IMHO this confirms the folly of paying for mortgage-deposit priced guns for accuracy reasons when we are at the mercy of such variable quality pellets. Of course this is not to say that the joy of owning something of quality and beauty isn't of great appeal. Great to see the giant-killer AA S400 doing its thing - what a brilliant gun.
I think the bent skirts actually fire-form with the softer lead compounds. The fact the skirt is off the contact gives the blast of air momentum on the skirt and actually ends up causing a better seal and bite into the grooves.
Very interesting idea! I think that would work with rifles at nearly 12ft/lbs, but would not work in a target pistol at about 2 joules? Not enough pressure to “fireform” the skirt for optimum obturation.
Another really interesting set of tests. I was lucky enough to test 3 different dies of JSBs recently, at Borders Wood, and one in particular liked my rifle. As JSB had a special deal on, I bought a load to keep me going for a while. I agree about the concentration and tiredness, as when I tested the pellets, I'd just shot a full (long!) round of HFT and by the end of the test, my neck and shoulders had really had enough! One to bear in mind - get shooting-fit..!
The numbers on the back of a pellet tin do not show the actual head size of each pellet in the tin if you use a pellet gauge, you will find a mix of head sizes usually in jsb from 4.50 up to 4.54. Even when the labels say 4.51 or 4.53.
I hear you Keith, and would tend to agree that like pellet weight a tin may contain a mix of head sizes, but I have yet to collate any evidence to prove that. However, in an interview I saw recently with JSB Director of Operations he clearly states that they have production dies for each of the head sizes and a perfect pellet without any damage should have the head size stated on the tin. I've seen some head gauges and they all seem a bit too cheap to be wholly accurate to 0.01mm.
That was a difficult one Jeff. I think there were too many variables (and not all considered) over relatively few data points to come to a conclusuion but well done for giving it a go 👍
Interesting video well presented, I have an S410 .22 that I find very tolerant of various pellets, and never found a distorted pellet skirt makes any difference I've always thought the skirt reforms when pushed into the breach.
Very interesting ! For pellets with a deformed skirt, I reform them with the wooden end of a small paintbrush 🖌, to the right size, and honestly it doesn't pose a problem!
You do get more flyers if you leave the skirts damaged , it's obvious. I have a very small skirt straightener that I use and it works everytime opposed to wobbly skirts. 👍
Nice video. I would have added a last test. Using only the best batch (dye) for each gun, and then sorting by weight and head size and also a 3rd category of identical weights AND head sizes from the best dye. I am pretty sure you would get interesting and conclusive results as I have done these same tests myself on many rifles until I have found the best combo for competition. Another suggestion would be removing the rifle stock and clamping it straight to a heavy table using 2 bolted vices (and eventual weights to the table) therefore eliminating any potential human error and getting rid of an extra variable....Thanks again for that video.
I would disagree with pellet head size . I’ve been shooting bench rest competitions for 15 years and pellet head size definitely matters , in pellet testing I have found certain head sizes perform better than others in my rifles . Also breach size my hw97k will only hold and shoot 4:53 if I put a 4:51 or 4;52 in they will literally drop out the breach and terrible flyiers
Hi Dean. I can only comment on my own experience and testing. I simply interpreted the results I saw on the video, where I found what you saw. If you've found some different that works for you then great! Good luck with your benchrest shooting.
Well done sir, thoroughly enjoyable video, great pace and to the point. Nice to see a knowledgeable chap doing his homework to debunk theories held by some so called experts. Subscribed.
I concur your content is both practical, useful and easy to comprehend. I would be really interested to know the make and model of your pellet scales (and where you purchased them of course). I've been trying to find a scale with a two decimal place reading for ages without success.
I got my scales from ebay. I've had a search and found an identical item with ebay item number 126048721920 or search for "50g/0.001g Digital Milligram Scale High Precision Jewelry Balance Powder Scale"
Nice demostration. The skirt has a thicker side and a thinner side. If the pellet was indexed into the chamber say heavy or light side up, would that affect poi?
I have an AGT Vixen which doesnt seem fussy at all yet my HW100 when you compare 4.50 to 4.52 heads shoot notably different, 4.52 are a much tighter group. Again great video.
Very interesting results. Thanks for taking the time to do the testing. I've always found sorting pellets tedious, so I'm delighted with that one! You've earned a sub!
Great content and got a new subscriber here, knowing about some of this stuff it's fantastic to see it put to the test in a controlled and unbiased way, 45 yards might be a touch ambitious for my 70's original Hurricane pistol though lol my 15m garden is plenty for me. Keep up the great content, scope mounting video for me next 👌
Many thanks. I haven't done a basic scope mount video as there are so many already, but check out my earlier 2 scope vids as there are some mounting tips in there. 👍
I live in the Philippines - shoot a locally made regulated (1,500 PSI plenum - 4,500 bottle) 22 cal PCP using local pellets. They all have to be sized (head and skirt) and still need to be force seated. I made a pellet seater from a 1/4" nail by rounding end. The fact that the seater is actually of a larger diameter insures that the skirt to reformed and the pellet set at the same depth each time. 75 yards - 125 feet - 68m? 1/2" to 3/4" groups - 1.27cm / 1.9cm
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you so much. You have answering questions I have had for the last six years. How to determine the most accurate pellet for my guns. Just purchased a S400H, best rifle I own. From Tucson, AZ. Garry
Great videos I've bought a HW97K one year old,what scope would you recommend for shooting hft, as that's what I want to do when I'm comfy with the gun.
That's a difficult one to answer Maurice. Whatever you choose you probably want a smaller objective, not a 50mm. Try out as many other shooters scopes as you can. It's a very personal thing. But a few to look at - Hawke Airmax or vantage, MTC connect and Optimax CP.
Great informative vlog my friend, and a new subscriber. 👍 found lately that j.s.b pellets seem a lot lthinner lead than they used to be. And that daystate is grouping like a shot gun lol, always Q.Y.S for me ❤
Lets agree to dis agree. I did get different results with my testing. The only time I did shoot indoor was at 25m with 'n AAS400 Classic and it was from a good benchrest setup 25 shot and I did shoot 250 with 17 x.
I was plinking one day and put all the distorted pellets in my 14 shot magazine and lo and behold they shot just as good if not slightly better than the good pellets. Definitely a myth 😅
Just a theory , but if the pellet is not “to “ deformed , the amount of air pressure exerted probably expanded and reshapes the skirt going out . Fly better , I doubt it !
I didn't expect the weight one to make any significant difference (with those weights) but I was really interested in the bent skirt test. I bin mine like everyone else but I've often thought the skirt would expand when fired anyway and make little to no difference. FWIW, I shoot H&N FTT 4.52 in both my S400 and HW98, good as any I've tried inc JSB.
Hi Ian, I will probably cover that in a future video. I've yet to see any credible and compelling evidence that it achieves anything other than a placebo effect.
I agree with you ,ok I shot center fire ,I would weigh the cases ,full lenth trim them ,some would measure internal volume of the cases ,I would weigh the power and the heads all down to .02 of a gn ,it makes a world of difference, we would not use a rule to measure we would use an computer group measuring tool ,that would do to the thou of an inch ,great tool ,we were getting 1 hole groups and ragged hole groups ,his results sho both his rifles performed better with the 8.4 gn pellets, if he was to do this test again but batch them down to .02 of a gn as he's allowing almost 1 gn difference between batches ,if he's weighing 8.30 , gn up to 8.39 then that's a full gn difference
Very interesting , gonna have to watch it again and take it all in .. had a long shift at work and ready for beddy byes .. one thing I did notice was the deformed skirt groups , think its been proven in the past that it doesn't really matter that much .. the pressure in the barrel forms them on the way down to the muzzle end .. unless you hit em with an hammer first .. THEN you'll see a difference .. but yeah .. gonna watch again tomorrow
4.51 head size definitely produces tighter groups, and if you varied the speed, it would have shown even more. My theory is that concentricity inconsistencies are more of a factor. I had a tapered hollow tube and push pun to check .25 caliber and found amazing things. The branded pellets were at least 30-40% less than the JSB. I use a joker holder with my tube. The head of the pellet just protrudes, and the skirt is braced with the square-ended push pin. Then it is rotated for runout
That would be an interesting experiment, to have a transparent barrel and high speed camera to give a very slow motion view of the pellet as it was fired to see if it actually does re form in the barrel?
The problem is, as you've shown the Die number is a plausible one. This probably accounts for the disparity in the OEM v branded pellets. I use BSA Goldstars ( rebranded H&M FTTs) whatever dies they use ( maybe specific ones for specific branding) the BSAs just edge the H&Ms for me.
I don't know how it works with H&N, but when JSB are doing a branded production run they only use one machine and one die for the complete order. Their own pellets run on the remaining machines and thus multiple dies.
@@hftshooter that may well be it then 👍. H&N might just use specific dies for the BSAs hence my gun preferring the Goldstars despite all the specs being identical to the FTTs.
Interesting video … but every barrel is different … the wolverine might not preform as well as the AA with those pellets (or vice versa) … tbh shows me how inconsistent JSB’s are now and also depends on the die … my steyr loves die 80 jsb 8.44 4.52 but with die 62 it throws them like a shotgun …
You're right Ian, every barrel is different which is why I would encourage everyone to test for themselves and not take things at face value. Of course, it depends upon the results you need to achieve for the type of shooting you're doing.
Great video think at some point need a part two with pellet washing and lubing and maybe add in outdoor to see if these variations take more or less wind but I think setting any kind of control group would be difficult at best. Keep up the good work 👍
Thanks. I did think about the wash and lube, but don't have any lube. There's so much to cover it's easy to get carried away and end up with a one hour video. But you're right, there's definitely more to do in future. 🙂👍
I just tried to size some Hades 15.89 gr at 5.5 mm and none of them would size from 5.48 to 5.57 . Other one's I've sized went from 5.51 to 5.54 these two tins wouldn't even size at all in my scale 😢
In this sport , whatever level you shoot at , do whatever you think works best for you ! First and foremost , I pick a pellet that gives me the best groups out of my setup and stick to it ! It is unfortunate , we end up with so many tins we will probably never use , getting to that magic pellet . Lol
Have you ever weighed a pellet, taken the pellet off the scales, and then weighed the same pellet again. I have gone through about 5 sets of scales and it happens a lot. Please do a video of you weighing the pellets then rechecking the weight again.
I've done that a few times for my own piece of mind and I find my scales are pretty reliable, but I do place the pellets on carefully with tweezers. The thing is, unless you spend loads on properly calibrated laboratory scales you are not going to get great accuracy. However, I don't really care about true weight but rather how pellets compare to each other , and the odd hundredth of a grain isn't significant.
Interesting, apparently you find no noteworthy difference in accuracy between the different head sizes, in my experience it makes a significant difference. This is based on trials I've done using my HW98, HW100, and Vulcan 2, all in .177 (FAC for you guys across the North Sea) shooting H&N Baracuda Match as that's what they seem to prefer of diablos. I've shot 4.50, 4.51, and 4.52s through all of them, and maybe it's just a coincidence, but they _all_ group tighter with either 4.50s, or pellets of the same brand/model I've resized to 4.50 mm, the groups open up the higher I go in actual caliber. As for your Test #4, in my experience, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the pellets we get over here in DK - according to my lead pusher, FX pellets are rebranded JSBs but FX supposedly does their own QC on them and send them back if they fail the test, so in _theory_ they _should_ be more consistent in weight/size/etc. than the other rebranded JSBs, but I can't tell the difference in accuracy, in my guns JSB and FX hit all over the place compared to the H&Ns. No, I'm not sponsored by H&N.😄 The last test caught me a bit by surprise, to be honest, think I'll have to do a bit of testing of my own, thanks for taking the time to put this video together.
@@hftshooter I'm not sure exactly what happens, in theory it shouldn't matter a great deal exactly what head size we use, irrespective of power output, as any halfway decent UK _or_ DK rifle is easily capable of sending any pellet down the barrel. I mean, it's not like _any_ pellet that comes out the muzzle by some sort of magic happens to be larger than the bore when it exits. The only thing I'm certain of is that between the guns my shooting buddy and I use, heavier pellets or even slugs, do a lot better than lighter pellets, but head size apparently makes a difference as well, although I have no idea _why._ I would imagine that in a rifle with a lower power output, the head size would have a greater influence on accuracy, but apparently it's the other way around, go figure.
I think the variability of accuracy on weight and head size does matter in certain barrels, but not all. I have an FX Dreamline that is easily most accurate with 4.49 head size pellets
Thanks for your comment. Personally I've yet to be persuaded that slugs work in a sub12 rifle and I don't think I would ever use them, but never say never. 😉👍
I've been shooting air rifles for over 45 years with my collection of rifles ranging from vintage 1920s BSA spring powered tap loaders, and 1970s onward PCPs. My latest add being a BRK Ghost (all being sub 12ft pounds). The old style slugs were really just only ever for FAC rated guns but the new lighter designed ones are a huge step away from those. I've been experimenting with them from their earliest introduction and must say, yes I've had mixed results but surprisingly amazed at how they have come on. My old tap loaders love them as those barrels were never choked. Modern springers like my TX 200 HC are even OK but probably not best suited. My older 70s PCPs (like my original Daystate Midas and MK ll Huntsman seem to like them as well). I have a cheap Snowpeak P35 which seems to absolutely love them and even my BRK Ghost is giving good result although that seems to like the heavier 13g ZANs as they are slightly longer than the 10g so load better into the mag and chamber better. It's been a journey I'm quite enjoying 👍
What I did notice is you do not get a lot more for your money when you buy the over priced Day state. Air Arms S400 is a great rifle for the money, get a reg fitted to it and you have a first class bit of kit
Hi Mike, both rifles are second-hand with the Daystate 4x the price of the 400. The S400 is all the rifle you'll ever need for target or hunting. Watch my 'sweet spot' video then tell me the S400 still needs a regulator. Might be lucky with mine but a reg isn't going to make it any more consistent than it already is! 😉👍
My first PCP was the S400. then I bought the Steyr LG110 in 177 an incredible accurate rifle, the only problem with it is having big hands, loading them tiny pellets in is a real pain I tend to drop a few on the floor. Just under a year ago I bought the FX Impact M3 in 22 (FAC) it is a dream to shoot the mag is easy to load. having said that to get extreme accuracy you really need some of the optional extras, On a no wind day this rifle consistently produces half inch groups at 100 yards. I drive the 25.39 JSB KO Slugs at 968 fps. Glad I bought a compressor as at 120 shots per fill would need regular trips to the dive shop if using tanks @@hftshooter
May I suggest that you do these tests again, but this time run every pellet through a pellet sizer? Differing weights are one thing but if the pellets are different sizes they won't be consistent.
From my experimentation: I agree regard pellet weight. WRT head size - the head size shown on the JSB tins rarely correlate to the head size in the tin. Using a Pelletgage, I have found head sizes ranging from 4.49 to 4.55 within the same tin regardless of the size shown on the tin (the JSB Premium has far smaller spread). In my rifle, pellets with measured head size of 4.52 and 4.53 give the smallest groups, the further the head size deviates the bigger the group. I agree batch number does make a difference. The batch number with least deviation in head size and a head size that suits your gun will produce the smallest groups. Main brands better - not a safe claim, it depends on the variation in the tin. Skirts - not done that test. In your experiment did you use consistent heads size pellets - it might be the group size was affected more by the head size than skirt distortion.
Thanks for sharing. Perhaps I need to get a head sizer and test this myself. What head sizer do you use? As for the skirts, I didn't size the heads, but since the video many shooters have told me they've had the same results. 🙂👍
Interesting video. I'd have to say though that most scales people are using simply aren't accurate enough to weigh down to 0.1 grain plus you've calibrated it with a 50g standard. I'm saying this as someone who has worked in research labs using scales that cost a great deal more than the kind you are using and are calibrated using a range of standards capable of accurate readings down to 0.0001g.
I would agree. What I didn't show is if I weigh the same pellet numerous times on my scales I get the same reading. Therefore, I assume that if two pellets read as 8.44 grain then they are equal in weight if not exactly the weight indicated. I think that's a fair assumption.
Perfect test. One of the best airrifle reviews and tests is on TH-cam. Only think if you can make your videos a bit shorter, they will be exceptional . Subscribe because of this beautiful informative video
Thanks. I hear you about the length. Sometimes there's just too much to say (most of the time 😂) and I don't like the idea of parts 1&2. You are the first to mention it though! 🙂
One myth that heavier pellets will only produce more energy is incorrect. Its down to which type/weight is more suited. I had this with Bisley Magnum & Sovereigns, the Sovereigns produced 1.5ftlb more energy.
With the benefit of hindsight I think the groups would have been tighter if I'd not used the rest and shot how I normally would on a bench. However, the test conditions were the same throughout so I think the conclusions were valid.
@@hftshooter low right corner was worst, how i would of done it would be, clean barrel shoot 10-20shots then group, repeat it can take 1-2 up to 15 shots for barrel to catch up with different pellet
Afternoon love following your show It's said it's All about the grouping yarda yarda very good but for the love of God zero that bull and and take the sucker out just for the show of it . Aiming for the dot but generally happy with the group anywhere other than taking the Bull out marksman like All the best Mark Ps not got a clue myself but it's great that people like you are out there to follow
The dies have the most impact on group size!Pellets from some dies perform well in most rifles and exceptionally well in some cases while pellets from other dies are absolutely useless!
interesting tried some of those tests and got different results 😂😂😂 but i find guns are a fickle thing tx shoots 4.52 but definitely shoots 4.51 or 4.50 better not a massive amount but the difference between a split line or in the bull circle ⭕️ on bench rest targets 98 shoots any thing half decent and size does not seem to matter that much . red wolf shoots jsb short’s like a laser . as for weight most of the time i have bothered to way pellets out the tin they are not far enough out that i noticed to much difference . sizing them i noticed i definitely get less flyers
Hi Paul, I approach everything from an HFT perspective so the odd mm isn't an issue. I agree bench rest is a different animal where everything counts. 👍
That was some serious Stephen Hawking stuff Jeff.. _ucking pellet Porn or what.. 👍👍 great video and thanks for doing it.. as you know I'm a new shooter and I thought I was going crazy sometimes while shooting.. but this makes sense.. weight counts.. I bought some cheap pellets just to see the difference.. I went back to the heavier ones.. and smacked 25mm spinners at 30 odd meters.. from a cheap BOG tripod (£125) And off hand to.. with crossman domed ultra magnum... not the most expensive well £6 cheaper than the rest.. I bought them all before.. no difference in them compared to Air Arms or Weihrauch or Jsb's.. oh I'm .22.. but same results.. bent ones wonky pellets. Still 5 pence peice at 30 odd meters.. bullseye most of them in the wind to.. like you taught me in another video wait for the wins to calm down 👍👍👍🤣 I better go cause If the girlfriend sees me messaging you I'm truly _ucked 😂😂 👍👌🤘 J x
This is not busted this test shows both your rifles shoot a tighter group with the 8.4 pellets, and if you were to do this again but keep the weigh difference to .02 of a gn you would see a difference between batches ,the way you have weighed them is upto a full gn difference, i know this works as ive done it ,dont worry about the crono ,its where the point of impact is
@hftshooter I know it's a lot of hard work ,but it's all part of the fun , just dont do what I did and let your m8 use your rifle and home loads and he then beats you on the tightest group comp 🤪
even if some of your results I would not fully agree on (especially the 8.3 std deviation which to me seems so much better) it was still interesting to see how little of a difference all he myths make wile the myth would have it you get crazy flyers ! My take on this is, that unless you do extreme bench-rest or unless you have cybernetic steadiness in your stance, all myths are at least partially busted :)
Having just started to try benchrest, I'm starting to think that pellet selection is important for the millimetre accuracy needed. I will be testing that theory at some time.
I'll have to add ..lool ,,,,,,,I short my pellets by weight. ,,,I live my pellets ,,,,,and my groups from a avenger. And akela are way tighter than this ,,,yes each gun like a certain pellet weight n design ,,,,,but sorting and lubeing helps out tremendously for my shoting at 50 yrds
Wow! I know that this video took a lot of hard work...Thanks for the very interesting test of those pellet. For me, I have noticed that for short distances up to and around 60 yards, a slightly damaged skirt (as you demonstrate so well with an unexpected outcome,) doesn't change your POI too much...but shooting out to over 80+ yards with a damaged skirt will make a difference I have noticed. This was a fantastic video mate and I did Subscribe! (So one more closer) Cheers, Mark. TH-cam Channel: Farm Pest Management-Airgun
I use pellets in my FX Impact .22cal with a 600mm barrel, and I'm reaching out to 187 yards with accurate hits on the Corvids...so that also might qualify as a Debunking of Airgun Pellets! Hahaha! PS: And I just noticed...thank you mate for one more for me...Hahaha! Cheers, Mark. TH-cam Channel: Farm Pest Management-Airgun@@hftshooter
Back reg on 90 bar, Power wheel on 16, Quick tune on 3. I'm at 935fps, (keeping it nicely below 940-945 fps), shooting JSB Jumbo heavy Diabolo 18.13gr In my FX Impact .30 cal, I'm shooting NSA 47.2gr Slugs PS: In my TH-cam videos "Rabbits & Ravens" or "Raven & Rabbits", I have a few long distant shots that I was well chuffed about, and they were clean and humane! Cheers, Mark. TH-cam Channel: Farm Pest Management-Airgun@@hftshooter
5 shot groups for any kind of testing are not sufficient to create meaningful data. A minimum of 20 shots will get you close to a real number. 5 shot groups are no better than random. Even zeroing a rifle with five shots is not reliable.
Sorry but head size makes A difference no question. The die number also makes a massive difference and if you get a good one that works for your gun, but then all ! Git to be honest , your Air arms does not seem to be that accurate at all ? Have you cleaned it at all ??
I can only assess what I found on the day, but with the benefit of hindsight It would probably have been better testing without the gun rest as I found it uncomfortable to shoot with. I should have shot how I normally would and probably at a shorter range as others have suggested. As some other videos will attest the rifle is usually very accurate and I've won a few rounds at Cambridge HFT with it.
You cannot draw the conclusions you did from such s small number of shots, AND you need to actually measure group size in x and y a nd with calipers not a ruler. 20 shots per group may well give a different result.
Useless (and confusing). We all know that the "marginal" weight differences (within the same pellet model) do not mean all that much, both, in terms of velocity/energy and in terms of accuracy. However, differences in energy and - especially - in accuracy between different MODELS of pellets, might be (and usually are) significant, even though they weigh the same. As for "distorted" pellets vs "regulars": it depends on the severity of the distortion (and that too is a well-known fact - we didn't need yet another hot water inventing).
Thank you for your insight and personal opinion. Please don't assume "We all know" stuff as it simply isn't true. These were my own results and opinions at the time, other people's may differ. Take care! 🙂👍
@@hftshooter No, by 'we' I mean HFT shooters, it's been done to death. The thing with being new to something is exactly that, it all seems new to you, you forget folk before you have been doing this for years and their work is easily available on sites like STB and others. As you progress in the sport you will realise how basic these 'revelations' are....I've been there myself mate!! All the best. (I might even reply to a post aimed at me one day...😉😁)
@@hftshooter Try do understand this: if your aim is to inform novices (people who are new to airguns) then this video (these videos of yours) has (have) its (their) purpose. But, in your videos you are addressing people who are involved in HFT and Benchrest, guys VERY MUCH experienced, already, since they came long, long way from their first brakebarrel that they got, say, when they were kids, and have shot thousands of pellets... It's like going to the battlefield in Syria, gathering soldiers from all sides and teaching them a lessson: "Hey, boys, believe it or not, these assault rifles in your hands can kill a human being!"
Why does such a serious person weigh pellets on such crappy chinese scales without any legalization? After all, it is easier to buy Premium pellets from JSB Exact Premium that are already weighed and have a weight of +/- 0.001 g? To weigh such precise masses, you need a scale in minimum class II. I consider the scale test to be distorted and unfortunately incorrect. 50 grams is not a reference.
I'm not alone in using these types of scales to weigh pellets, although I don't currently weigh pellets for competition I use straight from the tin. I agree that the weight reading given may not be super accurate but they do allow pellet to pellet comparison. They allow you to identify pellets that weigh the same and those that are significantly heavier or lighter, so they do serve a purpose. It would be great if all manufacturers provided pellets in a tin with strict weight control, but they don't. Thanks for commenting.
@@hftshooterjust yanking your chain, great video although I was confused by the excel table you put up. What was the std deviation figure in reference to?
I really do not mean any offence, but your shooting is so randomn its almost meaningless....sorry. (And on a rest as well...😂😂😂) On another note, the 'W' is pronounced as a 'V'....German manufacturer. Your test on different labels for same tins is meaningless, because they were all different dies. The rules apply, its the die that matters, not the picture on the tin. To suggest that different dies having an effect is 'plausible' is nonsense. Its a fact, and you call yourself a HFT shooter???😂 The damaged skirts will have a much different outcome in the wind, as it acts on the pellet . The head size on a tin is meaningless, we all know this, so unless you measured them yourself, then the difference was, again, the die number only. Airguns are dynamic things, and to shoot a few pellets then declare a result is, quite frankly, nonsense. I categorically disagree with you.
Thank you for not being offensive. 😅 Facts have to be supported by solid evidence, something that I've yet to see or experience myself in connection with die numbers. However, you are welcome to your opinion which I respect, and I would never mock you for holding it! Good luck to you. 🙂👍
@@hftshooter There is endless solid evidence from all the respected names in shooting, on a site called 'shooting the breeze' (And others). It really has been done to death, it's not my opinion, it's been tested and discussed, and tested, and discussed ad infinitum!!! Don't run before you can walk....been there, done that!!😁
Well done! I'm not surprised at the results; sometimes we create our own "problems" in our mind! Thank you for your time and energy!!
Thank you! 👍
There’s something fascinating about the lead diabolo air rifle pellet.
Such a tiny soft thing of perfect shape. (That’s what she said)
IMHO this confirms the folly of paying for mortgage-deposit priced guns for accuracy reasons when we are at the mercy of such variable quality pellets. Of course this is not to say that the joy of owning something of quality and beauty isn't of great appeal. Great to see the giant-killer AA S400 doing its thing - what a brilliant gun.
I’d never considered the intense pressure of the propellant air reforming the pellet skirt in the barrel! Learnt some new things today, thanks!
Thanks for watching and commenting. 🙂👍
I think the bent skirts actually fire-form with the softer lead compounds. The fact the skirt is off the contact gives the blast of air momentum on the skirt and actually ends up causing a better seal and bite into the grooves.
Very interesting idea! I think that would work with rifles at nearly 12ft/lbs, but would not work in a target pistol at about 2 joules? Not enough pressure to “fireform” the skirt for optimum obturation.
@@howardmaryon indeed. I don't believe any manufacturer uses soft enough lead for this effect to work at that lower power.
Another really interesting set of tests. I was lucky enough to test 3 different dies of JSBs recently, at Borders Wood, and one in particular liked my rifle. As JSB had a special deal on, I bought a load to keep me going for a while. I agree about the concentration and tiredness, as when I tested the pellets, I'd just shot a full (long!) round of HFT and by the end of the test, my neck and shoulders had really had enough! One to bear in mind - get shooting-fit..!
Thanks Martin. Yes, shooting fitness is a thing, but I hate working out. 😅👍
The numbers on the back of a pellet tin do not show the actual head size of each pellet in the tin if you use a pellet gauge, you will find a mix of head sizes usually in jsb from 4.50 up to 4.54. Even when the labels say 4.51 or 4.53.
I hear you Keith, and would tend to agree that like pellet weight a tin may contain a mix of head sizes, but I have yet to collate any evidence to prove that. However, in an interview I saw recently with JSB Director of Operations he clearly states that they have production dies for each of the head sizes and a perfect pellet without any damage should have the head size stated on the tin. I've seen some head gauges and they all seem a bit too cheap to be wholly accurate to 0.01mm.
That was a difficult one Jeff. I think there were too many variables (and not all considered) over relatively few data points to come to a conclusuion but well done for giving it a go 👍
It is what it is. The results are all there for anyone to make their own conclusions.
Interesting video well presented, I have an S410 .22 that I find very tolerant of various pellets, and never found a distorted pellet skirt makes any difference I've always thought the skirt reforms when pushed into the breach.
Cool, thanks.🙂👍
Very interesting ! For pellets with a deformed skirt, I reform them with the wooden end of a small paintbrush 🖌, to the right size, and honestly it doesn't pose a problem!
Good tip!
You do get more flyers if you leave the skirts damaged , it's obvious. I have a very small skirt straightener that I use and it works everytime opposed to wobbly skirts. 👍
Obvious? Depends upon the amount of deformation surely! 🙂
Nice video. I would have added a last test. Using only the best batch (dye) for each gun, and then sorting by weight and head size and also a 3rd category of identical weights AND head sizes from the best dye. I am pretty sure you would get interesting and conclusive results as I have done these same tests myself on many rifles until I have found the best combo for competition. Another suggestion would be removing the rifle stock and clamping it straight to a heavy table using 2 bolted vices (and eventual weights to the table) therefore eliminating any potential human error and getting rid of an extra variable....Thanks again for that video.
I would disagree with pellet head size . I’ve been shooting bench rest competitions for 15 years and pellet head size definitely matters , in pellet testing I have found certain head sizes perform better than others in my rifles . Also breach size my hw97k will only hold and shoot 4:53 if I put a 4:51 or 4;52 in they will literally drop out the breach and terrible flyiers
Hi Dean. I can only comment on my own experience and testing. I simply interpreted the results I saw on the video, where I found what you saw. If you've found some different that works for you then great! Good luck with your benchrest shooting.
Is that down to manufacturing tolerances perhaps?
Another 97 might prefer 4.51 for example?
@@redpillnibbler4423 yes but that is why you have to pellet test to find the best pellet head size for each rifle
Well done sir, thoroughly enjoyable video, great pace and to the point. Nice to see a knowledgeable chap doing his homework to debunk theories held by some so called experts. Subscribed.
Many thanks. Nice to get a positive comment on this video for a change. 🙂👍
I concur your content is both practical, useful and easy to comprehend. I would be really interested to know the make and model of your pellet scales (and where you purchased them of course). I've been trying to find a scale with a two decimal place reading for ages without success.
I got my scales from ebay. I've had a search and found an identical item with ebay item number 126048721920 or search for "50g/0.001g Digital Milligram Scale High Precision Jewelry Balance Powder Scale"
Be careful. Just because a scale reads to the milligram doesn’t mean it’s accurate to that level.
Bought mine on Amazon it actually has three decimal points , for under $30
@@AirRuna1 again: just because it reads to 3 decimal places, doesn’t mean it’s accurate to that.
@thabood it is though you just have to be smarter than the scale calibrated mine with a pharmaceutical scale
Very well done and you are right because you PROVED IT.
Nice demostration.
The skirt has a thicker side and a thinner side.
If the pellet was indexed into the chamber say heavy or light side up, would that affect poi?
I've seen another video on the topic where they tried that and it didn't seem to make a difference. I haven't tested it myself.
Fantastic !!! The best test I have seen for pellets.
Wow, thanks! 😀👍
Very interesting results. I think the biggest takeaway, is that the S 400, seems to shoot better than the Wolverine. Who would’ve thought it? 👍
Thanks. Yes that S400 is a great rifle.
The S400 barrel is superb, I used one & it even shocked me with the accuracy. Even out to 95-125yds
I have an AGT Vixen which doesnt seem fussy at all yet my HW100 when you compare 4.50 to 4.52 heads shoot notably different, 4.52 are a much tighter group. Again great video.
Interesting. I guess there are always exceptions. 🙂👍
Just a note to say how much I enjoy your channel, from across the pond.
Thank you, really appreciate you taking the time to tell me that. 😀👍
Very interesting results. Thanks for taking the time to do the testing. I've always found sorting pellets tedious, so I'm delighted with that one! You've earned a sub!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for the sub. 🙂👍
Great content and got a new subscriber here, knowing about some of this stuff it's fantastic to see it put to the test in a controlled and unbiased way, 45 yards might be a touch ambitious for my 70's original Hurricane pistol though lol my 15m garden is plenty for me.
Keep up the great content, scope mounting video for me next 👌
Many thanks. I haven't done a basic scope mount video as there are so many already, but check out my earlier 2 scope vids as there are some mounting tips in there. 👍
I live in the Philippines - shoot a locally made regulated (1,500 PSI plenum - 4,500 bottle) 22 cal PCP using local pellets. They all have to be sized (head and skirt) and still need to be force seated.
I made a pellet seater from a 1/4" nail by rounding end. The fact that the seater is actually of a larger diameter insures that the skirt to reformed and the pellet set at the same depth each time.
75 yards - 125 feet - 68m? 1/2" to 3/4" groups - 1.27cm / 1.9cm
Sounds like fun! 😲 Thanks for sharing. 😀👍
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you so much. You have answering questions I have had for
the last six years. How to determine the most accurate pellet for my guns. Just purchased
a S400H, best rifle I own. From Tucson, AZ. Garry
Glad it was helpful. 😀👍
Great videos I've bought a HW97K one year old,what scope would you recommend for shooting hft, as that's what I want to do when I'm comfy with the gun.
That's a difficult one to answer Maurice. Whatever you choose you probably want a smaller objective, not a 50mm. Try out as many other shooters scopes as you can. It's a very personal thing. But a few to look at - Hawke Airmax or vantage, MTC connect and Optimax CP.
Great informative vlog my friend, and a new subscriber. 👍 found lately that j.s.b pellets seem a lot lthinner lead than they used to be. And that daystate is grouping like a shot gun lol, always Q.Y.S for me ❤
Thanks for the sub. I've noticed JSB quality appears to have reduced, have to take a closer look at the skirts. 👍
Lets agree to dis agree. I did get different results with my testing. The only time I did shoot indoor was at 25m with 'n AAS400 Classic and it was from a good benchrest setup 25 shot and I did shoot 250 with 17 x.
No problem. I would fully expect you to get different results. The important thing here is you did your own testing! 🙂👍
Thanks. Lots of things I don't need to obsess over 🙂👍
Yes, I try to opt for the KISS option mostly, but I always question everything. 🙂
What did you use to get the perfect circles and perfect size to the mm, circles on your group sizing piece of acetate? Thanks
I have a set of technical drawing stencils that include precise circles.
@@hftshooterthanks for the reply. Where can I get them from to make my own?
If you Google technical drawing stencil you'll find Amazon have some that are reasonably priced. 👍
A set ordered. Many thanks for pointing me in the right direction. 👍
I was plinking one day and put all the distorted pellets in my 14 shot magazine and lo and behold they shot just as good if not slightly better than the good pellets. Definitely a myth 😅
Yep! 😅
Just a theory , but if the pellet is not “to “ deformed , the amount of air pressure exerted probably expanded and reshapes the skirt going out . Fly better , I doubt it !
Yes, I think that extra movement may sometimes seat the pellet better.
Because the air blast pushes the soft lead skirt out uniformly against the rifling.
Distorted heads is another matter.
I went to the indoor range and tried to zero my PCP, HW100. What a nightmare, got a new tin of 500 1.77 and as if by magic almost pellet on pellet.
I didn't expect the weight one to make any significant difference (with those weights) but I was really interested in the bent skirt test. I bin mine like everyone else but I've often thought the skirt would expand when fired anyway and make little to no difference.
FWIW, I shoot H&N FTT 4.52 in both my S400 and HW98, good as any I've tried inc JSB.
A pellet sizer is good for reshaping skirts if you don't want to shoot them as they are. 🙂👍
I probably throw 1/2 doz per tin, not worth the hassle LOL.,
Have you tried sizing as well, as the bench rest guys do that, then weigh, and then lube just before the match.
Hi Ian, I will probably cover that in a future video. I've yet to see any credible and compelling evidence that it achieves anything other than a placebo effect.
I agree with you ,ok I shot center fire ,I would weigh the cases ,full lenth trim them ,some would measure internal volume of the cases ,I would weigh the power and the heads all down to .02 of a gn ,it makes a world of difference, we would not use a rule to measure we would use an computer group measuring tool ,that would do to the thou of an inch ,great tool ,we were getting 1 hole groups and ragged hole groups ,his results sho both his rifles performed better with the 8.4 gn pellets, if he was to do this test again but batch them down to .02 of a gn as he's allowing almost 1 gn difference between batches ,if he's weighing 8.30 , gn up to 8.39 then that's a full
gn difference
Very interesting , gonna have to watch it again and take it all in .. had a long shift at work and ready for beddy byes .. one thing I did notice was the deformed skirt groups , think its been proven in the past that it doesn't really matter that much .. the pressure in the barrel forms them on the way down to the muzzle end .. unless you hit em with an hammer first .. THEN you'll see a difference .. but yeah .. gonna watch again tomorrow
Thanks Mark, I think you're right about the skirts though personally hadn't heard that before.
Good work Jeff, thanks for putting in the time and effort.
You are very welcome.
In my HW100 I look for JSB with a low batch number usually 1
I have heard (but not been unable to confirm) ‘0’ means newly manufactured die, ‘1’ first refurbishment, ‘2’ second refurb etc,
Thank you for an interesting video were the pellets used for each test weighed ?
Only the ones in the weighed pellet test.
some interesting results. I only sort pellets to chrono when checking power unless I have noticed a brand of pellet has a large variance in weight.
Thanks. I've weighed individual pellets to get accurate chronograph results at times.
4.51 head size definitely produces tighter groups, and if you varied the speed, it would have shown even more. My theory is that concentricity inconsistencies are more of a factor. I had a tapered hollow tube and push pun to check .25 caliber and found amazing things. The branded pellets were at least 30-40% less than the JSB. I use a joker holder with my tube. The head of the pellet just protrudes, and the skirt is braced with the square-ended push pin. Then it is rotated for runout
Thanks for sharing.
That would be an interesting experiment, to have a transparent barrel and high speed camera to give a very slow motion view of the pellet as it was fired to see if it actually does re form in the barrel?
Or you could just fire a pellet into a non-deforming media and inspect it afterwards? 🤔
What are the twist rates on them barrels, and how many lands, ?
I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea, sorry.
The problem is, as you've shown the Die number is a plausible one. This probably accounts for the disparity in the OEM v branded pellets. I use BSA Goldstars ( rebranded H&M FTTs) whatever dies they use ( maybe specific ones for specific branding) the BSAs just edge the H&Ms for me.
I don't know how it works with H&N, but when JSB are doing a branded production run they only use one machine and one die for the complete order. Their own pellets run on the remaining machines and thus multiple dies.
@@hftshooter that may well be it then 👍. H&N might just use specific dies for the BSAs hence my gun preferring the Goldstars despite all the specs being identical to the FTTs.
Is allowed to bring the pellets only in the airport sir?
I have no idea, best to ask your airline.
Hi there, I’m local to Cambridge. Are you shooting at a public range?
Hi Christian, I shoot mostly at Cambridge HFT Airgun Club which is near Shepreth. There is an outdoor plinking range there.
Interesting video … but every barrel is different … the wolverine might not preform as well as the AA with those pellets (or vice versa) … tbh shows me how inconsistent JSB’s are now and also depends on the die … my steyr loves die 80 jsb 8.44 4.52 but with die 62 it throws them like a shotgun …
You're right Ian, every barrel is different which is why I would encourage everyone to test for themselves and not take things at face value. Of course, it depends upon the results you need to achieve for the type of shooting you're doing.
Great video think at some point need a part two with pellet washing and lubing and maybe add in outdoor to see if these variations take more or less wind but I think setting any kind of control group would be difficult at best. Keep up the good work 👍
Thanks. I did think about the wash and lube, but don't have any lube. There's so much to cover it's easy to get carried away and end up with a one hour video. But you're right, there's definitely more to do in future. 🙂👍
I just tried to size some Hades 15.89 gr at 5.5 mm and none of them would size from 5.48 to 5.57 . Other one's I've sized went from 5.51 to 5.54 these two tins wouldn't even size at all in my scale 😢
I've heard many comments about mixed head sizes in tins or pellets not being anywhere near the quoted head size.
how din you know the pellet head size? did you just use the numbers on the tin or did you use a pellet gauge?
Just the numbers on the tin.
at 15.51 on video shows, the number on the back of the pellet tin shows head size and the batch number. I think that applys to all makes.
In this sport , whatever level you shoot at , do whatever you think works best for you !
First and foremost , I pick a pellet that gives me the best groups out of my setup and stick to it !
It is unfortunate , we end up with so many tins we will probably never use , getting to that magic pellet . Lol
So true! 😀👍
Have you ever weighed a pellet, taken the pellet off the scales, and then weighed the same pellet again. I have gone through about 5 sets of scales and it happens a lot. Please do a video of you weighing the pellets then rechecking the weight again.
I've done that a few times for my own piece of mind and I find my scales are pretty reliable, but I do place the pellets on carefully with tweezers. The thing is, unless you spend loads on properly calibrated laboratory scales you are not going to get great accuracy. However, I don't really care about true weight but rather how pellets compare to each other , and the odd hundredth of a grain isn't significant.
Enjoyed that video, thanks for your time and effort 👍🏻
No problem 👍
Interesting, apparently you find no noteworthy difference in accuracy between the different head sizes, in my experience it makes a significant difference. This is based on trials I've done using my HW98, HW100, and Vulcan 2, all in .177 (FAC for you guys across the North Sea) shooting H&N Baracuda Match as that's what they seem to prefer of diablos. I've shot 4.50, 4.51, and 4.52s through all of them, and maybe it's just a coincidence, but they _all_ group tighter with either 4.50s, or pellets of the same brand/model I've resized to 4.50 mm, the groups open up the higher I go in actual caliber.
As for your Test #4, in my experience, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the pellets we get over here in DK - according to my lead pusher, FX pellets are rebranded JSBs but FX supposedly does their own QC on them and send them back if they fail the test, so in _theory_ they _should_ be more consistent in weight/size/etc. than the other rebranded JSBs, but I can't tell the difference in accuracy, in my guns JSB and FX hit all over the place compared to the H&Ns. No, I'm not sponsored by H&N.😄
The last test caught me a bit by surprise, to be honest, think I'll have to do a bit of testing of my own, thanks for taking the time to put this video together.
All this testing stuff gets a bit addictive. Might you have noticed a difference due to the higher power? Thanks for sharing. 🙂👍
@@hftshooter I'm not sure exactly what happens, in theory it shouldn't matter a great deal exactly what head size we use, irrespective of power output, as any halfway decent UK _or_ DK rifle is easily capable of sending any pellet down the barrel. I mean, it's not like _any_ pellet that comes out the muzzle by some sort of magic happens to be larger than the bore when it exits. The only thing I'm certain of is that between the guns my shooting buddy and I use, heavier pellets or even slugs, do a lot better than lighter pellets, but head size apparently makes a difference as well, although I have no idea _why._ I would imagine that in a rifle with a lower power output, the head size would have a greater influence on accuracy, but apparently it's the other way around, go figure.
I think the variability of accuracy on weight and head size does matter in certain barrels, but not all. I have an FX Dreamline that is easily most accurate with 4.49 head size pellets
Whatever works for you. 🙂👍
Thank you very much for that video I think that was eye opening and very informational
Glad you enjoyed it!
It would have been nice to see another test of how the latest slugs compare to traditional pellets, just a thought 😊 👍
Thanks for your comment. Personally I've yet to be persuaded that slugs work in a sub12 rifle and I don't think I would ever use them, but never say never. 😉👍
I've been shooting air rifles for over 45 years with my collection of rifles ranging from vintage 1920s BSA spring powered tap loaders, and 1970s onward PCPs. My latest add being a BRK Ghost (all being sub 12ft pounds). The old style slugs were really just only ever for FAC rated guns but the new lighter designed ones are a huge step away from those. I've been experimenting with them from their earliest introduction and must say, yes I've had mixed results but surprisingly amazed at how they have come on. My old tap loaders love them as those barrels were never choked. Modern springers like my TX 200 HC are even OK but probably not best suited. My older 70s PCPs (like my original Daystate Midas and MK ll Huntsman seem to like them as well). I have a cheap Snowpeak P35 which seems to absolutely love them and even my BRK Ghost is giving good result although that seems to like the heavier 13g ZANs as they are slightly longer than the 10g so load better into the mag and chamber better. It's been a journey I'm quite enjoying 👍
That's interesting, thanks for sharing. Perhaps I shouldn't discard them so quickly? 🙂👍
Very informative and interesting results, well done and thanks.
Many thanks! 😀👍
thank you for going through all that work to make the video👍
My pleasure! 🙂👍
What were the die numbers on the branded and none branded pellets. Too many variables to come to a conclusion.
At the end of the day the only conclusion to make is "do they work in my barrel?"
@@hftshooter True, so you myth busted for your barrel.
What I did notice is you do not get a lot more for your money when you buy the over priced Day state. Air Arms S400 is a great rifle for the money, get a reg fitted to it and you have a first class bit of kit
Hi Mike, both rifles are second-hand with the Daystate 4x the price of the 400. The S400 is all the rifle you'll ever need for target or hunting. Watch my 'sweet spot' video then tell me the S400 still needs a regulator. Might be lucky with mine but a reg isn't going to make it any more consistent than it already is! 😉👍
My first PCP was the S400. then I bought the Steyr LG110 in 177 an incredible accurate rifle, the only problem with it is having big hands, loading them tiny pellets in is a real pain I tend to drop a few on the floor. Just under a year ago I bought the FX Impact M3 in 22 (FAC) it is a dream to shoot the mag is easy to load. having said that to get extreme accuracy you really need some of the optional extras, On a no wind day this rifle consistently produces half inch groups at 100 yards. I drive the 25.39 JSB KO Slugs at 968 fps. Glad I bought a compressor as at 120 shots per fill would need regular trips to the dive shop if using tanks @@hftshooter
Nope, I've run extensive tests using jsb exacts and the 4.50 and 4.51 head size are no where near as accurate as the 4.52 out of my fx rifle.
Whatever works for you is good! 👍
May I suggest that you do these tests again, but this time run every pellet through a pellet sizer? Differing weights are one thing but if the pellets are different sizes they won't be consistent.
Thanks for the suggestion. I have my own views about the efficacy of pellet sizers. I may include that in a future video.
From my experimentation:
I agree regard pellet weight.
WRT head size - the head size shown on the JSB tins rarely correlate to the head size in the tin. Using a Pelletgage, I have found head sizes ranging from 4.49 to 4.55 within the same tin regardless of the size shown on the tin (the JSB Premium has far smaller spread). In my rifle, pellets with measured head size of 4.52 and 4.53 give the smallest groups, the further the head size deviates the bigger the group.
I agree batch number does make a difference. The batch number with least deviation in head size and a head size that suits your gun will produce the smallest groups.
Main brands better - not a safe claim, it depends on the variation in the tin.
Skirts - not done that test. In your experiment did you use consistent heads size pellets - it might be the group size was affected more by the head size than skirt distortion.
Thanks for sharing. Perhaps I need to get a head sizer and test this myself. What head sizer do you use?
As for the skirts, I didn't size the heads, but since the video many shooters have told me they've had the same results. 🙂👍
Interesting video. I'd have to say though that most scales people are using simply aren't accurate enough to weigh down to 0.1 grain plus you've calibrated it with a 50g standard. I'm saying this as someone who has worked in research labs using scales that cost a great deal more than the kind you are using and are calibrated using a range of standards capable of accurate readings down to 0.0001g.
I would agree. What I didn't show is if I weigh the same pellet numerous times on my scales I get the same reading. Therefore, I assume that if two pellets read as 8.44 grain then they are equal in weight if not exactly the weight indicated. I think that's a fair assumption.
@@hftshooterAgreed; the old Accuracy vs Precision misunderstanding.
Perfect test. One of the best airrifle reviews and tests is on TH-cam. Only think if you can make your videos a bit shorter, they will be exceptional .
Subscribe because of this beautiful informative video
Thanks. I hear you about the length. Sometimes there's just too much to say (most of the time 😂) and I don't like the idea of parts 1&2. You are the first to mention it though! 🙂
Informative, cheers...
Thanks. 🙂👍
Very interesting and enjoyable video, got to love a s400 😊
Glad you enjoyed it. 🙂👍
One myth that heavier pellets will only produce more energy is incorrect. Its down to which type/weight is more suited. I had this with Bisley Magnum & Sovereigns, the Sovereigns produced 1.5ftlb more energy.
Thank you for your hard work. New subscriber.
Thanks for the sub!
S400 best buy
Totally agree. 🙂
your shooting position and location of target seems to effect results more than anything it seems
With the benefit of hindsight I think the groups would have been tighter if I'd not used the rest and shot how I normally would on a bench. However, the test conditions were the same throughout so I think the conclusions were valid.
@@hftshooter low right corner was worst, how i would of done it would be, clean barrel shoot 10-20shots then group, repeat
it can take 1-2 up to 15 shots for barrel to catch up with different pellet
All JSB pellets, so all exactly the same composition of lead!
@@hftshooter still takes few shots
Interesting thoughts.
I've tried the different head size and managed 2 different results on different days 😂
Yes, it's very difficult to get perfectly sterile test conditions isn't it. 🙂
Really interesting 👍
Thanks! 🙂👍
Main conclusion Daystate Barrel is more pellet fussy than The Air Arms barrel.
Well I guess you can draw that conclusion. 😄
Interesting results but could be different if outside with a slight wind😊
True, which is why I chose a sterile environment. 😉👍
Afternoon love following your show
It's said it's All about the grouping yarda yarda very good but for the love of God zero that bull and and take the sucker out just for the show of it .
Aiming for the dot but generally happy with the group anywhere other than taking the Bull out marksman like
All the best
Mark
Ps not got a clue myself but it's great that people like you are out there to follow
😂😂 ok Mark, just for you next time I'll take out the bull. 👍
Phenomenal gun the s400 more than holds its own
Certainly does. 😀👍
The dies have the most impact on group size!Pellets from some dies perform well in most rifles and exceptionally well in some cases while pellets from other dies are absolutely useless!
Everybody seems to have different experiences with dies. Very hit and miss, no pun intended. 😄
interesting tried some of those tests and got different results 😂😂😂 but i find guns are a fickle thing tx shoots 4.52 but definitely shoots 4.51 or 4.50 better not a massive amount but the difference between a split line or in the bull circle ⭕️ on bench rest targets 98 shoots any thing half decent and size does not seem to matter that much . red wolf shoots jsb short’s like a laser . as for weight most of the time i have bothered to way pellets out the tin they are not far enough out that i noticed to much difference . sizing them i noticed i definitely get less flyers
Hi Paul, I approach everything from an HFT perspective so the odd mm isn't an issue. I agree bench rest is a different animal where everything counts. 👍
Matt Gleason does this and he seems to have it work for him, so perhaps it may work?, just a thought.
I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing something that gives them more confidence when shooting.
Excellent video and interesting. No problem from me subscribing to your channel👍
Thanks for the sub! 🙂👍
That was some serious Stephen Hawking stuff Jeff.. _ucking pellet Porn or what.. 👍👍 great video and thanks for doing it.. as you know I'm a new shooter and I thought I was going crazy sometimes while shooting.. but this makes sense.. weight counts.. I bought some cheap pellets just to see the difference.. I went back to the heavier ones.. and smacked 25mm spinners at 30 odd meters.. from a cheap BOG tripod (£125) And off hand to.. with crossman domed ultra magnum... not the most expensive well £6 cheaper than the rest.. I bought them all before.. no difference in them compared to Air Arms or Weihrauch or Jsb's.. oh I'm .22.. but same results.. bent ones wonky pellets. Still 5 pence peice at 30 odd meters.. bullseye most of them in the wind to.. like you taught me in another video wait for the wins to calm down 👍👍👍🤣 I better go cause If the girlfriend sees me messaging you I'm truly _ucked 😂😂 👍👌🤘 J x
Cheers John. Good to hear you're doing well. 🙂👍
This is not busted this test shows both your rifles shoot a tighter group with the 8.4 pellets, and if you were to do this again but keep the weigh difference to .02 of a gn you would see a difference between batches ,the way you have weighed them is upto a full gn difference, i know this works as ive done it ,dont worry about the crono ,its where the point of impact is
Thanks for your comment. It's clear from yours and others comments that experiences vary on this topic. 👍
@hftshooter I know it's a lot of hard work ,but it's all part of the fun , just dont do what I did and let your m8 use your rifle and home loads and he then beats you on the tightest group comp 🤪
If shooting a five pellet group, measure a five pellet group. Pointless to only measure four, you may as well say I will just measure the best three.
Okay, point taken. 👍
even if some of your results I would not fully agree on (especially the 8.3 std deviation which to me seems so much better) it was still interesting to see how little of a difference all he myths make wile the myth would have it you get crazy flyers !
My take on this is, that unless you do extreme bench-rest or unless you have cybernetic steadiness in your stance, all myths are at least partially busted :)
Having just started to try benchrest, I'm starting to think that pellet selection is important for the millimetre accuracy needed. I will be testing that theory at some time.
I'll have to add ..lool ,,,,,,,I short my pellets by weight. ,,,I live my pellets ,,,,,and my groups from a avenger. And akela are way tighter than this ,,,yes each gun like a certain pellet weight n design ,,,,,but sorting and lubeing helps out tremendously for my shoting at 50 yrds
If that works for you then great. My own experience with my PCPs and springers is that it's not worth my time. 🙂👍
Wow! I know that this video took a lot of hard work...Thanks for the very interesting test of those pellet. For me, I have noticed that for short distances up to and around 60 yards, a slightly damaged skirt (as you demonstrate so well with an unexpected outcome,) doesn't change your POI too much...but shooting out to over 80+ yards with a damaged skirt will make a difference I have noticed. This was a fantastic video mate and I did Subscribe! (So one more closer) Cheers, Mark. TH-cam Channel: Farm Pest Management-Airgun
Thanks Mark, I really appreciate that. 🙂👍
I use pellets in my FX Impact .22cal with a 600mm barrel, and I'm reaching out to 187 yards with accurate hits on the Corvids...so that also might qualify as a Debunking of Airgun Pellets! Hahaha! PS: And I just noticed...thank you mate for one more for me...Hahaha!
Cheers, Mark. TH-cam Channel: Farm Pest Management-Airgun@@hftshooter
What power are you running to get 187 yards?
Back reg on 90 bar, Power wheel on 16, Quick tune on 3. I'm at 935fps, (keeping it nicely below 940-945 fps), shooting JSB Jumbo heavy Diabolo 18.13gr
In my FX Impact .30 cal, I'm shooting NSA 47.2gr Slugs
PS: In my TH-cam videos "Rabbits & Ravens" or "Raven & Rabbits", I have a few long distant shots that I was well chuffed about, and they were clean and humane!
Cheers, Mark. TH-cam Channel: Farm Pest Management-Airgun@@hftshooter
5 shot groups for any kind of testing are not sufficient to create meaningful data. A minimum of 20 shots will get you close to a real number. 5 shot groups are no better than random. Even zeroing a rifle with five shots is not reliable.
Thanks for your comment. You may be right and I'd be interested in seeing any definitive evidence you may have to support your opinion. 🙂👍
Should be tighter groups than that on a fixed stand . I could do better free hand with me old bsa scorpion
I am a mere beginner, but happy with my progress!
@@hftshooter great video mate just saying if they are in a fixed riffle rest groups should be pellet on pellet
Sorry but head size makes A difference no question. The die number also makes a massive difference and if you get a good one that works for your gun, but then all ! Git to be honest , your Air arms does not seem to be that accurate at all ? Have you cleaned it at all ??
I can only assess what I found on the day, but with the benefit of hindsight It would probably have been better testing without the gun rest as I found it uncomfortable to shoot with. I should have shot how I normally would and probably at a shorter range as others have suggested. As some other videos will attest the rifle is usually very accurate and I've won a few rounds at Cambridge HFT with it.
@@hftshooter I have won a few there too . 👍
At the end of the day if sorting and weighing pellets makeing you happy and you shoot better for it , go for it , what ever floats your boat, 😂🤣👍
I absolutely agree. These tests were for my own benefit, take from them what you will. 🙂👍
Good point.
You really should be using a powder scale. They are far more accurate.
Thanks, I don't know what that is, I'll have to check it out. 🙂👍
You cannot draw the conclusions you did from such s small number of shots, AND you need to actually measure group size in x and y a nd with calipers not a ruler. 20 shots per group may well give a different result.
101 ways to test things. Thanks for your advice. 🙂👍
Useless (and confusing). We all know that the "marginal" weight differences (within the same pellet model) do not mean all that much, both, in terms of velocity/energy and in terms of accuracy.
However, differences in energy and - especially - in accuracy between different MODELS of pellets, might be (and usually are) significant, even though they weigh the same. As for "distorted" pellets vs "regulars": it depends on the severity of the distortion (and that too is a well-known fact - we didn't need yet another hot water inventing).
To be fair, he didnt use different models of pellets, he used the same model sold under a different name.
(Read my main comment 👍)
Thank you for your insight and personal opinion. Please don't assume "We all know" stuff as it simply isn't true. These were my own results and opinions at the time, other people's may differ. Take care! 🙂👍
@@hftshooter No, by 'we' I mean HFT shooters, it's been done to death.
The thing with being new to something is exactly that, it all seems new to you, you forget folk before you have been doing this for years and their work is easily available on sites like STB and others.
As you progress in the sport you will realise how basic these 'revelations' are....I've been there myself mate!!
All the best.
(I might even reply to a post aimed at me one day...😉😁)
@@hftshooter Try do understand this: if your aim is to inform novices (people who are new to airguns) then this video (these videos of yours) has (have) its (their) purpose. But, in your videos you are addressing people who are involved in HFT and Benchrest, guys VERY MUCH experienced, already, since they came long, long way from their first brakebarrel that they got, say, when they were kids, and have shot thousands of pellets... It's like going to the battlefield in Syria, gathering soldiers from all sides and teaching them a lessson: "Hey, boys, believe it or not, these assault rifles in your hands can kill a human being!"
Why does such a serious person weigh pellets on such crappy chinese scales without any legalization? After all, it is easier to buy Premium pellets from JSB Exact Premium that are already weighed and have a weight of +/- 0.001 g? To weigh such precise masses, you need a scale in minimum class II. I consider the scale test to be distorted and unfortunately incorrect. 50 grams is not a reference.
I'm not alone in using these types of scales to weigh pellets, although I don't currently weigh pellets for competition I use straight from the tin. I agree that the weight reading given may not be super accurate but they do allow pellet to pellet comparison. They allow you to identify pellets that weigh the same and those that are significantly heavier or lighter, so they do serve a purpose. It would be great if all manufacturers provided pellets in a tin with strict weight control, but they don't. Thanks for commenting.
👏👏👏
Thanks. 🙂
Its pronounced vi-rau-ch
🙂👍
@@hftshooterjust yanking your chain, great video although I was confused by the excel table you put up. What was the std deviation figure in reference to?
No problem mate. Standard deviation is how far the worst results deviate from the average, so the smaller the figure the better.
I really do not mean any offence, but your shooting is so randomn its almost meaningless....sorry. (And on a rest as well...😂😂😂)
On another note, the 'W' is pronounced as a 'V'....German manufacturer.
Your test on different labels for same tins is meaningless, because they were all different dies. The rules apply, its the die that matters, not the picture on the tin.
To suggest that different dies having an effect is 'plausible' is nonsense. Its a fact, and you call yourself a HFT shooter???😂
The damaged skirts will have a much different outcome in the wind, as it acts on the pellet .
The head size on a tin is meaningless, we all know this, so unless you measured them yourself, then the difference was, again, the die number only.
Airguns are dynamic things, and to shoot a few pellets then declare a result is, quite frankly, nonsense.
I categorically disagree with you.
Thank you for not being offensive. 😅
Facts have to be supported by solid evidence, something that I've yet to see or experience myself in connection with die numbers. However, you are welcome to your opinion which I respect, and I would never mock you for holding it! Good luck to you. 🙂👍
@@hftshooter There is endless solid evidence from all the respected names in shooting, on a site called 'shooting the breeze' (And others). It really has been done to death, it's not my opinion, it's been tested and discussed, and tested, and discussed ad infinitum!!!
Don't run before you can walk....been there, done that!!😁
Doesn’t the (within reason) damaged skirt expand against the rifling anyway?
Great review. Just shows it’s all in the head . 😆👌🫡🙏
Thanks. You hit on something there. If pellet prep gives you more confidence in your shooting, then go ahead! 🙂👍