Shock Collar Response
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 พ.ย. 2023
- This week on Mordor Gundogs, Charlie is Joined by Ash to discuss the response to his previous video "Pros and Cons of Shock Collars"
• Pros and Cons of Shock...
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I wonder if the difference between British Labradors and American Labradors has anything to do with shock collar training? The US dogs are much harder, wound up, etc. British dogs are softer, more biddable and therefore more responsive to training.
I live in the uk, and uk training methods are more appropriate for me. Interestingly British labs are exported to the US to improve the breed by using more biddable, softer genes, and im sure adding a harder and more driven type to the uk gene pool could compliment the outcome in the same way.
We can compliment each other with our differences- it’s doesn’t have to be a case of right and wrong.
Thank you!
IMHO the difference in British and American lines is driven by the trialing and test system. Which is in turn a reflection of some of the differences in hunting styles, etc. For instance, driven hunts are almost non-existent in the US, so the specific concepts of sitting on a peg or working a beating line are unknown.
The trialing and test system in the US, is so vastly different (and I think inferior) to that used in the UK. These titles are what drives pedigrees and breeding, resulting in bigger, taller, more energetic dogs, but at the expense of biddable nature and calm demeanor. I also think athleticism has been prioritized over traits like a natural delivery to hand, unfortunately.
Almost all American trainers will have some sort of “force fetch” portion in their gundog program. So many dogs without a natural retrieval will be forced into it, and subsequently bred, continuing the problem. This has been the case far predating the invention of the electric collar. Other forceful physical methods were used like an ear pinch or toe hitch.
The E-collar is a tool, nothing more or less. It can be used in different ways, and not all of them punitive. But certainly it is used in a forceful manner by many, and abused by some as well. There are some trainers that do use it with only the mildest level of stimulation, to communicate with the dog, and not in a punitive manner at all. (ie Bill Hillman ). It’s no more harsh than a tug on a lead when used in this fashion.
I've had both, and there are pros and cons with each. American field bred labs tend to be more independent and strong willed, but they also have a much stronger will to please, often making them easier to train. They also seem to understand negotiation better, and all my training is transactional. You give me something I want, and I'll give you something you want. The key is knowing what they want and being a good negotiator. I'm training service dogs for autism and epilepsy and they can't be robotic, they need to know when and when not to take the lead in situations. I've been successful with both, but my preference is for American Labs... they just try harder to get it right. They take a little longer to train because it takes them longer to settle, but they're not "harder" to train, just different :)
😊😊
As a hunter with a working German Wirehaired Pointer, I've witnessed firsthand the impact of e-collar use in the field. When handled responsibly, the e-collar is a game-changer, helping to maintain control over high-drive dogs and ensuring a safe, enjoyable hunt. Personally, I've noticed a significant difference in my dog's behavior when the e-collar is on. She understands it's time to work, and her mentality shifts to a more focused state. It's become a cue for her, enhancing her performance in the field. In comparison, when we start hunting without the collar, she tends to be less focused. In the hands of a skilled hunter, the e-collar is invaluable, but in the wrong hands, it can quickly become the worst thing for our four-legged companions.
I know a few people with high drive German Shorthairs they use for hunting, and those dogs absolutely need to be on an E collar in a normal non hunting environment like off leash walking and staying in the yard. It's limited freedom with vs no freedom without the collar :)
@@ShamanicSavantI think that’s one of his points. Increased E-collar use may have shifted the breeding stock to dogs that cannot be controlled in even everyday life environments not just when working. That’s both an argument to possibly use them for some individual dogs as mentioned, but widespread use particularly on breeding stock may actually make that issue worse. What happens if that is true and the paths continues. At some point not even shock collars will work.
When we moved to Devon, land of the sheep, we put a 400m shock collar on our Norweigen Elkhound (previously she literally could bugger of for hours on end). After a few days of wearing the collar she was as good as gold, she just immediately stopped with only the warning buzz. Overall she got shocked about six times then the penny dropped for her that she could no longer just do what she wanted and she always came back on recall. It made our walks much more enjoyable, calmer and safer.
I've had gundogs for 30 years, well actually 52 as I got my 1st spaniel when I was 6. How things have changed (for the better) since I got my first dog, with so much focus now on canine psychology, learning patterns and triggers for success (let alone nutrition) than the dog breakers of old. So, for me, this was an interesting watch, and thanks for that.
Like you, I like softer dogs that want to work with me, being moulded into a full time friend and part time shooting companion rather than being carved from granite. By way of example, it took me 21 years to find a GWP bitch that had the exact temperament we wanted and so we bred her from a dog of a similar nature with good, proven lines from people we knew.
Back to dog breaking, which I believe a lot of e-collar use can be. An e-collar is not a short cut but if it was, like all short cuts, it could and often does, go horribly wrong. I believe there is a place for e-collars in the trained handler's tool kit but the main problem with e-collars is not the collar. It is the person holding the remote control. Most people have not got a clue how to "condition"* their dog to the collar, let alone intervene at the right time or in the right way when required. Blink and you miss the moment and the time for the correct use of the collar has passed. The worst of it being for a the majority of people the collar would be used in anger, frustration or out of humiliation when their prospective FTCh puppy runs in (because it hasn't been trained yet) on an shoot day in front of their mates. The wee soul probably shouldn't even have been in the field, let alone getting a shock in front of a gallery! The dog is getting a shock (or multiple shocks) from the collar which is presumably to then dominate the dog into submission and salve an ego rather than to pre-emptively warn against the undesirable behaviour. Epic fail.
*My understanding of collar conditioning is that you are training the dog to know and accept the various types of collar stimulation and that a collar would therefore be worn at all times when out working. Not that you are necessarily going to use it or need to use it but the dog associates the collar going on with work. In the same way a tracking dog associates tracking deer when the harness goes on.
Have a working cocker who does not work. Had a hard time with her for a year and lost her a fair few times. 3 different dog trainers later she was worse. Then found the mini educator(E-collar). After watching many videos and reading a book how to use it I took the plunge a bought one. 1 month in my dog is off the lead and is a dream. Still has the odd moments when in new surrounds but the E-collar has gave her more freedom then I could have imagine. She’s happy and free. I’m hoping this is a means to an end but having know that if she’s in danger 1 press she is by my side gives me relief. 🙋🏻♂️🐶
Great conversation, but I think you need to let ash talk more, it felt very one sided. You are a dog trainer not an interviewer, so there is obviously an understanding this isn't potential your wheelhouse. Your knowledge and opinions are very interesting and we are loving the channel and seeing tt growing, but please if you go down the podcasts route bare this in mind.
Watching from west coast canada.
Hi guys, interesting video and I had already watched your previous one concerning e-collars. I have two spaniels, a five year old sprocker bitch and a two year old wcs and I adopted an English Setter from Greece in January this year. I previously had a working cocker from a pup until we lost him at thirteen and a half years old.
All of my dogs are companion dogs that I was happy to have basic levels of obedience with, but adding the setter into the mix really made me realise that this was insufficient in terms of the level of control needed and so I have been actively seeking inspiration to increase my knowledge.
This is where people like yourselves have been so helpful sharing your videos, which as well as being informative are also a really enjoyable watch, they show what can be achieved and a progressive pathway to reach that goal.
My search also found Jamie Penrith and I have watched many of his videos and whilst you are correct in saying that he does work with dogs that have killed sheep etc, he also trains dogs brought to him for general training and behaviour modification. I would never presume to speak for him, but I believe a conversation between you would end with complete agreement on the ethical use of e-collars, I have heard him address all of your concerns in his videos.
Obviously you have great success in the breeding and training of your dogs, but the advantage of having them from day one is huge, as your experience of repeatedly chasing after a clients dog demonstrates, we don't all have your skillset!
I will continue to follow with interest your output, I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to share your experience.
Sean, Forest of Dean, Glos.
32:54 brilliantly put.
Interesting conversation. Made me smile when it was said “I’ve had dogs for 32 years… so you’ve had 3… we train hundreds”
Cheers to you both.
Steve Mac. (Watching from West 🇨🇦, BC)
Thank you for watching the whole video Steve! 👍
A great podcast again. Couple personal views
I used to use trial or trial trained dogs picking up with great success. However for some it's not perfect. I used a large pack, and used the trial dog for specific retrieves, long blinds etc (as you know Charlie). In gundog training I don't believe there is a need for e- collars, a different style of training altogether. The deal for gundogs is to encourage, cajole, educate but not to deter.
However the e collar is a life saver for some breeds or behaviours but it IS a quick fix tool. If you time it wrong or too later after the action needing DONE, It's a waste of time. I've used one for my German shepherds to stop an unnecessary behaviour, works as long as I was 10 steps ahead of the likely behaviour. Worked for a while but they are bright enough to know when the collar is off!! The one is totally immune to it, hard little lady, the other exceedingly responsive and the collar did the job.
Clicker training - It's a fantastic tool, again used correctly and exact timing essential. Click reward. Again on Gsds I use it, and I am at the stage that instead of a treat all they need, and want is the click, that's their reward! OK, occasionally recharge the click 'condition' with occasional treat or click to allow them to eat their dinner. A great tool, saves on treats eventually too!! A highly successful woman gundog trials lady, Pippa Williamson, trains all her trial dogs on Clicker. But does not use in a trial.
Great listening to you both, reminds me how I miss my gundog training!
@@nickimorley536 All dogs get collar wise, they're not stupid. They're also smart enough to figure out that it goes right back on when they mess up without it, or at least all my dogs have been. Once they're in the habit you want, it shouldn't be needed anymore, the force of habit takes over :)
Iv found your videos so great! Iv got a 10 month old working cocker and she’s great! Testing me every day don’t get me wrong but the satisfaction when your out and she’s following your lead and doing what you want when you want is something else! Seeing as we can’t talk to them and it’s all about understanding each other just puts a massive smile on my face and I have to say your videos have encouraged me so much to train her to her natural ways. Thank you!
Conditioning isn't toughening them up, it's pressure and release. Dog learns that compliance turns off the pressure, you alter the timing of the stim over time and eventually you don't need to stim at all.
Great to see Ash on the channel
Great! More chats would be really good. Thank you for these
I just started his Puppy Development Program and he is all about prevention from day one. Very impressive.
Hi Charlie, thinking on, I’m sure you know all about operant conditioning, the four quadrants. You will know that negative reinforcement is some what paired with positive punishment. This is why in skilled hands the e-collar works. It’s not about just shocking, it’s about giving the mildest stimulation when giving a negative reinforcement but you also have the option to give a positive punishment with the same tool. The e-collar shouldn’t be banned but regulated in exactly the same way as learning how to drive. You end up, once passed, with a licence.
Hi Simon I love your videos and as I have a new Working Cocker pup I am now watching all your videos as she is 16 weeks old and even though I have had working dogs for over 10 years I am learning so much from you, the reason I am commenting for the first time is this video is excellent and hopefully something you will do again bouncing off each other is fantastic and very helpful keep doing what you do best 👏👏👏👏👏👍
Sorry Charlie I called you Simon 😳 must re read before sending 🤔
100 percent agree with you guys. Great discussion. In the wrong hands ecollars can be dangerous and counter productive. Most of my clients who state they have bought one is because they are rushing their training. They want to take that dog out hunting asap without putting the work in. Dogs that kill livestock or for here in oz snake avoidance training there is a need. But other than that if you are not missing steps in your training there isn't a requirement for ecollars.
I tuned into this to get some good advice from your head trainer. It was you hogging the limelight and continuously interrupting him. Sometimes less is more and let your training speak for you. Would love for Ash to give a video of his training methods
Bit surprised by all these comments about what a good discussion this is. Perhaps an apology to Jamie Penrith for linking his name to a dog's dinner of an analysis? Please guys before you talk watch his videos, read Larry Krohn's book, watch Tom Davis demonstrating low level collar training etc.....
Hi Charlie and Ash. Another great video and I’m not disagreeing with you what you say. I think the principle of the e collar is that the dog needs to be trained to it. So for example, you call the dog, the dog looks at you and goes in the opposite direction. They then receive a sound. If they still go off on the opposite direction, they then receive a shock (lowest level for them to respond). The shock is rarely used as once they understand this, the sound is enough to bring them back. And soon after, they just come when called. An interesting statistic is that sheep deaths have quadrupled in wales and the number of dogs shot has increased since they were banned there. So it can be a useful training tool for dogs but shouldn’t be used like a remote control. Not sure if this adds much 🤷♀️
A very thoughtful and considerate discussion. I think you nailed it on the head with e-collars being the tool that we use today, to prevent the dog being killed tomorrow. But the aim is to be free from the collar. See y
If you can have a discussion with Morgan Gold from Goldshaw farm, he recently used a e-collar with his young livestock Abby because she killed a chicken on his poultry farm, and rather than "give up" on her he brought in a trainer who helped him with an e-collar to discourage that behaviour, now she is around chickens without the collar and nolo ger has the want to "play" with the chickens and is turning into a really good farm dog.
If I could request one video for the channel it would be this: how to stop an excitable dog running in to play with another dog. You mentioned that exact situation in this video. My main issue with my 2 year lab right now is that initial drive to just sprint across a field to have a play with another dog. Once he’s had a little play I can recall him, but no chance of doing that whilst he is sprinting across the field. Sure there must be others like me in this position!
oh yes! 14 month old lab exactly the same. Not clear whether they will grow out of that behaviour and should be kept away from other dogs meantime (we live and walk in a remote area). This is the first time I've only had one dog and wonder if that's why he's so keen to play with others.
Excellent point at 21:00 about creating headstrong dogs by going through a forceful training program. That’s not to say that that is the only way an ecollar can be used, but it does help to explain differences in American and British lines with regard to temperament.
Love this. I'm going through training my dog now with positive reinforcement. I'm enjoying your channel I think it makes sense. I'm trying to learn what I can from you but my dog doesn't do much without a reward at the moment lol.
Thank You! Best of luck with your training
Putting the debate of the e-collar to one side for a moment. I spent an hour with a guy who has both working gun dogs and protection dogs. His working dogs are impeccable, there are many videos on Facebook showcasing them. He doesn’t use e-collars, he calls it microwave training. I booked an hour with him to help me with my dog winning with over excitement when in a shoot environment plus absconding. We worked on sit, and his standard is sit MEANS sit under any circumstances, sit being the corner stone of his training. His level of lead correction was way up there, seriously. He’s not the only trainer I’ve been to and it seems this really harsh correcting is normal. Are you willing to share what your corrections entail and to what level?
It's only harsh when the dog refuses to listen, and it teaches them to listen much faster. Nature uses the same technique, there are consequences for everything and negative consequences for negative actions are just as important as positive consequences for positive actions. There are only 2 options, either you're in charge or your dog is, and you're higher on the food chain for a reason :)
if he's training protection dogs he may not be using e collars but id bet a pound to a penny he is using pinch collars, especially during the protection phases of training........if he has high drive dogs ?
I feel like you touched on a few good points and clarified you position for the better in a few areas.
I’m going to comment again because you commented on some I said directly.
I still encourage you to have this conversation with an American trainer. Talking to one of your trainers isn’t very productive for the conversation. It just reinforces what you already think.
No doubt you are a fantastic trainer. Maybe one of the best in the UK. The style in which you train wouldn’t cut it in the US field trials., respectfully. The goals aren’t the same. I think that something the British miss. Again, our trials have away different standards. I’m not even saying higher or lower, just different. There’s a reason why not a single modern FC or AFC has been trained without an electric collar. The training is too demanding.
Something else you never touch on is something I and a few other brought up. The collar is about reinforcing not punishing. I believe you even said you don’t quite understand what conditioning is as it relates to the collar
Try training a working English setter on a grouse moor with no vibrate/ecollar😀
Bless her she was a good dog and used to love the collar being put on as she knew it’s intent
We have had a springer that was trained with a shock collar around sheep before we got him - this was a while ago - 20 years. He couldn't look at a sheep. We got him at just under a year. We never used a collar over the rest of his 16 years. And he never looked at a sheep - even when we walked through a field of them.
I would seriously suggest that you look at trainers videos who know how to use an e coolar properly as it is clear that neither of you have much idea how e collars are used modern training you only seem to think that they can be used to puish a dog where in fact they can and are used to negatively reinfoce known commands on a very low level.
Cheap collars are not recommended mainly due to the fact that they have far fewer levels of stim meaning that low levels on these collars are still far too high for negative reinforcement.
As for conditioning to the e collar this means the process of pairing the collar to known commands and then in the later stages of training using the e collar for some commands and not others varying it all the time so the dog does not get wise to the e collar.
Hi another great Video , I commented on your last Video re- having my daughters family pet wirehaired Vizsla a couple of days a week that is from working stock .She has a very high prey drive and I can stop her if I catch that moment before she goes (Squirrels on the local parks) . I love going out with her and doing some training for fun . She will retrieve,Sit.stop at distance walk to heel and whistle commands and responds well to all soft training which is all I do with her . One of the issues I have is I love walking the moors and don`t have her on a lead . I am constantly on the look out for sheep and put her on a lead if I see any within what I would class as a safe distance . I would like to proof that if I missed a sheep and tried to stop her that she would not chase and possibly harm one. After watching your video`s and the one ref the electric collars I happened upon Jamie Penriths Video`s . He seemed extremely responsible .First by showing trained dogs ,Alsatians.pointers etc on long leads etc and the reaction to sheep . I,e chasing and having to be stopped on the long lead . He then conditions/gets the dog used to it by wearing a collar but not using . He then spends time again in the vicinity of sheep and catches the moment of chase gives a recall and if the dog starts to go gives a shock to break the dogs hunt thought . He reckons he only has to do this no more than four times and a dog although will not run away from sheep will also not give chase . He also recommends not actually buying a collar but borrowing one as it should only be used for a few hours in the field and that should be enough . I do not know how to prove that I could stop my daughters dog to not worry sheep if we inadvertently stumbled across one but was considering borrowing a collar for a day and trying her on a long lead and collar near sheep . Any thoughts appreciated as it although I really enjoy my walks it would put my mind at rest that I could actually stop her .Again many thanks for making and taking the time to put your video`s up a great help.
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Thanks for that, I’ve had some issues with my young cocker, but maybe it’s not been the dog but me not putting the correct amount of work in, I’ve been tempted to use a e collar, but not now after watching your video, what I’m going to do is contact you in the new year and use the money I would have spent on a collar and pay for lessons from you and your team, have a good Xmas speak soon.
I wish I had seen these training sessions when i brougt my cocker home. I'd like to know if you can use these lessons with an older dog?
Thanks
Love the channel and your training guidance over all. We're a few weeks away from picking up an English Cocker and have been watching your videos for guidance on his training regiment. We currently have two American Brittany's. My bitch absolutely melts with an e-collar, she just doesn't need it and will listen to every syllable without it. Her brother, both are 3 years old, is a hard headed gentleman that communicates better with it. He is smart, and knows what he's supposed to be doing, but he is challenged with duration. Its very individual to the dog, and its another tool to communicate with our companions. Also, the e-collar brand isn't using a shock its a stimulation. Its the same stimulation that I receive when I go to the chiropractor. Things that I do not agree with - the use of a true shock collar, any electronic collar used by someone that doesn't understand how to use it, and like you said if the dog doesn't know what its supposed to do then any new method of training, especially an electric collar will only make the dog more confused. I would suggest checking out Standing Stone Kennels on TH-cam. They have many videos on using the collar, and through multiple vides explaining how and when they should be used. They also use a clicker for initial training as a puppy, I believe establishing that initial method of communication benefited our dogs. Again, love yalls methods and looking forward to using a lot of them with our upcoming puppy.
So your likening the whistle to the ecollars is a fair point. But instead of seeing them as a remote control, think about it as a way of communicating with them in a similar way to with a whistle. One stim on their working level (lowest they’ll respond to out and about) is like a pinch on the shoulder and once you’ve reinforced the stim and created an association with this and recalling back you can do this from any distance. I have a vizsla who is quite antisocial and without the ecollar (paired with her muzzle) I wouldn’t trust her half as much off lead and she deserves the freedom. Also I can guarantee that if you spoke to a handful of owners using the ecollars you will see that the collars aren’t always relied on, as recall etc improves tenfold when trained using collars, but it is then just there in the background without being needed JUST INCASE something god awful happens like they go to chase prey across a road and then you have a last chance opportunity to get them back.
Soooo sorry for the long comment! New to your channel but enjoying the content!
A couple of questions unrelated to this topic.
1) How do you desensitise a dog or puppy to gun shots/fireworks.
2) Do you train your male dogs to such a high level that they could work even if they scented a bi.t.ch in heat?
Quite interesting. I was going to call it a conversation, but you were the one doing most of the talking, or interrupted all the way though.
I have a 9 month old dog who has twice now chased deer. He has not caught them, but I lost control and he wouldn't sit or come back to whistle. He did come back after a couple of minutes but under his terms. My thoughts now is to go back to basics and keep practicing together sit and recall. Am I correct in thinking this? Once a dog chases deer can I fix the situation or is it now fixed in his head ?
Hi guys, first off, love your videos, every element of dog training interests me massively and you are clearly talented. With this video in particular, I would urge you to do a bit more research into the e-collar, I would LOVE to see Jamie Penrith or Pat Stuart have a conversation with you, also with regards to clicker training there is an end in sight, its creating habits that become second nature.
It all depends on the dog In front of you and your end goal, be it a lab for retrieving or a mali for protection.
I am really disappointed to hear the level of misunderstanding of how an e-collar can be used. Allie has already summed it up in depth, but what struck me was the statement that you make dogs tougher through conditioning. Why? That implies that the sensation is painful, which it isn't. That's like saying if someone taps you on the shoulder once, and then they repeat it numerous times you then don't notice (or ignore) a tap on the shoulder moving forward because you have become desensitised to it. Having been tapped on the shoulder repeatedly myself, I can certainly say that's not true.
The conditioning of the e-collar is to teach a dog how to turn it off. If we use recall as an example, the dog learns that as soon as it comes back the sensation goes away. I am not someone who claims that e-collar can't be used in a painful and corrective way, but that's not all they are. Once a dog understands how it can turn the collar off and it ignores the recall you can raise the level so that it feels uncomfortable, but the dog is in control - it can simply decide to comply and the sensation is gone.
Plus it gets INSTANT feedback when it has gone wrong.
I have asked other gundog trainers (who don't use e-collars) what they do when a dog blows off a recall. They say they condition a punishment marker like "NO" folowed by an aversive, then shout "NO" when the dog fails a recall, chase the dog down, put it on a lead and use leash pops the whole way back to where the dog failed the recall. Does the dog REALLY make a connection to failing a recall when the punishment is delayed in this way? I honestly couldn't even tell you how long it would take me to catch my dog by running after it. Certainly too long to apply any meaningful correction!
Plus if you say that a dog gets tougher through the conditioning (which it doesn't as it's not aversive!) then that would apply to ANY form of physical intervention, like a leash correction, spacial pressure etc. You can't then just reduce it to the e-collar.
If taught correctly, an e-collar rarely needs to be used. But a lot of people who have dogs who developed a history of running off prefer to have a humane and effective way of addressing the problem. I know if I had the choice between chasing after my dog in the fruitless attempt to catch it and then apply a correction, and a clear remote communication that the dog already understands, I know which one I would choose.
I have used an e-collar on one of my 3 dogs. The others don't need it. They are all trained by me. The fact that I only have it on as a saftey net for any potential failure means she does NOT get desensitised in any way because it only is needed whenever she fails a recall - which is extremely rare.
I think having a conversation with Jamie would be great as I do think you don't understand how the tool is used at all.
Regarding the collar “never coming off” … at roughly the 11:00 mark … no collar of any kind is allowed in any AKC or HRC test or trial. So when the pup is performing in those endeavors, there is no collar used in any way.
I found this an interesting vid. More exposure for your guys works.
should a dog be allowed to sniff on a walk? is there any time that a dog should be walked on a leash not to heel?
I'd also be very interested to hear the professionals opinion.
As long as they are remembering their manners mine are free to mooch about on our walks, but our walks are for exercise and relaxation not work.
I to would like to know regarding dogs sniffing on a walk. My Vizsla is great off lead, but on a Lead pulls to chase the scent; not to lead the walk.
mainly what to do when scenting something leads to pulling at the end of the leash to follow the scent. @@christga100
There are trainers and there are trainers, some need e-collars some don’t. I don’t think it’s even up for discussion. If I had a dog that was a sheep chaser it would never see another sheep in its life.
With regards to the differences in trialing between the US and UK… and the need to use the collar to be competitive…
It’s not necessarily that they are more difficult in the US. But the judging criteria at the higher levels seems to diverge from actual hunting criteria. Just an example… on a blind retriever on a hunt, I might send a dog offline to the retrieve if it’s a surer path, and work the dog back into the wind to find the bird.
The judges will fail me in any high level test or trial if the dog is seen to use his nose on a blind retrieval. The judges want straight lines to the bird, and anything out of maybe 11 o’clock to 1 o’clock orientation is going to fail. And they want to see handler control the dog to the bird, NOT the dog nosing the bird.
So the trainers will use the collar during training for well timed distance correction . Can it be done without a collar? Certainly. But a collar is the prevailing tool used.
Soooooo much wrong here I barely know where to start. It’s mortifying.
Jamie Penrith is NOT just ‘fixing problems’ - that’s a misinformed and rudely reductionist statement. He has an absolutely outstanding puppy development and training programme and an adolescent training programme on Patreon that 100% focusses on preventing problems that owners tend to create inadvertently. To create the programme he’s followed the progress without ego or edits of raising and beautifully training two littermate lab pups, one of whom is blind in one eye and has had to have one leg and shoulder amputated and probably has a faster recall than pretty much any dog ANY gun dog trainer has trained, and he is a joy to watch. He also does a podcast called ‘The Dog Scholar’ with a leading neuroscientist and a fellow dog trainer called Danny from Unleashed K9 in Merseyside to educate the public about how to better understand dogs. He is VERY PASSIONATE about welfare for dogs - but also their OWNERS.
Your guessing as to how dogs perceive stim is EMBARRASSING.
For livestock aversion purposes, you don’t need to condition the dog.
Jamie is an ex police dog handler too, he is in Devon. He does not ‘only’ use collars for punishment aside from instilling a healthy mistrust of livestock. His pups have never experienced ANY aversive consequences except a slip lead tug when learning to walk nicely on a lead…he has documented every session for his dog Truman’s WAIT command but I bet most dogs’ wait command isn’t as good as his dogs’! His videos include some of his dog Sherlock doing a 2 mile retrieve. He’s worn an e-collar. He doesn’t need one for that retrieve or anything else! It’s filmed from a drone. Do some research.
What you need to understand is that a lot of people adopt dogs who already have difficult behaviours. Recall can be incredibly difficult to proof for some of these dogs. The e-collar for these dogs is just an invisible slip lead. It provides them freedom to run off leash. Many owners find the e-collar gives their dog a massive improvement in quality of life and Jamie could help you understand how.
Your comments are questionable about ‘people who know how to train dogs don’t need them’ (I agree) but people who …. etc - one minute you’re talking about stim and the next you’re saying ‘getting them used to the vibrate and it won’t be doing anything’ - what?? Nobody who trains properly uses vibrate. Dogs either hate it or don’t care about it. But they have a tone option which can he used like a whistle with Pavlovian conditioning during escape-and-avoidance training so that the dog may continue to wear the collar and you can individually recall one dog when out with several and can use the collar either as a cue like a whistle, or as negative reinforcement (stim - dog escapes pressure by complying) or as positive punishment (dog ignores whistle/tone and is then either pressured into complying or receives a higher level corrective stim that reduces the likelihood of the dog choosing to ignore NEXT time ie avoids stim) - all these require training of the OWNER and the dog too, and we absolutely advocate people finding a good trainer. Jamie doesn’t need an e-collar but he’s not as small minded as you are in this video - he realises that people do get a dog naively and mess up the early months or they take on an older animal, by which time their dog has been rehearsing HIGHLY self rewarding behaviours and if the owner doesn’t want to lose their dog but it’s not interested ENOUGH in treats or toys (or the owner isn’t physically strong enough to hold the dog if it takes off on a longline!) then an e-collar for that owner is simply the invisible short leash then longline that FACILITATES them learning to train their dog. He’s a brilliant trainer and an excellent communicator. Please don’t discuss him as just a ‘corrective trainer’ as that’s an insult to his skill set.
I think a valid point would be, there are a lot of training videos out there about ‘How to train’ your dog and exercises to complete to reach a certain standard of obedience for different elements or work etc (with and without an e-collar) but completely missing the reasoning behind the goal of what we are aiming to achieve.
Maybe this is where the confusion/debate lies. A lack of understanding because trainers don’t explain adequately enough for us mere mortals as to why they do what they do but we follow there lead anyway. Theory is as important.
Not yourself Charlie, TH-cam in general. Just a thought 🤷♂️
i think shock collar would it b the same as the people who smack the fear into there dogs ...i think each to there own i prefer to use my tone an the lead ...i think if we use fear to control a animal sooner or later there gonna turn ....
As I stated earlier ( and since disappeared ) watch "Bill Hillman " train with e-collars before you form an opinion.
I love your videos but I do think you missed an opportunity to move the conversation on beyond what you had already said in your previous video and this didn’t really add much. There is a lot of nuance to the use of e-collars, and of course you have the idiots that slap it on every dog and blast them, and those people definitely shouldn’t be using them! Also worth considering that there are also people who misuse flat collars and leads every day in a way that is incredibly aversive and confusing to the dog. For the people who are using e-collars properly, they’re taking into account the breed, temperament, behaviour, lifestyle, the purpose of why you might even consider it, and then assessing whether the e-collar is at all appropriate for them and going from there. Good balanced trainers are going to pick what is right for the dog that is in front of them, some may thrive with positive reinforcement alone, others need tools to build out the full picture for them. The ideal scenario with e-collars is to building that full picture for the dog with what is and isn’t wanted with its recall, and then working to the point where it only stays on the dog as insurance for that 0.0001% time that it’s vital that it’s used.
A really great video by Larry Krohn on e-collar training is here, which shows how a dog should be trained with one: th-cam.com/video/EmcA1NKKph8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=8HTh99r-YKW-2YbA
It would be a wonderful world if all dogs came out of somewhere as amazing as Mordor then we would be in some dog owning utopia with dogs that are setup with an amazing foundation to build from, but sadly we live in a world that has way too many bad breeders and a whole spectrum of owners that raise eyebrows and beyond.
Totally agree and a great video that you've linked by Larry Krohn. Definitely a missing part in the conversation about e-collars.
The ecollar is a fantastic trading aid,I said training aid and that is exactly what it is and not an implement for punishment.You mentioned “ continuing “ which is exactly this same as any training….all trained dogs are conditioned. What’s the difference between say a clicker and a whistle,silly point..The good collars all have a vibrate mode which also works,after a while the dog doesn’t need any reminders on the collar but he or she knows when they’ve got it on and respond without any prompting. I too have tried it on myself so I know what it feels like it,used properly it should be just a tingle like static electricity and never like a bolt from an electric fence!!!!
Watch k9 sheild training about e collars
Leaving the e collar on forever doesnt mean youre always using it. You don't crash your car every time you drive it but you wear your seat belt. Its about having the just in case covered
How can someone who's "trained more dogs than anyone" be unfamiliar with the concept of conditioning?
When you introduce leash pressure do you help the dog to understand how to turn off that pressure?
The analogy to building a boxer's pain tolerance is frankly bizarre.
Dealing with mouthy nippy puppies! 🙂
Talk to Garret Wing. (USA)
You are not understanding.
No trainer should stop a dog in full chase with a shock. That requires management. E collars should be used like your tug on the slip. More a reminder.
I don’t understand what you call “conditioning”
PS I watch you because I accidentally ended up with a hunting dog puppy with too much drive for a grandmother
(I do not use an e collar)
E collars have their place, used responsibility by under guidance of someone who knows what they are doing. It worked for me on my prey driven dog. A sheep chaser is a big No - one doesn’t put an e collar on lightly, it’s a considered decision and for many the last resort. Easy to dismiss them if you haven’t had a dog who cares nothing for food or toys when the real delight is the environment and the prey. Once the training is done it’s done. Lesson learned move on to a free life off lead. Too many dogs shot in the UK or left on lead because of the lack of knowledge out there for responsible usage of a collar. Although imo should be regulated and have to be instructed first by a professional. Fact is though England are going to ban them soon.
What a shame that neither of you understand how top level (that is not social media trainers) use the ecollar.
At the end of the day good training is good training with or without a collar.
shock collars are disgusting
Such an uneducated video. The old fella clearly dosent understand anything about e collar training. When it’s not your expertise you just shouldn’t comment on it. As you’ve said been training soft labs for years and there still jumping all over you in your videos.
I wish the guy on the right would allow the other guy to speak. It's infuriating. I stopped listening after four minutes.