-glances at my collection of 9 3rd edition LRMBTs with lascannons and heavy bolters- “It’s worked for 7 editions, it’ll be fine, next edition will nerf the current hotness anyways”
Back when I had to pay points for sponsons, they were cheap. I used to run the plasma "executioner?" with plasma sponsons, 5 small templates of plasma just to remind the space marines whos got the firepower advantage.
And then the space marine player casted Invisibility on a single character in the middle of a blob of assault marines and stopped you from shooting their entire army with any template weapons.
Well thought out and reasoned argument as per usual, I wonder what you opinion is on the stubber/melta choice for dorns Personally I go with the stubbers since it simplifies dice rolling and makes 18” the sweet spot for maximum output
Fun question, I think they're both pretty useful. Slight preference for the stubber to ping off injured models so the d3 weapons aren't "losing damage" and 12" is just so short, but other people like meltas Dealers choice really
I know Heavy bolters aren't the best. But I like to use them anyway. I usually recommend multi-Meltas to people. Though I am odd. I like to run the Eradicator with heavy flamers.
This is great, I genuinely think that people should play what's fun for them, and then recommend the same Whenever people are asking what is strongest though, it's just a different question
Now, ive done the math before and i personally completely agree and avoid them like the plague, BUT. My locals has some (like literally everyone i dont bother going to the 'tournaments' there it feels wrong lmao) very uh... questionably skilled players, where getting into range with multi meltas, not getting charged when they have plasma, and trying to get specificly armed lemans in specific areas are legitimately a hopeless endeavor. For these players in specific, maybe lmao. Ive noticed a lot of them very much dont like any sort of help or advice as well and tend to get mad at me for not being objectively bad. At this point i can only take absolute meme lists like all 6 epic hero ultramarines or max firestrike servo turrets to have a relively low salt game. In summation i hate playing at my locals.
Fighting ignorance with math is your superpower 😂. Unrelated question: several videos back you went over the GW maps and the firing lines you added with Paint. Are those layouts anywhere to be found out in the interwebs? You showed 2 of the layouts but I’d love to be able to check them all out 🙏🏻
The biggest edge a heavy bolter has is the SUSTAINED HITS 1 - so when you need a '6' to hit ANYWAY it generates double hits on top of a higher rate of fire. It's basically a good overwatch weapon, so its best if you have the means to get cheap/free overwatch attacks.
@Pas5afist everything does get better better but crit fishing becomes more efficient with rerolls. Increases chances of sustained hits and lethal hits. That's the only time I justify them on a russ but have never done the math.
I think it makes sense to look at the average values to get a feel for the extent of the damage. However, dice only produce integer results. For every unprevented hit, there are two wounds that take out a Space Marine. It would therefore be better, based on the probability of an unavoided hit, to consider the conditional probability of getting exactly one hit (and therefore two wounds) to evaluate which weapon is better. In this sense the conditional probability of a flamethrower versus that of a heavy bolter to cause exactly two wounds. In any case, a great video to give a feel for the damage.
I feel like there's got to be some value in a gun that can fire from turn 1 all game long, as long as the tank lives. The multimeltas are a clear winner if optimising vehicles against tanks, and that's what the Born Soldiers is pushing you towards. Flamers are better if you are charged, plasma is better if you are left to your devices and want to kill infantry. I have to say, the fact that you can take 3 bolters and roll 9 dice all game (with rerolls and exploding dice) is very appealing
It would be interesting to get your opinion on what heavy bolters would need for them to be comparable to the other choices. As they were clearly not balanced around all wargear being free.
Honestly just an extra shot each, as it would make it generally more reliable in activating Lethal/Sustained and compete with the other weapons. Plus it would start to fill the anti infantry role better
I'm not sure who says that heavy bolters are most efficient at killing light infantry-- that's absurd. They're 2 damage weapons. Half of their damage output is wasted. Unfortunately they're not very good unless you manage to increase their AP against things like marines or light vehicles, though.
Well with points not really being a thing "its all power level now I don't care what they call it" you take only the best option. You don't take something like devastators to take heavy bolters because the power and point cost for las cannons have been factored in to taking anything less means you over paid. 10th sucks
Got my Russes with bolter sponsons because you needed additional weapons to preserve the battlecannon in case of weapon destroyed result- meltas couldn't move and fire with the Battlecannon. Meta chasing is silly, run what you have
Competitive play has ruined Warhammer. It has taken away all flavour, themes and creativity from the game. Flavour and theme is the way to go, competive play ruins the game and burns people out.
Ehhh I mean this channel is, was, and will be focused on competitive play Not because I dislike casual play, I do that too, but because my recommendation for casual play is do whatever you're gonna have the most fun doing I tend to take way more Sentinels and Rough Riders when I don't care about winning because I love the models
This is why I dislike the loss of points for equipment. There’s a lot of equipment that had a purpose when they’re cheap but are pointless now. I really liked 7th and 8th and 9th was ok. Not a fan of 10th. (My favorite edition was 4th my second least favorite was 6th). Interesting video though. I enjoy the math so I subscribed despite my grognard whining
yeah... i miss being able to go like "well i like the rest of the army, so i'll take a worse weapon to make the points work" i've only played 5th, the end of 9th, and 10th, and 10th is my least favorite so far as well
Okay but what about the death watch heavy bolters on the indomitor kill team that are: 3 attacks, WS - 3, strength 5, ap -2 and damage 3, with both lethal, sustained 1, heavy and assault? Those heavy bolters kinda rock
Ok not every new player is only playing on those maps, but from a competitive standpoint yes they do less damage. But some people might value NOT dealing DMG to yourself AND having the range advantage AND be able to shoot into their own combat if they get charged. They are versatile, but not the best at anything. Most fun to roll tho because most dice over the long time.
Most dice over a long time is valuable but I think it needs to be understood that guard likes having more than you, I'm not that worried about one Lehman Russ in a combat and guard has the low enough point values that they can afford specialization. We love a dual purpose unit sure, but that can't atone for the fact there is a mathematically correct choice. Again as he said plenty in the video have fun, I myself have magnetized all my heavy bolters so if we ever get point costs for weapons back I can replace them, but there is no good argument in 10e as it stands for that
I will tell people that are trying to play optimized lists that they're just wrong if they're playing heavy bolters but I won't argue that rolling more dice is more fun
-glances at my collection of 9 3rd edition LRMBTs with lascannons and heavy bolters-
“It’s worked for 7 editions, it’ll be fine, next edition will nerf the current hotness anyways”
I'm going to take bolters even harder now.
What I got from this video is Heavy Bolters on everything always.
I'm gonna start replacing the turret weapon with heavy bolters
@@Joushi40k You're right I need to run Punishers more.... :D
I'm going to take heavy bolters instead of Leman Russes
@Joushi40k Basically a Malcador Defender. When you get 21 Heavy Bolter shots going somewhere, some of it's gonna do something.
God, I love hearing about math applied to 40k.
Back when I had to pay points for sponsons, they were cheap. I used to run the plasma "executioner?" with plasma sponsons, 5 small templates of plasma just to remind the space marines whos got the firepower advantage.
Miss this
And then the space marine player casted Invisibility on a single character in the middle of a blob of assault marines and stopped you from shooting their entire army with any template weapons.
@@jamesloder8652 I actually didnt play during 7th, glad I missed it
Well thought out and reasoned argument as per usual, I wonder what you opinion is on the stubber/melta choice for dorns
Personally I go with the stubbers since it simplifies dice rolling and makes 18” the sweet spot for maximum output
Fun question, I think they're both pretty useful. Slight preference for the stubber to ping off injured models so the d3 weapons aren't "losing damage" and 12" is just so short, but other people like meltas
Dealers choice really
I know Heavy bolters aren't the best. But I like to use them anyway. I usually recommend multi-Meltas to people. Though I am odd. I like to run the Eradicator with heavy flamers.
This is great, I genuinely think that people should play what's fun for them, and then recommend the same
Whenever people are asking what is strongest though, it's just a different question
Great video, you forgot the ignore cover on the flamer so they look worse than they are (which is on par with heavy bolters)
Oops you're right
Now, ive done the math before and i personally completely agree and avoid them like the plague, BUT. My locals has some (like literally everyone i dont bother going to the 'tournaments' there it feels wrong lmao) very uh... questionably skilled players, where getting into range with multi meltas, not getting charged when they have plasma, and trying to get specificly armed lemans in specific areas are legitimately a hopeless endeavor. For these players in specific, maybe lmao. Ive noticed a lot of them very much dont like any sort of help or advice as well and tend to get mad at me for not being objectively bad. At this point i can only take absolute meme lists like all 6 epic hero ultramarines or max firestrike servo turrets to have a relively low salt game. In summation i hate playing at my locals.
Fighting ignorance with math is your superpower 😂.
Unrelated question: several videos back you went over the GW maps and the firing lines you added with Paint. Are those layouts anywhere to be found out in the interwebs? You showed 2 of the layouts but I’d love to be able to check them all out 🙏🏻
i haven't like painted over all of them, but the maps are on warhammer community
The problem with plasma is that I take six mortals wounds to do 2 plasma shots everytime.
skill issue
What about with the leamon russ battle tank when it gets full rerolls to hit.
Thats the only time i use heavy bolters.
But wouldn't full reroll multimeltas be even better? Probably don't even need a Take Aim order.
The biggest edge a heavy bolter has is the SUSTAINED HITS 1 - so when you need a '6' to hit ANYWAY it generates double hits on top of a higher rate of fire. It's basically a good overwatch weapon, so its best if you have the means to get cheap/free overwatch attacks.
@Pas5afist everything does get better better but crit fishing becomes more efficient with rerolls.
Increases chances of sustained hits and lethal hits.
That's the only time I justify them on a russ but have never done the math.
Do i play 40k? No. Did i stay because i enjoy number crunching and math? Absolutely.
I think it makes sense to look at the average values to get a feel for the extent of the damage. However, dice only produce integer results. For every unprevented hit, there are two wounds that take out a Space Marine. It would therefore be better, based on the probability of an unavoided hit, to consider the conditional probability of getting exactly one hit (and therefore two wounds) to evaluate which weapon is better. In this sense the conditional probability of a flamethrower versus that of a heavy bolter to cause exactly two wounds. In any case, a great video to give a feel for the damage.
I always tried to use HB because of the range in my chimeras. Guess I'll start using HF!
I feel like there's got to be some value in a gun that can fire from turn 1 all game long, as long as the tank lives.
The multimeltas are a clear winner if optimising vehicles against tanks, and that's what the Born Soldiers is pushing you towards. Flamers are better if you are charged, plasma is better if you are left to your devices and want to kill infantry.
I have to say, the fact that you can take 3 bolters and roll 9 dice all game (with rerolls and exploding dice) is very appealing
the first part is basically the argument for mortars on HWT tbh
we do like rolling dice
It would be interesting to get your opinion on what heavy bolters would need for them to be comparable to the other choices. As they were clearly not balanced around all wargear being free.
Honestly just an extra shot each, as it would make it generally more reliable in activating Lethal/Sustained and compete with the other weapons. Plus it would start to fill the anti infantry role better
Thank you for over explaining some very obvious math
I'm not sure who says that heavy bolters are most efficient at killing light infantry-- that's absurd. They're 2 damage weapons. Half of their damage output is wasted.
Unfortunately they're not very good unless you manage to increase their AP against things like marines or light vehicles, though.
I think its space marine players running psy-ops in Guard forums. How else could you explain someone suggesting Heavy Bolters?
caught red handed
If they were 6 shots each at s5 ap 1 dam 1 with sustained 2 I think they be interesting as suppression weapons which are kinda what they are.
Well with points not really being a thing "its all power level now I don't care what they call it" you take only the best option. You don't take something like devastators to take heavy bolters because the power and point cost for las cannons have been factored in to taking anything less means you over paid.
10th sucks
10th is definitely more milquetoast than previous editions
Got my Russes with bolter sponsons because you needed additional weapons to preserve the battlecannon in case of weapon destroyed result- meltas couldn't move and fire with the Battlecannon.
Meta chasing is silly, run what you have
I've had great luck with flamers, they're great for keeping my tanks from getting bogged down by chaff units.
Competitive play has ruined Warhammer. It has taken away all flavour, themes and creativity from the game. Flavour and theme is the way to go, competive play ruins the game and burns people out.
Ehhh I mean this channel is, was, and will be focused on competitive play
Not because I dislike casual play, I do that too, but because my recommendation for casual play is do whatever you're gonna have the most fun doing
I tend to take way more Sentinels and Rough Riders when I don't care about winning because I love the models
Cadian Sgt Steel is a great follow for the non-competitive side of the hobby.
if u are watching this channel and complaining about competitive play, you have it all wrong.
This is why I dislike the loss of points for equipment. There’s a lot of equipment that had a purpose when they’re cheap but are pointless now. I really liked 7th and 8th and 9th was ok. Not a fan of 10th. (My favorite edition was 4th my second least favorite was 6th).
Interesting video though. I enjoy the math so I subscribed despite my grognard whining
yeah... i miss being able to go like "well i like the rest of the army, so i'll take a worse weapon to make the points work"
i've only played 5th, the end of 9th, and 10th, and 10th is my least favorite so far as well
Moneyballing warhammer. Whats the optimum army?
No! I LOVE DAKKA!
People who take bolters are just ork players
Okay but what about the death watch heavy bolters on the indomitor kill team that are: 3 attacks, WS - 3, strength 5, ap -2 and damage 3, with both lethal, sustained 1, heavy and assault?
Those heavy bolters kinda rock
ye deathwatch heavy bolters are pretty cool
Ok not every new player is only playing on those maps, but from a competitive standpoint yes they do less damage. But some people might value NOT dealing DMG to yourself AND having the range advantage AND be able to shoot into their own combat if they get charged. They are versatile, but not the best at anything. Most fun to roll tho because most dice over the long time.
Most dice over a long time is valuable but I think it needs to be understood that guard likes having more than you, I'm not that worried about one Lehman Russ in a combat and guard has the low enough point values that they can afford specialization. We love a dual purpose unit sure, but that can't atone for the fact there is a mathematically correct choice. Again as he said plenty in the video have fun, I myself have magnetized all my heavy bolters so if we ever get point costs for weapons back I can replace them, but there is no good argument in 10e as it stands for that
I will tell people that are trying to play optimized lists that they're just wrong if they're playing heavy bolters but I won't argue that rolling more dice is more fun
Just play deathguard. Then your heavy bolters get stinky