Elaine Pagels - What do "secret gospels" suggest about Jesus and his teaching?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ย. 2019
- On October 30, 2019, we hosted Dr. Elaine Pagels as the featured speaker at our annual interfaith academic conference.
She gave two lectures, the first being "What do 'secret gospels' suggest about Jesus and his teaching?" ( / zaq8dsxdxq ) which was followed by a Panel discussion with Robert Van Voorst, Professor Emeritus of Western Theological Seminary, Sheldon Kopperl, Professor Emeritus, GVSU, Diane Madoush-Pitzer, Professor of Religious studies, GVSU with Douglas Kindschi, Kaufman Interfaith Institute's director, moderating. The panel discussion is viewable here: • Elaine Pagels - Why Re...
The evening session was a conversation between Dr. Pagels and Calvin University's Frans van Liere which focused on her latest book, "Why Religion: A Personal Story" in which she reflects on the persistence and nature of belief and why religion matters in the wake of her own great personal tragedy: the death of her young son, followed a year later by the shocking loss of her husband. The evening session is available here: • Elaine Pagels - Why Re...
Dr. Pagels is an American religion historian. She is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University. Pagels conducted extensive research into early Christianity and Gnosticism as a part of her graduate study at Harvard University. Her best-selling book The Gnostic Gospels examines the divisions in the early Christian church, and the way women were viewed throughout Jewish and Christian history. Modern Library named it as one of the 100 best books of the twentieth century.
In 2001, Sylvia Kaufman brought together a group called the West Michigan Academic Consortium in order to extend the work of the West Shore Committee for Jewish-Christian Dialogue and the Kaufman Interfaith Institute. The mission of these groups is to provide programming that leads to greater interfaith understanding and mutual acceptance.
The committee consists of representatives from Aquinas College, Calvin College, Calvin Theological Seminary, Cornerstone University, Grand Valley State University, Hope College, Kuyper College and Western Theological Seminary. They jointly choose the speakers and plan the conferences; the participating schools rotate hosting the conferences.
Find out more at interfaithunderstanding.org
My mother used to think there was more to the Bible than what was taught at our church. She said many things didn't make sense, there were conflicts, etc. I wish she were alive today, she would love these, alternative views.
In her final days, she bought the 'Lost Books of the Bible" but, she didn't read it as she was in the process of passing over. I have the book, now
I pray to your mom all the time because she's the way, the, truth and the life
Marvelous! When somebody can speak off the cuff for an hour on something she knows and understands, you know you've found a real teacher and someone who loves what she's talking about. What great insight! Thank you!
⁰⁰
100%. Recently stumbled across Pagels, and she is able to reveal what I've been looking for to support the mis treatment of those who choose for themselves, rather than by an institution.
Elaine's energy and enthusiasm in her studies is infectious. Pleasure to watch someone so engaged
she get turnt around the 48 min mark. she was just getting warmed up before then
Who the hell you think you are . A bunch of fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretend to understand guess you know deceiving self exactly void in know unknown exactly deceiving even self unknown to even self refuse to question any play educated guesser pretenders of understanding question none talk out arrogant jackass unknown to even self returned to one true and just known self reborn two became one in one whole in one whole in one returned to the father walked the golden Path reborn 3 in one whole in one whole in one known self reborn walked threw door reborn 3 is the golden age of one whole in one known to the father healed in the Holy Spirit in one whole in one perfect known self reborn two became one the day you one you became two divided split a piece of wood and I AM there . If make two into one heal in the Holy Spirit in one self one against two two against three three against two two against three . Three in one walk threw door reborn on the golden Path to the father 369 returned to beginings without ends in one whole in one whole in one whole in one many and five stand as one known before he was born undeniably proclaimed three times over before he was born three times three times over out womb and in man born the living Son of Man won't taste death . And five stand as one known to the ALL seen self as the forth in heaven and five stand as one . Who the hell you pretending to what the hell you call it best be done playing prophets sure as hell false prophets if keep it up question none pretend to understand guess you know deceiving self exactly unknown j
Hell no
What the hell wrong with people ? If you don't have Thoth's curse pathological lying ego arrogant masters in Deceiving self guess you know figured it out positive you guess you know self proclaimed people proclaimed proves only unknown unproclaimed deniable false prophets if anything best know it
One of the things that kind of blows my mind, as a former evangelical, is that the versions of Christianity that became mainstream is solely because they were the most authoritarian ones. Adopted by the main authorities of their time. This says nothing about their claim to be the "one".
Thanx. This can be said about all religions.
did you ever think it was rejected because it tells his followers they find the beginning in themselves , and not the church
These people while actively bringing invaluable insights of history into view, don’t care about the why, only the what and the how. This is academic not spiritual. But yes my friend, it was rejected because it took the power from the priesthood and put it in the hands of the people. To seek the experience God through yourself rather than require the church to dispense it to you was considered heresy.
canon gospels were the oldest, heretic were written later and not reliable.
@@mareklame8589 I suppose you’d never be interested in reading the gospels found at nag hammadi? Have you ever asked yourself what you’d believe in if you were alone in the world and had no one to tell you what to believe? Do you think it would be wrong? For you to not have a chance to experience any gospels whatsoever, do you think that would lead you to hell? Without being given the thing that everyone is suppose to find if they want to be saved. Trust me the things you’d come up with by yourself about life are much more aligned to the notions of the apocrypha and the real words of Jesus the Christ, not the canon. The canon was curated by a group of ambitious power hungry sexist judgmental bigots, and to this day the Roman church has contaminated the word of Jesus by people defending “canon” that is such a stupid word in the first place. Authoritative? Wow. “I like your Christ, I don’t like your Christians, your Christians are not like your Christ” - Gandhi.
@@mareklame8589 the earliest of which being at least 60 years after the DOC.... nobody who had ever met yeshua had written anything about him.
@@mareklame8589
Wow you must have been there.
Starts 7:13
Thanks, two introductions seemed a bit much!
Perhaps my favorite lecture by Elaine Pagels. The Gospel of Thomas's claim that "the kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth and men do not see it," would revolutionize how we read and understand the New Testament, not to mention how we practice Christianity. "It's not about faith...it's about knowing....who you are....--that created in the image, we too are children of the Father, intrinsically related to the divine....when you come to know who you are really, on the level of the heart, you come to know God as the source of your being."
Well said , friend .
There might be hope for humanity after all .
Why would you believe in the so-called Thomas gospel and not those written a hundred years closer to when Jesus lived. Jesus said we are to have faith in Him. He told the real Thomas how much better it will be for those that never saw Him to believe than those that knew Jesus. We are a child of God. We are not God's. We have life because God the creator made it so.
@@marvymarier8988 The hope for humanity is only through Jesus.
@@bcalvert321
Which God, Abraxas or Ialdaboath/Yaweh
@@Instramark Since you haven't a clue about anything, it is Yahweh. I guess those others are kind of new-age gods you worship.
I love Eileen pagels she is true speaker and comes from her heart ❤️ as she writes. She's such a great teacher.
My blessings and prayers go out to you
Thank you Dr pagels for your wonderful
Work for the truth.
One thing I like about Pagels is that she doesn't quickly disregard the "gnostic" gospels. One often sees those texts get short shrift.
The kingdom, the light, and the church are one until it is not. I recall her excitement introducing Gnostics. It is rather refreshing to see her after having studied those teachings. She is enlightened and lovely.
Interesting that you are in a position to judge whether and when she is/was enlightened. She sounds the same now as she did hen and is stills saying the same things.
"I've search for me, but only found God, I've search for God, but only found me". Rumi. Took "me" three years. Brothers and sisters please "do it", search for our true identity within. God, the Source, loves you all, because you are "it"."it" lives beyond the mind, in the silence and in "nothing", being nothing, it is all there is Unconditional LOVE.to "you" all.
Please say more
"Heaven is within your midst" or "You're already enlightened, but you don't know it."
Very good ! Through my walk, I have had several visions & 2 angel visitations. I was raised in a church who did Not believe in these things whatsoever. So I didn't either. But they happened anyway--especially after I told God from my gut "I just want to know the Truth--No Matter, what it is ".. I am old now & God has insisted all through my walk to watch out for "ego", continuously, but Not said in a mean or critical way--but there were so many reminders given to me from Him that I knew that it was very very important. I am glad that you brought the "ego" up & how it can hurt us & actually turn into a mental illness. I thank God that I know who He is and I know who I am and can enjoy the Spiritual benefits --without the ego. I believe that there are many like me and in no way special.
She did an excellent job. I can easily see how she makes some of the more orthodox and fundamentalist scholars go bonkers! i felt like she was apporachable and mostly interested in sharing her knowledge moreso than pushing it onto anybody. Very refreshing approach coming from a classically trained scholar. I like her. She is good. 👍
Her books are awesome! Very readable and interesting.
Elaine Pagels is the best in her field. She is simply wonderful.
I read her books, need more of this type of exploration of truth, getting beyond dogma. You might be branded a nut, but its better than sleepwalking
We have seven senses. Even waxing sentimental, the output is generally beneficient
The multiverse is a bit larger than names.
The Dao which can be named is not the eternal Dao...
You know all that...so...
Thanks for checking in
Well we have an encoded anomaly here
Maybe DNA will help.
Till then cheers
Magic is a strange law.
Its ineffable.
Words cannot cover the laws of it
I am kind of busy.
As I really cannot say that your words, at a glance are endearing, anymore than to caption each particular thought with my name foremost, this really cannot keep my attention as my intent is vested elsewhere; certainly not THIS dialog. It never reached the stage of familiarity or conversation, so peership is out, too.
I've read everything she has written beginning with the Gnostic Gospels. She has a remarkable ability to explain complicated and pretty dry subjects in a way that even I, who is not a Bible scholar, can understand them. Thank you Dr. Pagels.
On a totally separate note, there is a relatively well done movie loosely based on the idea of a rediscovered revolutionary gospel that must be supressed. It's pretty entertaining. I think it's called Stigmata.
Thank you for sharing. I will read the book.
If you love Elaine Pagels books, be futher enlightened with gnosticism of Israel and Christ.
Stigmata is dark...no thanks
Well circle is wide. Or not. Choosing is..... thing??
What about Jesus’ younger chinese brother Hong Xiuquan?
"To find God look inward." No wonder churches don't like this. It affects their business model.
And completely against what Jesus said hmmmmmm
@@sparky3006I don’t know if you’ve read what Jesus said but he plainly said this!
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17 verse 20-21
@@lordhughes7690 Also the psalms say god has wings . Hermeneutics learn it use it love it
I grew up from infancy in the Reformed Church of America, South Holland, Illinois version. Which makes stumbling into this discussion even more interesting than otherwise. I entered college at the time when the war in Vietnam was in its strongest rage. And realized that I am a conscientious objector. A stance my pastor made clear was not congruent with with my upbringing. I eventually found a home among
Quakers. And have come to believe that, by accident or design, George Fox, in 1640, intuited some of what we find in the Gospel of Thomas. Guidence by Devine Light, among other things. [So, who is in charge of such coincidences?]
Excellent question.
Really love this speaker. I have enjoyed some of her lectures before. Always lots of food for thought.
Yes
Elaine is wonderful!
Definitely don't throw them out. They're very accurate and profound.
One must know oneself. It gives one the paradigm, the template, needed to properly evaluate what is of the light. It begins with know oneself through meditation, meditation that opens one to insights and wisdom.
Knowing within, one is easily able to corroborate what is true, and one is able to ascertain the meaning of secret teachings.
Everything spiritual begins within oneself. One must draw from the inner well of wisdom through meditation.
Regarding the verse that states that if I have it within me, it will save me, if not, it will kill me, I would like to say this:
What one needs within to be saved is divine knowledge, the fruit of meditation.
If one is lacking this, he is in darkness, and his darkness will kill him, figuratively, symbolically.
And also regarding making the two one, male and female, evoking Genesis. There should be no differences, no partiality, no division. All is one.
As far as making her male, the female is associated with the flesh by her very nature of bearing children. This was associated with sin. To be male was about separation from the world, renunciation of the world, guarding against the sinful proclivities of the flesh.
Again, all is richly figurative and symbolic in understanding the mystical. Words are always pointing to something deeper.
Jesus is an archetype of one who is successful in realizing his Divine Essence. It makes John's verses make more sense. No one can attain the Father except through me --- we are that me. Look within through meditation. That's the fundamental and operative means to ascend or evolve spiritually. This is the teaching of all Scripture, of all wisdom writings, purify yourself from within.
Religions are corrupt because they pervert Scripture and teach righteousness through the outward. Truly, God does not care about whom you lie with, how long your hair should be, what you eat, or anything else external. Jesus said, what is outside a man does not defile him, it is what proceeds out of the heart that defiles him. He also said, clean the INSIDE of the cup.
So no, the gnostic texts should indeed not be thrown out. They are repositories of divine wisdom, which can be known only through meditation. The true repository of wisdom is within us!
The gnostic gospels were only thrown out because the Catholic Church was hunting these gnostics down and killing them. They we’re running and hiding for their lives and hiding their texts so as not to be caught with them. Possibly hiding them temporarily and meaning to come back for them but never made it back to them. 🤷🏼♀️ my personal belief.
I was thankful for her explanations. I had come to understand that what I was taught was lacking something.
I had already begun to examine the teaching about Jesus and was tending to go in the direction this lecture is pointing.
I feel blessed for having listened this morning.
Maybe it was just me, but when i first read the gospels, i got the odd impression that the words of Jesus were incomplete. Some how i thought to myself, this can’t be everything he said.
Same
@@puppies4eva788 Why did you thin that ? What could of been missing in your mind ?
Yes, I too had the sense we weren't getting the deeper teachings in mainstream Christianity. I was sure Jesus was teaching more, that he was a very enlightened mystic, and highly evolved spiritual entity incarnated to teach/help us too become enlightened. You don't teach calculus or physics to a first-grader! It makes sense to me that more spiritually advanced disciples who were ready to learn were given the oral/esoteric teachings that were not meant to be written down -- but someone did write at least some of these teachings. I do believe the Kabbalah (which means "received" tradition), the Jewish/Hebrew mystical tradition, goes all the way back to ancient times. The reason these mystical, esoteric teachings seem similar to Hindu, Buddhist, and Sufi (and other mystic traditions) is because all come down to inner wisdom/gnosis, mystical experience of the divine -- all point to the same spiritual Truth about who we really are!
@@TheWendybird123 Don't be tempted by "secret" knowledge, its simply a lie to get you away from the truth of the Gospel. That is exactly what the serpent told Eve. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.: John 14:6. Every other mythology is a by product of gen 6 and Enoch. Those were the false gods everyone was worshipping all over the globe with comparable traits and a macro origin story.
She is a truly brilliant, fascinating professor. I once wrote her a letter praising one of her books and she wrote me back.
Me too
@@jeremymettler2785 you assume christians see Everything and Understand Everything. It's not what they say. It's taken on a point by point basis
Thank you so much for bringing the revelation of the mystery of the Kingdom to light. I would love that you travel to Uganda and five this conference as well.
God bless you
Bhagavad Gita
Chapter 10, Verse 8
"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts"
Very interesting. This is an incredibly insightful talk and a strong argument for the power and wisdom of a great historical figure. Sometimes one must read between the lines.
One more thing. As one who was schooled by a great Yogic teacher, Jesus would be considered an Avatar. But in first century Palestine there were no reference points for someone like him. Except for the greatest Hebrew prophets, He was not the Jewish Messiah not was he the world's Messiah for there is no such thing, but the schism of the Jews not accepting him as such muddied the waters badly.
The religion that arose, sadly, was a terrible distortion weird blend of some of his public teachings and Hellenized Paganism. It has taken 2000 years to get it right. 300 years ago we all have been killed. for having beliefs like this.
I'm not sure why a man who taught only Torah observance would be an avatar in hinduism? The Torah means nothing to hindus.
Christ, Krishna. Potatoes, Potartoes, my man.
@@Shane-hp2mv That's what Ktishna said in the Gita. What is interesting is Krishna speaks AS what Jesus called "the Father", not as anointed messenger.
I am just reading: Adam, Eve and the snake….by her and am impressed! Brilliant writer, I am glad I finally discovered her and also this channel, where I can listen to this great researcher, born the same year like me.
why does it matter what year she was born in?
After 8 decades of life to still be a teacher through writing, or a learner through reading of such hefty scholarship is simply wonderful. Happy Birthday to both in 2023 🍰👏📚💡
It’s a process of self-realisation to find the kingdom of God. No one can teach it. It’s always there within and without. You have to experience it.
Self realisation?! Have you not read the Scriptures? The kingdom of heaven is a body of believers, a community; there's no 'self' in it. God is God and we are not. Please forgive my sharpness, but there is no salvation for a wretched human soul in self realisation. God bless you.
@@aletheuo475 God wants us to live with him, not separated from him. Until one realizes that this, indeed, is one's deepest fulfillment of self -> self realization, there is no hope of refusing any mortal sin. The wish to be near god is what makes us whole and free. And through Jesus we know we can attain this, because god's presence near us will not harm us anymore. We are free from the kind of sin that separates us from god, Jesus died for us. What we have to do now is to live according to Jesus' example. In the kingdom of god, that is within us and around us, if we choose.
@@stephanieiv1163 Yeah fine. I agree that the process of sanctification allows the believer to become more truly himself. My dispute is with the self-centredness that so many preachers use to make their messages more popular. I find that so many people use mystical New Age type language with a focus on self-fulfilment and growth because the real gospel sounds too old fashioned or offensive. 'No one can teach it. It's always there within and without'. This is mysticism. Although the gospel indeed must be experienced personally, it can be taught.
@@aletheuo475 There is a kosmos of difference between small 's' self and capital 'S' self.
St Paul spake about the Self when he said "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" or " “put away the old self of your former way of life, corrupted through deceitful desires, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new self, created in God’s way in righteousness and holiness of truth.”
That is the realization of Self. It has nothing to do with small/false/separate self or selfishness/egocentricity.
Many saints would echo this.
My faith says that we are born basically good with wisdom and compassion.
It's been years since I first delved into The New Testament especially. Since that time I've maintained a relationship with the God of my understanding and eventually learning that I must be in the proper frame of mind to think about how to interpret and learn from that God.
I have found and have developed an understanding of a peaceful mind. This is the same peaceful mind that Buddha speaks of as Nirvana.
Since It is only when my mind is at peace that I'm able to have a sense of communication with God. Over time I have learned that through/within a peaceful mind, all things are possible. In fact, from peace, or while at peace I find the source of a creative mind and answers to life's questions and/or the source of all creation personally and as such extending out into the world.
Peace is the source or beginning of creation.
Finally, as Professor Pagels makes multiple references I can very neatly substitute "Peace" in place of every attempted description of the holy spirit, heaven, relationship with God and so on. In all of the New Testament and now these new secret books we are attempting to define an important relationship with Peace. The search, teachings, metaphors, references and description are all attempts to define Peace.
In fact, if ever one were able to follow every law of the Old Testiment - that man would know Peace and live in Peace.
There was only one to fulfill every law of the old testiment. Next, Jesus Christ showed us all how to live in Peace. Throughout the New Testament Peace is referenced many times. The Holy Instant is Peace. The eternal moment is Peace. I live for these Peaceful moments in everything i do.
Post script: For many centuries the Bible has been all about teaching how to live a Peaceful existance.
Unfortunately there are those who seek to confuse Peace.
When the idea that the divinity is within you comes from experiencing it spiritually, it is liberating. When it is just an idea believed in but not experienced, it becomes dangerous.
When a person thinks he is divine then the world around him is in trouble. 2 examples, Jim Jones and David Koresh.
YES
@@bcalvert321 They thought they were exclusively divine. WE ALL ARE
@@Thesaurcery4U2C No we are not divine. Divine is only for God. We are saints though.
@@bcalvert321 Just the image of the divine?
I don’t feel that you become God when you have moved from outside to inside spiritually but that you gain a responsibility, and a confidence and a completeness being one with that spirit and not all powerful as far as others but of one with that father spirit thru the knowledge from study of the teachings ......there is a comfort with the knowing.... an incite.....a true light that can shine, if you will, for others to follow, to gather that comfort, that confidence that God surrounds, protects and guides you.....which is how I feel in my relationship with God Father, God Son, God Spirit
Thank you, Dr Pagels for this further enLIGHTening dissertation to add to my life study.... I am 80 yrs young, but old in my wisdom I believe...
BTW my name is Gale Pagels Monterio ☺️
Absolutely my feeling. I'm so happy to find others with the same vision.
I enjoy the words of Manly Hall - we are the atoms that make us up just as we are among the atoms that make up God.
If all was created out of nothing but pure energy, there's no way to not be directly connected to God /all. I believe everything we can imagine and see is God. God speaks to us through every single event around us. When we listen to this voice/nature and follow or flow with its direction, we prosper.
And my name is Giovanni Giorgio, but everyone calls me Giorgio.
So informative! And so passionate! Wonderful! 🙏
What an Incredible Woman, wow... Elaine Pagels, thank you SO MUCH for your work❤ We love you ❤
I've known it for awhile now ,
We Are One !
Inexplicable, mysterious ,almost beyond comprehension, but there it is .
We are fractals of the source.
We are the Universe manifest figuring itself out.
Consciousness is fundamental. Evolution is is how it is reducing its entropy.
We are one what?
@@robinharwood5044 Part of all that is . Indevisable from the whole .
We are part of everything and everything is a part of us .
It is , and we are !
Hope that clears it up .
LMAO
@@marvymarier8988 Wrong. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit created everything. We are not a part of nature, nature is not God.
We are WON. "By my OWN, I have WON, here and NOW".
I have been fascinated with Elaine Pagel’s books for a very long time. She is my favorite writer about early Christianity. She knows how to make the subject dynamic and understandable.
Just wanted to thank you for posting these wonderful talks and discussions. Dr. Pagels presentations were remarkable, and the panelists and questioners were surprisingly trenchant and thoughtful in their responses. Watching these videos was not only thought-provoking, but it also lifted my spirits!
I believe this is one of Dr. Pagels' best talks -- she nails it! She was able to put it into words very well what the Gospel of Thomas and other secret (hidden) gospels are pointing to. We are divine children of God, we are the primordial light before the world/universe existed. We are the I AM by extension, images of God, that is beings of light, the shining ones, the elohim. We came from the light and we go back to the light. There is no death. Recognizing this Truth about oneself causes a shift in perception and one is suddenly in the Kingdom. Before this shift, one is still in a dualistic, black-white, good-evil way of perceiving the world and God is somehow out there, apart from us and we are miniscule powerless creatures of flesh. But after the shift, one experiences unity consciousness. There is no separation, we are all connected, always part of the All, part of God - you can never be lost - or saved for that matter. Salvation is knowing from deep within. It sounds like foolishness or blasphemy if one's perception hasn't yet shifted. And I'm pretty sure these are the esoteric "meat teachings" of which Paul spoke, and which the Church no longer teaches. So many congregants are left hungry for more, bored of the "milk teachings" and remain locked out of the Kingdom. The religious leaders withhold the Keys (or are ignorant themselves) in order to maintain power over the masses. Knowledge of Self is freeing.
Thank you very much .
Damn she broke this down like a boss. Amazing
What do you expect?
She got a lot of it wrong.
@@bcalvert321 Oh yes, you are the expert on the Gnostic Gospels. NOT!
Got half way through so far and to my ... Understanding, 🌸, nicely interpreted ✨🌟✨🌸
Just love her. Such understanding
Jesus's teaching mainly stresses on love and peace that require sincere services and sacrifice for one another.
But the secret teachings also emphasize what is called realization, true knowledge of God.
Very erudite. And so well explained. Namaskars to Professor Pagels.
I wish I could sit on the floor at her feet and listen to her speak for a week. I have always felt as if the teachings of the church were not complete and at times, somewhat inaccurate. Many of the unspoken truths I have felt all my life (now 60 years old) were spoken here in this video by Dr. Pagels Other truths I have always felf were spoken By Dr. Michael Heiser and by Dr Stephen Meyer.
It is difficult for me to read due to blindness, so I find these video discussions very helpful. Thank you, thank you and thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell are also great 20th century interpreters of these teachings.
I give thanks for your work ❤
Thank you for this video. 😊
Its very profound.... Kingdom is not outside & is not in matter! Beginning before beginning is the I AM that I AM!
Scholarship can only take you so far. Spirituality is beyond scholarship. The esoteric teachings of sufi, Rumi, kabir, Miester Eckhart, the Rishi & Masters of the East the Hindus & Buddhist can begin the understanding of the mustard seed & its Here & Now in ourselves. Buddhas last sermon 'Be the Light to yourself' or Be your own Light.
Jesus is the only TRUE Light!!!
@@kennyhalperin5302 And it is THAT narrow-minded (and brainwashed) Idealolgy that is destroying Humanity, and by consequence, the Planet. Read & Learn & Open Your Mind: EVERY culture 'believes' that they have the only true religion; Christianity (which Christ never created--he was a Jew all his life) is not original in this manner.
This is one of my favorite videos. It explains a lot of what I'm going through. There is a spot where she said some scholars believe that Jesus could never read or write, but I think he can at least read Because you read from the Scrolls in the synagogue announcing the beginning of his ministry
Who the hell you think you are . A bunch of fools speaking saying nothing impressing others pretend to understand guess you know deceiving self exactly void in know unknown exactly deceiving even self unknown to even self refuse to question any play educated guesser pretenders of understanding question none talk out arrogant jackass unknown to even self returned to one true and just known self reborn two became one in one whole in one whole in one returned to the father walked the golden Path reborn 3 in one whole in one whole in one known self reborn walked threw door reborn 3 is the golden age of one whole in one known to the father healed in the Holy Spirit in one whole in one perfect known self reborn two became one the day you one you became two divided split a piece of wood and I AM there . If make two into one heal in the Holy Spirit in one self one against two two against three three against two two against three . Three in one walk threw door reborn on the golden Path to the father 369 returned to beginings without ends in one whole in one whole in one whole in one many and five stand as one known before he was born undeniably proclaimed three times over before he was born three times three times over out womb and in man born the living Son of Man won't taste death . And five stand as one known to the ALL seen self as the forth in heaven and five stand as one . Who the hell you pretending to what the hell you call it best be done playing prophets sure as hell false prophets if keep it up question none pretend to understand guess you know deceiving self exactly unknown j
Hell no
I don't think any of the prophets could read or write but they all could "recite."
@@GnosticCushite is no debate who said pretend to understand guess you know question none false prophets at the end of the age question none pretend to figure it out is no game
@@GnosticCushite none even know what trust in God we trust in God means can't even understand we the people let alone play true and just known ears both ears hear married the father eyes see known to the true virgin mother creator understanding of what see and hear seen self as the forth in heaven and five stand as one
@@GnosticCushite popes game over real soon
I got the Dikaios down δικαιος, but I can't find this term she says that sounds like Angolos. Any Greek scholars out there who can help me out? 27:11
Thank you!
Sweet woman, very smart, excellent writer and long-suffering in her personal life. As a comic aside, Elaine can definitely walk and talk at the same time. Peripatetic scholar par excellence!!
I'll bet she could chew gum as well and still be great!
Yep, the cameraman had his work cut out for him. Great talk and indeed an excellent scholar and writer.
Why is she suffering in her personal life?
@@moonlighth4515 Elaine suffered the tragic loss of her husband in a climbing accident and the death of an infant son through genetic and fatal disease . She went from heaven to hell. Does one ever stop suffering from such sorrow. Mrs Pagels is a person of great courage
@@williampowhida572 yes yes yes the “kingdom of heaven” is not all comfortable sweetness , but it is absolutely REAL right here , right now .
The relationship between Platonism and Christianity is so amazing to me. Know thyself.
Plato never existed. He was written through like Jesus was too. He never existed either.
Very nice interpretation. These gnostic gospels are quite simillar to vaishnava filosofy, special to 14-15th century!
Why aren’t the books included? What are secular leaders or other historians reasons for not including/believing the text?
I find the possibility that he taught publicly one way and privately another a very exciting and sense making thought. I have, just before watching this point, had an interesting affirmation through an ad that played - when people want to influence or teach they use visual aids because it helps to get their point across. Ties in with why Jesus always used parables and miracles when dealing with wider audiences. I hear so much of Lao Tzu and Buddha in the Gospel of Thomas. One has to be somewhere into inner exploration before these teachings have any meaningful substance for the listener, and the words become palpable. This talk is fascinating - we learn nothing when to do, see and hear it is easy. Nietzsche was a mystic who came to 'kill Orthodoxy', leaving the room empty for us to discover the Divine within us all. I understand so deeply my love of this man and the suffering that produced his great guidance away from everything we the people believed, incorrectly, to be true.
I got a lot out of this. I'm definitely going to need to listen again.
Wonderful, thank you.
❤😮😊 24:30 24:30 😅😅 oo 24:36 yo😅😅ooo😅ioi😊o😅😅😅ii😊😊😊😊😅😊i😅😅😊 25:58 😅😊😅😅io😊😊😅😊😊😊k😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅o😊ooooooooo😊oo😊o😊😊😅oooooi😅😅😅😅😅😅😊😊ooooooo😊oo😊😅oo😊oo😊o😅😊😊😊😊oooooooiooooooo😅😅ooooooooo😅😅😊😅😅😊😅😅😅😅😅o😅😊😅i😅😅😅😅😊😊😅😅😅😅😊😊😊😅😊😅😅😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊o😊😅😅😊o😊o😊oo😅😊i😊😊😅ooooooioioioo😅😊ooooooooooooouo
Thank you for sharing
As an atheist, my favorite gospel. No wonder early Christian Church rejected it as heretical. Makes too much sense. Too much self reflection, too many questions. Contrary to Paul's gospel of obedient blind faith.
Born again loons are out of their minds watching this. Read the comments.
Great intellectual teaching! Just add a contemplative practice and in a few years of practice you will really understand these secret teaching!!
That implies that you understand the secret teachings..😂
@@unbroken1010 Awareness
@@marvymarier8988 doesn't matter I still don't think the lady knows what she's talking about
@@unbroken1010 exactly what is it you disagree with ?
People misunderstand Christ's message completely .
Love God , and love your neighbor as yourself .
Love your enemies too . To experience God , not to worship the messenger .
Or burn witches .
To give to the poor . To clothe the naked etc. I've met very few Christians. Wisdom is more than reciting bible quotes , or badgering people .
With love alone we can understand Christ's message .
No man is righteous, who has anger in his heart .
Do you have anger in your heart ?
@@marvymarier8988 I have a simple problem with the masses of repenters and doomsayers demanding that there is one path to salvation. I have a huge problem with people I can't seem to function around the idea of a historical Christ vs a mythical Christ. And I will always have a problem with anybody trying to instill a message we are going to hell because you're not saved.
Hi, Camera Person
we can't see the artwork pr printed text
As The Speaker Intended
if you keep panning around
we do not need to stare at a speaker; our ears work
(or else we will use automated subtitles)
Perhaps next time you can setup a camera that is adjusted to make the slides nicely visible. Then with some editing in post to nicely intercut them during the whole lecture.
Great stuff!
The time has came and passed everytime you walk past a homeless person a drug addict and snuff up your nose. You missed it because class separation has made you blind
And yet no one reading this has sold thier possessions etc
@@christopherjordan9707 Hahahahahahaha!!!!! That was a teaching for the few, the rich, the selfish. He certainly didn't give everyone the same instructions. I have given away quite a bit, but never all, And I have always been poor to begin with, so it wouldn't have been that hard. But still, I didn't.
@@fancynancylucille some may call you lukewarm
L.p... p
What a treat! I have read Dr. Pagels' books and very much enjoy this video lecture! Thank you!
“next whatt you need to know is who you are...” and also, who not to believe. The original deception was by the Serpent, whose legacy was picked up by religious legalists throughout history... including the religious authorities who confronted Jesus...to the Catholic Church and its controlling cabal...to Protestant preachings about scriptural infallibility. All the same. Our spiritual integrity must be maintained in the face of the eternal deceptive control by religion itself. I’ve written a book about this.
@@ChristopherCudworth "Protestant preaching's about scriptural infallibility." If the Bible is the inspired word of God then it is infallible. Saying otherwise is exactly what the serpent wants us to believe. The bible is the objective standard in which you judge and rebuke false doctrine. Has nothing to do with religion, but objective truth.
@@jsharp9735 its infallibility is no longer the issue. We know the originals do not exist. We know mistakes and errors were made. We know that false or selective interpretations corrupt its meaning. We know that Christianity as an institution has added or invented layers of belief (purgatory and hell itself…) as means to control the masses. And the existence of multiple translations makes the notion of infallibility a delicate farce. Your basic premise is popular but wrong.
Superb scholar.
My speakers are maxed but can hardly hear. I think I'll have to pass this lecture up till I get some external speakers.
Thank You so much for sharing this Information. I read both the Gospel Of Mary Magdalene and the Secret book of Thomas and I beleave They are true. When I read the book of Thomas I understood everything. Our Savior is Inside us. We Don't need any Religion or any human being to find our Lord. We are not from this World. We are just an Experimente. We are here to find the Light.
Yes, I came to this understanding from the 4 Gospels and the writings of Paul. The gnostic gospels confirm and expand this truth.
Then why did Jesus say you must be born again?!
@@kennyhalperin5302 The correct translation is ‘born from above’. This signifies spiritual, not worldly, understanding
According to what I have found in my own study, Paul bears responsibility for producing what we have today. Personal revelation directly "from Jesus" combined with rational from invoking a corrupted Septuigent instead of commonly accepted Judaic scripture, made it possible for Paul to develope his own take on what Christianity was and wasn't.
I live by a code of ethics inspired by the commandments and my interpretation of Christ as a positive role model born before his time and needed much now.
_great_ lecture very explanatory
I keep on seeking!
Catholicism is about legalism.
Gnosis is about the god within.
@Darren
Even Lucifer/Satan is partly good.
His light is from the invisible Spirit, his darkness came through his pride and rebellion.
@Darren
Saying of the Messiah 30 from the gospel of Thomas found at Oxyrhynchus Egypt.
Oldest version.
"Where there are three they are without God.
Where there is one I say I am there with you.
Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."
I am Catholic and l don't find it legalistic. Pope Benedict XVI says that Christian faith is first and foremost an encounter with the person of Jesus. Canon Law is simply a way of ensuring justice and equity within the Church thereby, to a greater or less degree, allowing people to grow personally in faith and also in Communion with Christ and each other in the (to use St Paul's language) Body of Christ.
... and about non omnipotent God (s).
Argumentation?
Can you imagine being the camera person ?
Yeah for an older person she's doing a lot of moving around
Cross eyed.
11 minutes later and I get your comment.....geeeez
Hmmmm. Had he zoomed out.....
😂😂😂😂
Exactly! "What can they read in church.Just make it simple for them"
It's not simple for me now at 70. I'm grateful for childhood foundation. Give milk to babies until they are grown up for the meat. I love God. I am grateful that God gives us teachers like Eileen Pagel. Grateful. Jesus lives. God is a big deal.
First time i listened Mrs Pagels,may be the kingdom details comes from Fikino Poimandres manuscript and can be the exact words of Trismegistus,very nicely done conference looks like i have to watch all her works and read❤
I am not Christian, By Lambdin's Thomas Gospel I knew that Gospel is not different from the sudden enlightening teachings of Buddha's. So this one have read John's Gospel. All stories of John's Gospel are just the same teachings. So this one happily recommend world Christians would voluntalily regain the One and Same Spritual Body of their own eternal Life. Thanks every people. Forever be happy, Pagels.
Mani
The gospel of Thomas is nothing like the Gospel of John. It is not even close. You said Thomas was like Buddhism. Might be but the Gospel of John is about love and that love comes from Jesus and the cross.
@@bcalvert321 When people see, meet and be the I Self in their body, then they digest John's.
There people shall be with Jesus'. In the beginning there was the word. They are that they are.
@@iallalli5223 There is no I self in any body. It is the Holy Spirit of God.
@@bcalvert321 When you are the Holy Spirit, then you awake the real Love, which is eternal One, Same. That is real I of Ben Calvert. As people are in their own dream, one also is in his own dream. When one dive into the sea's bottom, as Jonah had done. Then the one shall awake his Holy Spirit, which is eating Jesus', digesting John's and Thomas'. Have nice day.
Light = pure Consciousness = I AM
And the Word (I AM) was with God, and the Word was God.
Logos/Yeshua
God is rest and Yeshua movement.
Is that coming from a King James Bible
@@unbroken1010 Gods Word is written in our Heart. God is a *living* God.
@@Sethan777 so is nature so are animals go vegetarian
@@unbroken1010 I am! 👍👍👍🕊🐑❣
@@Sethan777 awesome
I think s key to the teachings in Thomas as well as Yeshua's teachings at all levels is when he reveals as if it's something kept secret that we are all gods. Perhaps we are within us capable of being gods if we understand through the teaching we are capable of being gods. It is when we know this of ourselves that will be in awe and then amazed. And it is as gods we begin to expand heaven within us.
The Kingdom of God is not Meat and Drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the HolyGhost!
Even Messiah spoke(references) of other books like Enoch, Jesher & Jubilee. If he can speak about it then. Then we can read it
Who in the world tells you what you can or can't read one person tells you you can't read something and send me that book is deems not part of the Canon. That is some strange back sided thinking
Yes i think many people gloss over the fact that the bible mentions other texts outside of what made it into the official canon.
The problem is nobody knows if the books like the book of Enoch that are sold today are the original story referenced by the bible or written by people who saw the reference and just wrote a whole new book based off their imagination of what they thought may be in it
you need to see with spiritual eyes and ears this can only be done with the holy sprit being in your heart to have this happen you must learn to never lie about anything this how to begin to be rightous enough for the hol;y spirit to enter this will guide you through your trials into when you enter into a light that is heaven stretched over earth that men just dont see why do none of these so called teachers understand and why listen to someone that cant find it themselfs
@@MOTIVATIONBYDAR Most of the books were not a part of the OT. They were texts that were used sometimes to add to Jewish history but never considered to be influenced by God. They were never in any Holy book.
@Darren Oh, so now that you really "know" you're no longer a "gnostic", but when you didn't you were. WAKE UP.
Jesus is an enigma wrapped in a mystery! Jesus is the highest Consciousness embodied in a person... never was a physical person!!!
Nothing you just said makes any sense
@@Peter-ci1zw And it never will, until The Invisible Spirit of God, which is the highest Divine Consciousness reveal this to YOU! An intelligent person will never insult me, and you being a Fool Can't!!!
@@rosannag.burroughs4563 Word salad
@@Peter-ci1zw Do you know what the word Enigma means???
Exactly true, I am fully convinced.
This is an excellent lecture. I don't see much that is gnostic about this, nothing that contradicts the 4 gospels which by themselves leave us with more questions than answers.
Is it the the Light itself that came into being or that our awareness of it comes into being, to becoming at one with it. How can something come into being that was always there, if not through our awareness of it? The question here is one of awareness.
Someone should do something about this great women in spanish , there’s a lot of gnostic peole that would appreciate to know about elaine pagels work
@J. C. yeah or at least explain to them but there's plenty of translator apps now a days. Thankfully nobody feels that way about Spanish soap operas ..😂 and I thought the American American ones for trash
They can learn English
Yeshua repeats the idea in this "gospel" that you don't patch old clothes with a new patch or put old wine in new wineskins. He also reprimands the disciples for quoting the prophets to establish who he is and says that his words should stand on their own. After two thousand years of intolerance and misrepresentation of Yeshua perhaps it is time to take him at his word and put what he is saying against the lessons of history and the philosophers and sages whose wisdom and clear-thinking has stood the passage of time and enlightened us. We are starting with a clean sheet in evaluating Yeshua.
Yeshua never existed. Find one original manuscript within 70 years of Jesus death that has that name. Not paleographry dated either. Many are Egyotian paparyus from the date with writings from a later period. He would have spoken Aramaic and not Coine greek
@@AdonaiZedek I'm of the opinion Yeshu/Yeshua existed but Paul of Tarsus and the Canonical Gospel writers made him into a different person entirely, one who never existed.
"Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy."
Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Grace is getting what you don’t deserve. There’s a difference
And if that were true, we would have world peace because everyone has been given mercy. Saved by grace, not by mercy.
Great teacher
Elaine does an AMAZING job of walking on tiptoes through the mine fields of belief. Only a woman could do this !!! BELIEF = what makes you good makes you bad. Elaine has done her homework and it shows. A Truly Honest Person who only teaches what the student can handle. Curiosity is the only requirement to knowledge.
Glad you enjoyed it. Elaine is fantastic!
smroog Amen
@@camillethepanther1760 Thank you. It only took about 74 years for me to appreciate a TRUE TEACHER. We are so lucky to have people like Elaine. And TH-cam to spread the knowledge and wisdom !!!! I am a Very Lucky Man !!!!
smroog i am a theologian and I am astonished by these secrets teachings, I am almost about to quit this organize religion to only teach the secret teachings of Christ, especially the Gospel of THOMAS, my colleagues have no clue, even when I bring this subject they think I am crazy, because it is not the real “norm” I have read this gospel over a 100 times and every day I am close to abandon the organized religion
@@camillethepanther1760 "For, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you " Luke 17-21 KJV
"That which is hateful to you, do not to your fellow. That is the whole of the Torah. The rest is commentary. Now go and learn." Hillel, 1st century Jewish Scholar , Babylonian Talmud.
"There is Truth in Every Religion" Joseph Campbell, "The Power of Myth"
I'm getting seasick... stop walking Elaine!!!
When she was a TA probably told by her supervising professor..."now Elaine, to keep them engaged you've got to keep moving, just keep moving and their eyes will be on you"...
Just awful. I had to listen to the audio only.
Amen! Had to scroll the video out of my view and like Comine", just listened to he audio.
Always a lovely lecturer. Interesting hearing early/maybe q source dating for Thomas when John just screams its a refutation or orthodox gnostic/mystic counter work. (Or both very valid and doubting thomas line added later by a scribe)
This was great.
Perhaps because gender is “the body” not the soul, Jesus was saying if you come to God as your spiritual self, you should come as one integrated soul, not as the earthly man or woman.
¨Yep, souls dont have colors or genitalia.
We are children of the light, the Living father, the Kingdom of heaven, the beginning. We are movement and rest, like the father
NO children of Light although we may have light
No Living Father
No Kingdom of Heaven Either
There is no movement and the rest either
@@AdonaiZedek Fkn eck You are confused 🤪
@@MultiBurger1 explain with proof
sorry , we move and rest , our creator does not , is what it says
Let us All Shine E' Lum' en-ed Essence. To forever Light the way.
Elaine got all of her steps in for this day
video starts at 6:40 after long introduction
The video starts at 0:00. The lecture starts at 7:40.
Thanks
This makes so much sense to me..now that am more spiritual.. I believe in the mystical Jesus these days
Mystical jesus is the christ in every religion like Krishna,buddha,Zoeraster ,mohammed etc. Jesus Christ the Son of God , the Lord and Saviour is only in Bible.
The mystical Jesus. I like the term. There's good life stories in the Bible sweetheart and all writings but please don't take them as fact or historical information.
Great 👍
Movement and rest, as like the Tao te Ching. I've listened to Elaine Pagels before and enjoy her scope of study. Aslso Joseph Campbell.
The Devine energy of the universe? Sounds like Ancient Sanatana Dharma or Buddhism
I am surprised, very, she does not mention non-duality...
She dances around the ideas. he doesnt want to give herself away. She knows he whole bible is fabricated. She is probably of the Rose Cross or something similar
No Distance
By Theophane the Monk
I asked each of the monks I met this question: “What great blunder have you made?”
One answered, “There was a stone in my room, and I did not love it.”
Another said, “They called me a Christian, but I did not become Christ.”
I asked the first, “What do you mean? I don’t understand. You didn’t love that stone....”
“I just didn’t love it. I was so close to redeeming the whole world, but I looked down on that stone.”
I asked the second, “You did not become Christ? Is one supposed to become Christ?”
“I kept putting distance between myself and him---by seeking, by praying, by reading. I kept deploring the distance, but I never realized that I was creating it.”
“But,” I insisted, “is one supposed to become Christ?”
His answer: “No distance.”
From: Tales of the Magic Monastery-Theophane the Monk
That was incredibly interesting