Did you even watch the video? If so, you probably missed the part where I said this was the second video covering this, and the first time we used a micrometer. You probably also missed the mic laying there on the table by the end of the cam. I may have to do this video again using a piece of card stock as a go-nogo gauge just to really freak you out.
@@UncleTonysGarage Tony, you are right. After I saw you using the dial calipers, I stopped it, and left my comment that it was much better to use a mic. As a mechanical engineer, I interface with QC department and machine shop and production. Using appropriate measurement instruments is the first step into figuring out a problem. If you start with something many times less accurate than the tolerance that you are trying to measure, your data is junk, and the whole analysis is based on questionable data. In my opinion, showing measuring with dial calipers was wrong. Every shade tree Sam will think that is the proper tool, because people place a higher priority on what they see, over what they hear. If you are trying to measure a .002" delta, the plain geometry of a dial caliper is prohibitive. Plain and simple. ------Doozer
I worked as a mechanic at a John Deere dealership, we had a tractor come in on trade in that needed a cam and lifters due to the injection pump drive gear being sheared off (a common problem on certain models with high hours) The three idiot brothers that owned the dealership ( in some kind of attempt to save money) came out to the shop, "inspect" the lifters and tell me which ones to reuse! I tried to tell them that the parts needed to break in and wear together but they thought they knew better. This and other atrocities was the reason they went out of business a year or so later. At one time these fools owned four JD dealerships! Great video... keep em commin... TMD
One side note, cam lobe don't all have the taper the same direction. IE, The taper being smaller towards the back of the engine. that will cause the cam to be thrust toward the front of the block and the taper smaller toward the front of the cam will push the cam to the back of the block which causes the timing gear to have high load against the front of the block and cause wear on the thrust surfaces of the cam gear and block. Half of the lobes should be tapered to be smaller toward the back and half tapered to be smaller toward the front. The cam lobes should also be parkerized with a dark finish that feels slightly rough to the touch. This hardens the surface and gives some traction for the lifters to make sure the lifters rotate and not just skate on the lobes.
Are they still making defective cams and lifters? Yes it is certainly a good idea to check them after what happened over the last few years. Before that, I doubt anyone actually did. I didn't, 20, 30, 40 years ago. You just assumed that they were made properly, because they always were. Obviously things are different now. Everything seems to be junk.
Over thanksgiving brake we will be taking 1 year old cam and lifters out of a 3406C caterpillar. Cat parts. The cam and lifters are desinagreating. Its getting 30 year old used parts.
I had to do a basic refresh on my Pontiac 389. I reused the stock pistons and nearly everything else. The camshaft was new out of the box from 58 years ago just for the sake of this failure craziness.
They’re still making them. 20 years ago the new parts were actually new and unless there was a metal or oiling problem they tended to be good. Now even ones sold as new are almost always refurbished old ones. And they’re being ground by the cheapest places they can find. So far it hasn’t mattered enough to the companies since anything sent back likely gets quickly inspected and put into another box.
I'm too old for this to matter anymore, but I sure wish I'd seen this 50 years ago. It's been explained numerous times, and I've read it countless times, but this video brought it all together. Thanks Tony
We really missed out by not having the internet and all the information that you can find on it back in the late sixties and into the seventies. Kinda giving our age away talking about it though. Lol Have a good one!
I'm not convinced that the glass in that mopar window is flat. I like to see you put a straight edge on it to prove me wrong lol. Maybe if it was a model T, I'm thinking a coffee table glass would be more accurate but we get the picture. Your schooling me on the taper thing making the spin.
@OldcarsNmusic sounds like a good idea, I'm sure that mopar window was flat enough to show the crown. I was just saying I knew it wasn't the best choice for accuracy. But he is good at sparking up a conversation and making people think. I took it as just a reference. Thought it would be cool if he did check the window for flatness or call me a smart ass or something, lol.
Damn you caught me at the right time, just put a cam that was marked down 50% into an engine I’m putting together. That sucker’s coming right back out and my calipers are going to get a good workout. Thank you Tony!!
This ends miles and miles of forum posts arguing over the cause for overwhelming cam failures- made in China, made in USA, wrong break in, wrong oil, wrong lifters, wrong hardness, this test puts an end to all the guessing, and it's a huge relief.
UT, some topics are worth reviewing, and certainly, this is one of them. You're to credit for my pure stock GTO performing exceptional. Thanks for revisiting the flat tappet criticals.
Well I guess I got lucky back in the day when I built my stroker motor it was a muscle motors kit out of Lansing Michigan before they closed down I put a Mopar performance 509 cam in it everything has been great so far built byme as an 18-year-old punk kid in his dad's garage 28 or 29 years ago
Doing an engine build right now in my downtime from work. Taking way longer than expected because I'm going slow and verifying every single measurement 3 times, and not working while tired. Gunna be the most meticulous grenade ever built!
Put all your lifters on a flatbed scanner or copy machine. Scan it or take a copy. Best method to check your lifter surface. Learned this from a Honda factory. They used this method to check manifold flatness.
@@brianb5779 I will do it tomorrow and inform you what you can expect. You put the lifter on the glass and make a color copy. You can enlarge the image up to 400% and you will clearly see were the lifter is touching the glass and were it is not touching. Professional machines are very sensitive.
@bestmultifunctional Brother ill be def waiting to hear. I have very nice printer at work. I really appreciate this info and look forward to hear back from you. Thanks in advance
After all the cam failures I have seen people talk about on youtube and your vids on how to check lifters, thats the first thing I did last year with the last engine I put together, no issues at a couple thousand miles on it now.
Imagine telling someone that their motor sounds wiped. And then when they look at you start mumbling something about round lobes and valves that don't move much no more. When you think of all the time you'd spend to replace a timing chain and all, why not go the extra little bit and give it a fresh cam and lifters, and really wake it up again. Makes sense to me. Thanks for the info on lifter crowns and camshaft tapers, it's good to know!
Yeah I'm with you there, except... So I have a 560 SEL, m117 engine. Legendarily reliable and long lasting. Legendarily expensive to rebuild. A new set of lifters is over $1,00. Cams aren't made anymore but Febi junk is over $1,000 for a pair. Of course you need new rocker arms because the surfaces mate, which costs a little over $1,000. I rounded way down on each. In total it's about $4k for new lifters, arms, and cams. Not to mention the cam bearings/towers which are over $1,000, but which can be re-used if in great condition. But I wouldn't if I'm changing the cams. Now, Mercedes parts are pretty much never defective. Their quality control is legendary. So much so we rarely buy after market. And these engines are so good people rarely do this. When they do they tend to only rebuild the top end and leave the block. But I'm just saying, in some old cars we're trying to preserve, doing things "right" can be prohibitively expensive...
I go way back as a chevy mechanic before they started calling us technicians 307 327 305s all had cam problems, it was explained to me from too much idling time the cams did not get enough oil splash at idle, later after the small blocks came the 200 and 229 chevy v6 and they ended ip with cam problems mostly all low mileage engines that were drive in the city.
I put a new cam and lifters in my SB Chevy last year. Checked every lobe. Checked every lifter. Wound up buying two sets of lifters, just to get a full set. Used proper break in oil. Didn't even make it through break in. I'm going roller on my next one. Also a big block.
@@MarcusSandoval-kx2thI am using lunati link bar lifters in my 500hp 351w. Been together for almost 5 years without a problem. I shift at 7200 when I beat on it at the track. Combo at this point has about 500ish passes on it.
I must have been lucky 30 year's ago when I built my engine, didn't check everything like you guys 😂😅, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
A friend of mine bought a 1985 Chevrolet Camaro with a lightly built 305 in it that was not running. We found out why it was not running, cylinder 7 had both cam lobes and hydraulic flat tappet lifters wiped out, the intake lifter was nearly half gone! I thought at first it was a bad grind on the cam and/or lifters, but considering they were sticking and others were damaged and were sticking, I think the previous owner never touched the block to clean it up and just threw new parts into it without considering clearances. I did warn my friend as we tore the engine apart, that when he has the block freshened up and gets new parts ordered in, make sure to measure EVERYTHING and check the grind on the camshaft and lifters. I actually think he is going to go with hydraulic roller lifters on the rebuild, despite the fact everyone keeps telling him to rebuild a 350 and trash the 305.
Back in the late 1980s early 1990s when I worked at GM dealership, we replaced many a 305 camshaft. ( 350s never really had an issue) I think some of the 305 cams were the start of out sourcing their parts like Mexico. Never did we "Break in a new camshaft" If the grind of the shaft and lifters are properly done there really was no need for a "Break in period" . I think the need for a "Break in " came when the crappy grinds of todays camshaft's and lifters as a way to try and cover the manufactures butt as they know their "Out sourced "grinds have an issue.
@@bw3506 Could be although if the engine/parts are built properly they work fine with less zinc , the American Petroleum Institute (API) has caused the oil industry to reduce the amount of zinc in oil since 1994. Newer cars are designed to use modern oils with lower zinc content, so there shouldn't be a problem if you have a newer car. Using too much zinc can also be bad.
@@442olds7just like using magnesium rich oil used in Diesels, its all about metal compatibility and the newer engines are using even thinner oil. I prefer 10w40 for vehicles. Race engines claim 50...
a very easy way to check the Lifters, this is great ! I've learned a lot of your viedeos. with a thigt budget how to get the best out of your engine parts like checking/inspecting all yomponents. I think this is the difference between an engine builder and engine assembler.
Some engines including old Toyota cars did have flat lobes and lifters ie no lobe taper or lifter radius or very little lifter radius, relying on the lifter offset to the cam lobe to encourage lifter rotation. Excessive lifter radius discourages rotation, has to be a close match to avoid failure and allow a fast bed in process.
That & the use of zink when breaking the cam in but I know a person that's in the same car club I'm in that built a 383 for his 67 Plymouth GTX convertible and when we put it on the dyno to start it up to do the cam break in it was coughing through the intake & carburetor and he thought that maybe a plug wire was off so we checked that & made sure the plug wires were in the correct firing order & everything was good so after looking at the ignition everything was spot on & it still kept caughing on this 1 cylinder so we pulled the engine off the dyno and he took the engine home for tear down and found out that 1 lobe on the cam was completely out of phase of timing and wasn't opening up at the proper time that was causing this whole problem . The good thing is was the engine wasn't run much at all so no metal shavings in the oil at all after tearing down and looking closely and cutting the oil filter open . So he had a old Mopar purple shaft that was still good with nos lifters and he installed that & off it went to RPM race performance and machine dyno room in Cumberland Wisconsin and on the engine went to be started and run to do heat cycles and no problems at all . Another person from the car club built a SBC for his 41 Ford rat rod truck that he had brought to be started up and broke in on the same dyno and it ran perfectly good & once he put the engine in the truck about 300 miles later that cam went flat so evidently the cam he used which was new he said wasn't properly heat treated & was soft because all of the lifters and cam lobes were worn bad . It was a mild build 350 that he was shooting for 300 HP because this truck is light but the cam still failed but I'm not sure if he was using double valve springs on this build or not because usually when running a hydraulic flat tappet cam that has to run dual valve springs you take the inner springs out so there's less spring pressure being put on the cam lobes and lifters and once the cam is broke in the inner valve springs go back in to then start the hunt of finding more power and torque so maybe that was a mistake they made on not removing those inner valve springs who knows .
Dial caliper for life. Good man, Tony! You might want to pick up some V Blocks too. Actually I bet you have some. I am looking at a new build but I am cheating I think, with a roller cam short block. I'll reuse my heads etc but I am the CMM operator at work, it's going to be be easy-peasy to check flatness on the heads, I'll just map it out. Flat tappet lifters would be a breeze. But, a 150 grand CMM isn't all that common in the home garage LOL.
A good way to actually see the crown on the lifters I have found is to hold the lifter face to the side of another lifter and hold it up to the light (preferably overhead lighting), if the lifters have crown you will see it plain as day as you rock the lifter around slightly.
Have always thought of flat tappet/cam lobe interface as dealing with moving a oxygen/CO2 bottle. If you leave the bottle straight up and down on concrete floor and try to slide it, it does not want to move. If you tilt it and try to slide it it's better, but still a pain. If you tilt it a little, and roll it on the bottom circumference it moves across the floor with little effort.
great info. you dont want a cam problem. measure with a micrometer. ive seen cam lobes worn down to the core which puts a lot of metal particles into the oil.youll know right away once you remove the lifter. the lifters get worn on the bottom once the cam lobe starts wearing down. tap tap tap tap tap youll hear it
We always mark the lifter on one side we rotate it a few times throughout the install and if those lines aren’t moved then it’s removed and rechecked or replaced. I have noticed the cams we had ground never had problems. The ones that just came off the shelf as a kit system we had problems with. Not sure why but that’s the case for us. So we spin them And the lifters better spin
It would be clearer if you said you rotate the cam shaft to verify that the lifters also rotate. Are you looking for a complete rotation on each lifter to confirm there is not a dead spot or equal spin? Serious question there, still lots to learn.
u cant say it enough U.T......especaly....nowadays....!...!..as u have said in past videos....dont take "anything" 4 granted...check everything...!..way to go U.T.....have a healthy & happy T-day...!
Hope this build goes well!! I'd prefer putting chevy lifters on that elgin cam for quality and durability, but maybe that's just me! ✌✌ can't wait to hear that engine!!
I was just saying, No that only means one lifter has crown! I also was thinking you're doing something wrong with those calipers because those two lobes have way different measurements, one is an intake and the other is exhaust. Not my day. I need a nap. Good video and good info 👍
Well really it should be the manufacturer's responsibility to get things made right but if you don't check it yourself first to make certain you're just asking for trouble
Any reason the taper is so gentle? Would it be possible to have a heavier taper to allow for more wear? Also I have a video idea, I bet a lot of younger guys don’t know how to use/ read a calliper/ micrometer. A video explaining that might be helpful
Not checking every new part bit me hard first 6mo in business - CHECK THEM ALL! I've had excellent experiences with Elgin products - They're not a big name in performance, but in standard replacement parts - but their performance parts are excellent.
Im shure that black moly grease all over the cam and a proper break in has always worked out for me i even coated one with moly graph.dry film and it came out impregnated into the metal worked out too
For lifters you also want to make sure the dome it centered. So face to face hold them up to a light then turn bottom 90 look turn to 90 and look so your doing a 0-90-180 all positions need to be identical and each compared to several different lifters. Easiest way to actually measure how much dome on the lifter is again face to face in a peice of angle iron then measure the edge with feeler gauge and again youll need to check maltiple lifter against each other.
G.m. lifters used to have a 1/8 inch hardened pad on the bottom . I think one can still buy those type & maybe no longer from g.m . If not i wouldnt recommend running flat tappet. You can tell if they have the pad by the grove around the lifter body
There’s one thing I’d like to add…..BEFORE you start assembling the engine take a new lifter and drop it in each of the lifter bores!! Evidently when whomever tore the engine down one of the lifters was slightly mushroomed and it was beaten through the lifter bore!! In the process the bore was damaged, just couldn’t see it😟😡! It was found after we tore the new engine down when it developed a strange ticking sound! Ruined the cam, lifter and the block since the bore was too far gone to repair! A friend of mine said “Hey at least you caught it right away!!” No, nothing about that was ok!
As someone that's made scrap in a (non perfomance) machine shop, just getting busy with hundreds of parts depending of dept, ish happens. You'd hope a final inspector would catch it all.
Hi Uncle Tony...I have a 4 cyl. 1.8L engine with about 22,000 mile on new cam and solid lifters and about 1/3 of the lifters have never turned. I recently measured the lift on each valve with the magnetic base gauge at the spring retainer and found that all of them only varied about 1 to 2 thou. in fact some of the higher lift ones were the non spinning ones. I was thinking about installing new lifter or should I just keep running it the way it is? engine runs great, What's your advice on this?
I know that cam box Elgin super stock. Have one in my 302 was a great cam and lifter set for a pretty well stock 302 with bolt ons. You said engine kit I’m guessing based on the cam kit northern auto parts?
Oh sure, you're telling me this NOW! I coulda used this pearl of wisdom before a Comp Cam and lifters killed every bearing, the crank, oil pump etc in my 401FE. A little over $2k to replace all that and go with a Howards cams roller and another set of springs and pushrods.
Howards and Isky seem to work well. I am in Europe so roller is way to go if my 383 ever needs rebuild. Your $2000 bill would be more like $4000 just because of shipping for me. Cranks are heavy and expensive to ship.
So....what's an ideal taper on the lobe and crown on the lifter face? is it "generic", or does it vary by manufacturer? I have heard .003-.004 on taper, and .001-.002 on lifter crown. Going to be building a hot rod Buick 350 soon, have the parts, need to check them. New TA Performance cam and a set of N.O.S. Johnson lifters (with EDM holes) from the 80's.
You've probably answered this question a thousand times but I'm pretty new to the channel so please bear with me. I've heard arguments from both sides; on hydraulic lifters, do i need to soak them in oil and pump them up before installation or is it better to just use assembly lube and not worry about soaking and pumping up? I know assemby lube us used either way.
Not sure but I think some manufacturers put lobe slightly off center to help rotate the buckets rather than use/rely on a taper. Probably more oil present at idle vs normal cam in block lifter setup as well.
There’s one thing I’d like to add…..BEFORE you start assembling the engine take a new lifter and drop it in each of the lifter bores!! Evidently when whomever tore the engine down one of the lifters was slightly mushroomed and it was beaten through the lifter bore!! In the process the bore was damaged, just couldn’t see it😟😡! It was found after we tore the new engine down when it developed a strange ticking sound! Ruined the cam, lifter and the block since the bore was too far gone to repair!
just a basic question- when the cam and lifter fail, the metal debris splashes down into the pan. then the oil pump picks it up and it goes thru the pump. then, shouldn't the oil filter catch the debris? or is the debris passing thru the filter and going throughout the engine? or is it because there is some bypass always circumventing the filter and thus getting circulated thru engine via oil passageways?
I was just thinking, has anyone ever tested or offered coated lifters? The lifters having a similar coating as used on piston skirts. Maybe something harder and thinner. The ceramic coatings and ptfe/Teflon coatings surely there is something that can help the cam survive with this modern oil. Maybe just adding liquid moly additive , with a bit of Lucas stabilizer the moly may do what the zddp did. A high pressure lubricant. I guess a roller cam would be one "fix". Happy holidays!
Wish that he would do a video on Link bars breaking on a solid roller set up. I lost a whole motor because of that I just did a video on it and I can’t seem to find anything anywhere on how even that can happen.
Didn’t now about tapering. Always thought the cam and lifters were straight. I did recommend a friend to use new lifters when installing a used sporty cam. But he just used the existing followers of the cam he replaced. That’s clearly a no go.
That's where the old solid lifter VW liquid cooled engines were fun, just change the shim for a new one that's on top of the "bucket" Ohc so it's not really a lifter it's more like a downer 🤣 Hadda set the clearances anyway and a new shim wasn't but a buck or 2. If he kept the lifters in order ,it's no problem but it sounds like he had em all rolling around loose in a box, so yeah that's no bueno
I ran into a problem that I have never had before. I am 60 been building engines since I ws 14. I have a 1984 350 Chevy which I put a new cam and lifters in. I adjust the preset and did everything as usual. But this thing just not fire up. Just back fire through th carb. Put another carb on it and same issue I have checked and rechecked everything.
Does anyone remember in the 90s in any decent "hot rod" shop. We had a catalog that was maroon. They had EVERY factory cam grind listing for OEM. those cams were bulletproof. Maroon cover. Killing me that I can't remember. I never had a problem with any of them. Of course, I haven't built an engine since then either
Shit you got me nervous i just put a 305 together( first build for money ) i checked the lifter like you showed us b4 but didn't check the lobes but i marked each lifter, rolled engine over by hand and they all spin. However 2 are slower than the rest but they are not pumped up
C'mon Tony! Can't I just slap a straight edge on the lobes and lifters and eyeball it? Then after that just use a half round or flat file to make it tapered? I'm guessing NO....
Just in time Tony,Im ready to build a motor for my gasser (59 Hillman Husky w/sbc )and dont want to spend the money for a roller...So is Elgin your go to cam company? Do you use there lifters too? I ordered your stickers to go on the car...thanks
You really need a high grade granite surface plate for measuring your lobes and lifters. You can buy them pretty damned cheaply today, so no excuses. You also need a dial bore gage (again, you can get them pretty cheap today, just do your research before buying), make sure your lifter bores are correct for a flat tappet lifter. If the bore is too loose, even though your lifter may have the correct crown, and your cam lobes may have the correct tapper, that lifter flopping around in that loose bore will also eat your camshaft lobes in short order! Get a set of decent micrometers so you can take "true" measurements of your main and rod surfaces on your crankshaft, then use your bore gage to check your bearing clearances on your rods and main caps before assembly. Don't forget feeler gauges so you can check your piston ring end gap. Also check your ring groves and rings for proper clearance. A few hundred dollars now can save you several thousand dollars later. Just remember, if you are the one building the engine, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure everything is correct before assembly.
Uncle Tony is trying to appeal to the low-lifes of the hobby with zero money and zero tools. That is where his views come from. Measuring correctly with a surface plate and vee blocks or even a micrometer, would upset his subscriber base because they are predominately cheap skates with a Harbor Freight mentality. You (we) are just wasting our time telling how to measure the accurate way. At least here we are. ---Doozer
My sensei use to say YOU NEVER LEARN ANYTHING WITHOUT PAIN- 1st professional fight Loss split decision after fight severe swelling in legs for 2 months next fight understood from pain I must block low kick with shin and then kickback immediately and opponent can't block this recovery.
Use a micrometer. Good Lord ! ---Doozer
You need to help this poor chap
Did you even watch the video? If so, you probably missed the part where I said this was the second video covering this, and the first time we used a micrometer.
You probably also missed the mic laying there on the table by the end of the cam.
I may have to do this video again using a piece of card stock as a go-nogo gauge just to really freak you out.
@@UncleTonysGarage We're both accomplished machinists, so just ignore us
@@UncleTonysGarage Tony, you are right. After I saw you using the dial calipers, I stopped it, and left my comment that it was much better to use a mic. As a mechanical engineer, I interface with QC department and machine shop and production. Using appropriate measurement instruments is the first step into figuring out a problem. If you start with something many times less accurate than the tolerance that you are trying to measure, your data is junk, and the whole analysis is based on questionable data. In my opinion, showing measuring with dial calipers was wrong. Every shade tree Sam will think that is the proper tool, because people place a higher priority on what they see, over what they hear. If you are trying to measure a .002" delta, the plain geometry of a dial caliper is prohibitive. Plain and simple. ------Doozer
There's better ways yet, but here it's just do it, and in a way with good results
This channel is the closest thing to an internship with an engine builder. A true source of knowledge worth its weight in gold.
Uncle Tony is the reason I bought a fox body Mustang (actually I’ve owned four 👍🏻).
I worked as a mechanic at a John Deere dealership, we had a tractor come in on trade in that needed a cam and lifters due to the injection pump drive gear being sheared off (a common problem on certain models with high hours) The three idiot brothers that owned the dealership ( in some kind of attempt to save money) came out to the shop, "inspect" the lifters and tell me which ones to reuse! I tried to tell them that the parts needed to break in and wear together but they thought they knew better. This and other atrocities was the reason they went out of business a year or so later. At one time these fools owned four JD dealerships! Great video... keep em commin... TMD
I'm always impressed with how much deep knowledge of muscle cars this channel has to offer.
hidraulic,,,
One side note, cam lobe don't all have the taper the same direction. IE, The taper being smaller towards the back of the engine. that will cause the cam to be thrust toward the front of the block and the taper smaller toward the front of the cam will push the cam to the back of the block which causes the timing gear to have high load against the front of the block and cause wear on the thrust surfaces of the cam gear and block. Half of the lobes should be tapered to be smaller toward the back and half tapered to be smaller toward the front.
The cam lobes should also be parkerized with a dark finish that feels slightly rough to the touch. This hardens the surface and gives some traction for the lifters to make sure the lifters rotate and not just skate on the lobes.
Are they still making defective cams and lifters? Yes it is certainly a good idea to check them after what happened over the last few years. Before that, I doubt anyone actually did. I didn't, 20, 30, 40 years ago. You just assumed that they were made properly, because they always were. Obviously things are different now. Everything seems to be junk.
Over thanksgiving brake we will be taking 1 year old cam and lifters out of a 3406C caterpillar. Cat parts. The cam and lifters are desinagreating. Its getting 30 year old used parts.
I had to do a basic refresh on my Pontiac 389. I reused the stock pistons and nearly everything else. The camshaft was new out of the box from 58 years ago just for the sake of this failure craziness.
@@newcitycarpet3675 new old stock parts are worth their weight in gold
If it came from China, I'd probably send it back. Same with ",Hecho en Mexico ". Neither ever seemed to hear of Quality Control.
They’re still making them. 20 years ago the new parts were actually new and unless there was a metal or oiling problem they tended to be good. Now even ones sold as new are almost always refurbished old ones. And they’re being ground by the cheapest places they can find.
So far it hasn’t mattered enough to the companies since anything sent back likely gets quickly inspected and put into another box.
I'm too old for this to matter anymore, but I sure wish I'd seen this 50 years ago. It's been explained numerous times, and I've read it countless times, but this video brought it all together. Thanks Tony
We really missed out by not having the internet and all the information that you can find on it back in the late sixties and into the seventies. Kinda giving our age away talking about it though. Lol Have a good one!
I'm not convinced that the glass in that mopar window is flat. I like to see you put a straight edge on it to prove me wrong lol. Maybe if it was a model T, I'm thinking a coffee table glass would be more accurate but we get the picture. Your schooling me on the taper thing making the spin.
The table in my kitchen has flat panes in it. That's how I'll be checking the new lifters, for the XE250H going in my 318.
@OldcarsNmusic sounds like a good idea, I'm sure that mopar window was flat enough to show the crown. I was just saying I knew it wasn't the best choice for accuracy. But he is good at sparking up a conversation and making people think. I took it as just a reference. Thought it would be cool if he did check the window for flatness or call me a smart ass or something, lol.
Damn you caught me at the right time, just put a cam that was marked down 50% into an engine I’m putting together. That sucker’s coming right back out and my calipers are going to get a good workout. Thank you Tony!!
Use a mic. Ditch the calipers. --Doozer
@@kooldoozerThanks, wasn’t sure which way to go on that but I generally like micrometers better anyways
This ends miles and miles of forum posts arguing over the cause for overwhelming cam failures- made in China, made in USA, wrong break in, wrong oil, wrong lifters, wrong hardness, this test puts an end to all the guessing, and it's a huge relief.
Not really just eliminates one failure point. The rest can still apply.
UT, some topics are worth reviewing, and certainly, this is one of them. You're to credit for my pure stock GTO performing exceptional. Thanks for revisiting the flat tappet criticals.
Well I guess I got lucky back in the day when I built my stroker motor it was a muscle motors kit out of Lansing Michigan before they closed down I put a Mopar performance 509 cam in it everything has been great so far built byme as an 18-year-old punk kid in his dad's garage 28 or 29 years ago
Doing an engine build right now in my downtime from work. Taking way longer than expected because I'm going slow and verifying every single measurement 3 times, and not working while tired. Gunna be the most meticulous grenade ever built!
Thanks Tony. Just about to install a new cam and lifters.
@@seanMGB1975 The sides of lifters are flat, no need to go looking.
Put all your lifters on a flatbed scanner or copy machine. Scan it or take a copy. Best method to check your lifter surface. Learned this from a Honda factory. They used this method to check manifold flatness.
Hate to bother and sound stupid but can you elaborate. Im not understanding what your meaning but damn curious.
First time reading about this? Need to try this.
@@brianb5779 I will do it tomorrow and inform you what you can expect. You put the lifter on the glass and make a color copy. You can enlarge the image up to 400% and you will clearly see were the lifter is touching the glass and were it is not touching. Professional machines are very sensitive.
@bestmultifunctional Brother ill be def waiting to hear. I have very nice printer at work. I really appreciate this info and look forward to hear back from you. Thanks in advance
After all the cam failures I have seen people talk about on youtube and your vids on how to check lifters, thats the first thing I did last year with the last engine I put together, no issues at a couple thousand miles on it now.
Imagine telling someone that their motor sounds wiped. And then when they look at you start mumbling something about round lobes and valves that don't move much no more. When you think of all the time you'd spend to replace a timing chain and all, why not go the extra little bit and give it a fresh cam and lifters, and really wake it up again. Makes sense to me. Thanks for the info on lifter crowns and camshaft tapers, it's good to know!
Because new parts are defective?
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 Being new has nothing to do with being defective or not. It happens every day. New means nothing. --Doozer
@@kooldoozer This explains why replacement cam failure reports are frequent.
Trust no one, Verify everything! This saying is so true, have a good one everybody!
Yeah I'm with you there, except... So I have a 560 SEL, m117 engine. Legendarily reliable and long lasting. Legendarily expensive to rebuild. A new set of lifters is over $1,00. Cams aren't made anymore but Febi junk is over $1,000 for a pair. Of course you need new rocker arms because the surfaces mate, which costs a little over $1,000.
I rounded way down on each. In total it's about $4k for new lifters, arms, and cams. Not to mention the cam bearings/towers which are over $1,000, but which can be re-used if in great condition. But I wouldn't if I'm changing the cams.
Now, Mercedes parts are pretty much never defective. Their quality control is legendary. So much so we rarely buy after market. And these engines are so good people rarely do this. When they do they tend to only rebuild the top end and leave the block. But I'm just saying, in some old cars we're trying to preserve, doing things "right" can be prohibitively expensive...
Thats why i switched to Howard's cams. They take pride in their work. It seems that 50% of comp cams wreckin themselves
Elgin is good too
I go way back as a chevy mechanic before they started calling us technicians 307 327 305s all had cam problems, it was explained to me from too much idling time the cams did not get enough oil splash at idle, later after the small blocks came the 200 and 229 chevy v6 and they ended ip with cam problems mostly all low mileage engines that were drive in the city.
So what was the solution to the said problem? A HV pump or a HP pump?
UT, Thank you very much. I learned a lot from the video about how the lifters rotate in the bore. You always provide outstanding information.
I put a new cam and lifters in my SB Chevy last year. Checked every lobe. Checked every lifter. Wound up buying two sets of lifters, just to get a full set. Used proper break in oil. Didn't even make it through break in. I'm going roller on my next one. Also a big block.
Yep 👍 that's what I did ...I got a roller block I don't trust those link bars on the retro lifters ...never looked back 😂 rollers are Great 👍
Put moly grease on each lobe wipe it in good. Just a thin smear all around. Then use assembly lube.
Ask Tony about the roller cam that did the same exact thing… roller tip came off and ate cam lobe. It’s a sad sad situation us car guys are in.
here is your solution if you want to run flat tappets now a days th-cam.com/video/wHjN5YVDXr8/w-d-xo.html
@@MarcusSandoval-kx2thI am using lunati link bar lifters in my 500hp 351w. Been together for almost 5 years without a problem. I shift at 7200 when I beat on it at the track. Combo at this point has about 500ish passes on it.
Use oil with zinc. Summit sells it. Its the old recipe for engines before catalitic converters.
I must have been lucky 30 year's ago when I built my engine, didn't check everything like you guys 😂😅, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
We didn't have to back then...
Yes, uncle Tony. I learned that the hard way.
A friend of mine bought a 1985 Chevrolet Camaro with a lightly built 305 in it that was not running. We found out why it was not running, cylinder 7 had both cam lobes and hydraulic flat tappet lifters wiped out, the intake lifter was nearly half gone! I thought at first it was a bad grind on the cam and/or lifters, but considering they were sticking and others were damaged and were sticking, I think the previous owner never touched the block to clean it up and just threw new parts into it without considering clearances. I did warn my friend as we tore the engine apart, that when he has the block freshened up and gets new parts ordered in, make sure to measure EVERYTHING and check the grind on the camshaft and lifters. I actually think he is going to go with hydraulic roller lifters on the rebuild, despite the fact everyone keeps telling him to rebuild a 350 and trash the 305.
Use the side of the lifter as the straight edge
UT, this is an outstanding video - informative, well presented, well paced. This type of video is what you do better than anyone. Much appreciated.
Back in the late 1980s early 1990s when I worked at GM dealership, we replaced many a 305 camshaft. ( 350s never really had an issue) I think some of the 305 cams were the start of out sourcing their parts like Mexico. Never did we "Break in a new camshaft" If the grind of the shaft and lifters are properly done there really was no need for a "Break in period" . I think the need for a "Break in " came when the crappy grinds of todays camshaft's and lifters as a way to try and cover the manufactures butt as they know their "Out sourced "grinds have an issue.
Probably right. The oil was still good for flat tappet in the 80's as well.
@@bw3506 Could be although if the engine/parts are built properly they work fine with less zinc , the American Petroleum Institute (API) has caused the oil industry to reduce the amount of zinc in oil since 1994. Newer cars are designed to use modern oils with lower zinc content, so there shouldn't be a problem if you have a newer car. Using too much zinc can also be bad.
@@442olds7just like using magnesium rich oil used in Diesels, its all about metal compatibility and the newer engines are using even thinner oil. I prefer 10w40 for vehicles. Race engines claim 50...
Thank You. I plan to build a V8 someday and this aspect is ignored on the other places I watch.
a very easy way to check the Lifters, this is great !
I've learned a lot of your viedeos. with a thigt budget how to get the best out of your engine parts like checking/inspecting all yomponents.
I think this is the difference between an engine builder and engine assembler.
Some engines including old Toyota cars did have flat lobes and lifters ie no lobe taper or lifter radius or very little lifter radius, relying on the lifter offset to the cam lobe to encourage lifter rotation. Excessive lifter radius discourages rotation, has to be a close match to avoid failure and allow a fast bed in process.
95/100 its generally people not doing what the manufacturer says for oil,getting that rpm up right away and priming the engine before start up !
That & the use of zink when breaking the cam in but I know a person that's in the same car club I'm in that built a 383 for his 67 Plymouth GTX convertible and when we put it on the dyno to start it up to do the cam break in it was coughing through the intake & carburetor and he thought that maybe a plug wire was off so we checked that & made sure the plug wires were in the correct firing order & everything was good so after looking at the ignition everything was spot on & it still kept caughing on this 1 cylinder so we pulled the engine off the dyno and he took the engine home for tear down and found out that 1 lobe on the cam was completely out of phase of timing and wasn't opening up at the proper time that was causing this whole problem . The good thing is was the engine wasn't run much at all so no metal shavings in the oil at all after tearing down and looking closely and cutting the oil filter open . So he had a old Mopar purple shaft that was still good with nos lifters and he installed that & off it went to RPM race performance and machine dyno room in Cumberland Wisconsin and on the engine went to be started and run to do heat cycles and no problems at all . Another person from the car club built a SBC for his 41 Ford rat rod truck that he had brought to be started up and broke in on the same dyno and it ran perfectly good & once he put the engine in the truck about 300 miles later that cam went flat so evidently the cam he used which was new he said wasn't properly heat treated & was soft because all of the lifters and cam lobes were worn bad . It was a mild build 350 that he was shooting for 300 HP because this truck is light but the cam still failed but I'm not sure if he was using double valve springs on this build or not because usually when running a hydraulic flat tappet cam that has to run dual valve springs you take the inner springs out so there's less spring pressure being put on the cam lobes and lifters and once the cam is broke in the inner valve springs go back in to then start the hunt of finding more power and torque so maybe that was a mistake they made on not removing those inner valve springs who knows .
Dial caliper for life. Good man, Tony! You might want to pick up some V Blocks too. Actually I bet you have some.
I am looking at a new build but I am cheating I think, with a roller cam short block. I'll reuse my heads etc but I am the CMM operator at work, it's going to be be easy-peasy to check flatness on the heads, I'll just map it out. Flat tappet lifters would be a breeze. But, a 150 grand CMM isn't all that common in the home garage LOL.
You are a CMM tech and you are advocating dial calipers? Use a mic. What's wrong with you grasshopper ? ----Doozer
A good way to actually see the crown on the lifters I have found is to hold the lifter face to the side of another lifter and hold it up to the light (preferably overhead lighting), if the lifters have crown you will see it plain as day as you rock the lifter around slightly.
Have always thought of flat tappet/cam lobe interface as dealing with moving a oxygen/CO2 bottle. If you leave the bottle straight up and down on concrete floor and try to slide it, it does not want to move. If you tilt it and try to slide it it's better, but still a pain. If you tilt it a little, and roll it on the bottom circumference it moves across the floor with little effort.
great info. you dont want a cam problem. measure with a micrometer. ive seen cam lobes worn down to the core which puts a lot of metal particles into the oil.youll know right away once you remove the lifter. the lifters get worn on the bottom once the cam lobe starts wearing down. tap tap tap tap tap youll hear it
Check the hardness of the pushrod guides on the new heads with a file. Another problem area that can hurt you.
They shouldn't touch at all...
We always mark the lifter on one side we rotate it a few times throughout the install and if those lines aren’t moved then it’s removed and rechecked or replaced. I have noticed the cams we had ground never had problems. The ones that just came off the shelf as a kit system we had problems with. Not sure why but that’s the case for us. So we spin them And the lifters better spin
It would be clearer if you said you rotate the cam shaft to verify that the lifters also rotate. Are you looking for a complete rotation on each lifter to confirm there is not a dead spot or equal spin? Serious question there, still lots to learn.
@ Tomato tomoto 🤷🏻♂️
u cant say it enough U.T......especaly....nowadays....!...!..as u have said in past videos....dont take "anything" 4 granted...check everything...!..way to go U.T.....have a healthy & happy T-day...!
Never thought about doing this check. Never heard of it before.
with taper and crown, how much is enough, how little is too little.
Hope this build goes well!! I'd prefer putting chevy lifters on that elgin cam for quality and durability, but maybe that's just me! ✌✌ can't wait to hear that engine!!
Doesnt elgin make lifters as well?
I was just saying, No that only means one lifter has crown! I also was thinking you're doing something wrong with those calipers because those two lobes have way different measurements, one is an intake and the other is exhaust. Not my day. I need a nap. Good video and good info 👍
I love these mechanical trick vidyas.
quality control is the builder responsibility
Well really it should be the manufacturer's responsibility to get things made right but if you don't check it yourself first to make certain you're just asking for trouble
It should be double checked by the builder, but it’s inexcusable for a company to send out a bad part. Quality needs to start at the factory.
Do you think poison control is the responsibility of the food eater ? ? ? -----Doozer
Any reason the taper is so gentle? Would it be possible to have a heavier taper to allow for more wear? Also I have a video idea, I bet a lot of younger guys don’t know how to use/ read a calliper/ micrometer. A video explaining that might be helpful
it just needs enough to spin.....if there is any wear it will eat itself completely anyway
@@yurimodin7333 that’s a good point
How about checking the bearing surfaces while you're at it?
Not checking every new part bit me hard first 6mo in business - CHECK THEM ALL!
I've had excellent experiences with Elgin products -
They're not a big name in performance, but in standard replacement parts - but their performance parts are excellent.
brilliant !...go slow now...go fast later !
Im shure that black moly grease all over the cam and a proper break in has always worked out for me i even coated one with moly graph.dry film and it came out impregnated into the metal worked out too
Best use Elgin cams and lifters
Thanks UTG
For lifters you also want to make sure the dome it centered. So face to face hold them up to a light then turn bottom 90 look turn to 90 and look so your doing a 0-90-180 all positions need to be identical and each compared to several different lifters. Easiest way to actually measure how much dome on the lifter is again face to face in a peice of angle iron then measure the edge with feeler gauge and again youll need to check maltiple lifter against each other.
I would check the bottom of the lifter with the side(smooth part)of another lifter.
G.m. lifters used to have a 1/8 inch hardened pad on the bottom . I think one can still buy those type & maybe no longer from g.m . If not i wouldnt recommend running flat tappet. You can tell if they have the pad by the grove around the lifter body
There’s one thing I’d like to add…..BEFORE you start assembling the engine take a new lifter and drop it in each of the lifter bores!! Evidently when whomever tore the engine down one of the lifters was slightly mushroomed and it was beaten through the lifter bore!! In the process the bore was damaged, just couldn’t see it😟😡! It was found after we tore the new engine down when it developed a strange ticking sound! Ruined the cam, lifter and the block since the bore was too far gone to repair! A friend of mine said “Hey at least you caught it right away!!” No, nothing about that was ok!
great info thank you your wisdom is hugely appreciated
OOPS! you dropped your knowledge. Thanks Tony!
Great Tip UT.
Really informative
Thanks for the video!!!
Nice if only i could afford a cam and lifters
Ebay
You can 😂
I know. Bidenomics has been a bitch.
Yeah the now $400 for a cam that will probably fail is a bunch of shit
As someone that's made scrap in a (non perfomance) machine shop, just getting busy with hundreds of parts depending of dept, ish happens. You'd hope a final inspector would catch it all.
great Video Tony !
Hi Uncle Tony...I have a 4 cyl. 1.8L engine with about 22,000 mile on new cam and solid lifters and about 1/3 of the lifters have never turned. I recently measured the lift on each valve with the magnetic base gauge at the spring retainer and found that all of them only varied about 1 to 2 thou. in fact some of the higher lift ones were the non spinning ones. I was thinking about installing new lifter or should I just keep running it the way it is? engine runs great, What's your advice on this?
I know that cam box Elgin super stock. Have one in my 302 was a great cam and lifter set for a pretty well stock 302 with bolt ons. You said engine kit I’m guessing based on the cam kit northern auto parts?
Oh sure, you're telling me this NOW! I coulda used this pearl of wisdom before a Comp Cam and lifters killed every bearing, the crank, oil pump etc in my 401FE. A little over $2k to replace all that and go with a Howards cams roller and another set of springs and pushrods.
Howards and Isky seem to work well. I am in Europe so roller is way to go if my 383 ever needs rebuild. Your $2000 bill would be more like $4000 just because of shipping for me. Cranks are heavy and expensive to ship.
So....what's an ideal taper on the lobe and crown on the lifter face? is it "generic", or does it vary by manufacturer? I have heard .003-.004 on taper, and .001-.002 on lifter crown. Going to be building a hot rod Buick 350 soon, have the parts, need to check them. New TA Performance cam and a set of N.O.S. Johnson lifters (with EDM holes) from the 80's.
Good tip! thanks !
You've probably answered this question a thousand times but I'm pretty new to the channel so please bear with me.
I've heard arguments from both sides; on hydraulic lifters, do i need to soak them in oil and pump them up before installation or is it better to just use assembly lube and not worry about soaking and pumping up? I know assemby lube us used either way.
Thanks for sharing 😊
Don't some manufacturers still use shim and bucket tappets for OHC engines? How are they not wiping cams left and right?
Not sure but I think some manufacturers put lobe slightly off center to help rotate the buckets rather than use/rely on a taper. Probably more oil present at idle vs normal cam in block lifter setup as well.
awesome video tutorial!!
Great idea ut thanks for the tip
There’s one thing I’d like to add…..BEFORE you start assembling the engine take a new lifter and drop it in each of the lifter bores!! Evidently when whomever tore the engine down one of the lifters was slightly mushroomed and it was beaten through the lifter bore!! In the process the bore was damaged, just couldn’t see it😟😡! It was found after we tore the new engine down when it developed a strange ticking sound! Ruined the cam, lifter and the block since the bore was too far gone to repair!
just a basic question- when the cam and lifter fail, the metal debris splashes down into the pan. then the oil pump picks it up and it goes thru the pump. then, shouldn't the oil filter catch the debris? or is the debris passing thru the filter and going throughout the engine? or is it because there is some bypass always circumventing the filter and thus getting circulated thru engine via oil passageways?
I was just thinking, has anyone ever tested or offered coated lifters? The lifters having a similar coating as used on piston skirts. Maybe something harder and thinner. The ceramic coatings and ptfe/Teflon coatings surely there is something that can help the cam survive with this modern oil. Maybe just adding liquid moly additive , with a bit of Lucas stabilizer the moly may do what the zddp did. A high pressure lubricant. I guess a roller cam would be one "fix". Happy holidays!
Wish that he would do a video on Link bars breaking on a solid roller set up. I lost a whole motor because of that I just did a video on it and I can’t seem to find anything anywhere on how even that can happen.
Was this what was wrong with bottle rocket?
Uncle Tony can you tell me the dimensions of the push roads of 426 2 gen hemi with hidraulic lifter ??
Didn’t now about tapering. Always thought the cam and lifters were straight.
I did recommend a friend to use new lifters when installing a used sporty cam. But he just used the existing followers of the cam he replaced. That’s clearly a no go.
That's where the old solid lifter VW liquid cooled engines were fun, just change the shim for a new one that's on top of the "bucket"
Ohc so it's not really a lifter it's more like a downer 🤣
Hadda set the clearances anyway and a new shim wasn't but a buck or 2.
If he kept the lifters in order ,it's no problem but it sounds like he had em all rolling around loose in a box, so yeah that's no bueno
@0:03 "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted."
very interesting. good info.
Does the amount of crown and taper very by manufacturer and does the two specks need to match?...
I ran into a problem that I have never had before. I am 60 been building engines since I ws 14. I have a 1984 350 Chevy which I put a new cam and lifters in. I adjust the preset and did everything as usual. But this thing just not fire up. Just back fire through th carb. Put another carb on it and same issue
I have checked and rechecked everything.
Cool Beans 😊 shall check yer other vids,,, Fantastic work ya do😊
Are you going to flip the pistons?
Very wise investment in time for sure! Thank you. And I’m smoking my non stinky cigar too! Lol
Does anyone remember in the 90s in any decent "hot rod" shop. We had a catalog that was maroon. They had EVERY factory cam grind listing for OEM. those cams were bulletproof. Maroon cover. Killing me that I can't remember. I never had a problem with any of them. Of course, I haven't built an engine since then either
Also had pistons, rings, whatever else OEM replacement parts
Found it...
Seald Power.
Shit you got me nervous i just put a 305 together( first build for money ) i checked the lifter like you showed us b4 but didn't check the lobes but i marked each lifter, rolled engine over by hand and they all spin. However 2 are slower than the rest but they are not pumped up
C'mon Tony! Can't I just slap a straight edge on the lobes and lifters and eyeball it? Then after that just use a half round or flat file to make it tapered? I'm guessing NO....
Just in time Tony,Im ready to build a motor for my gasser (59 Hillman Husky w/sbc )and dont want to spend the money for a roller...So is Elgin your go to cam company? Do you use there lifters too? I ordered your stickers to go on the car...thanks
Experience is what you get when you expected something else! 😁
You really need a high grade granite surface plate for measuring your lobes and lifters. You can buy them pretty damned cheaply today, so no excuses.
You also need a dial bore gage (again, you can get them pretty cheap today, just do your research before buying), make sure your lifter bores are correct for a flat tappet lifter. If the bore is too loose, even though your lifter may have the correct crown, and your cam lobes may have the correct tapper, that lifter flopping around in that loose bore will also eat your camshaft lobes in short order!
Get a set of decent micrometers so you can take "true" measurements of your main and rod surfaces on your crankshaft, then use your bore gage to check your bearing clearances on your rods and main caps before assembly.
Don't forget feeler gauges so you can check your piston ring end gap. Also check your ring groves and rings for proper clearance.
A few hundred dollars now can save you several thousand dollars later. Just remember, if you are the one building the engine, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure everything is correct before assembly.
Uncle Tony is trying to appeal to the low-lifes of the hobby with zero money and zero tools. That is where his views come from. Measuring correctly with a surface plate and vee blocks or even a micrometer, would upset his subscriber base because they are predominately cheap skates with a Harbor Freight mentality. You (we) are just wasting our time telling how to measure the accurate way. At least here we are. ---Doozer
So why doesn't scoring look like cross hatching, instead of ONLY going strait up and down?
In OHC bucket applications, anyway.
It's funny the time it takes to check the cam & lifters is the time it takes to break them in .
If I ever install a new cam again I will also measure the lobe lifts to verify it is close to what I ordered....
My sensei use to say YOU NEVER LEARN ANYTHING WITHOUT PAIN- 1st professional fight Loss split decision after fight severe swelling in legs for 2 months next fight understood from pain I must block low kick with shin and then kickback immediately and opponent can't block this recovery.
👍
yes valves also spin, some engineers just cut them lol