Can You Damage Your Ammunition by Chambering it Multiple Times?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- Paul discusses whether chambering a round multiple times can damage it.
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Once again, you have not won a prize. It's a scam.
Also, the reason I advise against dropping a round into the chamber is the potential of damage to the gun (the extractor isn't really made to work that way) and increasing your chance of malfunction.
Where's my free gun, Paul?
Try putting the copy pasted into your comment blacklist
I was sure this time I really won
Damnit they got me again
It's okay Paul, you're enough of a prize.
Paul is like that uncle we all needed but never had. Thank you for these videos.
👍
Well said. I'm thankful for the noncoms that cared enough for their own safety(and that of others😉), to explain these types of things to the "uneducated" . Thanks Paul, we owe you a lot.
I'm watching the " Vintage VHS " recorded version ( 480 p )
Not just an Uncle, but everything my dad taught. I've had tot unlearn damn near every bit of misinformation he's ever shared. It's so refreshing to learn from people with actual experience versus a self proclaimed know it all.
@@brianking9446 noncom?
Glad you touched on this Paul. A lot of people don't inspect carry ammo and even more don't know about bullet setback.
One thing I would add... I think it is a good idea to periodically confirm that your carry gun functions with the ammo you're carrying, and that you can shoot that ammo to point of aim. Shooting the magazine you've been carrying for six months solves a lot of problems.
And it's fun.
I’m newer into owning guns but have general knowledge, should I be practicing with my edc, or have two of the same platform one for practice and one for carry? I’d never mind owning another p365 lol
@@seagreen01 MHO you shoot what you carry, it would be n ice to own 2 of the same guns but, even if you do no 2 guns will shoot the same, close, but not the same. You aint gona wear your EDC piece out shooting it
@@seagreen01 If its a new gun it's probably best to maintain using that one to break it in. The metal-to-metal contact parts have to find their own, similar to a new car engine.
@@seagreen01 I practice with the EDC gun as a way to make sure it functions. Practice mag changes to make sure they all function. When your carry ammo gets to be over a year old, shoot it and get a fresh batch.
@Toby that's not good...
I like the "rotate your ammo at the gun range" approach. As the ammo gets older/used you get a chance to be better at the range. Without the I'm wasting money problem.😇
You beat me to it.
@@logicthought24 seriously! I figured it would be the end of vid "bombshell" advice haha
Exactly right. After 15-30 times chambered, fire it at the range. Sooner depending on guns like the Bersa.
People don't like to shoot defensive rounds often because they're pricey.
People shoot shoot their defensive rounds more often despite being pricey.
Don't buy expensive ammo. Durable, subsonic, 230-grain ball ammo makes a big enough hole/tissue shock and is range & financial friendly. Historic Filipino Warriors on enhanced folk medicine provided the proof in concept a long time ago. Otherwise, thank goodness most of them don't want to murder & barbecue Europeans for invading their lands anymore. The .45 ACP is all about defense from crazy humans, so why accept anything less in close combat?
Exactly what I do... even on some of my iffy rounds that look like the bullet may have sunk slightly into the case, I'll just fire them off at the round.
This is an important topic and I’m glad Paul made a video about it. When I was traveling often, for various reasons I would have to leave my firearm in a hotel room. I was never comfortable leaving a loaded firearm at a hotel and always unloaded it. The wear and tear from cycling a round after returning from a meeting, the beach, dinner, etc, seemed excessive. Over time, some rounds did become compressed. Eventually I settled on a J-frame revolver for travel. Thank you Paul for another informative video.
Thanks for posting this. The difference between first hand experience(good) and anecdotal evidence (considered weak) seems to be in what color a person wants to paint a situation as. I don't know about others, but I'd rather listen to experience over theory any day.
@@ctdieselnut First hand experience is actually still anecdotal evidence.
Can't believe I'm seeing this video today. Had this EXACT question regarding my Colt Government Model, and here Paul is demonstrating one!
I have noticed that my cheapo remanned loads get scarred up reloading, so I've been leaving one of those on top and JPH underneath. If I forget to swap mags at camp? I only wasted a single crappy round! (Hopefully...)
As I have used weapons professionally for three years now ,and have owned them personally for longer, I like to heavily advise against unnecessary gun handling. It is as much a safety issue as it is a readiness issue.
Every time you handle a weapon you have an opportunity for a discharge of some sort. This can be voluntary or involuntary, deliberate or accidental or negligent. As every gun owner with enough experience does, at some point while handling your weapons you will get an uninventional discharge at least once in your life. Modern weapons and ammunition are made to exceptional safety standards, meaning apart from a perfect storm of mechanical error, near certainly this unexpected discharge was caused by you pressing the trigger in some way when there was a round chambered. Therefore the best way to avoid this is to reduce the opportunities this has to happen, which means reducing how much you handle your gun. No handling, no opportunity for discharge. You should only handle your weapon when you are at a range taking your shots, in danger using it for serious purposes, performing maintenance, or transferring to a new carry/storage position.
The readiness issue is also a valid concern. Quickly grab your nearest firearm, fiddle with it for a minute, put it away, and then tell me two minutes later its exact condition. Will it absolutely yes or not go bang if you pull the trigger right now? Are you sure? Is there no way you could’ve accidentally done something or been mistaken? You’re most likely you forgot something or didn’t know something for sure following that quick exercise. This is why I recommend that you handle your weapon as little as possible so that way when you said it’s condition for storage transportation or carry you absolutely know it for sure because you have not been fiddling with it; it is exactly as you left it. This means that if you have to use it for serious purpose you know exactly what you need to do with it in order to get the desired result. You aren’t going to find that you left the chamber empty or forgot to put on the safety.
@@ctdieselnut dag is 100% correct. First-hand experience is simply a synonym for anecdotal experience.
Great vid. I worked in and managed a gunshop in CA for many years (finally escaped Californication). Every day, as guys came to work, they got out their pistol and loaded it to carry for the day in the shop. Every night before leaving, they would unload it. One day I asked the guys to see their ammo. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ROUND THEY WERE ABOUT TO CHAMBER WAS SET BACK INTO THE CASE to varying degrees. Setback can cause higher pressures and CAN be quite dangerous. It never hurts to inspect your ammo! And rotate it out (by shooting it) every once in a while.
I am so grateful that Harrell does these oddball presentations... where else would you find TH-cam videos on this specific topic?
Or other oddball topics like “does slamming the slide down on an empty chamber cause any noticeable/considerable wear on a firearm?”
Or “does built up lint in your firearm cause reliability/accuracy issues?”
Things we rarely see testing or talking points on... thank you P. Harrell for these presentations.
If chambering a round was in some way supposed to cushion the slide slamming forward, to such a degree that slamming it forward on an empty chamber was bad for the gun, then you would see parts of the brass that get squashed by that force dissipation. Sure there's a bit of friction in stripping a round off the mag and getting it into the chamber, but it's probably barely taking the edge off of the force the slide has in a properly operating pistol. Remember, the recoil spring is absorbing a large portion of the force of the actual round being fired, and it's strength is suited to that job. The recoil spring is seriously overkill if it only needed enough force to chamber a round. Sure some weird rounds will catch while feeding in some guns and a dirty gun will add friction, but these guns are designed to take the full force of that slide while it's clean, not while it's slowed by something. I would expect that it is ever so slightly harder on the parts to slam the chamber forward on an empty chamber, but probably nowhere near enough harder to make it worse than the slide slamming forward with an actual round several times. So unless you slam your slide forward unloaded about as often as you do loaded, I wouldn't worry about what it's doing to the gun. Pistol actions are not gentle operations, so any quality pistol expected to endure tens of thousands of rounds or more with only minor replacements won't even notice you closing the slide on nothing here and there.
@@DallenRex yes...
I have two directly related experiences in this line.
Having been a reloader for fifty years, inspecting ammunition before use is second nature. So when I began to use Federal HST in our carry guns, .45ACP and 9x19, it wasn't long before I began to notice shortening from chambering multiple times. The previous ammunition we used was Speer Gold Dot, and it was rare that I caught any shortening or nose damage.
Maybe four or five years ago, I did observe the HSTs coming out of my .45 Commander were indeed getting smashed back into the cases. A bit of testing showed me that four chamberings were safe. Beyond that, some rounds would lose enough length to be concerning, both for feeding reliably (not a big problem) to creating unacceptably high chamber pressures. That's the part handloaders are on the lookout for.
I had a significant supply of this ammunition and so made it a point to not exceed four chamberings before discarding the round by shooting it off in practice, as long as it appeared to be a safe length.
Event number two: my routine is to shoot off the ammunition in my carry guns every few months, normally six months at most. Again, a few years ago, I was at the club range for some general shooting and drew my Commander to shoot off the nine HSTs aboard.
On the third shot, the gun stopped cold with a half-chambered round. Since this gun/magazine combination had always run flawlessly, with this ammunition and any other, I was startled. I cleared the gun and continued. Second subsequent shot and it stopped again. This time I carefully and slowly field stripped it. I was shocked to find the front half of the cartridge case still lodged in the chamber. The rear half was on the ground after being ejected.
I had the 50-round box with me to replenish after the shoot-off, so I kept going. It happened again and again, the cases shearing in half at the cannelure, leaving the gun stopped dead.
I gathered up all of the .45 HST I had, e-mailed Federal, and actually got a tech guy on the telephone. He insisted my gun was defective, right up until he opened the e-mail attachment with my photo of numerous broken cases and the original box.
Yes, I'd been carrying defective ammunition from an incorrectly-manufactured lot for half a year that would have rendered my gun useless in an emergency.
I switched back to Gold Dots.
Shoot off your carry ammunition regularly.
I bought a crate of cheap Chinese made 22LR at the Indy 1500 Gun & Knife show back in the early 2000s. It worked out to be 2 cents per round. I was "king of the show" after that purchase. Thought it was the deal of a life time. I would never have to buy 22LR ever again. Well...not so much. The brass was so thin that the force of pushing them into the magazine made them oval shaped. Then the powder would leak out because there was no longer a tight fit to the bullet. So I could not use them in magazines. Just revolvers. Well, the issue there is when you did manage to get one to fire, the case would expand so much that you could not get the empty cases out with the extractor. I had to use a screwdriver to pop each one out they were so tight. On top of the normal no fires you get with rimfire, this junk was tickling the 40% no fire rate. Almost half. Just pathetic. But I learned a lesson. Never again.
Best lesson learned by a burnt hand 😂
@@platinumbrick6 I didn't quite get that far, but it would not have surprised me. You know it's literally a powder keg when you tip the empty mag upside down and powder falls out. Whoa Nellie!
Was the lesson “Chinese = cheap?”
@@se7enthedge382 Absolutely. And I knew that going in, but I figured for backyard plinking ammo, how could I go wrong? Well, turns out that when cheap = junk, it's worthless
@@se7enthedge382 not true my friend. Some of the best Ak's and sks pattern rifles and many more are some of the highest quality firearms and some decent ammo. While that might not always be true and there are some bad examples of Chinese ammo and weapons many of them are great quality.
Bullet setback is a real thing to worry about, anyone who has dabbled in reloading knows how critical that overall length measurement is
It can cause a dangerous over pressure in the pistol and possibly blow it up. Not good.
the last time i was at the range i picked up an errant 9mm cartridge, put it in my pocket, and it came out of my pocket about 2mm shorter.
Anyone who reloads can tell if a bullet has been set back just by looking at it. I can tell the difference in about 4 thousands of an inch in bullet seating depth with my eyes. 😆
I was going to measure my rounds against a new one...but reconsidered as I am not what you would call a professional...... :)
I have shot setback bullets, no prob lmao. Just don't do it with crazy +P+ stuff.
The part about PMCSing your carry is so underrated.
Clearing the weapon and doing a quick check and wipe down only takes a couple minutes and ensures everything has the best chance at working as advertised when you need it.
I test my carry pieces for live fire reliability after a years worth of lint, hair, dead skin cells and sweat. Then clear, clean, oil and repeat every 3 to 6 months. In order to form a baseline time frame for PMS one must evaluate minimum and maximum normal operating parameters. If you tell me you clean your gun every week you're just playing with it AND your PMS will get gundecked at some point.
@@PBVader I concur. A semi regular scheduled ‘test firing’ and thorough cleaning afterwards will reduce the chances of holding on to a damaged round, ensure the weapon will function properly if called for, provide essential training, and last but certainly not least… is fun and a huge confidence builder.
We are anal about cleaning our firearms, we believe a clean gun is by definition more reliable...the carry ammo gets shot out once or twice a year (we're revolver people, but the ammo still gets exposed to the weather)...I cringe listening to folks bragging about never cleaning their firearms...
My Springfield 1911 would over time push ball ammo deeper into the case after mult chambering. Mr. Harrell mentioned that specifically and I’m glad he did. Moving to defensive hollow points made this a non-issue, but rotating ammunition should be a good practice anyway. Good info here as always.
I've also seen that pushing occur with hollow point ammo on my 1911 as well, however.
You sir, are a national treasure. Thank you for the vids and your thoroughness in these discussions.
Paul, you might enjoy this little story. You made me think of it when you mentioned "green" ammunition. Back in the early 80's I was running a handgun re-qualification. This one was set up so on-duty deputies could drop by the range and shoot their score and get back on the street. One deputy came to the firing line and his S&W Model 66 simply would not function. It was locked up tight. We issued him another revolver and i took his back to repair it. I didn't see anything wrong on visual inspection, but did notice an oddly familiar and fairly pleasant odor coming from the revolver, but not an odor I associated with firearms. I couldn't quite place it.
When I finally got the cylinder out and side plate off, I found the action full of a green and white substance that was hard as a rock. And I immediately located the source of the smell. It was toothpaste that had been liberally loaded into the action and allowed to harden. I called the deputy immediately to ask if he knew how toothpaste got into his gun. He said that he had cocked his revolver's hammer and squeezed it in that way. After a bit of silence on my end, I asked him why he would have done that. He said that when he qualified the year before he hadn't done as well as he would have liked, and another officer had told him that if he put abrasive toothpaste inside the action it would smooth everything up and the gun would shoot better. I guess he missed the part about removing it. What was worse is that his revolver had not been fired in a year, and probably would not have fired in an emergency. I thought you might enjoy this one because it might be one of the few times that your two interests in firearms and dental hygiene could overlap.
Once a customer called and said that their restaurant door wasn't working properly. So we went there and immediately realized it is a problem with the floor spring. When we opened it up we saw that it was totally gummed up with ketchup. They thought it would be a great lubricant. Not to mention that they had big bottles of frying oil, olive oil etc (which would have been a bad idea, too). No, they had to try ketchup.
Another time an average shooter is trying to blame the Iron for the lack of training : |
@@bronkothetervueren3246 That's hilarious!
Wow 😮
@@worldoftancraft I wouldn't call him average. I'm well below average and I actually own and use proper cleaners and lubricants for my firearms. I think a better description for Colgate Boy's proficiency level would be "dumbass".
If she tells you it cant be loaded in the house, Tell her shes responsible for dealing with any robbers or murderers.
Why is a woman telling you what to do? She should be making something in the kitchen or cleaning the bathroom.
@@SuspiciousGanymede Spot a person who's never interacted with a female in their life. Or who at the very least never should.
@@Askorti what do you mean? I bust a clip inside and get fed at the same time.
@@SuspiciousGanymede certified super kool guy
loaded in the house? is she nuts. all my guns are loaded....not racked...and under my pillow...and i sleep with them lit 1 foot away if not under me. u wont catch me assembling a wep/unlocking a safe when people break it.
Primer damage. A story circulated among LE trainers, I haven’t personally verified it but it seems plausible, of an LEO that got into a shooting and his first two rounds were duds. When the rounds were recovered and inspected at forensics, it was found the chemicals in the primers had been knocked loose. He had been chambering the same two cartridges over and over.
Thanks Paul. Great video! I have the same primer question. I rechamber the top one or top 2 rounds weekly at the range, but I don't let the slide slam closed trying to avoid all the issues mentioned. I ride the slide home and double check that it's in battery. Seems to me that this is no worse than a press check as far as in battery is concerned. Thoughts on the primer degradation?
@@brucejohnsonmusic2
Same.
I'm a bit of a tinkerer. Bought a 1911, did a lot of work to the internals myself, and wanted to make sure it cycled right. I dry ran ammo through it over and over making sure it all functioned right. I unloaded the mags and put the ammo back in the box and noticed two or three bullets were seated WAY deeper in the casing than the rest. Not a professional by any means but once I noticed that out shooting I threw them out. Thanks Paul for reassuring me I'm not a total idiot and did the right thing. Rest in peace my friend, you are missed.
It's always a good day when a Paul Harrell video shows up in the feed! And this just goes to show you... Paul answers questions that many of us never really thought of-- until the video, that is! Thanks for posting, Paul.
I cannot believe the timing of this. I was literally just wondering about this.
"Likkke Llllilterally! OMG"
@@-_-_-_-318 I wasnt just thinking it i was cleaning up and had just picked some up and was inspecting it and thinking about the fact that some of the projectiles seemed to be pushed back into the case and was wondering about an increase in pressure it may cause.
Great video. I’ve heard this debated for years and what I eventually started doing was rotating my top round to the bottom like you mentioned when I do my monthly inspection and cleaning. That way you can go many months before ever re-using a single round more than once, and if you shoot even at a minimum a few times a year and buy fresh ammo, that should never be an issue.
Another great presentation Paul! Keep up the good work :)
I read "another great president" at first glance and he already has my vote before he knew he was campaigning.
10:05
Anecdotal Alex time: Once I chambered a round in an SKS by hand (had no magazine available).
I let the bolt go forward on its own and accidentally (or negligently depending on how you see things) sent a freedom seed zooming off into the distance.
From what I could gather online, Free floating firing pin+no magazine = ND
Thank you for attending my Ted talk
I’m not a gun owner but I always love watching your uploads Paul. Thoroughly interesting and always packed full of thoughtful analysis.
Why not? Do you live in a location that doesn’t allow you to own a gun, or is it a personal choice? Just curious
Also curious if it’s a personal choice or a location issue.
Well with measure 114 in Oregon you're not going to be a gun owner
@@FearNoSteel he did not say where he was located, although the odds of it being Oregon are fairly slim…
What point are you trying to interject? What exactly is measure 114 in Oregon and how does it prevent people from exercising their 2nd Amendment rights?
Whatever it is, I assume it has to be carefully crafted so it’s not immediately overturned as unconstitutional.
@@AV84USA Measure 114 requires permit to purchase, restricts magazine size to 10 rounds, and the permit itself requires an extensive background check including fingerprints and a mental wellness check. I think the other dude is kinda exaggerating to some degree, but the cost of the permit fees and the 10 round magazine restriction are a bit silly.
Another idea would be to only chamber each self defense round once or twice and after that, add it to your target practice ammo. You should be occasionally firing some of your defensive ammo during practice sessions anyways. This keeps the ammo you are carrying fresh and, because it's ammo that you've DQd from your carry rotation, it doesn't hurt as much when shooting that expensive defensive ammo at paper.
This is an awesome idea. Fixes like every issue and gives you experience of that fancy ammo every so often. Makes so much simple sense.
I can't believe Paul did not realize that one. Every time you clear, put that round in a box marked "Training Ammo".
@@wheeldog5555 Depends on the situation. Some guns will impact the primer when chambering. If your gun does, then do not repeatedly chamber that round. Repeated impacts to the primer WILL cause a round to not fire. Those rounds should only be chambered once before being relegated to the "target ammo" box.
That's a subject for a completely different video, though.
@@wheeldog5555 I believe Paul discusses the idea during the 'Precious' discussion on his 'Why I Don't Like Hyper Ammo' video but doesn't go into any detail.
That's exactly what I do. But I'm pretty easygoing on how many times I'll chamber a round before I shove it aside for defensive ammo practice at the range. I just pay attention to how the rounds look after ejection.
I suppose that back in time, when firearms were made with looser tolerances and a wee bit more guesswork/trial-and-error, a once-chambered round probably was considered useless after one chambering. I don't think that's true with most ammunition, in most well-maintained firearms, today. Though I haven't owned or fired any lousy firearms, so maybe I'm overstating things.
I personally have experienced a bullet getting partially shoved into its casing after repeated chambering in a 1911. I've never experienced this with any other firearm, but it's always in the back of my mind now, so I occasionally rotate out the chambered round in my carry gun now.
The 1911 (and the Hi-Power) has a steeper feed angle than more modern handguns, so the bullet slams into the feed ramp more which’ll cause bullet setback.
I usually try to slow load as much as possible when chambering.
Same thing with mine.
Unless I'm shooting, I first place a round into the chamber by hand, Slowly close the slide, then give it a little punch to fully engage it.
I then activate safety and slap the full mag in.
Every so often, when I'm oiling the gun up and polishing off the rust from carrying, I'll cycle my bullets so that the chambered round goes to the bottom of the magazine.
@@gameragodzilla Exactly. And very flat-faced hollowpoints seem to exacerbate the issue. When chambering that pistol now, I also try to let the slide forward more slowly. I also switched to a more rounded hollowpoint.
I have the same thing with my glock 19, now I rotate rounds when I unload and reload.
I've had the same problem with every pistol I've ever owned.
Hi Paul, this was very informative. I always appreciate your practical approach to the problems. No fluff, no BS, just the facts..
Thanks for pinning the answer to the question I was going to ask! You're a mind reader... or just forward thinking enough to appear so. I honestly never even considered the extractor while I was running scenarios in my head how that wouldn't be a reasonable solution to the issue of discussion.
OMG THANK YOU SIR!!!!!🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Been wondering about this for 30 years!!
Thank you Paul for all the information you bring to us. What entered my mind is, you need to train at the range with your CC pistol. Shoot your older ammo then and put fresh ammo in your pistol after you are done.
but what about my hertenberger buscadero ticoooondas, i don't want to shoot my ticoooondas.
I’ve been waiting awhile for someone to do this topic since I work armed security. Thank you Mr. Harrell
Excellent video from Dr. Paul! Thanks
You made a great point about people NOT cleaning their EDC. At least once a month I shoot a mag through the EDC, and break it down for an inspection and cleaning if needed. They can and sometimes will get dirty just carrying. I use an EDC round that's been chambered several times in that mag. The wife and I have the luxury of a pistol range at the ranch, and shoot our designated target firearms the most (every other day) after EDC break-in.
Best way to rotate out your carry ammo is to shoot those top 2 rounds every so often, one of the main reasons to have a backyard pistol range. Also a great way to keep your EDC fully tested for functionality with the ammo that's been sitting in it for weeks or months.
I accumulate those into their own specially labeled box and use those for range practice. Never had an issue with them, but it seems like a decent idea
Kind of what I was thinking starting when he told the crusty revolver story. "Do they never practice?"
Sadly for most of us a range on our own property isn't possible but hopefully one day I'll have one.
Great comment
@@mytech6779 obviously not. The point was the person never takes anytime with their weapon or skill.
Greetings Paul, I share my experience as a Puerto Rican police officer, a few years ago I was assigned an S&W 4006 and I began to have the habit of opening the slide and putting an ammunition in the chamber and releasing the slide and then inserting the full magazine. I did this for a few months before being sent to the range for training and realizing that with this I damaged the extractor and my gun only fired once or twice before having an extraction failure. When I took it to the gunsmith, he told me that possibly the fact of releasing the slide instead of driving it smoothly could have caused damage to the extractor. We now have Sig Sauers P320 9mm and I prefer to load "normally".
I was very curious why Paul said not to drop a round in the chamber and was disappointed when he didn't elaborate. Than you for sharing!
@@damoclesecoe7184 same. I’ve done this for years with my carry ammo & never had any extractor issues. I carry all Glocks for what it’s worth. Luckily I don’t unload my carry guns very often, basically only when I’m training with them about once a week. And when I’m on the range I load them “normally.”
I've always done it this way too, and was disappointed Paul didn't elaborate. I only have one difference and that is, once I drop a round into the chamber I don't let the slide freefall, I support it as it moves forward and then press it until the extractor clicks over the rim. I've never seen a problem from doing that, Maybe I've just been lucky. Barretta, Colt, Ruger, and S&W are the pistols used.
@@ShanLiB For what it's worth, when the gunsmith and I looked at the ammunition I regularly used for loading, it did have several fairly pronounced marks on the rim.
@@xVictorDavidx Yes, I can understand that happening when the slide is allowed to slam forward. That's why I don't do it. Also, as a reloader, I'm very careful about inspecting all aspects of the case before using it again.
Love the video. Thank you. I'm here to talk about what I do. Its not a recommendation for anyone.
But I lock the slide back, I set the cartridge in the barrel, and hit the slide release. Then insert my magazine. Switch safety on. Holster.
This is specifically to prevent projectile recession.
I choose to do this, so when I clean my gun, the only damage that happens to the cartridge is marring from the extractor on the rim of the casing.
Now granted, that's damage, but its not catastrophic. I simply make sure that when I re-insert my cartridge into the barrel, that the old marring is opposite the space where the extractor will now hold on too.
This lets me get multiple cleaning and reloads a year without the critical damage of projectile recession, and what damage is done is in a controlled area.
Its not getting put into my magazine, where there is a CHANCE that that cartridge loads in the same extractor damage and have a failure to extract.
And when it has 4 marring marks from being reloaded, that's when ill fire that round at the range the next time I am there.
I am minimizing the damage to the cartridge, making sure my odds of malfunctioning are lowest, and conserve ammunition.
As Paul pointed out, this MAY damage your extractor, so if you dont know much about firearms, or its a firearm thats difficult to replace the extractor I would probably NOT do this.
But if you are experienced, its not big deal to replace one.
To be honest Paul is the first ive heard mention that is may damage the extractor. All my other sources say it won't. Because what your doing is almost identical to what happens when you cycle a round. I mean identical . The closest I HAVE heard of damage to the extractor was when people did this:
Lock slide back, insert cartridge, and GENTLY push the slide forward, maybe with a slap at the very end to get the extractor over the rim of the casing, trying to prevent damage to the extractor. But this is what CAUSES the damage. Going slow. The extractor is Designed to move fast, and flex fast. When you rack the slide too slow, THAT causes the damage.
Sincerely, someone correct me if I am wrong. But I personally feel like I have a good system.
On the L.A. Sheriff's Department during the years of the issued 92 FS, we learned that a round could definitely get chewed on the rear rim of the case by the extractor with constant loading and unloading the same round. We learned to rotate and inspect the rounds. We also learned that guys were contaminating the primers with WD40 and other cleaning solvents. The problem of contaminating primers with solvent nearly cost guys their life on several occasions.
Can tell he’s an expert by the way he doesn’t flag his hand over the end of the barrel even without looking
I get setback on many 357 sig rounds after one chambering, glocks are notorious for it with that feed ramp angle, barrels are proof tested well beyond the pressure a compressed charge could produce, Buffalo Bore even mentions glocks as causing setback on their site.
I too have setback issues with my glock 31,32, and 33 in 357sig.
@@JohnNumber5 The 92 is the least likely to setback, with the 357 Sig it is quite likely many of the rounds are getting compressed as they are fed especially in Glock.
Where I remember this being a problem the *MOST* and dangerous to everybody - was when I was an Army MP and later, working for the Army as a civ, and *having* to completely load and unload our magazines back into the box, every shift, so the D/Sgt could feel good about his ammunition inventory and, "Some shitbag hadn't gone off and fired a round - and snuck in a different brand." - PUrrrrre Fuddism.
What *DID* happen was that after several years of this, the bullets were absolutely *crammed* into the cases. We were not ALLOWED to shoot it off, because it was "duty ammo" and that is different from "training ammo" for the Army's inventory system. And... stupid. We finally got it done after several of us wouldn't stop complaining about it for those several years.
PMCS! man, it's been a couple days since I've heard someone say that. Thanks for bringing back memories from the motor pool and arms room.
A firearms instructor purported that the cartridge he used as Paul showed at beginning of video featured the bullet being incrementally pressed down into the casing. The OAL had significantly decreased.
I always think about this actually... Because I unload and load my pistols a lot. I just compare it to the other rounds and so far no damage of any kind. But I still rotate the rounds in the mag. Great video.
I have had rounds that I continue to load it, the projectile has been pushed into the casing further.
Depending on the manufacture some will have extra sealant or a nicer crimp/ ribbing on the bullet to grab better.
@@brightly9318 which could cause overpressure and kaboom
@@mrPauljacob right
Very good presentation, as usual. I recommend firing your self defense ammo every so often. Keeping a magazine full of Ticondas unfired for years is bad MOJO. At least every few practice sessions run your carry ammo. Good to re-check for point of aim & reliability. Keep the serious business stuff relatively fresh !
Miss you Paul. Keep up the Good work Roy and crew.
The biggest issue I've seen with cartridge wear is with lever-action rifles. When I was younger, I hunted with my father and uncles. Most of us carried either Winchester 94's, or in my case, a Marlin 336. After a season of morning loading and afternoon unloading, the cartridges were a little beat up. I generally saved them for target use during the off season. Had a couple get deep seated from being in the magazine during repeated firings. I'd use a kinetic bullet puller to bump them out, then re-seat them on the press. They also served target duty.
As far as my EDC goes, it gets a cleaning and inspection every couple of weeks (period established by observation), the ammunition gets removed from the mag and inspected for wear/condition.
Valid safety video. From my own experience the micro guns may suffer this more due to the blivet phenomenon. Lc9s rechambered one Hdy critical defense about 10 times over 3 years, the cannelure had almost disappeared into the case. This will most certainly raise pressure. It will be used at the range in the full size.
I have seen bullet setback by rechambering Hornady Critical duty 9mm.
Great video Paul. My ammo never goes 6 months long in my pistols. I mean, pulling the magazine and putting the bullets back on top. All of my 9mm magazines are for the same 4 pistols; ie, Taurus G2C/PT1111 et al. I train and practice every month at about 200 rounds a year now. Love your channel.🚩
Paul Harrell is the greatest!! He answers questions no other channels ( that I know of) will take on! Thank you Mr Harrell for sharing your education and knowledge!!!
Thanks Paul for putting this out. Another factor that I have run into is weather conditions. If a person isn’t checking, cleaning, and maintaining their firearm, you’ll get that person with corroded ammo or a rusty firearm.
Thanks Paul! You are My Favorite Gun Nerd! And I say that with Great Respect Brother!
I'm surprised he didn't mention more about the dangers of some of these issues, particularly bullet setback. He talked about it, and how to tell, how it happens, etc., but really other than talking about cost and how it shouldn't be a factor, he didn't mention the dangers or what it can do. A lot of kabooms can be traced back to increased pressures from it. And it's more prevalent than people realize - I have a whole box of self defense ammo that has gotten "tagged out" over the years. Most, I find that rechambering about 4 times is the max. Cor-Bon, only about twice. If the ammo isn't well crimped, and you carry an autoloader, you MUST be observant. But yeah...good video, but I feel like it really needed more.
I agree. Kinda was expecting a demo of firing some setback rounds.
You " feel" like it needed more....ok Safety Sally
Wut. That sounds extremely implausible that it would somehow increase pressure to a dangerous level. Please cite a source on physics of that, or at least an example of anything like that happening.
By "a lot of Kabooms" and what else you say it sounds like you're suggesting specifically overpressure, did you mean to say out of battery?
Lol hahahahahaha you make me laugh
@@beargillium2369 As the bullet is pushed deeper into the case the free space, ie volume decreases. With less volume pressure increases. In reloading minimum overall length is very important for this reason.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who came to the conclusion of "round rotation" as a means of mitigating damage imparted by repeated chamberings.
I learn something different from Paul Harrell every time. Thanks keep these educational videos coming.
100% agree with you. I try not to chamber the round too many times and also try to shoot ammo every so often and keep fresh hollow points in my carry guns.
I found it to be good practice to switch out my carry ammo once a year.
That's what most police departments do too, it makes sense.
@@chrisjones6002 I know its fiction but in and episode Adam-12 Office Jim Reed changed his ammo after 6 months. Of course that was also 1968 and his hand gun was a revolver.
I hope you are shooting it out more than once a year! I generally shoot my current mag of carry ammo at the start of each practice session and then shoot practice ammo and then load fresh carry ammo until the next practice session. Sure, a little more expensive, but ensures fresh carry ammo and that the carry ammo functions reliably in the firearm.
When I was on the job, we shot off our carry ammo at our biannual qualifications.
@@LTVoyager Yup, there's a very good case for not using ammo that you can't afford to practice with. I think Paul covered this a couple of times at least.
If you rotate your ammo every few chambers, by the time you chamber them all you might as well use that mag for some practice at the range. I usually chamber the same round a few times and shoot it at the range and put a fresh one in. Leave the rest alone unless they're a few years old.
I'm with you, except that for concealed carry, a few years old might be way too much. I know a police officer who carry concealed and when he decided to "test" the integrity of a wall was being erected in his gun range, he discovered that his ammo didn't go bang. Then he pulled again and nothing happened. He pulled the slide, the round pulled out and as he pulled the trigger, nothing again. Only on the third round, the pistol fired. People keep saying "that's why I prefer a revolver" but thing is ammo goes bad way faster when the gun is kept inside the waistband. The funny part is that he already owns a gun store, so he should know better.
@@Neomalthusiano I guess it all depends on how you store it. I don't conceal carry so my ammo just sits inside.
When I worked the midnight shift once every six weeks while working as an NYPD officer, I used to clean every cop on duty's revolvers while in the break room. Bore, cylinders, oil, wipe down, put new bullets in them and all this while they waited. I've cleaned Hamburger, jelly donut jelly, onions and mustard. The worst was a highway cop who made SGT. and I I cleaned his locked up Model 36 he kept on his ankle while riding the motorcycle in the rain.
That fly at 00:25 had to be paid actor. That just way too perfect of a timing.
My p365 has pushed a bunch of rounds into the case, luckily I can feel when that happens. I stopped unloading my gun every time I took it off a couple years ago, so it doesn't happen nearly as often now, and I cycle my ammo as Paul suggested.
Strange. My p365xl has yet to do it to me. I do cycle the ammo every so often though, so maybe that's my saving grace.
Al Thill: And the very _best_ way to cycle it is to use it for your
regular practice session......UNLESS the projectile was set back!
And, of course, depending on the Type and Severity of damage.
The standard P365 seems to push in the rounds into the case (unless you manually drop the round into the chamber) but all of the XL slides I've seen don't have the same issue.
On a gun that is causing bullet setback, it is likely more wise to drop one in and let the extractor pop over the rim.
I d'burr and polish the back of extractors on guns where I chamber pre-load. If you aren't comfortable doing this, any gunsmith can do it easily and safely.
Preload is like dry firing... critical not to do on certain firearms, and irrelevant on others. Know your firearm is best here.
This may be ammo-specific. It happened to me with my p365 and Doubletap ammo. Different ammo has different crimps. Best for EDC ammo to have tight crimps. Harder to do tight crimping with taper crimps used on auto rounds vs roll crimps used for revolver cartridges. Cannelures FTW.
Great video, as a hunter I have often wondered if this would be the case with rifle ammo .In Canada it is illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle so I often rechamber the same round multiple times. The only time I noticed some marring was with my 30-30 lever gun. But I will make it a habit now to rotate the rounds. Thanks for the info.
It would depend on the rifle. Many bolts dont have any type of ramp. So the projectile never touches anything on the way in.
An ar with feedramps is a diff story.
Check for bullet setback. That is the major issue.
Even a torn shell casing is basically incapable of destroying your gun when you shoot, unless it somehow prevents your gun from locking up. The chamber is the only thing containing the pressure of firing anyway, and the brass is only there to get everything into the chamber and provide a gas seal at the rim/base of the cartridge. If the brass is gouged or roughed up it doesn't result in the gun itself being too weak to contain the pressures of firing.
Bullet setback, however, drastically increases the chamber pressure of the gun, which can result in a KB.
Great video. Thanks again Paul.
Years ago (late 90s) all I ever carried was a 1911 Officers model. I still have the gun. Sentimental value. And it still shoots good. But I did happen to notice one day, when I cleared my chamber, that the bullet was pushed in about half way. I was using Winchester Silvertip at that time. From then on I marked the shell I was chambering with a black marker, and after the second loading I put that round back in the box for range practice. Maybe was was being excessive, but when it comes to defensive carry, I take no chances.
These days I carry a CZ 75 Compact in winter, and a Ruger LACP Custom in my pocket in summer. I don't suppose you know how those two do in general, when chambering? Anyway, I still keep to my cautious ways either way.
Thank you for this lesson. I was wondering about this issue and of course you had the answer i needed.
Thanks Sir.
I actually have wondered about this and I have routinely inspected for damage.
Good video Sir.
9:30 one of my favorite comic series, Schlock Mercenary, created a list of pithy, mostly-humorous aphorisms, The Seventy Maxims Of Maximally-Effective Mercenaries. Your line of discussion about ammunition costs reminded me of Maxim 46: "Don't try to save money by conserving ammunition."
One way to avoid damaging pistol ammo is to not drop a round in the chamber and let the slide slam forward. I load a full mag and let the slide push the round into the chamber then remove the mag and add another round. Also if you are going to carry plus one, make sure your gun will fire with plus one first. Some smaller guns (25,32,380) will not function plus oned
I CAN verify a "gun loaded too long and neglected by a cop" story.
I was working in a gun shop in 1979 when a local detective came in. He'd had to draw his Colt Detective Special .38 when a bust went badly and a shoot-out occurred and his revolver didn't work! Luckily he wasn't alone and wasn't harmed.
So, our gunsmith took the gun down to the shop and found the rounds had corroded in the chambers! He had to use a punch to get them out! He also cleaned the gun thoroughly (it was filthy) then successfully test-fired it with fresh ammunition.
When he got back to the sales floor he asked the man "WHEN was the last time you cleaned this gun?"
"Oh, I've never cleaned it."
"When was the last time you loaded it?"
"When I went on the job."
"When was that?"
"1948."
Go figure.
In the army, they told us to alternate rounds. Not to keep chambering the same round. But that was because the firing pin lightly taps the firing pin. And could pertinently cause the round to pop off.
Something that came to my mind is that when you clean your conceal carry gun (which I would think should be at LEAST once a week), you should be cleaning your mag. So rotate your top round to the bottom, and put a small line on it with a fine point Sharpie pen. Once every round has been marked, use those rounds as target ammo. You could even do two or three marks if you don't get to practice that often.
Oh yeah, if you're worried about the bullet being forced back into the shell, you can always measure it with a caliper to see if it's in spec. You can easily look up that info on the interwebs...
That’s beyond excessive unless you carry that thing in a coal mine or granary. In fact I’ll go as far as to guarantee you you’re adding far more additional wear and increasing your probability of malfunctions long term by cleaning so frequently. If all your edc is getting exposed to is your sweat and rubbing against you or your holster, and being left in glove boxes occasionally, like 99.9% are, you shouldn’t need to clean more than every 500 rounds or 4 months, whichever comes first. There is such thing as cleaning too much and it’s why a lot of military issue firearms show so much wear.
Cleaning once a week? Must be a 1911 thing
Probably what the boomers do when their daughter brings a date home
@@aleks138 this is about perfect lol
@@TheDiameter You CLEARLY don't know what you're talking about. First off, sweat is water and salts...
Tell me you're not so stupid that you don't realize how much those two things can cause corrosion. You can't possibly have any experience with guns with a response that ignorant.
Military weapons are also exposed to VERY harsh environments, which NECESSITATES frequent cleaning. You don't need to put a bore brush through every time you clean Einstein...
@@aleks138 Boomers are in their 70s and their daughters are in their 40s
You can do a variation of putting the round in the chamber on a locked slide to save the rounds from a lot of damage. My example works on a P226. You put the round in the chamber, ride the slide forward, then tilt the gun back and slowly pull the slide back. Once the round is low enough to clear the extractor, and is still held from falling out by the bolt face, you can ride the slide forward and the round should chamber very smoothly. This saves not only your extractor from wear, but there is no spring tension from the magazine, not sharp feed lips and no slide slamming the round into battery. The rim of the cartridge is also saved as opposed to letting the slide go home on a loaded chamber.
10 thumbs UP 👍😎
Never drop the slide on a round in the chamber. Yes the front of the extractor is ramped so it will cam over the rim. However, you are stressing the extractor. It may work forever and you may never suffer a failure, or it may be stressed to the point of failure and it will fail at the worst possible moment. Only load from the magazine.
My understanding is that this is only a problem with 1911s - the internal extractor is made of a delicate piece of spring steel that can snap from the stress. Glock-style external extractors should be tough enough for this not to matter.
@@Wedgedeagle Was waiting for this comment. Totally agree. If you watch the extractor slowly, it isn't in contact with the back of the cartridge by the time the breechface meets the cartridge.
Definitely some food for thought thank you Paul
Princess Ann's close protection officers gun jammed when she was attacked years ago.
Seemingly it was something along the lines of because he had "cleaned unloaded and reloaded his gun so often" ? I heard this from a Police firearms instructor who was one of the officers involved in the investigation as to why it had "jammed" and Anne's close protection officer got shot 3 times
"When in doubt, throw it out"
Thanks bud, I was on the fence. Love your videos.
This video may have just saved my life. When he reminded me to do maintenance and checks, I noticed that my trigger wouldn't reset! The pivot pin had started to rust from sweat!
“Please bear with gunfire you may hear in the background.” Words I wished make a comeback ended up doing so. Also, Paul, could you do a video on the AK-74 and the 5.45 round? Thanks.
Hey Paul, I was at my local sporting goods store today and found a box of Federal 147 grain FMJ Flat Point 9mm ammunition for a little bit cheaper than my usual Winchester White Box Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition that I carry, I considered for a moment if flat point bullets would be more effective for anti-personnel use than round nose bullets. Do you know of any difference in effectiveness between 9mm FMJ round nose and flat point ammunition? If not then I think seeing a meat target demonstration of the two side by side would be interesting. Thanks for the video and your time.
Great information. Thanks Paul
The main firearms I’ve had problems with the bullet getting pounded deeper into the shell after multiple rechamberings is my 1911’s. Kimber, springfields, and Les Baer. If you use magazines with controlled feed lips it makes it worse because the round drags against the ramp at a more abrupt angle. If you use Wilson or McCormick style that have lips which release the round very early then the round jumps up and almost goes straight in. This does makes it harder on the extractor since 1911s are designed to have the round slide up into the extractor rather than snap over it.
Yup. That was helpful. Thank you. C.
Many years ago, my only suitable concealed carry gun was a post war Mauser HSc in 380 that I bought new at the Rod & Gun Club in Bamberg Germany. My preferred carry ammunition was Winchester Silvertip. It was my habit to unload my pistol when I came home and put the chambered round back in the magazine. Then place the gun and magazine in a bedside drawer. In the morning I would put the magazine in the gun and chamber the first round. I don't know how many times I did this before one night when I ejected the chamberd round I noticed the bullet was set back in the case. I didn't need to compare it to a fresh round, it was obvious. After that I started doing just what Paul suggested. I would unload the magazine and rotate through the complete loading at the first sign of set back I would go to the range shoot up that magazine full and a few magazines of FMJ. Then start over with a fresh load out. Problem solved.
Am I the only one that wants Paul to say the deadpan quote, “How compelling…Please face the wall now.”
Thanks, Paul. I was JUST wondering this.
Great Information Paul! Many Thank's
We are living in the dispensation of Paul matter of fact.
Stay Vigilant & Use that diserment people.
I did my own study of this phenomenon. I used 45 auto and a 1911. Just like Paul shows in this video, I reloaded the same round and checked its length after each ejection. There started a shortening process after the 3rd ejection. Just a mm or so until the 5th ejection when it shortened by a cm. After the 6th ejection the rounded tip of the round was barely visible and only protruded from the cartridge neck by a mm or two.
I have a cell phone store
(hot target for an armed robbery)
When we first opened I had been carrying my G23 for at least 4 years everyday. Decided to go to the range to brush up my skills, and the first three rounds jammed in my Glock.
All these rounds were around 5 years old, the top three rounds were scraped up bad from loading & unloading for years. Glad I learned that valuable at the range & not on the streets. 🙏🏼
Thanks Paul. I go through this with my EDC. After chambering the same round several times I inspect it and sit it side by side a fresh round. I check mainly for bullet set back. If it's noticeable the round gets replaced with a fresh one and the old round goes in a different row in the back of the box so mabey down the road I can salvage some of the components. Thank you again sir for a great informative highly useful and definitely not "boring" 😎👍.
you are a very smart person mr Harrell
thank you for the video paul ive been wondering this for awhile
Thank you for making this. Informative, as always and bullshit free.
This is an excellent question that I hadn't thought about... Thanks for addressing this issue...
Police officer in Norway here. Before each shift we load our pistol and chamber a round. After each shift we have to unload the pistol again. So this is relevant for some law enforcement as well I think. Our MP5 is locked inside our car, so the reveiver is locked in the back position and we just put the magazine in whenever we would need the MP5, so that's not much of an issue there. Our pistol is always on our hip (whenever we are temporarily armed because of security measures/terror etc. Norwegian police is generally unarmed. When in normal situations we get permission to arm ourselves if the assignment has any potential danger in it.)
All good points. I've also noticed ammo with a cannelure (Ridge on the bullet where the casing sits) are more resistant to setback. Which is their purpose. Something to consider when shopping for ammo.
When I bought my first firearm, a Glock 19 Gen 4 FS and was not yet confident in carrying my firearm with a round in the chamber all the time, I used to get home every evening and I would remove the magazine, rack the slide and remove the round from the chamber to make it safe.
In the morning before leaving the house, I'd rack the slide putting the same round back into the chamber until after a while it began to jam when doing so, upon closer inspection as Paul pointed out, I noticed the height of the round I'd continously been chambering was noticeably shorter and thus realized that overtime and repition of chambering and unchambering that round had caused it to get damaged and cause a malfunction.
I've since then worked on my confidence issue and as a result of that stopped chambering and unchambering my firearm to "make it safe" and now just leave the round in the chamber and safely store it away.
1. IWB or OWB carry especially in winter, weekly maintenance is a priority. I do this because your going to sweat and "condensation" is the worst enemy for any pistol in my opinion.
2. Rotate your ammunition as suggested, Thank You Paul. I do this on a daily basis and inspect every round throughly. Heaven forbid if you shall ever need to use it. Keep your firearm in top tier condition is a priority.
- Safe Winters all, 🙏 and GET OUT & VOTE!
Wisdom!!! Why I keep coming back. Also, I had a round where the projectile loosened over many rechamberings. Something else to look for.
I just recently noticed this type of damage sinerio occurring to my 9mm ammunition being chambered in my new Taurus g3. Recently I'd purchased some very nice, extremely powerful for 9mm, +p+ Buffalo Bore jhp personal defense ammunition. In this particular instance and configuration of firearm and ammunition, just 1 time feeding is all I can reliably and safely count on, because the 2nd time it's been chambered I see there's a noticeable loss in overall length where the round is pushing back into the casing by a couple mm's +/-.
In short what I've decided to do to avoid this sinerio in my particular routine is to simply always only top off the magazine at the 15th or 17th round ( last round / depending on the magazine capacity ). I just chamber a standard target load of 115grain, 124grain, 147grain or whatever weight round or flat nose for that initial chambering. Then I'll top back off that magazine again with the Buffalo bore +p+.
🤔Now in the event I have to use my edc pd weapon, the GOD forbid potential assailant, burglar or etc. etc. .. may indeed be pulling out a ace of spades that day right GOD willing my aim is true and in a perfect world 1 shot being the wonder to do the job🙏. Depending on many variables and shot placement, again GOD forbid it happen, the example assailant has a excellent chance of survival and getting proper medical treatment from a skilled surgeon they'd most likely stand a good chance of survival. Things change for said example assailant should I need to lay down a 2nd round or a double tap be necessary, those survival % rates drop exponentially
This was super helpful! Was always curious about this topic.
This kind of content is necessary. People need to know how to maintain their firearms. And ammo maintenance is part of it. I remember watching a video series on magazine springs, and if it's detrimental to keep a magazine loaded or not.
Turns out the limiting factor of magazine life is more the number of cycles, rather than being unloaded or not. So keeping a magazine loaded VS unloaded doesn't seem to matter. The number of times you load and unload does. This is the kind of information that is vital to gun users and enthusiasts.
Keep up the good work!
Your delivery and word/sentence structure cracks me up...love it.