In Oct. 1969 my cousin came to visit us from Japan. He was a missionary for his church and was on a speaking tour. We rode the brand new Speed Line from Lindenwold to Philly. He was impressed. It reminded him of the excellent train service throughout Japan. He said he almost expected the operator to make his announcements in Japanese.
@@barbatosjaegar6838 no, _TAXIS_ treat their personnel better than Japanese railroads. One of Japan's worst train accidents revealed that to the world.
I feel the exact same way! Listening to Alan I keep thinking 'wow, Philadelphia really sounds great, might be worth a visit, why has nobody told me that before?'
I went to Philly last fall and it was absolutely horrible. I’m mostly concerned about safety to be honest. NYC while not perfect is much better in my opinion.
Philly is an awesome city and one of the few non car dependent cities in America but it is held down by the homelessness and crime. Philly, LA, Chicago, and NYC all need to take a page out of Houstons book and clean themselves up.
@@vyros.3234 Houston crime is arguably worse than NYC, at least when you are comparing fairly (per capita). In Philly, it's pretty easy to stay out of the neighborhoods with high crime if you do even a tiny bit of research before visiting.
It's heartbreaking to know we could've had PATCO service all over SJ. There are so many rail lines already laid down and so many train-stations-turned-museums/cafes all over the region. The area was built with and for rail service. My home town is literally named after a train station. I cry about this in my car daily.
The politics of both North & South Jersey are TERRIBLE when it comes to discussions of transportation needs. Traffic jams are the norm including the rising gas prices that goes with it as well.
It sucks that north jersey has so many more options than us! When I lived in Moorestown and Collingswood i would have LOVED a commuter option to mount laurel, but we are stuck with spread out office parks, and non walkable, and the depressing stretch that is Route 38.
FOR REAL! I live in medford and see the lines of these old abandoned rail lines all over this side of the state and cant help but feel a bit sad that none of them are in use anymore save for the AC line. I wish that if i wanted to go see my friends at rowan or rutgers i could hop on a train in MY OWN TOWN and arrive in glassboro on one instead of sitting in the traffic hell that is cross keyes road. It really makes me sad. Hopefully one day.. but i doubt it
I rode from Lindenwold to Broadway, Camden on the very first PATCO train, on the opening day, Jan.4, 1969. I was the second person in line to pay my fare in an old red Johnson fare box. The automated fare gates were not working yet. I sat in the first seat on the first train and I was interviewed by several radio stations. I took color movies of the ribbon cutting and the first day trains. At the 50th Anniversary event in 2019, I was given the honor to cut the cake and I got the first slice. I also rode on the Grand Opening day to Philly, Feb. 15, 1969. And I rode on the last Bridge Line train from Camden to Philadelphia. When I attended the BART ribbon cutting ceremony, I stood three feet from San Francisco Mayor Joseph Alioto when he cut the ribbon. I filmed the event and rode the first train. I took color movies of the first day trains and the crowds waiting to board them. At the public ceremony, it was announced that BART was the first automated rapid transit system. I blurted out loud enough to be heard, "What about PATCO". They exclaimed Shhhhhh !! LOL I was given a write up by the San Francisco Examiner, along with a photo of me, telling of my 3,000 mile trip to ride the first BART train.
PATCO also operates 24 hours a day making it Philly's only underground train service to run overnight since they moved the BSL and MFL Owl services to bus routes.
@@GeneralLiuofBoston1911 Philly subways used to run overnight up until a few years ago, but with pretty limited service and the El was definitely sketchy. My comment is more of a technicality/fun fact rather than something that's actual useful for Philly reaidents as PATCO isn't helpful for traversing Philly and really only gets you to or from Jersey.
I adore the PATCO. I took it into Philly every day when I was living in Haddonfield and working at Jefferson Hopsital. It set an impossible standard that no train could ever reach in my new home of Pittsburgh 😂 Edit: Also, I just want to echo Alan’s praise of Haddonfield and Collingswood. It’s well worth the trip outside of the city for the food and the shopping in a cute colonial-style town. Highly recommend the El Jefe sandwich at Crumb on Kings Highway.
@@BiggusJakeus For sure. It’s funny because I’m some ways, the Ts a lot like PATCO. A largely linear train line that shuttles people in from the surrounding suburbs to a downtown where people work and go for entertainment. But as someone who lives within the city, it gives me almost no reason to use it to leave. 😂
I grew up in SJ and honestly didn't know how spoiled I was by PATCO. I had been house hunting on the PA side, and when you check SEPTA commuter rails (Philly/PA train service) - service stops at like... 11pm. PATCO runs all night. The trains seem to be up kept better as well (SEPTA routinely smells like urine imo 😭) I hope the proposed lines heading south come to fruition. If you want to live in a town where you can easily take transit to Philly, you have so few options. Ty for the SJ love!!
My favorite irony about the PATCO is that despite being very advanced, aesthetically it looks very retro to me (quite possibly because, being so well designed at the time, the system hasn't needed that many extensive upgrades, preserving more of the original fabric of the line)
Why are you saying it's retro like it's a bad thing? I actually I love it's aesthetic (but that's probably because I like the classic retro look of American Metro trains and not really that modern look that you would see in Europe or Asia).
Glad to know that my official diagnosis for the Atlantic City Line from Fixing Your Branch Line sounded so outrageous that you decided to make an entire video defending PATCO instead of converting it to heavy rail. But in all seriousness, great editing for this video, and nice to see you were able to interview a well known PATCO historian. Interesting to see that PATCO wanted to construct lines on pretty much every other rail line going into Camden, although I would think this could prose some problems for heavy rail double tracking and rail spur access for local freights. Can't wait for more coverage on South Jersey in the future! (And thanks for not roasting me in the vid btw)
@@edwardmiessner6502 So long as they tried to feed everything into Philly, sure. Having some direct connections between the branches could help to alleviate some of those problems _in addition to_ making usable suburb-to-suburb connections.
To be honest, I never really considered New Jersey to be the hub for innovation. But after seeing your videos, I am beginning to think I should take a trip out there.
We perpetuate the myth that this is a bad place mostly to keep gentrifiers away, though it really isn't working all that well anymore. Not even Jersey Shore succeeded for long. Hell, not even re-electing Chris Christie worked, and we nearly flushed our entire transit system down the toilet when we committed to the bit on that one.
The lower amount of density of stops makes me think PATCO more of a rapid transit suburban train like the RER, Crossrail and S-Bahn than the Paris Metro, London Underground and U-Bahn, especially since the trains connected two different termini which only became connected with each other thanks to a rapid transit service. It's also certainly interesting to see how old automated trains are. You sometimes never know that even seemingly "modern" developments were developed decades ago.
It's even decades older than that! PATCO's automation is built on top of well-proven technology from the 1920s: pulse code signals inductively picked up through the rails.
Yes, so true and sad. I limit my dating to ten miles on the PA side, there just isn't an easy way to get to a lot of neighborhoods in North Philly via rails, and I hate driving into the city.
Well, parts of NJ, namely the Lindenwold line. It would be even better for commuting from South Jersey to Philly if PATCO stuck to the original 3 line plan. Adding the Moorestown and Woodbury Heights lines could have doubled or tripled rail capacity to south jersey and taken that many more cars off the roads (I-295, NJ-42 and NJ-55). And I still think that minimally just a second electrified potentially > 50% solar, grade separated heavy rail PATCO line is preferable to the proposed at-grade, diesel Glassboro-Camden light rail line.
@@SP1CEANDW0LF I mean that does sound awful in terms of rail travel, but it is not at all inaccurate to say that Collingswood is quite literally geographically closer to Center City than either of those neighborhoods are
I can remember as a little kid when Kings Highway in Haddonfield was dug up to put in the tracks and station for the High Speed Line. The trains had a unique sound to them compared to the old diesel locomotives that ran through town. I used the line often to commute to Drexel University in Philly and now as a senior I admire the vision and commitment planners had in the 1960s to make this work. It is remarkable the system had only one station addition (Woodcrest) but no further extensions. Thank you for the great trip down memory lane!
I love the ambition of engineers at this time to try to solve the problems they saw with transport. Even though it doesn't solve the problems we need solved today, it's just one small change to get there. I think the same thing about WMATA, MARTA and BART. Really great pieces of underused infrastructure.
Even if the end product was not the greatest according to modern urbanism standards, at least they had vision and they built big. Today it takes 20 years and 20 trillion dollars to build one new line!
@@UrbanJerseyGuy I think that marketing also plays a huge part in this. Germany doesn't do a good job marketing major projects and usually ends up developing opposition movements as a result. The US is better at marketing in general, but always enough to create political will.
A little bit of context here: The US is the exact country where automatic train operation (ATO) was invented. To acheive automatic operation, you'll need an underlying protection system in the first place - the automatic train protection or the ATP - so that whenever ATO attempts to do something deemed unsafe, the ATP will alway safely intervene, usually by bringing the train to a full stop. The earliest railway ATP also came from the US. It has something called "cab signalling" in its core, which was invented by engineers at Union Switch & Signal (US&S) in ~ 1920s, when they realized that the electric currents sent to running rails for train detection (track circuits) may also be modulated to carry vital signal indications from wayside signal boxes to trains. Meanwhile, the ICC required railways to have some sort of automatic protection. Some big railways, like the Pennsylvania Railroad, tried this new technology, and found it to be so reliable that with cab signalling, you can actually eliminate most wayside signals! Initially, power frequency current was used as the carrier of cab signalling. Upon invention, this type of cab signalling soon found its place on mainline railways in the US, especially in the northeast region. Passenger railways like Amtrak, LIRR, MNR, SEPTA, MBTA, still use this form of cab signalling today. Both PATCO and London's first semi-automatic underground line - the Victoria Line opened in 1969 - laid their foundation of automation on this service hardened yet a little bit antiquated technology. But major signal vendors in the US had been far more aggressive. In early 1950s, they found a better cab signal carrier: audio frequency current. Audio frequency currents eliminate most labor intensive inspections of rail insulation joints, are much less vulnerable to traction current interference, and are able to carry more information. These advantages naturally lead to preference over power frequency cab signalling among later transit expansion projects in the US. When SF decided to build its BART with most advanced signalling solutions, many vendors made their bids. The US&S's solution was based on audio frequency cab signalling, which enabled semi-automatic operation and dispatching. They lost the bid, but later provided a similar solution for Montreal's Expo Express, making the latter first railway in the world to run automatic trains. The advancement in electronics pushes US-origin, "track circuit" based cab signalling and automatic train control to the apex from 1970s to 1980s, when the MBTA and CTA resignalled their heavy rails with audio frequency track circuits (so theoretically they can run semi-automatic trains but they don't), while the BART, WMATA, Baltimore MTA and MARTA built new semi-automatic heavy rails with them, until free space communication based train control (CBTC) went into the arena in late 1980s. While CBTC has been increasingly competitve, track circuit based automatic train control remained somewhat popular in the following decades to come. Taipei Metro contracted General Railway Signal (GRS) to provide signalling for their high-capacity lines; Shanghai Metro Line 1 also has GRS supplied signal systems, very similar to those designed for MARTA. LACMTA's Green Line, opened in 1995, has US&S's "next generation" audio frequency cab signalling that encodes digital signal indications instead of analog ones. In 2002, Copenhagen opened a fully-automatic, 24/7 light metro. Its signalling is not CBTC, but the same track-circuit based system US&S installed on LACMTA's Green Line! Contrary to popular belief, CBTC is NOT the prerequisite for full automation. If you are interested in pre-CBTA era railway automation, you may refer to the following 1976 report by Princeton: ota.fas.org/reports/7614.pdf
Great write up! Another thing to consider is that CBTC doesn't come "out of the box" with broken rail detection like AF track circuits do, which, IMO, should be mandatory.
When I worked at the TTC I recall the 'Big' boss waxing poetic and lauding this line and the features built into it. I took the time to check it out for myself by riding the front seat and photographing it in the mid 80s and must agree, that this was indeed cutting technology and the best part, unlike most space age applications to transit, was as reliable as could/should be. Bill Vigrass' commentary on the traction motor early failures reminded me of the Philadelphia and Western's high speed line and the similar early maintenance needs of the 'Bullet' car motors. Cutting the traction power voltage from the unusual 750 volts to the more common 600 solved the problem, but one could still experience the forces on acceleration of being pressed back into the seat cushions. Must have been something else with the full 750. I must admit, that I like the P&W the best of all like demographic serving lines although with the PATCO's subway under downtown it is one step ahead in that detail. Thank you for this documentary review Alan. I did enjoy it thoroughly.
I live on the Westmont stop and I learned a few things from this video, well done. Patco is easily the best line I've been on in the US. I go to Temple in North Philly and I was able to get to my job in haddonfield late at night, easily, using bsl and patco. The patco cars are still the cleanest piece of publicly owned property in Philadelphia. The single thing that the city is doing wrong, if you ask me, is that they have allowed a homeless encampment to persist in the underground concourse between the patco and Philly's primary subway line (broad Street line) for at least the past two years. I've talked to a number of people who've specifically told me that this has discouraged them from taking the train. I think if we love public transport then we should agree that allowing such things to go on which actively make less popular its use and more popular the use of cars is a bad thing. Our city's government has been doing poorly for a while now though, and there other reasons why nothing is done about it. Again great video, learned a lot about the history.
I agree except for one thing, The City did not allow the homeless encampment. The city has tried many times to clean up the tunnels. After an agreement was made with Septa & Patco,The tunnels are closed and gated off to discourage the homeless. I have to now walk up the steps and down Locust Street and back down the steps to enter the BSL.
@Joseph I worked for OHS for many years before now working for PATCO. I have worked the tunnels attempting to enroll the homeless into shelters. There are plenty of beds available, but many don't want to go as they will not be able to do drugs and must follow shelter guidelines. I also watch the Septa/Phila police do sweeps every morning in the tunnels and 1 hr later the people are back. These aren't homeless people, these are drug abusers that do not want help and not willing to enter treatment. You cannot kick people out of a public space, but you can limit access which is what the city/Patco is doing. E.G The maze of tunnels from 18th and Market to Walnut/Locust.
@@ozgreen2843 I was a heroin addict in Camden and Philly and got sober back when heroin was still heroin. That said, back in 2013, nobody had the balls to just set up shop and start doing dope in a major thorofare in Center City. People didn't just to heroin and smoke crack en masse out in the open. They found abando's, back alleys, etc etc. What is happening in the subway tunnels and in the entire neighborhood of Kensington is unprecedented and was never like that back in 2013. Something has to give and the city really needs to find a way to step up enforcement and actually discourage what is happening.
PATCO is definitely in the BART/MARTA/Washington Metro model of commuter rail-esque subway service, systems especially like the NY subway (and Philly's Broad St Line and some of the L lines) had a "hybrid" model of frequently spaced stops in neighborhoods along with express services to get people quickly to the city center. PATCO roughly covers the distance from Lower Manhattan to South Brooklyn, which is covered by multiple express services.
Having only recently traveled on most modes of public transport in the Philadelphia area, I do have to say that the transit in that area is severely underrated. Good video!
Keep in mind the DVRPC has no real legal power as far as land use goes. They can just urge municipalities to do something; municipalities frequently ignore these urgings.
I love this video. A South Jersey native, I have been riding this train since 1977. We use it quite frequently to go into Center City. It's so convenient.
The house I grew up in, in Westmont, backed up against the Speedline tracks, and I've logged more commuter hours on the Speedline than any other public transit. Thanks for helping me justify my soft spot for this train.
It can still be great. We need to treat Philly like a German city and build out the regional rail and patco systems in manners similar to the Munich S bahn. The downtown tunnels (aka the hard work) are already done, signaling and high floor platforms are what remain
PATCo definitely needs to be integrated with SEPTA fares as well. Having a separate fare system for a single metro line is silly. Add NJT as well and any other prominent operators in greater Philadelphia.
@Joseph Being a software-development supervisor (for an unrelated company) I watched the Key disaster unfold from its beginnings in the 1990s. SEPTA violated almost every basic design principle in the book: - as you mentioned, they didn't go with a proven vendor - they refused to look at other cities' best (and worst) practices - instead of starting with a clean slate they decided that the Key should replicate the patchwork legacy fare system almost item for item. A LOT of resources were wasted duplicating quirks and inconsistencies that had crept in over the last 70 of so years. There's a lot more but I'd be well into deep-geek mode.
There used to be 3 massive books including engineering diagrams and studies of the original PATCO line as well as the extensions to Atco and Glasborro at the Voorhees library. They were a little beat up in 1994 when I last reviewed them but would be worth a look if you're looking for more design information.
I want all the trains. I live down toward Hammonton, so if I’m going to Philly and staying east of the Schuykill River, I take NJ Transit’s Atlantic City LineI get off in Lindenwold and take PATCO the rest of the way. If I’m west of the river or going further than Philly, I’ll stay on the ACL and got to 30th Street Station. The big problem is the gross mismatch in timetables between PATCO and NJT. PATCO runs 4-5 trains for every one of NJTs which makes transfers a huge headache.
I agree. I live near a Riverline station and would like to take it to NYC, Philly or AC via connections but they stop running at 9PM to share with Conrail and I'm afraid of getting stuck.
errrr...preceding PATCO's, the Expo Express even outpaced the Victoria Line hailing the advent of automatic operation...the on-board operators signified cosmetics
I just want to say, this video is visually STUNNING, absolutely love the editing, especially in the intro section. Fantastic work, such a polished video!
Regarding the ATO system that PATCO uses the trains only can use this system when the rails are dry. If it's raining or snowing the trains will over shoot the stations in ATO mode. Therefore trains must be run in manual mode if the tracks are wet. This is because the EMU's do not have a sanding system to increase friction with the rails. I rode the system back when I lived in south Jersey from 1985 until 1996 and I'm not sure if this problem has been rectified. The Cherry Hill library used to have a large book containing plans for the three branch system as proposed back in the early 70's. As you mentioned the planned Glassboro LRT line will follow the proposed PATCO line. I'm guessing this will be an extension of the Riverline.
Interesting facts and didn't know this until now. I mostly viewed PATCO as the Philadelphian counterpart of PATH in terms of a rapid transit going between NJ and a major city along with subway connections; the only differences are the number of lines and underground coverage. PATCO is also the only metro rail to cross a suspension bridge outside of NYC.
I fantasise about that all the time. If I was rich, I would buy up as much brownfield land as I could, develop it as high density housing, and then sell the units off at below market rate to people that most needed them.
Love this. I use PATCO all the time and in the best way possible, a five minute walk to the Collingswood station. Like you mentioned, Collingswood/Haddonfield are the best stops in the NJ side. I was on a Woodbury page the other day and they were complaining about the proposed trainline, aka PATCO, going through Gloucester. So myoptic. IMO Collingswood is the best town in south Jersey and a part of that is the high speed line. They keep doing incremental changes but they are lagging in some aspects, like using your phone/Google pay/Apple Pay to go through kiosks, they still make you buy a refillable card, (also recent, the ability to get a card that automatically refills when low, and works on SEPTA subways.) Other recent addition are the countdowns to the next train hanging at each station, long over due, also, not always accurate, but very much welcomed. Only gripe I have with it is how loud the line is living 100' from it.
7:32 And what did Boston do? Change the whole framework of its commuter rail system to ALSO make it a park and ride. And again with the subway system too from Braintree to Wollaston to Malden Center and even in the core of Boston at Government Center.
Whoah blast from the past! I’m born and raised in south jersey but moved to London and saw “Patco” and was like wait WHOAH. That was how I got into Philly. Drive to a patco station in collingswood, park, ride for 3 bucks Also tame impala??? 10/10 taste but copyright issue?
I moved from Philly to Erie 8 years ago and you Philly transit videos make me homesick like little else does. I never owned a car while living in Philly. Now in Erie I am chained to it.
I love the PATCO high speed line. It is clean, fast and provides round the clock service. For me it also had me riding the old PRSL RDC trains to Atlantic City, Ocean City, Wildwood and Cape May. One other thing not mentioned in the video was the fact at most of the park and ride stations there were many NJT busses that servered the towns and malls near the PATCO stations. So the line did provide extended public transportation to many South Jersey areas that now provided faster rides into Camden or Philadelphia verses riding the bus all the way.
I grew up in SEPTA territory, but I would often go into the city to meetup with friends from all over the region, including those from South Jersey who took the Patco. Never taken it myself but it's awesome that it connected South Jersey to the Philly region in such an accessible way. None of the folks in my friends group, me included, drove into Philly to meetup more than a couple times because driving and parking in the city is such a miserable experience. Even before I was anti-car like I am now, Septa and Patco were just clearly the superior options to travel to the city.
Dude this is crazy, I just searched your channel to see if youve made a video on the PATCO line, I refresh my page and here it is. Posted 15 minutes ago.
Great video. Grew up and currently live in the SJ suburbs you and I really don’t like. However, I love taking 295 to Woodcrest station to go to Center city. It’s the most convenient way. I live only a couple miles from the River Line which has a connection with PATCO. If time is a concern (usually the case), the fastest way is to take 295 to Woodcrest rather than the slow River Line. I wish Woodcrest had a bathroom. I took my son there to take a trip to Philly. He had to take a dump and there was nowhere to go.
Just found your channel today, Alan. I love the content. For the record - I have heard of PATCO. I have to take it to Philadelphia tomorrow from the Lindenwold station for a doctor’s appointment. I enjoy riding the PATCO, although it’s annoying when I have to switch from one route to another in Camden. I am a native of Philly, but a 30 year resident of South Jersey currently. We need more public train transit. Instead - in my area of NJ, we have pulled tracks out in order to have made way for the rails-to-trails thing that has been forgotten and remains unused and unkempt. I miss the sound of the distant train horns that used to bellow through the night skies on hot summers nights when my windows were open. The tracks could have been left in and revived later, but no. No chance of bringing rails back to my area of NJ.
Very interesting! A lot of aspects of PATCO seem similar to the Montreal REM, which is also taking over a former commuter rail line and turning it into an automated metro, which will have wide stop-spacing allowing for greater commercial speeds than on existing metro lines. On the other hand (but also similar to PATCO), some suburban REM stations seem like they will have more area dedicated to parking than is really necessary.
I live in Westmont, NJ one of the stops on the PATCO. It’s still going strong today. A great convenience to the people who live or work in South Jersey.
I loved using this when i lived in Burlco, was handy to use on the weekend to visit philly. the park and ride was good for coming out of a car centered heckhole of south jersey exurbs.
I lived in Northeast Philly in the 80s and my best friend went to Glassboro. More than a few times I found myself drunk on the floor of his house with no way to get home. Then I discovered that I could take a cab to Lindenwold, take PATCO to 8th & Market and get on the El to NE Philly. It saved me a few times.
Good video, but wasn't balloon framing not done in the 1960s? I believe after WW2 or so they realized the fire risks associated with having the frame run from basement to attic and moved on to platform framing which was faster than the balloon framing you mentioned around 6:30 I could be wrong on it though I just remember looking into it a bit when it came to real estate.
Former DVRPC employee here (office of travel modeling from September 2017 - October 2021--I actually commuted on PATCO during my time there). DVRPC (along with most MPOs) doesn't actually have the legal authority to build anything. They can award funds for projects via grants and the TIP but those need to be applied for. They can also advise municipalities on good development practices, but that's about it. I would recommend doing a bit more research before making such assertions in order to prevent yourself from getting into trouble in the future.
In slight defense of BART, there's HELLA new housing in front of the station you showed on Google Maps. Still building more and more 5 over 1s and 6 over 1s
My dad and I rode from Lindenwold to Broadway, Camden on the soft opening day, Jan.4, 1969. I also rode on the Grand Opening day to Philly, Feb. 15, 1969. I boarded at Ferry Avenue Station. In the center track they had a train with a private party. This was for the kids of PATCO employees. The front door of the first car was open. I could hear a radio reporter talking into his tape recorder saying "This is so-and-so reporting for the Voice of America". He took one look at me on the platform and closed the door.
Of the seven subway systems built in the USA between the opening of PATCO and the present day, the Washington subway system is the only one to be completed according to original plans. The Miami, Atlanta and San Francisco subways were expanded to different plans than originally envisaged, the Los Angeles system had some of its lines built as light rail, and Baltimore and San Juan had most of their plans shelved, although one of the Baltimore lines was built eventually as light rail.
I absolutely adore your channel. This might be my new favorite TH-cam video. Besides the good editing and music and footage and all I love youre covering the nerdy train and urbanism content... IN MY HOME AREA! SO good!! I can't wait for the rest of the train videos about So Jo
Living in Pitman it's so sad what could have been. If I want to go into Philly I have to drive to a PATCO station which is 30 minutes away or take a bus which takes forever.
Next time I visit Philly I plan to ride PATCO. It sounds like a fascinating system. Too bad they never expanded it more. It should be. Thanks for the video.
That map at 3:00, being from moorestown, it’s a shame only NS trains use the map, would be so easy to commute to Philly, now I gotta drive to woodcrest or into Camden park and then take the train
I rode the PATCO from Camden into Philadelphia twice a week for the summer of 1977 when I was 13. Loved it! The best part was being able to SIT IN THE VERY FRONT (next to the operator's booth) and LOOK STRAIGHT OUT at the rail ahead! No other metro line I know of allows one to do that.
I always wonder what killed the passenger train service to Woodbury when I was little. The proposed GCL will be a failure if it is every built. Just like the River Line, 1) you must change trains in Camden to continue onto Philadelphia, Trenton, or Atlantic City; 2) the train doesn't go where the jobs nor where shopping is available in NJ; 3) On the NJ side it will basically only take between campuses in Glassboro and Camden with the County Court house in between which does nothing for the rest of the county; 4) Center City Philadelphia is no safer than Camden is now. Even Wawa is giving up.
I remember riding on the Patco line as a kid, from Lindenwold to Philadelphia. Probably several times, all before 1990, unless I was on it after then, but have no real memories of it. Also, we moved from Cherrywood in Gloucester Twp to Medford in 1996, and it sure would have been nice if the Patco line went out to Medford.
pretty convoluted if say you wanna go from Newark to Atlantic City, needing two or 3 different transit lines to go a destination in the same state which a much smaller distance than I can go with the MTA, 3 different services but the same agency can get you all over 3 different areas of NY and CT, makes me not take it for granted considering this
The casinos used to pay NJT to run an express train called ACES from New York Penn to Atlantic City stopping only in Newark, with a snack bar and everything you'd expect on Amtrak. It even skipped Philly, as it turned off at Frankford Junction straight to Atlantic City instead of backing out of 30th Street. Unfortunately, it didn't get them enough ridership, and they quit paying for it. Now, you would probably take the 319 NJT express coach bus nonstop from Newark to Atlantic City. To be honest though, most of New Jersey sucks ass, and their transit once you leave the rail lines sucks too. That said, Jersey City is fucking amazing. It probably has the best urbanist initiative anywhere in the US.
Historical note: PATCO's design was greatly influenced by the Philadelphia and Western (P&W) interurban rail line that now runs as SEPTA's Norristown High Speed* Line. In fact shortly after PATCO opened, CBS News broadcast a short documentary about the two systems on national TV. Both systems are fully grade-separated, have third-rail power, and constructed to full passenger railroad standards. The differences of course are that PATCO operates much longer trains and is more automated than the P&W, which opened some 60+ years earlier. In the early 1970s there were proposals to connect the two systems by tunnelling under Chestnut Street, then using the old PRR Cardington branch tracks that ran to Upper Darby. If it had been built the connection would have fulfilled the P&W's early plans to provide cross-city service, and would have offered a seamless connection across both states. Of course, this being the Philly area nothing every came of the idea. (*) Under SEPTA's ownership, the words _high speed_ should be in quotes. The route now runs about half as fast as it did in the Red Arrow days.
Love the PATCO and appreciate you shouting out Collingswood and Haddonfield. Both have awesome walkable downtown areas and I highly recommend that people check them out if they're in the area, I liked them so much that I moved over here.
I have nothing against Park and Rides, so long as they aren't paved, People in rural areas need connections to their closest towns and cities, and if that means park and rides on the last stops of Bus and Train lines, I see no problem with it.
Yeah, I think PATCO's are pretty forgivable considering it *does* stop in walkable places in Camden, Collingswood, Westmont, and Haddonfield. The rest of the towns past that don't really have a walkable downtown to start with, so driving to the train is really the only option anyway.
You can put a stop in rural areas without covering it in parking space. There are many rural small towns across America with little downtowns with denser development, those are great places to put a stop as they already have space for parking for anyone outside and the stop is closer to the most amount of people.
@@macgobhann8712 Then it is not a rural area, it is a small town, when I say Rural Area, I mean Farms, Forests, Mines etc scattered buildings that do not form a town. Those areas need park and rides, small towns can exist on their own, or have a transit stop without parking if they so choose.
Im from South Jersey! I never knew about this. Now I miss my hometown even more 🥲 But it’s true what a missed opportunity. It definitely could’ve connected to more cities. I’m from the city next to Lidenwold. I liked the PATCO because it meant not having to pay for parking in Center City, but it would’ve been nice to not have to drive to the Lindenwold station or wait for a bus to take me there.
I came over from London to ride the NJ Transit River Line a few days after it opened. When I arrived in Camden I then rode PATCO to Philadelphia; what a confusing place for transport that city is. I knew that PATCO was about the same age as the Victoria Line, but if it opened in 1969 then that was not three years after the Victoria Line which opened in stages between 1968 and 1971. I’m not sure about the date for Pimlico which was an extra station opened slightly later. The original trains on the Victoria Line were known as 1967 stock, but that was when they were built, not when they entered service. The Victoria Line was mot the first place in London to see automatic train operation; the system was first tried out on the section of the Central Line between Woodford and Hainalt. I don’t know when that trial started, but I did ride an automatic train on that line. What is the closed station which PATCO trains pass through just after coming off the bridge on the Philadelphia side.
Franklin Square is the name of that station. It is currently undergoing refurbishment to reopen for the fourth time in its history within the next few years.
And just a few months after PATCO, in June 1969, Paris metro line 11 (which was also the first metro line in the world to run on rubber-tyres in 1956) was fully equipped with automatic train operation. But trials had been ongoing on the line with 2 of the 17 trains since 1967 before the full implementation in 1969… so I don’t know who can really be considered to be the first line to run with ATO…
Patco is a great way to get into Philly from South Jersey. Very well connected and the ride over the Ben Franklin Bridge is really cool. Its well kept up too and has advanced technology for the time it went into service. I do think the park and ride situation, especially the stations further out like Woodcrest were designed to serve highways rather than communities nearby. Transit villages are seriously lacking on the entirety of Patco. Have you thought of doing a video on the River Line? Not only is that an interesting rail system in South Jersey because it's one of the only few diesel light rails in the country but it's well connected to downtown areas like Burlington and Riverside and improved connectivity with most of South Jersey and the services that go into Philly and the rest of South Jersey as well as the northeast corridor line. It was one of the few transit projects that came into fruition that were proposed in the 1990s and helped provide a clean, frequent, and affordable link for most of the riverfront communIties between Trenton and Camden, which some were transit deserts for quite a while. It also runs along the former Camden and Amboy Railroad which is something I highly recommend for another video too.
MBTA's South South extension of the Red Line was built in a similar model as PATCO as a quasi-interurban and the No.1 (01500/01600) cars from 1969 also have a suburban interior configuration.
I might just be speaking from my local point of view.. But I think it's a good idea for terminal subways stations to have parking garages. Outside of Boston, it makes it so much easier to just park your car, and take the train the rest of the way. I don't think it's a good idea for parking garages to be at every single station, that's a waste of space, but for those of us who don't live near a train station, a park and ride lot is our only option. The closest train station for me to get into Boston is 30 minutes away. I live in southern Plymouth (The Plymouth or Kingston stations, and the Middleboro station are about the same distance), and the Buzzards Bay train station is about 10 to 15 minutes away, however there is no convenient time to catch the train into Boston, only 3 trains a week and they're all late at night, getting onto the cape is easier tho. That's my take on the whole parking conundrum.
My one problem with this now is just that it hasnt been expanded. I wish that it would be expanded both in south jersey/around camden and in philly. Id love to see it go near the hospitals/30th street and maybe go to the airport or connect with a line that goes there
This was super cool to check out - I’m a fellow South Jersey native and knew Bill Vigrass personally (we both were ushers together at the same church), such a great wealth of knowledge and I’m glad you were able to capture some of that history here!
Fun fact: The PATCO was actually going to be longer than it is today. They were going to have it go through places like Mount Holly, moorestown, etc but they didn't cause of racism, not just funding. Still today when you ask residents if they should add in a train line they still have the EXACT SAME EXCUSES. I lived in moorestown and man, those people are stuck in their ways. They ironically use Haddonfield as an example as to why there shouldn't be any passenger train lines. Even though, that town is doing wayyy better than Moorestown in basically every category. They still trying to stop a FEDERAL ORDER to put in an affordable housing project. One of these days there will be a passenger train line put in again along the Cherry hill line and those people stuck in their ways will just have to deal with it or move or just die off (There's lots of old people in Moorestown). As much as I don't like NJ, if I had the money I would've moved to Haddonfield or Collingwood. They r more walkable with decent transportation options. But unfortunately I couldn't afford it and am currently living in rural western pa where there's barely a functioning bus line. I'll eventually move to Philly if not Lancaster in the near future. I miss my trains.
In Oct. 1969 my cousin came to visit us from Japan. He was a missionary for his church and was on a speaking tour. We rode the brand new Speed Line from Lindenwold to Philly. He was impressed. It reminded him of the excellent train service throughout Japan. He said he almost expected the operator to make his announcements in Japanese.
that is definitely a good compliment. Japan has amazing trains.
No question, I've toured Tokyo.
@@greenmachine5600 given how bad the train network treats its workers though? It shouldn't be all that praised.
@@TheTrueAdept they don’t? Taxis are far more worst in terms of taking care of their personnel’s
@@barbatosjaegar6838 no, _TAXIS_ treat their personnel better than Japanese railroads.
One of Japan's worst train accidents revealed that to the world.
Thanks for your continuing efforts to convince us all that Philly is great... Even the city govt doesn't try to do that.
I feel the exact same way! Listening to Alan I keep thinking 'wow, Philadelphia really sounds great, might be worth a visit, why has nobody told me that before?'
I went to Philly last fall and it was absolutely horrible. I’m mostly concerned about safety to be honest. NYC while not perfect is much better in my opinion.
Philly is an awesome city and one of the few non car dependent cities in America but it is held down by the homelessness and crime. Philly, LA, Chicago, and NYC all need to take a page out of Houstons book and clean themselves up.
@@vyros.3234 Houston crime is arguably worse than NYC, at least when you are comparing fairly (per capita). In Philly, it's pretty easy to stay out of the neighborhoods with high crime if you do even a tiny bit of research before visiting.
Philadelphia is a ghetto shithole
It's heartbreaking to know we could've had PATCO service all over SJ. There are so many rail lines already laid down and so many train-stations-turned-museums/cafes all over the region. The area was built with and for rail service. My home town is literally named after a train station. I cry about this in my car daily.
The politics of both North & South Jersey are TERRIBLE when it comes to discussions of transportation needs. Traffic jams are the norm including the rising gas prices that goes with it as well.
It sucks that north jersey has so many more options than us!
When I lived in Moorestown and Collingswood i would have LOVED a commuter option to mount laurel, but we are stuck with spread out office parks, and non walkable, and the depressing stretch that is Route 38.
You cry about this in your car daily?
FOR REAL! I live in medford and see the lines of these old abandoned rail lines all over this side of the state and cant help but feel a bit sad that none of them are in use anymore save for the AC line. I wish that if i wanted to go see my friends at rowan or rutgers i could hop on a train in MY OWN TOWN and arrive in glassboro on one instead of sitting in the traffic hell that is cross keyes road. It really makes me sad. Hopefully one day.. but i doubt it
@@christopherkraemer4023The glassboro Camden line might be a big help with that!! It's a slow roll but i have hope for south jersey
I rode from Lindenwold to Broadway, Camden on the very first PATCO train, on the opening day, Jan.4, 1969. I was the second person in line to pay my fare in an old red Johnson fare box. The automated fare gates were not working yet. I sat in the first seat on the first train and I was interviewed by several radio stations. I took color movies of the ribbon cutting and the first day trains. At the 50th Anniversary event in 2019, I was given the honor to cut the cake and I got the first slice. I also rode on the Grand Opening day to Philly, Feb. 15, 1969. And I rode on the last Bridge Line train from Camden to Philadelphia.
When I attended the BART ribbon cutting ceremony, I stood three feet from San Francisco Mayor Joseph Alioto when he cut the ribbon. I filmed the event and rode the first train. I took color movies of the first day trains and the crowds waiting to board them. At the public ceremony, it was announced that BART was the first automated rapid transit system. I blurted out loud enough to be heard, "What about PATCO". They exclaimed Shhhhhh !! LOL I was given a write up by the San Francisco Examiner, along with a photo of me, telling of my 3,000 mile trip to ride the first BART train.
Interesting!
Do you still have the film? You should digitize it (if you haven't already and archive it online)
PATCO also operates 24 hours a day making it Philly's only underground train service to run overnight since they moved the BSL and MFL Owl services to bus routes.
24 hours??? Yooo I wish we had that
@@GeneralLiuofBoston1911 Philly subways used to run overnight up until a few years ago, but with pretty limited service and the El was definitely sketchy. My comment is more of a technicality/fun fact rather than something that's actual useful for Philly reaidents as PATCO isn't helpful for traversing Philly and really only gets you to or from Jersey.
@@tonytwostep_ definitely actually useful when you're drunk, from NJ, and trying to get home lol
@@ThePokeman25 can't argue with that use-case lmao
@Joseph didn't think of that, good call
I adore the PATCO. I took it into Philly every day when I was living in Haddonfield and working at Jefferson Hopsital. It set an impossible standard that no train could ever reach in my new home of Pittsburgh 😂
Edit: Also, I just want to echo Alan’s praise of Haddonfield and Collingswood. It’s well worth the trip outside of the city for the food and the shopping in a cute colonial-style town. Highly recommend the El Jefe sandwich at Crumb on Kings Highway.
The T could be so much better…it just needs to go more places
@@BiggusJakeus For sure. It’s funny because I’m some ways, the Ts a lot like PATCO. A largely linear train line that shuttles people in from the surrounding suburbs to a downtown where people work and go for entertainment.
But as someone who lives within the city, it gives me almost no reason to use it to leave. 😂
My condolences for having to work at that hellhole
Lived all my life in haddonfield, PATCO is just the best
I grew up in SJ and honestly didn't know how spoiled I was by PATCO. I had been house hunting on the PA side, and when you check SEPTA commuter rails (Philly/PA train service) - service stops at like... 11pm. PATCO runs all night. The trains seem to be up kept better as well (SEPTA routinely smells like urine imo 😭)
I hope the proposed lines heading south come to fruition. If you want to live in a town where you can easily take transit to Philly, you have so few options. Ty for the SJ love!!
Septa more like septic
My favorite irony about the PATCO is that despite being very advanced, aesthetically it looks very retro to me (quite possibly because, being so well designed at the time, the system hasn't needed that many extensive upgrades, preserving more of the original fabric of the line)
If they ever DO expand (incl. New rolling stock) i really hope they retain that arsthetic as well as saving money by keeping it simple
Thats because it's effectively using the same railcars that it used in the 60s. They weren't even updated until around 2015.
Why are you saying it's retro like it's a bad thing? I actually I love it's aesthetic (but that's probably because I like the classic retro look of American Metro trains and not really that modern look that you would see in Europe or Asia).
@@Machodave2020 it's not a bad thing, just a striking contrast! I like the look of the PATCO as well
@@Machodave2020 I do too. Just pointing it out these are far from new.
We need more PATCOs across the continent, for real.
But with less parking and more TOD
@@johnanders2739 yes i agree
Somebody in the 50s and 60s should have had that vision. Didn't any US generals avail themselves of the S-Bahn in Berlin???
@@edwardmiessner6502 yeah center city tunnel is based on it. LA doing the same
Let's start with extending the actual PATCO from 1 to 3 lines like in the original plan.
Glad to know that my official diagnosis for the Atlantic City Line from Fixing Your Branch Line sounded so outrageous that you decided to make an entire video defending PATCO instead of converting it to heavy rail.
But in all seriousness, great editing for this video, and nice to see you were able to interview a well known PATCO historian. Interesting to see that PATCO wanted to construct lines on pretty much every other rail line going into Camden, although I would think this could prose some problems for heavy rail double tracking and rail spur access for local freights. Can't wait for more coverage on South Jersey in the future! (And thanks for not roasting me in the vid btw)
It would also have posed problems for the bridge line and subway if frequencies along any branch would be more often than once every 10 minutes.
@@edwardmiessner6502 So long as they tried to feed everything into Philly, sure. Having some direct connections between the branches could help to alleviate some of those problems _in addition to_ making usable suburb-to-suburb connections.
To be honest, I never really considered New Jersey to be the hub for innovation. But after seeing your videos, I am beginning to think I should take a trip out there.
We perpetuate the myth that this is a bad place mostly to keep gentrifiers away, though it really isn't working all that well anymore. Not even Jersey Shore succeeded for long. Hell, not even re-electing Chris Christie worked, and we nearly flushed our entire transit system down the toilet when we committed to the bit on that one.
This channel is filled with pro-New Jersey propaganda, don't believe his silver tongue /s
Me too. It seems worth the visit.
@@de-fault_de-fault committed to the bit hahaha.
New Jersey was home to the original silicon valley. The transistor was pioneered at Bell Labs! Plus many many other discoveries...
The lower amount of density of stops makes me think PATCO more of a rapid transit suburban train like the RER, Crossrail and S-Bahn than the Paris Metro, London Underground and U-Bahn, especially since the trains connected two different termini which only became connected with each other thanks to a rapid transit service.
It's also certainly interesting to see how old automated trains are. You sometimes never know that even seemingly "modern" developments were developed decades ago.
Yea the automation surprised me too. Definitely wouldn’t have guessed that it’s been around that long!
It's even decades older than that! PATCO's automation is built on top of well-proven technology from the 1920s: pulse code signals inductively picked up through the rails.
PATCO makes getting to Philadelphia easier from NJ than from the Philly surburbs.
You can get from Collingswood to center city faster than rail lines from neighborhoods actually in the city itself (Manayunk, Chestnut Hill).
Yes, so true and sad. I limit my dating to ten miles on the PA side, there just isn't an easy way to get to a lot of neighborhoods in North Philly via rails, and I hate driving into the city.
It's also cheaper, when taking parking into consideration.
Well, parts of NJ, namely the Lindenwold line. It would be even better for commuting from South Jersey to Philly if PATCO stuck to the original 3 line plan. Adding the Moorestown and Woodbury Heights lines could have doubled or tripled rail capacity to south jersey and taken that many more cars off the roads (I-295, NJ-42 and NJ-55). And I still think that minimally just a second electrified potentially > 50% solar, grade separated heavy rail PATCO line is preferable to the proposed at-grade, diesel Glassboro-Camden light rail line.
@@SP1CEANDW0LF I mean that does sound awful in terms of rail travel, but it is not at all inaccurate to say that Collingswood is quite literally geographically closer to Center City than either of those neighborhoods are
I can remember as a little kid when Kings Highway in Haddonfield was dug up to put in the tracks and station for the High Speed Line. The trains had a unique sound to them compared to the old diesel locomotives that ran through town. I used the line often to commute to Drexel University in Philly and now as a senior I admire the vision and commitment planners had in the 1960s to make this work. It is remarkable the system had only one station addition (Woodcrest) but no further extensions. Thank you for the great trip down memory lane!
PATCO has gotten me into South Jersey without a car, which felt like a feat when I look at how south jersey is... so thank you, PATCO
I love the ambition of engineers at this time to try to solve the problems they saw with transport. Even though it doesn't solve the problems we need solved today, it's just one small change to get there. I think the same thing about WMATA, MARTA and BART. Really great pieces of underused infrastructure.
Even if the end product was not the greatest according to modern urbanism standards, at least they had vision and they built big. Today it takes 20 years and 20 trillion dollars to build one new line!
@@pepperpillow nah, we can still build things. It's getting the political will to do so.
@@UrbanJerseyGuy I think that marketing also plays a huge part in this. Germany doesn't do a good job marketing major projects and usually ends up developing opposition movements as a result. The US is better at marketing in general, but always enough to create political will.
A little bit of context here:
The US is the exact country where automatic train operation (ATO) was invented. To acheive automatic operation, you'll need an underlying protection system in the first place - the automatic train protection or the ATP - so that whenever ATO attempts to do something deemed unsafe, the ATP will alway safely intervene, usually by bringing the train to a full stop.
The earliest railway ATP also came from the US. It has something called "cab signalling" in its core, which was invented by engineers at Union Switch & Signal (US&S) in ~ 1920s, when they realized that the electric currents sent to running rails for train detection (track circuits) may also be modulated to carry vital signal indications from wayside signal boxes to trains. Meanwhile, the ICC required railways to have some sort of automatic protection. Some big railways, like the Pennsylvania Railroad, tried this new technology, and found it to be so reliable that with cab signalling, you can actually eliminate most wayside signals!
Initially, power frequency current was used as the carrier of cab signalling. Upon invention, this type of cab signalling soon found its place on mainline railways in the US, especially in the northeast region. Passenger railways like Amtrak, LIRR, MNR, SEPTA, MBTA, still use this form of cab signalling today. Both PATCO and London's first semi-automatic underground line - the Victoria Line opened in 1969 - laid their foundation of automation on this service hardened yet a little bit antiquated technology.
But major signal vendors in the US had been far more aggressive. In early 1950s, they found a better cab signal carrier: audio frequency current. Audio frequency currents eliminate most labor intensive inspections of rail insulation joints, are much less vulnerable to traction current interference, and are able to carry more information. These advantages naturally lead to preference over power frequency cab signalling among later transit expansion projects in the US. When SF decided to build its BART with most advanced signalling solutions, many vendors made their bids. The US&S's solution was based on audio frequency cab signalling, which enabled semi-automatic operation and dispatching. They lost the bid, but later provided a similar solution for Montreal's Expo Express, making the latter first railway in the world to run automatic trains.
The advancement in electronics pushes US-origin, "track circuit" based cab signalling and automatic train control to the apex from 1970s to 1980s, when the MBTA and CTA resignalled their heavy rails with audio frequency track circuits (so theoretically they can run semi-automatic trains but they don't), while the BART, WMATA, Baltimore MTA and MARTA built new semi-automatic heavy rails with them, until free space communication based train control (CBTC) went into the arena in late 1980s.
While CBTC has been increasingly competitve, track circuit based automatic train control remained somewhat popular in the following decades to come. Taipei Metro contracted General Railway Signal (GRS) to provide signalling for their high-capacity lines; Shanghai Metro Line 1 also has GRS supplied signal systems, very similar to those designed for MARTA. LACMTA's Green Line, opened in 1995, has US&S's "next generation" audio frequency cab signalling that encodes digital signal indications instead of analog ones. In 2002, Copenhagen opened a fully-automatic, 24/7 light metro. Its signalling is not CBTC, but the same track-circuit based system US&S installed on LACMTA's Green Line! Contrary to popular belief, CBTC is NOT the prerequisite for full automation.
If you are interested in pre-CBTA era railway automation, you may refer to the following 1976 report by Princeton: ota.fas.org/reports/7614.pdf
Great write up! Another thing to consider is that CBTC doesn't come "out of the box" with broken rail detection like AF track circuits do, which, IMO, should be mandatory.
When I worked at the TTC I recall the 'Big' boss waxing poetic and lauding this line and the features built into it.
I took the time to check it out for myself by riding the front seat and photographing it in the mid 80s and must agree, that this was indeed cutting technology and the best part, unlike most space age applications to transit, was as reliable as could/should be.
Bill Vigrass' commentary on the traction motor early failures reminded me of the Philadelphia and Western's high speed line and the similar early maintenance needs of the 'Bullet' car motors. Cutting the traction power voltage from the unusual 750 volts to the more common 600 solved the problem, but one could still experience the forces on acceleration of being pressed back into the seat cushions. Must have been something else with the full 750.
I must admit, that I like the P&W the best of all like demographic serving lines although with the PATCO's subway under downtown it is one step ahead in that detail.
Thank you for this documentary review Alan. I did enjoy it thoroughly.
I live on the Westmont stop and I learned a few things from this video, well done. Patco is easily the best line I've been on in the US. I go to Temple in North Philly and I was able to get to my job in haddonfield late at night, easily, using bsl and patco. The patco cars are still the cleanest piece of publicly owned property in Philadelphia. The single thing that the city is doing wrong, if you ask me, is that they have allowed a homeless encampment to persist in the underground concourse between the patco and Philly's primary subway line (broad Street line) for at least the past two years. I've talked to a number of people who've specifically told me that this has discouraged them from taking the train. I think if we love public transport then we should agree that allowing such things to go on which actively make less popular its use and more popular the use of cars is a bad thing. Our city's government has been doing poorly for a while now though, and there other reasons why nothing is done about it. Again great video, learned a lot about the history.
My brother used to live over on Locust ave in Westmont
Ah that's a cool spot. Three of my buddies live on emerald right near there.
I agree except for one thing, The City did not allow the homeless encampment. The city has tried many times to clean up the tunnels. After an agreement was made with Septa & Patco,The tunnels are closed and gated off to discourage the homeless. I have to now walk up the steps and down Locust Street and back down the steps to enter the BSL.
@Joseph I worked for OHS for many years before now working for PATCO. I have worked the tunnels attempting to enroll the homeless into shelters. There are plenty of beds available, but many don't want to go as they will not be able to do drugs and must follow shelter guidelines. I also watch the Septa/Phila police do sweeps every morning in the tunnels and 1 hr later the people are back. These aren't homeless people, these are drug abusers that do not want help and not willing to enter treatment. You cannot kick people out of a public space, but you can limit access which is what the city/Patco is doing. E.G The maze of tunnels from 18th and Market to Walnut/Locust.
@@ozgreen2843 I was a heroin addict in Camden and Philly and got sober back when heroin was still heroin. That said, back in 2013, nobody had the balls to just set up shop and start doing dope in a major thorofare in Center City. People didn't just to heroin and smoke crack en masse out in the open. They found abando's, back alleys, etc etc. What is happening in the subway tunnels and in the entire neighborhood of Kensington is unprecedented and was never like that back in 2013. Something has to give and the city really needs to find a way to step up enforcement and actually discourage what is happening.
PATCO is definitely in the BART/MARTA/Washington Metro model of commuter rail-esque subway service, systems especially like the NY subway (and Philly's Broad St Line and some of the L lines) had a "hybrid" model of frequently spaced stops in neighborhoods along with express services to get people quickly to the city center. PATCO roughly covers the distance from Lower Manhattan to South Brooklyn, which is covered by multiple express services.
Having only recently traveled on most modes of public transport in the Philadelphia area, I do have to say that the transit in that area is severely underrated. Good video!
Keep in mind the DVRPC has no real legal power as far as land use goes. They can just urge municipalities to do something; municipalities frequently ignore these urgings.
I love this video. A South Jersey native, I have been riding this train since 1977. We use it quite frequently to go into Center City. It's so convenient.
The house I grew up in, in Westmont, backed up against the Speedline tracks, and I've logged more commuter hours on the Speedline than any other public transit. Thanks for helping me justify my soft spot for this train.
It can still be great. We need to treat Philly like a German city and build out the regional rail and patco systems in manners similar to the Munich S bahn. The downtown tunnels (aka the hard work) are already done, signaling and high floor platforms are what remain
PATCo definitely needs to be integrated with SEPTA fares as well. Having a separate fare system for a single metro line is silly. Add NJT as well and any other prominent operators in greater Philadelphia.
@Joseph Being a software-development supervisor (for an unrelated company) I watched the Key disaster unfold from its beginnings in the 1990s. SEPTA violated almost every basic design principle in the book:
- as you mentioned, they didn't go with a proven vendor
- they refused to look at other cities' best (and worst) practices
- instead of starting with a clean slate they decided that the Key should replicate the patchwork legacy fare system almost item for item. A LOT of resources were wasted duplicating quirks and inconsistencies that had crept in over the last 70 of so years.
There's a lot more but I'd be well into deep-geek mode.
Sucking up to the Krauts, are we?
There used to be 3 massive books including engineering diagrams and studies of the original PATCO line as well as the extensions to Atco and Glasborro at the Voorhees library. They were a little beat up in 1994 when I last reviewed them but would be worth a look if you're looking for more design information.
We need MORE trains in South Jersey
MOAR indeed
Agreed
I want all the trains. I live down toward Hammonton, so if I’m going to Philly and staying east of the Schuykill River, I take NJ Transit’s Atlantic City LineI get off in Lindenwold and take PATCO the rest of the way. If I’m west of the river or going further than Philly, I’ll stay on the ACL and got to 30th Street Station. The big problem is the gross mismatch in timetables between PATCO and NJT. PATCO runs 4-5 trains for every one of NJTs which makes transfers a huge headache.
@@johnzarubajr bruh the ACL runs like almost every 2 hours. Tgats even more painful. South Jersey just needs help in general
I agree. I live near a Riverline station and would like to take it to NYC, Philly or AC via connections but they stop running at 9PM to share with Conrail and I'm afraid of getting stuck.
errrr...preceding PATCO's, the Expo Express even outpaced the Victoria Line hailing the advent of automatic operation...the on-board operators signified cosmetics
I'm always happy when another Alan Fisher video comes out!
Went to school in Philly, had friends all over Jersey. Loved PATCO!!
I just want to say, this video is visually STUNNING, absolutely love the editing, especially in the intro section. Fantastic work, such a polished video!
I lived in south Jersey for 9 years 20-25 minutes from Philly and I rode PATCO very frequently. Such a wonderful resource.
Regarding the ATO system that PATCO uses the trains only can use this system when the rails are dry. If it's raining or snowing the trains will over shoot the stations in ATO mode. Therefore trains must be run in manual mode if the tracks are wet. This is because the EMU's do not have a sanding system to increase friction with the rails. I rode the system back when I lived in south Jersey from 1985 until 1996 and I'm not sure if this problem has been rectified.
The Cherry Hill library used to have a large book containing plans for the three branch system as proposed back in the early 70's. As you mentioned the planned Glassboro LRT line will follow the proposed PATCO line. I'm guessing this will be an extension of the Riverline.
ATO is still not used during rain or snow. Maybe when the fleet is updated
I grew up in Cherry Hill, NJ; this train was my childhood. This video was awesome
Love Patco
Would take it all the time to get to Philly from when I lived in New jersey
Interesting facts and didn't know this until now. I mostly viewed PATCO as the Philadelphian counterpart of PATH in terms of a rapid transit going between NJ and a major city along with subway connections; the only differences are the number of lines and underground coverage. PATCO is also the only metro rail to cross a suspension bridge outside of NYC.
I would've liked to do something like this if I was a multimillionaire
Ok, Bruce Wayne
I fantasise about that all the time. If I was rich, I would buy up as much brownfield land as I could, develop it as high density housing, and then sell the units off at below market rate to people that most needed them.
@@LightbulbTedbear2 With contracts so they can't be sold off and let, just to make sure that greedy sorts can't take advantage
I mean shouldn't just be run by the government in house without sub contractors..I think living in France is ruining me.
Love this. I use PATCO all the time and in the best way possible, a five minute walk to the Collingswood station. Like you mentioned, Collingswood/Haddonfield are the best stops in the NJ side. I was on a Woodbury page the other day and they were complaining about the proposed trainline, aka PATCO, going through Gloucester. So myoptic. IMO Collingswood is the best town in south Jersey and a part of that is the high speed line. They keep doing incremental changes but they are lagging in some aspects, like using your phone/Google pay/Apple Pay to go through kiosks, they still make you buy a refillable card, (also recent, the ability to get a card that automatically refills when low, and works on SEPTA subways.)
Other recent addition are the countdowns to the next train hanging at each station, long over due, also, not always accurate, but very much welcomed.
Only gripe I have with it is how loud the line is living 100' from it.
I'm going to Collingswood via PATCO later today!
7:32
And what did Boston do? Change the whole framework of its commuter rail system to ALSO make it a park and ride. And again with the subway system too from Braintree to Wollaston to Malden Center and even in the core of Boston at Government Center.
Whoah blast from the past! I’m born and raised in south jersey but moved to London and saw “Patco” and was like wait WHOAH. That was how I got into Philly. Drive to a patco station in collingswood, park, ride for 3 bucks
Also tame impala??? 10/10 taste but copyright issue?
I moved from Philly to Erie 8 years ago and you Philly transit videos make me homesick like little else does. I never owned a car while living in Philly. Now in Erie I am chained to it.
Erie deserves rail transit
I love the PATCO high speed line. It is clean, fast and provides round the clock service. For me it also had me riding the old PRSL RDC trains to Atlantic City, Ocean City, Wildwood and Cape May. One other thing not mentioned in the video was the fact at most of the park and ride stations there were many NJT busses that servered the towns and malls near the PATCO stations. So the line did provide extended public transportation to many South Jersey areas that now provided faster rides into Camden or Philadelphia verses riding the bus all the way.
As a Drexel commuter my senior year, I took this train daily! Very familiar, but wasn't aware of its place in history. Thanks for the awesome video!!!
I grew up in SEPTA territory, but I would often go into the city to meetup with friends from all over the region, including those from South Jersey who took the Patco. Never taken it myself but it's awesome that it connected South Jersey to the Philly region in such an accessible way. None of the folks in my friends group, me included, drove into Philly to meetup more than a couple times because driving and parking in the city is such a miserable experience. Even before I was anti-car like I am now, Septa and Patco were just clearly the superior options to travel to the city.
Dude this is crazy, I just searched your channel to see if youve made a video on the PATCO line, I refresh my page and here it is. Posted 15 minutes ago.
Great video. Grew up and currently live in the SJ suburbs you and I really don’t like. However, I love taking 295 to Woodcrest station to go to Center city. It’s the most convenient way. I live only a couple miles from the River Line which has a connection with PATCO. If time is a concern (usually the case), the fastest way is to take 295 to Woodcrest rather than the slow River Line.
I wish Woodcrest had a bathroom. I took my son there to take a trip to Philly. He had to take a dump and there was nowhere to go.
Just found your channel today, Alan. I love the content. For the record - I have heard of PATCO. I have to take it to Philadelphia tomorrow from the Lindenwold station for a doctor’s appointment. I enjoy riding the PATCO, although it’s annoying when I have to switch from one route to another in Camden. I am a native of Philly, but a 30 year resident of South Jersey currently. We need more public train transit. Instead - in my area of NJ, we have pulled tracks out in order to have made way for the rails-to-trails thing that has been forgotten and remains unused and unkempt.
I miss the sound of the distant train horns that used to bellow through the night skies on hot summers nights when my windows were open. The tracks could have been left in and revived later, but no. No chance of bringing rails back to my area of NJ.
when this guy uploads it makes my day way better
Very interesting! A lot of aspects of PATCO seem similar to the Montreal REM, which is also taking over a former commuter rail line and turning it into an automated metro, which will have wide stop-spacing allowing for greater commercial speeds than on existing metro lines. On the other hand (but also similar to PATCO), some suburban REM stations seem like they will have more area dedicated to parking than is really necessary.
I live in Westmont, NJ one of the stops on the PATCO. It’s still going strong today. A great convenience to the people who live or work in South Jersey.
I loved using this when i lived in Burlco, was handy to use on the weekend to visit philly. the park and ride was good for coming out of a car centered heckhole of south jersey exurbs.
I lived in Northeast Philly in the 80s and my best friend went to Glassboro. More than a few times I found myself drunk on the floor of his house with no way to get home. Then I discovered that I could take a cab to Lindenwold, take PATCO to 8th & Market and get on the El to NE Philly. It saved me a few times.
I love crossing the Ben Franklin toward Jersey on a summer night, when the fireworks are going over in Camden. It's a cool sight from the train.
The station at 7:21 (woodcrest), they just built a bunch of mid rise apartments that are a 5-10 min walk just down the road
Good video, but wasn't balloon framing not done in the 1960s? I believe after WW2 or so they realized the fire risks associated with having the frame run from basement to attic and moved on to platform framing which was faster than the balloon framing you mentioned around 6:30 I could be wrong on it though I just remember looking into it a bit when it came to real estate.
I'm visiting Philly this week, I'll be sure to ride the red line! Thanks for the consistently great train content 🚉
Former DVRPC employee here (office of travel modeling from September 2017 - October 2021--I actually commuted on PATCO during my time there). DVRPC (along with most MPOs) doesn't actually have the legal authority to build anything. They can award funds for projects via grants and the TIP but those need to be applied for. They can also advise municipalities on good development practices, but that's about it. I would recommend doing a bit more research before making such assertions in order to prevent yourself from getting into trouble in the future.
In slight defense of BART, there's HELLA new housing in front of the station you showed on Google Maps. Still building more and more 5 over 1s and 6 over 1s
My dad and I rode from Lindenwold to Broadway, Camden on the soft opening day, Jan.4, 1969. I also rode on the Grand Opening day to Philly, Feb. 15, 1969. I boarded at Ferry Avenue Station. In the center track they had a train with a private party. This was for the kids of PATCO employees. The front door of the first car was open. I could hear a radio reporter talking into his tape recorder saying "This is so-and-so reporting for the Voice of America". He took one look at me on the platform and closed the door.
My recollection is that on January 4, 1969, it was raining heavily.
6:36 suburbs are like a mass produced product concerned with quantity not quality
Of the seven subway systems built in the USA between the opening of PATCO and the present day, the Washington subway system is the only one to be completed according to original plans. The Miami, Atlanta and San Francisco subways were expanded to different plans than originally envisaged, the Los Angeles system had some of its lines built as light rail, and Baltimore and San Juan had most of their plans shelved, although one of the Baltimore lines was built eventually as light rail.
SJ resident here. GCL needs to happen. if PATCO can do it all the better.
You showed the Collingswood parking lot but left out the fact that there’s a neighborhood across the tracks opposite the parking lots.
PATCO is a great system! I love the refurbs on their trains, they look phenomenal
The first automated metro in North America was the temporary Expo Express in Montréal. It used a heavily modified version of the TTC’s H1 subway cars.
I absolutely adore your channel. This might be my new favorite TH-cam video. Besides the good editing and music and footage and all I love youre covering the nerdy train and urbanism content... IN MY HOME AREA! SO good!! I can't wait for the rest of the train videos about So Jo
Took the patco every day when I interned in Philly one summer. Love that train, though ridership definitely took a big hit during the height of covid.
5:52 "prematurely break down early"
Yes, because most stuff that breaks down prematurely does that later.
Living in Pitman it's so sad what could have been. If I want to go into Philly I have to drive to a PATCO station which is 30 minutes away or take a bus which takes forever.
Next time I visit Philly I plan to ride PATCO. It sounds like a fascinating system. Too bad they never expanded it more. It should be. Thanks for the video.
That map at 3:00, being from moorestown, it’s a shame only NS trains use the map, would be so easy to commute to Philly, now I gotta drive to woodcrest or into Camden park and then take the train
I rode the PATCO from Camden into Philadelphia twice a week for the summer of 1977 when I was 13. Loved it!
The best part was being able to SIT IN THE VERY FRONT (next to the operator's booth) and LOOK STRAIGHT OUT
at the rail ahead! No other metro line I know of allows one to do that.
I always wonder what killed the passenger train service to Woodbury when I was little.
The proposed GCL will be a failure if it is every built. Just like the River Line, 1) you must change trains in Camden to continue onto Philadelphia, Trenton, or Atlantic City; 2) the train doesn't go where the jobs nor where shopping is available in NJ; 3) On the NJ side it will basically only take between campuses in Glassboro and Camden with the County Court house in between which does nothing for the rest of the county; 4) Center City Philadelphia is no safer than Camden is now. Even Wawa is giving up.
You and Not just bikes inspired me to make a urbanist tiktok. I am addicted to orange pilling everyone now.
I remember riding on the Patco line as a kid, from Lindenwold to Philadelphia. Probably several times, all before 1990, unless I was on it after then, but have no real memories of it. Also, we moved from Cherrywood in Gloucester Twp to Medford in 1996, and it sure would have been nice if the Patco line went out to Medford.
Always hyped for an Alan Fisher upload
Hey, a WMATA 2000 series! I rode one of those today... more than a decade after they were supposed to be scrapped. I miss the 7000 series...
LMAO, just moved to Philly from Atlanta and Ive noticed that Patco basically runs the same as MARTA. Guess I now know where they got it from.
pretty convoluted if say you wanna go from Newark to Atlantic City, needing two or 3 different transit lines to go a destination in the same state which a much smaller distance than I can go with the MTA, 3 different services but the same agency can get you all over 3 different areas of NY and CT, makes me not take it for granted considering this
The casinos used to pay NJT to run an express train called ACES from New York Penn to Atlantic City stopping only in Newark, with a snack bar and everything you'd expect on Amtrak. It even skipped Philly, as it turned off at Frankford Junction straight to Atlantic City instead of backing out of 30th Street. Unfortunately, it didn't get them enough ridership, and they quit paying for it. Now, you would probably take the 319 NJT express coach bus nonstop from Newark to Atlantic City. To be honest though, most of New Jersey sucks ass, and their transit once you leave the rail lines sucks too. That said, Jersey City is fucking amazing. It probably has the best urbanist initiative anywhere in the US.
Historical note: PATCO's design was greatly influenced by the Philadelphia and Western (P&W) interurban rail line that now runs as SEPTA's Norristown High Speed* Line. In fact shortly after PATCO opened, CBS News broadcast a short documentary about the two systems on national TV.
Both systems are fully grade-separated, have third-rail power, and constructed to full passenger railroad standards. The differences of course are that PATCO operates much longer trains and is more automated than the P&W, which opened some 60+ years earlier.
In the early 1970s there were proposals to connect the two systems by tunnelling under Chestnut Street, then using the old PRR Cardington branch tracks that ran to Upper Darby. If it had been built the connection would have fulfilled the P&W's early plans to provide cross-city service, and would have offered a seamless connection across both states.
Of course, this being the Philly area nothing every came of the idea.
(*) Under SEPTA's ownership, the words _high speed_ should be in quotes. The route now runs about half as fast as it did in the Red Arrow days.
As a person who grew up in Mount Holly, that map of the proposed extension into my hometown made me so sad. Would’ve loved a patco stop
It would be nice if the 8th and Market stop was at 11th and Market/Jefferson Station, providing a better link to SEPTA Regional Rail.
Love the PATCO and appreciate you shouting out Collingswood and Haddonfield. Both have awesome walkable downtown areas and I highly recommend that people check them out if they're in the area, I liked them so much that I moved over here.
Collingwood is an official NJ Transit Village and the only one actually on the PATCO line; Haddonfield is also cool 😎
I have nothing against Park and Rides, so long as they aren't paved, People in rural areas need connections to their closest towns and cities, and if that means park and rides on the last stops of Bus and Train lines, I see no problem with it.
Yeah, I think PATCO's are pretty forgivable considering it *does* stop in walkable places in Camden, Collingswood, Westmont, and Haddonfield. The rest of the towns past that don't really have a walkable downtown to start with, so driving to the train is really the only option anyway.
You can put a stop in rural areas without covering it in parking space. There are many rural small towns across America with little downtowns with denser development, those are great places to put a stop as they already have space for parking for anyone outside and the stop is closer to the most amount of people.
@@macgobhann8712 Then it is not a rural area, it is a small town, when I say Rural Area, I mean Farms, Forests, Mines etc scattered buildings that do not form a town. Those areas need park and rides, small towns can exist on their own, or have a transit stop without parking if they so choose.
Im from South Jersey! I never knew about this. Now I miss my hometown even more 🥲
But it’s true what a missed opportunity. It definitely could’ve connected to more cities. I’m from the city next to Lidenwold. I liked the PATCO because it meant not having to pay for parking in Center City, but it would’ve been nice to not have to drive to the Lindenwold station or wait for a bus to take me there.
I rode it the day it opened in 1969 and commuted on it to Drexel during my college days. It's a fantastic line.
I came over from London to ride the NJ Transit River Line a few days after it opened. When I arrived in Camden I then rode PATCO to Philadelphia; what a confusing place for transport that city is.
I knew that PATCO was about the same age as the Victoria Line, but if it opened in 1969 then that was not three years after the Victoria Line which opened in stages between 1968 and 1971. I’m not sure about the date for Pimlico which was an extra station opened slightly later.
The original trains on the Victoria Line were known as 1967 stock, but that was when they were built, not when they entered service.
The Victoria Line was mot the first place in London to see automatic train operation; the system was first tried out on the section of the Central Line between Woodford and Hainalt. I don’t know when that trial started, but I did ride an automatic train on that line.
What is the closed station which PATCO trains pass through just after coming off the bridge on the Philadelphia side.
Franklin Square is the name of that station. It is currently undergoing refurbishment to reopen for the fourth time in its history within the next few years.
And just a few months after PATCO, in June 1969, Paris metro line 11 (which was also the first metro line in the world to run on rubber-tyres in 1956) was fully equipped with automatic train operation. But trials had been ongoing on the line with 2 of the 17 trains since 1967 before the full implementation in 1969… so I don’t know who can really be considered to be the first line to run with ATO…
Grew up with this line and still use it to this day! Love the love Philly is getting in this channel!
Wow I wish there was a PATCO branch to Marlton and Medford. I love the old footage of the PRSL! Looking forward to the PRSL video
I'd settle for a stop anywhere east of 73. Imagine how much traffic and hassle that would reduce.
Patco is a great way to get into Philly from South Jersey. Very well connected and the ride over the Ben Franklin Bridge is really cool. Its well kept up too and has advanced technology for the time it went into service. I do think the park and ride situation, especially the stations further out like Woodcrest were designed to serve highways rather than communities nearby. Transit villages are seriously lacking on the entirety of Patco. Have you thought of doing a video on the River Line? Not only is that an interesting rail system in South Jersey because it's one of the only few diesel light rails in the country but it's well connected to downtown areas like Burlington and Riverside and improved connectivity with most of South Jersey and the services that go into Philly and the rest of South Jersey as well as the northeast corridor line. It was one of the few transit projects that came into fruition that were proposed in the 1990s and helped provide a clean, frequent, and affordable link for most of the riverfront communIties between Trenton and Camden, which some were transit deserts for quite a while. It also runs along the former Camden and Amboy Railroad which is something I highly recommend for another video too.
PATCO is one of the reasons why I'll be moving to south Jersey next month, about 8 minutes from a station. I also hope to work for them one day.
MBTA's South South extension of the Red Line was built in a similar model as PATCO as a quasi-interurban and the No.1 (01500/01600) cars from 1969 also have a suburban interior configuration.
I might just be speaking from my local point of view.. But I think it's a good idea for terminal subways stations to have parking garages. Outside of Boston, it makes it so much easier to just park your car, and take the train the rest of the way. I don't think it's a good idea for parking garages to be at every single station, that's a waste of space, but for those of us who don't live near a train station, a park and ride lot is our only option. The closest train station for me to get into Boston is 30 minutes away. I live in southern Plymouth (The Plymouth or Kingston stations, and the Middleboro station are about the same distance), and the Buzzards Bay train station is about 10 to 15 minutes away, however there is no convenient time to catch the train into Boston, only 3 trains a week and they're all late at night, getting onto the cape is easier tho.
That's my take on the whole parking conundrum.
You know similarly, around that time the path was planning to extend service from Newark to Plainfield, NJ
My one problem with this now is just that it hasnt been expanded. I wish that it would be expanded both in south jersey/around camden and in philly. Id love to see it go near the hospitals/30th street and maybe go to the airport or connect with a line that goes there
This was super cool to check out - I’m a fellow South Jersey native and knew Bill Vigrass personally (we both were ushers together at the same church), such a great wealth of knowledge and I’m glad you were able to capture some of that history here!
Great video. Keep it up man. I live in Haddon Twp, so it’s really cool to see these kinds of videos so close to home.
Fun fact: The PATCO was actually going to be longer than it is today. They were going to have it go through places like Mount Holly, moorestown, etc but they didn't cause of racism, not just funding.
Still today when you ask residents if they should add in a train line they still have the EXACT SAME EXCUSES. I lived in moorestown and man, those people are stuck in their ways. They ironically use Haddonfield as an example as to why there shouldn't be any passenger train lines. Even though, that town is doing wayyy better than Moorestown in basically every category. They still trying to stop a FEDERAL ORDER to put in an affordable housing project. One of these days there will be a passenger train line put in again along the Cherry hill line and those people stuck in their ways will just have to deal with it or move or just die off (There's lots of old people in Moorestown).
As much as I don't like NJ, if I had the money I would've moved to Haddonfield or Collingwood. They r more walkable with decent transportation options. But unfortunately I couldn't afford it and am currently living in rural western pa where there's barely a functioning bus line. I'll eventually move to Philly if not Lancaster in the near future. I miss my trains.
what a beautiful thumbnail, Alan, I love it
Based pfp and username