Hi PB60 i have the TB valve clearances to check this week and wondered if it was feasible to remove the shims by depressing the valves and using a magnetic to retrieve the shim. A number of motorcycles used to have a U shaped tool to push down on the valve to allow sufficient clearance to get the shim out. Would make the job so much easier. Cheers John
HI John, when they introduced the Thunderbird in it's triple format, there was a service tool that used to clamp to the head which had legs that bolted in place once the cam follower was depressed. This held the cam follower down so that when the cam was rotated 180deg the shim could be removed as you suggest.I was rather hoping that when I started this work I could devise a similar method but there weren't any suitable threaded holes for fixing and was reluctant to use the holes provided for bolting the cam cover down...........just in case.I don't think there is really sufficient space to get a lever type tool in because of the frame tubes etc. It's actually quite difficult to get to some of the cam / shims to check for clearance. Additionally I'd be a little concerned about levering against the cams just in case I tweeked one a little.Let me know how you get on and thanks for watching!PB
Any chance you could let me know what direction the cam tensioner goes into the block? I assumed the oil pressure supply hole in the tensioner went to the bottom, matching the oil service hole in the block, but the manuals all seem to show that facing up? I didn't pay close enough attention when I broke it down...
Hi, I've just been out and checked mine. There is a small arrow cast into the front cover of the tensioner assembly which points upwards, hopefully this will align the hole correctly with the oil supply hole in the cylinder block.Hope that helps!
I'm planning out the big job- I'm wondering about the inspection of the camshafts- I assume you have a look for any major signs of wear- but how necessary is it to go through in fine detail the inspection process in the Triumph Service manual (page 3.16 in the usual manual) as there are a lot of steps including the use of Plastiguage to check the distance between the camshaft journal and the camshaft ladder- also says check the camshaft chain- to do that properly requires removal- I'm thinking overkill unless it is a complete engine rebuild- what's your thoughts? and yes I hold you responsible for nothing I choose to do :-)
Hello mate,I see this as mileage dependant really, unless its got a bad service history with infrequent oil changes and the use of poor quality oil. I obviously gave my cams a visual but at 13k I wouldn't have expected anything too serious. In all honesty if I thought I was approaching the wear limit on cam journal / ladders I'd be inclined to think about moving on and getting rid. From what I recall and understand these are non serviceable so if you do have cam journals that are out of spec it's a new head.What's your mileage? Is it noisy on the top end? Are there obvious signs of wear? Do you think you have a problem?I only do about 2.5 to 3k a year on the Thunderbird but always change the oil and filter annually and wouldn't consider anything other than fully synthetic.Hope that helps some!
It's got a service history from 13k and I've done the other service jobs till 22k. I'm not convinced it did it's 13k valve clearance but I needed to improve my skills before i took on the valve job, which I have. The bike is a bit noisy but i have nothing to compare it to- as far as i know they are somewhat noisy engines. Sounds like i can sensibly not go the whole 9 yards with inspecting it all, but if i see or hear a clear problem i should investigate. So yes very helpful. But i do wonder, at some point it has to wear out surely and then what? I want to keep riding until they take it out of my geriatric hands, which is a long way away. Probably I'd have to go to the engineering shop to get it machined again- or replace with a scifi future electric/nuclear/hydro engine
It states somewhere that the head is a non serviceable item. A point which I find somewhat amazing given that it's such a major component with quite a lot going on in it. The cam bearings are machined straight in the head which is of course aluminium hence the need for regular oil changes and good quality oil.If it gets to the point where it has worn out then I'd suggest your in for a whole lot of expense.
Hello mate, I hope this gets to you. I was trying to respond to your other question re checking of the valve timing but Mr TH-cam stuck a text box over the question so when I was trying to delete that I inadvertently deleted your message. Why can't they just leave things alone??Anyhow I've been thinking.......I think the important thing here is to make sure that the timing marks on the cams correspond with the marks on the ladder before you insert the crank locking tool first time round. If you do this and match things up on the rebuild it can't be out as long as you get your cam chain on right and ensure the back run is tight.It's a while since I did it and I do remember seeking council at my local Triumph dealer and I'm sure I'm right in saying that even the technician there said something about the book not being quite right. For me this was the most nerve racking part of the job and certainly not to be treat lightly. As I think I said in the video when you're doing this you've got so many things going on and the window of opportunity is so small. If you miss the hole you have to go all the way round again. If I do, do this again I'll make a tool up so that I can rotate the engine directly by the crank and not turn it through the gearbox. That way you'd definitely have more control.A bit long winded but I hope that helps.Best regardsPB
that makes sense. I think when i strip it down, before I remove the camshaft ladder I'll have to move the engine around and see how many rotations it takes for the marks to line up- 4 or 8. If i know what it is doing before i take it apart that might help. I'm sure i will document my experiences on my website(diythunderbird.weebly.com) , but i've got a few of the triumph tools to get before i start.
wondering If I may chat with you a bit about decompressor ...triumph keeps replacing cylinders and sleeves stating the cylinders are moving in the block had mine changed twice now and 2 decompressors as well after 500-1000 miles the "CLACK" comes back and the CLACK sounds EXACTLY like the decompressor opening and closing while throttle is "feathered" oddfellow 105 at g mail id appreciate it
I've come across a problem. I've gotten to the point that everything was lined up, pin was fully fully in the inner hole and then i removed the chain tension. The outlet cam is free but the inlet cam still has a slight pressure on it. I read in another forum that you can use a spanner somehow to move the cam into a better position (which you need to do so that there is no pressure on it when you release the cam ladder). How did you move the cam ladder- or didn't you need to? Did you need to move it into position on reassembly or did you get it in position and tighten the cam ladder down to secure it?
Hello mate!you've had me scratching my head on this, it's nearly two years since I did this and I'm struggling to remember the full detail. I've just checked my notes and looked at the manual. Firstly - on each cam there is a hex cast into the cam, left hand side near the sprocket flange so that you can get a spanner on it. At the back of my mind I think it is something like 21mm but I might be completely wrong on that.You can use that once you've released the cam chain tension to rotate the cam so that it's 'off load' before releasing the ladder bolts. Lift the cam chain off the sprocket first. Again if memory serves me right it will snap round once you get to a certain point, as the valve springs overcome the cam profile. Secondly - when rebuilding set the inlet cam timing (valve timing) first. Can't remember whether I needed the spanner to rotate the cam into the right position on this one or not. The cam chain needs to be tight on the back run, all the slack should be at the front of the engine. Now set the exhaust cam timing (valve timing) by lifting the chain off the exhaust cam sprocket but holding tight so as not to move the inlet cam which you have just set. Use the spanner to align the timing marks on the exhaust cam sprocket and when they line up with the sprocket and the ladder put the chain back on the sprocket. I believe then that the cam will be under tension from the valve springs and will in turn keep the chain taught along the back run and between sprockets.Once you've done that insert the cam chain tensioner and thump the cam chain in the middle of the run between the two cam sprockets. This will release the locking mechanism on the tensioner and allow it to take up the slack on the front run.If you've got the Triumph service manual this covered on page 3.9.Hope that helps! Let me know how you get on!
If you check out Part 5 in the series I go through the tooling used towards the end of video. The diameters are actually 6 and 10. Lengths I believe we're 42. Hope that helps. Best regards PB
Hi Martin, I've been running Harleys since 17, so am a bit rusty on the workings of the Thunderbird. Camshaft timing for me is always the worst part. You need a good manual and follow the process laid out in that. From memory it's about getting the crank locked in the right place and the timing marks on the camshafts aligned in the right place and then releasing the cam chain tensioner. You need a special tool for locking the crankshaft, which is a bugger to get in, if I remember rightly. If you're in any doubt, take it to a dealer. Sorry, probably not much help!! Regards PB
@@PB-yt7bf Thanks alot for your reply, last days I found out some more- I knew about the locking pin, but where to put it in? Then I rotated by crank and I found out it´s probably in some "special" ratio in relation crakshaft-middle gear. So after several turns I found out the hole open, not blocked by connection rod or crank weight. So I think now it´s pretty clear to me, I´m just wondering why it is so complicated and to be sincere I´m also in doubt if someone can to construct even more complicated system. Mostly because of need to remove stator - so for the first to remove rotor by puller. Anyway, my friend found out the locking pin measurements somewhere, and it´s d 6mm in 42 mm lenght, then d10mm also in 42 mm lenght, rest about 150mm in d 14mm, but I think diameter and lenght in the last case is not important, because this part is just a handle. Thank you for the advice. Martin
@@bezpopisu Hi Martin, I think in one of the videos in that series that I did, I listed all the tools I'd made with the dimensions. Be real careful with that locking pin, it's very easy to bend the tip because the end diameter is so ridiculously small. I didn't consider hardening it when I made it due to the amount of use it would get, I'm also not sure whether hardening, would have made it brittle and prone to snap rather than bend. I agree with your thoughts on complexity, by comparison, working on a Harley is far simpler!! Good luck. Regards PB
@@PB-yt7bf I see - thank you very much for the dimensions of the locking pin. I absolutely agree with your opinion regarding heat treatment, I will use it also very rarely. I was carefull while putting the pin into the wheel. Thank you for your reply. Martin
Hi PB60 i have the TB valve clearances to check this week and wondered if it was feasible to remove the shims by depressing the valves and using a magnetic to retrieve the shim. A number of motorcycles used to have a U shaped tool to push down on the valve to allow sufficient clearance to get the shim out. Would make the job so much easier. Cheers John
HI John, when they introduced the Thunderbird in it's triple format, there was a service tool that used to clamp to the head which had legs that bolted in place once the cam follower was depressed. This held the cam follower down so that when the cam was rotated 180deg the shim could be removed as you suggest.I was rather hoping that when I started this work I could devise a similar method but there weren't any suitable threaded holes for fixing and was reluctant to use the holes provided for bolting the cam cover down...........just in case.I don't think there is really sufficient space to get a lever type tool in because of the frame tubes etc. It's actually quite difficult to get to some of the cam / shims to check for clearance. Additionally I'd be a little concerned about levering against the cams just in case I tweeked one a little.Let me know how you get on and thanks for watching!PB
PB Thanks, I'm starting Friday eve.
Any chance you could let me know what direction the cam tensioner goes into the block? I assumed the oil pressure supply hole in the tensioner went to the bottom, matching the oil service hole in the block, but the manuals all seem to show that facing up? I didn't pay close enough attention when I broke it down...
Hi, I've just been out and checked mine. There is a small arrow cast into the front cover of the tensioner assembly which points upwards, hopefully this will align the hole correctly with the oil supply hole in the cylinder block.Hope that helps!
thanks much! I'll make sure mine is set the same.
I'm planning out the big job- I'm wondering about the inspection of the camshafts- I assume you have a look for any major signs of wear- but how necessary is it to go through in fine detail the inspection process in the Triumph Service manual (page 3.16 in the usual manual) as there are a lot of steps including the use of Plastiguage to check the distance between the camshaft journal and the camshaft ladder- also says check the camshaft chain- to do that properly requires removal- I'm thinking overkill unless it is a complete engine rebuild- what's your thoughts? and yes I hold you responsible for nothing I choose to do :-)
Hello mate,I see this as mileage dependant really, unless its got a bad service history with infrequent oil changes and the use of poor quality oil. I obviously gave my cams a visual but at 13k I wouldn't have expected anything too serious. In all honesty if I thought I was approaching the wear limit on cam journal / ladders I'd be inclined to think about moving on and getting rid. From what I recall and understand these are non serviceable so if you do have cam journals that are out of spec it's a new head.What's your mileage? Is it noisy on the top end? Are there obvious signs of wear? Do you think you have a problem?I only do about 2.5 to 3k a year on the Thunderbird but always change the oil and filter annually and wouldn't consider anything other than fully synthetic.Hope that helps some!
It's got a service history from 13k and I've done the other service jobs till 22k. I'm not convinced it did it's 13k valve clearance but I needed to improve my skills before i took on the valve job, which I have. The bike is a bit noisy but i have nothing to compare it to- as far as i know they are somewhat noisy engines. Sounds like i can sensibly not go the whole 9 yards with inspecting it all, but if i see or hear a clear problem i should investigate. So yes very helpful. But i do wonder, at some point it has to wear out surely and then what? I want to keep riding until they take it out of my geriatric hands, which is a long way away. Probably I'd have to go to the engineering shop to get it machined again- or replace with a scifi future electric/nuclear/hydro engine
It states somewhere that the head is a non serviceable item. A point which I find somewhat amazing given that it's such a major component with quite a lot going on in it. The cam bearings are machined straight in the head which is of course aluminium hence the need for regular oil changes and good quality oil.If it gets to the point where it has worn out then I'd suggest your in for a whole lot of expense.
Hello mate, I hope this gets to you. I was trying to respond to your other question re checking of the valve timing but Mr TH-cam stuck a text box over the question so when I was trying to delete that I inadvertently deleted your message. Why can't they just leave things alone??Anyhow I've been thinking.......I think the important thing here is to make sure that the timing marks on the cams correspond with the marks on the ladder before you insert the crank locking tool first time round. If you do this and match things up on the rebuild it can't be out as long as you get your cam chain on right and ensure the back run is tight.It's a while since I did it and I do remember seeking council at my local Triumph dealer and I'm sure I'm right in saying that even the technician there said something about the book not being quite right. For me this was the most nerve racking part of the job and certainly not to be treat lightly. As I think I said in the video when you're doing this you've got so many things going on and the window of opportunity is so small. If you miss the hole you have to go all the way round again. If I do, do this again I'll make a tool up so that I can rotate the engine directly by the crank and not turn it through the gearbox. That way you'd definitely have more control.A bit long winded but I hope that helps.Best regardsPB
that makes sense. I think when i strip it down, before I remove the camshaft ladder I'll have to move the engine around and see how many rotations it takes for the marks to line up- 4 or 8. If i know what it is doing before i take it apart that might help. I'm sure i will document my experiences on my website(diythunderbird.weebly.com) , but i've got a few of the triumph tools to get before i start.
wondering If I may chat with you a bit about decompressor ...triumph keeps replacing cylinders and sleeves stating the cylinders are moving in the block had mine changed twice now and 2 decompressors as well after 500-1000 miles the "CLACK" comes back and the CLACK sounds EXACTLY like the decompressor opening and closing while throttle is "feathered" oddfellow 105 at g mail id appreciate it
Hi Tee Bird, what are you actually wanting to discuss?
I've come across a problem. I've gotten to the point that everything was lined up, pin was fully fully in the inner hole and then i removed the chain tension. The outlet cam is free but the inlet cam still has a slight pressure on it. I read in another forum that you can use a spanner somehow to move the cam into a better position (which you need to do so that there is no pressure on it when you release the cam ladder). How did you move the cam ladder- or didn't you need to? Did you need to move it into position on reassembly or did you get it in position and tighten the cam ladder down to secure it?
Ignore- a got the correct size spanner 20mm and it does the job of rotating the cams just fine!
Hello mate!you've had me scratching my head on this, it's nearly two years since I did this and I'm struggling to remember the full detail. I've just checked my notes and looked at the manual. Firstly - on each cam there is a hex cast into the cam, left hand side near the sprocket flange so that you can get a spanner on it. At the back of my mind I think it is something like 21mm but I might be completely wrong on that.You can use that once you've released the cam chain tension to rotate the cam so that it's 'off load' before releasing the ladder bolts. Lift the cam chain off the sprocket first. Again if memory serves me right it will snap round once you get to a certain point, as the valve springs overcome the cam profile. Secondly - when rebuilding set the inlet cam timing (valve timing) first. Can't remember whether I needed the spanner to rotate the cam into the right position on this one or not. The cam chain needs to be tight on the back run, all the slack should be at the front of the engine. Now set the exhaust cam timing (valve timing) by lifting the chain off the exhaust cam sprocket but holding tight so as not to move the inlet cam which you have just set. Use the spanner to align the timing marks on the exhaust cam sprocket and when they line up with the sprocket and the ladder put the chain back on the sprocket. I believe then that the cam will be under tension from the valve springs and will in turn keep the chain taught along the back run and between sprockets.Once you've done that insert the cam chain tensioner and thump the cam chain in the middle of the run between the two cam sprockets. This will release the locking mechanism on the tensioner and allow it to take up the slack on the front run.If you've got the Triumph service manual this covered on page 3.9.Hope that helps! Let me know how you get on!
hello, the crank locking pin, you say 6mm, 10mm then nominal, but can you tell me the lengths of the 6 and 10 please ?
Hi, I'm away at the moment but I'll try and get this info out to you over the weekend!
PB60 ok. Thank you.
If you check out Part 5 in the series I go through the tooling used towards the end of video. The diameters are actually 6 and 10. Lengths I believe we're 42. Hope that helps.
Best regards
PB
PB60 ok I’ll look. Thank you very much.
hello, anybody willing to help me with 1700 ccm engine camshaft timing?
Hi Martin, I've been running Harleys since 17, so am a bit rusty on the workings of the Thunderbird. Camshaft timing for me is always the worst part. You need a good manual and follow the process laid out in that. From memory it's about getting the crank locked in the right place and the timing marks on the camshafts aligned in the right place and then releasing the cam chain tensioner. You need a special tool for locking the crankshaft, which is a bugger to get in, if I remember rightly. If you're in any doubt, take it to a dealer. Sorry, probably not much help!!
Regards PB
@@PB-yt7bf Thanks alot for your reply, last days I found out some more- I knew about the locking pin, but where to put it in? Then I rotated by crank and I found out it´s probably in some "special" ratio in relation crakshaft-middle gear. So after several turns I found out the hole open, not blocked by connection rod or crank weight. So I think now it´s pretty clear to me, I´m just wondering why it is so complicated and to be sincere I´m also in doubt if someone can to construct even more complicated system. Mostly because of need to remove stator - so for the first to remove rotor by puller. Anyway, my friend found out the locking pin measurements somewhere, and it´s d 6mm in 42 mm lenght, then d10mm also in 42 mm lenght, rest about 150mm in d 14mm, but I think diameter and lenght in the last case is not important, because this part is just a handle.
Thank you for the advice.
Martin
@@bezpopisu Hi Martin, I think in one of the videos in that series that I did, I listed all the tools I'd made with the dimensions. Be real careful with that locking pin, it's very easy to bend the tip because the end diameter is so ridiculously small. I didn't consider hardening it when I made it due to the amount of use it would get, I'm also not sure whether hardening, would have made it brittle and prone to snap rather than bend. I agree with your thoughts on complexity, by comparison, working on a Harley is far simpler!!
Good luck.
Regards PB
@@PB-yt7bf I see - thank you very much for the dimensions of the locking pin. I absolutely agree with your opinion regarding heat treatment, I will use it also very rarely. I was carefull while putting the pin into the wheel.
Thank you for your reply.
Martin