa would leave or the gang would leave cloud or cloud would go coocoo and leave the gang.
when that happens, its the perfect time to insert zack.
aerith would help tifa along the way. theres no way in hell that they are setting up aerith and tifa being pillow besties without using it somehow in 7r3.
but then, i trully believe that the devs are using the community as a big crowd sourcing for what to do in 7r3.
There's a really interesting side in Cloud and Tifa's relationship in Remake series that is kinda toxic underneath all the tenderness they shared. Tifa clearly clung into Cloud because he is the only people from Nibelheim who survived beside her. Every conversation with him is about their hometown. It's kinda like, she doesn't want to move on. That's why it rattles her when Cloud shared his story about the incident that's different from her perspective. It'll shatter her well being if her crutch maybe isn't the one she knows from her village. So when she swam in the Livestream she kinda get the encouragement to confront, maybe from Omni-Aerith, because if not Cloud will be gone for good. And she did! When Cloud corroborated her story and being open about his own problem, she's willing to help and also move on from her trauma. But the ending happens and she's just lost now. Cloud's gone insane and she's recently just lost her best friend. She's probably gone back to her tendency to latch and keeping the broken mess of a person Cloud is because it is her coping mechanism. Cloud is the only prove to her that she's Tifa the little princess from Nibelheim. That she's the little girl who's waiting her SOLDIER prince to eventually save her like what the boy promised under the twinkling star.
Cloud and Tifa in Remake is a couple who's at first seems picture perfect, is a super fucked up because their inner deep trauma. They being together isn't going to help each party's we'll being because their innate desire to use one another to cope and run away into their own false realities. If they want to be together they really need to move on. To leave the Nibelheim incident behind for good once and for all.
Interesting. Now I'm interested to see that the lifestream sequence would be for bothe Cloud and Tifa and not just Cloud.
If I was Tifa I would’ve gone off it on Cloud! Like I want a full 30 minute cutscene of Tifa tearing into Cloud and never letting him get a word in, she deserves it!
We're never fully finishing rebirth are we?
probably not.
Nope
I bet we’ll feel the same after part 3
This got me 😪😴
You know things are about to get serious when Max says: "we need to talk" 😂
Best collab I've seen since it's an impromptu one 😁
Max: "So, anyway, we've got Omni-Cloud over here doin--"
Nico: "...wait wait, Omni-who-now?"
You reckon that scene with the two Naminés in KH CoM is going to happen with Aerith?
Like one's Omni Aerith and the other is Cloud's hallucination or worse Sephiroth/Jenova Aerith. And thet are trying to convince Cloud (Sora) to do two very different things while Cloud is confused.