I’d say mid to late 90s myself - they seemed to get the recipe just right - there were a lot of handsome cars around then, they were well equipped but not to the point of gimmickry, well built, still possible for any mechanic to maintain, and not too expensive to run. There was also more choice - not all manufacturers were on an SUV mission - you could still buy hatchbacks, saloons / sedans, and estates / station wagons.
@@frequentlycynical642 No they're not. It just seems that way when they're new. Anything with OBD2 becomes a nightmare once they get a bit of time and miles under them. Ease of repair matters, and newer cars are definitely not.
I found the 80s to early 2000's vehicles were the most reliable with just enough technology to be very reliable, but now they are so complicated with auto makers designing them with planned obsolescence. Just listen to Scotty Kilmer about how unreliable these modern cars have become.
@@opencarry3860 Indeed. I have a 2000 Buick Regal GS. Even by then, they were getting pretty complicated. I have the factory manuals, and they stack 6.5"! There are already over 3500 diagnostic codes in a 22 year old car!
It's factually wrong to say that R-134a is inferior to R-12. Both work very well, and R-134a actually works a bit better when comparing systems optimized for each. The reasons people think of R-134a as inferior are twofold. First, as a drop-in replacement for a system optimized for R-12, R-134a will in fact not work as well since it has slightly different pressure/temperature relationships and slightly different boiling temps at those different pressures. The second is the fact that car AC systems were progressively downsized, especially in 90s and early 2000s. This was to decrease parasitic drag on the engine and increase fuel economy. On those old school systems that everyone remembers so fondly, turning the AC on was like dropping a boat anchor behind you.
Yes ....for example i have BMW E38 from 95....it uses 1200 g of R134a....the facelift from 97, only halfe of that .....and modern cars 300 g....🙄but the modern sistem need every year to renew the gas and oil.....or else bye bye compressor becouse it uses smal quantity of oil too
I just thought I'd note that depletion of the ozone layer wasn't a global warming thing. The ozone layer absorbs ultraviolet light that would otherwise come down to the surface and cause damage to organic creatures like us(sunburn, skin cancer, cataracts). Hence, ozone depletion was an immediate public health concern. R134a doesn't deplete the ozone layer, but DOES function quite well as a greenhouse gas, trapping infrared light(and thus, heat) that the Earth would otherwise radiate into space. I believe R12 was ALSO a greenhouse gas, but a less powerful one than R134(which is INCREDIBLY good at trapping heat, somewhat ironically for a refrigerant). It is hard to check now, since that wasn't the concern when it was being phased out.
this is all a fiction about R12 ozone only has a half life of about 10 to 15 minutes and in water rich air maybe a few days check this out there must be some thing beyond my memory on the internet for sure the Wackos will want to say some thing other then what will put money in there banks and they want control
@@claycoates5056 R12 doesn't have a half-life. That's really only a thing for radioactive substances, and something with a half-life of fifteen minutes would be very radioactive indeed.
@@CptJistuce WOW I do not know where you went to school most refrigerants in deed do have a half life not sure of how long that would be but not long and Ozone dose have a half life and it is very short i have in the past checked on this you might want to look that up be-four making such a bold statement one can not just invent facts because thank you for coming back
@@CptJistuce half-life is just the time it takes for 50% of a substance to be depleted. Pollutants have a half-life in the atmosphere, drugs have a half-life in the body.
Yes, I lived in the era of R12 and owned many vehicles during that time. Yes R134a does does generally suck. No, those were not "smokers windows". They were vent or wing windows and because they directed air into the cabin they were not very useful for smokers when moving. Smoker's windows were generally a particular type of rear window that would open slightly to allow venting out of the cabin, you are unlikely to have them unless you're driving something from the late 30's or 40's.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the wing windows, if separate window was opened the right amount on one side or the other (depended on the car) you could get a positive outflow on those Wing windows making them especially good for ashing your cigarette.
On my F250 if I open the window about 120* the side toward the dash blows in fresh air, and has a lower pressure on the door panel side, it will pull ashes and smoke right out of the cab.
@@yetinother I'm not disagreeing with you other than to say that a vent window isn't the same thing as a smokers window even if they get the same result.
You're right that the wind wings were basically low budget a/c. However, they in fact are great for ashing cigarettes. If you just crack it open, it will actually draw air out along the back edge, which will basically suck the ash out. I loved the wind wings when it was raining and I still smoked.
I have worked with refrigerants since the 1980's. When R12 and R502 were being phased out, I obtained a free bottle of R12 for personal use. I am glad I did. I have a 50 year old Pontiac Grand Prix that I replaced the A/C compressor around 10 years ago. Fortunately, I had R12 to fill it back up and it has been working perfectly ever since. 4-5 years ago my kitchen refrigerator quit working. At the time, I was working servicing restaurant equipment. Smaller coolers use R134a and have a terrible habit of restricting the capillary tubes if the cleaning the condenser is neglected. When MY refrigerator quit, I got a brand new R12 compressor for $80 and change the capillary tube to match. Now my refrigerator will last another 20 years like the old refrigerators used to.
The new systems are just as 'cool' as the older ones that took R12. They just use larger components. Refilling older cars with R134a, however, does reduce performance. One exception to the ban on R12: aircraft fire extinguisher bottles for engines and cargo compartments. Because R134a is less efficient, it would have required larger, heavier bottles. Thus airframers and airlines are still allowed to use "Freon" in their Firex bottles.
R-134A has less heat capacity than R-12 so in a sense you're right. But even modern systems designed from the ground up as R-134A systems are terrible at idle because the R-134A just isn't that efficient. Not only do they need bigger compressors but more compressor cycles. You have to have the compressor turning 3x idle speed for vent temperature to start cooling to reasonable levels and only when recirculation is on will it stay that way. The old R-12 systems didn't care. Most didn't have recirc settings and kept the passenger compartments far more comfortable.
Yeah, modern R134a isn't as efficient as the old stuff but that doesn't mean older cars had colder aircon, newer cars make up for the inefficiency with bigger condensers and better compressors. The bad rep comes from people needing to convert to R134a with a system designed for R12
That “Will it blend” Blendtec reference was top notch. I literally jumped out of my seat in excitement that someone other then me references those videos from 2006! Lol. Earned an immediate like from me brother. “Don’t breathe this”.
After years of avoiding buying a Vitamix because of the price, then after a couple of years of watching Tom Dickson's WillItBlend series, I bought my Blendtec Total Blender in 2009 from a roadshow booth at Costco. If you use the soup cycle three times with a pint of water in the jar, it will be boiling halfway through the third cycle. It's never let me down, and the only thing I've had to replace was the original jar because the bearing's seal started to break down after about 10 1/2 years of use (still worked, but it had a very slow leak, and I was starting to notice the slightest rattle in the shaft, which would only worsen with more use). After years of singing praise of my Blendtec blender, a friend of mine (who the entire time kept saying "no blender is that good, and definitely not worth the price") broke down and bought one. The very next thing he said to me was "Best. Blender. Ever". Quite possibly the best $416.90 I ever spent, along with the $72.36 for the replacement jar over a decade later. For years, any time anyone asked me about that blender, I'd just send them to willitblend.com. It doesn't resolve anymore, but the videos can still be reached on YT and from the Blendtec page (if you know where to look). Tom Dickson stepped down as CEO back in 2013, though the Dickson Family still has a minority share in the company. Yes, the blenders really are that good...
I had a '91 S-10 pickup for a few years.... Because of it's R-12 AC system and it's comparatively-small interior space, its AC system was extremely efficient and EXTREMELY cold. Like, almost uncomfortably cold if set on MAX cooling. A put-on-a-coat kind of cold!
My buddies father had a 79 Chevy 4X4 1/2 ton and if you breathed right up at the vent you could see your breath. I've never seen air conditioning that cold ever again.
I had a 93 grand am which I’m assuming was r12. One day when me a several friends where cruising some country roads on a hot summer evening. We noticed that it was so cold that you could see your breath. Best A/C I’ve had in any car over the years
i have had several vehicles that use R12 late 50s on up . some would blow snow ( ice crystals ) out the vents but they all worked great. at the end of R12 i started using R12 replacement that worked ok but none of the 134 crap even holds a candle to R12. and yes propane works great BUT it is very flammable. i have seen 2 farm tractors burn to the ground because they blew a hose on the ac.
I was a car jockey at an Oldsmobile dealership. We used to eat our lunch in cars that were being service. This was around 1967. We would get in the old 50's cars with a/c, and eat lunch. The 50's cars had a/c better then the 60's. The compressor were huge. When you turned theva/c on the engine would slow down.
@@jamesmooney8933 Good old Frigidaire. The refrigerators from that era were pretty damn good too. My dad owned an auto repair shop and had an early 60s Frigidaire fridge in the back/break room. Thing ran like a top and kept shit cooooold. And yep, Fridays at noon, she was loaded up with beer.
I had the push out windshield on my 1928 Ford Model A , just like your car. It brought in a LOT of air to help cool, but there were also a few bees and other insects that made their way. Great channel Zack!
Random story: in the old days, Arab oil-rich sheiks would buy Cadillacs instead of Rolls-Royces. Cadillacs of old had massively oversized AC systems that could keep up with the desert heat. Rolls-Royce, being from a cool wet country, put tiny little AC systems in their cars. Nash was the first company with a fully integrated AC climate control system, partially since Nash also had a refrigerator division. The '68 AMC Ambassador was the first car with standard AC. AMC was, through some mergers, Nash. The Jeep Wrangler is the last car in the US to have AC optional. It's only optional on the base model 2-door, all others have it standard. Makes sense that in a Wrangler you don't always need AC. Even base model work trucks have it standard now, just like crank windows are increasingly rare.
Also most cars has under sized radiators in the past and now. This is the reason why toyota makes the most popular cars in the arab world now. They make special cars and even whole brands with bigger radiators and therefore can sell cars when BMW and merc cant. Not cars that are actually used anyway.
When I worked on a 70s RR it had factory air....it was an AC Delco system ....yanno, GM. Yup, RR bought it AC systems and its electronic ignition systems from GM before the Germans took over. Also, Cadillacs were more popular in Arab countries than RR BECAUSE NOT EVERY ARAB IS A BILLIONAIRE. If you haven't noticed, Cadillac is much cheaper than a RR.
Good ol' Nash-Kelvinator! I have a 54 Nash with factory a/c (R12). It cools fine. A little under engineered but it does the job. Shortcomings were corrected in 1955.
My 94 Taurus had r12 and it blew snow. My 95 Taurus had r134 and was cold but not like my 94. My 2020 ram has 1234yf and it takes about 2 to 3 minutes to get real cold air.
Since the patents on R134a expired it is no longer considered "good for the environment" and is being phased out for R1234yf, which is in fact a flammable gas that releases highly toxic fumes if it burns, and this is somehow supposed to be "good for the environment".
Whenever the patent runs out on a refrigerant it instantly becomes "harmfull to the environment" one way or another so the government can start taxing the old and patent holder selling the new.
r1234yf sounds like a chemical compound a kid would make up to sound smart. "Uh.... Yes of course I know what the A/C in my dad's car runs on! ...r1234yf!..." The fuck is this?
EXACTLY!!! I actually see people in here defending these new refrigerants. It's so obvious, when patents run out the old stuff is deemed "dangerous", and somehow the new stuff costs 10X what the old stuff costed.
When I took an HVAC class a few years back, the instructor would talk about having to replace all the freon if you have a leak in a 410-A system rather than top it off like you would a R-22 system. He would say 410-A is a three part blend so depending on where the leak is in the system, you don't know which part of the blend leaked. So now do you have 409-K or 352-C? I'm not sure if that's still the procedure, but I didn't like the thought of a customer having to replace 5 pounds of freon over a slight leak somewhere in the system.
It was either my 1978 Grand Prix or 1985 Grand Marquis, a couple times I was able to not only create condensation on the outside of the window by blowing a vent on it, but actually get it to crystallize and ice up.
Had an 89 civic that did that. I think it had some residual R12 in it & we just filled it with 134. Im positive it wasn't designed to get that cold from the factory. It was insane
Errr R12 is not Freeon gas, as Freeon gas is not CFC based, Freeon gas is R134a, but this dangerous in itself in otherway's, R12 was banned because of the CFC content, the CFC doing damage to the ozone layer, me being 45 years of age remember it being big news back in the late 80's. Freeon (R134) is also used in fire extinguishers because it's non flamable where as R12 is flamable.
R12 A/C is one thing GM did extremely well. I had a variety of mid 80s-early 90s GM cars back in the day, and if you left the a/c cranked it would get meat locker cold.
My mom had a '73 Chevy Impala. The AC in that would freeze me to death! I remember piling what ever was in the car on me to hide from the blast of cold air coming from the vents, even as it might be in the upper 90s outside.
They had some great compressors the GM A-6; Ford and AMC (and most aftermarket units) used the aluminum York and cast iron Tecumseh, and Chrysler had their venerable cast iron RV2. Then they started using the light weight (usually imported) compressors…
@@frequentlycynical642 You’re thinking of the old A6 compressor, which was a beast. Both in size and performance. But by the late 80s, the bigger GM vehicles had migrated to the R4 Harrison compressor, which was much smaller and every bit as effective. Smaller GM vehicles used the V5 Harrison, which was still the same performance and on par size wise with anything else on the market.
In Houston 1995 my friends dad owned a Volvo repair shop. They had a whole warehouse of R12 stocked up to future proof the business. Not sure how long it lasted. It was a huge room full of boxes of R12.
Locally, I know of a couple of guys who got a pallet of R-12 back then also, and still have a couple tanks of R-12 for use at the airport when a plane AC needs a "booster shot". A few classic car owners I know also have some . Not much call for it otherwise. Most guys that I know who DID stockpile a lot... still have most of it in their warehouse.
It was a better investment that gold if picked up in the later 60s. R12 was selling at RETAIL for $1/lb. It was used for "machine BB guns" and to pre-cool beer mugs. It also was used for inhalers and in shaving cream, paint spray, etc. For most of these things, the substitute was usually butane which is quite flammable. They toned down the flammable warnings and they usually are only on the fine print.
I remember R-12, but I also remember when air conditioning was an expensive option. It really didn't become a necessity until manufacturers removed the wing windows and vents to improve aerodynamics. Cars now require air conditioning because the ventilation on them is terrible.
Removal of the vent windows had little or nothing to do with improving aerodynamics, that was just a marketing ruse. Rather, it was done primarily as a cost savings (on the order of $40-$50 per vehicle) a savings for the manufacturer that was not passed on to the consumer.
I don't know why but UPS (brown delivery trucks) refused to put air conditioning in them and so the drivers have gotten really hot making deliveries this summer
@@dkjoses12 Not just that. The AC would be essentially useless when you're getting in and out of the truck 100+ times a day with the door wide open. It would be a refreshing cool breeze, but the cab would still be sweltering. Those drivers are making 60K on the low end with excellent benefits.
I have a 2007 Australian Ford Falcon with a big engine (Barra I6) and a big air conditioning compressor that uses modern gas... it has no problem cooling down my station wagon in the tropical and sub-tropical Australian sun (I actually never have the thermostat on full cold even in summer... usually just under half way). I think the problem is more that most modern cars have wussy little 2 litre engines with AC compressors the size of a can of beans and a condenser the size of a pizza box, rather than the gas used. Would love to cruise through death valley though.
Last time we drove through death valley it was 118 degress, at 11pm, long after sunset. Its a reason there's "death" in the name. Trip took several hours, and we only passed 2 or 3 cars the whole way through.
I had a 2019 Mazda3 Premium Hatchback until I traded it for a 2022 CX-5. Overall the ‘19 Mazda3 was great! But my biggest complaint was to poor performance of the A/C. It was noticeably worse then any of my previous cars. So far I’m happy to say that the A/C in my new CX-5 is more on par with what I would expect from the system.
I'm a Mazda tech. You shouldn't be having issues with any of the vehicles you guys have. If its under warranty, have your dealer look at it. Today's AC systems are fairly complex, and there's several issues that can cause poor cooling besides low freon. Also, check under the hood and see if you have 134a or 1234yf. He didn't mention it in the video, but most cars are now using 1234yf. Its extremely expensive. When it first came out a few years ago, it was $500 a pound. The price has come down since then, but its still very high. Do something before the warranty expires. Like most car companies, Mazda has a policy of no upselling warranty repairs. What that means is if a tech finds something wrong with your vehicle and the repair would be covered under warranty, they're not allowed to say anything to the customer. (This applies to everything, not just AC). You have to make the complaint. So, even if you're not sure about some type of issue, complain anyway.
In my automotive classes years ago I remember doing an analysis of my old refrigerant before changing my low pressure line and recharging. We found out like 20% R12, among ~5% of other refrigerants and some hydrocarbons. This all found in a 2004 maxima which takes 134a normally
I used to have a 1978 Chevy van, it had the R 12 factory air-conditioning in it. However when I bought the car it did not have the compressor installed. When I was deciding to put the AC back into operation a friend of mine recommended that I use R 152 a, Which basically is those canned air duster’s that you get. Believe it or not that actually works pretty good as a conversion. That van blew 36° air out through the vents even in the desert.
I'm sorry to say that you've got it wrong. The refrigerant has nothing to do with the cooling capacity of the system as designed. The R-12 systems everyone here are talking about being so much colder in the comments were also designed during a time when systems were designed with a larger margin of error (ie more btu of cooling drawing more horsepower off the engine) combined with the addition of electric fans which were half the cfm of a belt driven fan. They also got far worse mpg while the compressor was engaged. A properly designed system using either type of refrigerant with the same design cooling power will move the same amount of heat. I could talk all day about this but I digress. Source: I'm an electro/mechanical tech that used to design and prototype refrigeration systems.
I would agree. I remember how the gas mileage went way down when you turned on your air compressor back in the day and they were much heavier compressors in fact the entire cooling system was just bigger and bulkier and the capacity of freon was Greater by volume in the system. In short they were over engineered. But having said that I doubt seriously are 12 and 134 or equal any more than 87 octane and 93 octane gasoline or equal
Yep, seems like a whole lot of delusion in this video and the comments. In my experience the reliability of R12 systems generally sucked and even when in good working order they were no better than today's R134a systems. The best performing AC of any car I've owned was a 1995 240SX, an R134a system.
Yes modern cars (from 2000s till now) do have precission in a/c design and capacity. But its slow to cool the cabin. Also when evap just slightly dirty it would hard too keep cabin cool if the car have no window tint instaled
@@keegenm.6154 I can believe that. Older cars from GM (particularly 80s and 90s) seemed to be of better quality than those of later model years. My 94 Cavalier had about 188,000 miles on the clock and ran super-well before I sold it.
I don't know, man, all of my newer cars have cooled the cabin pretty freakin' well. I guess if I drove one back-to-back with an old R-12 system, I'd notice a difference. Also, I'm in an area where 90 F is about as hot as it gets, and that only rarely.
I've never been in an R12 car but in most tiny 4 cylinder cars I've been in, I've had to pretty much keep it on max once it got around 87 until maybe 30 minutes into the trip. Some SUVs I've been in cooled down much faster though, maybe it's because of their larger condenser and compressor.
@@mattwolf7698 My ‘19 Honda Ridgeline can keep the cabin in the upper 60s on a 100+ degree day, but it’s basically maxed out at all times. In my old ‘88 Fiero or ‘92 Achieva, you couldn’t leave it on max for that long. Your fingers would be borderline frost bitten. I used to leave the a/c on and direct the air to the floor vents to keep….beverages…cold. And it made a huge difference.
I had a 1984 Ford Thunderbird as my first car, around 1989, in Texas. The AC system leaked lots, especially after it killed the HR980 compressor. Fortunately for me, R-12 was still legal and easily obtainable just across the border in Mexico (I was born and raised in a border town). I was really bummed when my dad handed down his 1992 T-Bird to me in 1995, as 1992 was the last year of the R-12 A/C system in the Thunderbird. Fortunately, I never had A/C issues in the newer T-Bird...
Since 2016 many car manufactures have now moved to R1234YF Refrigerant, BMW has been using it for awhile, interesting thing is the redesigned their AC Systems to max the use of the new refrigerant and the High & Low Side pipes are now combined, its a crazy design but works very well. Other fun fact is R12 is NOT illegal and still used, the EPA only said it can not be used in "personnel automobiles" the military as well as some niche industries still use R12.
My 92 Prelude is still running R12 it works great. That being said, my 97 Odyssey and 00 Passat with R134a work equally as good. All 3 are still running with all the original a/c components. Just amazing to me.
I think it's because the system is designed for one or the other. I can't speak for an R12 system running R12, but my Uncle Frank once owned a 1990 Cadillac Brougham, and it just didn't feel all that cold. Then he traded that in for a brand new 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 HD, and the air conditioning was much colder. I would presume the Cadillac had been converted to R134a at some point before he purchased the car, as he purchased it used, and the car had been involved in a deer collision at a high rate of speed.
Propane is actually the refrigerant of choice for a lot of large industrial establishments. It's a lot more cheap and a lot more efficient than most of the purpose-made refrigerant chemicals. But for obviously flammable reasons, systems equipped for propane as a refrigerant are not available for domestic use. As for the electronic duster cans, it's because aerosol sprays usually use refrigerants as the spray carrier. Duster cans are just aerosol sprays without the payload chemical. Although I don't see how that would work because they still use R134a due to the same laws that banned R12's use in the first place.
Nash Motors made the first pratical low cost air conditioning with all components under the hood. This came out in 1954. This is the type all cars use today.
You're half right. Converting an older R12 system to R134 isn't that efficient. The system was designed for R12. My 2018 Santa Fe with R134 cools as good as any R12 system I've ever seen. A lot of that driving is between Palm Springs and Phoenix. With the CC set on 73° it gets comfortable fast and levels off after a few minutes. A properly designed AC system can run with R134 with no issues.
My experience with my mother's 2016 Kia Sportage tells me that the Hyundai corporation wouldn't know how to design and A/C system if it reached up and slapped them right in the face. Hers takes forever to get the vehicle even somewhat acceptable and even then it never blows cold. The vents that come out of the console to blow to the back blow colder than than the ones in the front. And supposedly there is nothing wrong with that A/C. My 2018 Ford Transit Connect is better but still sucks ass. You basically need it to be running at max fan speed and on max a/c to keep it cold in the van. Before the a/c went bad in my '04 Silverado it was actually fine. When I had an '01 Honda CR-V the a/c did okay. And my '14 Prius V does really well. But you couldn't beat me and make me believe that Hyundai knows what they are doing with one
Sometime in the mid 80’s my uncle bought a Camry when he was living in Michigan. He told me that when he got the car the salesman tried up selling him on the A/C but he said he didn’t need it. They really needed to sell that car because it had been sitting on the lot so he got the A/C thrown in for free. At the time my uncle was a practicing attorney then he was asked to teach a couple of law classes one summer at Tulane in New Orleans and he said he thanked God that he had that A/C.
r12 was great, much more efficient than todays 134a. I know the ozone has healed some, but the question is: did it heal from R134a or was it the laws that required recovery of the gas by technicians? you see during the transition phase it was made mandatory to recover the gas from the system. before that many would vent it directly to the air when they had to work on them. so how much is because we are smarter and recover the gas compared to the switch? we will never know.
They used R-12 as a propellant in aerosol cans, which is quite literally spraying it into the atmosphere. At the very least, it was necessary to ban that usage.
R-12 is heavier than air. I never made it up to the "Ozone layer". It was all a gimmick to scare people into changing all refrigerants to R134A. There were lots of vehicles on the road using R-12 that suddenly 'needed' to be changed. Dupont made Trillions off of it, while there was another reason to scare witless people.
@@mikee2923 Yes. I have heard that the reason R12 was deemed unsafe is b/c (either DuPont or Dow which ever one invented it) Their patent had run out and they had to create something new for a new 20 year patent.
My 86 Mazda RX-7 FC was refitted with an AC from a Turbo model and converted to R134A. Cools like hell, but not for long. The compressor blew up. An AC expert told me that next time I should come to him, he will fill the system with a Propane / Butane / ... mixture and this should work very well and reliable.
86 13b with an explosive A/C system? that maaaaay not be the amazing idea the mech thinks it is. at least make sure you remove the fuel pressure damper first! lol.
The information in this video lacks the actual technical understanding of a/c systems. A system built for R134A works very well with R134A. I just serviced such a system yesterday and you would not stay in the cab if it was stuck on max cold and high fan because you would be too cold. I have also done many R12 to R134A retrofits. MOST of the time they work well. Biggest problem in most cases is people throw on a set of adapters and charge them with R134A. This is not a proper retrofit and may times will not cool well. The few retrofits that I have seen not cool well are primarily due to the condenser being too small to be able to dissipate enough heat. It is important to understand how an air conditioning system works before attempting to speak intelligently about any related component.
I posted mine before I read yours. You are CORRECT. Here is my post: GM always had the best A/C system. By the 70s Ford even started using their components. Rolls Royce used GM A/C systems. Yes, I have had MANY Buicks and Cadillacs with R12 and they will freeze the balls off a brass monkey. I still have one 1970 Buick with its original R12 system. However the best A/C I have ever had is my current 1995 Buick Roadmaster with R134a. One reason why R134a gets a bad rap is because of the people who convert their R12 cars to R134a. They typically do not do more than evacuating the system, making sure the oil is all flushed out and then changing the ports. Some go one step further and change the valving system (either suction throttling valve---STV or Pilot Operated Absolute---POA valve) to make sure correct pressures are met for R134a. So far so good. But one crucial component that needs to be changed is the condenser. You just cannot expect R134a to work will with those old 3/8" tubing in the R12 condensers. You need to move to a high efficiency condenser, which has MUCH smaller tubing and many more and finer fins. Some people can get away without changing the hoses. R134a needs better barriers to avoid leaking because the molecules are smaller. Kind of like even a surgical face mask will not prevent the covid virus from passing through. Most people are not willing to pay $2000-$3000 to properly convert from R12 to R134a so if they do it at all, they do it half-assly. Heck some people, even here in Tucson won't maintain their A/C systems in cars less than 10-15 years old. I see them driving around town in 105F or hotter days with all their windows down.
Not necessarily true. Older cars were designed for cooling comfort and not efficiency like today’s cars. The compressors were much larger not only in size but in their displacement. The old GM A/C compressors had 6 pistons in them if I remember correctly. Also newer cars will cycle the compressor when the temperature of the evaporator gets too cold when in the older cars the compressor ran non stop as long as you had the A/C on. Modern cars have fans that circulate more air than older cars did, I’ll give them that but the older cars would get bone chillingly cold if you allowed them but newer cars not so much.
@@mikee2923 Wrong about compressors not cycling on older cars. My 60s and 70s Fords with AC had a thermostat sensing the evaporator core temperature and they would cycle to prevent the coils from freezing over. Modern cars pretty much control the system in the same way.
@@milstarr My 1975 Pontiac Grand Prix doesn’t cycle the compressor off unless the outside air temperature is below freezing. It runs continuously by observation and according to the factory service manual. I also had a 76 Oldsmobile Toronado that worked the exact same way. They both had what was called a superheat switch that would blow a thermal fuse and shut the compressor off if the refrigerant charge got too low. Otherwise the compressor clutch would stay energized at all times during air conditioning and defrost in above freezing outdoor air temperatures. Perhaps I should have specified GM cars.
@@mikee2923 That is not completly true, while it may not cycle the compressor it has a valve that does the same effect without the need to disingageing it if the evaporator temperature goes below freezing, the reason is that if allowed to run continusly in more moderate weather the evaporator would freeze up the moisture and thus block the flow of air and slow down heat transfer, thus making the AC work less efficently. If any AC systems blows ice or snow, its has a malfucntion.
In the old days, with cars having only manual ventilation speed and direction controls, an AC with R12 was actually often too much. Some cars had good knobs for mixing cold with hot air, but on other cars it was either too much hot or too much cold air. And you wanted cold air in the summer, but if you turned the ventilation to you head, you got a flew next day. If you turned it to your feet, you better had on socks. Most people ended op pressing the AC switch of on and off in intervals while driving. It always was either too hot or too cold in the car. Modern ac maybe don't get as cold, but they are far more convenient. You can drive your car in the summer in a business suit, you can also drive it in a bikini. Set it to the temprature you want, press auto and never press it again till you arrive. The new one wins this one.
You don't live in the South do you? Modern A/C in cars can be utter dog shit in the dead of summer barely doing enough to keep you cool with it set on full blast.
@@ram89572 No, I am from Northern Europe. Belgium, near Germany. Our summers indeed doesn't become as hot as yours. We do have a hotter then usual summer right now. It takes a bit for the little Honda Jazz its AC to cool the interior down. But in 38 C weather it takes like a quarter to bring it down the interior to 24 C and then the car's AC has no problem keeping it at that temprature. With a bigger engine to operarate the AC, I think the cooling would go faster as well.
@@FrightfulAccountant Well that would depend on them using a bigger a/c setup in general. Some vehicles are definitely better than other but living in a basically subtropical climate where I need a/c about 10 months out of the year I can tell you they ain't what they used to be
@@ram89572 I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you. He's talking about the old R12, not the newer systems. Also, most cars are coming with 1234yf, not 134a. YF cools better than 134.
I've owned several older cars over the years and the AC always worked pretty good. Never had to fiddle with them. I don't know why newer cars have all that auto-temp garbage in them. It shouldn't be necessary.
Boy, I have a bunch of R12, never knew it was worth $$$ till today. My dad had a old Oldsmobile that had an AC that would blow ice cubes---well almost but it was real cold.
At this point I don't feel it's the refrigerant that matters but the stupid computer controllers and modules that put fuel efficiency and "smart" function ahead of everything else. If one sensor doesn't work or one flap sticks all hell breaks loose in the system. My older Mercedes has an R134 system and it freezes the hell out of the car and my Mom's Nissan Kicks with a tiny system with R1234YF also blows really cold but you have to turn all that "auto" garbage off because it never works right. Just set it yourself manually and it's fine. Many newer luxury cars have so many different settings and programs for the climate control and the end result is it never does what you want it to do.
Eeeyup. though they do that more for comfort than economy in most implementations - the idea is to make air coming out of the vent closer to the target temperature rather than go for the full frozen face effect. IME, this works quite well, but in very hot and sunny weather I do find myself having to bump the set temperature down one or two degrees.
I had mixed results with r134a; on my van it's the coldest AC I've ever had, whereas on my SUV it's wimpy and awful. I also had a car with r12 and it didn't really put out that much cold air. I think it really depends on how well the whole system is maintained or designed. For example my van has two discrete AC units (front + back) therefore two condensers and blower motors, so I think that helps keep it a lot colder than on my SUV.
That's also because it's not really the refrigerant that makes the difference, but the size of the system. Back then it was normal to see car ACs hold 1500-2000g of refrigerant, now cars have 300-700g systems usually, for fuel efficiency. A truck with a big r134a system is gonna be much colder than a smaller car with a smaller R12 system
Just a few things. Comparing R12 to R134a is slightly difficult. (Disclaimer I don’t work with aircons ; rather with fridges but they use the same refrigeration gases). So a system that uses 1 gas cannot be directly compared to another because the gases aren’t interchangeable 1 to 1. Generally a gas change would warrant a change in compressor and expansion valve ( depending on the system). This means that you’re comparing completely different refrigeration systems in models of cars that use different gases. Where an R12 system may have been bigger, more power hungry and actually less energy efficient in the end, it may have cooled better. But manufacturers probably chose to cut costs and install smaller systems along with the gas change. Lastly PROPANE is not a crazy gas to use. It’s called R290. Butane is also used as a refrigerant and is called R600.
If you wanna compare, look at R-290 versus R-12. Propane looks even better than freon from a performance standpoint. It's just flammable, like the gasoline powered vehicle you're in. Reminder that camper vans and such drive around with much much bigger tanks of propane for heat and fuel.
R290 isnt comparable to R12 nor R134a, because it runs at 100PSI higher pressures, and heats up less when you compress it and it needs an recuperator in the suction line, rather R290 is a good replacement for R22 and R407c RC270, or cyclopropane is a real replacement for R12, it heats up a lot when compressed has similar pressures (42low/240high for Rc270 vs 35low/220hi for R12) and 20% higher volument latent heat of evaporation
@@renacimientoargentino7515 True. Great comment. 290 is great for R22, not R12. Isobutane is closer, even. But I've not heard of cyclopropane as a refrigerant, very interesting. I like the idea of using lower pressure refrigerants since they're far less likely to leak when there's smaller potential energy to do so.
@@mikafoxx2717 @mikafoxx2717 the issue of isobutane is that it has too little pressure and needs a Compressor twice the size, and doesnt heat as much nor cools down as much when compressed and expanded. RC270 or cyclopropane has similar characteristics to R12 but better, higher critical temperature, lower pressure ratio (high side vs low side ratio) higher discharge temperature, and a 25% higher volumetric cooling effect, and doesnt have a temperature slide unlike mixed refrigerants
All my vehicles had R12 in the air conditioning from factory. Two of them still do. It is also in my water coolers in the house and my refrigerator. I have a large collection of R12 for service. I did convert my truck to R134 and it does get plenty cold. However, it puts more of a load on the engine than R12 did. Now as for propane it does not work as a substitute. It replaces R22. R12 is equivalent to butane, which I used in my rusted out wood powered truck. It never exploded.
I had the R12 system in my 1990 Mazda 323 converted this past June and have had to bring it in twice since then to have it repaired. What exactly makes this retrofit process so difficult?
R134A is more corrosive than R12. He hints at that early on in the video, that it is easy on all parts. In the days of R12, it wasn't commonplace for the refrigerant to eat through the evaporator of condenser cores like what has to be eliminated now when there's a leak in a system.
@@1SqueakyWheel This is not true. R12 and R134a are both halogenated hydrocarbons and are chemically inert. The biggest problem is people who do retrofits don't do them properly. You are supposed to replace ALL rubber seals, compressor oil, and the accumulator and/or filter drier as 134a requires the use of hygroscopic (attracts water) POE lubricant which CAN react with the water in the head of the compressor and decompose into caustic substances that will attack aluminum and cause leaks where the material is thinnest (evaporator and condenser sections if they are micro-channel design) and cause seals to harden losing their sealing properties and cause leaks there, most notably the compressor shaft. These bad retrofits are what give 134a conversions a bad rap. Given that a compressor shaft seal is under positive pressure it normally will not leak until very late in life (
@@sivalley I lived through the whole gamut as well, and you are correct on all points, except that none of those points were what I was referring to. I even converted my Cutlass in the late 90's to 134a, with proper advice on how to do it correctly. New dryer, blew new oil through the lines and cores for waste in order to remove all traces of old oil. The compressor had been leaking, so I installed a fresh one during the conversion. It cooled well enough... not as ice cold as the r12 system before it, but I was satisfied enough. It worked great until I quit driving the car years later and sold it. I agree 100% on the fact most people seem to use fresh air all the time. Sure it's good for certain situations, but not efficient... more energy is expended in the river of condensation from the constant influx of humid air instead of maintaining a gradually drier cabin. I wish more people understood this principle, or cared... especially the crew members I often drive around who can't seem to stop themselves from cracking their windows or outright rolling them down after I've already gotten the air inside nice and dry, no matter how many times we go over it. My main point still stands though... R12, despite many similarities to 134a, compressed and expanded with less energy input to the compressor. And it was indeed less detrimental to non-ferrous metals, especially those comprising thin walls. For that reason, pinholes in cores were nowhere nearly as common in the days of r12 as they are now. If it happened, the cause was usually relegated to damage or defect, and nowadays it's considered wear. We can only work with what we've got, so I'm not preaching against its use, as I'm a big user of it myself. I won't lie though... I do miss the good ole days. 😁
@@1SqueakyWheel Fair enough good sir. And you reminded me of two other things I wanted to point out; the dang metering devices for 12 and 134a while fairly similar we're also fairly different and forgetting to change it would make systems behave undersized on top of old heat exchangers used significantly thicker tube walls for reliability, efficiency be damned, compensated by making systems be oversized for their duty. All in all cheap and energy efficient have all but reduced reliability to "long enough to get past warranty"
The refrigerant today is better for the atmosphere as the old gas was harmful for the same reason. Tip, you can take a automotive or diesel course to get approved to purchase a canister. You can purchase a small can at Oreilly without the need to be approved. To be honest while the old stuff worked well, once it's gone you'll have to do research to find it, just be sure to find that leak in your AC system first or you'll be throwing your money away.
At that point, I think it would be more ethical to convert your air conditioning system to use a different refrigerant. I am not a climate change warrior or anything, but I would kind of feel weird still using something that was so aggressive that it was banned for its effects on the ozone layer. I know that you're only 1 person, and it won't reopen the ozone layer hole, but if you gotta go to the ends of the earth to find something, maybe that's a sign you should stop using it? A more hyperbolic example is leaded gasoline. There are still obscure places that still sell it, but if your car was old enough to benefit from using it, would you use it? Despite knowing the effects of leaded gas?
My friend had a 1973 Oldsmobile with a 455 engine. No car I've ever been in before or since has come close to how cold that thing could blow air. It was truly amazing. On Max A/C, you could barely stand to take a direct blast from the vents.
I still have a brand new BMW R12 to R134a AC conversion kit somewhere in my basement. It consists of a new dryer, two adapters for the fill ports and a sticker. You (or more precisely the work shop) were supposed to drain the system from refrigerant and AC-oil. Then remove the compressor, heat it and turn it by hand to remove the oil from the compressor (R12 and R134a AC-oil is not compatible). Replacing the dryer (were obviously also a lot of AC-oil is trapped) and all O-ring gaskets in the entire AC-System (they absorb some of the AC-oil). Then put everything together and charge it with R134a. The sticker would be placed over the original AC-info sticker to inform of the altered refrigerant and its (different) amount.
I had an '85 Monte Carlo back in the day. I was driving around Lake Havasu AZ with my dad on a 120 degree day when my dad says "can you turn down that a/c a little?" Never had a car since with a/c like that !
Every older car from the r12 era my family had would get super cold and start throwing ice at you on humid days... I can't think of a single time any of my r134a vehicles attempted double duty as a snocone maker
I had a 1987 K5 Blazer and converting it from R12 to R134A was just changing a couple of fittings and it worked fine. That said, I have very vivid memories of my mom picking me up from school in our family's 1993 Taurus wagon, and the car was so cold inside it was like stepping into a freezer.
5:03 The concerns about the ozone layer were not related to global warming. Ozone blocks dangerous ultraviolet light that causes skin cancer and has other nasty effects. The Vienna Convention and Montreal Protocol to ban them were signed by essentially every country on earth.
Dad had an r-12 license back in the day and the stuff to set it up with. Once you had all the parts in place and hoses attached you had to hook up a set of gauges to the compressor. Then you attached a vacuum pump to the fill hose and suck out all air. That vacuum was also used to pull the freon out of the can which meant any leak killed it. Fun times
I live in Phoenix, R12 is superior to r134 it's colder and operates at lower pressure so components last longer. The worst ac systems were early r134a cars and converted R12 systems.
It’s actually pretty easy to pronounce once you break it down into its sub components. Di Chloro Di Fluoro Methane. In other words it is a molecule of methane, CH4, in which two hydrogen atoms have been replaced with two chlorine atoms, and the other two hydrogen atoms have been replaced with two fluorine atoms. It’s actually non-toxic so long as it is not exposed to flame.
I was in a parking lot with my then new 89 Accord. When the a/c compressor would kick in, a fog would come out of the vents. At a standstill, hot parking lot, at idle, I had to turn the fan down.
yes I remember R-12. My 88 Toyota Corolla used it. now I have a 2012 Camry, and it uses R-134A. I think it does a pretty job in cooling off the interior of my car.
R134a is good for house refrigerators but it's just not efficient enough for AC, until some years ago some house AC in my country came with R22 and they work so much better than the newer ones that comes with R410a.
I had a r12 filled 90's civic. That leaked out due to age and had it filled with R134a. Absolutely hopeless. I filled it with spray duster and the magic cooling returned. In hindsight r134a was never going to work as the condenser was far too small.
My sister had an 86 Mazda 626 4 door sick shift well into the mid 90's, and her boyfriend at the time did that trick, and it work till she got rid of the car in 97, due to a 2nd steering column going bad, but the inside of the car always smelled funny after the A/C fix 😅
@@jamminwrenches860 yep, and with additional bittering agents added to try to keep kids from huffing the stuff, which leaves a nasty invisible residue on the stuff you spray it on which is why when I clean my PC these days I use a mini shop vac in Blower mode, and that's why my sister's car smelled funny, and sometimes you can even taste the bittering agents in the air depending on the brand, and which one they used.
Putting propane in an air conditioner within a car would be like someone putting hydrogen into an airship to make it float... *Nobody's stupid enough to do that*
My 2014 is350 probably has one of the best car A/Cs I've ever used. Can just about freeze you in there on hot days, ofc I usually just set the thermostat at 70F° and it keeps the car comfortable for me. (The automatic temperature control works remarkably good). I can't say the same for other cars with r134a. Guess Lexus/ Toyota nailed it somehow.
Butane gas or propane/butane blend also works well. Remember you have a fuel tank under the back seat, a little bit of propane is not that bad in comparison 😎
7:13 Propane is also called R290, and is in serious use as a refrigerant by manufacturers, not just by people struggling to get their R12 car AC working. Many small home air conditioners and mini-refrigerators use it. Look for the "WARNING: Flammable refrigerant used!" stickers all over them. A quick research skim suggests that it's an almost-ideal replacement for R22 as well. Please don't try this at home though. (Get a professional to do it.) I think there's rules on how much capacity a system can have before it's no longer able to be designed for R290 due to the risk of a leak causing a Very Bad Day.
Great substitute for R12 which actually works better is a blend of propane and isobutane (keeps the pressure lower) I've used it in my 81 Datsun, 86 Volkswagen, and now my son's 92 Miata, so I have real world experience with it. Before some know it all blow hard says "but it's flammable and dangerous" , I worry more about the 14 gallons of gas in my fuel tank, than 16 ounces of propane. It's common for refrigerators in Europe to use butane as the refrigerant.
My dad had a 64' F100 that had the AC until the late 90s. I think it was put in the 70s or 80s. It would get so cold, i swear you could see your breath.
The thing that I missed about R12 the most as a mechanic (UK) was in fault diagnosis. With R12 if the suction line line was at 32psi, the evaporator temperature was at or near to 32°F freezing. With R12 there was quite close correlation between pressure and temperature, this changed with the new-fangled 134a. Edit: I would add though that modern (ish) systems have been improved to the point that even this last summer where we have had temps over 100°F (unusual for the UK) it was still possible to get my 5 series BMW too cold for comfort.
If you have the correct charge of 134a wben you replace R12 there is very little difference. generally the replacement happens when the R12 charge is to low to operate properly. So 134 is wonderful making the ac function again.
My 93 Tempo was one of the last vehicles to have R12. That was the best car I ever had when it came to a cold A/C system. You could freeze your back passengers on a 95* degree day!
Domestic refrigerators do (although recently they’ve been made using hydrocarbon refrigerants instead), but home ac units (central and window) used R22 before 2010, and have since used R410A instead.
Normal people would buy R12 in much smaller cans (same size as the R134a cans) That large bottle was for garages that worked on cars, or dealers. I don't notice much difference in the cooling power between R12 and R134a. Back in the day, you could add R12 to your system by looking at a sight glass in the system, to check if you were low. If you saw bubbles in the sight glass, you could add R12 until there were no more bubbles. With R134a you need pressure gauges to not overfill the system. PS. I still have one of those small cans of R12.
R134 is less efficient at cooling, but can normally be corrected by just making said system slightly beefier. I also wonder why they don’t add sight glasses to car air conditioners.
One of my cars that I got a few years after I started working in my early 20s was an Oldsmobile 1988 Ninety-Eight. I bought it for $300 (yes, $300!!) because the guy took it to a shop and the shop said the engine had no compression (and it needed one of the windows replaced). Dad brings it home and parks it right outside the house and I remember coming home one day and I walk into the house and suddenly I hear the car roar to life and he's out there revving it and I turn and look at mom and said "I thought they said the engine was bad?" and mom tells me "oh, no, they just had the plugs wired in the wrong order" ... lol. Anywho, the A/C was also dead and I had to have an R134a conversion done on it and they also put blacklight dye in it just in case it was also leaking (it never leaked). Was a nice car that I drove for a few years.
R-12 was supposedly causing ozone destruction. How a gas heavier than air travels so high up in the atmosphere is still a mystery. The original theory also claimed R-12 was so stable that it had a 100-year life span in the atmosphere. If the theory was correct, that would mean R-12 created in 1924 is now starting to break down and the "hole" would be increasing for the next 100 years mirroring production rates/gas release. That means around 2090 is when the hole would start to shrink.
I'm old enough to remember my parents "topping up with Freon" even well after it wasn't the thing they were using. Hell, I still say freon, and I know it's not what my vehicles use.
A tip with those little vent windows... if for whatever emergency you need to break a window to get in a vehicle, don't break that one. Just because it's the smallest window doesn't mean it's the cheapest to replace... in some cases it's the most expensive and hardest to find.
I have '88 Bertone X1/9 like a fiat. A month ago in Boise it was 103, pretty cool inside with A/C on low..I did a test..turn off A/C..interior like an oven in seconds. Freon 12 seems to work very well after all these years.
The main issue with R-134a at the R-12 phaseout was the phase change temperatures and pressures. Basically they operated at different pressures within the same system. So putting 134 into a 12 system would make it warmer. However, many manufacturers had set screws under the pressure sensor fittings that allowed the pressure switch setting to be changed. Set it to be triggered higher and the 134 systems were colder than when they had 12 in them. There was a thought at the time that manufacturers did not like that, so they removed the adjustment, citing cost savings.
I converted a 1989 Ford Probe to R134. At the time I was able to source a pressure switch that was calibrated for R134. The system blew just as cold while the car was moving but not quite as good as R12 when the car was in traffic.
I remember first finding out how "safe" r134 was when trying to convince the dealership there was a leak. The service tech said woah get away from that gas it's dangerous. This was after saying it was not leaking and confirming yes it has the "safe" r134. It totally seized the next day btw and cost them replacement of the entire system besides venting itself into the atmosphere. It was covered under warranty and was roughly 6x the cost had they actually done a proper leak test.
If your a/c system used r13 and was leakibg, they would have said the same thing. You wouldn't want to inhale that either. Your pount is moot and useless.
Ah yes “Freon “. It’s naturally found in volcanic eruptions. One eruption puts more Freon in the atmosphere than all of our a/c combined since the 50’s.
My dad stockpiled a bunch of it right before it got outlawed, still useful for a '68 Cougar he has that never gets driven. I used some in a '76 280z I used to own and it was cold I suppose, but the blower motor was pretty weak. I owned a few other cars from the R12 era but they were all ratty projects with compressor/condenser problems or just totally gutted. I sweated a lot in the cars I owned in my late teens and early 20s I guess.
I had a '97 honda before and it used R12. It really was very cold. If set to max, even at noon, moisture would build up on the windows and windshield because of how cold it was inside and how hot it was outside. Outside temp was around 32 - 35 degrees celsius. But now, in my 2022 toyota, i'm still sweating even if the AC is set to the coldest setting. The 90s was really the golden era in the automotive world.
04:17 The whole point of CFC's was that they are chemically inert. Breathing them is harmless, so long as you're also getting oxygen in the mix. The bad part of CFC's is that once they reach the upper atmosphere, they get broken apart by radiation from the sun, making the byproducts of that breakdown very chemically reactive. And the thing most readily available to react with up there is ozone. That's why CFC's deplete the ozone layer, which is crucial for life on earth due to the fact that it blocks almost all of the harmful ultraviolet radiation (the ionizing kind) from the sun.
CARS WERE BETTER IN THE 80’s STICKER NOW AVAILABLE!
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No. They. Weren't. I'm 77, seen a lot of cars in my years. Modern cars are light years more reliable than the old ones.
I’d say mid to late 90s myself - they seemed to get the recipe just right - there were a lot of handsome cars around then, they were well equipped but not to the point of gimmickry, well built, still possible for any mechanic to maintain, and not too expensive to run. There was also more choice - not all manufacturers were on an SUV mission - you could still buy hatchbacks, saloons / sedans, and estates / station wagons.
@@frequentlycynical642 No they're not. It just seems that way when they're new. Anything with OBD2 becomes a nightmare once they get a bit of time and miles under them. Ease of repair matters, and newer cars are definitely not.
I found the 80s to early 2000's vehicles were the most reliable with just enough technology to be very reliable, but now they are so complicated with auto makers designing them with planned obsolescence. Just listen to Scotty Kilmer about how unreliable these modern cars have become.
@@opencarry3860 Indeed. I have a 2000 Buick Regal GS. Even by then, they were getting pretty complicated. I have the factory manuals, and they stack 6.5"! There are already over 3500 diagnostic codes in a 22 year old car!
Zack: "So, behind me is a 1985 Chevy Cavalier wagon. And, it still runs ..."
Me: "WOW!"
Zack: "...on R12."
Me: "wow" 😂
My ‘89 Cavalier still ran on R12 when I sold it in 2004.
I got an 88 Corvette running R12
Old cavaliers will run for ever, just as long as you change the oil and don't live up north where they rot out
@@mightyloaf it’ll run but that’s about it, those cars are junkkkk.
It's factually wrong to say that R-134a is inferior to R-12. Both work very well, and R-134a actually works a bit better when comparing systems optimized for each. The reasons people think of R-134a as inferior are twofold. First, as a drop-in replacement for a system optimized for R-12, R-134a will in fact not work as well since it has slightly different pressure/temperature relationships and slightly different boiling temps at those different pressures. The second is the fact that car AC systems were progressively downsized, especially in 90s and early 2000s. This was to decrease parasitic drag on the engine and increase fuel economy. On those old school systems that everyone remembers so fondly, turning the AC on was like dropping a boat anchor behind you.
Thank you. I made a similar comment.
Yes ....for example i have BMW E38 from 95....it uses 1200 g of R134a....the facelift from 97, only halfe of that .....and modern cars 300 g....🙄but the modern sistem need every year to renew the gas and oil.....or else bye bye compressor becouse it uses smal quantity of oil too
BS... R12 was cooler
@@TheRazvy1990 Ha economical. My E32 had 2000g for R12, now down to 1500 for R134a conversion
@@alexmercer8042 yes i know ....any differences ?
R134a is already being phased out in newer cars with R1234yf. It's supposed to be less harmful to the ozone layer. BUT it's extremely flammable.
I was about to say this. It's also like 1/10th the CO2 equivalent as r134a.
There are rumors they are going to get rid of yf now too.
Then just you some damn propane at this point
And EXPENSIVE!
most new fridges are using what is basically butane now....
I just thought I'd note that depletion of the ozone layer wasn't a global warming thing. The ozone layer absorbs ultraviolet light that would otherwise come down to the surface and cause damage to organic creatures like us(sunburn, skin cancer, cataracts). Hence, ozone depletion was an immediate public health concern.
R134a doesn't deplete the ozone layer, but DOES function quite well as a greenhouse gas, trapping infrared light(and thus, heat) that the Earth would otherwise radiate into space.
I believe R12 was ALSO a greenhouse gas, but a less powerful one than R134(which is INCREDIBLY good at trapping heat, somewhat ironically for a refrigerant). It is hard to check now, since that wasn't the concern when it was being phased out.
Finally someone bringing this point up!
this is all a fiction about R12 ozone only has a half life of about 10 to 15 minutes and in water rich air maybe a few days
check this out there must be some thing beyond my memory on the internet
for sure the Wackos will want to say some thing other then what will put
money in there banks and they want control
@@claycoates5056 R12 doesn't have a half-life. That's really only a thing for radioactive substances, and something with a half-life of fifteen minutes would be very radioactive indeed.
@@CptJistuce WOW I do not know where you went to school most refrigerants in deed do have a half life
not sure of how long that would be but not long and Ozone dose have a half life and it is very short i have in the past checked on this you might want to look that up be-four making such a bold statement
one can not just invent facts because thank you for coming back
@@CptJistuce half-life is just the time it takes for 50% of a substance to be depleted. Pollutants have a half-life in the atmosphere, drugs have a half-life in the body.
Yes, I lived in the era of R12 and owned many vehicles during that time. Yes R134a does does generally suck. No, those were not "smokers windows". They were vent or wing windows and because they directed air into the cabin they were not very useful for smokers when moving. Smoker's windows were generally a particular type of rear window that would open slightly to allow venting out of the cabin, you are unlikely to have them unless you're driving something from the late 30's or 40's.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the wing windows, if separate window was opened the right amount on one side or the other (depended on the car) you could get a positive outflow on those Wing windows making them especially good for ashing your cigarette.
On my F250 if I open the window about 120* the side toward the dash blows in fresh air, and has a lower pressure on the door panel side, it will pull ashes and smoke right out of the cab.
@@yetinother I'm not disagreeing with you other than to say that a vent window isn't the same thing as a smokers window even if they get the same result.
You're right that the wind wings were basically low budget a/c. However, they in fact are great for ashing cigarettes. If you just crack it open, it will actually draw air out along the back edge, which will basically suck the ash out. I loved the wind wings when it was raining and I still smoked.
Never heard of them being called smoker windows. Everyone I knew as a kid called them suicide windows. Might be a regional thing.
I have worked with refrigerants since the 1980's. When R12 and R502 were being phased out, I obtained a free bottle of R12 for personal use. I am glad I did. I have a 50 year old Pontiac Grand Prix that I replaced the A/C compressor around 10 years ago. Fortunately, I had R12 to fill it back up and it has been working perfectly ever since. 4-5 years ago my kitchen refrigerator quit working. At the time, I was working servicing restaurant equipment. Smaller coolers use R134a and have a terrible habit of restricting the capillary tubes if the cleaning the condenser is neglected. When MY refrigerator quit, I got a brand new R12 compressor for $80 and change the capillary tube to match. Now my refrigerator will last another 20 years like the old refrigerators used to.
The new systems are just as 'cool' as the older ones that took R12. They just use larger components. Refilling older cars with R134a, however, does reduce performance.
One exception to the ban on R12: aircraft fire extinguisher bottles for engines and cargo compartments. Because R134a is less efficient, it would have required larger, heavier bottles. Thus airframers and airlines are still allowed to use "Freon" in their Firex bottles.
Some small planes still burn leaded gasoline as well. Seems that small plane owners have a pretty good lobby.
@@genehart261 you can also go to a small municipal airport with a jerry-can, and buy 99 octane AVgas for your vintage musclecar :)
@@audvidgeek can you put that in "anything"?
R-134A has less heat capacity than R-12 so in a sense you're right. But even modern systems designed from the ground up as R-134A systems are terrible at idle because the R-134A just isn't that efficient. Not only do they need bigger compressors but more compressor cycles. You have to have the compressor turning 3x idle speed for vent temperature to start cooling to reasonable levels and only when recirculation is on will it stay that way. The old R-12 systems didn't care. Most didn't have recirc settings and kept the passenger compartments far more comfortable.
Yeah, modern R134a isn't as efficient as the old stuff but that doesn't mean older cars had colder aircon, newer cars make up for the inefficiency with bigger condensers and better compressors.
The bad rep comes from people needing to convert to R134a with a system designed for R12
That “Will it blend” Blendtec reference was top notch. I literally jumped out of my seat in excitement that someone other then me references those videos from 2006! Lol. Earned an immediate like from me brother. “Don’t breathe this”.
I miss that channel
Ah the early days of TH-cam.
After years of avoiding buying a Vitamix because of the price, then after a couple of years of watching Tom Dickson's WillItBlend series, I bought my Blendtec Total Blender in 2009 from a roadshow booth at Costco. If you use the soup cycle three times with a pint of water in the jar, it will be boiling halfway through the third cycle. It's never let me down, and the only thing I've had to replace was the original jar because the bearing's seal started to break down after about 10 1/2 years of use (still worked, but it had a very slow leak, and I was starting to notice the slightest rattle in the shaft, which would only worsen with more use).
After years of singing praise of my Blendtec blender, a friend of mine (who the entire time kept saying "no blender is that good, and definitely not worth the price") broke down and bought one. The very next thing he said to me was "Best. Blender. Ever".
Quite possibly the best $416.90 I ever spent, along with the $72.36 for the replacement jar over a decade later. For years, any time anyone asked me about that blender, I'd just send them to willitblend.com. It doesn't resolve anymore, but the videos can still be reached on YT and from the Blendtec page (if you know where to look). Tom Dickson stepped down as CEO back in 2013, though the Dickson Family still has a minority share in the company.
Yes, the blenders really are that good...
What I understand about Freon and the development of it as we know our R12 it was developed to help make the first hydrogen bomb's.
God I loved “will it blend??!”
I had a '91 S-10 pickup for a few years.... Because of it's R-12 AC system and it's comparatively-small interior space, its AC system was extremely efficient and EXTREMELY cold. Like, almost uncomfortably cold if set on MAX cooling. A put-on-a-coat kind of cold!
My buddies father had a 79 Chevy 4X4 1/2 ton and if you breathed right up at the vent you could see your breath. I've never seen air conditioning that cold ever again.
I had a 93 grand am which I’m assuming was r12. One day when me a several friends where cruising some country roads on a hot summer evening. We noticed that it was so cold that you could see your breath. Best A/C I’ve had in any car over the years
I had a 92 Silverado with R12. Ice box cold. Loved it.
I remember the old R12 systems would actually freeze the condensation around the vents in your dashboard.
I had a 03 Silverado single cab, worked more reliably than our fridge
i have had several vehicles that use R12 late 50s on up . some would blow snow ( ice crystals ) out the vents but they all worked great. at the end of R12 i started using R12 replacement that worked ok but none of the 134 crap even holds a candle to R12. and yes propane works great BUT it is very flammable. i have seen 2 farm tractors burn to the ground because they blew a hose on the ac.
I was a car jockey at an Oldsmobile dealership.
We used to eat our lunch in cars that were being service. This was around 1967. We would get in the old 50's cars with a/c, and eat lunch. The 50's cars had a/c better then the 60's. The compressor were huge. When you turned theva/c on the engine would slow down.
@@jamesmooney8933 Good old Frigidaire. The refrigerators from that era were pretty damn good too. My dad owned an auto repair shop and had an early 60s Frigidaire fridge in the back/break room. Thing ran like a top and kept shit cooooold. And yep, Fridays at noon, she was loaded up with beer.
@@zlinedavid Yes, alot of old things were better.
Did you use real 134a or the crap that they sell at auto parts stores which is an azeotropic blend?
@@freddaniali freeze 12 was the best replacement for R12 at the time
I had the push out windshield on my 1928 Ford Model A , just like your car. It brought in a LOT of air to help cool, but there were also a few bees and other insects that made their way. Great channel Zack!
Nothing like having a random bird flailing inside the window trapped as you go down the road swerving trying to get it out.
@@joetroutt7425 lmao this is gold
Random story: in the old days, Arab oil-rich sheiks would buy Cadillacs instead of Rolls-Royces. Cadillacs of old had massively oversized AC systems that could keep up with the desert heat. Rolls-Royce, being from a cool wet country, put tiny little AC systems in their cars. Nash was the first company with a fully integrated AC climate control system, partially since Nash also had a refrigerator division. The '68 AMC Ambassador was the first car with standard AC. AMC was, through some mergers, Nash.
The Jeep Wrangler is the last car in the US to have AC optional. It's only optional on the base model 2-door, all others have it standard. Makes sense that in a Wrangler you don't always need AC. Even base model work trucks have it standard now, just like crank windows are increasingly rare.
Also most cars has under sized radiators in the past and now. This is the reason why toyota makes the most popular cars in the arab world now. They make special cars and even whole brands with bigger radiators and therefore can sell cars when BMW and merc cant. Not cars that are actually used anyway.
When I worked on a 70s RR it had factory air....it was an AC Delco system ....yanno, GM. Yup, RR bought it AC systems and its electronic ignition systems from GM before the Germans took over. Also, Cadillacs were more popular in Arab countries than RR BECAUSE NOT EVERY ARAB IS A BILLIONAIRE. If you haven't noticed, Cadillac is much cheaper than a RR.
@@MrSloika back in the m
day they were just as expensive as a Rolls Royce
The Sheik then drove it and rocked the Casbah. Apparently Sharif didn't like it.
Good ol' Nash-Kelvinator! I have a 54 Nash with factory a/c (R12). It cools fine. A little under engineered but it does the job. Shortcomings were corrected in 1955.
My 94 Taurus had r12 and it blew snow. My 95 Taurus had r134 and was cold but not like my 94. My 2020 ram has 1234yf and it takes about 2 to 3 minutes to get real cold air.
Not sure why the RAM takes so long. Maybe doesn’t engage the compressor as quickly?
Since the patents on R134a expired it is no longer considered "good for the environment" and is being phased out for R1234yf, which is in fact a flammable gas that releases highly toxic fumes if it burns, and this is somehow supposed to be "good for the environment".
Whenever the patent runs out on a refrigerant it instantly becomes "harmfull to the environment" one way or another so the government can start taxing the old and patent holder selling the new.
r1234yf sounds like a chemical compound a kid would make up to sound smart.
"Uh.... Yes of course I know what the A/C in my dad's car runs on! ...r1234yf!..."
The fuck is this?
@@Talondrone R1234wtf more like
EXACTLY!!! I actually see people in here defending these new refrigerants. It's so obvious, when patents run out the old stuff is deemed "dangerous", and somehow the new stuff costs 10X what the old stuff costed.
I have 10 years into HVAC and I will keep using R-22 in my house for as long as I can. Any new refrigerant sucks. 410-A is a prime example.
I'm not sure I agree, R-32 is looking like a decent candidate.
@@johnrehwinkel7241 I haven't dealt with r-32 yet but I hear it's the next one to be used when 410-A starts to phase out in 2025.
i got windows ac with 410-a it get room very cold . i sure it different in central ac units
When I took an HVAC class a few years back, the instructor would talk about having to replace all the freon if you have a leak in a 410-A system rather than top it off like you would a R-22 system. He would say 410-A is a three part blend so depending on where the leak is in the system, you don't know which part of the blend leaked. So now do you have 409-K or 352-C? I'm not sure if that's still the procedure, but I didn't like the thought of a customer having to replace 5 pounds of freon over a slight leak somewhere in the system.
@@jonathonsanders2508 not sure why you heard that I top off 410a all the time there is no blend
It was either my 1978 Grand Prix or 1985 Grand Marquis, a couple times I was able to not only create condensation on the outside of the window by blowing a vent on it, but actually get it to crystallize and ice up.
Had an 89 civic that did that. I think it had some residual R12 in it & we just filled it with 134. Im positive it wasn't designed to get that cold from the factory. It was insane
THE NEXT EPISODE! Cigarette Lighters September 20th!
Errr R12 is not Freeon gas, as Freeon gas is not CFC based, Freeon gas is R134a, but this dangerous in itself in otherway's, R12 was banned because of the CFC content, the CFC doing damage to the ozone layer, me being 45 years of age remember it being big news back in the late 80's. Freeon (R134) is also used in fire extinguishers because it's non flamable where as R12 is flamable.
R12 A/C is one thing GM did extremely well. I had a variety of mid 80s-early 90s GM cars back in the day, and if you left the a/c cranked it would get meat locker cold.
All with the help of the biggest, heaviest compressor in the industry! LOL!
My mom had a '73 Chevy Impala. The AC in that would freeze me to death! I remember piling what ever was in the car on me to hide from the blast of cold air coming from the vents, even as it might be in the upper 90s outside.
@@frequentlycynical642 who cares, it worked.✌️
They had some great compressors the GM A-6; Ford and AMC (and most aftermarket units) used the aluminum York and cast iron Tecumseh, and Chrysler had their venerable cast iron RV2.
Then they started using the light weight (usually imported) compressors…
@@frequentlycynical642 You’re thinking of the old A6 compressor, which was a beast. Both in size and performance. But by the late 80s, the bigger GM vehicles had migrated to the R4 Harrison compressor, which was much smaller and every bit as effective. Smaller GM vehicles used the V5 Harrison, which was still the same performance and on par size wise with anything else on the market.
In Houston 1995 my friends dad owned a Volvo repair shop. They had a whole warehouse of R12 stocked up to future proof the business. Not sure how long it lasted. It was a huge room full of boxes of R12.
Locally, I know of a couple of guys who got a pallet of R-12 back then also, and still have a couple tanks of R-12 for use at the airport when a plane AC needs a "booster shot". A few classic car owners I know also have some . Not much call for it otherwise. Most guys that I know who DID stockpile a lot... still have most of it in their warehouse.
It was a better investment that gold if picked up in the later 60s. R12 was selling at RETAIL for $1/lb. It was used for "machine BB guns" and to pre-cool beer mugs. It also was used for inhalers and in shaving cream, paint spray, etc. For most of these things, the substitute was usually butane which is quite flammable. They toned down the flammable warnings and they usually are only on the fine print.
I remember R-12, but I also remember when air conditioning was an expensive option. It really didn't become a necessity until manufacturers removed the wing windows and vents to improve aerodynamics. Cars now require air conditioning because the ventilation on them is terrible.
Removal of the vent windows had little or nothing to do with improving aerodynamics, that was just a marketing ruse. Rather, it was done primarily as a cost savings (on the order of $40-$50 per vehicle) a savings for the manufacturer that was not passed on to the consumer.
@@nephetula that's bull crap. Makes me mad.
I hate what modern vehicles are today; what they've become.
A car with no AC on a hot day is gonna be hot with or without wing vents.
@@bigjared8946 yes but when you’re going fast they help tremendously
Depends on the heat. If the temperature outside is hugher than body temperature it won't cool you
I don't know why but UPS (brown delivery trucks) refused to put air conditioning in them and so the drivers have gotten really hot making deliveries this summer
Cost savings. Money is the name of the game.
@@dkjoses12 Not just that. The AC would be essentially useless when you're getting in and out of the truck 100+ times a day with the door wide open. It would be a refreshing cool breeze, but the cab would still be sweltering. Those drivers are making 60K on the low end with excellent benefits.
I have a 2007 Australian Ford Falcon with a big engine (Barra I6) and a big air conditioning compressor that uses modern gas... it has no problem cooling down my station wagon in the tropical and sub-tropical Australian sun (I actually never have the thermostat on full cold even in summer... usually just under half way).
I think the problem is more that most modern cars have wussy little 2 litre engines with AC compressors the size of a can of beans and a condenser the size of a pizza box, rather than the gas used.
Would love to cruise through death valley though.
Last time we drove through death valley it was 118 degress, at 11pm, long after sunset. Its a reason there's "death" in the name.
Trip took several hours, and we only passed 2 or 3 cars the whole way through.
This is very true. I have the new Ford Bronco and the A/C is SUPER cold but that is because of the very large front grill and condenser.
G Day from Australia, enjoy your BF wagon
As an hvac tech, you're absolutely correct. The refrigerant that it was designed for doesn't effect capacity. Conversions do though.
I had a 2019 Mazda3 Premium Hatchback until I traded it for a 2022 CX-5. Overall the ‘19 Mazda3 was great! But my biggest complaint was to poor performance of the A/C. It was noticeably worse then any of my previous cars. So far I’m happy to say that the A/C in my new CX-5 is more on par with what I would expect from the system.
Yeah real happy with my new cx9 my 2014 Mazda 6 gt was nice and cold though. Maybe it was just the cx5 that year
I'm in Australia, my wife's 2016 Mazda3 a/C is very good. Maybe it was your car.
I live in southeast Louisiana and my wife's 2020 Mazda3 hatch has a great air conditioner.
I have a 2018 Mazda 3 GT and the AC is freezing lol!
I'm a Mazda tech. You shouldn't be having issues with any of the vehicles you guys have. If its under warranty, have your dealer look at it. Today's AC systems are fairly complex, and there's several issues that can cause poor cooling besides low freon. Also, check under the hood and see if you have 134a or 1234yf. He didn't mention it in the video, but most cars are now using 1234yf. Its extremely expensive. When it first came out a few years ago, it was $500 a pound. The price has come down since then, but its still very high. Do something before the warranty expires.
Like most car companies, Mazda has a policy of no upselling warranty repairs. What that means is if a tech finds something wrong with your vehicle and the repair would be covered under warranty, they're not allowed to say anything to the customer. (This applies to everything, not just AC). You have to make the complaint. So, even if you're not sure about some type of issue, complain anyway.
In my automotive classes years ago I remember doing an analysis of my old refrigerant before changing my low pressure line and recharging. We found out like 20% R12, among ~5% of other refrigerants and some hydrocarbons. This all found in a 2004 maxima which takes 134a normally
Cars were cooler in the 1980’s
I used to have a 1978 Chevy van, it had the R 12 factory air-conditioning in it. However when I bought the car it did not have the compressor installed.
When I was deciding to put the AC back into operation a friend of mine recommended that I use R 152 a, Which basically is those canned air duster’s that you get. Believe it or not that actually works pretty good as a conversion. That van blew 36° air out through the vents even in the desert.
r152a is my go to retrofit refrigerant as it has a very similar pressure curve to r12 and is much cheaper than sourcing r12.
I'm sorry to say that you've got it wrong. The refrigerant has nothing to do with the cooling capacity of the system as designed. The R-12 systems everyone here are talking about being so much colder in the comments were also designed during a time when systems were designed with a larger margin of error (ie more btu of cooling drawing more horsepower off the engine) combined with the addition of electric fans which were half the cfm of a belt driven fan. They also got far worse mpg while the compressor was engaged. A properly designed system using either type of refrigerant with the same design cooling power will move the same amount of heat. I could talk all day about this but I digress. Source: I'm an electro/mechanical tech that used to design and prototype refrigeration systems.
I would agree. I remember how the gas mileage went way down when you turned on your air compressor back in the day and they were much heavier compressors in fact the entire cooling system was just bigger and bulkier and the capacity of freon was Greater by volume in the system. In short they were over engineered. But having said that I doubt seriously are 12 and 134 or equal any more than 87 octane and 93 octane gasoline or equal
Yep, seems like a whole lot of delusion in this video and the comments. In my experience the reliability of R12 systems generally sucked and even when in good working order they were no better than today's R134a systems. The best performing AC of any car I've owned was a 1995 240SX, an R134a system.
Yes modern cars (from 2000s till now) do have precission in a/c design and capacity. But its slow to cool the cabin. Also when evap just slightly dirty it would hard too keep cabin cool if the car have no window tint instaled
My suggestion would be to do a video essay regarding early touch screens in cars. GM had the best examples in the 1980s.
I own an 89 reatta and the touchscreen works mint
The old CRT displays on the Riviera/Reatta/Toronado/Eldorado and a few others. Yep, worked surprisingly well.
@@keegenm.6154 I can believe that. Older cars from GM (particularly 80s and 90s) seemed to be of better quality than those of later model years. My 94 Cavalier had about 188,000 miles on the clock and ran super-well before I sold it.
I don't know, man, all of my newer cars have cooled the cabin pretty freakin' well. I guess if I drove one back-to-back with an old R-12 system, I'd notice a difference. Also, I'm in an area where 90 F is about as hot as it gets, and that only rarely.
Must be nice. Was 108 with the heat index in Tampa Bay today, I rely on really good tint and AC to survive 🤣
I've never been in an R12 car but in most tiny 4 cylinder cars I've been in, I've had to pretty much keep it on max once it got around 87 until maybe 30 minutes into the trip. Some SUVs I've been in cooled down much faster though, maybe it's because of their larger condenser and compressor.
@@mattwolf7698 My ‘19 Honda Ridgeline can keep the cabin in the upper 60s on a 100+ degree day, but it’s basically maxed out at all times. In my old ‘88 Fiero or ‘92 Achieva, you couldn’t leave it on max for that long. Your fingers would be borderline frost bitten. I used to leave the a/c on and direct the air to the floor vents to keep….beverages…cold. And it made a huge difference.
I had a 1984 Ford Thunderbird as my first car, around 1989, in Texas. The AC system leaked lots, especially after it killed the HR980 compressor. Fortunately for me, R-12 was still legal and easily obtainable just across the border in Mexico (I was born and raised in a border town). I was really bummed when my dad handed down his 1992 T-Bird to me in 1995, as 1992 was the last year of the R-12 A/C system in the Thunderbird. Fortunately, I never had A/C issues in the newer T-Bird...
Since 2016 many car manufactures have now moved to R1234YF Refrigerant, BMW has been using it for awhile, interesting thing is the redesigned their AC Systems to max the use of the new refrigerant and the High & Low Side pipes are now combined, its a crazy design but works very well. Other fun fact is R12 is NOT illegal and still used, the EPA only said it can not be used in "personnel automobiles" the military as well as some niche industries still use R12.
We've already moved on to R744 on the cars I service.
The A/C in my 2016 F30 has been great. Not issues in triple digit heat indexes.
My 1988 corvette still has a R12 system and it’s still working to this day, love that cold air
My 92 Prelude is still running R12 it works great. That being said, my 97 Odyssey and 00 Passat with R134a work equally as good. All 3 are still running with all the original a/c components. Just amazing to me.
I think it's because the system is designed for one or the other. I can't speak for an R12 system running R12, but my Uncle Frank once owned a 1990 Cadillac Brougham, and it just didn't feel all that cold. Then he traded that in for a brand new 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 HD, and the air conditioning was much colder. I would presume the Cadillac had been converted to R134a at some point before he purchased the car, as he purchased it used, and the car had been involved in a deer collision at a high rate of speed.
Propane is actually the refrigerant of choice for a lot of large industrial establishments. It's a lot more cheap and a lot more efficient than most of the purpose-made refrigerant chemicals. But for obviously flammable reasons, systems equipped for propane as a refrigerant are not available for domestic use.
As for the electronic duster cans, it's because aerosol sprays usually use refrigerants as the spray carrier. Duster cans are just aerosol sprays without the payload chemical. Although I don't see how that would work because they still use R134a due to the same laws that banned R12's use in the first place.
Nash Motors made the first pratical low cost air conditioning with all components under the hood. This came out in 1954. This is the type all cars use today.
My first 18 wheeler had the smokers window although I don’t smoke it was great for bringing in fresh air. I wish it would come back.
You're half right. Converting an older R12 system to R134 isn't that efficient. The system was designed for R12. My 2018 Santa Fe with R134 cools as good as any R12 system I've ever seen. A lot of that driving is between Palm Springs and Phoenix. With the CC set on 73° it gets comfortable fast and levels off after a few minutes. A properly designed AC system can run with R134 with no issues.
My experience with my mother's 2016 Kia Sportage tells me that the Hyundai corporation wouldn't know how to design and A/C system if it reached up and slapped them right in the face. Hers takes forever to get the vehicle even somewhat acceptable and even then it never blows cold. The vents that come out of the console to blow to the back blow colder than than the ones in the front. And supposedly there is nothing wrong with that A/C. My 2018 Ford Transit Connect is better but still sucks ass. You basically need it to be running at max fan speed and on max a/c to keep it cold in the van. Before the a/c went bad in my '04 Silverado it was actually fine. When I had an '01 Honda CR-V the a/c did okay. And my '14 Prius V does really well. But you couldn't beat me and make me believe that Hyundai knows what they are doing with one
Sometime in the mid 80’s my uncle bought a Camry when he was living in Michigan. He told me that when he got the car the salesman tried up selling him on the A/C but he said he didn’t need it. They really needed to sell that car because it had been sitting on the lot so he got the A/C thrown in for free. At the time my uncle was a practicing attorney then he was asked to teach a couple of law classes one summer at Tulane in New Orleans and he said he thanked God that he had that A/C.
r12 was great, much more efficient than todays 134a. I know the ozone has healed some, but the question is: did it heal from R134a or was it the laws that required recovery of the gas by technicians? you see during the transition phase it was made mandatory to recover the gas from the system. before that many would vent it directly to the air when they had to work on them. so how much is because we are smarter and recover the gas compared to the switch? we will never know.
They used R-12 as a propellant in aerosol cans, which is quite literally spraying it into the atmosphere. At the very least, it was necessary to ban that usage.
@@zacksstuff I agree with you on that but there are ulterior motives behind banning R-12, R-11, R-22 etc.
R-12 is heavier than air. I never made it up to the "Ozone layer". It was all a gimmick to scare people into changing all refrigerants to R134A. There were lots of vehicles on the road using R-12 that suddenly 'needed' to be changed. Dupont made Trillions off of it, while there was another reason to scare witless people.
@@mikee2923 Yes. I have heard that the reason R12 was deemed unsafe is b/c (either DuPont or Dow which ever one invented it)
Their patent had run out and they had to create something new for a new 20 year patent.
My 86 Mazda RX-7 FC was refitted with an AC from a Turbo model and converted to R134A. Cools like hell, but not for long. The compressor blew up. An AC expert told me that next time I should come to him, he will fill the system with a Propane / Butane / ... mixture and this should work very well and reliable.
FR12 works great
86 13b with an explosive A/C system? that maaaaay not be the amazing idea the mech thinks it is. at least make sure you remove the fuel pressure damper first! lol.
@@Born_Stellar Fuel pressure regulator and damper are already new, because I know to many burned down cars because of that.
The information in this video lacks the actual technical understanding of a/c systems. A system built for R134A works very well with R134A. I just serviced such a system yesterday and you would not stay in the cab if it was stuck on max cold and high fan because you would be too cold. I have also done many R12 to R134A retrofits. MOST of the time they work well. Biggest problem in most cases is people throw on a set of adapters and charge them with R134A. This is not a proper retrofit and may times will not cool well. The few retrofits that I have seen not cool well are primarily due to the condenser being too small to be able to dissipate enough heat. It is important to understand how an air conditioning system works before attempting to speak intelligently about any related component.
I posted mine before I read yours. You are CORRECT. Here is my post:
GM always had the best A/C system. By the 70s Ford even started using their components. Rolls Royce used GM A/C systems. Yes, I have had MANY Buicks and Cadillacs with R12 and they will freeze the balls off a brass monkey. I still have one 1970 Buick with its original R12 system. However the best A/C I have ever had is my current 1995 Buick Roadmaster with R134a. One reason why R134a gets a bad rap is because of the people who convert their R12 cars to R134a. They typically do not do more than evacuating the system, making sure the oil is all flushed out and then changing the ports. Some go one step further and change the valving system (either suction throttling valve---STV or Pilot Operated Absolute---POA valve) to make sure correct pressures are met for R134a. So far so good. But one crucial component that needs to be changed is the condenser. You just cannot expect R134a to work will with those old 3/8" tubing in the R12 condensers. You need to move to a high efficiency condenser, which has MUCH smaller tubing and many more and finer fins. Some people can get away without changing the hoses. R134a needs better barriers to avoid leaking because the molecules are smaller. Kind of like even a surgical face mask will not prevent the covid virus from passing through. Most people are not willing to pay $2000-$3000 to properly convert from R12 to R134a so if they do it at all, they do it half-assly. Heck some people, even here in Tucson won't maintain their A/C systems in cars less than 10-15 years old. I see them driving around town in 105F or hotter days with all their windows down.
Not necessarily true. Older cars were designed for cooling comfort and not efficiency like today’s cars. The compressors were much larger not only in size but in their displacement. The old GM A/C compressors had 6 pistons in them if I remember correctly. Also newer cars will cycle the compressor when the temperature of the evaporator gets too cold when in the older cars the compressor ran non stop as long as you had the A/C on. Modern cars have fans that circulate more air than older cars did, I’ll give them that but the older cars would get bone chillingly cold if you allowed them but newer cars not so much.
@@mikee2923 Wrong about compressors not cycling on older cars. My 60s and 70s Fords with AC had a thermostat sensing the evaporator core temperature and they would cycle to prevent the coils from freezing over. Modern cars pretty much control the system in the same way.
@@milstarr My 1975 Pontiac Grand Prix doesn’t cycle the compressor off unless the outside air temperature is below freezing. It runs continuously by observation and according to the factory service manual. I also had a 76 Oldsmobile Toronado that worked the exact same way. They both had what was called a superheat switch that would blow a thermal fuse and shut the compressor off if the refrigerant charge got too low. Otherwise the compressor clutch would stay energized at all times during air conditioning and defrost in above freezing outdoor air temperatures. Perhaps I should have specified GM cars.
@@mikee2923 That is not completly true, while it may not cycle the compressor it has a valve that does the same effect without the need to disingageing it if the evaporator temperature goes below freezing, the reason is that if allowed to run continusly in more moderate weather the evaporator would freeze up the moisture and thus block the flow of air and slow down heat transfer, thus making the AC work less efficently. If any AC systems blows ice or snow, its has a malfucntion.
In the old days, with cars having only manual ventilation speed and direction controls, an AC with R12 was actually often too much. Some cars had good knobs for mixing cold with hot air, but on other cars it was either too much hot or too much cold air. And you wanted cold air in the summer, but if you turned the ventilation to you head, you got a flew next day. If you turned it to your feet, you better had on socks. Most people ended op pressing the AC switch of on and off in intervals while driving. It always was either too hot or too cold in the car. Modern ac maybe don't get as cold, but they are far more convenient. You can drive your car in the summer in a business suit, you can also drive it in a bikini. Set it to the temprature you want, press auto and never press it again till you arrive. The new one wins this one.
You don't live in the South do you? Modern A/C in cars can be utter dog shit in the dead of summer barely doing enough to keep you cool with it set on full blast.
@@ram89572 No, I am from Northern Europe. Belgium, near Germany. Our summers indeed doesn't become as hot as yours. We do have a hotter then usual summer right now. It takes a bit for the little Honda Jazz its AC to cool the interior down. But in 38 C weather it takes like a quarter to bring it down the interior to 24 C and then the car's AC has no problem keeping it at that temprature. With a bigger engine to operarate the AC, I think the cooling would go faster as well.
@@FrightfulAccountant Well that would depend on them using a bigger a/c setup in general. Some vehicles are definitely better than other but living in a basically subtropical climate where I need a/c about 10 months out of the year I can tell you they ain't what they used to be
@@ram89572 I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you. He's talking about the old R12, not the newer systems.
Also, most cars are coming with 1234yf, not 134a. YF cools better than 134.
I've owned several older cars over the years and the AC always worked pretty good. Never had to fiddle with them. I don't know why newer cars have all that auto-temp garbage in them. It shouldn't be necessary.
Boy, I have a bunch of R12, never knew it was worth $$$ till today. My dad had a old Oldsmobile that had an AC that would blow ice cubes---well almost but it was real cold.
oh yeah man. throw it on ebay
At this point I don't feel it's the refrigerant that matters but the stupid computer controllers and modules that put fuel efficiency and "smart" function ahead of everything else. If one sensor doesn't work or one flap sticks all hell breaks loose in the system. My older Mercedes has an R134 system and it freezes the hell out of the car and my Mom's Nissan Kicks with a tiny system with R1234YF also blows really cold but you have to turn all that "auto" garbage off because it never works right. Just set it yourself manually and it's fine. Many newer luxury cars have so many different settings and programs for the climate control and the end result is it never does what you want it to do.
Eeeyup. though they do that more for comfort than economy in most implementations - the idea is to make air coming out of the vent closer to the target temperature rather than go for the full frozen face effect. IME, this works quite well, but in very hot and sunny weather I do find myself having to bump the set temperature down one or two degrees.
I had mixed results with r134a; on my van it's the coldest AC I've ever had, whereas on my SUV it's wimpy and awful. I also had a car with r12 and it didn't really put out that much cold air. I think it really depends on how well the whole system is maintained or designed. For example my van has two discrete AC units (front + back) therefore two condensers and blower motors, so I think that helps keep it a lot colder than on my SUV.
That's also because it's not really the refrigerant that makes the difference, but the size of the system. Back then it was normal to see car ACs hold 1500-2000g of refrigerant, now cars have 300-700g systems usually, for fuel efficiency. A truck with a big r134a system is gonna be much colder than a smaller car with a smaller R12 system
I have always thought the R12-Ozone thing was bogus. No one knew R12 caused ozone depletion until the patent expired. What a coincidence!!
Just a few things.
Comparing R12 to R134a is slightly difficult.
(Disclaimer I don’t work with aircons ; rather with fridges but they use the same refrigeration gases).
So a system that uses 1 gas cannot be directly compared to another because the gases aren’t interchangeable 1 to 1.
Generally a gas change would warrant a change in compressor and expansion valve ( depending on the system).
This means that you’re comparing completely different refrigeration systems in models of cars that use different gases.
Where an R12 system may have been bigger, more power hungry and actually less energy efficient in the end, it may have cooled better. But manufacturers probably chose to cut costs and install smaller systems along with the gas change.
Lastly PROPANE is not a crazy gas to use. It’s called R290. Butane is also used as a refrigerant and is called R600.
If you wanna compare, look at R-290 versus R-12. Propane looks even better than freon from a performance standpoint. It's just flammable, like the gasoline powered vehicle you're in. Reminder that camper vans and such drive around with much much bigger tanks of propane for heat and fuel.
R290 isnt comparable to R12 nor R134a, because it runs at 100PSI higher pressures, and heats up less when you compress it and it needs an recuperator in the suction line, rather R290 is a good replacement for R22 and R407c
RC270, or cyclopropane is a real replacement for R12, it heats up a lot when compressed has similar pressures (42low/240high for Rc270 vs 35low/220hi for R12) and 20% higher volument latent heat of evaporation
@@renacimientoargentino7515
True. Great comment. 290 is great for R22, not R12. Isobutane is closer, even. But I've not heard of cyclopropane as a refrigerant, very interesting. I like the idea of using lower pressure refrigerants since they're far less likely to leak when there's smaller potential energy to do so.
@@mikafoxx2717 @mikafoxx2717 the issue of isobutane is that it has too little pressure and needs a Compressor twice the size, and doesnt heat as much nor cools down as much when compressed and expanded.
RC270 or cyclopropane has similar characteristics to R12 but better, higher critical temperature, lower pressure ratio (high side vs low side ratio) higher discharge temperature, and a 25% higher volumetric cooling effect, and doesnt have a temperature slide unlike mixed refrigerants
All my vehicles had R12 in the air conditioning from factory. Two of them still do. It is also in my water coolers in the house and my refrigerator. I have a large collection of R12 for service. I did convert my truck to R134 and it does get plenty cold. However, it puts more of a load on the engine than R12 did. Now as for propane it does not work as a substitute. It replaces R22. R12 is equivalent to butane, which I used in my rusted out wood powered truck. It never exploded.
Yet! A case could be made to going back to ammonia. When it leaks, you will know it.
I had the R12 system in my 1990 Mazda 323 converted this past June and have had to bring it in twice since then to have it repaired. What exactly makes this retrofit process so difficult?
R134A is more corrosive than R12.
He hints at that early on in the video, that it is easy on all parts.
In the days of R12, it wasn't commonplace for the refrigerant to eat through the evaporator of condenser cores like what has to be eliminated now when there's a leak in a system.
@@1SqueakyWheel This is not true. R12 and R134a are both halogenated hydrocarbons and are chemically inert. The biggest problem is people who do retrofits don't do them properly. You are supposed to replace ALL rubber seals, compressor oil, and the accumulator and/or filter drier as 134a requires the use of hygroscopic (attracts water) POE lubricant which CAN react with the water in the head of the compressor and decompose into caustic substances that will attack aluminum and cause leaks where the material is thinnest (evaporator and condenser sections if they are micro-channel design) and cause seals to harden losing their sealing properties and cause leaks there, most notably the compressor shaft. These bad retrofits are what give 134a conversions a bad rap. Given that a compressor shaft seal is under positive pressure it normally will not leak until very late in life (
@@sivalley I lived through the whole gamut as well, and you are correct on all points, except that none of those points were what I was referring to.
I even converted my Cutlass in the late 90's to 134a, with proper advice on how to do it correctly. New dryer, blew new oil through the lines and cores for waste in order to remove all traces of old oil. The compressor had been leaking, so I installed a fresh one during the conversion.
It cooled well enough... not as ice cold as the r12 system before it, but I was satisfied enough. It worked great until I quit driving the car years later and sold it.
I agree 100% on the fact most people seem to use fresh air all the time. Sure it's good for certain situations, but not efficient... more energy is expended in the river of condensation from the constant influx of humid air instead of maintaining a gradually drier cabin.
I wish more people understood this principle, or cared... especially the crew members I often drive around who can't seem to stop themselves from cracking their windows or outright rolling them down after I've already gotten the air inside nice and dry, no matter how many times we go over it.
My main point still stands though... R12, despite many similarities to 134a, compressed and expanded with less energy input to the compressor. And it was indeed less detrimental to non-ferrous metals, especially those comprising thin walls. For that reason, pinholes in cores were nowhere nearly as common in the days of r12 as they are now. If it happened, the cause was usually relegated to damage or defect, and nowadays it's considered wear.
We can only work with what we've got, so I'm not preaching against its use, as I'm a big user of it myself. I won't lie though... I do miss the good ole days. 😁
@@1SqueakyWheel Fair enough good sir. And you reminded me of two other things I wanted to point out; the dang metering devices for 12 and 134a while fairly similar we're also fairly different and forgetting to change it would make systems behave undersized on top of old heat exchangers used significantly thicker tube walls for reliability, efficiency be damned, compensated by making systems be oversized for their duty. All in all cheap and energy efficient have all but reduced reliability to "long enough to get past warranty"
It’s the different pressure gas that ruins the compressor and the condenser. FR12 is a lower pressure gas that works best for retro fit
I love the little gag about the will it blend guy 😂 great information and entertaining video
The refrigerant today is better for the atmosphere as the old gas was harmful for the same reason. Tip, you can take a automotive or diesel course to get approved to purchase a canister. You can purchase a small can at Oreilly without the need to be approved. To be honest while the old stuff worked well, once it's gone you'll have to do research to find it, just be sure to find that leak in your AC system first or you'll be throwing your money away.
At that point, I think it would be more ethical to convert your air conditioning system to use a different refrigerant.
I am not a climate change warrior or anything, but I would kind of feel weird still using something that was so aggressive that it was banned for its effects on the ozone layer. I know that you're only 1 person, and it won't reopen the ozone layer hole, but if you gotta go to the ends of the earth to find something, maybe that's a sign you should stop using it?
A more hyperbolic example is leaded gasoline. There are still obscure places that still sell it, but if your car was old enough to benefit from using it, would you use it? Despite knowing the effects of leaded gas?
Your channel is so underrated but yet its amazing.
My friend had a 1973 Oldsmobile with a 455 engine. No car I've ever been in before or since has come close to how cold that thing could blow air. It was truly amazing. On Max A/C, you could barely stand to take a direct blast from the vents.
Old GM cars had the most powerful AC by FAR! They could freeze you out on a 100 degree day, lol!
They were all good but I think Chrysler had them all beat. They had a huge compressor on top of the engine that looked like a Harley V Twin.
I’m glad to see you are still making videos, last I remember I watched your 8th gen civic si review!
*Also nice BlendTec Reference!*
I still have a brand new BMW R12 to R134a AC conversion kit somewhere in my basement. It consists of a new dryer, two adapters for the fill ports and a sticker. You (or more precisely the work shop) were supposed to drain the system from refrigerant and AC-oil. Then remove the compressor, heat it and turn it by hand to remove the oil from the compressor (R12 and R134a AC-oil is not compatible). Replacing the dryer (were obviously also a lot of AC-oil is trapped) and all O-ring gaskets in the entire AC-System (they absorb some of the AC-oil). Then put everything together and charge it with R134a. The sticker would be placed over the original AC-info sticker to inform of the altered refrigerant and its (different) amount.
I mixed R-134a and R-12 in my 1993 Dodge truck. It's been working fine for ten years.
@@mikefrech1123 are you sure it wasn’t converted beforehand?
@@robbieginder6149 Positive.
I had an '85 Monte Carlo back in the day. I was driving around Lake Havasu AZ with my dad on a 120 degree day when my dad says "can you turn down that a/c a little?" Never had a car since with a/c like that !
My grandma had a pre-update 1980 something Ford LTD Crown Vic. I swear that thing would have icicle’s hanging off the vents it got so cold 🥶
Every older car from the r12 era my family had would get super cold and start throwing ice at you on humid days... I can't think of a single time any of my r134a vehicles attempted double duty as a snocone maker
I had a 1987 K5 Blazer and converting it from R12 to R134A was just changing a couple of fittings and it worked fine. That said, I have very vivid memories of my mom picking me up from school in our family's 1993 Taurus wagon, and the car was so cold inside it was like stepping into a freezer.
Love the k5
5:03 The concerns about the ozone layer were not related to global warming. Ozone blocks dangerous ultraviolet light that causes skin cancer and has other nasty effects. The Vienna Convention and Montreal Protocol to ban them were signed by essentially every country on earth.
Dad had an r-12 license back in the day and the stuff to set it up with. Once you had all the parts in place and hoses attached you had to hook up a set of gauges to the compressor. Then you attached a vacuum pump to the fill hose and suck out all air. That vacuum was also used to pull the freon out of the can which meant any leak killed it.
Fun times
I live in Phoenix, R12 is superior to r134 it's colder and operates at lower pressure so components last longer.
The worst ac systems were early r134a cars and converted R12 systems.
It’s actually pretty easy to pronounce once you break it down into its sub components. Di Chloro Di Fluoro Methane. In other words it is a molecule of methane, CH4, in which two hydrogen atoms have been replaced with two chlorine atoms, and the other two hydrogen atoms have been replaced with two fluorine atoms. It’s actually non-toxic so long as it is not exposed to flame.
I was in a parking lot with my then new 89 Accord. When the a/c compressor would kick in, a fog would come out of the vents. At a standstill, hot parking lot, at idle, I had to turn the fan down.
Still have an r12 system in my fc I just wish it was charged lol
yes I remember R-12. My 88 Toyota Corolla used it. now I have a 2012 Camry, and it uses R-134A. I think it does a pretty job in cooling off the interior of my car.
R134a is good for house refrigerators but it's just not efficient enough for AC, until some years ago some house AC in my country came with R22 and they work so much better than the newer ones that comes with R410a.
Lol, keep it in your car and it won’t hurt the ozone layer 🤷♂️
I had a r12 filled 90's civic. That leaked out due to age and had it filled with R134a. Absolutely hopeless. I filled it with spray duster and the magic cooling returned. In hindsight r134a was never going to work as the condenser was far too small.
My sister had an 86 Mazda 626 4 door sick shift well into the mid 90's, and her boyfriend at the time did that trick, and it work till she got rid of the car in 97, due to a 2nd steering column going bad, but the inside of the car always smelled funny after the A/C fix 😅
Air dusters use R34 or R37 something like that.
@@jamminwrenches860 yep, and with additional bittering agents added to try to keep kids from huffing the stuff, which leaves a nasty invisible residue on the stuff you spray it on which is why when I clean my PC these days I use a mini shop vac in Blower mode, and that's why my sister's car smelled funny, and sometimes you can even taste the bittering agents in the air depending on the brand, and which one they used.
@@jamminwrenches860 r152a which is flammable. But so is petrol...
@@CommodoreFan64 I've lost count of how many minor inconveniences have been caused because kids try to get high off of fucking everything
Putting propane in an air conditioner within a car would be like someone putting hydrogen into an airship to make it float...
*Nobody's stupid enough to do that*
My 2014 is350 probably has one of the best car A/Cs I've ever used. Can just about freeze you in there on hot days, ofc I usually just set the thermostat at 70F° and it keeps the car comfortable for me. (The automatic temperature control works remarkably good). I can't say the same for other cars with r134a. Guess Lexus/ Toyota nailed it somehow.
Someone has finally given R-12 the praise it deserves. This is why I still go out of my way to buy old R-12 that my car(s) were made for.
I remember R12. Was in Australia in 1982, and the air-con was ringing from small ice. I’m from Denmark.
Butane gas or propane/butane blend also works well. Remember you have a fuel tank under the back seat, a little bit of propane is not that bad in comparison 😎
My new 21 Ram pickup truck uses R1234yf. So far works pretty good, no complaints.
7:13 Propane is also called R290, and is in serious use as a refrigerant by manufacturers, not just by people struggling to get their R12 car AC working.
Many small home air conditioners and mini-refrigerators use it. Look for the "WARNING: Flammable refrigerant used!" stickers all over them.
A quick research skim suggests that it's an almost-ideal replacement for R22 as well. Please don't try this at home though. (Get a professional to do it.)
I think there's rules on how much capacity a system can have before it's no longer able to be designed for R290 due to the risk of a leak causing a Very Bad Day.
Cyclopentane or C-Pentane. There is a big sticker on the side of my chest freezer warning it is highly flammable.
My new full sized fridge/freezer uses R290
the government said r-12 put holes in the ozone layer yet they keep sending stuff into space which also puts much larger holes in the ozone layer
Great substitute for R12 which actually works better is a blend of propane and isobutane (keeps the pressure lower) I've used it in my 81 Datsun, 86 Volkswagen, and now my son's 92 Miata, so I have real world experience with it. Before some know it all blow hard says "but it's flammable and dangerous" , I worry more about the 14 gallons of gas in my fuel tank, than 16 ounces of propane. It's common for refrigerators in Europe to use butane as the refrigerant.
My dad had a 64' F100 that had the AC until the late 90s. I think it was put in the 70s or 80s. It would get so cold, i swear you could see your breath.
The thing that I missed about R12 the most as a mechanic (UK) was in fault diagnosis. With R12 if the suction line line was at 32psi, the evaporator temperature was at or near to 32°F freezing. With R12 there was quite close correlation between pressure and temperature, this changed with the new-fangled 134a. Edit: I would add though that modern (ish) systems have been improved to the point that even this last summer where we have had temps over 100°F (unusual for the UK) it was still possible to get my 5 series BMW too cold for comfort.
Every refrigerant has a temp/pressure correlation
Cars looked their best in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s. Yes, R134A sucks, especially when used in an R12 to R134A converted A/C system.
If you have the correct charge of 134a wben you replace R12 there is very little difference. generally the replacement happens when the R12 charge is to low to operate properly. So 134 is wonderful making the ac function again.
My 93 Tempo was one of the last vehicles to have R12. That was the best car I ever had when it came to a cold A/C system. You could freeze your back passengers on a 95* degree day!
Do refrigerators and home ac use R134a?
Domestic refrigerators do (although recently they’ve been made using hydrocarbon refrigerants instead), but home ac units (central and window) used R22 before 2010, and have since used R410A instead.
Normal people would buy R12 in much smaller cans (same size as the R134a cans) That large bottle was for garages that worked on cars, or dealers. I don't notice much difference in the cooling power between R12 and R134a. Back in the day, you could add R12 to your system by looking at a sight glass in the system, to check if you were low. If you saw bubbles in the sight glass, you could add R12 until there were no more bubbles. With R134a you need pressure gauges to not overfill the system. PS. I still have one of those small cans of R12.
R134 is less efficient at cooling, but can normally be corrected by just making said system slightly beefier. I also wonder why they don’t add sight glasses to car air conditioners.
One of my cars that I got a few years after I started working in my early 20s was an Oldsmobile 1988 Ninety-Eight. I bought it for $300 (yes, $300!!) because the guy took it to a shop and the shop said the engine had no compression (and it needed one of the windows replaced). Dad brings it home and parks it right outside the house and I remember coming home one day and I walk into the house and suddenly I hear the car roar to life and he's out there revving it and I turn and look at mom and said "I thought they said the engine was bad?" and mom tells me "oh, no, they just had the plugs wired in the wrong order" ... lol. Anywho, the A/C was also dead and I had to have an R134a conversion done on it and they also put blacklight dye in it just in case it was also leaking (it never leaked). Was a nice car that I drove for a few years.
Thank Willis Carrier for air conditioning
R-12 was supposedly causing ozone destruction. How a gas heavier than air travels so high up in the atmosphere is still a mystery. The original theory also claimed R-12 was so stable that it had a 100-year life span in the atmosphere.
If the theory was correct, that would mean R-12 created in 1924 is now starting to break down and the "hole" would be increasing for the next 100 years mirroring production rates/gas release. That means around 2090 is when the hole would start to shrink.
I'm old enough to remember my parents "topping up with Freon" even well after it wasn't the thing they were using. Hell, I still say freon, and I know it's not what my vehicles use.
A tip with those little vent windows... if for whatever emergency you need to break a window to get in a vehicle, don't break that one. Just because it's the smallest window doesn't mean it's the cheapest to replace... in some cases it's the most expensive and hardest to find.
This. So many cars with tiny broken windows. Main windows can be replaced in a day, if that, and are cheap to obtain, compared to fixed, tiny windows.
Makes sense....rare window, rare replacements.
I have '88 Bertone X1/9 like a fiat. A month ago in Boise it was 103, pretty cool inside with A/C on low..I did a test..turn off A/C..interior like an oven in seconds. Freon 12 seems to work very well after all these years.
1:42 a locking gas cap is old? They are normal where i live
Do you have to open it with a key ?
@@426baron yes, almost every car over 5 years old has that (idk about newer ones)
The main issue with R-134a at the R-12 phaseout was the phase change temperatures and pressures. Basically they operated at different pressures within the same system. So putting 134 into a 12 system would make it warmer. However, many manufacturers had set screws under the pressure sensor fittings that allowed the pressure switch setting to be changed. Set it to be triggered higher and the 134 systems were colder than when they had 12 in them. There was a thought at the time that manufacturers did not like that, so they removed the adjustment, citing cost savings.
I converted a 1989 Ford Probe to R134. At the time I was able to source a pressure switch that was calibrated for R134. The system blew just as cold while the car was moving but not quite as good as R12 when the car was in traffic.
I remember first finding out how "safe" r134 was when trying to convince the dealership there was a leak. The service tech said woah get away from that gas it's dangerous. This was after saying it was not leaking and confirming yes it has the "safe" r134. It totally seized the next day btw and cost them replacement of the entire system besides venting itself into the atmosphere. It was covered under warranty and was roughly 6x the cost had they actually done a proper leak test.
If your a/c system used r13 and was leakibg, they would have said the same thing. You wouldn't want to inhale that either. Your pount is moot and useless.
refrigerant grade propane is called R-290, been in use for a long time
Propane used in HVAC systems is called R290. It's 99.99% pure propane
R290 is porn to Hank Hill
Ah yes “Freon “. It’s naturally found in volcanic eruptions. One eruption puts more Freon in the atmosphere than all of our a/c combined since the 50’s.
My dad stockpiled a bunch of it right before it got outlawed, still useful for a '68 Cougar he has that never gets driven. I used some in a '76 280z I used to own and it was cold I suppose, but the blower motor was pretty weak. I owned a few other cars from the R12 era but they were all ratty projects with compressor/condenser problems or just totally gutted. I sweated a lot in the cars I owned in my late teens and early 20s I guess.
I had a '97 honda before and it used R12. It really was very cold. If set to max, even at noon, moisture would build up on the windows and windshield because of how cold it was inside and how hot it was outside. Outside temp was around 32 - 35 degrees celsius. But now, in my 2022 toyota, i'm still sweating even if the AC is set to the coldest setting. The 90s was really the golden era in the automotive world.
04:17 The whole point of CFC's was that they are chemically inert. Breathing them is harmless, so long as you're also getting oxygen in the mix.
The bad part of CFC's is that once they reach the upper atmosphere, they get broken apart by radiation from the sun, making the byproducts of that breakdown very chemically reactive. And the thing most readily available to react with up there is ozone. That's why CFC's deplete the ozone layer, which is crucial for life on earth due to the fact that it blocks almost all of the harmful ultraviolet radiation (the ionizing kind) from the sun.