LMAO Goose really showcased my run with the bleep you Goose quote. Too funny. Emotions were high for sure, but I'm glad we can all move past this situation like adults taking in the good with the bad.
@@whatismyname6086 - Definitely agree with that - Unfortunately aside from the warp they are taking the sub optimal OG Mainline still - Ace did refine the strategy on SA which was out there for the finding and no one has quite run his strat quite yet with the new warp - Sure you'll end up seeing 37/38 in the future for the WR
@@GamerFolklore well if you discover something you choose who you will tell too. It's like discovering that a friend of yours is cheating his/her husband/wife. You choose if you will tell him/her, your friends in common, your not in common friends, or his/her husband/wife, or none of them.
@@Nakata2021 Sure, but in the speedrunning community it is customary that you share your strats after having used them yourself, so that they can be even further improved by others and thus keep the interest and competition going.
They are so bored and do not know what to do with their lives that even that, NOTHING, worries them... and it is that everything is based only on this of speedruns.
I only recently discovered your channel Goose, and i'm blown away by the dedication, focus and professionalism in putting these videos together for the wider community. Like a lot of people, I grew up playing Goldeneye, and whilst I was in the elite group amongst my friends, it's very nice to see that people who had more time than me took it to a completely new level. Kudos to the community, and double so for you, Goose, for bringing this to us.
There's something very poetic about someone entirely disconnected from the larger community discovering this strat on their own and just uploading it to their TH-cam channel being the first public footage of the strat and by serendipity someone else from the community sharing it for all to see. I don't think what WhiteTed did was malicious by any means, at least from what I can tell, I'm not sure what most people would if in that same position of having this 'secret' knowledge that the rest of the community is unaware of.
I'm sure I know what most people would do. This situation happens a lot in speedrunning communities and the person who discovered the skip always does the right thing. It's a real scumbag move to keep things like that secret.
@@m.streicher8286 At the end of the day, all of this drama is about a niche hobby about playing a video game fast. It's not worth getting in a tizzy over it.
@@MrTheMasterX while I do understand where you are coming from, there is a nostalgic childlike wonder to the world when this is something you can worry about. It’s nice to worry about small things like this as opposed to reserving that worry for things of actual consequence.
That's kinda why I don't get why this hoarding was controversial. It should be LESS controversial, really, since for once people spoiled the hoard and claimed the record for themselves.
@@orangeapples That perspective is the embodiment of the "first-world problems" meme from way back. People shouldn't be so serious over something so trivial, lest without being called sheltered/coddled.
A very similar story for Super Metroid back in 2014. WR holder Zoast spent many months grinding to get :28 igt. In the meantime, a few guys were working independently developing an entirely new route, a hybrid of previous TAS and RTA strategies combined with some new insights. Zoast finally achieved the :28 igt, an RTA time of 44:08. It was a massive achievement for a still relatively small community. Two days later, Behemoth, a long-time runner who did not have streaming capabilities and had always simply dropped his videos on TH-cam, posted a 43:48. At the time, people were (naively, in hindsight) questioning whether a 43:5X was even possible, and then this video just gut punches the entire community. Suddenly, the route that people had spent months and years learning was not only obsolete, but replaced with a route requiring a level of precision magnitudes higher than the previous route just to simply finish a run. Some people were in denial, some were angry, some were just disheartened that the work of the streaming community had been nullified by a few long time runners who operated on outdated message boards. These runners took a lot of heat and heard a lot of crap in the aftermath, but many years later, I can tell you that attitudes changed reasonably quickly, that the community was reinvigorated. People started hunting for new strats and investigating the repurposing of old or abandoned strats. The skill level of not just the top runners, but a vast number of runners, increased exponentially, simply by necessity. Soon enough, the bar for entry that had once seemed so high was being attained by new runners who simply didn’t know that they shouldn’t be that capable so quickly. It gave life to a game that was on the brink of seemingly being solved. Behemoth, Smokey, and Reeve didn’t just gain vindication, but also a lot of admiration and respect. Behemoth, in particular, a WR holder long before the new route would raise his profile, marched forward with several more records and innovations, and has served as a dual figurehead and respected representative of the community along with Zoast. I feel very fortunate to have been involved in the scene at such an interesting time. It’s one of the great speed run dramas that has been relegated to somewhat of an afterthought, but it shaped the approach to the game from that day forward, and served almost as a catalyst for inspiration and innovation within the community. EDIT: hoarding is fine imo. Whoever has the strat is the gatekeeper to the knowledge until that knowledge is revealed at large. Most people wouldn’t post on a public forum if they had an idea for a great invention. They’d work in secret, whether alone or with support, to actually turn the idea into reality and to be the one who initially benefits from their contribution. The same applies here
@@GamerFolklore yes that’s correct, his igt was slower. Good recall. And yes, there was a decent amount of controversy, and even more below the surface of the “Twitch before discord” era, using Skype and irc to communicate, but in much lower volume. Thank you for the response, and for the always enjoyable content. Keep up the great work and best of luck on continued success!
As a matter of fact, you’ve got a close source in TrueFaith who could probably elaborate further. I should also mention that there was actually a different route being formulated in secret by another small group that was faster than the existing route but slower than the new route introduced by Behemoth, but it wasn’t done in time to arrive before Behemoth’s WR.
Hoarding is one of those things that just isn't going to have one answer. There's obvious downsides, in that people could get mad that you're sitting on WRs while they're grinding at false goals, and people could be excited to see new records and strats coming out all at once. In a game as old and optimized as Goldeneye, sitting on a massively game breaking strat, however, is more likely going to be seen as cheating the community out of a lot of time and effort rather than be celebrated. I think the point of a hoard is that when people see it, the community is supposed to feel excited to see a lot of new high-level play and maybe some strat optimizations or new routes to try - they are supposed to feel that they've gained something. If, instead, they see just a completely new strat that gives and easy record, they may feel you have KEPT something from them, rather than GIVEN them something to be excited about. It's worse when, like this example, the hoard gets compromised and everyone just unceremoniously unloads a bunch of WRs without any of the fanfare of the unhoarding in the first place.
@Super Mario what? That is exactly the olympics. There are practically rules around what underwear you can wear as a competitor to keep everything fair. I get your logic, and i agree with you, but the olympics is a terrible example
@RaniaIsAwesome Entitled: believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. Wouldn't the one hoarding the information be the entitled one? The one believing they deserve the thing all to themselves and carrying it to their grave? Since if everyone else believes they all deserve it then it can't be entitlement as it is the norm. Privileges and special treatment is being exempt from the norm... which is what hoarding new strats is. They are part of a community and to be part of it means giving up some things fairly as speed running is based on fair connections. This is why rules and categories exist.
@Super Mario I don't normally engage with people who flip me off in response to my thoughtful comments, but this is just dumb enough that I feel it should be addressed. Speedrunning only exists at these incredibly high levels of optimization and performance because people share strats with one another as part of a community. Goose actually has another video where he mentions a runner from the Goldeneye community who actively doesn't watch any other speedrunners because he wants to do it all by himself, using only his own strats. While that's a perfectly valid way to speedrun, his times, his abilities, and his strats are nowhere near the top of the boards strictly BECAUSE he refuses to engage in open communication about the strats. This communication is, without exception or argument, the way in which speed games evolve. If you think of speedrunning, instead, as a purely competitive endeavor in which nobody should ever share their strats, that actually is how you "ruin" speedrunning, as you say. Now, does that mean ALL strats MUST be shared IMMEDIATELY with EVERYONE?? No, obviously not. There's no rules to how anyone should enjoy and pursue a hobby. However, as Goose also pointed out, watching a fellow community member struggle for days or months to achieve something, just to pop in after and say "actually I knew the whole time your struggle was pointless because I developed this new strat months ago" is what we call a "dick move". A rugged individualist like you, who only knows how to type in bullet points and middle finger emojis probably won't understand the value of community, and may even take pride in being called a dick, but hopefully other, more thoughtful readers will understand my response here.
@RaniaIsAwesome What we owe one another is a deeply philosophical concept about morality and community that only exists as part of human society. It's not a strictly obligatory idea based exclusively on entitlement, but rather on a shared belief about what is acceptable behavior within a community and how the actions of oneself will be perceived as either negative or positive by and for that community. There's no hard and fast rules to be referenced here, as is always the case in philosophy, that shouldn't default the discussion to the position of nobody owes anyone anything, because that's simply not how we act in real situations. For example, if my elderly neighbor asks me to mow her lawn because she can't get anyone else to help her with it (covid has been rough in my neighborhood), I COULD say "I don't owe you anything, you're not entitled to my labor" and send her off without help. However, by doing so, I'm also exercising myself from that shared community between us, because no longer will their be a bond of trust, reliability, or willingness to help one another. The same can be said of hoarding speed strats, knowingly and intentionally, while watching members of the community struggle fruitlessly at now defunct goals. It's not that the community is *entitled* to your strats, but if you wish to maintain trust and standing within that community, then a moral obligation is, in fact, formed for you to share those strats in a timely manner. At this point, I would ask you to re-read my original comment and understand that it says nothing about entitlement, and is instead just a brief overview of the pitfalls and potential upsides to hoarding.
Hey Mr. White. I wanted to say a big "Thank You" to you for keeping to upload quality and entertaining content. I suffer from chronic pain, chronic depression, and chronic anxiety and haven't been able to find work in over a year. Every time I start feeling hopeless and cry, your videos cheer me up. Thank you sir.
It reminds me of when Dave Clemons thought of the “machine gun shimmy” on Aztec, during Illu’s stream. If you come up with the idea but someone else gets the record, I imagine you’d be annoyed but then again, you’ve probably benefitted from other peoples ‘ideas’ over the years too. Great video
There's a difference between helping out another runner in a public setting and giving them several months head start. Frankly, I'm surprised (and somewhat disgusted) that there are cases of nepotism in speedrunning, let alone those approved by the general public.
I say they found it, it's their decision what they want to do with it. If others are upset about it, then they should have found the strategy out themselves. It's a competition, not a handout. I think it's clever to have a group of people drop new world records at the same time together. It keeps the community spicy
Yeah like I said just be grateful you even get documentation some games don't. All speedrunning strats are hoarding anyway. You need to join a community to learn. This may be a forum if you are lucky or might need to message players. Or just watch videos and try to work it out.
I watch these speed run record braking videos now and then, and I can tell you that I also don't see anything wrong with keeping your strategy secret. Because if you want to hold the record, eventually, you will have to reveal your secrets. I also think that if you did the research and found something new, you can share it with whoever you want.
I can understand hoarding a new strategy to claim the record for yourself first, but handing out to a small selection of the community, and for months at that is really sketchy imo. I tend to view this more as an us vs the game type thing where as a community you try to bring the times down as far as possible, and hoarding times/routes goes against that.
@@klooger28 the perspective of a community effort to bring the times down is nice and all, but ultimately the point is competition, the prestige of being the fastest, or being one of the fastest. People don't grind for and pop off on PB's because they further beat the game, but because it's a show of skill and refinement. I think the perspective of a community effort to bring down the time is only practical in theorycrafting and TAS's, and is better served for the spectators, rather than the comptetiors.
Being around to see this unfold was one of the craziest things I've ever experienced. Much respect to all those involved, past, present and future; whether it be as a runner, a viewer or just a simple enthusiast, having people to share stuff like this with makes it all the more worth it. I'm very exited to see where Bunker 2, and goldeneye in general will go from here. Here's to a continued bright future for goldeneye and The-Elite!
I havent played GoldenEye since I was a kid, I sold my N64 years ago to make rent and I highly regret it. I love watching your videos Goose. I hope you know that most people who watch you don't even care about 007, the content is just so wholesome and awesome. Thank you for introducing us to people who are in this world and find it absolutely fascinating. and remember MY FRIENDS. You are all WR holders in my eyes.
Great video! I'm fine with a single person hoarding a strat they found until they have practiced it, but it feels a bit cliquey to do something like this and "pick and choosing" who got to know. Hope there are more records get broken, however.
They are free to do with what they want. Also, all speedrunning strats are hoarding within a clique. It ain't easy to search for how to do strats. So yea there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe you get lucky with a community/clique, hopefully, the players put up strats. Many games people don't.
I have to agree with op ... single player strat hoarding is more understandable than a group or cult hoard. No it's not against the rules but it's kind of a scummy thing to do when people were running the old strat for months they won't get back of there life... then again they could have been researching the game to the dark corners of the internet and found the acadi video but they were too busy doing things the old way to be bothered
@@Liberty-Jamie I feel like people shouldn't be able to get a 3-second untied primarily through nepotism. It's hard to argue that, if the knowledge was released simultaneously, Calle would have gotten off his 20-second time before someone else got a 22 (we know exactly how long it took Irie to get a 21), and the main advantage he had was through being friends with someone (i.e. nepotism).
I can't see the controversy. If I discover a new strategy I own it until I make it public. Of course I can't claim any records without showing footage, but if I want to hold it forever there's nothing stopping me and nothing should stop me. People should thank me for discovering a new strategy and sharing it and not demanding it to be shared, because nothing is stopping everyone else from discovering it as well. Amazing video!
If I found a company I own it, and there's nothing stopping me from hiring my idiotic friends to manage the company. People should be thanking me for making the company, after all, and there's nothing stopping them from making their own. Just a friendly reminder that if my example is nepotism, then this one is too.
If I found a cure for cancer and waited till I had cancer to reveal it people should thank me. Yes I know I cost people 1,000s of hours of things lost that can never be returned... but I came up with the cure. You should be thanking me.
A little late now, but the Bunker 2 TAS at 4:30 was done by Simon Sternis, not Henrik. Also, Dusky wasn't really the one that found Acadie's runs. A user named Onslatt posted Acadie's Depot A run in the emulator speedrun Discord and asked how he was able to warp the door at 60 FPS using an R-lean. Dusky then saw that video and started asking the console runners about it.
This kind of question comes up with any new idea. I know people want a 100% equal playing field, but at the same time, if you figure out something someone else didnt, you should be able to use that to your advantage. It was going to be leaked sooner or later when they actually wanted to make their scores legit & everyone got to see how they did it. Props to Acadie for a major discovery, even if they didnt know what they did. Great video Goose.
There should've probably been another poll asking "do you agree with sharing game-breaking strategies with only selected few". That's probably more unanimous. Not that it really matters though.
it's wild that even after a bajillion years (or however long it's been) that goldeneye has been out, there are still crazy things like this being discovered. nice video, as usual.
One of the things I love about Goldeneye, and TimeSplitters for that matter, is that the games are packed full of action without needing the use of a jump button.
I think it's fair because everyone had the opportunity to discover the trick. Speedrunning is not all about trying to do something with perfect execution it's also about figuring out the optimal route to do so or to find a route with a reasonable chance of success. If you are grinding a bad route that's on you.
Yep, if you put in the R&D yourself you're entitled to keep your discovered strats a secret right up until you want to post your runs for verification. If other runners are bothered that they can't swoop in and use someone else's strat to bag a cheap WR, who cares. They should have done the research themselves.
This is people with power (knowledge of powerful strategies that are capable of getting a 3 second untied) giving an advantage to friends (by giving them a substantial head start). This is literally nepotism; they aren't literally giving them a world record, but they are effectively doing so. I wouldn't mind if WhiteTed got the run and then released the strategy (he can use his tools really well), but in this case Calle W got his world record solely by being a good player (of which there are plenty) who just so happened to have the insane meta-strategy of being friends with some dude.
Everytime I click on one of Goose's videos I'm wondering "does it keep happening?" I'm always excited to hear that it does indeed "just keep happening"
I can understand the excitement that comes with revealing a hoard. Though, hoarding is also at odds with what a world ranking page's job is. If records are being hoarded and you can't know what the *real* records are, why even play the game?
i agree with you 100% i think it should be a very frowned upon thing, why even keep the records for yourself, it shouldnt be a selfish competition but a collective community efforts
Yea last I checked, spoiled little kids only remedy is taking their toys away. Do we *really* need to do that? Because its literally the next step, and China already has 1 foot through the door in that regard.
My competitive edge is my competitive edge. If I've got an untied, but I think I can make it an untied by 2 seconds if I keep grinding at it you're really going to try and give me a hard time? I am under no obligation to let the leaderboard know my times. You are also assuming that I believe and respect that leaderboard to be the authority on WRs.
@@wireycoyote3544 wtf is the point your comment is even trying to portray? Like I’m not agreeing or disagreeing but I really don’t understand what you are trying to mean.
Aww man, if you ended the video with a "I got 19" just to troll and cap off the story (obviously revealing shortly thereafter), that would have sent this video truly OTT. Great vid as always Mr Goose, thanks for the news!
Though this may dampen the hype a bit, I think hoarders should reveal which levels they've beaten the moment they beat them and keep the hoard name and release date public, but of course not post any times or video. That way, people know not to run those levels until the hoard is revealed. This also creates suspense and anticipation instead of surprise and possible resentment, as people are now anxiously waiting for the hoard's epic new times to drop instead of just waking up one day and realising hours of grinding was for nothing.
I know it's seems kind of scummy letting others waste their time knowing they could be doing their runs more efficiently but it's much like any other competition. If you have a new strategy/time save you aren't bound by anything other than your own morals and judgement to disclose it to the whole community.
I don't think anyone is questioning about them not disclosing the new strat, I think the question is about him setting a world record and NOT submitting it. He set a world record and sat on it for like weeks. That's the questionable part.
But you're part of a community, speed running only functions as a community. In other words for what you have to have value means you need to respect others in the community. If you do anything disrespectful (Letting only some people know a strat.) you are dividing the community.
this comment is a bit strange to me. nobody is suggesting they should be bound to do anything, and people are precisely criticizing their morals and judgment wrt how their failure to disclose the strategies served to fracture the community. I don't want to dig too deep here, but Goldeneye already has a certain reputation within the speedgaming community at large, and events like this unfortunately reinforce some of the negative stereotypes. the GE community either cares about that, or it doesn't.
@@thomasmathew13 No, I don't think that's the issue. Remember, hoards aren't exactly unknown in Goldeneye speedrunning. Sitting on a WR is fine, it's recruiting select individuals to share this new knowledge with that was problematic. Whiteted was essentially deciding who would have the opportunity to set a new untied world record. It'd be fine if he kept it to himself, got the records and then released it when he was ready.
started speed running GE 2 days ago and already got my self 3 decent times and smashed my PB twice. Used to watch this channel a while back, now im here for the tech
It makes sense to keep the hoard project secret (that's the point), and it's not unfair. Sitting on new strats, the hoarders run the risk of an outsider independently discovering the strats and spoiling everything, but that's just part of the game. It would only be unfair if the hoarders were able to somehow influence the speedrunning public into not being able to find the strat themselves.
Bang on - when Dusky found Acadie's vid and we had to reveal our times early, a few people were commiserating us but we were fine about it. As I put it at the time - "live by the sword, die by the sword". When the discovery of it was unfolding in the-elite discord we just watched and waited.. and scrambled to get ready for when we'd have to post our times. We were never going to try and stop them finding it.
I'm not in the scene, I just love to watch it. Speed running is sick. That said, I cant help but think of a video you made a while ago about the absolute limits and whether or not it was possible to go any lower. Well, new strats were found. Why are you obligated to tell the community right off? They'll see em, and copy em, eventually. Isnt that normal? Either way, good stuff Goose. Thank you.
Hated the slap on agent so gave up on that quite early. Needless to say I'm quite pleased with this new strat. So much so that it got me back into the game and finally forced me to fix my controller situation. Since learning the strat I got 24 and am hoping for 23 in the near future.
Great video, but at 5:13, there’s some more to the story: Us XBLA runners were brainstorming ideas for Streets 1:10 in the discord server. One runner, Raskeshades, shared a video of a Streets 1:10 on emulator, from Acadie. Some runners went to his channel page, and found the runs of Depot 23 and Bunker 2 22 (another R-leaning run on Bunker 2). Either someone shared that run with Dusky, who found Bunker 2 20 and shared it with the-elite, or someone found Bunker 2 20, shared it with Dusky, who then shared it again with the-elite. Source: xbla discord server
So, Goose, I have a question. We've heard stories about speedrunners becoming degen for sinking so much time into a game, such as Mark's Dishes. But, as you said before, compared to a lot of stuff we see today, that was pretty tame. My question for you: has there been a case of a "Moby Dick" record in the Elite, or other Speed communities you frequent? A single record that a person or group obsessed over so much to the point that it was detrimental to thier health, or thier relationships? Have any Eliters chased thier own White Whale? If so, I think it'd be a good video topic. With permissions from the example runners, of course.
I have to agree that recruiting a few select people to share some new, game-breaking secret with is ... questionable, at best. However, I can absolutely understand how it might have happened -- as you mentioned in the video, hoards have not only happened before, but have been met with celebration when they're revealed. I could see how Whiteted and the people he recruited could rationalize what they were doing based on those previous hoards being revealed, and not fully considering how different their situation was. There is a difference between truly mastering a popular strategy and achieving new records, and finding a new strategy that makes the old one obsolete and only sharing it with a few, effectively trying to determine who gets to hold a new untied WR. I think they were wrong to do it, but I certainly don't think that means they should be ostracized or exiled. I think this should serve as a learning moment for the community, ESPECIALLY since the community as a whole was lucky enough to have someone else figure out the new strategy and publicizing it, essentially mitigating the damage that the first group MIGHT have caused. I'm sure they thought their decision would be accepted and understood by the community, and they were wrong, but they were saved by someone else finding it. Now they, and everyone else in the speedrunning (at least Goldeneye speedrunning) community knows that this sort of behaviour is seen as wrong. In short: Whiteted & co were wrong, but not maliciously so. I'm glad there was no punishment or long-term damage done to them, but it should serve as a warning to others -- if you find a new strategy, you either keep it to yourself until you're ready, or you share it with everyone at the same time. No one should get to pick who in the community gets to have an untied world record.
From watching Bond escape the cell without opening the door. It seems to me the main time save is from the guard not kneeling to save "stop or I'll shoot" and therefore not waiting for him to stand up to get his key from him.
People who complain about hiding strats are crybabies. Last time I checked speedrunning is a competition so why would you give up an information advantage. The record hoarding was even done in good spirit so give the community a spectacle when it drops.
You can actually get Bunker 2 Agent in 19 seconds if you use a new strategy I found called “subtract 1 minute”. So if you do it slowly and it takes 1:19, then you subtract 1 minute to get 0:19, and then BOOM you’ve got a new world record. Hope you like my new strat
Pretty good example of 'but it's not technically against the rules' not being a good excuse for being scummy. You guys can tell me it's a competition all you want, but I remember playing MtG with people that would constantly do things like drop their cards, move things around on the table, obscure your vision in anyway they could, get their friends to distract you... I'm pretty certain they were probably just outright cheating as well but these kinds of tactics while technically not against any rules are definitely not going to make people around you happy that you showed up (or even exist at all.)
It doesn't surprise me that some people were upset but I mean he found the technique by browsing youtube videos so it technically wasn't a secret. Plus the fact that other people figured it out while they were keeping it a secret makes it def all fair game to me. Even if they didn't figure it out, still ok in my eyes. No one has to tell anyone anything.
I noticed a lot of Defenders are comparing it to "The person who found it should be able to set their world record." but they are forgetting... it wasn't just the founder who had the information. They gave that information to their competition selectively. This is actually pretty rule breaking and you can be banned in a lot of games. You are actively collaborating with your enemies, invalidating the personal use of information. You are choosing people to win and people to lose. The information is no longer personal and it becomes questionable intent among the entire group. At that point you're no longer hoarding, you're literally dividing the community. If a person were to get a new strat, submits it as part of the hoard, and no one employs the strat during the hoard aside from the one who found it then it is fair. The second other people start doing it the community becomes divided and it is an advantage that you did not earn or one you no longer have exclusive rights too having given it up.
Damn! Can't believe my childhood friend Acadie found this strat! I remember the good old days of our attempt at speedrunning in my room, feels like yesterday!
It’s crazy that this exploit was there for the taking and so easy to do yet nobody bothered to route it. That’s on everybody at this point after so many years.
Personally I think the guys that found it independently had every right to keep it to themselves till they got their records, it is weird to bring only certain people in on it but in the end anyone else could have found the strat (and they did eventually), also anyone mad about not being able to get a new record at 22 or 21 as if they were entitled to it is just being ridiculous
My perspective as a complete outsider: I think people were getting fomo on the "gold rush". It seems like an exciting time for those groups, and limiting it to a clique is an interesting choice sure to ruffle some feathers. I think the guy who figured it out should have pushed it down 1 or 2 seconds, maybe told his best friend, then let it loose. With that said, I agree there is nothing entitling anyone to anything. I just think that's the best way to please as many people as possible. I would say, it's 100% not a good idea to divide a small community with clique behavior.
I don't think there is anything wrong with hording game breaking strats. Some might view it kinda scummy, but in a competition I think it is completely understandable to want to have that extra edge. It rewards people who are able to find these new techniques that add so much to speedrunning. That being said, I would feel left out if I wasn't in on the know when others I knew were.
I wonder if Acadie is now more involved with The-Elite after so much attraction to his channel, or if he's still grinding away on his own, playing on the EMU
Hadn't paid this much mind when it first happened, but it's really funny watching this again cause this same exact thing happened in the oot community last month. Funny to see how different communities view hoarding strats like this
LMAO Goose really showcased my run with the bleep you Goose quote. Too funny. Emotions were high for sure, but I'm glad we can all move past this situation like adults taking in the good with the bad.
Gotta cuss him out every record apparently it will give you a highlight every time hahaha
@@TheSteelKlown lolol
Let Flygons be Flygons
LOL I was going to comment the same thing Irie!
Congrats sir
This is a testament to Ace's ability: even with a new strategy, 3 seconds faster, people can only tie his two year old record.
Give it time it will happen
@@whatismyname6086 - Definitely agree with that - Unfortunately aside from the warp they are taking the sub optimal OG Mainline still - Ace did refine the strategy on SA which was out there for the finding and no one has quite run his strat quite yet with the new warp - Sure you'll end up seeing 37/38 in the future for the WR
Acadie has now entered the depths of Goldeneye lore, I love it.
I feel like if I discovered a new strategy I would definitely want to claim an untied for myself before revealing it.
Thats....kindof immature 😐
@@wireycoyote3544 if you discover an amazing strat you deserve the record lets be honest lol
I think that's fair, you earned it, I think it should be shared after you make your name tho
@@GamerFolklore well if you discover something you choose who you will tell too. It's like discovering that a friend of yours is cheating his/her husband/wife. You choose if you will tell him/her, your friends in common, your not in common friends, or his/her husband/wife, or none of them.
@@Nakata2021 Sure, but in the speedrunning community it is customary that you share your strats after having used them yourself, so that they can be even further improved by others and thus keep the interest and competition going.
I love speedrunning drama for absolutely no reason
They are so bored and do not know what to do with their lives that even that, NOTHING, worries them... and it is that everything is based only on this of speedruns.
Goose himself isn't that drama free...
I don't even game yet 👀
@@erik3371 what do you mean?
@@GamerFolklore oh man so much drama i was worried your channel would not survive!
I only recently discovered your channel Goose, and i'm blown away by the dedication, focus and professionalism in putting these videos together for the wider community. Like a lot of people, I grew up playing Goldeneye, and whilst I was in the elite group amongst my friends, it's very nice to see that people who had more time than me took it to a completely new level. Kudos to the community, and double so for you, Goose, for bringing this to us.
Welcome and enjoy!
There's something very poetic about someone entirely disconnected from the larger community discovering this strat on their own and just uploading it to their TH-cam channel being the first public footage of the strat and by serendipity someone else from the community sharing it for all to see. I don't think what WhiteTed did was malicious by any means, at least from what I can tell, I'm not sure what most people would if in that same position of having this 'secret' knowledge that the rest of the community is unaware of.
I'm sure I know what most people would do. This situation happens a lot in speedrunning communities and the person who discovered the skip always does the right thing.
It's a real scumbag move to keep things like that secret.
@@m.streicher8286 At the end of the day, all of this drama is about a niche hobby about playing a video game fast. It's not worth getting in a tizzy over it.
@@MrTheMasterX while I do understand where you are coming from, there is a nostalgic childlike wonder to the world when this is something you can worry about. It’s nice to worry about small things like this as opposed to reserving that worry for things of actual consequence.
That's kinda why I don't get why this hoarding was controversial. It should be LESS controversial, really, since for once people spoiled the hoard and claimed the record for themselves.
@@orangeapples That perspective is the embodiment of the "first-world problems" meme from way back. People shouldn't be so serious over something so trivial, lest without being called sheltered/coddled.
On a (funny) sidenote: Imagine being the guard guarding Bond while he just fuckin phases through the jail door
😂😂😂
I can’t help but think of the scene from Terminator 2 where Robert Patrick does that haha. He definitely didn’t pause.
Inner monologue: Nope didn’t see anything, nope didn’t see anything Carl. Cmon man you got kids you’ll get a drug test. Just keep walking.
I now hear "IT JUST KEEPS HAPPENING" on repeat in my head over a sick beat... thanks TASpap!
And thanks to Pogo - you can find his original edit which we worked off of here: th-cam.com/video/rGU4J6ibcLA/w-d-xo.html
A very similar story for Super Metroid back in 2014. WR holder Zoast spent many months grinding to get :28 igt. In the meantime, a few guys were working independently developing an entirely new route, a hybrid of previous TAS and RTA strategies combined with some new insights. Zoast finally achieved the :28 igt, an RTA time of 44:08. It was a massive achievement for a still relatively small community. Two days later, Behemoth, a long-time runner who did not have streaming capabilities and had always simply dropped his videos on TH-cam, posted a 43:48. At the time, people were (naively, in hindsight) questioning whether a 43:5X was even possible, and then this video just gut punches the entire community. Suddenly, the route that people had spent months and years learning was not only obsolete, but replaced with a route requiring a level of precision magnitudes higher than the previous route just to simply finish a run. Some people were in denial, some were angry, some were just disheartened that the work of the streaming community had been nullified by a few long time runners who operated on outdated message boards. These runners took a lot of heat and heard a lot of crap in the aftermath, but many years later, I can tell you that attitudes changed reasonably quickly, that the community was reinvigorated. People started hunting for new strats and investigating the repurposing of old or abandoned strats. The skill level of not just the top runners, but a vast number of runners, increased exponentially, simply by necessity. Soon enough, the bar for entry that had once seemed so high was being attained by new runners who simply didn’t know that they shouldn’t be that capable so quickly. It gave life to a game that was on the brink of seemingly being solved. Behemoth, Smokey, and Reeve didn’t just gain vindication, but also a lot of admiration and respect. Behemoth, in particular, a WR holder long before the new route would raise his profile, marched forward with several more records and innovations, and has served as a dual figurehead and respected representative of the community along with Zoast. I feel very fortunate to have been involved in the scene at such an interesting time. It’s one of the great speed run dramas that has been relegated to somewhat of an afterthought, but it shaped the approach to the game from that day forward, and served almost as a catalyst for inspiration and innovation within the community.
EDIT: hoarding is fine imo. Whoever has the strat is the gatekeeper to the knowledge until that knowledge is revealed at large. Most people wouldn’t post on a public forum if they had an idea for a great invention. They’d work in secret, whether alone or with support, to actually turn the idea into reality and to be the one who initially benefits from their contribution. The same applies here
@@GamerFolklore yes that’s correct, his igt was slower. Good recall. And yes, there was a decent amount of controversy, and even more below the surface of the “Twitch before discord” era, using Skype and irc to communicate, but in much lower volume. Thank you for the response, and for the always enjoyable content. Keep up the great work and best of luck on continued success!
As a matter of fact, you’ve got a close source in TrueFaith who could probably elaborate further. I should also mention that there was actually a different route being formulated in secret by another small group that was faster than the existing route but slower than the new route introduced by Behemoth, but it wasn’t done in time to arrive before Behemoth’s WR.
IT JUST
KEEPS
HAPPENING
Those words always means we got a great video in our hands.
Fact
Absolutely!!
Hoarding is one of those things that just isn't going to have one answer. There's obvious downsides, in that people could get mad that you're sitting on WRs while they're grinding at false goals, and people could be excited to see new records and strats coming out all at once. In a game as old and optimized as Goldeneye, sitting on a massively game breaking strat, however, is more likely going to be seen as cheating the community out of a lot of time and effort rather than be celebrated. I think the point of a hoard is that when people see it, the community is supposed to feel excited to see a lot of new high-level play and maybe some strat optimizations or new routes to try - they are supposed to feel that they've gained something. If, instead, they see just a completely new strat that gives and easy record, they may feel you have KEPT something from them, rather than GIVEN them something to be excited about. It's worse when, like this example, the hoard gets compromised and everyone just unceremoniously unloads a bunch of WRs without any of the fanfare of the unhoarding in the first place.
@Super Mario what? That is exactly the olympics. There are practically rules around what underwear you can wear as a competitor to keep everything fair. I get your logic, and i agree with you, but the olympics is a terrible example
@RaniaIsAwesome Entitled: believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
Wouldn't the one hoarding the information be the entitled one? The one believing they deserve the thing all to themselves and carrying it to their grave? Since if everyone else believes they all deserve it then it can't be entitlement as it is the norm.
Privileges and special treatment is being exempt from the norm... which is what hoarding new strats is. They are part of a community and to be part of it means giving up some things fairly as speed running is based on fair connections. This is why rules and categories exist.
Well spoken.
@Super Mario I don't normally engage with people who flip me off in response to my thoughtful comments, but this is just dumb enough that I feel it should be addressed. Speedrunning only exists at these incredibly high levels of optimization and performance because people share strats with one another as part of a community. Goose actually has another video where he mentions a runner from the Goldeneye community who actively doesn't watch any other speedrunners because he wants to do it all by himself, using only his own strats. While that's a perfectly valid way to speedrun, his times, his abilities, and his strats are nowhere near the top of the boards strictly BECAUSE he refuses to engage in open communication about the strats. This communication is, without exception or argument, the way in which speed games evolve. If you think of speedrunning, instead, as a purely competitive endeavor in which nobody should ever share their strats, that actually is how you "ruin" speedrunning, as you say. Now, does that mean ALL strats MUST be shared IMMEDIATELY with EVERYONE?? No, obviously not. There's no rules to how anyone should enjoy and pursue a hobby. However, as Goose also pointed out, watching a fellow community member struggle for days or months to achieve something, just to pop in after and say "actually I knew the whole time your struggle was pointless because I developed this new strat months ago" is what we call a "dick move". A rugged individualist like you, who only knows how to type in bullet points and middle finger emojis probably won't understand the value of community, and may even take pride in being called a dick, but hopefully other, more thoughtful readers will understand my response here.
@RaniaIsAwesome What we owe one another is a deeply philosophical concept about morality and community that only exists as part of human society. It's not a strictly obligatory idea based exclusively on entitlement, but rather on a shared belief about what is acceptable behavior within a community and how the actions of oneself will be perceived as either negative or positive by and for that community. There's no hard and fast rules to be referenced here, as is always the case in philosophy, that shouldn't default the discussion to the position of nobody owes anyone anything, because that's simply not how we act in real situations. For example, if my elderly neighbor asks me to mow her lawn because she can't get anyone else to help her with it (covid has been rough in my neighborhood), I COULD say "I don't owe you anything, you're not entitled to my labor" and send her off without help. However, by doing so, I'm also exercising myself from that shared community between us, because no longer will their be a bond of trust, reliability, or willingness to help one another. The same can be said of hoarding speed strats, knowingly and intentionally, while watching members of the community struggle fruitlessly at now defunct goals. It's not that the community is *entitled* to your strats, but if you wish to maintain trust and standing within that community, then a moral obligation is, in fact, formed for you to share those strats in a timely manner. At this point, I would ask you to re-read my original comment and understand that it says nothing about entitlement, and is instead just a brief overview of the pitfalls and potential upsides to hoarding.
Hey Mr. White. I wanted to say a big "Thank You" to you for keeping to upload quality and entertaining content. I suffer from chronic pain, chronic depression, and chronic anxiety and haven't been able to find work in over a year. Every time I start feeling hopeless and cry, your videos cheer me up. Thank you sir.
@@GamerFolklore Thank you kind sir, and you as well. ❤
Been 11 months, but just wanted to say I hope you're doing well.
It reminds me of when Dave Clemons thought of the “machine gun shimmy” on Aztec, during Illu’s stream.
If you come up with the idea but someone else gets the record, I imagine you’d be annoyed but then again, you’ve probably benefitted from other peoples ‘ideas’ over the years too.
Great video
There's a difference between helping out another runner in a public setting and giving them several months head start. Frankly, I'm surprised (and somewhat disgusted) that there are cases of nepotism in speedrunning, let alone those approved by the general public.
I say they found it, it's their decision what they want to do with it. If others are upset about it, then they should have found the strategy out themselves. It's a competition, not a handout. I think it's clever to have a group of people drop new world records at the same time together. It keeps the community spicy
Yeah like I said just be grateful you even get documentation some games don't. All speedrunning strats are hoarding anyway. You need to join a community to learn. This may be a forum if you are lucky or might need to message players. Or just watch videos and try to work it out.
I watch these speed run record braking videos now and then, and I can tell you that I also don't see anything wrong with keeping your strategy secret. Because if you want to hold the record, eventually, you will have to reveal your secrets. I also think that if you did the research and found something new, you can share it with whoever you want.
I can understand hoarding a new strategy to claim the record for yourself first, but handing out to a small selection of the community, and for months at that is really sketchy imo.
I tend to view this more as an us vs the game type thing where as a community you try to bring the times down as far as possible, and hoarding times/routes goes against that.
@@klooger28 I can appreciate that side of it as well.
@@klooger28 the perspective of a community effort to bring the times down is nice and all, but ultimately the point is competition, the prestige of being the fastest, or being one of the fastest. People don't grind for and pop off on PB's because they further beat the game, but because it's a show of skill and refinement. I think the perspective of a community effort to bring down the time is only practical in theorycrafting and TAS's, and is better served for the spectators, rather than the comptetiors.
I love how it just keeps happening so I can keep coming back for Goose's videos!
Being around to see this unfold was one of the craziest things I've ever experienced.
Much respect to all those involved, past, present and future; whether it be as a runner, a viewer or just a simple enthusiast, having people to share stuff like this with makes it all the more worth it.
I'm very exited to see where Bunker 2, and goldeneye in general will go from here.
Here's to a continued bright future for goldeneye and The-Elite!
Yeah I find controversial stuff like this, keeps the community alive and engaging
I havent played GoldenEye since I was a kid, I sold my N64 years ago to make rent and I highly regret it. I love watching your videos Goose. I hope you know that most people who watch you don't even care about 007, the content is just so wholesome and awesome. Thank you for introducing us to people who are in this world and find it absolutely fascinating.
and remember MY FRIENDS. You are all WR holders in my eyes.
Great video!
I'm fine with a single person hoarding a strat they found until they have practiced it, but it feels a bit cliquey to do something like this and "pick and choosing" who got to know. Hope there are more records get broken, however.
They are free to do with what they want. Also, all speedrunning strats are hoarding within a clique. It ain't easy to search for how to do strats. So yea there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe you get lucky with a community/clique, hopefully, the players put up strats. Many games people don't.
I have to agree with op ... single player strat hoarding is more understandable than a group or cult hoard. No it's not against the rules but it's kind of a scummy thing to do when people were running the old strat for months they won't get back of there life... then again they could have been researching the game to the dark corners of the internet and found the acadi video but they were too busy doing things the old way to be bothered
@@Liberty-Jamie I feel like people shouldn't be able to get a 3-second untied primarily through nepotism. It's hard to argue that, if the knowledge was released simultaneously, Calle would have gotten off his 20-second time before someone else got a 22 (we know exactly how long it took Irie to get a 21), and the main advantage he had was through being friends with someone (i.e. nepotism).
I can't see the controversy.
If I discover a new strategy I own it until I make it public.
Of course I can't claim any records without showing footage, but if I want to hold it forever there's nothing stopping me and nothing should stop me. People should thank me for discovering a new strategy and sharing it and not demanding it to be shared, because nothing is stopping everyone else from discovering it as well.
Amazing video!
If I found a company I own it, and there's nothing stopping me from hiring my idiotic friends to manage the company. People should be thanking me for making the company, after all, and there's nothing stopping them from making their own.
Just a friendly reminder that if my example is nepotism, then this one is too.
If I found a cure for cancer and waited till I had cancer to reveal it people should thank me.
Yes I know I cost people 1,000s of hours of things lost that can never be returned... but I came up with the cure. You should be thanking me.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 while I do think you and Flotsam have made good points, I think the comparisons are not really fair.
A little late now, but the Bunker 2 TAS at 4:30 was done by Simon Sternis, not Henrik. Also, Dusky wasn't really the one that found Acadie's runs. A user named Onslatt posted Acadie's Depot A run in the emulator speedrun Discord and asked how he was able to warp the door at 60 FPS using an R-lean. Dusky then saw that video and started asking the console runners about it.
14:19 "i mean it would be silly if there were a rule against horading"
mk64 intensifies
The rule against hoarding in MK64 is absolutely right though.
@@RaRa-eu9mw Why do they have that rule? To avoid people grinding for false world records?
@@Bladieblah id say so
This kind of question comes up with any new idea. I know people want a 100% equal playing field, but at the same time, if you figure out something someone else didnt, you should be able to use that to your advantage. It was going to be leaked sooner or later when they actually wanted to make their scores legit & everyone got to see how they did it. Props to Acadie for a major discovery, even if they didnt know what they did. Great video Goose.
There should've probably been another poll asking "do you agree with sharing game-breaking strategies with only selected few". That's probably more unanimous. Not that it really matters though.
Has public domain fire watchtower footage, works public domain fire watchtower footage into story. Pro!
it's wild that even after a bajillion years (or however long it's been) that goldeneye has been out, there are still crazy things like this being discovered. nice video, as usual.
One of the things I love about Goldeneye, and TimeSplitters for that matter, is that the games are packed full of action without needing the use of a jump button.
I think it's fair because everyone had the opportunity to discover the trick. Speedrunning is not all about trying to do something with perfect execution it's also about figuring out the optimal route to do so or to find a route with a reasonable chance of success. If you are grinding a bad route that's on you.
Yep, if you put in the R&D yourself you're entitled to keep your discovered strats a secret right up until you want to post your runs for verification.
If other runners are bothered that they can't swoop in and use someone else's strat to bag a cheap WR, who cares. They should have done the research themselves.
I hope Acadie gets the credits for the strat, he may not be in the community of the-elite but might learn about the fact. Well done lad!
This is people with power (knowledge of powerful strategies that are capable of getting a 3 second untied) giving an advantage to friends (by giving them a substantial head start). This is literally nepotism; they aren't literally giving them a world record, but they are effectively doing so.
I wouldn't mind if WhiteTed got the run and then released the strategy (he can use his tools really well), but in this case Calle W got his world record solely by being a good player (of which there are plenty) who just so happened to have the insane meta-strategy of being friends with some dude.
Everytime I click on one of Goose's videos I'm wondering "does it keep happening?" I'm always excited to hear that it does indeed "just keep happening"
Now this is the content I love, Thankyou for bringing us so much great content over the last many years, legen ❤️
I don't speedrun, nor do I have Goldeneye at the moment. What am I doing here? Just loving Goose and his content. Will buy a N64 very soon.
@@GamerFolklore You're really wishing someone with the name "Wouter" luck?
I have my doubts they're going to need it.
I love how this game is still beloved after so long. Thanks for keeping us updated, bud!
Gosh darnit I love your content Ryan. This stuff is so good and makes my day. Thank you my man.
TruerFaith: YES!
Cat: I want chicken, I want liver.
I can understand the excitement that comes with revealing a hoard.
Though, hoarding is also at odds with what a world ranking page's job is.
If records are being hoarded and you can't know what the *real* records are, why even play the game?
i agree with you 100% i think it should be a very frowned upon thing, why even keep the records for yourself, it shouldnt be a selfish competition but a collective community efforts
Yea last I checked, spoiled little kids only remedy is taking their toys away. Do we *really* need to do that?
Because its literally the next step, and China already has 1 foot through the door in that regard.
As long as they aren't "valid" until the unhoard, then it really doesn't matter. If the dates get applied retroactively then its kinda BS.
My competitive edge is my competitive edge. If I've got an untied, but I think I can make it an untied by 2 seconds if I keep grinding at it you're really going to try and give me a hard time?
I am under no obligation to let the leaderboard know my times. You are also assuming that I believe and respect that leaderboard to be the authority on WRs.
@@wireycoyote3544 wtf is the point your comment is even trying to portray? Like I’m not agreeing or disagreeing but I really don’t understand what you are trying to mean.
The sun rises again in the morning.
Goose: "My friends, it JUST KEEPS HAPPENING."
Passing someone away is probably the best way I have heard someone get around saying the word killing
Aww man, if you ended the video with a "I got 19" just to troll and cap off the story (obviously revealing shortly thereafter), that would have sent this video truly OTT. Great vid as always Mr Goose, thanks for the news!
Though this may dampen the hype a bit, I think hoarders should reveal which levels they've beaten the moment they beat them and keep the hoard name and release date public, but of course not post any times or video. That way, people know not to run those levels until the hoard is revealed. This also creates suspense and anticipation instead of surprise and possible resentment, as people are now anxiously waiting for the hoard's epic new times to drop instead of just waking up one day and realising hours of grinding was for nothing.
This is a very good solution, given that speed running is a community based thing. You can't ignore the very community you're asking to be a part of!
I know it's seems kind of scummy letting others waste their time knowing they could be doing their runs more efficiently but it's much like any other competition. If you have a new strategy/time save you aren't bound by anything other than your own morals and judgement to disclose it to the whole community.
I don't think anyone is questioning about them not disclosing the new strat, I think the question is about him setting a world record and NOT submitting it. He set a world record and sat on it for like weeks. That's the questionable part.
But you're part of a community, speed running only functions as a community. In other words for what you have to have value means you need to respect others in the community. If you do anything disrespectful (Letting only some people know a strat.) you are dividing the community.
this comment is a bit strange to me. nobody is suggesting they should be bound to do anything, and people are precisely criticizing their morals and judgment wrt how their failure to disclose the strategies served to fracture the community. I don't want to dig too deep here, but Goldeneye already has a certain reputation within the speedgaming community at large, and events like this unfortunately reinforce some of the negative stereotypes. the GE community either cares about that, or it doesn't.
@@thomasmathew13 No, I don't think that's the issue. Remember, hoards aren't exactly unknown in Goldeneye speedrunning. Sitting on a WR is fine, it's recruiting select individuals to share this new knowledge with that was problematic. Whiteted was essentially deciding who would have the opportunity to set a new untied world record. It'd be fine if he kept it to himself, got the records and then released it when he was ready.
Acadie, a true savage just flexing on you sweat lords.
started speed running GE 2 days ago and already got my self 3 decent times and smashed my PB twice. Used to watch this channel a while back, now im here for the tech
@@GamerFolklore appreciate it big man
I love the poke lab background from Snap. Brings back memories
I laugh everytime I hear that opening line. Good stuff as usual Goose.
The cat cheering with its owner at 18:52-ish is the most adorable thing. A feline speedrunning fan
It makes sense to keep the hoard project secret (that's the point), and it's not unfair.
Sitting on new strats, the hoarders run the risk of an outsider independently discovering the strats and spoiling everything, but that's just part of the game.
It would only be unfair if the hoarders were able to somehow influence the speedrunning public into not being able to find the strat themselves.
Bang on - when Dusky found Acadie's vid and we had to reveal our times early, a few people were commiserating us but we were fine about it. As I put it at the time - "live by the sword, die by the sword". When the discovery of it was unfolding in the-elite discord we just watched and waited.. and scrambled to get ready for when we'd have to post our times. We were never going to try and stop them finding it.
13:00 wah wah wah... nO onE toLd mE aBoUt thE nEW strAT!! tHeY sTOLe mY WOrLd reCOrd FroM me MOMMY!!
I'm not in the scene, I just love to watch it. Speed running is sick. That said, I cant help but think of a video you made a while ago about the absolute limits and whether or not it was possible to go any lower. Well, new strats were found. Why are you obligated to tell the community right off? They'll see em, and copy em, eventually. Isnt that normal? Either way, good stuff Goose. Thank you.
Imagine any sports team having to share their tactics with the opponent.....
No one likes a hoarder... goes for every community out there no matter how big or small, public or secretive. ;)
I was in the 1964 emulator discord when dusky found and posted acadie’s runs!
Hated the slap on agent so gave up on that quite early. Needless to say I'm quite pleased with this new strat. So much so that it got me back into the game and finally forced me to fix my controller situation. Since learning the strat I got 24 and am hoping for 23 in the near future.
Great video as always Goose!
Waiting for Gooses Roundtable!!! Awesome vid goose
D'awww. What a sweet, supportive kitty.
I love the way this man says lag.
LAAEG!
Great video, but at 5:13, there’s some more to the story:
Us XBLA runners were brainstorming ideas for Streets 1:10 in the discord server. One runner, Raskeshades, shared a video of a Streets 1:10 on emulator, from Acadie. Some runners went to his channel page, and found the runs of Depot 23 and Bunker 2 22 (another R-leaning run on Bunker 2). Either someone shared that run with Dusky, who found Bunker 2 20 and shared it with the-elite, or someone found Bunker 2 20, shared it with Dusky, who then shared it again with the-elite.
Source: xbla discord server
@@GamerFolklore I did yeah :) mostly.thanks to a strategy I took from Acadie
^^^^
I love how new strategys are still being discovered
So, Goose, I have a question. We've heard stories about speedrunners becoming degen for sinking so much time into a game, such as Mark's Dishes. But, as you said before, compared to a lot of stuff we see today, that was pretty tame.
My question for you: has there been a case of a "Moby Dick" record in the Elite, or other Speed communities you frequent? A single record that a person or group obsessed over so much to the point that it was detrimental to thier health, or thier relationships? Have any Eliters chased thier own White Whale? If so, I think it'd be a good video topic. With permissions from the example runners, of course.
speedrunning drama is a modern day freak show. very cathartic
I have to agree that recruiting a few select people to share some new, game-breaking secret with is ... questionable, at best. However, I can absolutely understand how it might have happened -- as you mentioned in the video, hoards have not only happened before, but have been met with celebration when they're revealed. I could see how Whiteted and the people he recruited could rationalize what they were doing based on those previous hoards being revealed, and not fully considering how different their situation was. There is a difference between truly mastering a popular strategy and achieving new records, and finding a new strategy that makes the old one obsolete and only sharing it with a few, effectively trying to determine who gets to hold a new untied WR.
I think they were wrong to do it, but I certainly don't think that means they should be ostracized or exiled. I think this should serve as a learning moment for the community, ESPECIALLY since the community as a whole was lucky enough to have someone else figure out the new strategy and publicizing it, essentially mitigating the damage that the first group MIGHT have caused. I'm sure they thought their decision would be accepted and understood by the community, and they were wrong, but they were saved by someone else finding it. Now they, and everyone else in the speedrunning (at least Goldeneye speedrunning) community knows that this sort of behaviour is seen as wrong.
In short: Whiteted & co were wrong, but not maliciously so. I'm glad there was no punishment or long-term damage done to them, but it should serve as a warning to others -- if you find a new strategy, you either keep it to yourself until you're ready, or you share it with everyone at the same time. No one should get to pick who in the community gets to have an untied world record.
This is one of your best videos ever made Goose. Brightened my day right up
From watching Bond escape the cell without opening the door. It seems to me the main time save is from the guard not kneeling to save "stop or I'll shoot" and therefore not waiting for him to stand up to get his key from him.
Can I stop holding the thought now? My arms are getting tired.
I am shocked! Shocked I tell you!
And MR cakes the 41 SA today!
People who complain about hiding strats are crybabies. Last time I checked speedrunning is a competition so why would you give up an information advantage. The record hoarding was even done in good spirit so give the community a spectacle when it drops.
Amazingly interesting and entertaining video as always goose
Okay video! Thanks for uploading!
You can actually get Bunker 2 Agent in 19 seconds if you use a new strategy I found called “subtract 1 minute”. So if you do it slowly and it takes 1:19, then you subtract 1 minute to get 0:19, and then BOOM you’ve got a new world record. Hope you like my new strat
Pretty good example of 'but it's not technically against the rules' not being a good excuse for being scummy.
You guys can tell me it's a competition all you want, but I remember playing MtG with people that would constantly do things like drop their cards, move things around on the table, obscure your vision in anyway they could, get their friends to distract you... I'm pretty certain they were probably just outright cheating as well but these kinds of tactics while technically not against any rules are definitely not going to make people around you happy that you showed up (or even exist at all.)
Just when you think everything about GoldenEye has been uncovered, Goose is there to prove you wrong and report on something new discovered.
“Trolly remarkable”
Can’t believe you didn’t take the opportunity
Hi Goose! When can we expect another fireside chat? Those are so good, you are a really good story teller!!!
Hello again my friend!
And here I was, thinking this is about Dam where you shoot through a wall to trigger the alarm button.
The game that keeps giving with some of the most unique gamers in history.
It doesn't surprise me that some people were upset but I mean he found the technique by browsing youtube videos so it technically wasn't a secret. Plus the fact that other people figured it out while they were keeping it a secret makes it def all fair game to me. Even if they didn't figure it out, still ok in my eyes. No one has to tell anyone anything.
I noticed a lot of Defenders are comparing it to "The person who found it should be able to set their world record." but they are forgetting... it wasn't just the founder who had the information. They gave that information to their competition selectively.
This is actually pretty rule breaking and you can be banned in a lot of games.
You are actively collaborating with your enemies, invalidating the personal use of information. You are choosing people to win and people to lose. The information is no longer personal and it becomes questionable intent among the entire group.
At that point you're no longer hoarding, you're literally dividing the community.
If a person were to get a new strat, submits it as part of the hoard, and no one employs the strat during the hoard aside from the one who found it then it is fair. The second other people start doing it the community becomes divided and it is an advantage that you did not earn or one you no longer have exclusive rights too having given it up.
Damn! Can't believe my childhood friend Acadie found this strat! I remember the good old days of our attempt at speedrunning in my room, feels like yesterday!
It’s crazy that this exploit was there for the taking and so easy to do yet nobody bothered to route it. That’s on everybody at this point after so many years.
I wasn't sure how today was going to be but it seems ITS A GOOD DAY TODAY!
Paper 007: the thousand-year Goldeneye
Personally I think the guys that found it independently had every right to keep it to themselves till they got their records, it is weird to bring only certain people in on it but in the end anyone else could have found the strat (and they did eventually), also anyone mad about not being able to get a new record at 22 or 21 as if they were entitled to it is just being ridiculous
My perspective as a complete outsider: I think people were getting fomo on the "gold rush". It seems like an exciting time for those groups, and limiting it to a clique is an interesting choice sure to ruffle some feathers. I think the guy who figured it out should have pushed it down 1 or 2 seconds, maybe told his best friend, then let it loose.
With that said, I agree there is nothing entitling anyone to anything. I just think that's the best way to please as many people as possible. I would say, it's 100% not a good idea to divide a small community with clique behavior.
that's three thousand milliseconds you've saved
My friends, it just keeps happening! Goose just keeps making quality content!
Reminds me of the OoT TASer that found DoT Skip and tried to hoard it for his TAS only for someone else to also find it.
Calle W, as in the high level Melee player from Sweden?! That's hype.
"Heroic, salt of the Earth speedrunner" should be in Will Xe's bio
Speedrunning is DEFINITELY somewhere on the spectrum.
Information is power, my friends.
I don't think there is anything wrong with hording game breaking strats. Some might view it kinda scummy, but in a competition I think it is completely understandable to want to have that extra edge. It rewards people who are able to find these new techniques that add so much to speedrunning. That being said, I would feel left out if I wasn't in on the know when others I knew were.
I think its silly to expect someone who found a good technique to not use it for themselves first.
I wonder if Acadie is now more involved with The-Elite after so much attraction to his channel, or if he's still grinding away on his own, playing on the EMU
TASpap ruined my life forever I will NEVER recover these guys should be put in PRISON
looool *spiderman meme*
this is getting wild
I just cant believe it just keeps happening
Hadn't paid this much mind when it first happened, but it's really funny watching this again cause this same exact thing happened in the oot community last month. Funny to see how different communities view hoarding strats like this
@@GamerFolklore responded on twitter