The Small Ball Poker Strategy: Is It Any Good? | SplitSuit
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ต.ค. 2019
- Small ball poker was popularized by Daniel Negreanu, but is it still useful in TODAY'S games? Let's break down the pros and cons of this playstyle so you know if you should use, or skip, this strategy.
Essentially, small ball is a style that focuses on getting involved in cheap pots preflop, keeping pot sizes small with marginal hands, and only building huge pots with nutted hands. While on the surface it seems like a great idea to try to inject simplicity and control in an otherwise complex and chaotic game - there are several problems with using this approach.
At the end of the day, small ball will minimize your chances of having massive losing days. Heck, it might even get you in the money of a few extra tournaments. But this isn't the way to go if you want to final table tournaments, have some huge wins, and get closer to a top-side winrate. Good players can too easily abuse this playstyle, and even against weaker players you leave money on the table. So think long and hard before using (or continuing to use) this style!
One of the best ways to find those extra edges at the table is by joining THE VAULT. This intermediate-advanced training membership gets you immediate 24/7 streaming access to all of my best courses. Study The Hand Reading Lab, The One Percent, and others - get access to my exclusive Discord channel - and start taking control of your poker strategy. Learn more and sign up today at www.splitsuit.com/vault
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Once I became comfortable with putting my stack at risk, I busted out of a lot more tournaments but my overall ROI went way up. The biggest hurdle I had to get over was not letting the bust-outs get to me emotionally. That wasn't easy until the results started to show the strategy was beneficial. Now I'm working on being slightly more selective with the spots I put myself at risk with.
Thanks for this vid. I'm currently rereading Negreanu's book as I'm coming back to poker. Around the 6 minute mark you talk about call with hands such as K4s preflop. Negreanu states in his book not to call with these kind of hands but a raise in late position to steal the blinds can be OK. Also one of his key concepts is not as much play your own hands but try to think of the range of your opponent. So just waiting around and seeing a lot of flops to try and hit big is not the style as is being described in his book.
he apparently never read the book if he thinks that SB is a "call preflop, fold flop" strategy
Smallball does not say to limp into pots or not be aggressive pre-flop.
Yeah he is describing a fish. I understand he is trying to sell his product, but this honestly feels like outright lying.
I found a useful collection of videos that should help you at Card Crusher Fixer
@@usefulidiots3970 im sorry , what!?? I dont think you understand poker too much buddy....and the op as welll....he discribed perfectly the smallball and yeah there are no big winners in 2020 who are playing this old style!
Like he said , if youre winning dosnt mean its optimal...coz you might be able to win double that or more by useing a better strategy that is PROVEN .....
Its fucking science its not like beliveing in god boys....you can see spread sheets...dont come here with that terrible bullshit please...we all know youre bad and you dont get it anyway....so for that reason alone i salute you! We need idiots in this game and you show up guys !! Gg
@@tiagomota4734 alright keep your hair on
Awesome video man keep it up 👌
Omg. A new dplitduit video. Ice just been going through your old stuff again in preparation for my bi annual tourney.
Best of luck Justin!
love your videos mate!!!
Thanks Samuel!
Another great vid from the bearded one 👏
Thanks Derek!
Good to see you back!
Thanks Sidekick! I've been spending the last couple of months preparing for our newborn and trying to get a few new videos out before he is born in the upcoming weeks =)
@@splitsuit Congratulations on your son! Looking forward to any uploads that come our way, but no worries if not. I'm glad to hear you're focusing on your family.
@@sidekickstreams Thank you!
Watch the video to the end and I would say if you are interested in small ball I would read the book, this video paints a wrong picture of small ball IMHO. Still some good general info in this though. I think the part about small losses not registering as much as big ones Is a real nugget! Will check out the site
I could be remembering wrongly (it's been a long time ago now), but I think Dnegs recommended small ball as a strategy for experienced players who had a post-flop edge at the table. Because a small ball player is getting involved in a lot of pots, it requires that you have pretty good hand reading skills to be profitable.
Essentially, I think this is just a clarification: small ball is a simple strategy, but not necessarily and easy one. All that to say, I agree; this is a decent way to play, but not optimal.
Cheers. I suppose my biggest gripe would be that even with huge postflop edges, small ball creates more MW pots. An edge may be high in those pots, but there is enough reason to think your edge could be even greater in a HU (or at least less MW) pot =)
@@splitsuit earlier in tourneys yes, but later even minraises get headsup with the BB so often, and playing IP against a super wide range is living the dream.
Appreciate the quick response and information. That clears up some confusion. I am a winning player and have been for years, but play low stakes. In L.A. I played mainly 3-500 for many years, but have moved into an area where the biggest game going is usually a 1-3 no limit, though they do get 200-2000 NL on the weekends. I feel like my game has stagnated and I want to take it to the next level. I am not a young guy - I am in my late fifties, retired and essentially use poker as a supplemental income. You sell a lot of products - based on the little that I have told you about myself, how would you recommend that I best spend my money with your company?
THE VAULT gives you access to most of my big-ticket products - so I would start there and watch/do everything. If you are retired, dedicated, and focused - you'll likely finish everything in 3-6 months and at that point we'll have a better idea where your next focal points would be imo.
I didn't think small ball meant limping. I thought it was about raising a little above min raise preflop and C Betting 1/4 to 1/3 pot post flop.
you would be correct. small ball isn't playing non-aggressive, it's allowing yourself to play more hands pre with 2 possible postflop strategies. strat 1 is to be semi aggressive with small bets that force opponent to give away info which you use to bluff or value town them. strat 2 is hyperaggressive with tons of barreling which banks on how hard it is to make a real hand in holdem and gives you more chances to win each pot.
In my local 1-2 game, everyone plays a small ball strategy like you describe. I've tried to adjust by being aggressive against them, however they all have a huge slowplaying habit. When they miss they fold easily, but when they hit hard I end up doing all of their betting for them. The many small (and heavily raked) pots that I win don't make up for the large pots that I lose when I run into several slowplayed sets per session, which is pretty normal when 8 other people are taking shots at smashing the flop. What am I doing wrong? Should I be giving up the aggression if anybody calls a flop bet?
I'm releasing a video on playing against slow players in the next few weeks. Stay tuned!
Apparently part of small balls not 3 betting preflop right. If you're seeing 8way flops your not 3 betting enough.
@@guybrushthreepwood8174 Sorry to confuse. Most pots are limped, people rarely raise, so 3betting doesn't come up often. When I raise, I typically get 0-3 callers for 2-4 way flops. What I meant is that with 8 opponents all looking to play pocket pairs and flop sets and slowplay, you can expect to run into several per session.
This is extremely typical of low stake games, players at low stakes by default go small ball cuz their thought process is basically "limp->hit monster on flop->stack somebody else fold". The way you make money from them is buy raising bigger pre to narrow the field post-flop and force them to play a big pot with a weak range, and if they are fit-or-fold fish you can c-bet bluff the flop a lot but just be pretty careful if they don't fold. Also if the pot is 8 ways or w/e don't overplay top pair cuz if there's 8 people in the pot someone has better than 1 pair.
Small ball = tournament. because you want to survive
Cash game you want to make big pots as soon as you could.
Good Video. I think you're an excellent teacher and seriously thinking about joining you in the Vault.
I am confused about something. Is this your company? Are you involved with Red Chip poker? If you could give me the smallest amount of background or info, that would be great.
Thanks David! SplitSuit is my company and I am CEO and co-founder of Red Chip Poker. To clarify, THE VAULT is solely a SplitSuit product and not a part of RCP. If you have any further questions, just let me know =)
James- I recently joined CORE. its a great learning tool at a price that just cant be matched for the info it contains... Appreciate the time you've put into it, question, what is the Vault in relation to red chip/CORE?
What are the other styles
Well, first having acquired a strategy doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. The smart player will learn different strategies and mix them up according to the situation , so he can get the better out of each one of then and also being more unpredictable. Players who only stick to one strategy will definitely get predictable and will be read and taken advantage of by good players. Daniel Negreanu uses small ball strategy ,but as I said accordingly to the situation. Is he a fish? Has anyone of you here made more money than him playing poker? Well , I think that ends the conversation.
Youre going to mix up but you dont actually need to use the small ball strategy anymore and your arguments are so fucking bad...playing vs old farts and makeing money dosnt make you the best player in the world , hes not one of the best by any means and if you dont belive me you can watch his youtube channel and he will asure you!
He said and i agree that hes miles behind "the internet kids" and guess what they never used this outdated strategy...
If i play vs drunk.old degenerates i can use any strategy and win but thats not the point!
You gotta try to maximize your value thats the key, to be more efficient...thats whats this guy is trying to say but most of you dont get it!
Do you remember the baggy shirts that the football/soccer players used to play in!?
I argue that real madrid with win 10 times in a row with those shirts on vs any team from second division but you cant really run in those...hope you get the point!
Im amazed how ppl are so impressed by the numbers(he won the most=he must be the best) and celebrities, you gotta be abe to see more than those "facts" otherwise youre fucked my friend!
I've read that small ball strategy book of Negreanu, I don't think this video explains that well. Overall your other videos are good.
? Why is this popping up on my phone today when it was from last year?
I would have never thought you looks like this from your voice . You look like a bad ass . Thought it was David Bautista in the thumbnail
Dneg describes his own small ball style, when he plays that way, different than you appear to here. He raises a lot preflop, and bluffs a lot post flop, but keeps those bets and raises smaller. Yes, if he gets called post, he slows down, if he gets raised post, gives up more often. He also says playing a lot of hands gives the impression of being real loose, allowing you getting called and payed when you do have a monster more likely.
th-cam.com/video/qphAAxIH_R8/w-d-xo.html
I've played charity tournaments where I won because I had a %90 vpip, but against stronger opponents, you are going to want to fold a lot more
Negreanu folded everything in the PAD cash game where he was the weakest player at the table
Fold more than 10% of the time, yes - but not folding so often that you allow stronger players to consistently auto-profit with any two cards =)
Um... What?
@@alphabett66 what did you have a question on?
90 vpip was a win because I could win a lot of small pots
Daniel the fish at the table is possible PAD=Poker After Dark
If you think Negreanu was the weakest player at the table the fish is probably you! 🤣
@@AlexanderTechniqueMadeEasy You're out of your mind if you think he is top 5 in the world, sorry
I don't see how strategy that says you should flat all the time pre and then let everyone else flat also can win. 6 way flops are not conducive to winning. 3 betting with good to playable hands to isolate weaker players seems better.
@@splitsuit Made me laugh aloud!
I don't think small ball is "tight" Daniel Negreanu was often mistaken as a maniac because he was always bluffing trying to get another player all in when he had the winning hand.
another thing that makes small ball attractive to some players is that it lets you play a lot of hands for a minimal investment.
with an emphasis on "play a lot of hands" (or "see a lot of flops")
which is to say - "it's more more fun than folding your marginal stuff pre-flop hand after hand"
My guess is that you were not listening to what James was saying. You missed the message.
@@raywhite7884 I was commenting specifically on the segment that runs from @1:05 to ~2:30 where he starts "first & foremost, why do people like small ball" and then goes on to list some reasons.
1) keeps pot small unless they have a big hand (simplicity/control)
2) erroneously "lowers variance"
3) small losses are less painful
I was attempting to say "you could add #4 - (some) people hate playing disciplined poker & folding marginal crap pre-flop and this lets them feel like playing junk is part of a valid (and winning) strategy."
it seems as though I was not very clear in what I was attempting to express, causing you to miss my message.
my apologies.
In here int lee
Does this guy have results
You think someone with this much knowledge/understanding of poker is not a winning player?
@@Trix2xploit Potentially, this material seems pretty straightforward and he is trying to sell his courses. Why would someone with serious results over a long period of time try to sell his courses for a little bit of money. I understand building multiple streams of income, but it seems like he capitalizing on his sexy radio voice.
@@Trix2xploit Malarkey
I was a winning online player pre-Black Friday (not a high limit crusher, but a steady winner at 50NL and 100NL). Being in the USA, I've really only played live cash games since Black Friday and I still win there (mostly playing $1/$2 - $5/$5). That being said, I don't play full-time as I have a family and many professional pursuits.
After reading this thread, @Trix is on the right track. I really enjoy teaching, and I enjoy teaching poker specifically because so many poker skills translate well to real-life. Beyond the fact that poker offers the potential of having a profitable hobby, improvements in math & psychology & logic can help someone grow. And I like helping people.
And of course, if you don't see the value in my courses - don't buy them. If you don't see the value in watching my videos because I'm not crushing SHR events or $100/$200 - don't watch them. No stress =)
The biggest issue is $6 rake in a 50bb cap $1/$2
That rake + that cap = ouch
@@splitsuit the only one I know for sure is beating the game is an ultra nit who jams or raises to 7bb with his entire playable range. No flop, only $1 raked.
@@hymnofashes I have to imagine that mining for gold in WoW is a better hourly lol
@@splitsuit I beat the game for maybe 7bb/hr but the rake for only 4. There's free food.
@@splitsuit actually scratch that I'm getting raked 3 times an hour so my real winrate has to be closer to 13bb/hr. 4 of which I keep.
Your argument makes sense, but if it's so exploitable how come someone as smart as Negreanu used it so heavily?
Tullochgorum He said you can use this strategy against ‘bad players’. For your local game, these players are just bad. When you are as good as Dnegs, ‘bad players’ come around more often as I guess it’s relative to who you are playing. Dnegs could out skill so many people that it would work for him
It's possible that the answer lies in one word from your question: "used" 😜 I can't speak to his current playstyle, but the games were very different a decade ago compared to what they are today - and small ball was enough to do the job when the average player was awful by today's standards.
He use to use it when really no one else did.
this video does not accurately summarise small ball. it's far more than buying lottery tickets. A lot of it is about gaining information cheaply. As with any strategy, negreaneu would advocate mixing things up. he will still go aggressive at times but it's about folding when needed. negreaneu is still doing pretty well me thinks
@@007ggman but what kind of information is getting gained cheaply? Is it information about FACING aggression or BEING aggressive?
It would be lower variance to *fold* haha
why dont u just paly smt else? like basketball
@@joe930709 I'm too fat and not tall enough or strong enough
God damn.. I want to crack into this vault..
Dude... Watch your language. Grow up.
Iong time no c
Back like I never left =)
@@splitsuit you are a great coach I don't want you to leave ever. And make videos like this from your greatest student
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Honestly you're small ball assessment is terrible. I know you're a very good player. The problem is you're definition of a small ball player is a fish??? Sorry bro, but the best small ball players are a nightmare.
Nightmares to whom? Small ball wins money against weaker competition, and small ball gets beaten by competent players. Nightmare is relative imo.