Manchubow vs. Longbow vs. Flatbow - Comparison
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มิ.ย. 2024
- As you all like comparisons so much, here another interesting one, regarding length of a bow and the power. Enjoy.
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Armin Hirmer
Malta Archery
100 Triq Annibale Preca
Lija LJA 1915
Malta - บันเทิง
A real archer who looks like a marvel movie character and gives free instruction? Awesome!
Hahaha thanks
I love "small, brutal, toothpicks "
I think it's clear that a Manchubow is the more evolved and superior bow style in this comparison, but as you mentioned, if you have to outfit an army it's more efficient to go with an easy to make in high quantity design. Just as Stalin used to say: "Quantity has a quality all it's own".
particularly when you consider that this was medieval europe; everyone armed themselves, so the weapon you're ingraining into the culture of your cuontry better be able to afford it. Alkso longbows simplicity did give them an advantage in that they could handle wet and humid conditions with their lifespan shortening so much. Composites and crossbows didnt like rain
It didn't like rain if you left it out. Fighting in the rain isn't a problem but extended exposure for days isn't great. That's why the composite bow was kept in a case when traveling. @@internetenjoyer1044
Also need to remember medieval England wasn't particularly known for being wealthy so longbows made much more sense.
Hi Armin, thanks a lot for an interesting comparison.
You‘ve mentioned that the massive vibration and the hand shock of the long bow is caused by the mass of its limbs.
Though I’m not a fan of long bows I have to disagree here. Sure the limb mass has some influence here but for my humble opinion it’s not the major reason. To proof that you just need to took st the limbs of the Manchu bow also used in this video, it has almost as long limbs as the longbow (72“ vs. 70“) and the limbs of the longbow are mich shallower towards their ends. If we would be able to weight them I’m sure Manchu limbs would come out to have more weight towards their ends.
To my opinion massive vibrations after shooting are caused by following 2 factors:
- the length of the „freely swinging“ part of string (for long bow it’s the whole string, in case of Manchu it’s just the part between the bridges). The longer the distance the lower is the vibrating frequency and the longer the duration.
- the mass of that „freely swinging“ string part (again for Manchu bow it’s less). The higher the mass the lower the frequency and the longer it’s duration.
The hand shock is for my understanding beside the limb weight is caused by the „trajectory“ of the limb movements which is caused by the limb geometry. For long bow during the release the „mass of the limbs“ is more or less moving towards the target, so once stopped by the string this energy generated the shock to the hand. In case of Manchu bow the mass of the Upper limb is directed in a kind of upward diagonal and the lower limb - in a downward diagonal. The upward- downward moves cancels each other, so only the „towards the target“ part of the movement causes the hand shock.
Best Regards
Philipp
Wow! Very interesting comparison. Surprised the small flat bow did as well as it did. Thanks for making the video.
I’m just starting in the sport and I really, really enjoy your videos. I’m old now but I’m still young at heart and archery definitely feeds that heart. Well done, as always!
Thank you sir. I liked this comparison.
Thank you for the comparison.
Whilst the english bow was cheaply made, there was an entire industry making them, which gives us surnames, "Bowyer", "Fletcher", and so on. The english bow is not quite so simple as the viking, the wood seasoned, the limbs more tapered, the grip thicker and the horn nocks necessitated by the slight natural recurve. The action of a longbow should be sweeter and not stack like that viking. The longbow should have a variable draw length, from the lips to the shoulder, without forcing it. For hunting and target practice it would be about the weight you used but for warfare it might be asked to shoot heads of up to 6-ounces, which needs a heavier bow and 'cloth-yard' arrows up to 1/2-inch diameter. Draw weight for intended purpose. The purpose of such a heavy arrow would be impact more than penetration. A specialised weapon to deliver with force from massed archers rather than distance or speed, and usually at the horses.
The Mary Rose longbows are good examples but they are late period, quite crude, and many appear unfinished. They ranged from 100 to 180 pounds draw but I cannot image anyone drawing the heaviest without tillering it down to suit the archer. The majority in the 150-160 range. They're for lobbing bricks, heavy arrows.
Awesome video. These comparison vids look fun to make 😀
What a great and useful video ever!
Do more of these comparison videos sir like compare the different fiberglass bows you reviewed in the past and whatnot.
Nice seeing theory in practise. Great video.
great comparison
@ 4:20 The bottom limb of that osage orange flatbow seems to be flexing way more sharply than the top limb
Saw video of a traditional North American Ram's Horn & Sinew bow which was said to produce 200fps with a similar draw -- didn't see them measure it though. Very interesting and deliberate manufacturing process.
wow the release on the machu bow looked amazing, enjoy!
Nice comparison
Thanks !
Yeaaaaayyyy... Pvc bow next video... Hehehe
What is the bow second from the bottom, on the rack behind you? 4:38
It looks very much like my Galaxy Black Ridge 70" Longbow. I know these things are often sold under different brands. I looked for other brands of this one, but didn't find any.
Odd question, I am getting back into archery. Used to shoot long bows, but being 6’ 6” the bows need to long for the draw length I needed. 20 years ago I could pull some heavier bow but not now. What kind of a defect refelex bow would recommend for starting with?
Hello Armin, your videos are fantastic! I’ve actually been looking for a viking longbow, could you point me to where you got this one or refer me to one you would recommend?
Indian archery tradition have both long and short bamboo straight bows. Best secret to learn is to practice opposite to high pressure air flow. Even three or five odd joints bows are also part of Indian archery.
Armin I love Osage as a bow wood.
Awesome video! Definitely learning a lot from your comparisons. I was wondering if you could review the Samick Mind 50, and maybe compare it to the Segye and Black Shadow? Seems to be a popular model from Samick.
good idea, once I will have a Samick in hands, I will do. Thank you
I've heard of the Viking style longbow before with the side nock and both ends of the string being fitted different. That other end is tied on, right? Doesn't slip or need a nock? Can you explain that a bit? I can't find details on on it like what the knot's called or anything (for one of my stories which is a Viking parallel the lead character makes his own Holmegaard bow/s with the string like that)
Its called a bowyers knot and it rests in the nock. Its used to account for the string stretching longer over time.
The flat bow didn't look like it was done properly, one limb was stiffer than the other... that could be the reason for the slower arrow speed. An improperly made bow based on elders tutelage won't put meat on the table, just practice form and release similar to Ishi's arrow release. Good presentation, I like the comparison between different bow designs.
The flat bow was asymmetric in limb size. One limb stiffer than the other in appearance has “0” effect on arrow performance. I realize there is an emotional stigma attached to seeing mythological fantasies exploded but here you see why you can stop dreaming. I’ve run into “flat bow” dreamers many times in my 50+ years of archery and this is 100% always the result. Asiatic archery always was and still is thousands of years of evolution further than anywhere else on earth... thousands before BC.
In other words... western archery can take credit for always having the most primitive equipment and styles throughout history even up to modern. Thank God the English never met the Mongols!
@@georgebowman5115 imagine if the English met the Mongols and adopt their design and build an even bigger and stronger Manchu style bows, lmao the Battle of Agincourt would be even more devastating for the French.
@@georgebowman5115 the English had many styles of bows, but if they were fighting the Mongols at Agincourt, their victory would have been greater as the bows of the mongols would have been useless given the pouring rain and sopping conditions 🤣
Interesting, I was surprised the short indian flatbow did so well, but it looked like a real beast to draw. I think they only drew to around 26 inches or so though, and shot at very close range. I must get a manchu bow and experience 35" draw. Zero interest in longbows ;)
You know the native American did shoot a bow that was a composite of Buffalo horn and sinew with static recurve limb tips but these bows were rare . There are some that believe they traded with asia or Siberia and tried to copy the composite bow with varying degrees of success.
Recently archeologists found a bronze buckle in a 1000 year old native American site in Alaska and on st lawerance Island of the west coast of Alaska armor very similar in construction to Chinese armor was found in 1000 year old dig made of ivory ,bone and sometimes iron .
@@jareth7456 Many native civilizations had bronze work, thing is, all of these are below the rio grande. However, one is the exception, and that is the Mississippi culture. One culture, the Tinglit, had iron working. I find it surprising they could make the composite bows personally, but they had their own sort of things going on.
I'm catching up on your past vids as i only subscribed a couple months ago.
I've learnt so much already.
Tell me, sometimes you rest the arrow on your finger on the left side of the bow and other times you rest arrow on right side of the bow on your thumb...any reason for this ?
When you are loading your muscles like that, you should take a valsalva. Lock your abdominal muscles against a deeply held breath. Don't release the breath until you are unloaded. It helps keep the peripheral nervous system primed for an intense load.
different ways of doing things
Every culture would do it differently
Interesting as always. What do you think different siyahs shape and siyahs length do (short vs long, curvy vs agressive)?
that would be a topic on its own, interesting but already very scientific :D
So, if you think this is an unfair comparison in favour of the manchu bow, get this: if you relate the speed of these bows to the hours invested to build them, as per values given by Armin (24 hrs for Viking vs. 1 year for Manchu), you get the following:
Viking: 143 ft/s / 24 hrs = *5.96* ft/s per hour of work
Manchu: 166 ft/s / (365*24 hrs) = *0.02* ft/s per hour of work
That doesn't even include the craftsmanship needed to build a Manchu bow. So I'd say this is not necessarily unfair, you get what you invest in, and as you want incrementally better bows, you have to invest exponentially more time.
hahaha yes you are right :D
but I think the difference with be much greater if you compare a 80 pound long bow to a 80 pound Manchu. Its a waste to to have siyahs for such low draw weight of 45 pounds. The advantage dont kick in until 80 pounds. I wish a youtube video could be made to test the 80 pound theory. I bet he wont make a video to test the 80 pound myth otherwise if it is true no one would buy those asian style ear bows because it would be pointless unless you have a high draw weight for the advantage to kick in.
@@epicyea3168 Yup, in testing the an 80# manchu is comparable to 130# longbow do to the siyahs. Even at lower poundage there is a huge satisifaction in effectively tossing 600-700 gr arrows at a target. Especially when the comparative poundage for a long or flat bow or even Asiatic recurves is normally sitting about 400gr.
@@ehisey What testing?
@@ehisey I highly doubt an 80# recurve would equal a 130# longbow. 80 lbs recurves hit hard; longbows above 110 lbs break the side of a barn typically. Recurve bows do get more energy out of the bow, but not THAT much more. The difference here was around 10% - and the ratio seems to be similar as you go higher up in poundage. I can conclude that an 80 lbs recurve might equal a 100 lbs longbow - but not a 130, that's too much.
Also, remember - the recurve bow has a longer draw length. If the longbow had longer limbs, and thus a longer draw length for the same poundage, it would probably be in the same ballpark. The difference between the short and long bow was around 30 m/s, the difference between the recurve and the longbow was 20-ish. The draw lengths are 28-32-35 IIRC. It's very much possible that we would see things get equal if the longbow had a longer draw length, seeing that draw length is proportional to the energy of the arrow.
Funny. Europeans have a odd idea of what short Native bows are. A short Indian bow would be 3 to 4 feet.
Smart idea having the tennis balls there to keep you sharp, you should play an older "semi-retired" version of Oliver Queen in a short film or something (I use bottles for that, the stiff type of plastic where they won't crumple up so easy)
Yes i got a 70 inch long bow with Robin hood bow company name, I'm interested in any info on it?
You need to turn your left elbow outward when you use a longbow:) Just so ya know. I don't get string slap now but I did a regularly when I first delved into them. I needed this comparison, though. Thanks for the video!
Never thought about that... Thanks. Wait, I did even a video about it. It is simply when the braceheight is too low, the string will slap you
with an English longbow the string will slap you no matter what. buts its after the arrow leave the bow so no big deal.
feet a little more apart, more upright with your upper body and turning the left hand outwards so that the tendon does not touch the forearm saves eveything. Do not let go of the arrow until everything is in harmony. It helps if the arrowhand is placed against the bone onder your eye ;-)
There are many ways to achieve the same goal
Shannon Outdoors is making fire hardened Hickory and other white wood bows without any backing with similar draw weights but pretty dang fast
i havent see any high speed footage showing the vibration . of bows like the viking .
or english longbows .
i mention cause you joked about the viking bow still vibrating .
that and some hi speed of your reaction to string slap would be fun .
i got a bit of a friends modern style trad recurve , my camera only does 400 fps
so its meh , but still fun .
cheers .
when I have a 1000fps camera I will do :D
Hi Armin I have a Question. Why when i see archers draw the longbow they lean towards the bow?
maybe I can help. It´s a technique you use for heavy war bows with 100 lbs - 180 lbs of draw weight.
@@quintus6081 it's a better technique as u use your back and shoulders instead of your arms. Dont matter about the poundage. Drawing by leaning forward makes drawing any bow more comfortable as it's more stable then your arm muscles
My 40lb Korean bow out performs my 50lb recurve, by a lot. I’d be amazed if the Manchu doesn’t come out on top.
Korean bows are faster due to lighter limbs and shorter ears. The Manchu ones were optimized for casting very heavy arrows with those long massive limb ears. Added limb mass and hysteresis contribute to the lower arrow speed. The same goes for the Mangol bows. Your trad recurve is likely 62 inch in length, whereas the Korean bows are generally around 50" )))
@Abu Troll al cockroachistan Did you mean plate armor, or mail chain armor?
@Abu Troll al cockroachistan equally ineffective, IMHO )))
@Abu Troll al cockroachistan There were numerous demos on armor piercing abilities of various warbows. None of them penetrated solid steel breast plates reliably.
I have a Korean Hwarang, 46# @ 28”. Draws to 31”. Gold tip traditional arrows full length are 32”. I don’t draw to full... maybe I’ll get to around 30”+ average. Arrows weigh 430ish gr. total; I have seen 216fps but maybe I got it further on that draw. I’m happy anyway. No western bow that looks like a kids bow can do that!! At 31”, I haven’t measured but I know I’m over 50#. It will do 32+ easily, they don’t break very easy.
What might be the next step up above the Manchu, possibly even slightly shorter?
Hi Armin, great to see this comparison! I’ve been arguing with western archery for decades about this exact subject. Lucky for them they were sheltered from the Mongols, Tatars and everyone else that always had far superior equipment throughout “ALL” of history. For me it’s a shame. It took more than 30 years of western archery before I met Asiatic and became enlightened. Spine, archers paradox and all the other bs is only bs unless your desire is to be slow and weak! Modern western archery form instruction guarantees physical damage! How could they become so... I won’t say stupid. Naive fits.
War is not just slight superiority in specific tools.
FYI - when the archers of Timur faced the knights of Stephan Lazarevic, they complained about the fact that western armor at that point was very difficult to deal with with their bow. Timur as we know won, but Lazarevic managed to whisk away heir and treasury probably saving the ottomans, all with western knights. Meanwhile, the Serenissima Repubblica of Venezia was shuttling away as many ottomans from Timur's fury. That's a western navy, just as an example.
But let's focus on tools. While fighting the Russians, ,Ukrainians etc, the mongols had a core of Genoese crossbowmen. If your archers are so superior, why you need western mercenaries not just as support, but in the middle of your deployment?
Can you answer that?
this illustrates why the Mongol style bow was adopted everywhere it was incountered, from Finland to korea, Siberia to Arabia. the extra skill and time required to construct was well worth it. These factors, skill, time to construct, and acquisition of materials are a bit over stated at the beginning of this clip. For example, the English had to start importing Yew bow staves from Spain towards the end of the long bow period because of limited supply in their own country. It is also quite typical to season a bow stave in a dry place 6 mo. to 2 yrs. before construction. As to skill which is undeniable, was far from limited to a certain few. First nations craftsmen incorporated reflex/deflex features into many of their bows, as well as sinew backing and even horn construction. I am certain Mongols and other Steppe people would have also had wide spread ability to construct the Asian style composit bow.
It was known in areas where it wasn't adopted. Part of that was the composite bow's vulnerability to conditions that didn't harm self bows. The glue used to hold the bows together could fail if exposed to the elements, which is a significant disadvantage in rainy climates...such as, say, England. This is not a problem with modern reproductions, obviously, as most of those use modern glues. I also have to wonder if a yew self bow would be significantly more efficient, since from what I've read the layer of sapwood really helped compared to other wood types. I would also like to see a composite bow of more traditional materials tested, but those are pricey.
@john son Total wealth is pretty much irrelevant for this; what matters is per capita wealth, and I don't think England was actually poorer than China per capita.
@john son Do you really not understand that wealth divided by number of soldiers it is spent on is what determines how much value in gear a soldier gets? Your soldiers don't get any better gear if your ten times more wealth is divided among ten times more soldiers.
Regardless, the English almost certainly had more per capita wealth than the early Mongols, so I really don't see what point you're trying to make here.
Abu Troll al cockroachistan, well said! Western archery doesn’t like to admit they didn’t know anything.
@@alexanderflack566 England was fighting with borrowed money from the merchant guilds, since William the Conqueror.
Thank you for this video. I am new to archery and learning with an 18 lb. 66" flatbow with a 28-ish(?) draw. I'm curious about longer draw bows though, because I can actually stretch a 33-36" span if I use my shoulder as anchor point. The only thing I worry about buying another bow for long draw sight-unseen is my bosom getting in the way...?
Rose Hep, sorry to say and I’m not being disrespectful but if you want to enjoy archery, study all of Armin’s videos, drop your flat bow or long bow ideology and try Asiatic. It’s thousands of years older than any western archery thoughts but enjoyable as well. The “thumb ring” ability is far more accurate and efficient. You’ll actually hit targets at will. “ALL” of the many styles of bows were far superior to any western archery throughout history... they’re far prettier too!
@@georgebowman5115 let people shoot what they want, dude. This is terrible advice.
@@georgebowman5115 You know, some people use traditional bows out of cultural heritage.
If you want superior bows, then go compound, or modern Olympic recurve.
Gotta love comparisons.
Who makes that Manchu bow?
Mariner bought from cinnabarbow.com
Armin Hirmer , thank you!
Much Manchu love here
😁hi from inner mongolia
Nabend Armin, von wem ist eigentlich der Indianerbogen ? Ich hatte schon mal mit dem Gedanken gespielt mir einen zuzulegen.
der ist von Flagella Dei, kann Dir einen Superpreis machen, voll die Prozente :D :D ich benutze ihn nicht und wenn Du einen haben willst...
I'm curious. You're right-handed same as myself....but I noticed you shot the Manchubow with the arrow on the opposite side of the bow. Why is that exactly? Is it something about how the bow is made? I can't see it closely enough to observe any differences for myself. lol Or is it merely a different style of shooting? just wondering it's purpose
Asian way of shooting. Thumb release
@@ArminHirmer ahhh ok. Thanks bud.
Nice comparison but I believe that you were holding the flat bow upside down..the stiffer limb on native short bows is the bottom limb(usually). Thanks for sharing.
This bow has a horrible tiller.. so it does not really matter. But well spotted :)
If a bow is asymmetric, the shorter limb is always lower. If not, the bow was made incorrectly and should have been discarded for something closer to reality. The whole reason for shorter lower limb is clearance and to centre the arrow for equalizing string length top/bottom. Gee Macworks... right side up or upside down will never change it’s performance. SLOW! This is especially evident if you’re on horseback as natives typically were. Maybe you like to wrap the longer lower limb around the horses head? Hard to get accuracy that way... on earth anyway!
Does your fantasy work well scraping limb tips on the ground as well?
@@georgebowman5115 "the stiffer limb on native short bows is the bottom limb(usually)." ....aka when it is a asymmetric short bow not symmetric, cause then there is no stiffer limb👍
Macworks, not on this planet. Upside down, right side up = same speed except your horse should end up trying to kill you for jabbing him every shot like I would if longer was down. Even the Samurai with their 8ft asymmetric bows were used on horseback safely long limb up... no exceptions. Studying archery will fix your confusion issue (usually). However, too much study and you will come to understand what has always been superior for thousands of years... Thousands of years!
Before getting your nose bent out of shape about this, look it up. Your story says... usually down? Either you know or you don’t. Under what circumstances were long limbs not usually down? Are you implying some archers were smart and some not? Define usually. Give me data, not your feelings!
There is no acceptable “usually” in archery. That’s for losers. So, give me lower limb as longer data (proof)! Usually! I “usually” find my wiener when I search for it in my pants... I’m joking, it’s always where I find it!
my best when hunting is the short bows
Интересно было бы посмотреть индейский лук с лёгкими стрелами в 28 дюймов.
It would be interesting to see an Indian bow with light arrows of 28 inches.
So, If I need to kill someone at my convenience, go with the Manchu, but if I need to kill someone in less than two weeks from now, go with the longbow...
Cool end results for the Manchu bow. 45 lbs draw weight for the long bow? Seems a tad on the light side for such a hulking brute. In saying that, I'd like to see the comparison to an English (or, if you like, Welsh) long bow. I believe (not 100% sure) those were in the realm of 100 to 150 lbs draw weight. Might have something to do with the wood most were made from. Yew, I believe. All the same, interesting video. Thanks for sharing.
You make the simple longbows harder to draw by making them thicker... You can have them at any draw weight you want... String up a tree trunk if you are The Incredible Hulk... Make your own by grabbing a stick from the woods... Thinner bends more easily than a thicker one...
Around 160lbs draw weight the longbow found on the Mary rose. That's the only solid info we can go on really. Still crazy power and thousands of them. Can see why it worked so well for the English haha
Ah, so that's what a flatbow is, I was never quite sure.
a study in human evolution . very insightful
Apologies, I don't know any Maltese, but at 10:04 it sounds like you said "واهية (wahia) madonna." What an interesting blend of Italian and Arabic!
Hahaha yeah Maltese is a funny language
Basalt fibers are 2 times as stong as steel. Basalt rebar may make a fine bow.
Fancy that. A bow made from rock!
It will make a good epoxy composite backing and belly on a wood core, but its kinda dense for a solid bow. If its anything like fiberglass, it'll shoot slower and have a lot of handshock.
shooting that many arrows without a tab or glove while shooting 40lbs and above, my fingers would be feeling numb.
maybe not feeling it due to string slap taking the focus of pain. ouch!
Useful to note that the Viking design predates the Manchu by 900 to 500 years. Something closer would be Tang, which is roughly contemporaneous with the Viking age
Great comment! Most people responding here know nothing of Asiatic archery. The Manchu bows were never meant to be the fastest yet all these posters don’t know any other. Let’s see, where would you start your count? ALL Asiatic bows throughout history outperformed anything western. Go back to when ancient Egypt was conquered by the Hyksos horn bow. They slaughtered the Egyptian longbow archers approx. 3500 years ago. Later it evolved to the Assyrian bow; one of history’s fastest. Egypt learned to build them and retook their nation during Ramses ii then went on to become the Egyptian Empire. Later, history knows the Egyptians as an archer nation... because of that fact!
The Manchu era had faster bows. That particular bow was not meant for speed... designed for shooting heavier high penetration arrows for the battlefield. They could penetrate typical battle armer of the day. However, all dynastic China had faster bows... all the way back to 1500+ BC.
Yet that’s not all yet all Asiatic bows were superior to western even during this antique period in time.
Composite bows have been around for at least 60,000 years... A stick on a string design (like the Viking bow) must be as old as strings have been made...
I would love to get a manchu style bow what company would you recommend
depends on how much money you want to spend. Alibow has a nice fibreglass one, AF archery has one, never shot it. Mariner has a beautiful one laminated. JZW I think have a fibreglass one which is a bit more pricey
I prefer authentic bows I don't like fiberglass
You are looking at about 2500 USthen as the authentic bows are horn. Look up Saluki bows.
満州弓早期是用来对抗火枪的，威力极强，而且很省力，同等拉力能产生更强的威力。
不是， 英国的Longbow是厉害的
Not a fair comparison. 1) the manchu is a modern laminate
2) Both of the selfbows had bad tiller.
3) native americans often used sinew backing which would increase the speed, also selfbow performance varies so much from bow to bow.
The asiatic bow was probably superior, but i dont think by 20 fps, i dont know what your experience is with mediterranean draw but release is key in performance, and its pretty clear that your strong suit is asiatic archery.
And still this is what you can buy today
@@ArminHirmer Maybe then you may want to get a ravenbeak longbow and a norsemans flatbows, instead of comparing cheaper brands.
The composite recurved bow was the key to horse archerymen in the ancient time. They were the special forces in their time.
There is some scant evidence that Viking bows dis have a blade on one end of the bow,however you just have to look at the Manchu,you know it will kick arse
It would be really difficult to get a "real" traditional manchu given that the manchu dynasty has fallen long ago and the bowyer tradition was interrupted. But luckily we can replicate it :)
hehe of course
Klaus Ernst Thalheim traditional Manchu bow is quite expensive .it is made of cow horn and tendon and other natural materials ,not fiberglass ，now in China,very little people can build a traditional Manchu now,as we call it “qinggong ”one traditional Manchu bow costs thousands dollars
The traditional Manchu bow was much faster and shot heavier arrows! There were no western bows that could approach Asiatic bow performance throughout history. Asiatic bows go back more than 3000 years and ALL were better!
@@georgebowman5115 This isn't necessarily the case....the problem with traditional composite bows, they fail in wet climate. This is also the reason that the self bow was used in Central, Northern and Western Europe. Correct is that the korean gakgung has a outstanding performance, except in wet climate. They used self bows or laminated bows in Southern China, because of the humidity. So the archery culture/technology developed according to purpose, environment and interaction with other cultures.
Klaus Ernst Thalheim, I suppose you only look at comments particular to only your posts. It’s a shame. I’m not going to debunk your mistake here as this fallacy you described was more than adequately and correctly addressed in a previous post and better wording than I would have chosen by another gentleman. He touched on every aspect you mentioned and a number of others you failed to account for. I’m not going to look for it as I’m not interested in your enlightenment. You didn’t even address the “3000 years ago” I mentioned. That time frame of many centuries before Manchu dynasty was not a mistake. How about looking further back to ancient Egypt for example if you want to know more, pre-Ramses era. They had their longbow version and were slaughtered by the Hyksos “horn bows”. These were what the Assyrian bows originated from. Manchu were never the fastest bows and never meant to be.
I have a Korean Hwarang. Their performance did not decay from climatic conditions as most others also did not. The Mongols didn’t conquer the entire known world with finicky, weather prone bows. None of these peoples were stupid. Stupid in those days equaled dead. I believe your bias needs an adjustment in reality... the history of archery.
I think bows are beautiful shape. Obviously the Manchu bow out-performed the Viking bow, but you did mention that the long bow are easier to make ? Would you know roughly how long it would take a craftsman to make the Manchu bow and the long bow ? If you have a war on you need to be able to manufacture weapons very fast so a complicated weapon that takes a lot time to make and is very skill demanding could be a setback. An example of this is the German v Russian tanks. The German tanks were far more complex and difficult engineering wise to manufacture whereas the Russian tanks were simpler and easier to manufacture.
The viking bow is a dry stick. You put it on a tiller. Shave or sand off layers of wood until you get the shape and draw weight you want... Minutes to days of work depending on how much craft you want to put into it...
Hello Armin, Thank you for this comparation.! I think an improvement to compare speed for this three bows should be done using with Thumb Release in all of them. In my experience thumb release gives arrond 15% of additional speed to the arrow.
One should shoot the bows as they were meant to be shot I guess
Maybe, but the benefit of no window in long and not so long bows is that you can gain extra speed using thumb release.
That little osage bow looks poorly tillered. You might want to take a scraper to it so it doesn't break. It might be because he holds it so far down and has stressed the lower limb severely over time.
Exactly what I was thinking. The poor bow needs help.
How about a bearpaw Scythian style bow next, see how it stacks up.
the fibreglass one? I guess it will not do very well :D
In Manchu fibreglass is the main working material, therefore, it may be more efficient. It seems the other bows are more based on wood.
The core on the Qing is Bamboo not fiberglass
@@ehisey It's the outer layers that undergo the most tension and compression, which I believe are fiberglass. So his assertion, that fiberglass is what's storing most of the energy, is correct.
@@alexanderflack566
Fiberglas was not around wen they designed this bow
he should have used a period style for the comparison or used fiberglass longbow too
@@markuscamenzind5510 The problem is that most traditionally made horsebows are in the $2500+ range, and every wood/fiberglass laminated longbow I've seen differs significantly from the Norse and English designs (typically having cutout arrow passes, for example). I would suggest at least using a yew self bow, though. Osage is pretty good, but it's certainly not yew good.
@@alexanderflack566
But using yew would make it an English longbow and not a Norse bow.
Not that it really matters as it all comes down to personal preferences in my opinion.
No matter how much better a bow performs , it is no good if it doesn't feel right.
Well Manchu were the ultimate nomadic people who conquered the mighty mongol. What you expect?
476 fps, those red fletchings really help. =)
hahaha yeah
Who else hears shotgun in the background such a banger
Comparing two sticks to a work of art :-) the longer the bow the greater the range an 80lbs hand cross bow has a shorter range than an 80lbs long bow
You western guys are so funny in your fantasies. The fastest of the Asiatic bows are the shortest; Crimean, Tatar, Turkish and Ottoman for example. If you studied archery, you wouldn’t have made a fool of yourself by making such a statement. The slowest bows in history were the longbows. The British would pull 100 - 120# to get any performance at all.
With Viking the history is clear, would love some historic context for the others to prevent me from googling it 🙂
Manchu bow is a Lamborghini, Viking is a Volkswagen, Indian is a Ford ;)
6:53 pause it the bottom arm is way more bent... your supposed to have your hand in the very center of the bow. he is holding it too low generating much less power from the upper limb
8:04 the bottom limb is bending harsher then the upper
Armin, Armin....
"It's such an unfair comparison." It is indeed, and I see, You admitted it yourself at the end. 😀 So, nothing wrong here.
But, it is a very, very interesting comparison, nonetheless, indeed.
So, on one side we have basically two selfbows, it seems, one more terrible than another, and on the other, a modern laminated Manchu bow, of a sophisticated design. The real ancient composite bow would take even more time and resources to be made. But, I know of course that You know that.
BUT ALL WE GET IS 23 FEET P/S MORE, 7,01 Meter!
Sorry, really, that I wrote that with caps on, I was really surprised, don't want to offend You.
So, literally a pulled up tree, dried and hacked in a bow literally in hours, (You can begin in a morning and shoot it afternoon, says Tim Baker, one of authors of Bowyers bible's) and by doing that, one can make a considerably better bow, as You presented here.
Than a 50# bow would shoot around 164 fps (documented in Mojam test data, bowyer's bible four, page 110), shooting 10grains/pound arrow.
But, I don't know, where You can buy such a selfbow of a good design, so I will not hold against You, that You didn't present one here.
So, in my eyes from cost of materials and time / efficiency perspective longbows win big time. They are also very silent bows. The narrow outer limbs, that Baker makes are also lighter to draw and have less handshock.
I don't want that my comment spurs endless and useless discussions about which bow design is better. A bow should please his owner, both esthetically and how it shoots. So, all could be good.
Every established bow type is excellent, this will become clear once the design AND it's use environment are understood.
But important difference is: recurved, composite asiatic bows were a product of already highly sophisticated civilizations. They required a complex technical culture. So, from this perpective, we should admire modern compound bows with their cams and pulleys even more (ok, relax all, I know it's not so simple). 😀
Longbows/flatbows of various designs on the other hand could have been made by natural, simple, pre-agricultural cultures.
This makes them beautiful and efficient in my eyes.
I cannot thank You enough for this comparison. This was one of the most interesting videos for me.
Best wishes from me!
The longbow would've been the excellent bow to have made during war, or when in need of hunting but without a bow. It doesn't necessarily mean it's pre-agricultural, it's just that it needs to be made quickly for some reason
yes, you're absolutely right, this was an unfair comparison.. Not even close to the same league
Of course. Manchu outperforms them all :)
@@ArminHirmer Sure do. Thanks for making your videoes.
@@ArminHirmer Maybe you need to get hold of a better quality longbow and flatbow then for a fairer comparison before you make such a flawed statement from flawed results. Those two bows are obviously at the low end of the scale as far as quality goes.
Are we to assume that the Manchu bow cannot be bettered by its contemporaries?
I don't know, I only show results :D every bow has its pros and cons I guess
Not from any western contemporaries... not even close! That never happened throughout history. Asiatic bows, however, were varied and had differing uses such shorter from horseback etc. Yes, many were faster and used somewhat lighter arrows. Manchu were designed for heavier, longer more destructive projectiles on the battlefield.
I think the Sipahi design has been tested to be the most efficient design before modern bows... Not sure about timelines as compared to other bows...
The flat how is not very well-made. The lower limb is flexing way too much compared to the upper limb. It needs to be re-tillered.
I just made a hickory flat bow, 47#@28" 62"NtN, which shoots 400gr arrows at about 165-175fps.
13:51 I disagree a longbow Viking or English are not easy to build the cross sections take a lot of stress they can break very easy sure a lot of people can make them but those bow are usually not very good look at a website raven beak nature works the man there makes some of the best longbows in the world you will see what a really nice longbow looks like also that First Nation flat bow has a hinge that might break aside that I enjoyed your video and it was very interesting
Compared to a composite bow still easy
Yes but I don't think it fair to compare the two they are very different bows and makeing them is very different
@@avidanglerorobsession6127 The English longbow is not famous because they were great weapons. They had and organized effort to create a lot of archers and easy to make longbows. That is what made them successful in warfare. The Asiatic styles of bows are more technologically advanced weapons, while the selfbows are easier to produce in large numbers. They both have their strengths in other words...
LoL !!! Like pull starting a crappy lawnmower
dio madonna.. :)
45-50# pull is nothing! 75-100# is when it gets serious!
And still, same poundage and the reflex bow will outperform the longbow...
@@ArminHirmer Except in shooting a heavy arrow which is what the english warbow was made to do.
Hey
dein reiterbogen hat zu wenig standhöhe und den osage würde ich an deiner stelle nicht nochmal so weit ziehen.
No contest
PLEASE use finger protection on the draw hand
shooting heavy bows for a long time without finger protection will DESTROY nerves!!!
Funny English archers didn't have hand protection and they were pulling bows of over 75 ibs. If u are not used to it then yes it could
@@Daylon91 I had similar concerns as that guy with the helmet but I'm not about to argue with someone who has forgotten more about archery and I'll ever know.
That being said:
How *DO* you "get used to it" without destroying your nerves?
I started archery *yesterday* and plucked the string until my left forearm began to bleed from being slapped by my pizzicatos of *death* . Being I was in an archery shop, I left the range and purchased an arm-guard and was back in business. A short while later, my fingers were turning a lovely shade of *miserable* and I could feel the blisters beginning to develop.
I was now faced with the conundrum, "buy the little finger glove thingy or man up and keep shooting until my fingers bleed..?"
I am now the proud owner of a finger glove thingy.
@@Pynaegan if you are shooting until your fingers bleed you are most likely shooting too many arrows in one sitting. Remember if u have no farm experience lifting bales your fingers will be soft and not used to that pressure. Or you are shooting a bow too heavy for your fingers. Start low then your fingers have a chance to build calisus.
@@Pynaegan also string slap can be prevented by either not shooting a longbow, increase the brace height and /or shoot eastern style. The string slaps your wrist when you shoot on the left side (without a shelf) because the string bends into the arrow resulting in the string hitting you. Shooting on the opposite side saves your arms and is a more efficient shooting style
man dude just keeps pulling i would be scared the bow would explode lol
Longbows are more primitive types of bows so you need more strength to achieve similar results on the target. The humid and rainy weather of some regions would cause serious maintenance issues to horn/sinew bows. Composites were known in western europe, the Romans used it. It is also worth pointing out that the men using the longbow were particularly strong men, using bows in excess of 100 pounds of draw weight. So even though their longbows made them tired much quicker than if they used composite, they were still effective on the battlefield and particularly lethal at close range within 30 meters with those heavy arrows.
So we can assume that the indian bow is a little prrrfttt? ;-)
It's short and not tillered properly. But overall yeah :)
9:01 Hahaha you really don´t need to say more.
Actually he does. Using a cheap shit longbow and flatbow ain't going to give an honest result.
That's a poorly made flat bow. The limbs do not flex equally.
So choose a bow the same way you choose women curvy and fast he he he
Considering the native bow, try shooting them while in some bushes lol.
But the advantage of the siyah dont kick in until 80 pounds. I bet if you compare at 80 pounds you would see a drastic difference
this is what some people say yes. of course the higher the poundage the bigger the difference
you should post a video where you test a 80 pound siyah bow and compare it to a 80 pound longbow. I bet the difference would be more noticeable
Leverage works at any draw weight... Physics does not care about how humans decide to scale things...
It would be more fair to compare an European style longbow with the yumi, Japanese longbow.
Not much fairer really. The Yumi is also a much more advanced laminate bow design than the longbow.
That was already done and available on TH-cam. Sorry but the European longbow is the most primitive, inefficient example anyone can find throughout the history of archery. The Yumi bow never suffered the energy bleeding consequences of archers paradox... that’s a western archery flaw!
you might need to compare a longbow versus asiatic design by accuracy, simply because the "Traditional Bowyers Bibles" (Vol 1 and 4 in particular, iirc) state that any recurved/siyah'ed limp will have a more unclean arrow release - bow limbs accelerate the string and therefore the arrow, but the secondary function of bow limbs is to stop doing that and release the arrow. The TBB states that because longbows decelerate slower/smoother, a cleaner release is achieved.
There's no hint in the TBB how this was tested, neither if thumb release was used. The archers release technique might influence this slightly, as does khatrah. Now your argument for using thumb draw is solid, "it is used this way", so it would be interesting to compare a longbow with med draw versus asiatic bow with med draw versus asiatic bow with thumb draw, and just focus on groupings.
Accuracy is practically left out in your video, but I understand why - it is way more effort. You need to shoot way more and collect more data on groupings, possibly using several days. I would still greatly appreciate your input on this, especially in a video. If you start a patreon-goal for this, let me know :)
nice idea. but I think one gets used to whatever he shoots. So after a while I will be same accurate with longbow as with recurve. And until now, I was always naturally more accurate with recurve bows - but of course I did not read the mentioned bible before... I will think about it
Yes, that's another problem with testing accuracy. thanks for your consideration, however
@@BaeBox Mechanical fallacy, the string stops suddenly on either style bow if well made. Properly made the bow is still accelerating at the point the arrow leaves the string as the bow limbs are still under tensions trying to return the unstrung at rest state. This is one of the reasons you want an arrow heavy and stiff enough to absorb most as much energy of the release as possible and dry firing can make a bow come apart.