Is Clocking Out Your Opponent Scumbag, or Genius
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Today we talk about online Chess Clocks - and how they make the digital game significantly different to the paper game. Can we as a community use sportsmanship to get past this?
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#mtg #magicthegathering #cedh
MODO needs to add in a function for repeating actions. Maybe clippy can show up "it looks like you've repeating the same action 10 times in a row, how many times would you like to do this?"
Hahaha that would really make it live up to the name Magic: Excel
In *theory* this should be fairly doable via the addition of a scripting/macro command system into the client similar to what a lot of MMOs have. Basically, you would type in a sequence of game actions that form a loop you wish to perform formatted in a such a way that the client can interpret the commands. From there, all you have to do is tell the client how many iterations of the loop to do, and then pop up a window for your opponent asking them if they accept the loop (AKA are passing priority through the whole thing), if yes, the whole things runs and immediately progresses the game state to the end of the loop, otherwise it runs until the point your opponent said they didn't want to pass priority. That's honestly the only sort of system I could see working for a game as complex as Magic.
Detecting looping actions is hard for computers.
I was coming here to say this. Surely once a certain set of cards are in play it could just open up a text box for you to write in how many mana/tokens/whatever you want.
It may be hard for the system to detect, but having a "present loop" button that lets you enter in the steps you'd like to take, then key in the number of times to repeat the action, then validate and execute seems like it should be doable
The problem with a chess clock in MODO is that the game actions are difficult to execute. Especially with the infinite combos, even two card combos can require 6-7 clicks per loop, which is just eating the clock time.
I think that the clock should only run if it has been more than a second since the player took a relevant game action. Use the same principle that IRL judges use for determining a slow play infraction.
This is very interesting. The problem then becomes defining "relevant". But a baseline requirement of "an action that hasn't been taken before in the same exact scenario in this turn" would already be quite decent. This would prevent tap/untap a land or declare/undeclare an attacker/blocker.
Now you have two problems, possibly minor:
- you introduce a new way to "play the clock", pacing your actions so that your clock doesn't run
- lag/ping becomes possibly more impactful over the course of a long/grindy game
in chess every turn gets additional time, and you can actually gain time by playing fast enough...
Another problem is sometimes I don't want to stop a combo at an obvious time. I might want to let you get 40k creature tokens and then play my rakdos charm.
But realistically, in paper, you can just skip to that point. Here, being online, this is clearly a flaw rather than a feature.
Nice. Thx for pointing out the useful detail too of the abbreviation for MODO-- I always heard it said but always assumed those old timers were saying a diff pronunciation of MTGO as a nickname. But somehow I never knew the words... "magic online wl digital objects"
yeah I remember friends pronouncing MTG Online as Mateego for a long time
Its crazy how MODO stuck. It was the original name of MTGO but its officially been MTGO for as long as I've played it (since 8th edition, like 2004).
Coming from tabletop wargames, where playing to clock out your opponent has been 1: around for a very long time and 2: still viewed contentiously by many, I wish you the best of luck with this in MODO.
Ya, as someone who has played a couple of local tourneys in various places over the years, clocks and sportsmanship are... finnicky. Slow play is already a thing in MtG tourneys. I know part of the draw for digital is that we don't need judges supervising the table, but honestly if it's going to be competitive (and potentially money on the line) there needs to be a third party to make judgement calls. The main goal of competitive anything isn't for a good time, it's to win and sportsmanship has no place in winning, just following the letter of the rules.
On the flipside though, 'stalling' or playing the clock is already against the rules in most competitive tourneys. What is stalling, thinking slow, or just not being utterly efficient with your deck? What is a 'reasonable' amount of time to think and discuss in a 3+ format without switching over the clock to the person trying to make deals or consider their options? This is something that really should have a third party, like a judge for the event, making these calls and handing out warnings/losses because of it.
As a storm player and former twin player, I have always been in the mindset of "Look, I picked this deck. You don't owe me a concession, I'm the one wasting our time here." If you aren't willing to play out the combo, don't play the combo.
I'm firmly on the camp that the player knew there would be a 20 minute timer and still decided to play the combo. They will play it out. Specially in EDH where token combos are 3x longer than in 1v1.
And just from a practical perspective, I wouldn’t want to bring a deck like that into a competitive event and hope that all of my opponents will scoop if I present the combo, but haven’t actually won yet.
In old school yugioh there’s an infamous card known as Yata-Garasu. When it deals damage, your opponent skips their next draw phase and it has the downside of returning to the hand at the end of the turn. It led to a combo deck known as "Yata Lock" where you aim to get rid of as many cards as your opponent's as possible just to lock them out of ever drawing an answer or a win ever again.
I mention all this because it takes 40 swings with that bird to kill an opponent as it's so weak so most would just scoop when presented with the lock. And the AI in older games would do so even, it was that well known and prevalent that even Konami decided to program knowledge of it into their games.
WotC just needs to either give MODO a massive ease of use update so you don't feel like you're playing something janky as fuck from the late 90s, or introduce the cards and effects from MODO into Arena and then give MODO the ol' yeller treatment.
I have found MODO to be way easier to use than Arena. Whenever I come back to Arena, I really miss the ability to right-click a trigger and save targets or always yield, and I hate how Arena lets my opponent know that I have an instant in hand.
@patrickcreamer6791 you know you can have arena not auto-pass priority so you can always appear to present a response, right?
@@happyguy333it doesn’t have any of MODO’s features for “and save targets” “always yield” “always yes to this” which save soooo much time.
@@olly123451True, but it then saves all that time and more by not being such a janky user experience. I'm saying Arena is better, but MODO could really use a major overhaul.
@@happyguy333 honestly MODO isn’t actually all that Janky, it just isn’t flashy like Arena. It’s a little cumbersome to learn but the tools are all there at your disposal. And it’s gotten significantly better since Daybreak took over, already we’ve seen a massive overhaul of counter/effect icons.
Arena will always be better to play and watch, but MODO is incredibly impressive with what it can do considering how much it’s had to manage.
I think that, since it's impossible for a program to detect an infinite loop (the solution to this "Halting Problem" was proven undecidable in the early 1900's), being able to define a repeatable action can help solve this. Say you want to always scry to the top with Thrasios, and then let MODO put your land on the battlefield or card into hand, and repeat it for how many cards in your deck. The game performs those actions and waits for opponents to respond. If the opponent has nothing, it goes through it X times, and ends the loop, so long as it's capable of performing the actions that a player defined.
I honestly hate the way that the paper clock system works. It incentivizes people to monopolize the time allotted. The only recourse you have is to call a judge and have them babysit your slow playing opponent. Yet in a regular lgs setting this isn’t really feasible. So what happens is the control player does everything in their power to make sure the second game in a match doesn’t come to completion. I much prefer a chess clock system where your victory comes down to your agency. It makes sure the game is constantly moving and if its not your opponent knows they are using an allotted time as a resource that they will run out of. I know no one likes losing to the clock but i think thats way better than losing because your opponent roped you while starring you in the face.
I think you make them play it out every time. Your opponent knew about the time restraints when they built the deck, chose to put in the combo, and then chose to play slow enough to not give them enough time to win. If my opponent can’t win while I’m actively F6’ed then they don’t deserve to win imo
I don't play MODO, and only play EDH in paper, but I play tons of Draft on Arena. I will always, ALWAYS allow my opponent to rope if they are slow playing, including rushing my own turn to put the clock back on them ASAP. In general I'm against scooping until they literally make the game winning swing, there's always a chance they mess up and don't read the board correctly. For all my efforts I think I've gotten exactly 2 wins in my easily 1000+ games where I coulda/shoulda scooped and they just timed out for whatever reason, and I'd much prefer a real game to an opponent roping, but when there's gems on the line, we're going to time.
In online tournaments with real winnings, What about having a Judge determine that lethal is presented and demand the other three players present a response or scoop?
I know getting a fifth person as an observer is expensive/often-impractical. So what if you also incentivize random players to act in this role for the smaller cedh competative games?
Frankly if there's money being put into and coming out of a tourney, the organization running it should pony up for a licenced/official judge for MtG. Every paper MtG tourney, even a 'official' local tourney with a minimum required turnout for it to count, had one or two. One was a store employee and they usually had another one who was participating who could make calls for another table but had to call the store employee for any disputes in their games. Larger stores had more employees able to be official judges.
Playing to the Format has always been Genius to me. Like playing to your local Meta Game and understand some decks won't work.
I quite often play chess clock commander at the lgs as there is nothing worse then a 3 hour game because everyone is playing mediocre decks. 15 mins each if you time out you lose. Stops people taking 15 mins for a turn where they do a whole lot of not much.
The problem with magic online is that you have to run the infinite combos 1 click at a time, only way you can solve that problem is by improving the platform, which probably wont happen...
We have had very few problems with chess clock magic, keeps games shorter and doesn't soft ban anything in paper at least.
The only rule that really comes with it is that if you want to in response something you just have to do it as you are wasting time on someone elses clock if 2 people say it at the same time naturally its whoever would be passed priority 1st.
Not seen anyone clock themselves out yet, but it has gotten very close a few times.
Better idea: if a chess clock is to be used in the format, either define it in the event, or put it up for a vote before the game starts. As they say at competitive events, "time is a resource.." does it lead to soft bans? Sort of... But you can also learn to complete the interaction in a more time-effective way.
Its not the players being slow with the combo's its literally the MODO itself being slow. Go watch old commander clash videos a single game for them could take 2-3 hours and end with MODO crashing. And it would take 5 seconds per trigger to finish resolving the stack with them not even needing to click something, just waiting for MODO to work through the triggers.
@@atk9989Phil constantly praying his big ass stack of triggers doesn't brick the client lol
I dont mind the clock and whatever. I'm the type of guy that let the infinite combo player plays his infinite combo untill a mistake is made😂
If you have an infinite combo with no actual outlet to win (Infinite lifegain loop), Yes, get clocked. If you are truly presenting a lethal combo or lockout combo (Myco/Karn) yes, scoop. And a timer definitely needs to be present in paper magic.
One thing that MODO could do to help timer situations is to have a demonstrated loop continue a set amount of times like people often shortcut with paper or Cockatrice.
I think that your suggestion of having a vote-to-concede option is a great idea in general and should be in place. As you also said, that could lead to some trolling or griefing where one person forces everyone to stay despite not also having interaction, but overall I think it's a beneficial thing to add to help encourage people to either make plays or leave. Heck, nothing's stopping multiple people from conceding if the vote-to-concede fails a few times. That then forces the person who was staying in to either do their thing or also concede like the rest of the people. Having the vote-to-concede option be only for the non-active players/the people whose turn it currently isn't would make the most sense so the person who has the perceived victory can't troll and force people to stay only to do nothing.
All in all, I think if someone demonstrates an overwhelming boardstate and has clear victory then it's scummy to not concede assuming there's no interaction to prevent the victory. That's not to say as soon as someone has a bajillion tokens and/or life that you concede immediately, but if you don't have something to mitigate that boardstate then you should. Someone could have a cyc rift, someone could be playing infect, someone may even be near lethal in commander damage, so at the end of the day those aren't necessarily impossible barriers. However, if the table goes around with no responses to stop the boardstate or person from winning then it's time to just leave and start a new game.
I think some people forget that, at the end of the day, Magic is a social multiplayer game. We all have our individual plans and goals for the game, but we're all choosing to play a game together. Communication is key in Magic. Sometimes it may reveal plans or ideas, but not only is that part of the fun, but it also allows situations like this to be prevented.
Nice editing!
i think he should get a raise
Running out the clock is scummy.
Since the clock is something everyone knows about going into a game then it’s something you have to play around. In a competitive environment I’d wait to see if they can beat the clock and wouldn’t feel bad at all.
Once you have a clock that effects decisions and should be considered when choosing and playing your deck. You are right our actual time is of value so choose when and where and what you want to play. There is a difference between online and in person so take heed.
My 0,02€ :
First, definitively scumbag, but *only* if we can collectively agree that the clock is not meant to be a part of the core Magic the Gathering game but an unfortunate limitation introduced for practicality issues.
Second, even if we could even *all* agree on that, people would still try unless they *know* that they cannot "get away with it".
In paper, we try to solve that problem with "tournament rules" and "judges", and we could do the same with MTGO. There would be 3 options for WotC : paid judges, volunteers, or automatic enforcement by algorithms (or a mix of the three).
Unfortunately, paid judges cost money, I'm not sure enough people would want to work for free so that Wizards can make more money, and algorithms, well, let's just say I'm *very* skeptical.
TLDR : yes, that is scumbag behavior, no, you won't be able to persuade them or shame them in changing that behavior, and Wizards will do nothing meaningful to change that because Capitalism?
PS : love the videos, please keep them coming !
I'm an aggro player. I don't like the combos mentioned. I don't like decks that do fuck all for 15 minutes and then want to win at the last second because after drawing thirty extra cards, they're ready to win.
If they have to take some L's cause they can't play to a timer, that's their problem.
Yeah, I can see it annoying paper players especially, but they're now in a format where time is a resource. If you get greedy with your mana base, that's a deckbuilding problem. If you get greedy with the length of your combo lines, well, that's exactly the same issue isn't it?
Your statement cuts both ways.
I'm a control player. I play control because I love trying to solve the puzzle of gameplay.
I don't like the aggro decks because I actually want to play Magic instead of either effectively winning or losing by turn 4.
@@_effigy_ then you should be happy. The clock adds another aspect to your puzzle.
@@m.mulder8864 I haven't been to time in years mate. I play fast enough. I'm just havin a jab at you cause of your hate of control decks.
Without us combo decks would run outta control
This entire take is one giant fat L. If your take were an object, it would have its own gravitational pull.
You assume that it's the player being slow when, in reality, it's the decades old client that can barely sort itself out.
Be a man and just say you don't want other people to play the things they like because it makes you feel some type of way
Paper magic should be played with chess clocks at high level tournaments. But you may say "then we would have to pass priority back and forth so many times each turn", but how about this. If you want to take priority during your opponent's turn, simply tap THEIR button on the chess clock. For example, if your opponent casts a creature that you want to counter, you tap your opponent's button on the chess clock to pass the priority to yourself, tap your lands, cast your counterspell, and then tap YOUR button on the chess clock to pass priority back to your opponent. Opponent attacks with a creature and you want to lightning bolt it before damage? Tap THEIR BUTTON, cast lightning bolt, then tap YOUR BUTTON to pass priority back. In chess, we only tap our own button on the chess clock, but in Magic, we tap both!! Problem solved!
If there was a chess clock on paper instead of the explain the loop rule, people wouldn't concede.
MODO being different than paper is the problem here.
The part I don't like it's the 20min BS turns oozing even into precons (the ur from otj) and my spite over that is... Well, kinda irrelevant.
If someone starts messing with draws and grave for 10 min while blabbing what could be paradise lost in a foreign language, I concede. I was trying to have fun, watching someone playing solitaire isn't fun.
In tournaments, I play by the rules. If there's the loop rule, you win. If there's a clock winning the game for me, I win. Doing otherwise would make everything subjective.
One of my favorite decks was abusing ETBs with Lumbering Battlement, I had three battlements(via clone effects) and a Wall of Lost Thoughts.. Opponent was dead by mill, but Arena times you put before you can loop enough
I think for cEDH the answer is easy. There is no rule 0, you try to win at all times, at all costs. That includes clocking out your opponents, or specifically avoiding decks/strategies that might cause you to clock out.... GO!
If you want exactly paper magic, play paper magic
For CEDH Remove the total time. People will scoop when you have the win. Maybe implement a system similar to arenas to make sure that people are taking game actions and moving the game along
If MTGO had a reasonable block system this wouldn't be as much of an issue. We need to be able to keep people from joining games just to troll and grief. Had a game where everyone is at about 56-58 minutes remaining and one guy at 40 or 45. The most basic turns took almost 10 minutes cuz this guy with no actions refused to click yield when he had no game actions. That would get you a game loss in paper magic.
I don’t play MODO, never have, never will. Same with Arena. However, I played a TON of league of legends. I think the surrender vote is a valid option, and as you said griefing would still be problematic.
My personal philosophy is I want to see the win- infinite combos sure, but how do you win. Infinite life, cool, but how do you win? You can still deck someone by winning, and have won purely out of spite against a life gain opponent that had less cards in their library.
What does C means un CEDH?
Yeah its "Competitive".
If you can use politics to win in CEDH then you can do whatever you think can help you achieve that as MODO already prevents you from cheating not like it paper magic
If it's a truly "competitive" format, then rules as written. With the proviso that some of WoTC's billions could probably go to a cheap AI that can figure out handling infinite combos.
And then bring chess clocks to paper tournaments instead of just timing the rounds.
I think there's two types of deterministic combo and one ought take up the timer and one ought have a "demonstrate loop" button. The splinter twin/pester mite combo is firmly in demonstrate loop combo in that, its a simple set of game actions which IRL can be abstracted, IRL once its begun it actually takes less time than many non-combo turns. There's also things like Lotus Field Combo - where IRL the turns take about 10 minutes because there's so many separate things going on - which are also often non-interactive but conversely might not resolve with a win so the opponent doesn't scoop until its shown that they're dead onboard. As a consequence I think you should be fighting the clock for something like Lotus Field combo, and I think you should be able to essentially Macro an infinite combo which is straightforward in paper like splinter twin.
TL;DR , I think a judge should be allowed to determine if the game is won. I do not know all combos in the game, and relying on people to tell me I lose, only works if I believe you.
Gitrog combo in paper is a deck I don't see anymore because everyone always wants them to play out the full combo. I've had 3 friends build him and take him apart because it's fun to win with the combo, but it isn't fun to do the combo. Thinking about this makes me believe that a clock can invoke some interesting play patterns.
I play 2D fighting games in my spare time, and in those games, you practice landing your combos before going into competetive. Combo's in mtg are similar. If you're too slow, you get punished, and if you know what you're doing, then you know how to not go infinite, just enough to kill. Switching from fighting games to chess, that game actually has a fun way to deal with "I can't win, but I can stall" in that if you stall with only a king, you draw due to insufficient time vs lacking material. I'm not saying draws should be more common, but losing on time in the middle of a game winning combo sucks. However, that presents the idea of staxx being played for time wins.
If you cannot win in the alloted time, you lose. This enforces that you have to know what you're doing. If each player has their own clock, that is the best option. I believe that not having a turn timer, but a player timer stops some stupid stall tactics people do do.
All the people in the comments saying "time is a resource" and "it's all fair to force people to demonstrate the entire loop over and over again until the win is set "in war"" should realize that they have no right to complain about Thassa's Oracle Demonic Consultation wins then. If you cannot present lethal to win, then the metagame will focus solely on the clock which means, you’ll have the control decks that try and force people to lose time and the only ACTUAL combo that will win the game is Thassa's since it happens immediately. So, for me, yes. This is just being a dick because you're salty that you didn’t assemble your combo before your opponent.
For loops maybe it could be possible to just allow users to add arbitrary game items. Like "copy this token 9999 times". But because it's not part of rules all other players would need to accept that you can perform this "illegal" action. Could be similar to the tools we have in deckbuilding websites, just with additional step of accepting/rejecting the thing.
It seems like CEDH prides itself on using all the rules to maximum advantage. The clock is one of those rules. In real life, there is also a social "clock" in that when you do a combo that eats up so much time, everyone is looking at you wondering why you played this deck. LOL I do think the answer isn't more unwritten rules, but MODO needs to get better at doing combos.
Just have the 20 minutes each clock, if you drop below 3 minutes, you go back up to 3 for your next turn. Everyone wants to play more Magic, the clock is to stop people from durdling around, doing nothing, so if you've used your 20 minutes, you get 3 minute turns now. Enough to not get screwed trying for infinites, but punishes if your game actions are partially slow.
I think that cEDH is fine, but I have no interest to play it. I don't like the impact it's had on the casual format. Some people don't know how to keep their deck casual and build to be cutthroat. It might not win a lot at cEDH, but it wins too much in casual formats. Perhaps there needs to be more than just two or three sub-formats for EDH to really help people know what's appropriate to play and what's expected at the table. I appreciate that cEDH has that without rule 0 convos that many people don't know how to participate in.
Anyways, this is a great video and it gives me yet another reason to avoid online play. I agree with you though that you should just concern concede if the opponent would win without the clock. Anyone who is arguing against you that it's genius, are actually scumbags lol. I don't think there should be a clock in EDH, at least not less than cEDH. It's fun to me to watch people do crazy things, even though it takes up time. That's what casual is about. Some games are a little faster. Some are not so much. Some end up kind of sucking and we take those decks apart or edit them to avoid that again
This is the problem with interactions where you face no human beeing. People start behaving shitty, when there is noone to interact with (or who could be offended and would confront you with your shitty behaviour). Like online.
This is why trolling exist. And roping on arena. or outtiming on modo, although it is shitty behaviour and wouldn't be left unchalllenged face to face.
Or another example are cars. People tend to drive reckless and ruthless because they are enclosed in this anonymity box. So no social consequences.
Not on your page here, kenobi. But only because competitive play already showed, that there is no "gentleman agreement". I draw my example from yugioh. There exist a card or multiple that win you the whole match instead of just one round when it kills the enemy. And the scene plus judges ruled, despite the cards being not legal, that they can be countered by simply giving up in response. People simply side which is suits them better in any given context. So no, i wouldnt scoop. There is a rule, writen in the game, i am not obliged to scoop. if you cant finish your combo in time, thats your problem. Just like with the dragon in yugioh - i would argue, when he hits the board and my enemy scoops, he does it because he cant stop him. But nah, nobody agrees. My take from the story is: there simply are people who cry if they cant play the strongest stuff in any given game.
Should you concede when presented with lethal on board/an infinite combo? Morally yes, strategically no. The chess clock is an inherent mechanical element of digital magic. While I think it's a nice idea for digital magic to try and emulate paper, fundamentally that can't happen and in the other cases where a mechanical constraint exists, like misclicking or accidentally passing priority, we just accept it as part of the game. The clock is no different. I believe if you are playing something competitively, all that matters are the actual, explicit rules of the game (in this case that you lose after spending 20min with priority), you don't get to use a moral lens to change the rules. While I would hate somebody doing to me, I would respect their right to do it.
I feel almost all this calling them “genius” is a stretch. Almost anyone know “if your opponent clock is low, you can lame them out (have them lose on time) instead of lose a lost game”. It happens in the lowest elo of chess where players below 800 will play only with their king because “my opponent will take too long to do the mate”.
Does it mean I think it’s a scum bag move to lame it out? It depends. It’s clearly a scum bag move if you talked it out and agree not to if it’s a clear lethal. But if you not talked it out and there is a small % you fizzle, I think it’s ok. There is a bit of gray inbetween.
Fully scumbag. If they are still drawing, and they're "likely" to get it, but haven't yet when the clock ends, that's one thing. But if they present the combo, and show they functionally understand how to play it, game is done.
Honestly, people just shouldn't talk at a CEDH MTGO game. Isn't it supposed to be competitive? Competitive 1v1 doesn't need talking. (I just dont think CEDH is truly competitive.)
I don't play cEDH and haven't used Modo, so I'm a little surprised that there isnt a system for mass scoop.
That said I feel it's scummy. The politics of regular edh can often eat more time than the game itself I can't imagine how much of a problem that is in cEDH. Yes you need to be aware of the clock but loosing to clock sounds bad. I wouldn't want to win because my opponent lost to time especially if they are trying to present lethal.
*Infinite combos don't work? I wish someone had told me sooner!* I mean, I would absolutely never ever ever play something or I have to individually buy fake cards with excessive amounts of real money, That's a completely moronic thing to do, but no wonder people like playing older formats on there!
The problem with these combos is that someone might have a response AFTER the combo has been finished. So, if I have a fog effect in hand, you'll have to go all the way with your combo because I am not wasting a fog on 3 faeries. This is a weakness of the client IMO.
I havn't played MOTO for years but when I did there was a combo running rampant in standard that would essentially make it so that one player couldn’t lose. If you had no answer for it, you couldn’t win, but the combo itself also isn’t a win it just means that the player using the combo couldn’t lose. Every time I encountered the combo I felt as if the opponent running the combo expected me to forfeit, but I felt no reason to forfeit because they didn’t win. This became a huge waste of time for both of us. I think that the timeclock is just part of the online experience and there unfortunately isn’t a way around that
Shortening the clock, and making it that players HAVE to manually play each action,
Thats wizards of the coast, hammering home that you simply cannot just say “i go infinite”
You have to click to tap the thing, click again to tap the other thing that untaps the first thing, rinse and repeat.
An “infinite” button on the digital game doesn’t work, the same way assuming your combo automatically wins regardless if you go infinite or not,
An opponent always has an opportunity to interact.
And they have the right to hold priority and make you jump through hoops despite not actually having a card in hand to interact with (thats called bluffing…. Yup, real scumbag move that is, right?)
I dont care what you present as lethal.
At any time, another player can pull out that card that forces a target player to skip the rest of their turn but can only be cast during combat…..
Stops the board flood,
And then bam another player slaps down the cleansing nova, and suddenly the person who ASSUMED they won, wants to scoop…..
Essentially, some of you need to learn not just how the mechanics work, but WHY they are what they are.
I'm a big believer in sportsmanship so I think as a matter of honor you should scoop as soon as someone demonstrates the loop. However, in a fully competitive format like cEDH I do think it is within your rights not to scoop. It's not very sporting, and I'll think less of you, but I won't stop you from doing it.
make the clock a 10 minute timer with a 2 second increment. if chess clock is mentioned already, i would like to see that beeing tried.
(for those that dont know. each action you take gives you 2 seconds (or any other ammount that would fit better, 2 was just my first idea) on your timer.
(maybe also add, that the timer cant grow bigger than 15 minutes))
They should do what they do in paper, so if you go to time, you have 5 turns collectively to finish the game, otherwise it's a draw. Still allows time for wincon combos to resolve, while encouraging players to keep the game moving.
I didn't know until fairly recently that closing the Arena app doesn't DC or surrender you, but keeps you in the game and ropes your opponent.
Apologies to all the opponents I've accidentally roped while playing Magic out and about on my phone.
I think for a format like cedh where the game is won with combos clocks are probably bad? I don't really play that format though. With the clock as a whole, I think if you know it's a thing going in its like any other resource. People may not always like it, but I don't see anything less legitimate or scumbag about using my alloted ti.e against my opponents anymore than using a high life total to grind a game out in paper, or counters to drag the game into the long game. If I'm presented witha resource I'm going to use it, whether or not it is or is not an unpopular decision. Personal time is important, but I already know I'm committing mine to the game and I expect my opponent to feel the same. That's just my view though, I get how frustrating it can be to have the win and not enough time to execute it, and I know going to time at events sucks pretty hard, but it's part of the game
I personally believe that having a clock, in a multiplayer format, that aims to create amazing and crazy gameplay and tell a cool story is kinda contra productive. The whole idea of the commander format is to create a social experience. And like you say, having a clock works against having conversations and plotics.
But there are also so many cool combos.
Just look at Game Knights live, where they used a clock. Gaven Varhey did amazing things, he played commander as it is intended, and almost lost bc of time. Is that really the way we wanna play?
I absolutly agree, that we need a clock in an online 1vs1 competitive enviroment. Often times I have been so annoyed with my opponents on Arena for taking forever on their turns, and I was more than glad, that the game pushed them to do something.
But if you wanna chat and just have a fun experience, why limit the time you have to do that?
I think it can be a bit of both. Being that I play some arena, nothing gets me like tmny opponent spamming, your turn, 40 times in a row. So if they end up in an infinite loop, I sure let them run the clock and waste their time. They won't ever lose to the clock, but why give a jerk the satisfaction of quitting the game.
IMO, if the clock is part of the game, it's valid for anyone to strategize with the clock in mind. If this leads to unfun play patterns it's on the developers to figure out a better system.
I play MTG more casually, my main "competitive" background is in fighting games. In the fighting game community there's a very strong culture of "take the game as it is, play to win within the parameters the game provides". Mandating rules or restrictions on play is rare, and reserved only for clearly unintended bugs or unlockable secret/boss characters that are obviously designed to be overpowered.
So I tend to agree with the view that if playing to win is not fun, then it's a game design problem and not a community problem. In the FGC, people just opt to not play games where the balance is too skewed, or they just stick to the dominant characters and optimize those. Of course, if you're playing among friends then make whatever rules you want and have fun. But trying to work around design issues with unwritten community rules is just a recipe for frustration. There's no way to enforce an early scoop, so there will always be the uninitiated player or the competitive player that isn't going to play along. If winning matters (and since the discussion is on who deserves to win, I'll assume we all agree on that to some extent), then you're straight up buffing people who let long plays timeout. These things can become a race to the bottom where the community standard falls apart and you're left with a pool of "honorable" players who constantly feel bad about the game.
It's a shame that the digital format with the deepest card support has these flaws, but I think they're just flaws that are, like you said, what you sign up for when you play. The way I see it the only sustainable options are to not play MODO, or play within the game's current design while advocating for improvements.
"An understanding" is not a way to manage a game, especially not one with prizing. This is another situation where the social contract enforcement mechanism of commander is insufficient to handle the problem. A surrender vote is susceptible to collusion. You need top-down management and enforcement here.
I would not concede but I don't view online magic as the same game as paper magic. I know this is an unpopular opinion but the 2 versions of magic have different rules to me. You don't share a timer so you only need to manage your own time. Therefore you should bring a deck that can win within that set of rules. Again, not a popular opinion and I think the arguments for the other side a good arguments.
as a non-competitive player, clocking someone out sounds both genius and scummy. I get that all win-cons are valid, but if player A has no actual game playing way (no cards that they can play or activate) to to take that win away, then just running out the clock seems dirty to me. People that do this are probably the same ones that will buy up all the houses in monopoly and never sell them for Hotels, so noone else can ever buy houses.
Having a timer is per-se not bad, we all allocate some time to playing the game and if it is shown like that it is okay. However, winning the game based on the technicality of the opponent having to click through a combo x times and running out of time there is shit.
If you have an interaction that can stop it or at least keep you alive, totally different thing. But just "let the clock run out on them so they lose when they would win obviously" - wtf? That is not game play, that is ruining the fund and abusing the system.
I see the clock in a similar way as mill. You run out of the resources you need to play? Well, it doesn't matter if it's cards or time, you die.
Does it feel bad? Sure, as does dying to mill because you drew 2 more cards than your opponent 10 turns ago, but the game has to end at some point.
I would love for paper limited events to have a per game chess clock instead of the normal general time limit. At the last sealed event I played I was forced to concede or take a draw in game 3 because my opponent dragged his feet through game 1 and 2 and just happened to be about two life higher than me (both in the high teens of life) when time was called. His argument was that he was winning therefore I should concede, meanwhile I had the better board state and was going to turn things around. If there had been chess clocks, he would have lost outright because he was playing so goddamn slow.
If we are talking about a competitive match online then time management is a skill. They shouldnt only have 2 minutes left by the time they have the combo assembled. If they are willing to spend tickets on an event, then they should look at it as having spent money to get that time. On the other hand, when its a "match for fun", would it really matter when the clock runs out? You don't feel like you won when they clearly had the win, but "lost" to time.
It doesn't matter If you have a combo or not. Stalling is stalling, and you should lose the game If you're out of time. If you don't like it, just play a non-degenerate strategy.
Politics is important in EDH. Being denied the ability to make deals do to the clock would be frustrating.
It should be a chess clock. competitive pokemon tournaments (not the card game) had a finals where a person literally slow played just to time out the clock because if they timed out theyd win and if they played at a normal pace they were in an almost guaranteed losing position and then they bragged about timing out their opponent in the post game interview. Like, what a piece of shit.
Just going to throw out there that Duels of the Planeswalkers had answers for all of these problems. Including a communal scoop button ..\
Play to the format if you want to concede because you have no possible way to win why should you if your opponent can’t actually win on their clock either. You both knew you had 25 minutes going in it’s not a surprise
Players should use the clock to their advantage. I don’t think it’s scummy to use it as a resource, especially if there is monetary investment (i.e. leagues).
There is also the aspect of new people playing... I dont know every combo and card, so its not always obvious if its a combo or a combo kill i'm seeing. If there is no talking happening i might not realise its a combo kill happening ( or take some time to realise). The social interaction side is important for many reasons
Infinite damage that i cant stop, i concede. Infinite life, i dont concede as i can also combo off and push through. I do make plays considering Infinite life though, so like i never attack or target that player with small bits of direct damagem
I personally think it's scumbag to make them lose to the clock when they have a deterministic infinite combo. In paper you can shortcut it, and a shortcoming of the client shouldn't become a win condition.
i think people should just adapt and play acording to the clock. Pretty similar to how local tournaments with local rules works or special formats with their own distinct rules. Bring shorter combos or stop comboing at all.
I think giving like 5 seconds to your clock for every action you take once you get below a minute would help with this and would only really effect combo players.
As long as you are playing for some sort of prize or placement especially against strangers then there is nothing wrong with playing to how the rules are set up. If running the clock is a viable strategy then people will use it and if you don't want to put yourself behind then you should not exclude doing it on principle.
In a casual game with nothing on the line it's a different story.
Quick fix. Make it so that any time priority is currently given to a none active turn player then make it so that ALL none active turn players clocks run. That make it so that the 'politic' conversations eat the time of each player who benefit from the politics talk.
I don’t even like the chess clock in the Command Zone’s live games at events, you shouldn’t lose a casual game because your deck has 5 more minutes of triggers.
In a casual game I'd say it's not worth doing. However there's also the part of me that wants to say in a very competitive setting you take your advantages, although I'll say take those advantages within limits don't be an ass hole.
If they want to remove the clock then they would have to add a way to deal with players going afk or stalling for no reason. Best way to do this imo is something dueling books(a online yugioh thing like cockatrice for magic) does they have admins and you can call them to come to your game to review logs and end games if a player afks or in there case cheats which isnt as much of a problem here as its not manual like duelingbooks
I think it is 100% a scumbag thing to do. Also, I think that MTGO should allow you in someway to set up a loop and say do this x many times
Unpopular opinion. But I kinda wish sometimes they had a format that was time restrained like blitz chess.
if you're gonnna lose just take the loss beacuse if you win by intentionally timing out your opponent I'll consider you the least skilled player in the league.
Wizards needs to spend the money to make a good game. Whether that's paper or online. If they don't then it's on them. I don't play online because id want the infinite loop built into the system automatically. The onus is not in the player to concede.
If your combo runs the risk of running out the clock, maybe it's not a good enough combo for competitive play
Magic is all about manipulating the rules to your advantage. I think playing to the clock meta is genius.
Part of winning on MTGO includes winning in a timely manner. If you time out, you didn't deserve to win.
I dont like the idea of voting to end simply for the fact that more than you'd imagine, people that are combining off, don't actually have it for one reason or another.
I want to see the receipts
In Casual it's a Scumbag move. In Competitive it's Genius. In competition people will use any and every advantage they have. If you making a combo that takes too long knowing it might fizzle to the clock and you still choose to use it, That mean's they would be leaving money on the table to just scoop to you even though you would be beat by the clock.
All's fair in love and war.
But it's a pg-13 card game not war.
I think it's mean and unsportsmanlike, but given that it's a known part of the engine, it's not atrocious. Just not cool to do.
Infinite life? That doesnt translate to winning in CEDH because you can deck you out in paper so I see no issue with waiting out someone's clock
Infinite damage? If I see the loop I'll scoop if I or someone else can't stop it
I think it was hilarious when Seth would time out in Commander Clash even though he had the win. But that's a thing of the past because they're playing paper now!
Well I personally think combo is one of the most boring shit to play against, so I welcome a new change that fucks them over
Running someone's clock is a tactic in chess, so yeah, absolutely, go for it. The clock is there for a reason.
Always play it out. I've played enough cocky opponents in person who claim they have the win or can't explain their wincon and then go on to lose the game, that I will never concede.
When money is on the line I see no reason not to take any option they can to win, if it’s casual then yes I will always concede. As a side note please god don’t let the clock be longer commander is already so painful online 😂